Can MS-DOS Run on a New Modern PC 2024?
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- Опубліковано 14 січ 2023
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Can MS-DOS Run on a New Modern PC 2023?
Today in this video I’ll try to find out is it possible to install MS-DOS on a modern hardware in 2023. Enjoy
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The latest official release of MS-DOS is 6.22.
What you have here is an unofficial build from a newer version ripped from Windows 9x builds.
And you are correct, the BIOS is emulating the keyboard, mouse and storage.
Without emulation nothing would work.
you sound like the fun at any party Shaun
@@InvisibleYetVisible you judge how I am at a party based on a technical comment I made on a technical video?
Okay 🤷♂️.
@@shaunclarke94 but it's obviously a fairly loose entertainment video. Who goes around correcting people on videos like this?
Thank you for informative comment, Shaun! At least I learned something valuable - unlike the dudes other comment. I'd party with you with a MS-DOS drinking game. :-)
@@InvisibleYetVisible The same who take the time to reply to said comment on a video like this ;P (im sure ur initial comment was in fun/sarcastic haha) the whole vid i pretty moot haha. cool it was tested but not practical with official or unofficial. If ur that harcore to play on dos just buy an old computer.Not to mention DOSBOX is a thing hah.
The out of memory issue is probably mostly because you were not using a memory manager and didn't load system and drivers into high memory. Games like Wing Commander need nearly 600KB of the 640KB base memory. I remember having about 4-5 config.sys and autoexec.bat configurations to be able to play everything I could throw at my PC. The most I got was like 612KB free memory but that had nothing more loaded than DOS itself, keyboard, mouse and soundcard initialisation. None of the extras that would make a DOS environment more comfortable. Fun times!
QEMM was a great memory manager. You could get over 700KB with that. It would use hidden memory or video memory, something like that for another 64k
Just thinking something the same. If he could type "mem /c" at the prompt we'd probably see some interesting stuff
600kb? 🤯 hehehe
IBM PC is 612 max to allocate, Extended or expanded memory is not supported by the system itself.
You need to write procedures to it to allocate the higher memory !
Windows solved that issue in 1995
@@WoodUCreate PC was just too nerdy ! Arcades were still open...
Why you needed Qemm, running what ? just change your Config sys was enough. HIGH MEM =
One thing to mention is that motherboards that only suport EFI booting are coming out now. As soon as legacy booting is removed completely; you will not be able to use dos anymore at all on these machines. There are already some laptops out there that can't run dos because of this.
I'm quite sure an bootloader can still be made to emulate a bios
@@kreuner11 I'm not sure... maybe. It would require to go back out of protected mode into real mode and emulating all the bios calls and oddities that come with it. Freedos has stated that if such a day will come they might support EFI instead, which might be easier... but until then they will not. There is an experimental project for 32-bit dos that aims to be fully compatible with normal dos; they're waiting for the results of that experiment also.
@@ruadeil_zabelin It think we can switch from 64 bit mode into the 32 bit mode to enable the virtual x86 mode for a DOS emulation like BOCHS or DosBox. We need an IBM compatible BIOS (to control drives) and a VGA Bios(VBE 2/VBE 3) both with 16 bit routines and software interrupts for DOS.
The only one difference between the 32 bit mode and the 16 bit mode on 80386 CPU is the usage of the address size prefix and the operand size prefix.
The address size prefix and the operand size prefix are changing the address size and operand size for only one instruction.
The prefix can be used in the 16 bit mode (Real address mode, 16 bit virtual mode or 16 bit protected mode) and in the 32 bit mode. In 16 bit mode the default size is 16 bit and with the size prefix 32 bit. In 32 bit mode the default size is 32 bit and with a size prefix 16 bit.
In the 16 bit protected mode we can have a segment size of 4 gb on 80386 CPU using the address size prefix.
For DOS we can use the 16 bit Big Real mode with a segment size of 4 gb for DS,ES,FS,GS register, but for CS code and SS stack segment 64 kb size like in the 16 bit Real Address mode. Himem.sys use this mode. The 16 bit Big Real mode is not documented and not publised on intel developer manuals.
@@ruadeil_zabelin For a 32 bit Unreal Mode for DOS we need 32 bit BIOS routines for drives and for graphic.
In all fairness, getting "Out of memory" errors is part of normal DOS operation and very common with period-correct DOS machines. Real mode DOS programs are restricted to conventional memory, which is the first 640KB of RAM, and most drivers are also loaded there by default. This is why newer games worked, as they are protected mode (32-bit) software and are able to use extended memory. Just like back in the day, setting up an MS-DOS machine requires a lot of memory management tweaking to free up as much conventional memory as possible.
The first common trick HIMEM.SYS (and most XMS memory managers) tries is to use some trickery to load part of the system in HMA (which is a region of memory just above the first megabyte). For compatibility with the original PC, real-mode segment+offset addresses that cross the 1MB boundary wrap arout to the beggining of the memory, but that can be disabled on demand, allowing an extra 64kb of RAM to be use. According to the startup messages HIMEM.SYS was failing to enable that, you might've had more luck with XMGR.SYS.
The other trick are UMBs (upper memory blocks). Normally conventional memory is restricted to 640KB, followed by a 384KB addressing space reserved to be mapped to hardware devices (like video ram). EMM386.EXE (and some other memory managers) can scan the upper memory area, find address ranges that are not used by any hardware, and map regular RAM there. DOS can then move parts of itself and load some drivers there, freeing up portions of conventional memory. Since enabling UMBs in DOS setup prevented it from booting, we can assume EMM386.EXE has compatibility issues with newer machines. Using JemmEx (the same memory manager FreeDOS uses by default) could remedy that.
One other thing is that your unnoficial distribution of MS-DOS 7.1 loads DOSLFN by default. That can cause some software to believe they are running inside Windows (as DOS isn't supposed to support long file names). This is what probably prevented AIDA16 from running.
FreeDOS ships with more modern memory managers, both HMA and UMBs are enabled and working normally and it loads very few drivers by default, so you were getting 618kb of memory out of the box. Sadly I did not see a "mem" output from your MS-DOS install, but it was probably below 520KB, as Duke Nukem didn't work.
QEmm is the king. It configures your memory usage automatically during setup and giving you biggest amount of conventional memory possible. When I've installed it for the first time it was like magic:)
Do you ever use MS-DOS? P.S. I made a mistake. 7.1 is not the latest version and not official. The latest official version is 6.22. Wikipedia misled me. Also may you notice a grammar error at 3:51 “Congulations”
Naah
no
Not for a long time.
Yes, I'm old enough unfortunately to have used and WORK with almost all versions of ms-dos, from 1.25 through 6.22. I installed it in hyperv, only for fun. it's working. I wanted to install windows 3.11, but I'm having an hard time to have mouse working.
Yes I did
Oh my gosh! this channel is great! should have at least 1 million subscribers a long time ago! please don't stop!
Getting the sound to work is also somewhat possible if you either get lucky and your sound hardware has a compatible driver, or you get a PCI SoundBlaster card. Using DosBox is still far more convenient.
Or 86Box
Love your content, thanks!!
Seeing those games again made me smile! Thank you!
nice job! I use PCem to emulate my old pc from the late 90's. So far I haven't found anything I can't run on it. Not as cool as getting dos to work on modern hardware, but perhaps more functional and with full sound support, unlike other virtual pc programs.
I think the green flickering is due to non SVGA compliance in the video bios. i bet something like sci-tech display doctor would fix that. i cant remember the name of it, but i recall some programs (mostly games) coming with some basic SVGA driver that was developed using DD code.
luv ur channel subed
Been a PC tech guy since DOS 3.3. Neatest thing I'm seeing here is that DOS 7 has a startup logo!
If you set your BIOS to legacy mode for storage, that should actually be IDE mode. Though that is also your BIOS sort of emulating an older system, or at least providing translation for older OSes.
Amazing channel, Bro! Thanks!
of course i used DOS for a long time!
Do you remenber Warcraft Orcs & Humans?
Very impressive and out of box thinking. Great!
Can you try Windows NT4/2000? Old NT Kernel-Based Windows don't seem to work well with BIOS emulation in Modern UEFI.
So enjoyable!
Great work
I'd imagine the biggest issues with running DOS natively is the amount of things expecting EMS/XMS memory which no longer exists; I expect that's the cause of the Out of Memory errors. There's probably ways to get around that by messing with various config files. I'm guessing FreeDos and other DOS emulators fake this since we obviously have enough RAM in modern PCs.
As for actually "running" the core OS, I'm not shocked it ran fine. All x86 CPUs support the "real" operating mode DOS requires to this very day, so there isn't any specific HW reason why modern CPUs can't run DOS natively.
Back in the day I had to run an included expanded memory utility to get some of those games to work. Just type in memaker at c: prompt, if I remember correctly. I also remember some of those games really required a soundcard to work nicely, kind of like video cards today. Wondering if one of those cheep USB SoundBlaster cards would work in DOS? One worked for me in XP playing win 98 games.
DOS is using Bios int13 access to disk drives, so it doesn't care what settings you use in your bios (sata, ide, raid, ahci)...
Wolfenstein 3D was like the first 3D game I played on a 1990s era 386 PC back in 1993. I got a pirated copy from a street vendor. Then, a year or so later got into Doom and was addicted to the point of sneaking in some time at my job at the time. I recall getting a cheat guide in the bookstore for both games - internet as we know it today did not exist. Also, there is no support for multicore in MSDOS, right?
Awesome videos man. :)
U need to enable UMB and Loadigh the devices into the config system and autoexec.
That way ull have more memory I. The 640k base ram.
Can you try quake? Because there is a file which only dos can open it
You can always use QBASIC to write your own DOS games (you might have to do the full install rather than commands only) or see if you can install and run Borland Turbo C/C++ if you need more firepower and want compiled executables.
Turbo Pascal also great. It have a lot of libraries dedicated to game development. Easy usage of tilesets, sprites, sound etc.
He could use Turbo Pascal too. But for the best - assembler only
I used DR DOS 7 on my Ryzen PC and it boots with no problem (I installed Win 3.1 as well, installation was completed, but it died). My Pentium 3 does also have DR DOS installed. In my experience, if you are using a CLI operating system, it will operate fine, but from Win 95 and above, something will crash in most cases.
Also, you can add a parallel port sound card or your PC like I do.
Wonder if MSDOS 6.22 would work on an up to date system.?
Why didn't you run mem/c to see what was going on in there? Or use Memmaker to get some of that base RAM optimized?
With commander keen you may not had enough of the 640k free (was a common problem back then). dont know how you would fix it now , we used to load the mouse and maybe cd into the memory between 640k and 1m.
thats what i was thinking. i think if you could get memmaker.exe (and any additional files it needs to operate; shoukd only be 3 or 4 at most iirc) on the dos boot volume, you could run it and it may free enough conventional memory to run those applications. 386max is an alternative to emm386.exe. maybe it can be found somewhere...
@@jeffyp2483 Um I was thinking about the loadhigh command . I know dos 5 and 6 support it , not sure about dos 7.
@@jeffjenner5030 good first name btw😉
True legend of course with the Half Life Shortcut on the desktop 😎
one thing about FreeDOS, in general it has some compatibility issues and slowdowns in places where MSDOS works fine, like the long loading time of DOOM, so is a mix match of results for different memory drivers and video
Freedos is better for utilities, DosBox is for games.. 🙂
Interesting, like!
I am pretty sure, pretty sure this is the second time I've subscribed, really enjoyed Win98 and this video, let's see if you can get 5k likes, 855 as I comment this.
MS-DOS was my first operating system when I was a child, and I continued to use DOS even while Windows as installed, as we did of course, some games were only available in DOS or maybe better in DOS it's so long ago I'm not sure.
DIR FTW.
Imagine having 128 GB of RAM and only being able to use the first 640 KB LOL!!
Well, not setting up himem.sys will sure limit your dos experience.
4:43 apparently modern internal sound cards have hardware midi functions so you might be able to get good audio with those
This isn't the case, unfortunately. Basically all audio chips on boards since mid 2000s do not have a hardware MIDI synth, and most boards since then don't even ship with a MIDI+gameport port either.
You _can_ use a PCI card with a PCIe bridge. ESS AudioDrive or even CMI8738 could work out (CMI8738 I can confirm that OPL works in latest Windows and Linux and in Adlib Tracker 2 in native DOS).
got dos 6.22 running, but some games don't appear on screen. sierra games like laura bow, i can hear the music, but it's still on dos prompt. i used install, got through it, but if i try to run install again, it says packed file is corrupt. weird...
The nostalgia is real
Yes, me first pc 486dx4 100mhz and play dune2, Xcom-apocalypse. Now use Dosbox and playing this game today:-)
As you discovered- peripherals such as sound cards and mouse drivers can be a problem, as well as disk format. MS-DOS was made before USB so the mouse was typically a PS/2 or serial port device. MS-DOS relied on functions built into the BIOS, functions that are not used by Windows, so I wondered if they were still present in modern computers since they haven't been needed in so long. I don't understand why you were getting memory errors, programs running under MS-DOS typically used extended memory memory if they had to go beyond 640k and this should still be available if you have loaded the appropriate drivers. I wonder if there is something else being loaded in the lower 640k of memory that is using too much of it, of if the BIOS of modern computers somehow maps into some of the extended memory that the old programs expect to be free.
(I still have a computer in my closet that boots into MS-DOS 5.)
I think those features are still used by various pre-boot environments like bootloaders and other similar prompts (like grub uses the bios keyboard driver for interacting with the menu)
I already knew it was going to work but I find it crazy that our 64 bit CPU is still compatible with DOS after all these years.
I'm pretty sure all the games that didn't work because of "not enough memory" can be fixed by patching one or two bytes in the executable.
You need a high memory driver to use more memory in 16-bit mode.
I would like to see Tandy(Radio Shack's) GUI: Desk Mate run on a recent system! It is unlikely since the 3.69 version was proprietary to Tandy.
You should try loading EMM386 and what not for some games
This brings back memories.
You're using MS-DOS 7.10. It has many built-in features that were not present in MS-DOS 6.22, such as USB or MSCDEX drivers.
Also, you could've used the native FDISK to partition the drive.
@@universoencantado336 You replied to wrong person. I don't really make videos, although I may have one planned. (maybe)
Well the version of DOS I have is IBM PC DOS 7.0. which I believe is equivalent to MS DOS 6.22. I have run it on some later model surplus high end machines, like dual 3G Xeon processor boards. Runs fine. I have several graphical embedded applications built on Boreland C using a third party SVGA driver. Why still DOS? Again these are embedded systems that are a bit too complex for a simple micro controller. Fast boot and DOS is far less likely to randomly crash than any Windows distro. Many industrial control systems still use DOS for these reasons. Security concerns? I have the best security you can get! The networking is not TCP/IP based (will not even support any Internet access) and there are no disk drives exposed. And no working USB ports either which DOS does not even directly support.
that is crazy i didn't think it was possible to install dos on 2020 chipsets
I saw in other similar videos that AMD (microcode/BIOS) is more compatible with old OSs like MSDOS and Windows 3.11 / 9x
I didn't see any content like yours. I think you will set a trend that many other channels will follow. But the real will only be you.
Exactly)
I wondering if MS DOS is running entirely in L1 and/or L2 CPU cashe without even going to RAM?
I have a laptop that I bought in Japan years ago (2014?) - (2 graphic cards, 32gb memory etc...) at the time it was one of the best laptops you could buy (quite expensive too) I removed Windows 8.1 and installed Windows 7 (don't remember why I did it), now I have a game called Settlers 2 - (1996) and it actually starts by going to ms-dos and then running the game.
neat!
Sound is the biggest issue I guess. There are almost no motherboards sold with regular PCI slots(not PCI-e). How did you get the sound in Prince of Persia to work (since you don't have an Adlib/SoundBlaster)?
He did not get sound to work, it's not possible (except for the PC speaker). The intro segments for Blood and Prince of Persia were taken from another source (note the odd icons in the bottom right during the PoP intro).
PCI-E to PCI adapters are cheap on ebay.
Good morning, I would like to know if I can do this in a Windows 11 machine or Windows 10 machine ? I do not want to run games but my old MSDos Cobol software
I think better to use DOS-BOX for this
@@RamtechENG Tks a lot
I like how you cut to the chase. Some content creators can take 3x the time to make the same point.
with dos you had to load your high programs in correct order to get enough memory.
I would of just made a MS-DOS boot disk and copied over the files over to a fat32 formated HDD using the /s command to have it boot. Then copied over the CD and mouse driver from PhilsComputerLab setup, and his memory config startup menu. Then install all games and play
Yeah it's not a very thorough video TBH.
I have a machine with win98, xp, 7 and 10 on it.. granted w10 was unusable because it was so slow. , 7 was not much fun either but usable.
true. xp and 7 were much more usable. back in the past i used a lot ME which most people hated, but it was working fine with me
You should try something that might provide some real results like vista or 7
Maybe even an unreleased build
I still use 7 as a daily driver
very good
You need a proper config. Max I ever managed to get was around 630k free RAM and a bit. Lots of tricks involved.
The key question I have for you based on this being a modern PC from this year, is whether this PC is UEFI-only BIOS (no option for Legacy BIOS). That should not be possible but if it is, I'm greatly interested.
Is there is no legacy boot option, it won’t boot 100% unfortunately. I mean if you will choose UEFI usb stick in boot menu, then nothing happens.
Legacy Mode in the BIOS means IDE.
Tutorial for Windows 7, please..?
Windows 1 didn't even work on PC's back in the day. I would maybe try Windows 286 or Windows 386 (prob 386) see how that goes.
I wonder if you could get windows 3.1 working...
you gotta install loebs patch to memory or limit memory to 512mb
Congrulations!
@ 3:51
Windows 95 98 was a dos based graphic surface... From 2000 me xp Windows was in the nt family which is a new os, not using dos, so technically you use dos
CP/M next?
when you are short of memory you are running xms i bet. that is why we used to use boot disks to run games even if our system had enough memory. throw a pci soundblaster at it and use a bootdisk that doesn't turn xms on and it will probably work. a good test would be ultima 7. it has it's own memory manager and does not work with xms on. most sound cards after 1998 or so are soundblaster compatible, and that includes in dos, but you had to boot from another boot disk in allot of cases because the default boot would enable xms which was not compatible in multiple ways. you are hitting a software barrier that can be broken i think.
Hey, where's DIGGER, Dune 2 and Arkanoid?
You should try running computer viruses in environments they weren't designed for, such as DOS viruses on Win9x (or even 32bit Vista/7/8 that still can run DOS software) or Win9x viruses on NT-based systems.
Might provide for some interesting videos.
I've seen videos on this topic elsewhere, but it's hardly riveting stuff as they rarely do anything.
Does the Pakistani Brain infect windows 11 :)))
READ THIS: You have a option in bios/UEFI to activate "legacy" option for your Mouse, that way your mouse would work even if you dont have drivers and the like..... search it up.
Congrulations? (3:51) Don't they mean Congratulations 😛Either way, congratulations for getting it working!
Omg. I didn’t notice that. I made a mistake, 7.1 version is not the last and not official, the last is 6.22. Wikipedia misled me. Sorry :)
@@RamtechENG no worries :-) Good job anyway 🙂
@@davyarthurs thank you!
How about windows 3.1
mbr master boot record still got the old versions of ms dos
MS DOS need an ibm compatible bios.
Yup it's fun. Though I still think using a VM is a greater solution. But yeah DOS is so simple that that is probably why it keeps working on modern hardware almost forever, even on bare metal.
But if it's just for the experience of the games and not so much the operating system itself, you're mutch better off with DOSBox anyway, because it's optimized for modern graphics and has configurable CPU cycle speed.
I am on an Android tablet with the Magic DosBox free app installed and i like to make tiny executable for DosBox with a little help from debug.
Ramtech do you have dosbox
Yes
There is a reason they were called IBM pc compatibles. They were meant to be backwards compatible with older systems to a certain extent.
Wait, Blood had quality sound through a pc speaker?
It’s a montage
@@RamtechENG ok, i got confused with the montage
4:30 - MS-Dust.. Thanks YT Trainslator.. Okay xD
This is an unofficial bulid. Chance is they added driver
I think I have the exact same Monitor and Keyboard. lol.
Try and load Commodore 64 basic v2 on modern pc
Legacy mode is IDE
wolfstein 3D that was a great game
Yes for a long time.
There is unsloved puzle was left behind. Origunal win 95 not 98 not other , can not run on new pc. Its works but modification is unacceptable.
Ah, old, bad days of twaking autoexec.bat and config.sys to move as much stuff as possible outside of the conventional memory. Real-mode games often required more than 550 kB free. It became better in the later period, when games and apps used the "DOS-extender" hack to run themselves in a protected mode, with flat 32-bit memory model accessing many megabytes of RAM.
i have use free dos on newer computers I muscly use dos box
The MBR means Master Boot Record, it's not a file system. You need to make a FAT16 partition.
Yes indeed, but you still need an MBR. I have an MBR on an 14TB GPT partitioned disk and use INT19 to boot MS-DOS 7.1 from a FAT16 partition on the drive. I dual boot with Windows 10 Pro, on the same disk. I'm using a supermicro X9DAi workstation motherboard.
3:51 Why does it say "this is free software under GNU GPL"?
Idk
Idk
That MS-DOS 7.1 was created by China Dos Union (CDU) and it was made to pretend that Microsoft had released a free MS-DOS version. Actually it's the MS-DOS version used by Windows 95 OSR2 and Windows 98 & 98SE with a custom installer and some extra drivers and features.
There's some MS-DOS 8.0 out there based on the MS-DOS files used by Windows ME.
i actually like dos😃
hi you have several problems why it's not working
cpu is probably too fast there were programs to slow them down
also check your conventional and umb memory etc
i used emm386 and himem.sys
in autoexec.bat you can then use
lh mscdex etc (and the appropriate .sys in config.sys)
you also have memmaker to help you and mem /c!p etc
also as a shell 4dos was very good
out of memory because you need Qemm or memmaker to make more room in 640K space.