I am surprised that the companions don't leave early within the show, especially considering what they live through. Like in the first three episodes alone of Series 4, Donna sees a woman dying from being used as a breeding vessel for fat creatures, a LOT of people are die in the Pompeii eruption, and she tries to warn everyone to no avail, and she sees a whole disgusting, monstoruous slave trade pracitce from the inside. I wouldn't be surprised if Donna came home, layed in her bed, and weeped for hours on end. I would do the same.
@@viridimagoria1778 True, although as the Doctor says, what was going to happen to Pompeii was unavoidable, historically because it was a fixed point in time. Not to mention that there are times throughout the classic and new series that as remarkable as he is, he can't save everyone and he even has his limitations which I believe Donna is forced to begrudgingly accept, although she does manage to convince him to rescue the family who he was initially not going to save. I don't think he could have ever fully lived with himself if he had just left them to die when he knew he could do so. The thing with Donna and is, and is touched on is the negative impact on is how traveling with them can come to the detriment of the companions that travel with him, but their families or even their friends as well. Martha tells this to Donna after they have met in The Sontaran Stratagem, saying how if you get too close to the Doctor you can end up getting burned, which foreshadows Donna's ultimate fate in Journey's End where she nearly dies, and the Doctor is forced to erase all her past memories of her time spent with the Doctor leaving it be like from her perspective that she never knew him, so that he may save her life. Why she continued traveling with the Doctor is anyone's guess I suppose, although I assume that like with past companions, there were great wonders and amazing moments she saw and had with him when they traveled together between the insanity and carnage that she would witness. Otherwise, I can't think of what other reason there could be, apart from she did like helping people as the Doctor did.
I love when rose realises her counterpart is a dog in this universe and she turns to the doctor kindve expecting comfort and he just bursts out laughing.
Id probably say this is where mickey came into his own and he essentially grew a pair lol but i think him staying on the parallel universe to fight cybermen is a good decision for him.
I do feel these Cyberman had some tragedy to them. Especially when one of them recovered their emotions and realised what has happened to them. Saying "Why am I so cold?" It still breaks my heart.
Aside from the Cybus Cyberman having a more amoured design I've always felt that this episode does go out of its way to highlight the dehumanization of the Cybermen and show that there not just robots. There's the establishing scenes with the homeless victims, the conversion (and death) of parallel-Jackie, the scene with "Sally" and the moral argument between Lumic and The Doctor. They're still scary in the way they are meant to be in Classic Who. The most robotic thing about them is their singular voice but even that was done in Classic Who up until Revenge of the Cybermen. It highlights their loss of individuality and lack of identity.
Personally, I really like this story. I feel as if they actually make the Cybermen intimidating, keeping in line with their original concept in the Tenth Planet. This is two out of Cybermen stories that I actually really like in NewWho (this and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls). This is also one of the few times that the 10 and Rose relationship, because 10 actually grows balls and tells Rose that she can't see her father, and even when they do see him, it's actually meant to move the story forward. Mickey was great in this as well, he finally develops as an action hero, but not to the point that he's a completely different character. This is one of my favourites from Series 2 and one that I like to watch every now and then.
The difference between UK and US fans: for the latter, Roger Lloyd Pack is Barty Crouch Jr. For the former, he's Trigger from Only Fools and Horses. In fact, it for that role he was most fondly remembered after he passed away.
I enjoyed this story line. Especially Rose finding out Her Alternative world Parents did not actually have her but had a Dog called Rose that totally cracked me up. It had some heartbreaking moments too though.
Me too! The first time I watched this episode was right around when Cake by The Ocean came out, I thought the two songs sounded very similar! Lots of good feels!
I've heard the songs in Edgar Wrights films, are picked for comic effect, to satirise and juxtapose the horror/violence, perhaps that's the intent here.
One thing that bugs the heck out of me is the stomps boots, but in the second episode has the sneaky cyberman kill which is the only time you don’t hear the stomping?
I'm watching this one today for my rewatch this year, and I completely agree about how the Cybermen can be used so much better after you've seen the best of the classics (Tomb obviously being probably the peak). I find that NuWho misuses the Cybermen much more than classic series did, and while I find this to be one of the better ones, the only great Cyberman story in NuWho is the Series 10 finale, at least for me.
Yeah the Cybermen in NuWho have been very hit-and-miss - so have most returning monsters tbh. Still, I think the heavy 'suit of armour' style Cyberman has just as much potential as the classic Cyberman if used correctly, and hope to see both of them again.
I don't mind the Cybus Cybermen, they definitely have as much potential as the Mondasian Cybermen or any other variation, it's just a matter of how well written they are. I also wouldn't mind seeing them make a return.
They could compliment eachother very well if used together: the 10th Planet style Cybermen can move silently due to the lack of noisy boots, making them good scouts, and the Cybus Cybermen bring the heavy muscle- err... hydraulic fluid. We almost had this in "World Enoough and Time" - it's an idea that just wants to be developed a little further.
@@IsaacWhittakerDakin I remember there was nothing good on tv that night so my dad was like "I used to watch dr who when I was younger" (3rd/4th doctor) and put it on. I never looked back from there. Unfortunately he has never had any interest in the show since when he used to watch it
I quite liked the use of 'The lion sleeps tonight'. Its such a feel good song that when you pair it with the screams of the people being converted in the background it feels really unsettling, like a horror movie :)
It was the 1st time we saw the Doctor really team up with the rebels on a world, the 1st time it had movie ambition, 1st time I said "now THAT'S Doctor Who!"
This two-parter is one of those thing it's gonna be harder and harder to rewatch now, since as of recently I've now lost both of my grandmothers. The stuff about Mickey's gran always hit me in the gut even when my grandmothers were alive, but now? Yeah that's gonna hit me like a ton of bricks from now on most likely.
This was my introduction to the Cybermen and I really enjoyed it. Though that could be nostalgia talking. I like that you see parts of the conversion process from through the eyes of the victim. It really helped instil their horror aspect. Then the heartbreak when the Doctor talks to a cyberman (cyberwoman?) that was converted the night before her wedding. It sold the loss of individuality that’s integral to who the cybermen are.
Huh, I never made the Barty Crouch connection before now. The worry with the pop songs was definitely more to do them being added to the soundtrack as opposed to the characters playing them. Luckily it's only happened once so far.
I'd have to disagree with you on the tragedy of these cybermen and that it has to come down to just how afraid and unhinged Lumic is. He's so fearful of dying that when he manages to perfect "human.2" it's not just himself he wants to save it's everyone, he truly believes that he's doing everyone a favour and will stop at nothing to get it done. Another thing that springs to mind is when they break the emotional inhibitor on a cyberman and it says things like "I'm so cold" it's just such a heart wrenching scene. While it's more effective with the mondasian cybermen I think even with just this one guy's fear of death it still works. And then not only that but the tragedy of all these unwilling victims being mutilated and forced to live a life they never asked for. That just gets me in particular.
I love the idea of 'The Lion Sleeps Tonight'. It was used to drown out the screams of the victims. It was twisted and awful and I LOVED it. It just wasn't the best song to use
@@xenon8117 Kind of the same feeling. Like the fact that an alternate universe can have its own Cybermen created under _very_ different circumstances (and even Mondosian Cybermen being created separately two different times); the general conditions were set to create a Torchwood, if not the specific conditions.
Optional Optimism - the MAIN reason was Queen Victoria surviving the werewolf attacks at Torchwood House. The Doctor helped with that sure, but nothing to say she couldn’t have survived by another means in that universe.
What if the parallel doctor is like the master? What if instead of him and the parallel master they both die or all time lord's died or never were in that universe. Perhaps the doctor in the parallel universe calls himself someone else like the professor? The surgeon? The valeyard?
Two minor little things. The truck that kidnapped/filleted the Homeless? It's marked as 'International electromatics' as in the Troughton Cyberman story 'the Invasion'. And the actor who played Mr Crane (Colin Spaull' was the sadistic 'Lilt' in the Colin Baker story 'Revelation of the Daleks'.
I actually find it hilarious that whenever the daleks or the cybermen show up it's played as a plot twist despite the fact that they're usually mentioned in the title
I think the idea of having strange music choices (not so much Rosa but definitely with this and the Master) was to show how uncaring the characters are. It seems shocking to have something so horrific being shown against a peppy song so these characters seem all the more unhinged for listening to those songs.
Interestingly the "Lion Sleeps Tonight" playing over the screams of those being converted to Cybermen is based on real history. During the military dictatorship in Argentina in the 70s they played loud disco music to drown out the screams of those being tortured. But I agree Voodoo Child to the Master destroying half the planet was utterly cringe-worthy.
I think these Cybermen would have been more intimidating/meaningful if they'd been something other than Cybermen. Too much cultural baggage for fans of the Classic series. If the aesthetic had been slightly different, and they'd been called something else, the idea of emotionless, rapidly-multiplying robots that rip out our brains for CPUs would be more properly unnerving, imo, especially since these eps give us confirmation that, in some way, the human being used *IS* still in there struggling to get out.
Also, imo, the Master blasting Voodoo Child was actually pretty funny. But the use of The Lion Sleeps Tonight here will never cease to make me grimace and tilt my head in utter confusion.
@@roguebritgravy1 Now I'm picturing them saying "delete!" over and over again in a thick Austrian accent :D It would have made their little bitch-off with the Daleks in Doomsday a lot funnier, too...
@@roguebritgravy1 Me I felt strongly remembered at the was THE BORG were presented in STAR TREK. Guess that had been the main influx here. But also THE SLIDERS had an ingluence here when you compare the way sites, camera angles and cuts had been handled.
I still kind of have a soft spot for these cybermen. I think the marching works, I love that cybermen never run, they move calmy but never stopping. Watching them all corner the Doctor, Rose and Pete really scared me as a kid. I love the parallel world angle instead of Mondas, I think it was a good way to re-introduce them. I just hate the catchphrase.
I understand where you're coming from with the criticism of the Cybermen in this story. However, I think you're missing what this story is really trying to say. This story is a critique of society in a digital age. The people have been consumed by their love of technology. They've become so desperate for the latest tech and updates that they don't think twice before handing over so much power and control to one corporation and more specifically, one power hungry, desperate mad man. A man who is so desperate to survive that he's willing to exploit peoples thirst for new technology and sell them a lie. The disturbing thing is that despite all this, Lumic still genuinely believes everything he's doing is for the benefit of humanity and completely necessary. The writers are coming at it from a totally different angle, but the tragedy of a society destroying itself is still definitely there. It's also scarily pertinent for 2019, let alone 2006! I also think the writers still make sure to highlight the horrible fate of the humans being converted into these metal creatures. The homeless people being lured into the back of vans with the false promise of being given food is very disturbing. The scenes with the people lined up ready to be converted are quite unsettling. Then the scene with Mrs Moore and the Doctor disabling the emotional inhibitor of that Cyberman/women is pretty emotional , when she starts to remember who she was and that she was getting married the next day. Right at the end, when the Doctor sends out the signal that disables all the Cybermen's emotional inhibitors and one of the Cybermen sees itself in a mirror and starts to cry and you just hear the Doctor say sorry in the back. These people have lost their individuality. They've been dehumanised and been stripped of their identity and the story makes sure to remind you of that fact. I still prefer the classic series' take on the Cybermen, but I think this story does an admirable job at re imagining the Cybermen for a modern audience. Also, as you said. setting this story on a parallel Earth avoids running into the problem of ret conning or contradicting the original concept of the Cybermen. So all in all, it was a job well done.
What annoyed me was when, in Moffat’s era, they used this alternate universe design for the Cybermen of the Doctor’s universe. That made no sense to me.
Philip Hawkins the thing is that those Cybermen couldn’t be the Mondas Cybermen. Mondas Cybermen are all about survival over everything else like he said. Cybus Cybermen are about becoming perfect, about improving and taking over. They’re very different beasts, and I feel like if they weren’t called Cybermen and had a more unique design NO ONE would have issues with them.
On a lighter note though (and I'm pretty certain I'm stealing this gag from an old UA-cam comment I remember reading) "Hello, father!" "You are no son of mine. And you will be, upgraded!"
There is an episode of a 70's British anti-terror show called "The Professionals" in which Roger plays the villain of the week: a hitman called Ramos. Roger's performance is fine but they dub him over with a terrible eastern European accent, and in the script he constantly refers to himself in the 3rd person, which is kind of ridiculous; in the physical action scenes he is actually pretty decent. I always forgot that he played Lumic; they did have a habit of casting him as villains now and again, I actually think he did a better job in antagonist roles than he is often given credit for.
I definitely agree with you about the Cybermen. When I was a kid, these two episodes were my first introduction to the Cybermen, so that's what I THOUGHT they were supposed to be (big robots with human brains). I understood the villains motivation, but it doesn't blend well with the overall design of the Cybermen. As I've got older, and explored more DW material, I understand what the Cybermen are now (and Capaldi's era DID help by bringing back the Mondasian Cybermen). If anything that helped me to also understand how scary and tragic the Cybermen are meant to be, compared to these hulking bulks of metal that look like you could put against each other in robot wars
I really have to disagree on this. I'm familiar with the classic Cybermen and the RTD era Cybermen and I love them both for different reasons. The Cybusmen become a lot better when you stop *needing* them to be the same as the classic Cybermen (they aren't) and appreciate them on their own merits. The real stinkers were the ones from "Nightmare in Silver" those were just terrible X(
The reason why I like the pop music in earlier new who is because it was used ironically. I've always loved it when music juxtaposed with horrific events, I just find it really funny in a dark, twisted sort of way. Also, the music used in Series 11 (both for trailers and in the actual episodes) is just plain bad tbh.
when u were talking about the issues w shows bringing in parallel worlds and alternate versions of dead characters etc, all i could think of was supernatural doing exactly all those things lol
Really long winded opinion ahead, yeah my views on this episode are complicated so read at own risk. First of all I loved the concept and exploration of Parallel worlds. I love Mickey this episode. I also loved the villain which by the way... You don't like the stompy boot noise? I just can't comprehend that when it was my favorite part. There was something chilling about it, how when they were running away you could still hear their footsteps coming closer even when you couldn't see them. It kept me on the edge of my seat and feeling very immersed when with what I watching. When I was younger it honestly scared me, especially since the marching was so slow. It give me notions that you could run as fast as you want but it wouldn't matter because unlike you they didn't tire so they didn't have to be fast. They'd tire you out and then get you and you'd know it was coming because you would hear them. I don't know even as an adult no longer scared there is still something intimidating about the sound of their marching almost clunking noise. It's familiar but not, the sound of marching is not sinister in it self but the heaviness of the step adds a sense of something other which is quite reflective of who the Cybermen are. This sound when played against the music that plays through out the episode always brings me a slight thrill, it's just brilliant. Whilst the version Bill and 12 encountered are now my preferred I still really love this more militaristic version. Also I disagree with your view on them being to robotic the episode practically shoves it in our face every scene the morbid real truth of them. In particulate the scene with the cyberman who first has their emotions back on accident really hit me hard as did the conversion chambers themselves. The fact even class placement rich or poor couldn't save you. I also like the message at the time the episode was trying to make about our reliance on technology. Secondly and the main reason my view on this episode is complicated is I hate how they wrote Rose. Her jealousy over the Doctor even talking to another women (Lucy(?) the waitress) really stood out to me and not in a good way which when combined with her hypocrisy to Mickey at the end was infuriating. This episode made me I admit to myself I no longer liked season 2 Rose where before I had just been on the fence. In season 1 loved her, she grew as a person when she finally let Mickey go in Boom Town but then they undo this by making her say the whole "What if I need you speech" at the end. To me they ruined her previously established character development and made her regress to who she was before key events. In fact this whole 2 parter regressed Rose a lot to me. Lesson leaned in Father's day? She clearly didn't learn anything given how she acted in regards to Pete and she once again dismissed/ignored the Doctor. I was baffled by her surprise over Mickey, "I suppose we just take him for granted" as if this wasn't something previously established, to the end which I already covered how she dealt with Mickey's departure. What happened to "There's nothing for me here" when talking to her mum and Mickey. The writers either ignored/forgot that progress or they purposely wrote her as emotionally manipulative, either way it didn't sit right with me. So while I love the villain on the whole I didn't like the episode due to how it shaped my opinion of a character I previously liked. By writing her like series 1 never effected her, adding negative traits season 1 Rose didn't have (alarm bell ringing jealousy) it just really upset me because that wasn't the Rose I'd grown to love. Maybe it wasn't a big deal to you, a lot of people didn't mind it but to me I spent a lot of the episode wondering if they were purposely assassinating Rose's character or if it was an unintentional side effect of making Mickey the focus that they had her slide into old Rose patterns.
I really don’t like these Cyberman either, because they were much more robotic than anything, and I agree with you about the classic ones, which were following an imperative of survival. Also, the delete thing just felt like the writers wanted them to have a catchphrase. Though I do like the “Excellent” phrase the Cyberleader used in 80’s classic Who.
This was the first story that introduced me to the cybermen which are my favorite Doctor Who villains. I understand your view on this version of the cybermen but I still personally find them scary and tragic. The idea of not being given a choice in being a cyberman is much scarier to me.
The Cybermen are great here. They’re scary, they are ABSOLUTELY tragic, and they barely feel like robots, because they’re constantly talking about upgrading, we always see scenes of people getting upgraded in factories, we see the brains inside of the casings, and you can just feel that they used to be human. The only Mondasian Cybermen that felt human were the Tenth Planet Cybermen. I love the delete catchphrase, because it finally gives the Cybermen something to say that’s quick and easy, not something long like “you belong to us... you will become like us.” This is a very well done two parter in my opinion.... and don’t call the Cybusmen... DONT YOU DARE... they’re Cybermen... Cybermen... the huge key that people seem to forget, is that the Cybermen are constantly upgrading, I mean, have you seen the cybernetic technology of today?! It looks like a friggin robot arm on a person, not a cloth mask with a flashlight.
I never understood why they had to cut the rope on the Cyberman climbing the little ladder. Clearly it was trying to escape with them, not harm them since it realized the horror of what had happened. Pete laughing at it falling to it's death felt very tone deaf. I was reminded of the scene in Serenity where Mal kicks the guy to his reaver-death who tried escaping with the crew. And it made me wonder if Kathryn Janeway had been with them if she wouldn't have convinced the Doctor to save it.
i remember this one i thought it was great but looking at this now i think yeah it hasn't aged to well but i like the Cybermen we got in A Nightmare In Sliver i feel they improved it.
Me, I agree. But I also wonder how much THE SLIDERS had influenced those two episodes because in both parts I felt a strong déjà vu. 13:20 The aspect with the homeless I can understand. Seriousliy it is in the real world not different, who cares about them . They were the perfect first victims for the mad industrialist. But I would not go so far to put this communistic angle in it as in THE REVANGE OF THE POOR as you can find farther down.
It’s sad, he was a great actor but Roger Lloyd Pack passed away in 2014. He’s the guy who played John Lumic in this. I’ll always see him as Owen from The Vicar of Dibley. I like his Bart Crouch too. Anyway, I like this episode I can see what you mean about the Cybermen. Blue tooth ear pieces freak me out though after watching this cause they look so similar to the EarPods. I agree about Mickey too. I love Mickey. His character arc was great.
They should of reversed the tittles cause Age of Steele wouldn’t have given anything away. It matches the look of the opening shot of part 1 as a mega industrial setting. If the second part was called Rise of the Cyber-Men it spoils nothing. The shows biggest SPOILERS are the episode names. That and the the trailers last Christmas episode would have been so much better if they hadn’t put the Dalek voice on at the end of the trailer.
I quite like this story in isolation - as part of Series 2 this is part of what pulls this year down. The alternate reality isnt alternate enough to escape from the overall "Modern Day" feel of the series - also 4 episodes in 1 year is too much. It all contributes to a lot of the series feeling very samey. I love Micky's development in Series 1 & 2 - and the grudging respect / changing attitude the Dr has towards him. I also like the scientists woman and the way they don't shy away from the fact the Cybermen are still people inside with a few nicely moving scenes. Overall not perfect but still good.
I appreciate that they were able to capture some of their more horrific nature with the conversion machines being shown and the sounds associated. I really didn't like it when they tried going full on 'Borg' with 'Cybernat' conversion, which doesn't in one that same fear,
This is one of those episodes that I like it more each time I watch it. I didn't like it that much the first time I watched it but by the 6th or 7th times I really like it now
The thing with horrific things happening to the sound of pop music is meant to present the villains as callous and uncaring of human life. It's a pretty basic cinematic tactic?
I actually really like the walking sound of the Cybus Cybermen, however the rest of them felt much weaker than previous Cybermen, they needed more of a body horror element and less of a robot element.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but these Cybermen have only appeared here, in the finale, and in The Next Doctor. From Pandorica Opens it was back to the original Cybermen of this universe they just looked like these Cybers.
I would've liked it if the Cybermen were destroyed not by pain, but by guilt. Remove the emotional inhibitor, and they now realize what they've done to those innocent humans. Overcome with guilt, they deactivate themselves. That would've been a better way for Lumic to have been defeated.
Yeah, that's like the first episode of Earth-Shock being called, 'Revenge of the Cybermen' or something. Or Spyfall Part One have the title 'The New Master'. Why?
I agree with the fact that they are too robotic. They now have the bloody ability to fly. Ask someone who watched The Tenth Planet in 1966 and they'd laugh at you if you told them that in 48 years time that these almost human-like creatures would be able to do such a thing
Thank You! I mean yes the design of the cybermen here is interesting, but cybermen were never something that needed to be reboot. Stuff Davis' "Everything has to be re-invented to fit the modern era" == Something don't need to be changed. And sometimes old school can be visually and thematically more stunning.
PLEASE NOBODY STEAL THIS STORY/IDEA I'M WORKING REALLY HARD ON IT! 'Silver Nemesis', the last Cybermen story of Classic Who. SPOILERS: The entire fleet was destroyed. But what if one ship escaped? What if it crashed? What if the few survivors crawled their way to an old base on some planet and fixed themselves up as much as they could? Well, that's exactly what happens. The Doctor and an expedition crew came across this old base years in the future. When these Cybermen wake up (cause, duh), they send a signal to contact any surviving Cybermen. But... there aren't any. These are the last of the Classic Cybermen. The Cybusmen (currently in their 'Nightmare in Silver' form, but we're getting something new S12, so I'll update) find the signal. They come to wipe out or convert the old Cybermen. BUT! They're purely logic, which gives the Classic Cybermen the advantage. The Cybusmen that come are wiped out and the Classic Cybermen re-establish themselves as the dominant Cybermen, waging war with the Cybusmen for years to come). Cybermen civil war which you could probably get another episode or two out of. Thoughts?
So. We’re told in this episode that Travel between universes was possible when The Time Lords were around. And they’re now around again. Just saying. This is not me clutching at straws since Jodie said she’d love to work with Billie. No sir, not me.
I really liked Mickey in this episode, he was the best part. I didn't like that Jackie was so uncaring and elitist. The part about the dog was hilarious, I laughed at the same time as the Doctor. But it was a fun episode, a good (temporary) exit for Mickey, and a good ending. Even though it was a two-parter, it never felt overly long.
Yes the cybermen were campy, but scifi is a ll about characters. And thats a beautiful exit for mickey in his character arc. Great actor. The other stuff is good too, but mickey. Good job from davies too. He reminds me of joxer from xena who gradially becommes more likable by design.
I quite liked this two-part story, although I wasn't so keen on John Lumic as a character, as he struck me as being too two-dimensional, and I found Roger Lloyd Pack's performance overly campy. Whether it was down to bad direction or not, I don't know but it just made him less believable as Doctor Who villain, as well as a human character. For anyone not familiar with him, they should check him out in long running-role of Trigger, the dopey friend of Del Boy and Rodney in the classic British sitcom Only Fools and Horses which he is so much better in.
Completely agree with you, man. I was overall ambivalent towards the Cybermen at first, as I got into NuWho first. Then I watched the Classic show, including The Tenth Planet, followed by listening to Big Finish's Spare Parts. Now I think NuWho completely misses the point of the Cybermen (at least until Series 10). Now I actively dislike them. They seem to have gotten the basic part of it, that the Cybermen sacrifice humanity to convert, but that's pretty much it, and subsequent episodes don't really explore the themes behind them. The Cybermen are not just a bunch of cyborgs that shout a generic catchphrase and kill people. They're not Dalek knockoffs (and I say that as someone who laments how the Daleks have been mistreated recently). They're the remnants of a dying race of humans who mutilated and dehumanised themselves in a last desperate attempt to survive. They only killed as a last resort as they saw every living thing as vital for conversion and the continuous existence of their kind. They believed they were doing the right thing, in a sense. This is why the "Delete" catchphrase simply doesn't work: it's counterproductive to how they're supposed to function (and yes, I know about the whole "incompatible" thing, but even that doesn't really work with them). As long as the body is alive and functional, then that's all they need. Honestly, "Delete" is just an example of how the NuWho Cybermen are just copies of the Daleks, which is even more ridiculous. The Daleks work as a warning against extreme xenophobia, fascism and nuclear warfare. The Cybermen work as a warning against our over-reliance on technology. They function well in their own way, and to change that just about undid what Kit Pedler (the man who created the Cybermen) worked for. The closest thing they had to a catchphrase in Classic Who was really "You shall be like us!", which makes much more sense. Again, the Series 10 finale did what should have been done sooner. It brought the original Mondasian Cybermen back and did something fresh and new while still remaining faithful to what the Cybermen have been from the beginning. No weakness to gold, no "Delete!", no overpowering, no flying like Iron Man. Honestly, the parallel world storyline should have been in a separate episode, and should have had the Doctor and his companions end up on either Mondas or Telos, with the Doctor debating about whether to interfere with the Cybermen's creation, in spite of the fact that he may also be rendering an innocent race of humans - the species he loves so much - effectively extinct. Much more dramatic and emotional.
@@DsRelaxingSounds Yeah, absolutely. Change needs to happen, especially with a show as old as Doctor Who. It's just I always felt that any adaptation of a source is at its best when it stays true to the source material. I was thinking of making it as more of a follow up to the Classic storyline, like if the Doctor went to Telos instead of Mondas (like he did in Spare Parts). The story could be about him trying to find another way, or something along those lines. For NuWho fans, it would provide another glimpse into the Doctor's past, as he encounters an enemy with an even more complex relationship than he had with the Daleks, as they're an enemy with more humanity. With all that said, I do agree that adding new things to something is always the way to go. The show would continue to be more interesting in that regard. Expanding on a concept makes a fresh experience. So, the idea of moving forward with the Cybermen was a good one. I just feel like the delivery was a bit off, because it contradicts some of the things that the Cybermen represented (e.g. "Delete"). It was a change, but not the best one. But that's just my opinion on the matter. I have been wrong before XD
For me this shares some problems with World Enough & Time, and The Doctor Falls. The upgrades are forced on them. It's not a choice, a necessary sacrifice for survival. Salvation and Damnation combined, in that episode, the Master felt like a distraction.
What? In this two parter lumic decides that the cybermen will convert all of humanity for seemingly no reason whereas in WEAT and the doctor falls they are forced to change because they can't survive on that planet
I'm going to disagree with you. The key difference is that the society in World Enough & Time was actively dying and they all knew it. So it becomes the work of the society as a whole driving them to cyberization, even if the individuals at the ground level don't all know. I think narrowing that down to literally one guy does much more to dilute the entire thing.
@@CouncilofGeeks I apologise. It's a while since I watched it. I didn't recall the actively dying part. I don't recall seeing the peril. We don't see the suffering caused by those not being enhanced. Having the master being behind it... somehow, as if he (somehow) orchestrated the cyberization. Anyway, as previous. I don't think I've watched it since broadcast.
My straight best friend can't stand the ending of this two-parter; she says it's morally messed-up how the Doctor ultimately forces mass suicide through the Cyberman ranks. And, while I'd need to rewatch it to see how I feel about the subject, I can definitely see where she's coming from on that.
You really are too grumpy sometimes. I thought A Girl lin the Fireplace is one of the best episode of the show and that this is a perfectly good two parter.
@@WiloPolis03 Yass! The new Mondasian Cybermen were great! I still consider the ones in this two-parter to be their equals, though. Other than that, most of the Cyberman stories in NuWho have ranged from a bit mediocre to insultingly stupid :\
Honestly this is the episode(s) that got me into Doctor Who in the first place, and the Cybermen are still my favorite villains in the show. But my GOD it sucks. The Cybermen deserved a lot better than this, especially considering it was supposedly inspired by Spare Parts, a MUCH better story.
I feel like the Cybermen have kind've lost their way. Like, the assimilation aspect has pretty much been rendered mute at this point and the Cybermen now seem to just be generic robots.
Everyone seems to forget that Mickey saw another version of himself get killed in front of him like damn that's gotta do a number on the psyche
I am surprised that the companions don't leave early within the show, especially considering what they live through. Like in the first three episodes alone of Series 4, Donna sees a woman dying from being used as a breeding vessel for fat creatures, a LOT of people are die in the Pompeii eruption, and she tries to warn everyone to no avail, and she sees a whole disgusting, monstoruous slave trade pracitce from the inside. I wouldn't be surprised if Donna came home, layed in her bed, and weeped for hours on end. I would do the same.
@@viridimagoria1778 True, although as the Doctor says, what was going to happen to Pompeii was unavoidable, historically because it was a fixed point in time. Not to mention that there are times throughout the classic and new series that as remarkable as he is, he can't save everyone and he even has his limitations which I believe Donna is forced to begrudgingly accept, although she does manage to convince him to rescue the family who he was initially not going to save. I don't think he could have ever fully lived with himself if he had just left them to die when he knew he could do so.
The thing with Donna and is, and is touched on is the negative impact on is how traveling with them can come to the detriment of the companions that travel with him, but their families or even their friends as well. Martha tells this to Donna after they have met in The Sontaran Stratagem, saying how if you get too close to the Doctor you can end up getting burned, which foreshadows Donna's ultimate fate in Journey's End where she nearly dies, and the Doctor is forced to erase all her past memories of her time spent with the Doctor leaving it be like from her perspective that she never knew him, so that he may save her life. Why she continued traveling with the Doctor is anyone's guess I suppose, although I assume that like with past companions, there were great wonders and amazing moments she saw and had with him when they traveled together between the insanity and carnage that she would witness. Otherwise, I can't think of what other reason there could be, apart from she did like helping people as the Doctor did.
I love when rose realises her counterpart is a dog in this universe and she turns to the doctor kindve expecting comfort and he just bursts out laughing.
Id probably say this is where mickey came into his own and he essentially grew a pair lol but i think him staying on the parallel universe to fight cybermen is a good decision for him.
I do feel these Cyberman had some tragedy to them.
Especially when one of them recovered their emotions and realised what has happened to them.
Saying "Why am I so cold?"
It still breaks my heart.
Aside from the Cybus Cyberman having a more amoured design I've always felt that this episode does go out of its way to highlight the dehumanization of the Cybermen and show that there not just robots. There's the establishing scenes with the homeless victims, the conversion (and death) of parallel-Jackie, the scene with "Sally" and the moral argument between Lumic and The Doctor. They're still scary in the way they are meant to be in Classic Who. The most robotic thing about them is their singular voice but even that was done in Classic Who up until Revenge of the Cybermen. It highlights their loss of individuality and lack of identity.
"The rematch of Barty Crouch and Barty Crouch Jr!"
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Personally, I really like this story. I feel as if they actually make the Cybermen intimidating, keeping in line with their original concept in the Tenth Planet. This is two out of Cybermen stories that I actually really like in NewWho (this and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls). This is also one of the few times that the 10 and Rose relationship, because 10 actually grows balls and tells Rose that she can't see her father, and even when they do see him, it's actually meant to move the story forward. Mickey was great in this as well, he finally develops as an action hero, but not to the point that he's a completely different character. This is one of my favourites from Series 2 and one that I like to watch every now and then.
Shame Mickey wasn't around traveling with The Doctor more because this was probably his best episodes.
The titles should have been switched.
Steve Kemmett that what I thoughts he was talking about it
Yeah the reveal of the Cybermen would’ve been so much cooler
The titles should've been switched for that Ganger two parter
Yeah, that would have helped.
That’s exactly what I was thinking whilst I watched the episodes.
The difference between UK and US fans: for the latter, Roger Lloyd Pack is Barty Crouch Jr. For the former, he's Trigger from Only Fools and Horses. In fact, it for that role he was most fondly remembered after he passed away.
"If it's a boy, they're going to call him Rodney, after Dave."
I'm American, but I mostly knew him as Owen Newitt from Vicar of Dibley.
I enjoyed this story line. Especially Rose finding out Her Alternative world Parents did not actually have her but had a Dog called Rose that totally cracked me up. It had some heartbreaking moments too though.
One aspect I liked about the new cybermen is the incidental music themes associated with them. They're kinda catchy.
The track "The Cyberman" is a really great one.
If you want a really good story with a parallel Earth, check out "Inferno"
Review inferno, review the trial of a timelord
Inferno is good. The last pary drags slightly but the rest is great.
I loved the pop music parts, with the master it's something I always remember and love! I guess it just depends on your humor 😁
Me too! The first time I watched this episode was right around when Cake by The Ocean came out, I thought the two songs sounded very similar! Lots of good feels!
I've heard the songs in Edgar Wrights films, are picked for comic effect, to satirise and juxtapose the horror/violence, perhaps that's the intent here.
One thing that bugs the heck out of me is the stomps boots, but in the second episode has the sneaky cyberman kill which is the only time you don’t hear the stomping?
I'm watching this one today for my rewatch this year, and I completely agree about how the Cybermen can be used so much better after you've seen the best of the classics (Tomb obviously being probably the peak). I find that NuWho misuses the Cybermen much more than classic series did, and while I find this to be one of the better ones, the only great Cyberman story in NuWho is the Series 10 finale, at least for me.
Yeah the Cybermen in NuWho have been very hit-and-miss - so have most returning monsters tbh. Still, I think the heavy 'suit of armour' style Cyberman has just as much potential as the classic Cyberman if used correctly, and hope to see both of them again.
I don't mind the Cybus Cybermen, they definitely have as much potential as the Mondasian Cybermen or any other variation, it's just a matter of how well written they are. I also wouldn't mind seeing them make a return.
They could compliment eachother very well if used together: the 10th Planet style Cybermen can move silently due to the lack of noisy boots, making them good scouts, and the Cybus Cybermen bring the heavy muscle- err... hydraulic fluid. We almost had this in "World Enoough and Time" - it's an idea that just wants to be developed a little further.
I liked this story thought it had a lot of good elements, and Mickey Smith is good in this episode.
The first Doctor Who story I ever watched! Nearly 13 years ago now!
Same here!
@@xMvP_RAMPAGEX Blimey! I can still remember it, 8 years old at my great Aunts house, the cliffhanger guaranteed that I'd be back next week
@@IsaacWhittakerDakin I remember there was nothing good on tv that night so my dad was like "I used to watch dr who when I was younger" (3rd/4th doctor) and put it on. I never looked back from there. Unfortunately he has never had any interest in the show since when he used to watch it
I don't see anyone talking about how they land on a parallel Earth, a planet identical to Earth but with slight differences, perhaps a nod to Mondas?
I quite liked the use of 'The lion sleeps tonight'. Its such a feel good song that when you pair it with the screams of the people being converted in the background it feels really unsettling, like a horror movie :)
It's trying for that but I don't think the visuals back up the concept.
It was the 1st time we saw the Doctor really team up with the rebels on a world, the 1st time it had movie ambition, 1st time I said "now THAT'S Doctor Who!"
Realizing the one guy was Barty Crouch Sr. kinda ruined the episode for me because now my entire viewing experience is Harry Potter jokes.
Britain really does seem to have too few actors at times....
HELLO FATHER! AAAAGH!
@@MrRjhyt Well, it is smaller than the United States after all... ;)
@@Lia-uf1ir USA! USA!
@@Silverwind87 Well, quantity doesn't mean Quality. :)
This two-parter is one of those thing it's gonna be harder and harder to rewatch now, since as of recently I've now lost both of my grandmothers. The stuff about Mickey's gran always hit me in the gut even when my grandmothers were alive, but now?
Yeah that's gonna hit me like a ton of bricks from now on most likely.
This was my introduction to the Cybermen and I really enjoyed it. Though that could be nostalgia talking.
I like that you see parts of the conversion process from through the eyes of the victim. It really helped instil their horror aspect. Then the heartbreak when the Doctor talks to a cyberman (cyberwoman?) that was converted the night before her wedding. It sold the loss of individuality that’s integral to who the cybermen are.
I really loved it its one of the most underated episodes in my opinion
Huh, I never made the Barty Crouch connection before now.
The worry with the pop songs was definitely more to do them being added to the soundtrack as opposed to the characters playing them. Luckily it's only happened once so far.
I'd have to disagree with you on the tragedy of these cybermen and that it has to come down to just how afraid and unhinged Lumic is. He's so fearful of dying that when he manages to perfect "human.2" it's not just himself he wants to save it's everyone, he truly believes that he's doing everyone a favour and will stop at nothing to get it done. Another thing that springs to mind is when they break the emotional inhibitor on a cyberman and it says things like "I'm so cold" it's just such a heart wrenching scene. While it's more effective with the mondasian cybermen I think even with just this one guy's fear of death it still works. And then not only that but the tragedy of all these unwilling victims being mutilated and forced to live a life they never asked for. That just gets me in particular.
I love the idea of 'The Lion Sleeps Tonight'. It was used to drown out the screams of the victims. It was twisted and awful and I LOVED it. It just wasn't the best song to use
For me Lumic is Davros without the heroic motivation.
Does anybody feel the parallel universe inconsistency of having no Doctor but a Torchwood?
@@xenon8117 Kind of the same feeling. Like the fact that an alternate universe can have its own Cybermen created under _very_ different circumstances (and even Mondosian Cybermen being created separately two different times); the general conditions were set to create a Torchwood, if not the specific conditions.
@@xenon8117 maybe not the only reason but obviously the main reason as far as I know.
Optional Optimism - the MAIN reason was Queen Victoria surviving the werewolf attacks at Torchwood House. The Doctor helped with that sure, but nothing to say she couldn’t have survived by another means in that universe.
What if the parallel doctor is like the master? What if instead of him and the parallel master they both die or all time lord's died or never were in that universe. Perhaps the doctor in the parallel universe calls himself someone else like the professor? The surgeon? The valeyard?
@@roguebritgravy1 the chiropidist??
Two minor little things. The truck that kidnapped/filleted the Homeless? It's marked as 'International electromatics' as in the Troughton Cyberman story 'the Invasion'. And the actor who played Mr Crane (Colin Spaull' was the sadistic 'Lilt' in the Colin Baker story 'Revelation of the Daleks'.
'The show is already dabbling in time travel' in reference to Doctor Who is probably the biggest understatement I've ever heard.
Oh. My. God. I literally never noticed the Barty Crouch thing until I watched the intro.
I actually find it hilarious that whenever the daleks or the cybermen show up it's played as a plot twist despite the fact that they're usually mentioned in the title
I think the idea of having strange music choices (not so much Rosa but definitely with this and the Master) was to show how uncaring the characters are. It seems shocking to have something so horrific being shown against a peppy song so these characters seem all the more unhinged for listening to those songs.
Interestingly the "Lion Sleeps Tonight" playing over the screams of those being converted to Cybermen is based on real history. During the military dictatorship in Argentina in the 70s they played loud disco music to drown out the screams of those being tortured. But I agree Voodoo Child to the Master destroying half the planet was utterly cringe-worthy.
I think these Cybermen would have been more intimidating/meaningful if they'd been something other than Cybermen. Too much cultural baggage for fans of the Classic series. If the aesthetic had been slightly different, and they'd been called something else, the idea of emotionless, rapidly-multiplying robots that rip out our brains for CPUs would be more properly unnerving, imo, especially since these eps give us confirmation that, in some way, the human being used *IS* still in there struggling to get out.
Also, imo, the Master blasting Voodoo Child was actually pretty funny. But the use of The Lion Sleeps Tonight here will never cease to make me grimace and tilt my head in utter confusion.
There's a part of me that thinks that these cybermen are like terminators.
@@roguebritgravy1 Now I'm picturing them saying "delete!" over and over again in a thick Austrian accent :D It would have made their little bitch-off with the Daleks in Doomsday a lot funnier, too...
@@roguebritgravy1 Me I felt strongly remembered at the was THE BORG were presented in STAR TREK. Guess that had been the main influx here.
But also THE SLIDERS had an ingluence here when you compare the way sites, camera angles and cuts had been handled.
I still kind of have a soft spot for these cybermen. I think the marching works, I love that cybermen never run, they move calmy but never stopping. Watching them all corner the Doctor, Rose and Pete really scared me as a kid. I love the parallel world angle instead of Mondas, I think it was a good way to re-introduce them. I just hate the catchphrase.
i think this cyberman 2 parter and world enough and time and the doctor falls are 2 of the best cybermen episode in the modern era
The cyberman who killed Mrs Moor was clearly some kind of stealth mode version because it seemed to just appear behind her and not make any noise..
I understand where you're coming from with the criticism of the Cybermen in this story. However, I think you're missing what this story is really trying to say. This story is a critique of society in a digital age. The people have been consumed by their love of technology. They've become so desperate for the latest tech and updates that they don't think twice before handing over so much power and control to one corporation and more specifically, one power hungry, desperate mad man. A man who is so desperate to survive that he's willing to exploit peoples thirst for new technology and sell them a lie. The disturbing thing is that despite all this, Lumic still genuinely believes everything he's doing is for the benefit of humanity and completely necessary. The writers are coming at it from a totally different angle, but the tragedy of a society destroying itself is still definitely there. It's also scarily pertinent for 2019, let alone 2006!
I also think the writers still make sure to highlight the horrible fate of the humans being converted into these metal creatures. The homeless people being lured into the back of vans with the false promise of being given food is very disturbing. The scenes with the people lined up ready to be converted are quite unsettling. Then the scene with Mrs Moore and the Doctor disabling the emotional inhibitor of that Cyberman/women is pretty emotional , when she starts to remember who she was and that she was getting married the next day. Right at the end, when the Doctor sends out the signal that disables all the Cybermen's emotional inhibitors and one of the Cybermen sees itself in a mirror and starts to cry and you just hear the Doctor say sorry in the back. These people have lost their individuality. They've been dehumanised and been stripped of their identity and the story makes sure to remind you of that fact. I still prefer the classic series' take on the Cybermen, but I think this story does an admirable job at re imagining the Cybermen for a modern audience. Also, as you said. setting this story on a parallel Earth avoids running into the problem of ret conning or contradicting the original concept of the Cybermen. So all in all, it was a job well done.
What annoyed me was when, in Moffat’s era, they used this alternate universe design for the Cybermen of the Doctor’s universe. That made no sense to me.
Philip Hawkins the thing is that those Cybermen couldn’t be the Mondas Cybermen. Mondas Cybermen are all about survival over everything else like he said. Cybus Cybermen are about becoming perfect, about improving and taking over. They’re very different beasts, and I feel like if they weren’t called Cybermen and had a more unique design NO ONE would have issues with them.
On a lighter note though (and I'm pretty certain I'm stealing this gag from an old UA-cam comment I remember reading)
"Hello, father!"
"You are no son of mine. And you will be, upgraded!"
Roger Lloyd Pack was great in only fools and horses but he was not cut out for a villain role in doctor who.
He was a great actor, agree to disagree if he could pull off a hero or a villain
There is an episode of a 70's British anti-terror show called "The Professionals" in which Roger plays the villain of the week: a hitman called Ramos. Roger's performance is fine but they dub him over with a terrible eastern European accent, and in the script he constantly refers to himself in the 3rd person, which is kind of ridiculous; in the physical action scenes he is actually pretty decent. I always forgot that he played Lumic; they did have a habit of casting him as villains now and again, I actually think he did a better job in antagonist roles than he is often given credit for.
I definitely agree with you about the Cybermen. When I was a kid, these two episodes were my first introduction to the Cybermen, so that's what I THOUGHT they were supposed to be (big robots with human brains). I understood the villains motivation, but it doesn't blend well with the overall design of the Cybermen.
As I've got older, and explored more DW material, I understand what the Cybermen are now (and Capaldi's era DID help by bringing back the Mondasian Cybermen). If anything that helped me to also understand how scary and tragic the Cybermen are meant to be, compared to these hulking bulks of metal that look like you could put against each other in robot wars
I really have to disagree on this. I'm familiar with the classic Cybermen and the RTD era Cybermen and I love them both for different reasons. The Cybusmen become a lot better when you stop *needing* them to be the same as the classic Cybermen (they aren't) and appreciate them on their own merits.
The real stinkers were the ones from "Nightmare in Silver" those were just terrible X(
The reason why I like the pop music in earlier new who is because it was used ironically. I've always loved it when music juxtaposed with horrific events, I just find it really funny in a dark, twisted sort of way. Also, the music used in Series 11 (both for trailers and in the actual episodes) is just plain bad tbh.
when u were talking about the issues w shows bringing in parallel worlds and alternate versions of dead characters etc, all i could think of was supernatural doing exactly all those things lol
Really long winded opinion ahead, yeah my views on this episode are complicated so read at own risk.
First of all I loved the concept and exploration of Parallel worlds. I love Mickey this episode. I also loved the villain which by the way... You don't like the stompy boot noise? I just can't comprehend that when it was my favorite part. There was something chilling about it, how when they were running away you could still hear their footsteps coming closer even when you couldn't see them. It kept me on the edge of my seat and feeling very immersed when with what I watching. When I was younger it honestly scared me, especially since the marching was so slow. It give me notions that you could run as fast as you want but it wouldn't matter because unlike you they didn't tire so they didn't have to be fast. They'd tire you out and then get you and you'd know it was coming because you would hear them.
I don't know even as an adult no longer scared there is still something intimidating about the sound of their marching almost clunking noise. It's familiar but not, the sound of marching is not sinister in it self but the heaviness of the step adds a sense of something other which is quite reflective of who the Cybermen are. This sound when played against the music that plays through out the episode always brings me a slight thrill, it's just brilliant. Whilst the version Bill and 12 encountered are now my preferred I still really love this more militaristic version. Also I disagree with your view on them being to robotic the episode practically shoves it in our face every scene the morbid real truth of them. In particulate the scene with the cyberman who first has their emotions back on accident really hit me hard as did the conversion chambers themselves. The fact even class placement rich or poor couldn't save you. I also like the message at the time the episode was trying to make about our reliance on technology.
Secondly and the main reason my view on this episode is complicated is I hate how they wrote Rose. Her jealousy over the Doctor even talking to another women (Lucy(?) the waitress) really stood out to me and not in a good way which when combined with her hypocrisy to Mickey at the end was infuriating. This episode made me I admit to myself I no longer liked season 2 Rose where before I had just been on the fence. In season 1 loved her, she grew as a person when she finally let Mickey go in Boom Town but then they undo this by making her say the whole "What if I need you speech" at the end. To me they ruined her previously established character development and made her regress to who she was before key events. In fact this whole 2 parter regressed Rose a lot to me. Lesson leaned in Father's day? She clearly didn't learn anything given how she acted in regards to Pete and she once again dismissed/ignored the Doctor. I was baffled by her surprise over Mickey, "I suppose we just take him for granted" as if this wasn't something previously established, to the end which I already covered how she dealt with Mickey's departure. What happened to "There's nothing for me here" when talking to her mum and Mickey. The writers either ignored/forgot that progress or they purposely wrote her as emotionally manipulative, either way it didn't sit right with me.
So while I love the villain on the whole I didn't like the episode due to how it shaped my opinion of a character I previously liked. By writing her like series 1 never effected her, adding negative traits season 1 Rose didn't have (alarm bell ringing jealousy) it just really upset me because that wasn't the Rose I'd grown to love. Maybe it wasn't a big deal to you, a lot of people didn't mind it but to me I spent a lot of the episode wondering if they were purposely assassinating Rose's character or if it was an unintentional side effect of making Mickey the focus that they had her slide into old Rose patterns.
I really don’t like these Cyberman either, because they were much more robotic than anything, and I agree with you about the classic ones, which were following an imperative of survival. Also, the delete thing just felt like the writers wanted them to have a catchphrase.
Though I do like the “Excellent” phrase the Cyberleader used in 80’s classic Who.
Very excited for next week.
2:21 There's a Third Doctor story I suggest you should see.
Your opening....omg you're RIGHT! XD I'd completely forgotten
This was the first story that introduced me to the cybermen which are my favorite Doctor Who villains. I understand your view on this version of the cybermen but I still personally find them scary and tragic. The idea of not being given a choice in being a cyberman is much scarier to me.
The cliffhanger @ the end of rise of the cybermen was the 1st bit of Doctor Who.
The Cybermen are great here. They’re scary, they are ABSOLUTELY tragic, and they barely feel like robots, because they’re constantly talking about upgrading, we always see scenes of people getting upgraded in factories, we see the brains inside of the casings, and you can just feel that they used to be human. The only Mondasian Cybermen that felt human were the Tenth Planet Cybermen. I love the delete catchphrase, because it finally gives the Cybermen something to say that’s quick and easy, not something long like “you belong to us... you will become like us.” This is a very well done two parter in my opinion.... and don’t call the Cybusmen... DONT YOU DARE... they’re Cybermen... Cybermen... the huge key that people seem to forget, is that the Cybermen are constantly upgrading, I mean, have you seen the cybernetic technology of today?! It looks like a friggin robot arm on a person, not a cloth mask with a flashlight.
I hope the collapse of the walls between parallel dimensions doesn't hinder Space Time Adventuress Iris Wildthyme lol
Is that "Delete! Delete! Delete!" in the description in reference to the HP reference in the intro?
I never understood why they had to cut the rope on the Cyberman climbing the little ladder. Clearly it was trying to escape with them, not harm them since it realized the horror of what had happened. Pete laughing at it falling to it's death felt very tone deaf. I was reminded of the scene in Serenity where Mal kicks the guy to his reaver-death who tried escaping with the crew. And it made me wonder if Kathryn Janeway had been with them if she wouldn't have convinced the Doctor to save it.
That Cyberman was Lumic. I doubt that he cared about the other Cybermen suffering.
i remember this one i thought it was great but looking at this now i think yeah it hasn't aged to well but i like the Cybermen we got in A Nightmare In Sliver i feel they improved it.
Me, I agree. But I also wonder how much THE SLIDERS had influenced those two episodes because in both parts I felt a strong déjà vu.
13:20 The aspect with the homeless I can understand. Seriousliy it is in the real world not different, who cares about them . They were the perfect first victims for the mad industrialist. But I would not go so far to put this communistic angle in it as in THE REVANGE OF THE POOR as you can find farther down.
It’s sad, he was a great actor but Roger Lloyd Pack passed away in 2014. He’s the guy who played John Lumic in this. I’ll always see him as Owen from The Vicar of Dibley. I like his Bart Crouch too. Anyway, I like this episode I can see what you mean about the Cybermen. Blue tooth ear pieces freak me out though after watching this cause they look so similar to the EarPods. I agree about Mickey too. I love Mickey. His character arc was great.
I think I'm the only one who really loves this episode,
I love the premise and this version of the cybermen.
Check the comments, other folks like it too.
Oh yh David Tennant and Roger Lloyd pack were in Harry potter. Did you know that rlp broke his legs so that's why he's in a wheelchair
They should of reversed the tittles cause Age of Steele wouldn’t have given anything away. It matches the look of the opening shot of part 1 as a mega industrial setting. If the second part was called Rise of the Cyber-Men it spoils nothing. The shows biggest SPOILERS are the episode names. That and the the trailers last Christmas episode would have been so much better if they hadn’t put the Dalek voice on at the end of the trailer.
I quite like this story in isolation - as part of Series 2 this is part of what pulls this year down.
The alternate reality isnt alternate enough to escape from the overall "Modern Day" feel of the series - also 4 episodes in 1 year is too much. It all contributes to a lot of the series feeling very samey.
I love Micky's development in Series 1 & 2 - and the grudging respect / changing attitude the Dr has towards him.
I also like the scientists woman and the way they don't shy away from the fact the Cybermen are still people inside with a few nicely moving scenes.
Overall not perfect but still good.
I appreciate that they were able to capture some of their more horrific nature with the conversion machines being shown and the sounds associated. I really didn't like it when they tried going full on 'Borg' with 'Cybernat' conversion, which doesn't in one that same fear,
This is one of those episodes that I like it more each time I watch it. I didn't like it that much the first time I watched it but by the 6th or 7th times I really like it now
When I was little Revenge of the Cybermen (1975) scared me silly. Now that was a good reveal ☺
The thing with horrific things happening to the sound of pop music is meant to present the villains as callous and uncaring of human life. It's a pretty basic cinematic tactic?
I really want a 'Genesis of the Cybermen' story, just explore their Mondasian origins.
I actually really like the walking sound of the Cybus Cybermen, however the rest of them felt much weaker than previous Cybermen, they needed more of a body horror element and less of a robot element.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but these Cybermen have only appeared here, in the finale, and in The Next Doctor. From Pandorica Opens it was back to the original Cybermen of this universe they just looked like these Cybers.
This was actually an episode I really liked first viewing and like you said knowing how much better the cybermen can be just bugs me
I would've liked it if the Cybermen were destroyed not by pain, but by guilt. Remove the emotional inhibitor, and they now realize what they've done to those innocent humans. Overcome with guilt, they deactivate themselves. That would've been a better way for Lumic to have been defeated.
Yeah, that's like the first episode of Earth-Shock being called, 'Revenge of the Cybermen' or something. Or Spyfall Part One have the title 'The New Master'. Why?
I don't think i've ever seen you talk about this/these episodes until now.
I feel like modern Doctor Who could do with a little more camp
I agree with the fact that they are too robotic. They now have the bloody ability to fly. Ask someone who watched The Tenth Planet in 1966 and they'd laugh at you if you told them that in 48 years time that these almost human-like creatures would be able to do such a thing
Classic series Cybermen deffo went for stealth. And yeah, Spare Parts is very haunting.
I love that micky stays for his nan
2:22 to 3:00 Supernatural in his thirteen season
I basically love everything from the RTD era
that cyberman impression is scary
Thank You! I mean yes the design of the cybermen here is interesting, but cybermen were never something that needed to be reboot. Stuff Davis' "Everything has to be re-invented to fit the modern era" == Something don't need to be changed. And sometimes old school can be visually and thematically more stunning.
I wish there were more comedic episodes in nu-who. Douglas Adams may be gone, but I'd pay good money for an Eddie Izzard scripted episode.
PLEASE NOBODY STEAL THIS STORY/IDEA I'M WORKING REALLY HARD ON IT!
'Silver Nemesis', the last Cybermen story of Classic Who. SPOILERS: The entire fleet was destroyed.
But what if one ship escaped? What if it crashed? What if the few survivors crawled their way to an old base on some planet and fixed themselves up as much as they could? Well, that's exactly what happens.
The Doctor and an expedition crew came across this old base years in the future. When these Cybermen wake up (cause, duh), they send a signal to contact any surviving Cybermen. But... there aren't any. These are the last of the Classic Cybermen. The Cybusmen (currently in their 'Nightmare in Silver' form, but we're getting something new S12, so I'll update) find the signal. They come to wipe out or convert the old Cybermen. BUT! They're purely logic, which gives the Classic Cybermen the advantage. The Cybusmen that come are wiped out and the Classic Cybermen re-establish themselves as the dominant Cybermen, waging war with the Cybusmen for years to come). Cybermen civil war which you could probably get another episode or two out of. Thoughts?
So. We’re told in this episode that Travel between universes was possible when The Time Lords were around. And they’re now around again. Just saying. This is not me clutching at straws since Jodie said she’d love to work with Billie. No sir, not me.
13:25 because she's bananas.
I really liked Mickey in this episode, he was the best part. I didn't like that Jackie was so uncaring and elitist. The part about the dog was hilarious, I laughed at the same time as the Doctor. But it was a fun episode, a good (temporary) exit for Mickey, and a good ending. Even though it was a two-parter, it never felt overly long.
Yes the cybermen were campy, but scifi is a ll about characters. And thats a beautiful exit for mickey in his character arc. Great actor. The other stuff is good too, but mickey. Good job from davies too. He reminds me of joxer from xena who gradially becommes more likable by design.
I quite liked this two-part story, although I wasn't so keen on John Lumic as a character, as he struck me as being too two-dimensional, and I found Roger Lloyd Pack's performance overly campy. Whether it was down to bad direction or not, I don't know but it just made him less believable as Doctor Who villain, as well as a human character. For anyone not familiar with him, they should check him out in long running-role of Trigger, the dopey friend of Del Boy and Rodney in the classic British sitcom Only Fools and Horses which he is so much better in.
Completely agree with you, man. I was overall ambivalent towards the Cybermen at first, as I got into NuWho first.
Then I watched the Classic show, including The Tenth Planet, followed by listening to Big Finish's Spare Parts. Now I think NuWho completely misses the point of the Cybermen (at least until Series 10). Now I actively dislike them.
They seem to have gotten the basic part of it, that the Cybermen sacrifice humanity to convert, but that's pretty much it, and subsequent episodes don't really explore the themes behind them.
The Cybermen are not just a bunch of cyborgs that shout a generic catchphrase and kill people. They're not Dalek knockoffs (and I say that as someone who laments how the Daleks have been mistreated recently). They're the remnants of a dying race of humans who mutilated and dehumanised themselves in a last desperate attempt to survive. They only killed as a last resort as they saw every living thing as vital for conversion and the continuous existence of their kind. They believed they were doing the right thing, in a sense.
This is why the "Delete" catchphrase simply doesn't work: it's counterproductive to how they're supposed to function (and yes, I know about the whole "incompatible" thing, but even that doesn't really work with them). As long as the body is alive and functional, then that's all they need. Honestly, "Delete" is just an example of how the NuWho Cybermen are just copies of the Daleks, which is even more ridiculous. The Daleks work as a warning against extreme xenophobia, fascism and nuclear warfare. The Cybermen work as a warning against our over-reliance on technology. They function well in their own way, and to change that just about undid what Kit Pedler (the man who created the Cybermen) worked for.
The closest thing they had to a catchphrase in Classic Who was really "You shall be like us!", which makes much more sense.
Again, the Series 10 finale did what should have been done sooner. It brought the original Mondasian Cybermen back and did something fresh and new while still remaining faithful to what the Cybermen have been from the beginning. No weakness to gold, no "Delete!", no overpowering, no flying like Iron Man.
Honestly, the parallel world storyline should have been in a separate episode, and should have had the Doctor and his companions end up on either Mondas or Telos, with the Doctor debating about whether to interfere with the Cybermen's creation, in spite of the fact that he may also be rendering an innocent race of humans - the species he loves so much - effectively extinct. Much more dramatic and emotional.
This is just a different incarnation and use of the Cybermen. It would be boring to repeat the exact same story from Classic Who.
@@DsRelaxingSounds Yeah, absolutely. Change needs to happen, especially with a show as old as Doctor Who. It's just I always felt that any adaptation of a source is at its best when it stays true to the source material.
I was thinking of making it as more of a follow up to the Classic storyline, like if the Doctor went to Telos instead of Mondas (like he did in Spare Parts). The story could be about him trying to find another way, or something along those lines. For NuWho fans, it would provide another glimpse into the Doctor's past, as he encounters an enemy with an even more complex relationship than he had with the Daleks, as they're an enemy with more humanity.
With all that said, I do agree that adding new things to something is always the way to go. The show would continue to be more interesting in that regard. Expanding on a concept makes a fresh experience. So, the idea of moving forward with the Cybermen was a good one. I just feel like the delivery was a bit off, because it contradicts some of the things that the Cybermen represented (e.g. "Delete"). It was a change, but not the best one.
But that's just my opinion on the matter. I have been wrong before XD
This was my first doctor who episodes I ever watched, aww memories 😊😊
For me this shares some problems with World Enough & Time, and The Doctor Falls. The upgrades are forced on them. It's not a choice, a necessary sacrifice for survival. Salvation and Damnation combined, in that episode, the Master felt like a distraction.
What? In this two parter lumic decides that the cybermen will convert all of humanity for seemingly no reason whereas in WEAT and the doctor falls they are forced to change because they can't survive on that planet
I'm going to disagree with you. The key difference is that the society in World Enough & Time was actively dying and they all knew it. So it becomes the work of the society as a whole driving them to cyberization, even if the individuals at the ground level don't all know. I think narrowing that down to literally one guy does much more to dilute the entire thing.
@@CouncilofGeeks I apologise. It's a while since I watched it. I didn't recall the actively dying part. I don't recall seeing the peril. We don't see the suffering caused by those not being enhanced. Having the master being behind it... somehow, as if he (somehow) orchestrated the cyberization. Anyway, as previous. I don't think I've watched it since broadcast.
My straight best friend can't stand the ending of this two-parter; she says it's morally messed-up how the Doctor ultimately forces mass suicide through the Cyberman ranks. And, while I'd need to rewatch it to see how I feel about the subject, I can definitely see where she's coming from on that.
It's a pretty gruesome way to end the threat if you think about it.
You're not wrong.
You really are too grumpy sometimes. I thought A Girl lin the Fireplace is one of the best episode of the show and that this is a perfectly good two parter.
There's nothing wrong with pointing out an episode's flaws, and for some people the depiction of the Cybermen here is a *big* flaw
Nah it isn't.
@@clara_bandicoot For some, yes. Personally I really like these Cybermen. They are terribly underrated.
I secretly find all of the Cybermen in the revived era to be super boring (not counting the Mondasian cybermen in Series 10)
@@WiloPolis03 Yass! The new Mondasian Cybermen were great! I still consider the ones in this two-parter to be their equals, though. Other than that, most of the Cyberman stories in NuWho have ranged from a bit mediocre to insultingly stupid :\
Honestly this is the episode(s) that got me into Doctor Who in the first place, and the Cybermen are still my favorite villains in the show.
But my GOD it sucks. The Cybermen deserved a lot better than this, especially considering it was supposedly inspired by Spare Parts, a MUCH better story.
I prefer MacRae's other episode, The Girl who Waited (my favourite episode ever).
Hey congrats on winning a category on the Whotube awards!
Thank you kindly.
@@CouncilofGeeks Np
I feel like the Cybermen have kind've lost their way. Like, the assimilation aspect has pretty much been rendered mute at this point and the Cybermen now seem to just be generic robots.