451 Stroker II: Bad Factory Machining, Why Horsepower Doesn't Matter, And The Art Of Having Goals
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- Опубліковано 22 бер 2024
- In this video: factory Chrysler engine block machining problems; Mopar big block intake manifold install, fitment and shimming tips; 440 Source adjustable rocker arm setup tips; Mopar big block fuel pump block off modification for EFI; drivetrain component selection; why build a Mopar 451 stroker engine; and much more.
I filmed this video over a year ago, and you haven't seen it because I do something that UA-camrs really shouldn't do: I read all of the comments. I got some crap after my first stroker build video from a knowledgeable engine builder who eviscerated me for not checking or setting the piston pin fit (which my machinist had already done,) and just generally indicting my attitude towards building engines - which is best described as "that seems fine, so it's probably fine." I will let the results I've achieved over the years building Mopar engines speak for themselves. But the bottom line is, if you're only taking your engine building advice from some guy (me, in this case) on UA-cam, you're not doing things the right way. I know that information will come as a shock. Sit down and take a moment if you need to. Maybe scream into a pillow or something. Feel better?
Anyway, those comments made me question my entire life, and I decided that I would wait to release the next part of the engine build series until I heard it run - that way, if there was something horribly wrong, I could fix it off camera, and that guy wouldn't have the satisfaction of being right. (You actually have seen this engine mostly complete and painted in my roller cam conversion video, where I question that entire operation due to its ridiculous cost.) This engine has since run on our engine run stand, the Mopar Or No Cart, and is now installed in the car, which you can also see in a video from @rocketresto here: • Put In Your Engine Lik... .
There are several useful tidbits in this build progress video on the engine, so I have decided to finally release it. The fact that I have no other videos to run today is completely unrelated. - Авто та транспорт
At least no one's criticized the plastic cover used for storage as being the wrong polymer formula :-)
Yet.
LMFAO 😂😂😂
I came here to say “yet” but @lessharratt8719 beat me to it 🤣
I am honored to be a part of this video 😂. May could use some offset dowel pins to move that head up, but it seems every build I have now has some kind of issue with parts new or old. Should be a great engine for that car! Thanks for the shoutout.
Yeah I know I mentioned somebody made the comparison between our builds, but I completely forgot I mentioned it on camera. Haha. The machinist and I talked about that a bit actually. The concern with trying to move the head was that the bolt holes and oil feed were all in the right locations relative to the dowel location, and I don't think the amount of movement we could've gotten away with there would have closed the gap. This seemed to be an elegant solution. Thanks!
Genius.
👍
The Valiant sedan I have had 88K & change on it when the prepping for the Southern Classic run started. We were just going to pop in a mid cam, 4 bbl, dual exhaust...but guess what? A couple cam bearings looked trashy. In order to do the cam bearings, you have to strip the short block down. Well, the machinist called & asked "How did this thing run? How many miles on it? Did someone rebuild this before?" See, the Chrysler machining was so awful that the deck sloped from the front to the rear. The angle of the back 2 cylinders were off by more than 2 degrees, thus it was eating itself. Had to order pistons, but to straighten the mess out, had to put Cometic gaskets at 0.060" just to get the compression ratio down to 9.45-1, and that is with '90-vintage 308 casting heads off a 360 (open chamber) sitting on top. The factory slop was epically horrible
Now before anybody wants to scream about the machinist- you are speaking from your rectum. This guy does machine work for the McCandless family & more, so...in the end, this engine is a fantastic runner that, with 0 shake-down miles, ran 2324.6 miles flawlessly cruising at 'spirited' speeds.
Wow… no, I’m well familiar with that. We have seen it on multiple blocks. One deck on my Demon’s 340 was tipped front to back.
...and people wonder why they nearly disappeared in the late-'70's?@@DeadDodgeGarage
Although we've done a pile of stroker RB builds in the past few years, for the customers who want a bit more HP I feel we've overlooked the "B" stroker builds (499) since the intake manifold is always a compromise in the RB builds due to insufficient hood clearance.
Why 440 Source can't make raised port heads so an RB intake will fit on a low deck is a missed business opportunity.
the comentor voice just makes everything better
I get a kick out of the horsepower junkie know it alls 🤣 yeah you can get 1000 horsepower out of a 4 cylinder Honda if you throw enough turbos on it but it’s not gonna make the right noises for very long.
It's..... amazing the power you can get from one. I still prefer my V-8's, though.
Good old Mopar. Great ideas and engineering, followed by no budget and corner cutting. Still holding true at least as far as my 2014 3.6, and every hemi I have heard ticking.
mopar and great machining dont go together, Chryslers Machining is absolute dog shit compared to any of the other big 2, and the smaller companies, they absolutely suck. and thats coming from someone who owns a 69' charger for a specific reason, and its not cause its a dodge.
Soooo many questions.
Anyone that was working on that block machining line during that era would be in their 70's at least.
Be interesting to see what the line workers knew about problems like this & solving them.
Nice vid. Mopar's do weed out the engine "assemblers" from the engine "builders" lol. I like the 400 based 451 build with alot, for all the advantages you mentioned. I usually line bore the block without turning the crank mains undersize, but i like both options. 440 Source rocks.
Yeah, line boring is a better way to go. Cheaper too.
I too am honored to be a part of this video. Now i went though this very thing on a 71 383 build. We didnt catch it and the intake leaked. So pulled the intake and found the issue on leaking. Then the guy wanted a aluminum intake and after slathering the ports with black poop goop and the corners we torqued the intake down. Ran good problem solved right. Wrong. After a brief test beat it was a little warm and it cooled and talking with the owner with the hood open and he was very pleased we heard a snap. Guess what the intake broke. Passengers side. The bolts where a bitch to start and slight hole mods were made. The guy was super unhappy. Rinse and repeat right. Wrong. I was blamed for over torqueing it. Then we found the head was off on the block. So a meeting was had. I said new block he said please no. I said fine cast original intake and take your chances. Thats what we did and it was never seen again. Every engine sense i check everything and check it again. I think you should do a video on how to spot factor f ups and i can help. They even stamped the blocks with opps marks. QA was not iso 9000 lets put it that way. Like i said i have 2 fixes for this motor so lets chat. ❤
I want to do a larger video on messed up blocks, because I could swear they’re more the norm than the exception. I have seen several myself and have heard of many more. This is probably the best one so far though.
@DeadDodgeGarage let's chat about my 50yrs of weird shit I have seen too.
This why I am an Olds V8 fan. No terrible off factory machining or very rare. Heck I don't know how you get compression with the pistons so fat in the hole on factory Chrysler V8's. Olds didn't have defective parts like flat cams and dying at low miles like 351M/400 Ford. I can still pick up good running Olds 350's from the mid 70's. It doesn't have bottom end issues like their 455. The lousy nylon cam gear is their Achilles heel. Their have been more issues with aftermarket go fast stuff than factory machining on Olds V8's. Chrysler has come a long way, I am at nearly 140,000 km on my Go Green 2017 Dodge Challenger GT AWD. Just a horn and hairline cracked ZF 8 speed pan so far. Zero of the 3.6 Pentastar issues, so much better than the oil burning 3.5 POS V6 in our last Challenger. I get 40+ mpg highway Imperial in the Summer, mid 30's Winter and mid 20's pulling the boat the lake. Imagine that sight😊
For some coffee!
Love your videos, I’ve learned a lot.
And they offer me some comfort after yelling ant throwing tools at my 77 Dodge rv.
Thank you! I really appreciate it. And I’m happy to help. I try to keep most of my yelling and tool throwing out of the videos - it’s a family show, after all. Haha.
Ha!
Pro tip, the intake and the head have to reside in the same zip code for it to bolt together
Beverly Hills 90210
As someone who has worked on a assembly line we'd frequently say fuck it send it
GM ?
Did you know that Chrysler didn't machine the deck square to the crank bore? I found that out back in college while machining a 70 340 block. I was just going to skim the decks to make sure they were flat. That went out the window when the first cut of the mill only touched the surface for the first two inches of deck surface.
Oh… I am well aware. I know of two 340 blocks on which the machine shop found one bank was notably tipped - one top to bottom, and one front to back.
Thank you for another great video.
Thank you four your courage!
I recall putting on a vintage edelbrock CH4B and it having a less than stellar fit. It was a full rebuild. Been on there for years but this video has me thinking.
What a mess to deal with. But if anyone can figure it out, it's you. Good luck!
Tolerance stacking from the parts cannon.... Good content....helps out a lot....thank you
Good observation on the bolt drilling placement
Interesting catch, from now on I'll look at one more thing before I build another B or RB engine.
This appears to be a very nice lowdeck Engine combo !
Good eye, great catch. Thanks for the tips, and thanks for the great video. An older DDG video is better than no DDG video!
I have paused your video to comment as I watch at 1am on the east side of Australia. Why, you ask. Because you spoke one of the most SENSIBLE sentences that I have heard out loud from the 'improved performance' engine crowd in decades. For street use, do I really want 850 HP @ one gazillion RPM? Hell no. Do I want a shipload of torque at engine speeds that allow me to just gently press the 'power pedal' & safely pull out & pass at normal highway speeds? Damn right I do.
Do I want to cruise at highway speed with my engine is ticking over at a lazy engine speed knowing my nice fat & flat torque curve is going to give me strong pulling performance across a wide RPM range? What do you think.
I want my 325 Dodge Hemi to start easy, idle [relatively] smoothly, run sweetly with dual quad Carter AFB's, get acceptable mileage, live long [& prosper?] & pull hard when needed at regular cruising speeds. A good fat & flat torque curve delivers, peaky horsepower doesn't. Works for me.
PS The factory machining on my 57 Hemi was 99.5% perfect.
Yes! Exactly that. People have been so bamboozled by big horsepower numbers that don’t tell the whole story. An engine that makes zero power until 2500 RPM isn’t going to be that great in a street car. It will be interesting to see what the machine shop finds in my 315 Hemi block.
Thanks for another great video!
They make offset dowel pins to move the heads and gaskets around a bit. On motors like Fords and BB Chevies, (and I suppose LS) you can actually move the valves a bit to unshrowd the intake.... (or exhaust if you think that will help). Most machine shops remove the dowel before they surface/square the block.
I realize that, and we looked at the possibility. I don’t think enough offset to fix this would be possible without moving the head so far that the bolts no longer align with their holes. The gasket-as-a-shim fix seems to be working fine so far.
Rocket industries is a Australian company thanks for the great video Jamie 🇦🇺
Well... who woulda thunk. That's a new one for me.
Thanks as always.
That block must of been machined on a Monday or a Friday
Good EYE my friend. Now we learned even more from the Natural!!!
Jamie that motor will feel a hell of a lot faster on the street then one that makes big power with a big cam.
Exactly!
I have this problem in the opposite direction. Head to high on passenger side of the engine. Gaskets would be no problem. I have Valve to piston clearance problems, intake valve radius too close to valves pocket! Driver's side is fine, yes switched heads, checked pistons etc. It's the dowels too high up the deck on mine.
Glad I checked both sides, had I just done number 1 cyl the passenger intake valves would have had bad days ahead.
Getting pretty creative shimmering your way around the problem. I'd have said something very profane and followed the machinist's advice. After breaking the intake of course. Seems to me Dad used to say check everything too. And never force anything. Stop and figure out what's wrong. He'd have loved your channel.
Uncle Tony's Garage has covered this subject as well, specifically about cylinder heads
Well said Jamie not every application benefits from the maximum HP and a street driven car is a prime example of big cam and big power equals no fun to drive on the street. There are plenty of nice sounding thumping cams that keep the power in the lower rpm range so that you can live with them on the street cruising around.
Exactly! There is a bit of an art to component selection. I need to talk a lot more about that.
Gotta love good old Chrysler quality
Not how I would expect/hope for a new build to go. Good eye Jamie.
Look at those sweet sweet subscriber numbers.
Hey Jamie you ever heard of offset dowel pins get a set you'll love it turn the block upside down put the heads on see where they line up the best select the right dowel pin install it you're done problem solved
I have, yes. As I’ve discussed in other comment replies, as far off as this is, I don’t think we could move the head enough and still install head bolts.
the small gaskets I read are for use when using and aluminum intake.
The only engine I’ve previous had them on - and the one that had a horrid vacuum leak - had an aluminum intake. I reinstalled the aluminum intake without them and all was well. I have installed countless aluminum big block manifolds with the pan alone and it has always worked well for me. So I have to wonder why.
That would be my luck also. Get a shiny new toy and it is broken right out of the box. I can't count how many times that has happened. It took forever to find a transmission for my truck because every transmission they tried to sell me was a used rebuilt that was shot. Now I just need to own a oil refinery to put gas in it so I can drive it. It's loud and has a V10 and that's as probably as close to owning a Viper as I'll ever get🤠
Rocket Automotive used to sell slot style wheels in the 70s.
I’ve seen them!
Nothings ever easy is it Jamie? 😉
Good vid though!
Never 😅
You forgot to mention 361-383-400 B-block is 1 inch narrower on each side so it has more room to change spark plug's and better fit on header's.
I did mention that they fit better and have more room to work. Didn’t I? Well, if I forgot it this time, it’s something I have talked about a lot.
The machinist was dead on, chuck the block in storage and try again. At least you have the factory numbers matching handy. The fix for this problem is straightforward albeit expensive, provided of course the cylinders are properly aligned. (probably the same cost as doing a whole different block all over again so its a 50-50)... One would have to bore ever single hole on that bank, plug them all, and rebore+tap all new holes and dowels. Another option is overbore the holes in an offset but thats only if the holes are off a tiny bit... these look like a full 1/8" down.
Sad times :(
The head gasket did not overhang the bores, so while the holes are off 1/16” or more, I was satisfied that there would be no head sealing issue. This engine is already up and running and installed in the car. Using the paper gasket as a shim for the intake worked just fine.
@@DeadDodgeGarageOnly issue with that turned out to be a blessing in disguise i bet... your pushrod geometry was pulled inboard more and got them off the exhaust manifold side of the head a little?
edit: the pushrods stay in the same spot, its the heads that move downward pulling away from them. (just wanted to clarify).
That china wall was certainly machined on an angle. How in the heck did the factory seal it? Good video 😊
The China wall is straight. All of the machined holes in the deck surface are in the wrong place. When I set the head gasket on the dowels, it became very obvious. And as far as how the factory sealed it… I have no idea, but I’m very curious.
Some how it made it through QC,and into production, that sucks. However, finding was to make it work, priceless.
Oh, I suspect they found it..
What QC⁉️
Low decks also have the advantage of shorter/lighter /stiffer pushrods which equates to less work the springs need to do which equates to better stability at higher rpm. 440 looks cooler, but the 400 is better in every other way.
Yes, give me lots of torque for the street please, streetable/balanced the way to go.
Bingo!
Wow, and I thought I had seen damn near anything conceivable in the V8 engine building realm, Doesn’t it feel good to be one in 10 million With a problem like that?!
Lucky you :) and of course, it has to involve a customer build not one of your own :(
I’ll tell you right now… In Chrysler world, this ain’t one in a million. I haven’t seen this particular goof before, but messed up block machining of one kind or another is practically the norm.
Ya know, Jamie, I sometimes wonder if the old DC 4.15 stroker crank was designed to be used in a 440 block, with FACTORY STOCK 400 RODS & PISTONS! The 400 rods are .410 shorter, but the 4.15" stroke is .400 longer! But I don't know about the pin heights, and I dunno is the 400 piston skirts will clear the crank counterweights. Your thoughts?
Very interesting, but I really don’t know enough about that setup to say. This 451 is the only stroker I’ve had any involvement in so far. I’ve spent just about all of my time on relatively lame stock engines. Haha.
Amazing 30 plus years ago I rebuilt a big block for somebody's 1970 charger 500 and when I put the head gaskets on the block that's what I saw I wondered about that I just went ahead and used a bunch of RTV where the intake met them points of the block and the head and put it together didn't think any more about it up until now that is very interesting
In the aspect of shoddy factory machining, exactly what was the cylinder chamfering guy smoking when he was machining the blocks? I guess the piston installer guy must have yelled at him in regards to how hard it was to get the piston rings past the deck of the blocks, and so decided to do a nice 7/32" chamfer on EVERY block.
I dunno, I’ve seen some that seem to have no chamfer at all… they certainly can’t be praised for their consistency.
If I was the company that did the OOPS on the block I would be pissed. For 1 ,That a mistake like that left my shop. 2 Thousands of people are going to see this mistake on your channel. Don't say it's no big deal ! How would you like someone showing the world one of your screw ups ? Things like this should never end up in the end users shop. I know I wouldn't like receiving that part and I wouldn't like it plastered all over the internet if it were my mistake.
That’s why I said specifically that it wasn’t 440 Source’s fault… it was Chrysler’s production line machining operation that made the boo-boo.
Stroker? You stroke ‘er, you brought ‘er home
That gasket was NLA - no longer awesome
Nice, nice 🤣
HAHAHA!
I spent decades in various machine shops, and I used to joke about Chrysler buying their tooling from Ford and GM's scrap tooling.
I still have a preference for Ford of the muscle era. Anymore though I'm just an American iron guy.
Funny how Ford and Mopar guys have a sort of brother like relationship.
Oh the days gone by...
I told my niece yesterday, that she would live long enough to witness the time when it will be common knowledge that this period represents the epitome of societal insanity...
Chrysler had brilliant engineers, who had great intentions when they drew up these engines. Unfortunately, the components were then cast, machined and assembled by… trained monkeys? I don’t know, but as a Chrysler engine specialist, I’ve seen some stuff. How about rods that were factory machined with the bearing tang reliefs and oil squirter on the wrong sides, such that when they are installed the rod is actually backwards? Deck surfaces tilted every way but the right one. The obscene core shift in cylinder heads. And now this…
If it were my call. The simplest fix would be to have offset dowels made, locktite them in place and if necessary overbore the head bolt holes in the head.
so from now on you have to bring jauge to verify if it's a monday or friday block ? Outch
Add more cubes, then that cam, and go to a stick
Not this time. Lol.
Nothing like building a custom engine…
You know... I was thinking about this last night. When you set the stock factory head on the block and it had such bad alignment, how did that not leak from the factory? That thing would have leaked either vacuum and/or oil so bad...the first owner would have had to have it replaced under warranty when he got the car new. I’m surprised that block didn’t end up in a scrap pile early on.
Hopefully the head gasket isn't hanging into the bore.....
It’s not - I checked. But I absolutely had the same concern, and given that this is just about the largest bore to be found in one of these blocks, it was close.
I was a Mechanic in the 1970s, and a bracket racer. Chrysler was the 3rd rate OEM, and AMC was at the bottom so to speak. We used to laugh hilariously at the sound those old starters made, and I know other guys who said the exact same thing and they laughed massively at this guy who had a dart that made that silly ass sound. Dodge trucks have always been notoriously cheap except for maybe the 19060s models, but even worse many of them are terminally ugly. We are not in the age of Aries, so all the Ram symbology is anachroistic and stupid. Sadly the old Engineers at Chrysler created some fine results and innovation, but such days are gone. The new Dodge truck have gotten less unsightly, suprisingly so. Everything is over engineered and OVER AUOTMATED. The air bag suspension is idiotic.
Don’t forget, they’re not even called Dodge trucks anymore. They had made Dodge trucks for damn near a century, but that wasn’t good enough anymore - so they’re just RAMs now. Anyway, you go ahead and laugh hilariously at the starter sounds - but the constant comments I get on my videos that read approximately “I love that old starter sound!” tell the rest of the story. It’s unfortunate that Chrysler’s quality was in the toilet for so long. They had brilliant engineering and great ideas, but all that really went to hell in the 70s and I’m not sure it ever came back.
👍🏻🇦🇺
Anyone who hasn't shared this experience is lying. No matter the manufacturer. Unfortunately, inspect everything and make no assumptions.
I couldn’t agree more.
silicone corners
Always - but that’s not going to fix the humongous gap.
N.E.W. never ever worked
Well, it's called malaise fer a reason witch I'm too lazy & stupid t'bother lookin up....
😅
My life is a dated video… :/
In all seriousness this is a helpful video. Gracias Haime!
Cool video rocket also makes awesome wheels back in the day the wheels were as cool ss creggers Machining Mayhem I seen it many times when I worked at machine shops crazy Factory screw-ups have a great day
I learned about Rocket brand wheels in the year between making this video and releasing it. I almost cut in a clip to say so, but decided that was too much work. Haha.
Bolt on never is...
Do not say biggest stroke again please. My sophomoric brain can’t take it. I’ve already said it at work 4 times this morning. A talk with HR is around the corner.
I laughed way too hard at this 🤣
Haha that is funny