"If somebody is that toxic, that hazardous, that dangerous to your life, I don't care if it's your family, you are within your rights to cut them out". You have no idea how much I need to hear this sometimes. Thank you.
YES THANK YOU! This might be my least favorite ending in all of Doctor who and also why I dislike rose more in series 2. He was mentally abusive and horrible. The fact that rose tells his son to go to him, makes me very angry.
I just saw this comment and I just wanted to say I hope you're doing ok and if there's anyone toxic in your life you were able to set good boundaries or get away from them if you have to, take care man 💜
Ever since my mom initiated divorce proceedings and my dad went from well hidden emotional abuse to 'call the cops because I'm scared he will actually physically hurt me'-raging, I've been really sensitive towards the danger of the message that "they're still family you should forgive them and let them back into your life" No, just no, he's nearly 70 years old and he spent most of his life being an emotionally abusive ***hole, I don't believe you if you claim he's changed in the last 5 years and quite frankly my life is a lot better without that emotional abuse.
You're right to be angry about Rose's "Go to him". It's not only the wrong advice, but also a stigma victims/survivors of abusive family members have to deal with. My sister and I managed to get away from an abusive mother and while that was a good thing, the entire of the rest of our family see us as 'disloyal' and well-meaning friends say things like "You should try to make up with her though. It's your mum." These things add to the trauma. The actor who plays the wire is Maureen Lipman CBE. She's pretty famous and well-respected here in the UK. I'm annoyed that they cast such a talent to play such an awful character. Doctor Who has a habit of doing that.
I hate the ending too. The mother and grandmother are his family too. Rose had no right to force her emotional baggage on a stranger. This is what made me angry at Ryan in the episode “It Takes You Away”. Not everyone’s situation is the same as yours.
I actually always liked this episode. Not one of my favourites by a VERY long shot, but I never minded it as much as most people seemed to. I found the father character actually really convincing. I don't know why it worked for me and not for you - I haven't personally known people like that, but for some reason it really rang true. You say he didn't have any non-cartoonish moments - I disagree. At the beginning of the episode there's a short scene of the family, with Tommy asking his dad for a tv. It IS a really short scene, but the whole atmosphere of the house and the father felt much warmer, and there is a moment of real affection between the Tommy and his dad. Throughout the rest of the episode I also found him to be disturbingly convincing. My mum had her own little catchphrase she'd snap whenever she got angry about something, so maybe that helped sell the "I AM TALKING" line to me. As far as the thing at the end with Rose, though? Completely with you there - I was about 10 when I first watched this episode, and even at that age that moment really grated on me. I remember staring at Rose after she said that, thinking "Wait... What? That can't be a good idea." The guy may well love his family - I maintain his actions throughout were a misguided way of trying to protect them from something he was scared of - but he CLEARLY didn't respect them at all. I was half expecting the Doctor to step in and say "No, let him go." The Wire also worked for me. The "Feed me" got very tiring after a while, but my impression of the creature was that it was being overcome by it's greed and instincts the closer it got to it's goal. I don't remember exactly, but the appearance of a woman was simply a borrowed image, right? I felt that the longer the episode went on the less the Wire bothered to keep up appearances and reign in it's instincts.
It's kinda sad how there's *almost* a gem there with Rose - dead dad, rejected by the alternate version of him - being the one to push the son to keep a connection with his father. Imagine Rose and Tommy having bonded a little over their suboptimal childhoods, and when she says, "He's your dad," Tommy replies... "Exactly; he's not yours." Without venom or pain; simply a long-sought peace that he finally has. ...I got condolences for my so-very-estranged father's passing (which kind of spat in the face of WHY we were estranged), and I realised it was because they were coming from people thinking about *their* actually fatherly dads. There's no way they could have met mine. So, that was the spirit I ended up taking their messages in.
3:55 As a kid I didn't have any kind of analytical mind to have much of an opinion on the rest of the episode, but I remember cringing HARD at this bit.
I am so glad I wasn't the only person pissed off with Rose trying to encourage the kid to forgive his dad. I grew up with an abusive father, -& it was implied the father in this episode was abusive-so that action *always* grated on me. I always put it down to Rose having "Daddy Issues".....
I think what they were trying to do was have rose to get Tommy to forgive his dad cause he wouldn't always be there. But his actions were unforgivable and they shouldn't of gone there and it didn't work
Roses dad died. She wouldn't know what it would be like to have one and had a taste of a full family in father's Day and she wanted Tommy to keep having one. Bad idea full rose with no dad issues.
@@roguebritgravy1 you literally described her "Daddy Issues". Her misguided belief that *any* Dad is better than no Dad-based simply off of her experience of having no father.
I’m also an abuse victim and I was really glad that Nathaniel noticed that. I was very caught off guard by that scene on first viewing and I have to skip it on rewatches and pretend it doesn’t happen so I don’t get upset. Normally things like that wouldn’t get to me but Doctor Who and especially the Tenth Doctor’s run has a special place in my heart so hearing Rose say that and if I remember correctly she says “you’re smart, so don’t leave it at that” was offensive to me on a personal level. I had to remind myself that the viewpoint that this was a good thing was the writer’s position, not Rose and the Doctor’s and now I just pretend it never happened and don’t consider them approving of an abuse victim needing to be the one to forgive and reach out to their abuser to be canon. (Edited to insert that I was younger and in a rougher place emotionally when I first saw it, it probably would’ve pissed me off but not really stuck in my mind the way it did if I’d seen it now.)
I had totally forgotten about the end scene where the son runs after the father and they walk off together. That one scene is a complete write-off for me. It’s not realistic for this kid to be afraid of his dad, stand up to him and then run after him, seemingly forgetting that this guy has done horrible things up until this moment. It completely ruins the dad getting actual consequences for his shitty behaviour. I would rather have a moral about actions having consequences, than unconditional forgiveness to people who haven’t yet earned forgiveness.
YES! I despise that Rose sends Tommy after his dad because "he's your dad" like that overrides the fact that he's an abusive douchecanoe. One of my least favourite things that happens in far too much media, the idea that you owe an abusive or absent or just generally bad parent another chance. No. I really don't, thanks. Happens too much in real life too, like people who've lost good fathers they loved can't grasp that no, actually, having a really crappy father in your life isn't better than not having one. As for the father generally, think it might be the cultural thing because yeah, never struck me as unrealistic and the " I AM TALKING! " is something I definitely saw from men of a certain age when I was a kid. It's a shame the Wire turns terrible and the father thing is poorly handled because there's some great stuff too. I'm always impressed by how the interrogation scene is shot so it switches the person who's in control really visually. And the faceless people are super creepy. And Ten and Rose are having a ball, clearly. But ugh, those two things spoil it so much.
I had a friend growing up, high school/middle school, whose dad was so much like the dad from this episode. He made my skin crawl so much when I first watched it. He wasn't well acted, but I knew his character. When rose sent the kid after him, I was livid.
That message at the end was only topped by In the Forest of the Night making out kids shouldn't be treated with medication, as far as downright toxicity. I can let the latter go to a point, because it felt like an unintended byproduct of inattentive writing, but Idiot's Lantern feels more malicious in that it went out of its way to present that message
Thank you for the comment about the "go to him" moment, and media's heavy pushing of the idea that you should forgive any family member for any behaviour "because they're your dad/mom/great uncle's bestie" ... it's a super toxic trope and mostly one that isn't challenged.
I have 1 Issue with your review for this episode. Despite all your points being valid and you going over a lot of the episode there's one short scene that I think should be appreciated and discussed more. It's memorable, it shows the doctor unveiling how hypocritical the beliefs at the time were. It doesn't save the episode but it certainly should be remembered when discussing it as a decent highlight. I dub thee the "What Gender is the Queen?" Scene.
I'm so glad you pointed out that really toxic mentality that no matter what your family does to you or anyone else, you should forgive them and love them anyway. I grew up with two really bad parents and I'm so tired of people and media looking down on me for deciding I don't want either of them in my life. Family only means so much at a certain point, and you should never have to risk your emotional, mental, or physical health to stick by terrible people just because you share genetics.
I see this in movies and tv all the time. 'Family is everything.' No. Being treated with respect, and kindness and love, having your feelings validated, letting you have dignity in your life, that is everything. Being related by blood does not mean you are somehow obligated to look past abusive treatment, cruelty, unkindness. If that's your family, you have every right to reject them and make a family of your own choosing.
I never particularly liked this episode, and it was always that ending that bothered me the most. You are not obliged to comfort your abusers or help your abusers, even if they are family.
In case you didn't know Maureen Lipman, who plays "the Wire", is a "British National Treasure", not one of our best but definitely on the list. My sense of why Rose told Tommy to go after his father is simply because she never knew Pete.
Fun Fact In German THE WIRE was translated as DER ÄTHER ( THE AETHER ) Ths is what the broadcasting waves were called in Germany up to the late Sixties. UND WRI BEGRÜSSEN UNSERE ZUSCHAUER AUS DEM ÄTHER AN DEN FERNSEH-EMPFANGSGERÄTEN BEI SICH ZU HAUSE. Still remember this from watching TV as a kid in the Mid Sixties. The German Episode Title is DIE GLOTZE, that was also a prejudistic commen viewpoint to the early TVs. From GLOTZEN - looking dumb. Like nowdays with Computergames or UA-cam watching it was said that it would make stupid. Hence i love this episode.
The only thing I think of when I hear the Wire screaming, "Hungry," and "Feed Me!" is Little Shop of Horrors. I start looking around for Rick Moranis. I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you said, which is unusual for me. Good video. :-)
Y'know, I may be the only one who thinks this, but I don't hate Mark Gatiss nearly as much as other people. If only because I believe that he understands the franchise more than RTD and Moffat. His book stuff is absolutely marvellous. Nightshade, The Roundheads and Last of the Gaderene are great books. And Invaders from Mars is a criminally underrated Big Finish audio. Even some of his TV stuff isn't too shabby either. The Unquiet Dead is really good, Night Terrors is Fear Her done right, I think Sleep No More gets too much hate and Cold War, The Crimson Horror and Empress of Mars are great fun as well. And I think that An Adventure In Space and Time was the best thing to come out of the 50th anniversary. Mark knows when to have fun in his stories, but also have a sense of urgency. I admire his enthusiasm and passion for the show, and I would have actually wanted him to be the showrunner as opposed to Chibnall. That said, this story is definitely not one of his stronger ones. One of the most average Doctor Who stories that I have ever watched. And this was a story where I really didn't like the 10 and Rose relationship.
I'm glad someone else likes Mark Gatiss aswell, I was beginning to think I was the only one. I would have taken him over Chibnall as showrunner any day of the week, night terrors and the crimson horror are classics in my book and like you said his books are great aswell
I was more confused by than hated Sleep No More. With the Video topping and tailing the episode I wasn't sure when it was meant to have been shot/released/broadcast. I didn't know if it was electronic, and spreading that way, or if one of the people rescued was 'contaminated', I thought it was a two-parter?!
@@MrRjhyt It was apparently supposed to be a 2 parter, with the second part being in series 10. However, due to the absolute storm of negative reception that that episode got, it was scrapped.
I think Gatiss would be an excellent producer. He doesn't always write an excellent story, but he's better than people make him out to be. And I LOVE Invaders From Mars!
@@rocklobsterjwt As I understand it, the writers take a brief from the showrunner and I think Gatiss suffers from that more than most. RTD and Moffatt gave him stories that maybe they'd write better, maybe another writer would do better, but Gatiss is better when he has a free hand. His experience and strength is in writing original material where he has a high level of creative control. An example would be Victory of the Daleks where I'm sure I remember him saying that the brief was "spitfires in space". That would certainly explain why his Doctor Who TV episodes, although often not as bad as some people make out, are disappointing. All the more so because we know how good he can be. At the risk of really sounding like an apologist, I sometimes wonder if it becomes a problem that he loves the show too much; it doesn't always help to be so close to the subject matter.
i completely agree with you on the thing at the end with Rose. he was an abusive jerk, and the fact that the episode framed Tommy going back to him as a good thing pissed me off too. i mean you hit all the points pretty well, but yeah, just because someone is blood family doesn’t mean you have to always love them or choose to have relations with them or whatever.
The Wire's accent is called "received", which is considered trustworthy and loyal; often British newsreaders have this accent. As a man of Liverpool, I fucking hate the accent lmaoo. But it's often used for British villains, and I can certainly see why.
2:44 That's actually an interesting thing to keep track of when binging through the series with the mention of the Tardis taking the Doctor wherever he NEEDS to go instead of where he wants to in The Doctor's Wife.
This episode’s biggest sin (aside from the many you detailed in your video) was not naming Mr. Magpie Seymour. I swear, if they were going to lean into the camp that much they might as well have gone all in. It would at the very least made her screaming “Feed me!” a little bit more tolerable, if not a tad hilarious.
As someone who grew up with an abusive father, I really appreciated your rant. When they're that bad, you gotta cut that garbage out of your life for your own health. Rose was definitely not in the right about this, even if it might make sense for her character.
I totally agree with every point you made about the father here. I didn’t see anyone mentioning it so I thought I was being too hard on that character, but now it makes me feel a bit better to see that I’m not the only one with that opinion 😅 and I totally get how angry you got towards the end, because people (regardless of whether they’re characters on TV or people in real life) do keep saying that you can’t cut bonds with a close family member, and that is very harmful.
The idea that you *have* to forgive someone for any reason is absolute shit. It doesn't matter if they're your family, or if they've "tried to change", or whatever. It's your decision, not anyone elses. & even if you *do* choose to forgive someone, that doesn't mean they've suddenly got the right to be a part of your life again. Forgiveness & remorse & whatnot don't erase what someone did in the past.
I agree with you about the father. I have similar outlook on some of my family members like my brother, my father and maybe my sister. My mother says that because of my father's blood that I'm unsympathetic, that I have no sympathy for my family. I think it's the opposite, I have so much sympathy that I cant push myself to feel/care for them since they dont feel or care about themselves or anybody around them.
Your comments about family - I nod my head furiously. I have seen the authority of the word "family" used and abused to validate and normalise the most unacceptable, systematic behaviour. While I actually fairly enjoy the episode - particularly in its evocation of place, time and attitudes - this is indeed a problem.These continue to be the best Who reviews on the net.
As a person who had to deal with multiple really toxic people (including my father, but also non-family people), I'm TOTALLY WITH YOU regarding that rant about the father and the son at the end of the episode. I actually didn't dislike that character's writing as much as you do, though. But when you started ranting about that redemption at the end, I was like "THIS, THIS, *SO MUCH THIS*" because NO, NO ONE IS *EVER* OBLIGED TO DEAL WITH TOXIC PEOPLE, and NO it just DOESN'T MATTER if it's family or not. So, to everyone reading this who have toxic people in their lifes: KICK THEM OUT OF YOUR LIFE. I know it's difficult, sometimes it seems to be impossible (especially if you're underaged and it's your parents, for example). But *please* do not stick to toxic people just because you feel obliged to, or because it seems too difficult, or because you don't want to hurt them or something (if they behave in a toxic way, it's their own responsibility and they have to deal with the consequences). You all are important, please take care of yourself. 💜
I always forget about this episode. It is apt that this video launched today because I was at the Alexandra Palace (the place the Doc goes to at the end to save the day) to see the snooker. All I thought was two things... I am glad I forget about this episode because it is awful and then also how terrified I would be to climb up that tower... it is HUUUUGE!!!!!
I actually quite liked this episode but for some reason however that bit where Rose encouraged the boy to go after his dad did bother me a little bit? This is definately better than love or monsters. ( I am really looking forward to your review on that one - lol)
I quite like the LINDA parts of "Love and Monsters". It's just about the only time I remember seeing Marc Warren not playing some level of arsehole, plus him (despite him usually playing dicks), Moya Brady, Kathryn Drysdale and especially Shirley Henderson are on my "people who'd be a good Doctor list". OK the Aborzobaloff is crap and the time it took "LINDA" to get suspicious is bad character insight/development as they're there because they'd pretty clearly conspiracy types, but as a social awkward person I always get a warm feeling inside when groups of social awkward people get the chance to make friends.
The thing I can never forgive this episode for is the callous way that the Doctor and Rose force their way into a family home and proceed to bully the father (he's not a nice guy, but they don't know that) whilst nudging and winking at each other as if to say, "Aren't we clever? This poor slob doesn't stand a chance against us." I found it to be loathsome. Also, the wonderful Maureen Lipman (the Wire) was horribly wasted in her one-and-only appearance in Who; and with the addition of the ridiculous face-stealing strategy, and the advice Rose gives to the abused son at the end, this story still ranks for me as the worst Who story of all time.
I actually completely forgot about this episode to the point that when I saw your video on ten worst episodes of the tenth Doctor (which was only a few months ago as I'm rather new to this channel) I went back and watched it. And I have two comments to make. At the point where The Wire goes "Feed Me!" I responded with "Feed me Krelborn, feed me now!" And secondly and more importantly, the father in that family feels too real to me. Because he's basically my grandfather. And yeah, I get what you're saying about people having nuance, and yes, this is true, but when you've dealt with someone like that, it still hits way too close to home. For that reason, I love the moment when Ten shouts at him "AND I'M NOT LISTENING" so much I could forgive this episode for a lot of things except what Rose does. What Rose does is so not okay. The truth is, not everyone gets a decent father and some people are better off without theirs. And that kid probably would have been. I know my aunts would be much more well-adjusted people if my grandmother had kicked him out way back when, and my mom would have been better off too, she's just a lot tougher than they are.
I lived in Britain in the late 1960s -- Troughton was *my* Doctor -- and the father was similar to the father of several of my neighborhood friends. (As an American, I went to American school, but went to ballet classes and other after school things in my neighborhood.) The Wire was so perfectly after school telly that I love her. One of my favorite scenes in Tennant's era is the one with the detective.
Here after your Redemption through Death video premier. I have noticed that for LGBTQ people and people from abusive homes. We get that sometimes cutting someone out is life saving and needs to be done. Its those who have never had that moment where your mother or father says or does something so hurtful that you can't go back words that a burnt into your mind because they never should have been thought let alone said. "I wish you were never born" "I hate that your my kid." and other comments like that, some of which I have personally had to endure from my own mother before I came out as LGBTQ. So cutting someone out is sometimes necessary even if its in situations where maybe its not their fault (strokes, mental illness) you can't chain yourself to that sinking anchor because it will drag you down with it. LGBTQ people know that found family is just as vital as blood I wish media would catch up.
I agree about the ending. I can’t watch that specific episode because of that. The dad was terrible and the doctor put him in his place and then rose under cuts it
Dude I LOVE YOU FOR CALLING ROSE OUT FOR SAYING GO TO HIM!!! I hate that idea perpetuated that blood is the most important thing, and I totally am with you that sometimes it's safer and healthier for you to remove yourself from dangerous toxic people. Man you're getting an extra vigorous push of the subscribe button. That idea is just a huge sticking point for me. I mean I love your content anyway, but YESSS GOLD STARS FOR SLAMMING ROSE FOR DOING THAT AND PROJECTING HER OWN DADDY ISSUES ON SOMEONE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION!!!!!!!!!!!
I can understand why you might think the father is a comical character bases on his obsession with control and his accent. At this time in Britain, you would most likely come across these people regularly, ex soldiers who wanted control but didn't know what they were doing. I think he is a real character and not a joke. He wasn't an abusive father so why should Rose not have encouraged the son to run after the father? The end of the episode is a valuable lesson in forgiveness. Many families had people like this in them. You still meet people like the father today.
Karkat Vantas at that era of time he wouldn't be considered at all abusive. Many fathers were very stern and controlling with their sons. After the War there was a feeling that the horrors of the war were not talked about and the emotion started to build up in people like the father. Basicly. There was nothing special about the father or the situation the family was in. Many Many other teenage boys were in this situation. It was the norm.
Aurora Not by today's standards but what you are failing to understand is that I am talking about a historical story and I was trying to give you an insight into life in Britain during 1953 not a modern day episode where these spy of characters would not work. Sorry if I caused any offence.
@@Rod35477 You're good, I see what you were trying to do :) I just wanted to point out that someone from our time probably would have reflected upon the fathers actions - with the mindset that abuse is bad, even if it was socially acceptable at the time they were in - and not encourage the son to reconcile with him, with the reasoning being: he is your father. If that made any sense at all (English is not my first language)
This episode is a weird one because in essence you are bang on - its poorly executed when it should have been great - the faceless people creeped me out because it was taken from a 70's show "Saphire and Steel" which did a similar thing that was really creepy. Now - the Father figure.... what I think they were going for is this portrayal of 1950s Britain - at a time when young people who had just come out of War, many who didnt even know their Dads (my Father met my Grandfather when he was five when he returned from War) and (in the case of this type of character) the only way they could function would be to treat their family like a military operation - devoid of love and emotional connection (possibly even suffering PTSD) and so to avoid a connection would wear this persona like a mask. Also this is the start of the revolt that led into the 60s - the ordinary working class were determined to move away from a victorian class divide - juxtapose that with a royal coronation and you have the clash between the old traditions and a new generation of awakening. Had this been fully developed and explored with solid writing and better cast the you would be looking at a much more solid representation of the period and time of change. Its a pity that Gatiss missed the mark by a mile because it had the makings of a really good Drama.
Yeah, I was unsure why I didn't like this episode, it's always one that I've never liked coming back to, this video summed up some of my issues quite well really. The father has no real human moments that makes the horrible things he did better, the episode straight up tries to act as though the kid should give his dad another chance without having the dad put ANY work into redeeming himself and the enemy is uncomfortably written in a VERY bad way, the wire is a clever concept but it should never have degenerated into just screaming feed me or hungry.
The lady who plays the wire, is actually a very well established British actress. Could basicly play any role she wants. I think the point of the "hungry/feed me" thing was to get kids screaming it running round the play ground almost becoming a catch phrase, like "are you my mummy?" Don't think it worked. I agree with most about the father. He was very much a man of his time, a time when the English were extremely patriotic and proud. I would have liked to see a softer side to him too. Would have justified the end more. If it was portrayed that he needed the input of a new generation to see the new England. Show he was willing to change but didn't know how
Unpopular opinion I absolutely adore this episode, not ironically. I like the character interactions, some great lines, the faceless grandma was terrifying, I didn’t think the dad was bad since they didn’t imply the dad came back to the family or anything (just that the son is going to try to have a relationship with him) and I ship The Doctor and Rose so this was great. Sue me
Thinking of this episode reminds me of what is happening with Jodie Whitaker. Today people think. Oh how great pay Doctors were. Thirteen had ruined Who. But then we're look back at this series and we're like, of three of the worst episodes ever. So maybe today's Doctor isn't so bad. In fact I think today's Doctor is great
This episode was so impactful to me, that I forgot the dad was even a character past the flag argument scene at the beginning. This episode had the Doctor's rubber-soled shoes blocking his electrocution, and that's about all I remembered in detail. Glad to know I was happier in life before being reminded of the rest of it.
I actually love rants. Cant wait for love and monsters and fear her videos. (And Lazarus Experiment, Victory of the Daleks, Lets kill hitler etc.) Keep up the great work
Speaking to Season 2's weak episodes, it feels like they were trying things behind the scenes. With 'Love and Monsters', they learned important lessons about Doctor-Lite, and Companion-Lite episodes. Which lead to excellent eps, like Midnight and Blink. Also don't make your monster a child's creation, and jam it in at the end with a techno-fix. 'Fear Her', was the low-budget episode, to allow better effects in the Two-parter. It was perhaps too influenced by the upcoming olympics. For me, part of the appeal of Who, is the relentless upbeat, redemptive nature of the show. I cried at the ending. Also nice for him to investigate an alien phenomenon, and it's not malicious, the Doctor as healer always fills me with hope. I hope you see more positives when you re-watch them.
Idk if I agree with you about the dad being a joke of a character, (it's been a while since I watched this episode) but I do agree with you about "go to him because he's your dad" was just a nope nope nope moment for me. Like maybe you shouldn't encourage kids to forgive abusive parents just because they did the BARE MINIMUM of being a parent? no thanks, doctor who. bad moral.
I couldn't agree with you more (I tried but my head started to hurt) about the f'd up way that the media pushes acceptance of someone simply because they are family. I'm dealing with exactly that in my life. The woman I love has been abused by her mother since she was very little. And she's still being abused. Though not officially diagnosed, we're certain that she's mentally ill. Because she absolutely a jekyll-and-hyde type personality. But no matter how many times I beg my fiancé to cut the woman out of her life, she was raised on _that massage._ Whereas from my point of view, the woman doesn't deserve the title of mother. She simply gave birth to her. The rest must be earned. I cannot be there all the time as we are in separate cities right now trying to move and sell our houses. It's driving me crazy. On one level I do understand an abused child, no matter how old, may look to the last time they were abused with a hope that _it will be the last time._ But what's reinforcing that skewed perception, or rather reinforcing that misplaced hope, is exactly that media message you noted. Such a person must be removed from one's life.
At least you get to do The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit before those next 2 stories! The contrast in quality between TIP/TSP and The Idiot's Lantern, Fear Her and Love and Monsters is staggering. It's like a sandwich where you've got a filling made by professional chef, but the bread is Tesco blue-and-white striped budget bread that's all soggy because it got dropped in a puddle. The Impossible Planet absolutely NAILS the claustrophobic feel of an isolated space station, the entire supporting cast is excellent, the guy who gets possessed has such a perfect face for the role with its chiselled menace, we get introduced to The Ood, "Satan" works way better as Doctor Who villain than he really ought to, and the pacing is spot on. The contrast between the chaos happening in the space station and the absolute deathly silence of the ruins below really adds to whole scope of the episode, and you really get a feeling that the planet should never have been visited by man or any other race, under any circumstances. The episode was so good that Chris Chibnall decided to do a really watered-down, derivative version of it in season 3.
For me, Fear Her is the bottom of the barrel. This one is right on top of it. Love and Monsters is definitely in the lowest quartile, but not sure where.
Yesss I love these videos! Personally this episode had SO much potential especially in modern world, we’re always looking at our screens. It could’ve been a great villain but it just shouts “feeeeeed meeeee” constantly and has no character, the father of the family is so cringe, I kinda like rose in this but she’s still ehh. Just a dull episode that’s forgettable. 0/10. There’s nothing I like about it. Also, why did the kid forgive his dad in the end? He was absolutely horrible and yeah it’s his dad and you only get one but still.
Note: Commenting before watching the video. I don't remember a lot about Idiots Lantern apart from the villain saying "Hungry" about a thousand times and the awful dad.
I wonder if the sheer, visceral disgust for the particular "You can't choose your family" or "You always have to forgive your family" messages comes from being part of the LGBTQ community. Because since coming out, I've had to cut some toxic people out of my life. Some of them being family. And while they can earn forgiveness, they aren't entitled to it. And I hear stories about more people, who had to cut ties with even the closest family members. This message (While well intentioned), can be dangerous.
For a while I would emulate the way the Wire said, "HUNGRY" when it was mealtime. Even my Whovian friends didn't know what I was doing, so I dropped it.
Whilst I agree with your condemnation of Rose's wrong-headed advice at the end of the episode, I find much to like about this one. It is certainly the most peculiarly British episode of Season two & feels very much like a Classic Era Who. Were it the Seventh Doctor & Ace, or even the Third Doctor & Jo, it would play out in much the same way. Perhaps it feels artificial in that it portrays a modern British view of what the post-austerity '50s were like, but that is appropriate given Rose's role as audience surrogate. It made me think of Ace in Remembrance of the Daleks. It also winks at Sapphire & Steel with the faceless people. In using Maureen Lipman as the face of the Wire, it consciously recalls BBC received pronunciation, Joyce Grenfell & Enid Blyton style Englishness, all with tongue firmly in cheek. It is truly a nostalgia piece & coming after the clunky, unsubtle Rise/Age of Steel two parter, feels like the Doctor is coming home.
Series 2 : Bad episode Good episode Great episode Great episode Okay 2 parter Terrible episode Amazing 2 parter Terrible episode Bad (but I think underrated) Great finale
I don't mind the Wire as a villain as I can appreciate the camp element. Not a favorite character of mine but still. I did like the faceless people and ten's darker edge. I did not care at all for the father or that last scene. This definitely one of Gatiss's weaker stories.
After World War II, my father also acted as the "King of his castle." He didn't behave as the guy in this episode, but I had friends who's fathers did act that way. BTW, I'm from the Liverpool area in the U.K.
A lot of people acted like that. The Victorian era created a social paradigm that never really got to resolve because the next half a century was a meat-grinder. People dont understand the cost of the world wars in terms of what it did to society.
This episode solidified my perception of Rose as a girl with daddy issues. Series 1 often made this clear with the dynamic of the Doctor and Rose's relationship. Nine had a paternal element to him when traveling with his teenage companion, and she was looking to fill a void in her life that her mom and Mickey couldn't fill. Now she's got Ten as a boyfriend instead of a father figure (even though Ten definitely doesn't feed into that narrative until Mickey actually leaves the picture). And the daddy issues are still there. She lets her own trauma get in the way of seeing a truly toxic situation.
As a Latina, the father came off as a macho guy for me. So I found him quite believable (and easy to hate) in that sense. The best moment of this episode was when his wife kicks him out, and the worst was when Rose tells the kid to go to him "because he's your father". Never mind that he had zero compassion for his mother in law. Blood does not make family. I do like the rapport between the Doctor and Rose when they first step out of the Tardis, but it goes downhill from there. Oh and those that think that Doctor Who has never been PC, there's the part where the Doctor chides the father for the "woman's work" comment by reminding him that the soon to be Queen is a woman.
The funny thing is Rose’s telling the boy to go to his dad was about the only thing I did like about this episode (other than the growing rapport between 10 and Rose). I have had my fair share of “Daddy pain,” and you don’t make peace with it by just cutting him off. You just become bitter and self-centered like the one you blame for your suffering. Yes, it was too soon to reach out to him, but it’s a 45 minute show. Simplistic family solutions come with the territory.
TBH I'm shocked it ever got past the writers' room. Someone should have enough insight to flag up just one of the things it got so wrong. I've been watching Nu Who back on the BBC since 2020 ( it's really been depressing tbh ) & I just got up to TIL a month ago, the really odd thing is you can't stream it w/o the cast commentary & that's so muted as to be inaudible so you can't hear either the soundtrack or the commentary. It's as if the BBC know they shouldn't have made it & only make it available for fan service. Really weird.
Well UK rarely uses the "writer's room" format that's so common in the US. The scripts really only pass through two or three people before being handed to actors/directors/etc. The writer does it on their own and it goes to the script editor and possibly the showrunner, though usually mostly for a continuity pass. It's not like how it is in the US where not only did somebody have to have a bad idea, but a whole room of people let it on through (or were possibly fully in favor).
@@CouncilofGeeks Yeah, sorry for the sloppy short-hand. The problem I have with Nu Who is it puts too much power in the show runners hands ( something that seems unique in British drama afaik ). You look at the number of times Classic Who's Script Eds./Producers ordered re-writes ( Skip all this if you want, read back & it's over-detailed; Pyramids of Mars & Hand of Fear, both by the same author, had to be so overhauled he took his name off them; JNT insisted on renaming a character in Terminus-she was originally named ''Yoni'' & he had to explain to Steve Gallagher what that meant-& he had Curse of Fenric toned down considerably as he thought it too sexualised. Colony in Space originally had a female prison guard & the Head of Drama's exact words to Terence Dicks were ''I'm not having a Woman in kinky boots with a whip being sadistic in Dr Who!'' ) it's surprising how many Nu Who scripts seem like first drafts in comparison. Some episodes suffer from the glaringly obvious fact that no one said ''No'' at the time, I don't know whether that's to do with RTD's management style or just the zeitgeist/high they were all on 20 years ago. If someone had gone to Douglas Adams with Aliens of London I doubt even he'd have tolerated flatulent aliens.
"If somebody is that toxic, that hazardous, that dangerous to your life, I don't care if it's your family, you are within your rights to cut them out". You have no idea how much I need to hear this sometimes. Thank you.
YES THANK YOU! This might be my least favorite ending in all of Doctor who and also why I dislike rose more in series 2. He was mentally abusive and horrible. The fact that rose tells his son to go to him, makes me very angry.
I just saw this comment and I just wanted to say I hope you're doing ok and if there's anyone toxic in your life you were able to set good boundaries or get away from them if you have to, take care man 💜
Ever since my mom initiated divorce proceedings and my dad went from well hidden emotional abuse to 'call the cops because I'm scared he will actually physically hurt me'-raging, I've been really sensitive towards the danger of the message that "they're still family you should forgive them and let them back into your life" No, just no, he's nearly 70 years old and he spent most of his life being an emotionally abusive ***hole, I don't believe you if you claim he's changed in the last 5 years and quite frankly my life is a lot better without that emotional abuse.
Oof
You're right to be angry about Rose's "Go to him". It's not only the wrong advice, but also a stigma victims/survivors of abusive family members have to deal with. My sister and I managed to get away from an abusive mother and while that was a good thing, the entire of the rest of our family see us as 'disloyal' and well-meaning friends say things like "You should try to make up with her though. It's your mum." These things add to the trauma.
The actor who plays the wire is Maureen Lipman CBE. She's pretty famous and well-respected here in the UK. I'm annoyed that they cast such a talent to play such an awful character. Doctor Who has a habit of doing that.
You’re rant about the whole “forgive him” thing is the exact same one I’ve had since I watched it when it first aired.
Anybody else revisiting this after watching the 50k ranking special?
Yup lmao
Indeed. Or rather, visiting it for the first time.
Yep 😂
yes!
I hate the ending too. The mother and grandmother are his family too. Rose had no right to force her emotional baggage on a stranger. This is what made me angry at Ryan in the episode “It Takes You Away”. Not everyone’s situation is the same as yours.
FEED ME (Seymour)!
FEED ME ALL NIGHT LONG!
YES
I actually always liked this episode. Not one of my favourites by a VERY long shot, but I never minded it as much as most people seemed to.
I found the father character actually really convincing. I don't know why it worked for me and not for you - I haven't personally known people like that, but for some reason it really rang true. You say he didn't have any non-cartoonish moments - I disagree. At the beginning of the episode there's a short scene of the family, with Tommy asking his dad for a tv. It IS a really short scene, but the whole atmosphere of the house and the father felt much warmer, and there is a moment of real affection between the Tommy and his dad.
Throughout the rest of the episode I also found him to be disturbingly convincing. My mum had her own little catchphrase she'd snap whenever she got angry about something, so maybe that helped sell the "I AM TALKING" line to me.
As far as the thing at the end with Rose, though? Completely with you there - I was about 10 when I first watched this episode, and even at that age that moment really grated on me. I remember staring at Rose after she said that, thinking "Wait... What? That can't be a good idea." The guy may well love his family - I maintain his actions throughout were a misguided way of trying to protect them from something he was scared of - but he CLEARLY didn't respect them at all. I was half expecting the Doctor to step in and say "No, let him go."
The Wire also worked for me. The "Feed me" got very tiring after a while, but my impression of the creature was that it was being overcome by it's greed and instincts the closer it got to it's goal. I don't remember exactly, but the appearance of a woman was simply a borrowed image, right? I felt that the longer the episode went on the less the Wire bothered to keep up appearances and reign in it's instincts.
+
That must of took ages to type 😂
this basically sums up my thoughts on the episode.
Oh God... I'm taking my driving test today, I think I'd rather crash the car than listen to the wire yell FEED ME!!! one more bloody time.
Good luck!
It's kinda sad how there's *almost* a gem there with Rose - dead dad, rejected by the alternate version of him - being the one to push the son to keep a connection with his father. Imagine Rose and Tommy having bonded a little over their suboptimal childhoods, and when she says, "He's your dad," Tommy replies...
"Exactly; he's not yours." Without venom or pain; simply a long-sought peace that he finally has.
...I got condolences for my so-very-estranged father's passing (which kind of spat in the face of WHY we were estranged), and I realised it was because they were coming from people thinking about *their* actually fatherly dads. There's no way they could have met mine. So, that was the spirit I ended up taking their messages in.
3:55
As a kid I didn't have any kind of analytical mind to have much of an opinion on the rest of the episode, but I remember cringing HARD at this bit.
I am so glad I wasn't the only person pissed off with Rose trying to encourage the kid to forgive his dad. I grew up with an abusive father,
-& it was implied the father in this episode was abusive-so that action *always* grated on me. I always put it down to Rose having "Daddy Issues".....
I think what they were trying to do was have rose to get Tommy to forgive his dad cause he wouldn't always be there. But his actions were unforgivable and they shouldn't of gone there and it didn't work
Roses dad died. She wouldn't know what it would be like to have one and had a taste of a full family in father's Day and she wanted Tommy to keep having one. Bad idea full rose with no dad issues.
Nope. Not the only person pissed off by that. Not by a long shot.
@@roguebritgravy1 you literally described her "Daddy Issues". Her misguided belief that *any* Dad is better than no Dad-based simply off of her experience of having no father.
I’m also an abuse victim and I was really glad that Nathaniel noticed that. I was very caught off guard by that scene on first viewing and I have to skip it on rewatches and pretend it doesn’t happen so I don’t get upset. Normally things like that wouldn’t get to me but Doctor Who and especially the Tenth Doctor’s run has a special place in my heart so hearing Rose say that and if I remember correctly she says “you’re smart, so don’t leave it at that” was offensive to me on a personal level. I had to remind myself that the viewpoint that this was a good thing was the writer’s position, not Rose and the Doctor’s and now I just pretend it never happened and don’t consider them approving of an abuse victim needing to be the one to forgive and reach out to their abuser to be canon.
(Edited to insert that I was younger and in a rougher place emotionally when I first saw it, it probably would’ve pissed me off but not really stuck in my mind the way it did if I’d seen it now.)
I had totally forgotten about the end scene where the son runs after the father and they walk off together. That one scene is a complete write-off for me. It’s not realistic for this kid to be afraid of his dad, stand up to him and then run after him, seemingly forgetting that this guy has done horrible things up until this moment. It completely ruins the dad getting actual consequences for his shitty behaviour.
I would rather have a moral about actions having consequences, than unconditional forgiveness to people who haven’t yet earned forgiveness.
YES! I despise that Rose sends Tommy after his dad because "he's your dad" like that overrides the fact that he's an abusive douchecanoe. One of my least favourite things that happens in far too much media, the idea that you owe an abusive or absent or just generally bad parent another chance. No. I really don't, thanks. Happens too much in real life too, like people who've lost good fathers they loved can't grasp that no, actually, having a really crappy father in your life isn't better than not having one.
As for the father generally, think it might be the cultural thing because yeah, never struck me as unrealistic and the " I AM TALKING! " is something I definitely saw from men of a certain age when I was a kid.
It's a shame the Wire turns terrible and the father thing is poorly handled because there's some great stuff too. I'm always impressed by how the interrogation scene is shot so it switches the person who's in control really visually. And the faceless people are super creepy. And Ten and Rose are having a ball, clearly. But ugh, those two things spoil it so much.
I had a friend growing up, high school/middle school, whose dad was so much like the dad from this episode. He made my skin crawl so much when I first watched it. He wasn't well acted, but I knew his character.
When rose sent the kid after him, I was livid.
I was pissed off at Rose (though to be honest her character always seemed flat to me) and I agree about the writing.
That message at the end was only topped by In the Forest of the Night making out kids shouldn't be treated with medication, as far as downright toxicity. I can let the latter go to a point, because it felt like an unintended byproduct of inattentive writing, but Idiot's Lantern feels more malicious in that it went out of its way to present that message
Thank you for the comment about the "go to him" moment, and media's heavy pushing of the idea that you should forgive any family member for any behaviour "because they're your dad/mom/great uncle's bestie" ... it's a super toxic trope and mostly one that isn't challenged.
I have 1 Issue with your review for this episode.
Despite all your points being valid and you going over a lot of the episode there's one short scene that I think should be appreciated and discussed more. It's memorable, it shows the doctor unveiling how hypocritical the beliefs at the time were. It doesn't save the episode but it certainly should be remembered when discussing it as a decent highlight.
I dub thee the "What Gender is the Queen?" Scene.
I'm so glad you pointed out that really toxic mentality that no matter what your family does to you or anyone else, you should forgive them and love them anyway. I grew up with two really bad parents and I'm so tired of people and media looking down on me for deciding I don't want either of them in my life. Family only means so much at a certain point, and you should never have to risk your emotional, mental, or physical health to stick by terrible people just because you share genetics.
YES! Thank you for your "cut them out" speech!
I see this in movies and tv all the time. 'Family is everything.' No. Being treated with respect, and kindness and love, having your feelings validated, letting you have dignity in your life, that is everything. Being related by blood does not mean you are somehow obligated to look past abusive treatment, cruelty, unkindness. If that's your family, you have every right to reject them and make a family of your own choosing.
I never particularly liked this episode, and it was always that ending that bothered me the most. You are not obliged to comfort your abusers or help your abusers, even if they are family.
Mark Gatiss
In case you didn't know Maureen Lipman, who plays "the Wire", is a "British National Treasure", not one of our best but definitely on the list. My sense of why Rose told Tommy to go after his father is simply because she never knew Pete.
I loved her in "Agony", that was a great show.
She is a fantastic actress.
Fun Fact In German THE WIRE was translated as DER ÄTHER ( THE AETHER ) Ths is what the broadcasting waves were called in Germany up to the late Sixties. UND WRI BEGRÜSSEN UNSERE ZUSCHAUER AUS DEM ÄTHER AN DEN FERNSEH-EMPFANGSGERÄTEN BEI SICH ZU HAUSE. Still remember this from watching TV as a kid in the Mid Sixties.
The German Episode Title is DIE GLOTZE, that was also a prejudistic commen viewpoint to the early TVs. From GLOTZEN - looking dumb. Like nowdays with Computergames or UA-cam watching it was said that it would make stupid. Hence i love this episode.
The only thing I think of when I hear the Wire screaming, "Hungry," and "Feed Me!" is Little Shop of Horrors. I start looking around for Rick Moranis. I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you said, which is unusual for me. Good video. :-)
This is the first time I've heard you legitimately rage.
Watch his worst Moffat episodes video because Idiot's Lantern got off scot-free compared to Hell Bent
@@clara_bandicoot Hell Bent is so bad.
Y'know, I may be the only one who thinks this, but I don't hate Mark Gatiss nearly as much as other people. If only because I believe that he understands the franchise more than RTD and Moffat. His book stuff is absolutely marvellous. Nightshade, The Roundheads and Last of the Gaderene are great books. And Invaders from Mars is a criminally underrated Big Finish audio. Even some of his TV stuff isn't too shabby either. The Unquiet Dead is really good, Night Terrors is Fear Her done right, I think Sleep No More gets too much hate and Cold War, The Crimson Horror and Empress of Mars are great fun as well. And I think that An Adventure In Space and Time was the best thing to come out of the 50th anniversary. Mark knows when to have fun in his stories, but also have a sense of urgency. I admire his enthusiasm and passion for the show, and I would have actually wanted him to be the showrunner as opposed to Chibnall. That said, this story is definitely not one of his stronger ones. One of the most average Doctor Who stories that I have ever watched. And this was a story where I really didn't like the 10 and Rose relationship.
I'm glad someone else likes Mark Gatiss aswell, I was beginning to think I was the only one. I would have taken him over Chibnall as showrunner any day of the week, night terrors and the crimson horror are classics in my book and like you said his books are great aswell
I was more confused by than hated Sleep No More. With the Video topping and tailing the episode I wasn't sure when it was meant to have been shot/released/broadcast. I didn't know if it was electronic, and spreading that way, or if one of the people rescued was 'contaminated', I thought it was a two-parter?!
@@MrRjhyt It was apparently supposed to be a 2 parter, with the second part being in series 10. However, due to the absolute storm of negative reception that that episode got, it was scrapped.
I think Gatiss would be an excellent producer. He doesn't always write an excellent story, but he's better than people make him out to be. And I LOVE Invaders From Mars!
@@rocklobsterjwt As I understand it, the writers take a brief from the showrunner and I think Gatiss suffers from that more than most. RTD and Moffatt gave him stories that maybe they'd write better, maybe another writer would do better, but Gatiss is better when he has a free hand. His experience and strength is in writing original material where he has a high level of creative control.
An example would be Victory of the Daleks where I'm sure I remember him saying that the brief was "spitfires in space". That would certainly explain why his Doctor Who TV episodes, although often not as bad as some people make out, are disappointing. All the more so because we know how good he can be. At the risk of really sounding like an apologist, I sometimes wonder if it becomes a problem that he loves the show too much; it doesn't always help to be so close to the subject matter.
i completely agree with you on the thing at the end with Rose. he was an abusive jerk, and the fact that the episode framed Tommy going back to him as a good thing pissed me off too. i mean you hit all the points pretty well, but yeah, just because someone is blood family doesn’t mean you have to always love them or choose to have relations with them or whatever.
Am I the only one that the WiFi part of the Bells of Saint John episode seems like a version of this episode set in the modern day.
Jedi Spartan 38 I find that so weird.... I loved Bells of St. John, but I hate this one.
And I’m not sure why there is a difference?
The Wire's accent is called "received", which is considered trustworthy and loyal; often British newsreaders have this accent. As a man of Liverpool, I fucking hate the accent lmaoo. But it's often used for British villains, and I can certainly see why.
Well i'm a Scot. I much prefer that nice rustic charm from a Liverpudlian accent.
2:44 That's actually an interesting thing to keep track of when binging through the series with the mention of the Tardis taking the Doctor wherever he NEEDS to go instead of where he wants to in The Doctor's Wife.
This episode’s biggest sin (aside from the many you detailed in your video) was not naming Mr. Magpie Seymour. I swear, if they were going to lean into the camp that much they might as well have gone all in. It would at the very least made her screaming “Feed me!” a little bit more tolerable, if not a tad hilarious.
Well, it's here. I'm gonna make sure my volume isn't up too loud....
As someone who grew up with an abusive father, I really appreciated your rant. When they're that bad, you gotta cut that garbage out of your life for your own health. Rose was definitely not in the right about this, even if it might make sense for her character.
I totally agree with every point you made about the father here. I didn’t see anyone mentioning it so I thought I was being too hard on that character, but now it makes me feel a bit better to see that I’m not the only one with that opinion 😅 and I totally get how angry you got towards the end, because people (regardless of whether they’re characters on TV or people in real life) do keep saying that you can’t cut bonds with a close family member, and that is very harmful.
The idea that you *have* to forgive someone for any reason is absolute shit. It doesn't matter if they're your family, or if they've "tried to change", or whatever. It's your decision, not anyone elses.
& even if you *do* choose to forgive someone, that doesn't mean they've suddenly got the right to be a part of your life again. Forgiveness & remorse & whatnot don't erase what someone did in the past.
I agree with you about the father. I have similar outlook on some of my family members like my brother, my father and maybe my sister. My mother says that because of my father's blood that I'm unsympathetic, that I have no sympathy for my family. I think it's the opposite, I have so much sympathy that I cant push myself to feel/care for them since they dont feel or care about themselves or anybody around them.
Your comments about family - I nod my head furiously. I have seen the authority of the word "family" used and abused to validate and normalise the most unacceptable, systematic behaviour. While I actually fairly enjoy the episode - particularly in its evocation of place, time and attitudes - this is indeed a problem.These continue to be the best Who reviews on the net.
As a person who had to deal with multiple really toxic people (including my father, but also non-family people), I'm TOTALLY WITH YOU regarding that rant about the father and the son at the end of the episode. I actually didn't dislike that character's writing as much as you do, though. But when you started ranting about that redemption at the end, I was like "THIS, THIS, *SO MUCH THIS*" because NO, NO ONE IS *EVER* OBLIGED TO DEAL WITH TOXIC PEOPLE, and NO it just DOESN'T MATTER if it's family or not.
So, to everyone reading this who have toxic people in their lifes: KICK THEM OUT OF YOUR LIFE. I know it's difficult, sometimes it seems to be impossible (especially if you're underaged and it's your parents, for example). But *please* do not stick to toxic people just because you feel obliged to, or because it seems too difficult, or because you don't want to hurt them or something (if they behave in a toxic way, it's their own responsibility and they have to deal with the consequences). You all are important, please take care of yourself. 💜
Roses costume is amazing though. Just gotta get that in there
I always forget about this episode. It is apt that this video launched today because I was at the Alexandra Palace (the place the Doc goes to at the end to save the day) to see the snooker. All I thought was two things... I am glad I forget about this episode because it is awful and then also how terrified I would be to climb up that tower... it is HUUUUGE!!!!!
I actually really like this episode. There's a lot I really like. In the interest of avoiding an essay, I'll leave it at that
I actually quite liked this episode but for some reason however that bit where Rose encouraged the boy to go after his dad did bother me a little bit? This is definately better than love or monsters. ( I am really looking forward to your review on that one - lol)
I quite like the LINDA parts of "Love and Monsters". It's just about the only time I remember seeing Marc Warren not playing some level of arsehole, plus him (despite him usually playing dicks), Moya Brady, Kathryn Drysdale and especially Shirley Henderson are on my "people who'd be a good Doctor list". OK the Aborzobaloff is crap and the time it took "LINDA" to get suspicious is bad character insight/development as they're there because they'd pretty clearly conspiracy types, but as a social awkward person I always get a warm feeling inside when groups of social awkward people get the chance to make friends.
The thing I can never forgive this episode for is the callous way that the Doctor and Rose force their way into a family home and proceed to bully the father (he's not a nice guy, but they don't know that) whilst nudging and winking at each other as if to say, "Aren't we clever? This poor slob doesn't stand a chance against us." I found it to be loathsome. Also, the wonderful Maureen Lipman (the Wire) was horribly wasted in her one-and-only appearance in Who; and with the addition of the ridiculous face-stealing strategy, and the advice Rose gives to the abused son at the end, this story still ranks for me as the worst Who story of all time.
I completely agree with your assessment of episode 100%
If this monster had only waited a couple decades into the 2010s, it would have won in like a day at most.
I actually completely forgot about this episode to the point that when I saw your video on ten worst episodes of the tenth Doctor (which was only a few months ago as I'm rather new to this channel) I went back and watched it. And I have two comments to make. At the point where The Wire goes "Feed Me!" I responded with "Feed me Krelborn, feed me now!"
And secondly and more importantly, the father in that family feels too real to me. Because he's basically my grandfather. And yeah, I get what you're saying about people having nuance, and yes, this is true, but when you've dealt with someone like that, it still hits way too close to home. For that reason, I love the moment when Ten shouts at him "AND I'M NOT LISTENING" so much I could forgive this episode for a lot of things except what Rose does. What Rose does is so not okay. The truth is, not everyone gets a decent father and some people are better off without theirs. And that kid probably would have been. I know my aunts would be much more well-adjusted people if my grandmother had kicked him out way back when, and my mom would have been better off too, she's just a lot tougher than they are.
This is a very good review. I really like your description of "character dimensions".
No disrespect but being an American you don’t understand Britain , the father wasn’t cartoonish for that rien
I'm Irish and I found the father cartoonish. And I had an abusive father
Emma Clarke woah, sorry about ur father that deep , and that’s ur opinion ur entitled to it 💪🏿
The father definitely is conforming to a stereotype, but not a cartoonish one. It's not a remotely unconvincing character for the time and place.
I lived in Britain in the late 1960s -- Troughton was *my* Doctor -- and the father was similar to the father of several of my neighborhood friends. (As an American, I went to American school, but went to ballet classes and other after school things in my neighborhood.)
The Wire was so perfectly after school telly that I love her. One of my favorite scenes in Tennant's era is the one with the detective.
Here after your Redemption through Death video premier. I have noticed that for LGBTQ people and people from abusive homes. We get that sometimes cutting someone out is life saving and needs to be done. Its those who have never had that moment where your mother or father says or does something so hurtful that you can't go back words that a burnt into your mind because they never should have been thought let alone said. "I wish you were never born" "I hate that your my kid." and other comments like that, some of which I have personally had to endure from my own mother before I came out as LGBTQ. So cutting someone out is sometimes necessary even if its in situations where maybe its not their fault (strokes, mental illness) you can't chain yourself to that sinking anchor because it will drag you down with it. LGBTQ people know that found family is just as vital as blood I wish media would catch up.
I agree about the ending. I can’t watch that specific episode because of that. The dad was terrible and the doctor put him in his place and then rose under cuts it
Ironically, my grandad used to say "I am talking" in the exact same way. He was a lovely man, just a bit of a drill sergeant.
Dude I LOVE YOU FOR CALLING ROSE OUT FOR SAYING GO TO HIM!!! I hate that idea perpetuated that blood is the most important thing, and I totally am with you that sometimes it's safer and healthier for you to remove yourself from dangerous toxic people. Man you're getting an extra vigorous push of the subscribe button. That idea is just a huge sticking point for me. I mean I love your content anyway, but YESSS GOLD STARS FOR SLAMMING ROSE FOR DOING THAT AND PROJECTING HER OWN DADDY ISSUES ON SOMEONE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION!!!!!!!!!!!
When I was twelve I thought this was my favorite episode, haha. How times change. Still nostalgic for it despite its flaws though.
Respect for the rant, btw. Totally agree with you.
I can understand why you might think the father is a comical character bases on his obsession with control and his accent. At this time in Britain, you would most likely come across these people regularly, ex soldiers who wanted control but didn't know what they were doing. I think he is a real character and not a joke. He wasn't an abusive father so why should Rose not have encouraged the son to run after the father? The end of the episode is a valuable lesson in forgiveness. Many families had people like this in them. You still meet people like the father today.
Yes he was an abusive father? Certainly emotionally abusive, and very much implied to be physically abusive as well.
Karkat Vantas at that era of time he wouldn't be considered at all abusive. Many fathers were very stern and controlling with their sons. After the War there was a feeling that the horrors of the war were not talked about and the emotion started to build up in people like the father. Basicly. There was nothing special about the father or the situation the family was in. Many Many other teenage boys were in this situation. It was the norm.
@@Rod35477 That something is the norm doesn't make it a good thing.
Aurora Not by today's standards but what you are failing to understand is that I am talking about a historical story and I was trying to give you an insight into life in Britain during 1953 not a modern day episode where these spy of characters would not work. Sorry if I caused any offence.
@@Rod35477 You're good, I see what you were trying to do :)
I just wanted to point out that someone from our time probably would have reflected upon the fathers actions - with the mindset that abuse is bad, even if it was socially acceptable at the time they were in - and not encourage the son to reconcile with him, with the reasoning being: he is your father.
If that made any sense at all (English is not my first language)
This episode is a weird one because in essence you are bang on - its poorly executed when it should have been great - the faceless people creeped me out because it was taken from a 70's show "Saphire and Steel" which did a similar thing that was really creepy. Now - the Father figure.... what I think they were going for is this portrayal of 1950s Britain - at a time when young people who had just come out of War, many who didnt even know their Dads (my Father met my Grandfather when he was five when he returned from War) and (in the case of this type of character) the only way they could function would be to treat their family like a military operation - devoid of love and emotional connection (possibly even suffering PTSD) and so to avoid a connection would wear this persona like a mask. Also this is the start of the revolt that led into the 60s - the ordinary working class were determined to move away from a victorian class divide - juxtapose that with a royal coronation and you have the clash between the old traditions and a new generation of awakening. Had this been fully developed and explored with solid writing and better cast the you would be looking at a much more solid representation of the period and time of change. Its a pity that Gatiss missed the mark by a mile because it had the makings of a really good Drama.
I think you've hit the nail on the head :)
Yeah, I was unsure why I didn't like this episode, it's always one that I've never liked coming back to, this video summed up some of my issues quite well really. The father has no real human moments that makes the horrible things he did better, the episode straight up tries to act as though the kid should give his dad another chance without having the dad put ANY work into redeeming himself and the enemy is uncomfortably written in a VERY bad way, the wire is a clever concept but it should never have degenerated into just screaming feed me or hungry.
Cant wait to see the big smile in the thumbnail next episode as its one of your favorites.
The lady who plays the wire, is actually a very well established British actress. Could basicly play any role she wants.
I think the point of the "hungry/feed me" thing was to get kids screaming it running round the play ground almost becoming a catch phrase, like "are you my mummy?" Don't think it worked.
I agree with most about the father. He was very much a man of his time, a time when the English were extremely patriotic and proud. I would have liked to see a softer side to him too. Would have justified the end more. If it was portrayed that he needed the input of a new generation to see the new England. Show he was willing to change but didn't know how
Unpopular opinion
I absolutely adore this episode, not ironically.
I like the character interactions, some great lines, the faceless grandma was terrifying, I didn’t think the dad was bad since they didn’t imply the dad came back to the family or anything (just that the son is going to try to have a relationship with him) and I ship The Doctor and Rose so this was great. Sue me
"I'm the Wire. And I will gobble you up, Pretty Boy!"
Thinking of this episode reminds me of what is happening with Jodie Whitaker. Today people think. Oh how great pay Doctors were. Thirteen had ruined Who. But then we're look back at this series and we're like, of three of the worst episodes ever. So maybe today's Doctor isn't so bad. In fact I think today's Doctor is great
This episode was so impactful to me, that I forgot the dad was even a character past the flag argument scene at the beginning. This episode had the Doctor's rubber-soled shoes blocking his electrocution, and that's about all I remembered in detail. Glad to know I was happier in life before being reminded of the rest of it.
I actually love rants. Cant wait for love and monsters and fear her videos. (And Lazarus Experiment, Victory of the Daleks, Lets kill hitler etc.) Keep up the great work
it's well past the time for spoilers given its been a decade.
At least this story gave as the “And I’m not listening” scene.
Speaking to Season 2's weak episodes, it feels like they were trying things behind the scenes. With 'Love and Monsters', they learned important lessons about Doctor-Lite, and Companion-Lite episodes. Which lead to excellent eps, like Midnight and Blink. Also don't make your monster a child's creation, and jam it in at the end with a techno-fix. 'Fear Her', was the low-budget episode, to allow better effects in the Two-parter. It was perhaps too influenced by the upcoming olympics. For me, part of the appeal of Who, is the relentless upbeat, redemptive nature of the show. I cried at the ending. Also nice for him to investigate an alien phenomenon, and it's not malicious, the Doctor as healer always fills me with hope.
I hope you see more positives when you re-watch them.
Idk if I agree with you about the dad being a joke of a character, (it's been a while since I watched this episode) but I do agree with you about "go to him because he's your dad" was just a nope nope nope moment for me. Like maybe you shouldn't encourage kids to forgive abusive parents just because they did the BARE MINIMUM of being a parent? no thanks, doctor who. bad moral.
I couldn't agree with you more (I tried but my head started to hurt) about the f'd up way that the media pushes acceptance of someone simply because they are family. I'm dealing with exactly that in my life. The woman I love has been abused by her mother since she was very little. And she's still being abused. Though not officially diagnosed, we're certain that she's mentally ill. Because she absolutely a jekyll-and-hyde type personality. But no matter how many times I beg my fiancé to cut the woman out of her life, she was raised on _that massage._ Whereas from my point of view, the woman doesn't deserve the title of mother. She simply gave birth to her. The rest must be earned. I cannot be there all the time as we are in separate cities right now trying to move and sell our houses. It's driving me crazy. On one level I do understand an abused child, no matter how old, may look to the last time they were abused with a hope that _it will be the last time._ But what's reinforcing that skewed perception, or rather reinforcing that misplaced hope, is exactly that media message you noted. Such a person must be removed from one's life.
At least you get to do The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit before those next 2 stories! The contrast in quality between TIP/TSP and The Idiot's Lantern, Fear Her and Love and Monsters is staggering.
It's like a sandwich where you've got a filling made by professional chef, but the bread is Tesco blue-and-white striped budget bread that's all soggy because it got dropped in a puddle.
The Impossible Planet absolutely NAILS the claustrophobic feel of an isolated space station, the entire supporting cast is excellent, the guy who gets possessed has such a perfect face for the role with its chiselled menace, we get introduced to The Ood, "Satan" works way better as Doctor Who villain than he really ought to, and the pacing is spot on. The contrast between the chaos happening in the space station and the absolute deathly silence of the ruins below really adds to whole scope of the episode, and you really get a feeling that the planet should never have been visited by man or any other race, under any circumstances.
The episode was so good that Chris Chibnall decided to do a really watered-down, derivative version of it in season 3.
Don’t hold back Nate tell us how you really feel.
For me, Fear Her is the bottom of the barrel. This one is right on top of it. Love and Monsters is definitely in the lowest quartile, but not sure where.
And this is why RTD didn't bring Mark Gatiss back for Series 3 & 4
Yesss I love these videos!
Personally this episode had SO much potential especially in modern world, we’re always looking at our screens. It could’ve been a great villain but it just shouts “feeeeeed meeeee” constantly and has no character, the father of the family is so cringe, I kinda like rose in this but she’s still ehh. Just a dull episode that’s forgettable. 0/10. There’s nothing I like about it. Also, why did the kid forgive his dad in the end? He was absolutely horrible and yeah it’s his dad and you only get one but still.
Note: Commenting before watching the video. I don't remember a lot about Idiots Lantern apart from the villain saying "Hungry" about a thousand times and the awful dad.
I wonder if the sheer, visceral disgust for the particular "You can't choose your family" or "You always have to forgive your family" messages comes from being part of the LGBTQ community. Because since coming out, I've had to cut some toxic people out of my life. Some of them being family. And while they can earn forgiveness, they aren't entitled to it. And I hear stories about more people, who had to cut ties with even the closest family members. This message (While well intentioned), can be dangerous.
For a while I would emulate the way the Wire said, "HUNGRY" when it was mealtime. Even my Whovian friends didn't know what I was doing, so I dropped it.
Also, oh no, Love and Monsters next...
I've been waiting for this one.
I felt the same about the ending with the dad.
Whilst I agree with your condemnation of Rose's wrong-headed advice at the end of the episode, I find much to like about this one. It is certainly the most peculiarly British episode of Season two & feels very much like a Classic Era Who. Were it the Seventh Doctor & Ace, or even the Third Doctor & Jo, it would play out in much the same way. Perhaps it feels artificial in that it portrays a modern British view of what the post-austerity '50s were like, but that is appropriate given Rose's role as audience surrogate. It made me think of Ace in Remembrance of the Daleks. It also winks at Sapphire & Steel with the faceless people. In using Maureen Lipman as the face of the Wire, it consciously recalls BBC received pronunciation, Joyce Grenfell & Enid Blyton style Englishness, all with tongue firmly in cheek. It is truly a nostalgia piece & coming after the clunky, unsubtle Rise/Age of Steel two parter, feels like the Doctor is coming home.
I agree with you about the father
Series 2 :
Bad episode
Good episode
Great episode
Great episode
Okay 2 parter
Terrible episode
Amazing 2 parter
Terrible episode
Bad (but I think underrated)
Great finale
I don't mind the Wire as a villain as I can appreciate the camp element. Not a favorite character of mine but still. I did like the faceless people and ten's darker edge. I did not care at all for the father or that last scene. This definitely one of Gatiss's weaker stories.
The dad was literally so terrible, AND Ten and Rose put him in his place too, which makes the “go to him” that much more frustrating >:(
After World War II, my father also acted as the "King of his castle." He didn't behave as the guy in this episode, but I had friends who's fathers did act that way. BTW, I'm from the Liverpool area in the U.K.
A lot of people acted like that. The Victorian era created a social paradigm that never really got to resolve because the next half a century was a meat-grinder. People dont understand the cost of the world wars in terms of what it did to society.
You've got to watch Love and Monsters I feel bad for you, may the lord have mercy on you're soul.
8:28-10:28 Thank you.
This episode solidified my perception of Rose as a girl with daddy issues. Series 1 often made this clear with the dynamic of the Doctor and Rose's relationship. Nine had a paternal element to him when traveling with his teenage companion, and she was looking to fill a void in her life that her mom and Mickey couldn't fill. Now she's got Ten as a boyfriend instead of a father figure (even though Ten definitely doesn't feed into that narrative until Mickey actually leaves the picture). And the daddy issues are still there. She lets her own trauma get in the way of seeing a truly toxic situation.
4:04
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I think people forget that some episodes back in 9, 10 and 11s era were really bad. The Idiot's Lantern is one of them but there are many more.
Why is it called The Idiot's Lantern?
the father in this episode disturbed me, because he was my dad. Whoever wrote him was a victim of childhood abuse.
Finnaly you changed the thumbnail of the first Overdue Who Review video, the inconsistancy bothered me!
As a Latina, the father came off as a macho guy for me. So I found him quite believable (and easy to hate) in that sense. The best moment of this episode was when his wife kicks him out, and the worst was when Rose tells the kid to go to him "because he's your father". Never mind that he had zero compassion for his mother in law. Blood does not make family. I do like the rapport between the Doctor and Rose when they first step out of the Tardis, but it goes downhill from there. Oh and those that think that Doctor Who has never been PC, there's the part where the Doctor chides the father for the "woman's work" comment by reminding him that the soon to be Queen is a woman.
The funny thing is Rose’s telling the boy to go to his dad was about the only thing I did like about this episode (other than the growing rapport between 10 and Rose). I have had my fair share of “Daddy pain,” and you don’t make peace with it by just cutting him off. You just become bitter and self-centered like the one you blame for your suffering. Yes, it was too soon to reach out to him, but it’s a 45 minute show. Simplistic family solutions come with the territory.
Well said.
TBH I'm shocked it ever got past the writers' room. Someone should have enough insight to flag up just one of the things it got so wrong. I've been watching Nu Who back on the BBC since 2020 ( it's really been depressing tbh ) & I just got up to TIL a month ago, the really odd thing is you can't stream it w/o the cast commentary & that's so muted as to be inaudible so you can't hear either the soundtrack or the commentary. It's as if the BBC know they shouldn't have made it & only make it available for fan service. Really weird.
Well UK rarely uses the "writer's room" format that's so common in the US. The scripts really only pass through two or three people before being handed to actors/directors/etc. The writer does it on their own and it goes to the script editor and possibly the showrunner, though usually mostly for a continuity pass. It's not like how it is in the US where not only did somebody have to have a bad idea, but a whole room of people let it on through (or were possibly fully in favor).
@@CouncilofGeeks Yeah, sorry for the sloppy short-hand. The problem I have with Nu Who is it puts too much power in the show runners hands ( something that seems unique in British drama afaik ). You look at the number of times Classic Who's Script Eds./Producers ordered re-writes ( Skip all this if you want, read back & it's over-detailed; Pyramids of Mars & Hand of Fear, both by the same author, had to be so overhauled he took his name off them; JNT insisted on renaming a character in Terminus-she was originally named ''Yoni'' & he had to explain to Steve Gallagher what that meant-& he had Curse of Fenric toned down considerably as he thought it too sexualised. Colony in Space originally had a female prison guard & the Head of Drama's exact words to Terence Dicks were ''I'm not having a Woman in kinky boots with a whip being sadistic in Dr Who!'' ) it's surprising how many Nu Who scripts seem like first drafts in comparison. Some episodes suffer from the glaringly obvious fact that no one said ''No'' at the time, I don't know whether that's to do with RTD's management style or just the zeitgeist/high they were all on 20 years ago. If someone had gone to Douglas Adams with Aliens of London I doubt even he'd have tolerated flatulent aliens.