UPDATE: There IS a version of the PCS program that does NOT require an Extron Insider account or a sign in found here: www.dimedtec.de/downloads/Extron/PCS/ Be sure to download the first option, FW 4.7.1 as the latest version requires a sign in. This is a HUGE DEAL, as long as the link is up, anyone can use this method for downscaling. Thank you @iamfearlezz for your update on the DSC 301 HD. I clearly need to work on my googling skills. UPDATE 2: Turning on AFL in the output settings drops the lag for progressive inputs to a steady 17msec and 33msec for interlaced. Thank you @ShankMods
Wow thanks for this video! I bought an Extron DVS 605 AD a while back as a means to output both HDMI and HD-SDI simultaneously, however I had no idea about it's downscaling with custom EDID timings! I have the Extron Product Software Configuration, but will need to track down the EDID Manager. Just like yourself, I went through two of these units as one was DOA. Finding the 605 AD was a bit more uncommon than I thought. It is a rather flexible output unit and glad to see more use come out of it. I'll have to put mine through it's paces. I also share your sentiments on how the road for finding a great downscaler is a hard one. I had a hoard of downscalers just sitting in my closet, but thanks to these videos, I'm sure you are making it easier for all of us. Thanks again for all your insights and reviews!
@@Ex_Savior Thanks Ex_Savior! We were on parallel journeys with downscaling, you had more sense than me and called it a day a little sooner haha I’m sure your wallet is thankful. These DVS’s do seem fragile and I know others that also had half functioning units. You should be fine to flash the 240p EDID I linked in the description without the EDID Manager. The Manager lets you configure the file or make a new one but it’ll otherwise work without tweaking. Just like the IN1606, I had to use an Extron RGB Interface to combine HV sync to the PVM, otherwise passively combining sync with a simple transistor-resistor circuit has scrambled sync. Thought I’d mention if you were thinking of using the HDMI output for simultaneous 240p. I’m glad you found it useful, I don’t expect this method will appeal to the masses given the exclusivity of the PCS program which I couldn’t find on archive either. Just reach out if you have any trouble with this method and I’ll be glad to help
Ive been lurking for a few videos. Im still using the corio2 despite having random sizing issues occasionally. Its usually only a few minutes of headache to fix whatever is going on. This series has definitely kept me from spending too much money as well as helped refine my search for anything better, thank you for saving my wallet. I am excited for the crt emudriver episode. Thank you for everything. I originally thought this series was going to be a one off and never would have thought it was going to go this far. You've been mentioned all over the internet since then and its pretty awesome to see your transformation to downscaling master, although your videos on color correction and calibration are also top shelf.
@@hunterrichert4329 thank you so so much for those very kind words. I’m just as surprised as you how far it’s gone but it’s a joy getting to test all these scalers and methods. It’s been hella expensive but getting to pass on the info and read that it’s helped someone make their informed decision, that’s priceless. I think I’m coming full circle to the Corio2 and I may switch between the tvONE 750 and the OSSC Pro in the setup. I love that the Pro just works and is so seamless to use, but also love the Corio2’s smoothing. I’ll take my time with CRTEmudriver as I want to get it done right but it’ll come eventually. Thanks again my friend!
Dude awesome stuff! I attempted to get this working but never had any luck. Did try enabling AFL? Iirc, it removes the rolling buffer by locking the input frame rate to the output framerate. Should drop it down to 16ms fixed, at least that's what it did for the dsc 301
Thanks Shanks! Maan you’re totally right I checked lag and it’s about 17msec for all progressive inputs and 33msec for interlaced. I ran the Wii’s 240p test suite in 480p to make sure it didn’t mess with the vertical frequency in/out and saw no frame stutter/skips in the scroll tests. This method gets better and better, thanks again!
Thank you so much for this series! I am incredibly impressed by the number of devices you've been able to cover over the past 16 episodes. Have you compiled a spreadsheet that documents all the downscalers you've covered in one place? If not, would you be interested in having either that or a downscalers wiki made?
@@TheGamingSiri thank you!! There is a downscaling section on RetroRGB that summarises the findings and there is a table on the main page that outlines all the important stuff for each method www.retrorgb.com/downscaling.html I understand that anyone new to downscaling would find this overwhelming and daunting so once I wrap up on the last few scalars and methods then I will do a final video to summarise them in categories like affordable and accessible, 240p and 480i output and so on
@@TheWammbo Ciao! I’m concurrently working on 2 projects but not really at the stage of capturing footage. CRTEmudriver is one of those and I’m still gathering software as the PC is a fresh build and I’m new to the ecosystem of Steam and Retroarch on a PC and there’s quite a lot to download. I’m almost at the stage of setting 15KHz output, but another scaler just fell into my lap; the original MIMO Genius Box! I’m having a lot of issues with it so I’m troubleshooting to get a stable image and flipping between the 2 projects. It might be several weeks to a month before either turn into a completed video. I know CRTEmudriver has been highly requested so that may be first. Thanks for checking in and for the kind words ❤️
I really enjoyed this series on downscaling and at the same time I learned a couple of things. Is this series really about to end? It happens that you explain very well, I would say that you are the best at explaining this niche matter.
@@Oversoulse7en Thank you! I think I’ve explored most known methods for 240p output. There will surely be more scalers like the Tetra Vio that are capable of custom timings, it’s just not viable to plough through every suspected scaler and turn up with a low yield. But also like the Tetra Vio, if someone in the community has verified it to output 240p then I’ll look into it and the Downscaling Chronicles will sporadically continue. We’ve collectively got what we needed out of it; to see what each unit is capable of in merits of downscaling and determine if an obtainable scaler is fit for one’s setup. Thank you for following the journey ❤️
@@MagisterHamid the process for me was to send an online application and wait for a call in the coming days. It helps to have a ,org or .edu email, then they asked what my uses were for the Extron devices and why I needed access ie. firmware updates, and the want to be sure you’re not going to distribute they’re software, and that was it. There’s a 2011 disc on archive but it doesn’t have the PCS software. Some of their newer software requires a login for authentication anyway
@MagisterHamid I actually have that scaler but it’s completely dead so I never got to test it. It has RGB and HDMI in but only HDMI out, so it probably wouldn’t take the 240p EDID file directly and would need its own custom EDID.bin for HDMI output. Both the DVS 605 and IN1606’s HDMI output needed a powered RGB interface to combine HV sync from the HDMI to VGA DAC so that’s a slight annoyance. Some reason it had a scrambled image when using a passive HV sync combining circuit. It doesn’t have a status LCD and navigation would rely on the OSD like the IN1606 which was difficult to read and navigate in 240p. They’re very compact though, but I feel like the DVS 605 is more ideal as it has the status LCD and RGB output.
@MagisterHamid @MarcoRetro316 The DSC 301 HD was actually the unit that I used to verify the 240p EDID after Marco released his first video on the Extrons. I haven't verified yet if it can downscale to 480i but 240p looks very clean and should be comparable to both the IN 1606 and the DVS 605 as shown. I'd definitely recommend the DSC 301 HD, not only for its downscaling but for its sheer versatility. I don't recall having to make any particular adjustments to the EDID. I did however bump VTotal to 263 lines since the preexisting EDID doesn't have any vertical blanking. That might be inconsequential on consumer CRT but with a professional monitor the image is then drawn right beneath the raster lines. Here's some additional information that I wrote over at Shmups: - The DSC's frame lock mode (AFL) guarantees 1 frame of lag regardless of input and output resolution, which means the DSC is a constant 16ms downscaler. - You don't need an Extron Insider account or the proprietary EDID Manager software. Any EDID editor will do, and the older PCS software that's compatible with the DSC is readily available online to download. Pretty sure it can still be found in said Shmups forum thread. - Selecting a default 240p preset within a 1920x240 resolution is essentially a four button configuration. Menu -> Preset -> Enter -> Select preset -> Enter. The DSC offers extensive picture controls.
@@IamFearLezzThanks again for verifying! I never found the PCS online that didn’t require a login but I probably needed to look harder. I can’t seem to pin your comment but I’ll update something in the description. Thanks so much once again!
I’ve looked into that scaler, come to think of it they were your videos I was watching not too long ago! It doesn’t seem to output 240p and outputs as low as 480i. There’s lots of really competent scalers that will also output 480i but I’ve got to keep a focus of 240p as those are the rare gems, otherwise I’d never feasibly be able to feature all the best 480i-only downscalers. Unless, you’ve found a way to output 240p from the VP-703SC?
I hate to make your job harder, but if you want to cover every downscaler, you may want to look into the Spatz Multiscale. For some odd reason I found one here in the USA though I think it is a German device. It also only scales down to 480i, so maybe not within the scope of the series, but just wanted to let you know.
@@robine I appreciated and welcome all suggestions! I’ll look into it in case it can output 240p by a custom res. There’s a lot of really competent devices that output as low as 480i but there’s realistically too many to cover.
I’ve pasted a reply to a similar question about the DSC 301 HD: I actually have that scaler but it’s completely dead so I never got to test it. It has RGB and HDMI in but only HDMI out, so it probably wouldn’t take the 240p EDID file directly and would need its own custom EDID.bin for HDMI output. Both the DVS 605 and IN1606’s HDMI output needed a powered RGB interface to combine HV sync from the HDMI to VGA DAC so that’s a slight annoyance. Some reason it sped a scrambled image when using a passive HV sync combining circuit. It doesn’t have a stairs LCD and navigation would rely on the OSD like the IN1606 which was difficult to read and navigate in 240p. They’re very compact though, but I feel like the DVS 605 is more ideal as it has the status LCD and RGB output.
@@MarcoRetro316 Thanks mate. I've been following your downscale journey since over a year. Been greatly enjoying it. I dont want it to end and I hope there are more obscure 240p downscalers out there :-) I'm surprised there wasnt anything from the Kramer brand?
@ thanks for sticking with me! If there’s any other scaler that crop up then I’ll gladly feature them. I looked into the Kramer scalers and there was nothing I found that told me any of them could output 240p with certainty, so it would be a gamble for me to keep buying up scalers with no payoff if they only output 480i
I have been unable to get this to work with a DSC 301 HD, fwiw. I have used the v4.7.1 PCS software and successfully uploaded the premade .bin, but no display will not accept the output from the DSC 301. I have tried direct hdmi to a flat panel and known working DACs for component and to RGB with the appropriate 470ohm resistor. If there's a secret to actually get a DSC to function, it would be cool to know. Otherwise, I wonder if it is just an assumption, that it would work on the 301? Maybe I am also doing something wrong in the PCS, but it seems fairly straight forward...
@@pdiggitydogg @iamfearlezz was able to get it working on the 301. On both the IN1606 and DVS 605 I had to run the HDMI output through an Extron RGB interface in order to get stable sync. The chain would be DSC 301>HDMI DAC>Extron RGB Interface>CRT. Is the output going into a consumer TV or a professional monitor?
@@MarcoRetro316 I hadn't thought of that. I'll dig out one of the RGB units and retry it! Thanks for the help! End unit will be a consumer crt, with properly adjusted sync
@ also, if your tv is factory scart RGB then it won’t be getting blanking voltage to switch into RGB unless you have a device that introduces its own voltage to scart pin 16
@@MarcoRetro316 It works! Thank you for the help with the layout. Adding the Extron RGB 203 Rxi was the solution. Since my SCART is a mux mod, I don't have blanking and just transcoded the RGB to component. Fiddling with the image sizing resulted in an absolutely serviceable picture! I haven't done any lag testing but some quick play shows it's totally usable to me. THANK YOU
Awesome!! So glad you got it working. I’m not sure you have this setting under the Output menu there might be a Genlock/AFL option, if it’s set to On then it should make the lag stable at only 16msec (thanks again to ShankMods for pointing it out). It’s still plenty acceptable if it’s off though
Finally you are showing NDS games after all my nagging 😅 Anyhow would you say that this is one of the better downscaler? Having HDMI input is a huge benefit as I see it.
lol I was just thinking the other day as I saw the Wii U all boxed up in my cupboard that I have to give DS emulation a try. Maybe I’ll have time to set it up by the time the Morph 4K is ready, no promises though. If there were an Extron scaler that could output 240p with this method AND has 480i output then I’d highly recommend. But the Corio2’s and OSSC Pro are still my top recommendations
@ but in the case of use cases how big of a problem is that 480i to 240p adds additional lag? The only console I can think of with a vast 480i library is PS2. Both Xbox and GC is mostly 480p. Btw check out some of the Castlevania games on NDS. They are like made for being played in 240p on a CRT.
@@MarcoRetro316Ola, teria como fazer um video do Corio2 numa tv de consumidor 4:3 ? E sobre esse DVS 605 A posso fazer esse método sem o software do Extron ? Ultima perfunta kkkk, esse Extron seria possível ligar o PS5 numa Sony Xbr 800 Wide ?
@@MagisterHamid It’s subjective and I may not speak for everyone but I don’t feel the lag is noticeable. I kind of found out once I discovered my LCD projector had 3 frames of lag and I never found it game-breaking. When I was making the first downscaling video on the Corio2, I was going to have a longer segment dedicated to lag which looked at a bunch of academic studies to determine what the threshold of lag is noticeable enough to ruin the enjoyment. It would’ve been drawn out and boring so I didn’t add it but I’m pretty sure the general consensus was over 60msec to be noticeable but there’s outliers to consider like tournament participants, which I’m sure they’d be much more on tune and prone a frame of lag, though that’s likely the minority. It’s worth knowing the lag is there though, in the event someone sensitive to lag wants to use the DVS as a composite/S-Video transcoder for their non-RGB consoles like the 3DO. TL;DR: I think 3 frames of lag is *probably* ok for most
@@finalboss5545 I can’t guarantee but I might be able to make a short video once I’m done with CRTEmudriver. You will need the PCS program to upload the 240p EDID.bin unfortunately. You should be able to scale a PS5 to an HD display with one of these Extrons but the Extron is probably unnecessary, unless you want it for picture controls. You may need an HDCP stripper in the middle, I don’t have a PS5 to test
Hello, friends. Can someone share some info and knowledge on this? So, I recently bought a Pandora Box 58s and also a newer retro gaming stick - the X2 Plus. Also acquired 2 CRT TV sets (only tested one - a Philips, so far). But since they - the retro consoles only output in 720p resolution, it seems that there are no scanlines and I'm quite displeased with the image quality (maybe it's the CRT TV's fault?). Guess they - the retro game consoles - have some bilinear filtering and all, but I still can't get an image that resembles that of old retro games on the CRTs. I mostly want to play 8 and 16 / 24 bit games, like for the NES, SNES and especially Arcade / MAME games. And I want to buy the OSSC Pro in order to reduce the Output resolution from my retro consoles from 720p to the original 240p on the old CRT TV models. So...this is my Question: Do you think the OSSC PRO will help improve the image quality and the scanlines effects on the CRTs in a 240p resolution for these types of games? And I wonder if that Bilinear filtering in the consoles games will be an issue, also? Thanks for your time.
@@GABRIELX_ASMR There’s a few things to consider. Firstly, how are you getting the 720p output into your CRT? It must be an HD CRT or a PC CRT. If I’m misunderstanding and they are consumer TV’s, do they have RGB/component inputs? If not and you downscale to 240p with any device apart from an Extron Emotia, then you’ll need a transcoder as well to go from RGB/Component to Composite/S-Video. Then OSSC Pro will work to downscale from 720p to 240p though if the Pandora has a bi-linear filter you’d hope it can be turned off. You’d also hope that the Pandora is integer upscaling, because of not and once it’s downscaled then there may be shimmer present. The OSSC Pro is pretty intuitive to change the scaling so it might be able to alleviate vertical shimmer to some degree if it is present. Personally, I would emulate with a PC and look into CRTEmudriver, or a raspberry Pi4 and RecalBox CRT with the CRTDual hat for RGBs, otherwise a Pi4 can output composite with a 3.5mm TRRS to RCA breakout. But then you would be buying into a new ecosystem and you have already invested into the Pandora. If you want a cheaper down scaler then the one featured in this video might be found cheaper than the OSSC Pro and the software to program it with 240p is still hosted by another site that doesn’t require a login which I linked to in the description.
@@MarcoRetro316 Thanks for responding. Right now I'm using an HDMI to SCART adapter, then the SCART goes into my CRT TV. Unfortunately, I didn't see any way to turn off that bilinear filtering. OK, I might try the PC and CRT Emudriver method. Will also look into your video and explanations. Just did a quick test with MAME on my PC and was able to do a pretty good job with it and those HLSL effects (think they're called that), but the problem with MAME is that many of the old roms won't work with these newer versions. Thanks again for your input.
@@MarcoRetro316 So, the OSSC PRO or another downscaler could fix this, right, M.R? By the way, great job with these series, man. Saw a lot of your past videos. Keep it up!
@IonutGabrielSpinu thanks! Yep the OSSC Pro will downscale 720p to 240p just fine by decimation. That’s what I was getting at, if the Pandora hasn’t integer upscaled to 720p, the decimated downscale *could* have shimmer. A line-blending downscaler will be a touch softer but more forgiving of bad upscaling. Here’s a table that shows all other Downscalers that can take a 720p input admin.retrorgb.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/DS-Table-Simplified.png
It’s not on the PCS compatibility list. I recently linked to a no-sign in PCS that you could try and see if it recognises your scaler. I had a read through the IN1508 and there’s a slim chance 240p might be programmed on the unit or through the Extron SIS software. Might be worth a shot but I wouldn’t get my hopes up
Maybe it is not "downscaling", but a couple of years ago I got my GTX 1080 to output 240p "natively" to 2 PVMs simultaneously (only to check how the 3DS emulator worked on 2 crts, one crt for displaying each 3DS screen). It was really tricky but the results were... well, they were. Also I sent cyberpunk 2077 to my pvm (240p) , unplayable.
Never even heard of such device until you mentioned. Seems to be an Android OS emulation device. While I won’t be testing it out, how well it can be downscaled depends if the content is integer upscaled or not and if it can output a pre-enough resolution for these scalers to interpret. If you haven’t alert bought one I’d get a PC and output 15KHz with switchres, or a RP4 with RecalboxCRT or equivalent OS
UPDATE: There IS a version of the PCS program that does NOT require an Extron Insider account or a sign in found here: www.dimedtec.de/downloads/Extron/PCS/
Be sure to download the first option, FW 4.7.1 as the latest version requires a sign in. This is a HUGE DEAL, as long as the link is up, anyone can use this method for downscaling. Thank you @iamfearlezz for your update on the DSC 301 HD. I clearly need to work on my googling skills.
UPDATE 2: Turning on AFL in the output settings drops the lag for progressive inputs to a steady 17msec and 33msec for interlaced. Thank you @ShankMods
Wow thanks for this video! I bought an Extron DVS 605 AD a while back as a means to output both HDMI and HD-SDI simultaneously, however I had no idea about it's downscaling with custom EDID timings! I have the Extron Product Software Configuration, but will need to track down the EDID Manager.
Just like yourself, I went through two of these units as one was DOA. Finding the 605 AD was a bit more uncommon than I thought. It is a rather flexible output unit and glad to see more use come out of it. I'll have to put mine through it's paces.
I also share your sentiments on how the road for finding a great downscaler is a hard one. I had a hoard of downscalers just sitting in my closet, but thanks to these videos, I'm sure you are making it easier for all of us.
Thanks again for all your insights and reviews!
@@Ex_Savior Thanks Ex_Savior! We were on parallel journeys with downscaling, you had more sense than me and called it a day a little sooner haha I’m sure your wallet is thankful. These DVS’s do seem fragile and I know others that also had half functioning units. You should be fine to flash the 240p EDID I linked in the description without the EDID Manager. The Manager lets you configure the file or make a new one but it’ll otherwise work without tweaking. Just like the IN1606, I had to use an Extron RGB Interface to combine HV sync to the PVM, otherwise passively combining sync with a simple transistor-resistor circuit has scrambled sync. Thought I’d mention if you were thinking of using the HDMI output for simultaneous 240p.
I’m glad you found it useful, I don’t expect this method will appeal to the masses given the exclusivity of the PCS program which I couldn’t find on archive either. Just reach out if you have any trouble with this method and I’ll be glad to help
Ive been lurking for a few videos. Im still using the corio2 despite having random sizing issues occasionally. Its usually only a few minutes of headache to fix whatever is going on. This series has definitely kept me from spending too much money as well as helped refine my search for anything better, thank you for saving my wallet. I am excited for the crt emudriver episode. Thank you for everything. I originally thought this series was going to be a one off and never would have thought it was going to go this far. You've been mentioned all over the internet since then and its pretty awesome to see your transformation to downscaling master, although your videos on color correction and calibration are also top shelf.
@@hunterrichert4329 thank you so so much for those very kind words. I’m just as surprised as you how far it’s gone but it’s a joy getting to test all these scalers and methods. It’s been hella expensive but getting to pass on the info and read that it’s helped someone make their informed decision, that’s priceless. I think I’m coming full circle to the Corio2 and I may switch between the tvONE 750 and the OSSC Pro in the setup. I love that the Pro just works and is so seamless to use, but also love the Corio2’s smoothing. I’ll take my time with CRTEmudriver as I want to get it done right but it’ll come eventually. Thanks again my friend!
Excited for both crt emudriver and morph 4k to come! And stellar job as always
Thanks! Hopefully CRT Emu isn’t too involved to setup
well it is cheaper that's for sure 😂
Another gem of an episode! Also nice to see a sneak preview of what’s left to come!
The end is near! Thank you kindly as always my friend 🙏
Dude awesome stuff! I attempted to get this working but never had any luck. Did try enabling AFL? Iirc, it removes the rolling buffer by locking the input frame rate to the output framerate. Should drop it down to 16ms fixed, at least that's what it did for the dsc 301
Thanks Shanks! Maan you’re totally right I checked lag and it’s about 17msec for all progressive inputs and 33msec for interlaced. I ran the Wii’s 240p test suite in 480p to make sure it didn’t mess with the vertical frequency in/out and saw no frame stutter/skips in the scroll tests. This method gets better and better, thanks again!
Thank you so much for this series! I am incredibly impressed by the number of devices you've been able to cover over the past 16 episodes. Have you compiled a spreadsheet that documents all the downscalers you've covered in one place? If not, would you be interested in having either that or a downscalers wiki made?
@@TheGamingSiri thank you!! There is a downscaling section on RetroRGB that summarises the findings and there is a table on the main page that outlines all the important stuff for each method
www.retrorgb.com/downscaling.html
I understand that anyone new to downscaling would find this overwhelming and daunting so once I wrap up on the last few scalars and methods then I will do a final video to summarise them in categories like affordable and accessible, 240p and 480i output and so on
Hi Marco, when can we expect the next video from you? I really hope it is about the CRT emu dirver ;) best regards.. love your videos
@@TheWammbo Ciao! I’m concurrently working on 2 projects but not really at the stage of capturing footage. CRTEmudriver is one of those and I’m still gathering software as the PC is a fresh build and I’m new to the ecosystem of Steam and Retroarch on a PC and there’s quite a lot to download. I’m almost at the stage of setting 15KHz output, but another scaler just fell into my lap; the original MIMO Genius Box! I’m having a lot of issues with it so I’m troubleshooting to get a stable image and flipping between the 2 projects. It might be several weeks to a month before either turn into a completed video. I know CRTEmudriver has been highly requested so that may be first. Thanks for checking in and for the kind words ❤️
I really enjoyed this series on downscaling and at the same time I learned a couple of things. Is this series really about to end? It happens that you explain very well, I would say that you are the best at explaining this niche matter.
@@Oversoulse7en Thank you! I think I’ve explored most known methods for 240p output. There will surely be more scalers like the Tetra Vio that are capable of custom timings, it’s just not viable to plough through every suspected scaler and turn up with a low yield. But also like the Tetra Vio, if someone in the community has verified it to output 240p then I’ll look into it and the Downscaling Chronicles will sporadically continue. We’ve collectively got what we needed out of it; to see what each unit is capable of in merits of downscaling and determine if an obtainable scaler is fit for one’s setup. Thank you for following the journey ❤️
How does one access that developer database if you are not an insider?
@@MagisterHamid the process for me was to send an online application and wait for a call in the coming days. It helps to have a ,org or .edu email, then they asked what my uses were for the Extron devices and why I needed access ie. firmware updates, and the want to be sure you’re not going to distribute they’re software, and that was it. There’s a 2011 disc on archive but it doesn’t have the PCS software. Some of their newer software requires a login for authentication anyway
@ thanks! Btw have you tested Extron DSC 301 HD? It got a lot of rave over at shmups forum
@MagisterHamid I actually have that scaler but it’s completely dead so I never got to test it. It has RGB and HDMI in but only HDMI out, so it probably wouldn’t take the 240p EDID file directly and would need its own custom EDID.bin for HDMI output. Both the DVS 605 and IN1606’s HDMI output needed a powered RGB interface to combine HV sync from the HDMI to VGA DAC so that’s a slight annoyance. Some reason it had a scrambled image when using a passive HV sync combining circuit. It doesn’t have a status LCD and navigation would rely on the OSD like the IN1606 which was difficult to read and navigate in 240p. They’re very compact though, but I feel like the DVS 605 is more ideal as it has the status LCD and RGB output.
@MagisterHamid @MarcoRetro316 The DSC 301 HD was actually the unit that I used to verify the 240p EDID after Marco released his first video on the Extrons. I haven't verified yet if it can downscale to 480i but 240p looks very clean and should be comparable to both the IN 1606 and the DVS 605 as shown. I'd definitely recommend the DSC 301 HD, not only for its downscaling but for its sheer versatility.
I don't recall having to make any particular adjustments to the EDID. I did however bump VTotal to 263 lines since the preexisting EDID doesn't have any vertical blanking. That might be inconsequential on consumer CRT but with a professional monitor the image is then drawn right beneath the raster lines.
Here's some additional information that I wrote over at Shmups:
- The DSC's frame lock mode (AFL) guarantees 1 frame of lag regardless of input and output resolution, which means the DSC is a constant 16ms downscaler.
- You don't need an Extron Insider account or the proprietary EDID Manager software. Any EDID editor will do, and the older PCS software that's compatible with the DSC is readily available online to download. Pretty sure it can still be found in said Shmups forum thread.
- Selecting a default 240p preset within a 1920x240 resolution is essentially a four button configuration. Menu -> Preset -> Enter -> Select preset -> Enter. The DSC offers extensive picture controls.
@@IamFearLezzThanks again for verifying! I never found the PCS online that didn’t require a login but I probably needed to look harder. I can’t seem to pin your comment but I’ll update something in the description. Thanks so much once again!
You've tested all, but not all. There is downscaler from Kramer VP-703SC.
I’ve looked into that scaler, come to think of it they were your videos I was watching not too long ago! It doesn’t seem to output 240p and outputs as low as 480i. There’s lots of really competent scalers that will also output 480i but I’ve got to keep a focus of 240p as those are the rare gems, otherwise I’d never feasibly be able to feature all the best 480i-only downscalers. Unless, you’ve found a way to output 240p from the VP-703SC?
I hate to make your job harder, but if you want to cover every downscaler, you may want to look into the Spatz Multiscale. For some odd reason I found one here in the USA though I think it is a German device. It also only scales down to 480i, so maybe not within the scope of the series, but just wanted to let you know.
@@robine I appreciated and welcome all suggestions! I’ll look into it in case it can output 240p by a custom res. There’s a lot of really competent devices that output as low as 480i but there’s realistically too many to cover.
10/10 thumbnail
@@Larry_Danger Haha thanks! Inspired by Old Gregg from The Mighty Boosh
Do you have experience with Extron DSC301 HD? It can apearantly also downscale to 240p.
I’ve pasted a reply to a similar question about the DSC 301 HD:
I actually have that scaler but it’s completely dead so I never got to test it. It has RGB and HDMI in but only HDMI out, so it probably wouldn’t take the 240p EDID file directly and would need its own custom EDID.bin for HDMI output. Both the DVS 605 and IN1606’s HDMI output needed a powered RGB interface to combine HV sync from the HDMI to VGA DAC so that’s a slight annoyance. Some reason it sped a scrambled image when using a passive HV sync combining circuit. It doesn’t have a stairs LCD and navigation would rely on the OSD like the IN1606 which was difficult to read and navigate in 240p. They’re very compact though, but I feel like the DVS 605 is more ideal as it has the status LCD and RGB output.
@@MarcoRetro316 Thanks mate. I've been following your downscale journey since over a year. Been greatly enjoying it. I dont want it to end and I hope there are more obscure 240p downscalers out there :-)
I'm surprised there wasnt anything from the Kramer brand?
@ thanks for sticking with me! If there’s any other scaler that crop up then I’ll gladly feature them. I looked into the Kramer scalers and there was nothing I found that told me any of them could output 240p with certainty, so it would be a gamble for me to keep buying up scalers with no payoff if they only output 480i
I have been unable to get this to work with a DSC 301 HD, fwiw. I have used the v4.7.1 PCS software and successfully uploaded the premade .bin, but no display will not accept the output from the DSC 301. I have tried direct hdmi to a flat panel and known working DACs for component and to RGB with the appropriate 470ohm resistor. If there's a secret to actually get a DSC to function, it would be cool to know. Otherwise, I wonder if it is just an assumption, that it would work on the 301? Maybe I am also doing something wrong in the PCS, but it seems fairly straight forward...
@@pdiggitydogg @iamfearlezz was able to get it working on the 301. On both the IN1606 and DVS 605 I had to run the HDMI output through an Extron RGB interface in order to get stable sync. The chain would be DSC 301>HDMI DAC>Extron RGB Interface>CRT. Is the output going into a consumer TV or a professional monitor?
@@MarcoRetro316 I hadn't thought of that. I'll dig out one of the RGB units and retry it! Thanks for the help! End unit will be a consumer crt, with properly adjusted sync
@ also, if your tv is factory scart RGB then it won’t be getting blanking voltage to switch into RGB unless you have a device that introduces its own voltage to scart pin 16
@@MarcoRetro316 It works! Thank you for the help with the layout. Adding the Extron RGB 203 Rxi was the solution. Since my SCART is a mux mod, I don't have blanking and just transcoded the RGB to component. Fiddling with the image sizing resulted in an absolutely serviceable picture! I haven't done any lag testing but some quick play shows it's totally usable to me. THANK YOU
Awesome!! So glad you got it working. I’m not sure you have this setting under the Output menu there might be a Genlock/AFL option, if it’s set to On then it should make the lag stable at only 16msec (thanks again to ShankMods for pointing it out). It’s still plenty acceptable if it’s off though
Finally you are showing NDS games after all my nagging 😅
Anyhow would you say that this is one of the better downscaler?
Having HDMI input is a huge benefit as I see it.
lol I was just thinking the other day as I saw the Wii U all boxed up in my cupboard that I have to give DS emulation a try. Maybe I’ll have time to set it up by the time the Morph 4K is ready, no promises though. If there were an Extron scaler that could output 240p with this method AND has 480i output then I’d highly recommend. But the Corio2’s and OSSC Pro are still my top recommendations
@ but in the case of use cases how big of a problem is that 480i to 240p adds additional lag? The only console I can think of with a vast 480i library is PS2. Both Xbox and GC is mostly 480p.
Btw check out some of the Castlevania games on NDS. They are like made for being played in 240p on a CRT.
@@MarcoRetro316Ola, teria como fazer um video do Corio2 numa tv de consumidor 4:3 ?
E sobre esse DVS 605 A posso fazer esse método sem o software do Extron ?
Ultima perfunta kkkk, esse Extron seria possível ligar o PS5 numa Sony Xbr 800 Wide ?
@@MagisterHamid It’s subjective and I may not speak for everyone but I don’t feel the lag is noticeable. I kind of found out once I discovered my LCD projector had 3 frames of lag and I never found it game-breaking. When I was making the first downscaling video on the Corio2, I was going to have a longer segment dedicated to lag which looked at a bunch of academic studies to determine what the threshold of lag is noticeable enough to ruin the enjoyment. It would’ve been drawn out and boring so I didn’t add it but I’m pretty sure the general consensus was over 60msec to be noticeable but there’s outliers to consider like tournament participants, which I’m sure they’d be much more on tune and prone a frame of lag, though that’s likely the minority. It’s worth knowing the lag is there though, in the event someone sensitive to lag wants to use the DVS as a composite/S-Video transcoder for their non-RGB consoles like the 3DO.
TL;DR: I think 3 frames of lag is *probably* ok for most
@@finalboss5545 I can’t guarantee but I might be able to make a short video once I’m done with CRTEmudriver. You will need the PCS program to upload the 240p EDID.bin unfortunately. You should be able to scale a PS5 to an HD display with one of these Extrons but the Extron is probably unnecessary, unless you want it for picture controls. You may need an HDCP stripper in the middle, I don’t have a PS5 to test
Hello, friends. Can someone share some info and knowledge on this? So, I recently bought a Pandora Box 58s and also a newer retro gaming stick - the X2 Plus. Also acquired 2 CRT TV sets (only tested one - a Philips, so far). But since they - the retro consoles only output in 720p resolution, it seems that there are no scanlines and I'm quite displeased with the image quality (maybe it's the CRT TV's fault?). Guess they - the retro game consoles - have some bilinear filtering and all, but I still can't get an image that resembles that of old retro games on the CRTs. I mostly want to play 8 and 16 / 24 bit games, like for the NES, SNES and especially Arcade / MAME games. And I want to buy the OSSC Pro in order to reduce the Output resolution from my retro consoles from 720p to the original 240p on the old CRT TV models. So...this is my Question: Do you think the OSSC PRO will help improve the image quality and the scanlines effects on the CRTs in a 240p resolution for these types of games? And I wonder if that Bilinear filtering in the consoles games will be an issue, also? Thanks for your time.
@@GABRIELX_ASMR There’s a few things to consider. Firstly, how are you getting the 720p output into your CRT? It must be an HD CRT or a PC CRT. If I’m misunderstanding and they are consumer TV’s, do they have RGB/component inputs? If not and you downscale to 240p with any device apart from an Extron Emotia, then you’ll need a transcoder as well to go from RGB/Component to Composite/S-Video.
Then OSSC Pro will work to downscale from 720p to 240p though if the Pandora has a bi-linear filter you’d hope it can be turned off. You’d also hope that the Pandora is integer upscaling, because of not and once it’s downscaled then there may be shimmer present. The OSSC Pro is pretty intuitive to change the scaling so it might be able to alleviate vertical shimmer to some degree if it is present.
Personally, I would emulate with a PC and look into CRTEmudriver, or a raspberry Pi4 and RecalBox CRT with the CRTDual hat for RGBs, otherwise a Pi4 can output composite with a 3.5mm TRRS to RCA breakout. But then you would be buying into a new ecosystem and you have already invested into the Pandora. If you want a cheaper down scaler then the one featured in this video might be found cheaper than the OSSC Pro and the software to program it with 240p is still hosted by another site that doesn’t require a login which I linked to in the description.
@@MarcoRetro316 Thanks for responding. Right now I'm using an HDMI to SCART adapter, then the SCART goes into my CRT TV.
Unfortunately, I didn't see any way to turn off that bilinear filtering. OK, I might try the PC and CRT Emudriver method. Will also look into your video and explanations. Just did a quick test with MAME on my PC and was able to do a pretty good job with it and those HLSL effects (think they're called that), but the problem with MAME is that many of the old roms won't work with these newer versions.
Thanks again for your input.
@ no problemo. Yeh HDMI to scart will only output 480i hence why there’s no scanlines
@@MarcoRetro316 So, the OSSC PRO or another downscaler could fix this, right, M.R? By the way, great job with these series, man. Saw a lot of your past videos. Keep it up!
@IonutGabrielSpinu thanks! Yep the OSSC Pro will downscale 720p to 240p just fine by decimation. That’s what I was getting at, if the Pandora hasn’t integer upscaled to 720p, the decimated downscale *could* have shimmer. A line-blending downscaler will be a touch softer but more forgiving of bad upscaling.
Here’s a table that shows all other Downscalers that can take a 720p input
admin.retrorgb.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/DS-Table-Simplified.png
I'have an IN 1508 , am I out of luck? thanks
It’s not on the PCS compatibility list. I recently linked to a no-sign in PCS that you could try and see if it recognises your scaler. I had a read through the IN1508 and there’s a slim chance 240p might be programmed on the unit or through the Extron SIS software. Might be worth a shot but I wouldn’t get my hopes up
@@MarcoRetro316 Thank you very much, and great job!
Maybe it is not "downscaling", but a couple of years ago I got my GTX 1080 to output 240p "natively" to 2 PVMs simultaneously (only to check how the 3DS emulator worked on 2 crts, one crt for displaying each 3DS screen). It was really tricky but the results were... well, they were. Also I sent cyberpunk 2077 to my pvm (240p) , unplayable.
Yo man could you by chance buy a superconsole x5 pro and downscale it to play on a crt. Would save me some headache if your up to the challenge
Never even heard of such device until you mentioned. Seems to be an Android OS emulation device. While I won’t be testing it out, how well it can be downscaled depends if the content is integer upscaled or not and if it can output a pre-enough resolution for these scalers to interpret. If you haven’t alert bought one I’d get a PC and output 15KHz with switchres, or a RP4 with RecalboxCRT or equivalent OS
omg this fucking guy
(great video btw)
@@LouisZezeran Lui!! Thanks bud
It's HD15 or DE15, not DB15 (which would be 15 pins across 2 rows, instead of 15 pins across 3 rows).
@@powerfulaura5166 noted, thank you. I was straying away from saying VGA even though that’s what most would call it