I don't understand how any entity can agree to a document and yet not be able to possess any copy of the document they have agreed to. Ive watched other videos concerning this and mystified how attorneys for the member schools are allowed to view the GOR but cannot make/produce anyform of copy of the GOR document, its nonsense that something so important cannot be given to the member institutions...
It is STANDARD PRACTICE with a Private Company or Government Secret. You can't go see the Colonel's Secret Recipe and/or make copies either... it is the SAME thing really
The state of Florida has Sunshine Laws that require all public entity records be open to the public. FSU is a public university. FSU can see the GOR but not the agreement between ACC and ESPN. Not yet anyway. The AG of Florida as filed suit to open that up as well. It is not just a political ploy.
@@Msseminole PRIVATE CONTRACT Florida AG run her mouth about it. But took no legal action. That ought to tell you something. Florida Law will NOT APPLY.
A Florida Court is not going to allow a North Carolina Court make a decision on a Sovereign Florida Public Institution. A one day notice does not provide enough time to have any Attorney review a document extending so many years. If the ACC Commissioner sent the email at 4:45 p.m. EST, and then signed that document 12:15 a.m. then Florida State University would have received a notice of a day. Phillips signed that extension & in good faith all ACC Member’s should have voted on this ESPN/ACC Contract. There was not 1 ACC Member knew anything about the 2027 out for ESPN. ESPN is already moving ACC games to CW, and that ACC/ESPN Network will be dead for sure come 2027. ESPN’s business model is broken and they need to get rid of the ACC. They need the $$ money. The State of Florida via the Governor has encouraged the ACC to negotiate fairly, or the Florida Legislature (who are already biting at the bit) will send a bill to the Governor & he will sign it: The State of Florida will execute its “Full Sovereign Rights”. UNC, Florida State, and Clemson no longer have clout in the ACC. FSU has notified the ACC of impending departure. From goal line to goal line the Westside Stands are coming down & will not be available for the entire 2024 football season. The 1st game to be played in the New Doak Campbell Stadium will be the 2025 Season opener against Alabama. Florida State would not have notified the ACC without a landing spot, so someone knows something we do not know. Several Network’s have expressed who they want: CBS, NBC, FOX, and FOX Sports wants Florida State University. That is due to tv ratings in football & the quality of the FSU’s Athletic Department. Now the State of Florida Attorney General Ashley Moody (a UF grad) holds an Elected Judicial Office & Sits on the State of Florida Cabinet: She has given the ACC 10 days to comply by sending every document she has listed. The ACC responded “No” & said the document’s are sealed, they may only be viewed in the ACC Vault, under ACC supervision in North Carolina. No cameras, phones, nor any electronic devices may enter the ACC Vault & No ACC Member may obtain a copy of any ACC Document’s in the ACC Vault. *Other than the Administrative, Legislative, and Judicial Branches of the State of Florida are now “Up in Arms” with the ACC! Then the Florida State University’s Law Suite is a separate avenue. I am stunned by the ACC secrecy & complete disconnect with member school’s. UNC & NC State University will likely find themselves with the most difficult exits.
TL DR Wall of Text makes it IMPOSSIBLE to READ. But it doesn't matter because your 1st Line ASSUMESa Florida Court will have ANY SAY ACC FILED 1st. So... this case will be DECIDED in North Carolina because FSU is SO DUMB that the ACC saw your moves coming from MILES AWAY and beat you to it. So you don't GET a Florida Court. Making whatever you say NONSENSE.
As an FSU alum, with being in a family of boosters since 1964, I can attest to much of this. Is this turning into a fight between Mickey Mouse and the state of Florida? I don’t know but sure is complicated. The secrecy thing is just weird.
Nice to be back on the Big Mountain! Strong episode, breaking it down like no other. 2024 is starting out hot it’s gonna be a big year on The Mountain! LFG!!
Good job digging deeper into the documents. I know one thing regarding withdraw. In the by laws once a school has given notification of the intent to withdraw they lose all voting rights with the conference. This could affect events going forward if multiple schools notify. Also important would be what you said about what constitutes notice of intent.
This is what we saw with the PAC. Even if schools do not formally withdraw, and are simply refusing to sign a new GOR ( which is what UO and UW did), they lose voting privileges
They only lose their Vote IS the ByLaws SAY they lose their Vote. Do you know that they say that? I don't actually know. Lots of BS about the PAC Deabcle went around saying teams leaving DID lose theirs and that was NOT TRUE UNLESS a VOTE was held to Remove the Vote... their BYLAWS required a BOTE to remove their Vote - which was DUMB = that is what THEIR Bylaws Said. Lots of people run with details that applied to 1 CONTrACT they know but not to OTHERS
The ACC is toast. My wild prediction is that Cal, Stanford, SMU, Tulane, Boise State, and San Diego State will be part of the PAC12 relaunch with Oregon State and Washington State within the next 12-18 months. Other schools will be invited, but guessing they will want to see what P5 schools shake out before inviting more G5’s.
I watched an attorney who claimed that the 2/3 agreeing to the contract was through coercion. The ACC told the teams either sign or leave and pay the penalty and they knew most teams could not pay the penalty. Futhermore the ACC made promises to FSU to stay in the ACC and according to FSU the ACC has not met their obligation under the contract.
@@Msseminole I work in sports in an ACc town and used to work at the ACC school. I know people there now and I was there when the contracts were signed. My godfather used to be ASt AD at this ACC schools, a friend of the family through marriage was Ast AD at the time of the contracts, many friends of the family work for the university and athletic dept AND my father played at the school and is a lawyer and so are many of his friends. So I deal in contracts LIKE THIS ONE now and was there to Assist when this contract was drawn up, and I know the people at this ACC school AND OTHERS who were part of crafting this deal. Plus my education, while not in law, involved multiple law classes on this and other subjects. It's in my wheelhouse. And I KNOW that everything coming out of FSU is a Haf-Truth at best and not the half that will work in your favor.
@@MercerKnowsBall so it sounds like you are well connected. Bottom line, if FSU doesn’t get out of this contract in by 2026, it is finished as a big boy football school. It is truly existential thing for the university and its athletic program. So FSU has nothing to lose in fighting;it’s fight or die.
Really appreciate your factual analysis. I have watched a ton of similar videos, and quite a few from bona fide lawyers, but it is surprisingly hard for even professionals to hide their personal bias.
Good information but would you PLEASE look at the camera like you are speaking to your audience. It's like we're looking at a conversation in which you are figuring things out. May be petty, but it is annoying that you seem to be ignoring your audience out here in "UA-cam Land". The information is appreciated regardless :)
Haha - we will work on it. We are not professional in this field. Just two guys with day jobs having a discussion. A lot of people seem to like that about us but we will certainly try harder to look at the camera more 👍
A memory from law school suggest that FSU may be estopped (estoppel: Estoppel is a legal principle that prevents someone from arguing something or asserting a right that contradicts what they previously said or agreed to by law) from agreeing to and taking money from a contract and later claiming they have sovereign immunity. Another memory is that a contract is only worthwhile when the parties to it mutually intend to enforce its terms. If FSU is executing contracts with no intent to follow the terms if they become inconvenient - which seems to be the case here - it is not useful to contract with them. But having done that, the terms to exit are clear and apparently have been carefully negotiated by people who have ample precedent (i.e. Maryland) and are likely to be enforceable.
FSU has taken in million$ from the contract they signed, presumably because it was the best deal available for them at the time. To claim to be victims now that things have worked out differently than anyone could have predicted seems illogical and not reputable. They have not been particularly collegial members of the conference they chose to join. But good luck to them.
Here is my take, FSU or any school that leaves, still owes the ACC NOT ESPN their media rights until 2037. Which means that say ESPN does NOT pick up the option and the ACC has to settle for < present value, FSU is still obligated to allow the ACC and whosever they choose as their broadcast partner to broadcast their home games until 2037. That is one of the reasons why FSU is going “Scorched Earth” ( the other using the fear of Discovery and ACC leaders and ESPN executives facing Cross Examination on the Witness Stand). Basically making the cost of keeping FSU until 2037 > then letting them go.
Well that is a take but it is probably not the way a court will interpret it. But we shall see. Glad this will finally be done soon and everyone can move on to a better place.
I am actually on the side of FSU. I also do not think this gets to the discovery phase. Why? I still go back to what Jim Phillips said “Any school can leave” which tells me, even he knows certain schools are gone. The key for FSU is leaving without paying an extortion and loan shark price. They key for the ACC is making the price so high everyone cannot afford to leave, so the ACC doesn’t go PAC. My gut tells me $200m, and unless the SEC adds UNC plus 1-3 schools it is just FSU and Clemson to the Big 10 ($200m is too much for Miami and others to pay).
There is NO CLAUSE that lets ESPN not pick up the ACC. That is a LIE. The Clause FSU is LYING ABOUT is a Look In Clause. That Clause says the ACC must stay at 15 Teams or more OR ESPN can PAY LESS. But it ALSO SAYS if the ACC EXPANDS past 15 teams ESPN will PAY MORE AND it ALSO SAYS those 15 teams can be DIFFERENT TEAMS than the 15 Teams in the ACC when the Contract BEGINS So NOTHING YOU SAID is TRUE based on the FACTS of the Contract
Totally different scenario, because the long term life of the ACC is at stake, so the ACC will hold out for as much $ as possible, it was a total different landscape.
FSU’s strongest card is Discovery. No one (not even the ACC) knows what is in all the documents and emails. I guarantee the ACC leadership and ESPN executives do not want to face the witness stand ( especially if it ends up in Federal Court, where everything might get found unconstitutional).
@@TheBigMountainPodcast yeah but there is no reason for the ACC to give in, besides Florida State is way overhyped, they had one good season & are trying to use that to propel themselves out of the ACC. Since 2015 Clemson has won 40 more games than Florida State, and DJU is not elite, Florida State is completely reliant on the transfer portal and that 63-3 annihilation cannot help recruiting. Look at TCU, they never recovered from that 65-7 loss, what happens if the next 3 years are between 5 to 8 wins with zero CFP appearances? The SEC doesn't want them, and if the Big Ten decides that they are going to stand pat, then FSU is screwed, because they can never make up that money in the Big 12, people have made the mistake of looking at 2023 in a microcosm, and ignoring the fact that Clemson has carried the ACC, and not Florida State. By the way, if they leave for the Big Ten, I will help pack their bags for them, because they are far & away the most arrogant & annoying fan base & school administration, they are the Shooter McGavin of the ACC. If some other team had won 40 more games than us over the past 9 seasons, I wouldn't be claiming to be carrying the conference.
@@MariaScreamapova That's why Boo Corrigan's dad wanted FSU back in the 90's. He saw the landscape changing and knew FSU would raise the prospects for the whole ACC. Like it or not, FSU carried the ACc for the first 15-20 yrs they were in the conference. Had they not joined, most likely Clemson doesn't receive any press or shot to win a NC. They never really played until FSU joined and had they not, Clemson would be left in a sub par, basketball first conference. You have to look back to that and also look at Tommy's record against everyone except his dad. When they won those games, that put them on the radar for better players so it's a symbiotic relationship with FSU.
Yes, they are, unfortunately!! The Noles and their fan base have made this year's college football landscape very unbearable to deal with. Wish they would just go away!
UA-cam has been infested with crybaby FSU fanboys trying to gaslight everyone into buying their false narratives of how the CFP screwed them and how they're getting into the Big Ten.
Very informative as always gentlemen. This is going to be a long battle.
Thank you sir!
I don't understand how any entity can agree to a document and yet not be able to possess any copy of the document they have agreed to. Ive watched other videos concerning this and mystified how attorneys for the member schools are allowed to view the GOR but cannot make/produce anyform of copy of the GOR document, its nonsense that something so important cannot be given to the member institutions...
It is STANDARD PRACTICE with a Private Company or Government Secret.
You can't go see the Colonel's Secret Recipe and/or make copies either... it is the SAME thing really
The state of Florida has Sunshine Laws that require all public entity records be open to the public. FSU is a public university. FSU can see the GOR but not the agreement between ACC and ESPN. Not yet anyway. The AG of Florida as filed suit to open that up as well. It is not just a political ploy.
@@Msseminole PRIVATE CONTRACT
Florida AG run her mouth about it. But took no legal action. That ought to tell you something.
Florida Law will NOT APPLY.
A Florida Court is not going to allow a North Carolina Court make a decision on a Sovereign Florida Public Institution. A one day notice does not provide enough time to have any Attorney review a document extending so many years. If the ACC Commissioner sent the email at 4:45 p.m. EST, and then signed that document 12:15 a.m. then Florida State University would have received a notice of a day. Phillips signed that extension & in good faith all ACC Member’s should have voted on this ESPN/ACC Contract. There was not 1 ACC Member knew anything about the 2027 out for ESPN. ESPN is already moving ACC games to CW, and that ACC/ESPN Network will be dead for sure come 2027. ESPN’s business model is broken and they need to get rid of the ACC. They need the $$ money. The State of Florida via the Governor has encouraged the ACC to negotiate fairly, or the Florida Legislature (who are already biting at the bit) will send a bill to the Governor & he will sign it: The State of Florida will execute its “Full Sovereign Rights”. UNC, Florida State, and Clemson no longer have clout in the ACC. FSU has notified the ACC of impending departure. From goal line to goal line the Westside Stands are coming down & will not be available for the entire 2024 football season. The 1st game to be played in the New Doak Campbell Stadium will be the 2025 Season opener against Alabama. Florida State would not have notified the ACC without a landing spot, so someone knows something we do not know. Several Network’s have expressed who they want: CBS, NBC, FOX, and FOX Sports wants Florida State University. That is due to tv ratings in football & the quality of the FSU’s Athletic Department. Now the State of Florida Attorney General Ashley Moody (a UF grad) holds an Elected Judicial Office & Sits on the State of Florida Cabinet: She has given the ACC 10 days to comply by sending every document she has listed. The ACC responded “No” & said the document’s are sealed, they may only be viewed in the ACC Vault, under ACC supervision in North Carolina. No cameras, phones, nor any electronic devices may enter the ACC Vault & No ACC Member may obtain a copy of any ACC Document’s in the ACC Vault. *Other than the Administrative, Legislative, and Judicial Branches of the State of Florida are now “Up in Arms” with the ACC! Then the Florida State University’s Law Suite is a separate avenue. I am stunned by the ACC secrecy & complete disconnect with member school’s. UNC & NC State University will likely find themselves with the most difficult exits.
Some very interesting stuff here.
Thx for the comment and view!
TL DR Wall of Text makes it IMPOSSIBLE to READ.
But it doesn't matter because your 1st Line ASSUMESa Florida Court will have ANY SAY
ACC FILED 1st.
So... this case will be DECIDED in North Carolina because FSU is SO DUMB that the ACC saw your moves coming from MILES AWAY and beat you to it.
So you don't GET a Florida Court.
Making whatever you say NONSENSE.
As an FSU alum, with being in a family of boosters since 1964, I can attest to much of this. Is this turning into a fight between Mickey Mouse and the state of Florida? I don’t know but sure is complicated. The secrecy thing is just weird.
Great show !!! Nice update on FSU !!!
More to come!
Good discussion!
Nice to be back on the Big Mountain! Strong episode, breaking it down like no other. 2024 is starting out hot it’s gonna be a big year on The Mountain! LFG!!
Yes it is the broadcast revenues of the home games, I am very familiar with this living in the heart of ACC country
Good job digging deeper into the documents. I know one thing regarding withdraw. In the by laws once a school has given notification of the intent to withdraw they lose all voting rights with the conference. This could affect events going forward if multiple schools notify. Also important would be what you said about what constitutes notice of intent.
Stay tuned - Our next ep will be on withdrawal.
We don’t discuss voting rights however, that’s a good tidbit!
The ACC specifies a process which includes written notice sent to specific people. Notice is clear
This is what we saw with the PAC. Even if schools do not formally withdraw, and are simply refusing to sign a new GOR ( which is what UO and UW did), they lose voting privileges
Norte dame gets voting pull, who fu***** cares
They only lose their Vote IS the ByLaws SAY they lose their Vote.
Do you know that they say that? I don't actually know.
Lots of BS about the PAC Deabcle went around saying teams leaving DID lose theirs and that was NOT TRUE UNLESS a VOTE was held to Remove the Vote... their BYLAWS required a BOTE to remove their Vote - which was DUMB = that is what THEIR Bylaws Said.
Lots of people run with details that applied to 1 CONTrACT they know but not to OTHERS
The ACC is toast. My wild prediction is that Cal, Stanford, SMU, Tulane, Boise State, and San Diego State will be part of the PAC12 relaunch with Oregon State and Washington State within the next 12-18 months. Other schools will be invited, but guessing they will want to see what P5 schools shake out before inviting more G5’s.
We like wild predictions!
Best explanation I have seen. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Go Noles!!!
I watched an attorney who claimed that the 2/3 agreeing to the contract was through coercion. The ACC told the teams either sign or leave and pay the penalty and they knew most teams could not pay the penalty. Futhermore the ACC made promises to FSU to stay in the ACC and according to FSU the ACC has not met their obligation under the contract.
That’s definitely an argument we expect to be made and play out in court.
He LIED TO YOU.
@@MercerKnowsBall
How do you know this? Just curious
@@Msseminole I work in sports in an ACc town and used to work at the ACC school. I know people there now and I was there when the contracts were signed.
My godfather used to be ASt AD at this ACC schools, a friend of the family through marriage was Ast AD at the time of the contracts, many friends of the family work for the university and athletic dept AND my father played at the school and is a lawyer and so are many of his friends.
So I deal in contracts LIKE THIS ONE now and was there to Assist when this contract was drawn up, and I know the people at this ACC school AND OTHERS who were part of crafting this deal.
Plus my education, while not in law, involved multiple law classes on this and other subjects. It's in my wheelhouse.
And I KNOW that everything coming out of FSU is a Haf-Truth at best and not the half that will work in your favor.
@@MercerKnowsBall so it sounds like you are well connected. Bottom line, if FSU doesn’t get out of this contract in by 2026, it is finished as a big boy football school. It is truly existential thing for the university and its athletic program. So FSU has nothing to lose in fighting;it’s fight or die.
Really appreciate your factual analysis. I have watched a ton of similar videos, and quite a few from bona fide lawyers, but it is surprisingly hard for even professionals to hide their personal bias.
Thank you.
FSU also opposed the penalty and voted against, FYI
So what?
Good job guys!
Thanks
Good information but would you PLEASE look at the camera like you are speaking to your audience. It's like we're looking at a conversation in which you are figuring things out. May be petty, but it is annoying that you seem to be ignoring your audience out here in "UA-cam Land". The information is appreciated regardless :)
Haha - we will work on it. We are not professional in this field. Just two guys with day jobs having a discussion. A lot of people seem to like that about us but we will certainly try harder to look at the camera more 👍
I don't think the SEC is interested in Florida State. They already have Vanderbilt!
You are funny. We want the B1G, not SEC.
We don’t want the SEC, we want the Big 10
This video got a lot of views.
A memory from law school suggest that FSU may be estopped (estoppel: Estoppel is a legal principle that prevents someone from arguing something or asserting a right that contradicts what they previously said or agreed to by law) from agreeing to and taking money from a contract and later claiming they have sovereign immunity. Another memory is that a contract is only worthwhile when the parties to it mutually intend to enforce its terms.
If FSU is executing contracts with no intent to follow the terms if they become inconvenient - which seems to be the case here - it is not useful to contract with them. But having done that, the terms to exit are clear and apparently have been carefully negotiated by people who have ample precedent (i.e. Maryland) and are likely to be enforceable.
This is getting deep…
And we LOVE IT!
Thx for this comment!
FSU has taken in million$ from the contract they signed, presumably because it was the best deal available for them at the time. To claim to be victims now that things have worked out differently than anyone could have predicted seems illogical and not reputable.
They have not been particularly collegial members of the conference they chose to join. But good luck to them.
Soon as FSU shows how to get out the other teams will most likely follow.
Just pay the $572 Million like FSU is going to have to pay.
Everybody already KNOWS THAT except FSU.
Who told you that? @@MercerKnowsBall
Here is my take, FSU or any school that leaves, still owes the ACC NOT ESPN their media rights until 2037. Which means that say ESPN does NOT pick up the option and the ACC has to settle for < present value, FSU is still obligated to allow the ACC and whosever they choose as their broadcast partner to broadcast their home games until 2037. That is one of the reasons why FSU is going “Scorched Earth” ( the other using the fear of Discovery and ACC leaders and ESPN executives facing Cross Examination on the Witness Stand). Basically making the cost of keeping FSU until 2037 > then letting them go.
Well that is a take but it is probably not the way a court will interpret it. But we shall see. Glad this will finally be done soon and everyone can move on to a better place.
I am actually on the side of FSU. I also do not think this gets to the discovery phase. Why? I still go back to what Jim Phillips said “Any school can leave” which tells me, even he knows certain schools are gone. The key for FSU is leaving without paying an extortion and loan shark price. They key for the ACC is making the price so high everyone cannot afford to leave, so the ACC doesn’t go PAC. My gut tells me $200m, and unless the SEC adds UNC plus 1-3 schools it is just FSU and Clemson to the Big 10 ($200m is too much for Miami and others to pay).
2027 will be the end date of the acc. Esps will NOT renew when FSU leaves.
ESPN’s new contract with the NCAA makes that more likely. They have 13 months to renew
There is NO CLAUSE that lets ESPN not pick up the ACC. That is a LIE.
The Clause FSU is LYING ABOUT is a Look In Clause.
That Clause says the ACC must stay at 15 Teams or more OR ESPN can PAY LESS.
But it ALSO SAYS if the ACC EXPANDS past 15 teams ESPN will PAY MORE
AND it ALSO SAYS those 15 teams can be DIFFERENT TEAMS than the 15 Teams in the ACC when the Contract BEGINS
So NOTHING YOU SAID is TRUE based on the FACTS of the Contract
Totally different scenario, because the long term life of the ACC is at stake, so the ACC will hold out for as much $ as possible, it was a total different landscape.
True.
But some information can be gleaned from the MD case and what went on with the PAC.
FSU’s strongest card is Discovery. No one (not even the ACC) knows what is in all the documents and emails. I guarantee the ACC leadership and ESPN executives do not want to face the witness stand ( especially if it ends up in Federal Court, where everything might get found unconstitutional).
@@TheBigMountainPodcast yeah but there is no reason for the ACC to give in, besides Florida State is way overhyped, they had one good season & are trying to use that to propel themselves out of the ACC. Since 2015 Clemson has won 40 more games than Florida State, and DJU is not elite, Florida State is completely reliant on the transfer portal and that 63-3 annihilation cannot help recruiting. Look at TCU, they never recovered from that 65-7 loss, what happens if the next 3 years are between 5 to 8 wins with zero CFP appearances? The SEC doesn't want them, and if the Big Ten decides that they are going to stand pat, then FSU is screwed, because they can never make up that money in the Big 12, people have made the mistake of looking at 2023 in a microcosm, and ignoring the fact that Clemson has carried the ACC, and not Florida State. By the way, if they leave for the Big Ten, I will help pack their bags for them, because they are far & away the most arrogant & annoying fan base & school administration, they are the Shooter McGavin of the ACC. If some other team had won 40 more games than us over the past 9 seasons, I wouldn't be claiming to be carrying the conference.
@@MariaScreamapova
This legal issue goes way beyond your team preferences and your opinion about FSU...
@@MariaScreamapova That's why Boo Corrigan's dad wanted FSU back in the 90's. He saw the landscape changing and knew FSU would raise the prospects for the whole ACC. Like it or not, FSU carried the ACc for the first 15-20 yrs they were in the conference. Had they not joined, most likely Clemson doesn't receive any press or shot to win a NC. They never really played until FSU joined and had they not, Clemson would be left in a sub par, basketball first conference. You have to look back to that and also look at Tommy's record against everyone except his dad. When they won those games, that put them on the radar for better players so it's a symbiotic relationship with FSU.
Stop putting FSU to get clicks. Even Kirby showed respect after the beat down. Y'all just trying to make money but no respect, stop the bs
Are these FSU losers still crying? 😂😂😂😂
Yes, they are, unfortunately!! The Noles and their fan base have made this year's college football landscape very unbearable to deal with. Wish they would just go away!
@malcolmjones27
They are going away out of the ACC...
It's so amusing that you're not letting education get in the way of your ignorance...
UA-cam has been infested with crybaby FSU fanboys trying to gaslight everyone into buying their false narratives of how the CFP screwed them and how they're getting into the Big Ten.
Yes, I think they need to go independent for a few years and learn to be humble.