Overdue Doctor Who Review: The Shakespeare Code
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Bubble bubble, toil and trouble!
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Worst part of the ep was how badly they started setting Martha up to be the lovelorn after she was introduced as being a far more competent and contained character in Smith and Jones.
"Rose would know what to do..." Gag! No she bloody well wouldn't.
I hate how she was always compared to rose, I think it was Davies himself who couldn't get over rose. I'm suprised he didn't replace her with a chachter named Lilly, plaid by paloma faith who worked at Debenhams and lived on a Manchester council estate.
lmao so true
While I do like this episode, I do have a problem with 10's characterization in this, and that's him whining around Rose. While I believe that 10 develops a much stronger connection with Martha after Gridlock, he really throws underneath the bus in this, talking about how Rose would know what to do. Which is a shame because it bogs down an otherwise really good story. Shakespeare is one of the most likeable side characters in NewWho, I love the Buffy the Vampire Slayer-esque atmosphere and tone, and the story never feels rushed.
My only major gripe with Series 3 is the number of times Rose is referenced.
it also makes me laugh, because rose would definitely not know what to do ahha
her and the doctor would just be making jokes while people around them we're dying
Very shitty line. And when the witch says her name too.
I put this episode in the same bracket as Tooth and Claw ... an easy-going, fun historical adventure, with nice sets, and a cool atmosphere.
I think it worked well to EASE Martha into the adventure, and considering the far more intense episodes that were on the horizon, it was a pleasant calm before the storm!
i personally really like this episode! it’s fun. i also don’t really like the doctor/companion romantic angle, especially Martha falling for the doctor so hard like that. but overall i like the episode. i appreciate the Harry Potter references, and of course the one moment...
*Shakespeare is flirting with Martha*
“we can all have a good flirt later!”
“is that a promise, doctor?”
“oh fifty-seven academics just punched the air.”
i didn’t get that joke when i first watched it a while ago, but i’m rewatching all of new who again and i got it and laughed a lot.
I always hated the "Rose would know" line, and how all of that was set up too early, totally agree with you there. I do like that they acknowledged that Martha wasn't dressed for the time period, that her skin color "wasn't a tan", and that she was strong and resourceful (which is why the above mentioned scene grates on me). But overall, this was a fun ep, I liked the ending when a flying arrow gets stuck on the Tardis door, and to this day, "The Carrionites Swarm" is one of my favorite pieces of music from Murray Gold.
David Tennant: …and this rather saucy little scene between the Doctor and Martha, which went through a few re-writes. The first version of the script I read of this, the Doctor stripped to his underwear!
Christina Cole [Lilith]: Which is… wrong!
David Tennant: Well, it doesn’t feel quite right to me, I have to be honest. He stripped to his underwear and got into bed, which of course freaked Martha out, and the Doctor was being terribly oblivious to the whole thing. Which just to me seemed… I mean I could see the idea behind it, and it’s not entirely believable that the Doctor would be that insensitive to human niceties. So in the end we compromised with them just kind of… hunkering down together on a little single bed.
Wow that's ridicolous.
I love this episode, especially the Shakespeare character. The music is also absolutely brilliant!
Ah yes, the beginning of Radio vs the Martians sponsor.
I was flipping channels one day in the summer of 2007 and landed on SYFY - which I had been boycotting since Farscape was cancelled. And then I realized it was the new Who which I hadn't seen yet. This very episode. About 5 minutes in. I got hooked immediately.
I do think Ten & Martha's relationship is a good analogy for real life stuff like rebounds & having a crush on someone that's not into you. Problem is it's just not fun to watch. Whenever those moments pop up it drags the episode down briefly & doesn't make either one of them look good.
That's actually a good way to put it. I have the a similar problem with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. I totally get why Harry is being such a jerk and distrustful and angsty and lashing out, it's part of growing up and he's under more pressure than most. I just hate having to read it.
totally agree
I like the idea of the Doctor having like, one monster that's really close to magic if the episode had played up how out of his element he is dealing with something this odd.
This is one of the harder historical episodes for me to enjoy and it all comes down to one reason. Stories like The "Unicorn and the Wasp" or "Vincent and the Doctor" feel like they fit in the historical figure better to the story. (It also includes Martha who I really don't like as a character, but that's a bigger nitpick.)
Cant get behind you with the martha thing. Shes one of my favourite companions.
This episode gets extra points for confirming that 'Back to the Future' exists in the doctor who universe and the Doctor had apparently seen it.
Legit thought once you said "Before you skip, it's free!" that the sponsor was gonna be Honey because I'd seen it on 3-4 other UA-cam channels
Will definitely try a Radio vs the Martians episode on tomorrows walk.
FTR: my favorite lines in Shakespeare:
Jaques: God be wi' you: let's meet as little as we can.
Orlando: I do desire we may be better strangers.
As for the episode itself: I think you're right about that scene at the inn. *Especially* after that kiss the Doctor gave her in "Smith and Jones." ...And aliens are to "Doctor Who" what old guys in rubber masks are to "Scooby-Doo."
In retrospect, I suspect they did the "power of words" thing with the Carrionites to lay the groundwork to prepare us for what they were going to pull out of their posterior in the season finale.
I'm not sure that tracks. One is about the power of perfectly selected words, the other about the power of belief and stories. They're related, but don't quite feed one into the other.
@@CouncilofGeeks Yeah, the Carrionites' 'sufficiently advanced technology' wasn't the same as that used in the season finale. I wasn't necessarily suggesting a direct correlation, more that they were highlighting how fuzzy they were willing to get with what was possible in the show in general.
I liked how they tie Doctor Who into historical times and showing he's linked to the events or was where we got the myth/legend/story. The three carionites turn out to be the inspiration of the three witches in Macbeth. Family of Blood ending they hint at he starting the Bloody Mary/ghost in mirrors with how he trapped the girl in mirrors at the end.
I really like this eppisode. It's one of faves from this era. I don't even know why, I just like it.
I think what it was with mather and doctor in the beginning is that she actually thought he liked her too.
Us as humans have seen so many movies where a life defying catastrophe happens, then the 2 who save the day fall in love and live happily ever after. So you can't blame mather for thinking this is her fairy tail romance. Plus if any man was to grab me and kiss me like that, than ask me back to his. I'd be pretty sure I was in with a chance too. He does technically lead her on. I think in beginning she was more wrapped up in the whole whirlwind fantasy romance that actually in love with him. For me it feels like she only falls in love with him when she realises that actually he's not into her.
The actual eppisode is fun, paced well with good actors and characters I do have a soft spot for witches, magic and that time period any way so, I might find it better than what it is.
Apparently if you're really into your Shakespeare the eppisode works alot better, I don't really know that much of his work, my daughter did point out a few Shakespeare Eastereggs that she spotted and I didn't.
it's super interesting to me that you compare the relationship with martha to a rebound, because I always felt like the core conflict between them was that neither of them was looking at their relationship on the same grounds? the doctor even says a season from now that he just wants a friend, and i think that was what he was looking for in martha. he was just self-absorbed enough to be able to brush off her feelings for him to get that friendship, or arguably even enjoy being crushed on. but i don't think he ever entertained being romantic with martha. (i kind of wish they did explore that a bit more though too, like if the thesis of 10's run is the way he uses people and then pays for it, they could have stood to call him out on his bad behavior more.)
I agree with all of this 100%!
Best part of the episode is when the doctor meats Elisabeth the 1st
The return of Queen Elizabeth the first and the Doctor has no idea why she’s cross with him.
Was that the Queen he married in Day of the Doctor?
Spoilers.
Why is she cross with him?
Is it because he left her?
They didn't seem to part on bad terms "sworn enemy" just seems a little over the top for what happened in 'the day of the doctor'
Could be explained as ‘cross timelines memory fuzz’ that was spoken about during the ‘Day of the Doctor’ ending,
Although it’s shown that ten knew something about that time in the end of time part 1.
@@dubbingsync yes. He said he had met her, and hinted on a bit of romancing, Liz 10 referd to it again in "the beast below"
Maybe we'll never know, maybe we're not meant too..
We now know why the Queen was so angry at her husband the Doctor in this story
Best part of the episode is when the doctor meets Elisabeth the 1st
I thought maybe the carrionites acted like witches with the brooms and stuff to blend in with the setting
The actor who plays Shakespeare in this episode is Dean Lennox Kelly, he is known more for his narration work in the UK for different shows.
Gelth: Ghosts
Werewolf: Self explanatory
The Beast: The Devil
The Carrionites: Witches
Pyrovilles: Fire demons
Saturnynes: Vampires
The Siren: Also self explanatory
The thing from Hide: Ghosts again
The signal beacons in Under the Lake/Before the Flood: Ghosts again
The Mire: Norse Gods
Dryads (alien bugs): Poltergeist
I just remembered part of this was filmed in the old part of my city.
I’ll check out your sponsor on my way to work. Mission accomplished.
I listened to two episodes today. Really good stuff. I’ll likely listen to most of their episodes.
I'm actually with you 100% on the aliens that happen to be exactly what the myth is and basically do magic, but it's not called magic thing. It would work way better from a storytelling point of view if they had some technological things that people who don't understand it think is magic, but isn't quite the exact same as what the lore ends up turning it into.
I've never been into sterotypical cartoon witches OR every supernatural creature being an alien either.
However the bedroom scene was my favorite. People look at The Doctor as having human hormones etc. He isn't teasing or playing and is strictly platonic in the sequence. Thinking back to 1963 Rose was an anomaly, even with a Timelady companion partway through. It's more that Martha is taking this and the kiss from the previous episode & applying human impulses & games, which he isn't. Not hard to get: No to get. The bedroom scene defined where The Doctor stood and Martha's failings as a projecting human. IMHO of course.
I liked the episode. Though who the hell was the lead carionites talking to at the beginning? Fourth wall breaker there...
I tend to like it so far when Dr Who does silly/campy stuff, but I agree that the whole 'magic words that do things but it's totally not magic' thing kinda rubs me the wrong way. I was also pretty iffy on the Satan thing but at least that was vague enough that maybe the entity was lying or something. And I have a hard time believing there was anything technological with those voodoo dolls.
A lot of the negative attention on the episode is the "Rose would know" line, which isn't great, but I was always much more bothered by the Doctor's casual dismissal of Martha's very real concerns about being a black person in the past. It just feels like RTD didn't want to even think about that issue but knew he couldn't get away with just ignoring it, so he hoped that line would cover things but it really, really doesn't and just makes Ten look like a thoughtless jackass, especially combined with his later making Martha spend months in 1913. It says something that the show has more recently repeatedly gone out of its way to correct it.
My god, yes. Martha brings up the fact that her not being white could potentially makes things difficult for her, and the Doctor responds with "Just walk about like you own the place, it works for me"
...Yes, Doctor. As a white man, I imagine that approach would work well for you.
Just realized Shakespeare is Kev from Shameless 🤯
I did like the magic element. While it was a bit silly the idea that an alien race was so far removed from our idea of technology that theirs was based on the resonance of words not the calculation of numbers was really interesting.
It’s also important to note that this was setup for the conclusion of Last of the Time Lords. The Carionites channeled psychic energy like a human never could. In the finale the Doctor taps into the collective psychic energy of the population of Earth by linking himself to a satellite system that was linked into everyone’s minds and using his name as a focus for that energy. This gave him temporarily magic like powers.
Though on that note I do wish they’d have made just a little more effort to make Gallifreyan technology look a little less like magic. The bit where the Master revived himself through what was basically a necromancy ritual would have been so much less ridiculous with the inclusion of a few time lord machines he’d left instructions for though his human cult did not truly understand the workings of.
As you like Shakespeare, look up the book entitled The Sweet Swan of Avon and prepare for your mind to be blown and WHO wrote Shakespeare theories just might get blown out of the water.
Don't take this the wrong way, but there are few things I have less interest in than Shakespearean authorship theories. Maybe country music, but not much else.
@@CouncilofGeeks I don't, but I thought you'd be interested in the book. My favorite Shakespeare is Midsummer's Night Dream and "What fools, what fools these Mortals be!" Is my favorite line too. I'd dearly love to hear it coming out of Billy Boyd's mouth if someone where to make a live action version of it.
Puck is on my shortlist of characters I'd really love to play.
@@CouncilofGeeks Who would you get to direct? I would go with Branaugh and to play Oberon, Tom Hiddleston.
Honestly I'd like to see Guillermo del Toro take a crack at it. Get Doug Jones to be Oberon and Ron Perlman could be Bottom.
Yeah, the Carrionite's magic really felt kind of stupid. Doctor Who tends to less make up believable worlds and more throw everything at the walls and see what sticks. Like the leather men from Smith and Jones, which I'm pretty sure was just the writer wanting to throw in a sex joke (it's been a while). Otherwise, I thought this episode was alright.
I think this episode is decent. I also didn't like the unrequited one sided love story with Martha and The Doctor. Like Martha was set up as the independent strong willed capable modern woman who is suddenly going gooey over a guy she just let like no. Please. I like you also like that they keep Martha's modern mind but don't make her dickish about it like she recognises it is a different world and states the differences with everything like being a woman doctor and being coloured and stuff.
Also I dunno why this bugs me a lot but it's a niggle I can't shake off. Martha was the first black companion. Like regular long standing one. This was 2007. By that point doctor who had existed for 44 years. Why did it take that long for a black companion? I dunno it's just a thing that bugs me.
Overall I agree strong and decent enough episode weaker in some places but not horrific. Watchable and has it's enjoyable moments. Solid u feel for so 2 of a new series and the companions first proper outing.
You don't count Mickey Mouse
@@tothm129 he wasn't seen as the official like long term companion as he was only in like a couple of episodes per series. He wasn't the companion for the whole series. That's what I meant. I should have clarified better.
I got the fact that mather felt the doctor was into her, so she was a bit flirty with him. After she realises he isn't it should have been left there.
It’s been so long since I watched this episode but did they try to tie in the “witches “ as inspiring Shakespeare to put them into Macbeth??
I think Martha points out that it's odd and says "because you've written about witches" to Shakespeare, to which he replies something like "Have I?" and the Doctor says "No, not quite yet"
I think this sets the quota for this series;They often have good ideas that tend to get lessened by the story. They're not always bad, but could easily be improved. Overall I enjoy this episode but there are always some nagging elements that tend to bug me.
The Torchwood episode Countrycide is a great contrast to the 'myth=alien' trope you hate so much
This was the second ever episode I watched when it first came out. I was 7 and my dad was trying to get me into the show. How was he to know how terrifying it would be to 7 year old me? I'm still a bit creeped old by this episode now I'm 19.i went upstairs and didn't come back the next Saturday. The "vampire"in the episode previous was pretty scary to me but I wasn't paying much attention and I think I liked the juddoon and moon setting but idk it was ages ago
I honestly forgot this episode existed
One thing I picked up on when I rewatched this earlier that kinda bugs me are a few lines that sort of line up in my head with Gareth Roberts (the writer) as a person.
Martha: "Men dressed as women."
The Doctor: "London never changes."
Shakespeare: Isn't that a word we use nowadays? An Ethiop girl? A swarth? A Queen of Afric?
Martha: "I can't believe I'm hearing this."
The Doctor: "Political correctness gone mad." [Like, really? The Doctor saying that?]
The Doctor: "Good ol' JK!" [Just the fact that she was referenced in a script by someone else with transphobic beliefs is a bit... yikes]
I really disliked this episode the last time I watched it. In terms of "The Doctor meets a famous person" episodes it has a lot of the worst habits of that, consisting of mostly shallow references to Shakespeare's work while not having a lot of insight into the man himself or his life. It also basically depicts him as this near-flawless superhuman with an intellect on par with the Doctor. Shakespeare may have been a great and enduring writer, but he was still just SOME DUDE, you know? The witches also dip too far into straight-up fantasy and magic for my liking for a Doctor Who villain.
One significant thing I don't like about this episode is how they handwave the issue of race. "See, nothing to worry about, there's other black people." No.
I never really liked this episode, though after hearing your review I feel like it might be comparable to your feelings with “farther’s day”, where most of what I didn’t like about this episode could be attributed to the villains, I really hate the villains in this episode, for basically the same problems you had only it bothered me a lot more. I’ll rewatch it and focus on the other aspects.
6:36 ... This is me while watching some of season 11 episodes.
Sometime forget that this episode exists. Bad villains in this but great characters aside the Doctor going on about Rose.
I find this episode way too cartoony for the subject matter. I thought the villains were hamfisted, obvious and not well thought through. This is Shakespeare, it could have glorious, like Vincent and the Doctor glorious. Also, if you're trying to write Shakespeare you need to be a lot better writer than the guy who wrote the episode was. So much of the dialogue was painful, and when you got into the witches word magic stuff it simply was unbelievable. Steven Moffat could pulled it off. The writer was simply out of his league here.
I am really shocked you didn't talk about the hint (or should i say - confirmation) that Shakespeare is bisexual, because that was my favorite bit. I 100% agree with you about everything else though especially the Doctor/Martha stuff.
What part was that? I don't remember.
"Oh... 57 academics just punched the air..."
@@wendyheatherwood The Doctor: Let's go, we can all have a nice flirt later!
Shakespeare: Is that a promise, Doctor?
The Doctor: 57 academics just punched the air.
@@theaquinnwrites Oh... Yeah, I totally forgot about that bit. It's been a while since I've rewatched that season.
This one is one of the few in series 3 that really doesn’t hold up for me. Such a waste of a great premise to not actually attempt reflecting Shakespeare’s style in the writing at all, and the man himself is a pretty shallow character. The death of his son is used for brief pathos points but needed to be explored way more to resonate.
Doctor Who does skate a fine line, in being more fantasy than science fiction. But refusing to accept that magic is ever the reason. The use of SF as the reason is so vague that it is effectively meaningless. If you just say nanites rather than magic dust, or so forth, he can dismiss ignorance and belief in magic, and justify spurious scientific reasoning to solve the situation. This is a repeat occurrence in Who, with King James and the forgettable mud monsters being the latest iteration.
For me, I'm not bothered by this hypocrisy it's the characters and the difficulties they face that intrigue me. Whether a story is interesting, well acted, beautifully written, or intriguingly shot. That's what I want to see. For their flaws, the boneless were brilliantly realised, the Weeping Angels a fascinating concept, etc. As for scientific rigour, I'll just suspend my disbelief. I want a compassionate hero, and that's the Doctor.
Back in 2013 I mentioned to a co-worker that I wasn't fan of Dr. Who. (hadn't watched it at the time just saw memes and heard recaps from others and wrote it off as something I wouldn't be into) and this episode was chosen as the sure fire episode that would change my mind. SPOILERS it didn't. Fast forward to 2018 and I stumbled onto your channel and heard your thoughts on Capaldi and decided to give him a chance along with following Jodie. I now own box set of Capaldi Era and have started liking Matt Smith also.
Wow, bizarre choice. If I were going to introduce a new viewer to Doctor Who, I'd think maybe Blink, or Silence in the Library, or Midnight, or The Eleventh Hour, or The Girl who waited, or even one of the lighter ones like Closing Time or A Christmas Carol before I went with the Shakespeare Code. :/ (That's keeping it to eps that didn't air after 2013).
#justiceformartha ;)
Rose loved drugs!
I've introduced my daughter to Doctor Who, and we have two episodes left in series three. She's not taking kindly to Martha. She keeps saying "she's not Rose", and I'm trying to see it through her eyes and...yeah. Martha gets completely rewritten after the first episode where she was strong and level headed, and turned into a fawning school girl. Plus...Freema's acting really starts to irritate me. Especially when she screams...which she does a LOT.
It probably doesn't help that the show itself is constantly going "She's not Rose" as well, so it's reaffirming your daughter's feelings at every turn.
@@CouncilofGeeks oh I agree completely. Rose had a big impact on her, and she was visibly shaken after Doomsday.
Well you're not matting with me sunshine
Matting?
I know just enough about Shakespeare for most of the jokes in this episode to feel like super obvious low hanging fruit. I especially got bored of How much they repeated the "'ill take that line" thing.
I dont like it not terrible but is quite weak 4.5 out of 10 probs the worst in series 3
Worse than The Lazarus Experiment? Really?
Sorry. Shakespeare was the greatest writer from anywhere!
Probably the most meh episode in the show's history for me.
That's why the X-Files got boring for me. The answer, most of the times, was aliens. Aliens, Aliens, Aliens, vampire..oh.....back to Aliens.
When you realize that Shakespeare was a functional illiterate man (he could read but couldn't write) it makes you wonder how someone who'd never been to the Royal Court, never been out of the country, wasn't multi-lingual (nearly all his non historical plays were borrowed from continental books in various languages). Her Ladyship Mary Signey Herbert and her brother Philip were the catalyst for the English Literature Renaissance. She was also a lady in waiting to Elisabeth the first and a cousin to the Queen. Please find and read The Sweet Swan of Avon. It's an eye opener.
I really dislike this one, it's cringy, boring and has a transphobic writer.