Personally I think that the red hood character should have been an elseworld story instead of in continuity that way it’s more impactful (in my opinion) and just to see like as an “what if” story rather than bring him back to life in the main continuity. In other words what went wrong in this story was the resurrection of Jason Todd, it works as an elseworld story but not as an in continuity story
Exactly? Frank Miller of all people? He wrote some of the darkest stories ever told. The Dark Knight Returns, Daredevil: Born Again, All Star Batman and Robin... the list goes on.
Sure, but from a company perspective, having it be done through a toll-free phone number is just extra cynical. And most of the Miller's dark stories are out of continuity anyways. Killing off a character in- vs out-of continuity is a very real difference in scope and impact. So as odd as his quote seems at face-value, I tend to agree with it. Imagine DC having an online poll to kill off Damian Wayne or Wallace West or something like that now-a-days. Yikes!
Miller doesn't mean the death was cynical, he means that DC said "here, vote for this kid's death" Miller writes dark stories for those that enjoy them, like myself, but when the main Batman title says the life of this kid is in the hands of the fans, a majority of which are kids themselves is what he finds cynical, the vote was cynical, whereas if they'd just rolled with the story it would have been more acceptable and would have seemed shocking but weighty story, but instead it comes off as sick, that DC left it to fans and revealed they wanted that outcome.
An interesting tidbit about "A Death in the Family" that I was surprised to not see mentioned is that one fan had set up his computer to call the death line every five minutes for the voting periods duration, swinging the vote. Its always fascinated me the amount of vitriol that one fan held for Jason.
The reaction to Jason Todd’s death should serve as an example to future writers: you can’t please everyone. Even if you ask the audience what they want, there will always be another side that despises the decisions you made. So, just tell the story you want to tell.
It wasn´t just the death, it was the arc that was very poor. There isn´t emotion, intensity, good sequences. Everything is predictable and childish. People say "A death in the family is a classic must have". It isn´t. People don't know what a good story is.
There's the animated movie A Death in the Family that is multiple choice, but I got through all the endings in a couple hours, it's rather interesting. You have to own a physical copy if you want choices though, the digital is a poor version of Under the Red Hood.
I feel bad for Jason. The nostalgic fans rejected him, and ecen the writers did not care for him, deliberately making him unlikeable and ultimately killing him off in Death in the family. Ironically, fans started to accept him after he returned as a gun wielding anti hero.
The best thing about A death in the family is that, without it, there would never be a much, much better story like A Lonely Place of Dying, which was also Dennis O'Neil trying to make up for the whole shock value he, Jim Starlin and Jim Aparo orchestrated.
I think both stories are good and together they become a very great Batman story that fits perfectly with Batman comics main theme, about dealing with lost and tragedy and becoming a better person.
I loathe A Death in the Family and think it’s a stupid book but A Lonely Place of Dying is really good and its themes of grief and reconciliation are really well done. It’s also a pretty good two face story
I've always found the circumstances surrounding A Death in the Family fascinating. Somehow I'd never heard the bit about the phone vote idea coming from a Saturday Night Live sketch, that's wild!
I forget who said "the three permanently dead characters are Bucky, Gwen, and Jason. They can never be resurrected." Well, depending on how you see Ghost Spider/Gwenpool they're all alive and death in comics is meaningless.
I want to write a story in which Uncle Ben comes back, and he tests Peter to see if he lives up to what he told him, "with great power comes great responsibility" And when Peter fails Ben reveals himself and tells Peter he has to give it up and live a normal life.
@@jakeproven256 that's mostly because the death and Return of Superman. because prior to that storyline comic-book deaths were permanent. at this point it only really seems to apply to minor characters like Goliath, Thunderstrike, and Pantha.
@@mrheroprimes Not exactly true there were characters who died and came back prior to death of superman such as Professor X, Jean Grey, Adam Warlock, Lightning Lad from the Legion of Superheroes, Elektra. Death of superman didn't start this trend it just made it more common.
Personally, I think killing Jason Todd was a good choice bc it gave Batman more growth in his character as when Jason dead, it gave Bruce the realization that if he’s going to take young kids and having them fight crime against dangerous criminals then he needs to be more cautious and properly trained them so they won’t end up like Jason. Plus, I think Jason was doomed to fail from the beginning. The writers were constantly struggling with the character simply bc having someone else taking up the mantle that was use from a previous person was pretty new to them. And bc they were so used to Dick being Robin, and wasn’t expecting Dick to be outside of the Batman book, doing his own thing with the Teen Titans, it was hard to figure out what to do with him. And if you think about it, Jason was more like an experiment as the writers were testing to see what work or not, which is why when they created Tim Drake, they used what they learned with Jason Todd (what worked and what didn’t worked) so Tim could be successful for both fans, audiences, critics.
the only reason Jason Todd died in death of the family was because a fan who disliked to Jason Todd so much decided to cheat using their computer to call the kill line a hundred times, meaning if that person hadn't cheated Jason would have survived. If you think about the only reason Jason Todd was resurrected years later was because of the death of Superman/Return of Superman comic arcs, because prior to that storyline character deaths in comics were set in stone.
What they mean is that most of the writers at the time preferred Mary Jane as Peter’s girlfriend instead of Gwen. So as a result, Gwen wasn’t given much character development; making her seem boring compared to MJ. The only reason she stayed in the book for as long as she did is because Stan Lee loved Gwen because he based her off of his wife,Joan.
@@Dhampir101980 But Stan Lee literally gave Conway the go-ahead. The only grief he really seemed to have was with the backlash. Still, I'd be interested to hear where you learned about this.
@@laststrike4411 the UA-cam channel Casually Comics does a whole video on Gwen’s character and why the decision was made for her to die. Stan did in fact give his blessing for her to be killed . Watch the video, it’s very good
Great video, as always. BTW, the comic itself is bizarre AF. Yes, they killed Robin but after that, the Ayatollah Khomeini makes the Joker his ambassador. Batman tries to get revenge but he has to fight Superman because the Joker, as an ambassador, has diplomatic immunity. Even more WTF is the part were the Joker tries to kill the entire UN, again while officially and legally representing the nation of Iran. I know that the legacy of Jason Todd is a big deal, but the third act of this saga is pure action-packed 80s weirdness.
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 Yeah, 100% true. Still it has a lot of charm. To me, the best Starlin and Aparo did was the, also bizarre, "Ten Nights of the Beast". It has Alfred impersonating Ronald Reagan, it has caos and mayhem and a small (but also great) twist at the end.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 Starlin subtle he is not! Remember when Thanos rearranged a couple of planets to spell is own name? He also used a lot of real world politics. The Joker ambassador remind me of the "diplomatic immunity" villain of Lethal Weapon 2. Maybe it was a fear of americans at the time: foreigners doing illegal stuff while protected by the law.
I’ve always wondered how much Jason being dead in DKR led to Jason’s eventual death within main continuity. It’s also cool that Aparro had pages for him being alive, reminds me of the original pages from the Dark Phoenix Saga before Shooter told them to change the ending.
This is my personal favorite Batman story actually, I know it’s very convoluted but once that death happens and you see that switch in Batman it’s hard to put the book down. Definitely his biggest lost at the time since that of his parents in my opinion
I actually liked when Jason came back, the concept of a Robin gone bad is just such an interesting possibility. Then DC blew it by making him a Punisher knock off. Batman would never put up with a gun wielding member of his “Bat-family” and it just screams of DC trying to get another nickel out of Batman than a story driven concept. Villainous former Robin? For me, yes all day. Anti-Hero Jason? Should have stayed dead.
A punisher knock of ? That by itself shows that you don't understand red hood and you don't read red hood hell batman didn't accept Jason to the family and even kicked Jason out of Gotham after he tried to kill the penguin
Death in the Family was a definitive storyline for me. Brought a ‘holy crap’ moment in Hush and really dropped my jaw with Under the Red Hood. Then the one shot where he crawls out of the grave, wow. Lost Days was a fun take on what happened leading up to his reappearance. It’s one of those characters that reinvigorates the family much like Damian. Unfortunately Jason got all the hate right out the gate. Glad there was a greater purpose for him.
Great video! I'm not a big fan of the way how Jason is portray nowadays, with most stories about his past showcasing him as already rebellious agressive kid from the start. Not only this makes Batman look terrible in judging people (if jason was reckless kid from start there was no way Batman would ever recruit him) but ignores Jason development as character and the events that lead him to become more violent and reckless (ex: the death of his father) as well the good moments he had as Robin (ex: Before the explosion, he tried to save his mother, even after she betrayed him).
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 The problem I have with Jason is the the fact that most stories nowadays show flashbacks of his past most of the time portraying him as reckless violent brat right from start, which ignores the good qualities and moments that Jason had as Robin (otherwise Batman would never had recruited him in the first place) as well the fact that he didn't start like that. He was a good person who, after events such as the death of his father, became more impulsive and rebellious.
Shame the events were undermined by having Jason come alive again. Much like pretty much every bad thing Joker does that now never really has any consequence as it gets retconned later down the line.
4:50 to which I say, "Sir, he can be both. Parents are complicated. And Bruce as a loving father but kind of messed up is actually pretty fitting for him."
After Jason's death and before his resurrection I always hated how his character was treated. Blamed for his own death because he supposedly didn't listen to Batman when he actually died because his mother betrayed him to The Joker. Said mother also just turned away and smoked while Joker beat the shit out of him with the crowbar. Bruce using Jason's memory as a "Don't be like him" to the other Robins and the Batgirls was a dick move too.
To be honest though, I don't think Jason Todd was that bad of Robin because I believe the writers could have done more with him. Plus DC could have done an Elseworld story were he survived thanks to his mother shielding him from the blast. And after coming out a coma he would focused on being a better hero (though he would have still held a grudge against the Joker as he did with Two-Face).
Of course Conway was on board for it. They literally tried to kill original Jason (Earth-one Jason) on his FIRST NIGHT as Robin when Crazy Quilt mistook him for Dick and went after him for revenge. It was a two part story between Batman and Detective comics and there were a few weeks in between the two. The way part 1 left off was SUPER clear that Jason was dead, but part 2 picked up like he'd just gotten into a schoolyard rumble. They poked fun at the idea with a Scarecrow gassed Bats hallucinating a dead Jason later the same year. They were playing with Jason dying from day one.
Ha. Didn't realise "The Dark Knight Returns" was released before "Death In The Family". It's like Frank Miller was unknowingly foreshadowing events, despite not agreeing with the decision.
Great video Owen, brought light to some more specifics of the saga of Jason Todd's life and death to me honestly. Quick note Ethiopia isn't in the "middle east" it's an African country and not an arab country in Asia. Keep up the good vids man!
great video as always. I remember that at the time there was also a campaign around the breakfast cereal "Trix": should the rabbit get the cereal at last? in that poll also, the answer was a cruel "NO!" I think people just wanted to see what would happen.
Uncle Ben had gotten a lot of mentions here as a character who stayed dead, though it's worth mentioning that Ben Parker actually came back in Peter David's "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" series, but Marvel abandoned the storyline and cancelled the title after the abysmal "One More Day," so the thread was never given a proper conclusion. I'd love to know Peter David's thoughts on this...
Jason’s death was huge because he died so brutally. He became interesting in death. Near the end of his run he was fleshed out. Before he was just a stand in for Dick. What isn’t mentioned in the video was the firings at DC because of this. Because well one day a WB exec was bombared with media calls to explain something he has no idea what was going on. Also Denny got checked when WB exec lashed out and told him “we have like 200 products with this guy on it (Dick not Jason)”.
One of the most important event in batman's history , and also one of the most important books from my collection, thank you very much owen for this great video, congratulations
I ...the story makes me feel dirty. Especially when his mother turns away from his beating and lights a smoke. She never cared about him. Nobody did except Bruce and Alfred. That's depressing. I do like how he came back as Red Hood. That Jim Lee costume was awesome.
A Lonely Place Of Dying is one of my favorite Batman comics and introduced my all time favorite robin Tim Drake and without Death In The Family it wouldn't have been as impactful as it was
This was pretty. Maybe some day you could do an in depth look at the intriduction if Tim Drake. Noone ever talks about that, but it explores the concept if why batman needs a robin, as well as, the creators trying to figure out just why Jason todd didnt work and how they could fix that in a new robin character...
I've watched videos about this topic many times (pretty much mandatory for all comic book fans), but none of them has been as well thought out, researched, and streamlined as yours.
A Death in the Family, that title represented the fractured relationship between Batman and Robin, but also Jason's own family. It's funny how this story is remembered for the choice people voted for. I love this story, and I love it's effect on Batman and his stories after this, even Under the Hood by Winnick was great, but after that and in more recent years DC has obliterated what was great about Jason, the dark cloud over Bruce
It's not that Jason died that makes it cynical, it's the fact they said you can vote for that, the way it was presented is what Miller found cynical, to be able to vote for the execution of a kid.
I helped kill Jason Todd so I’ve always been super invested in this storyline. I remember so clearly begging my mom to let me make the expensive ass phone call to murder the kid 😅 Thank you for making this video.
As a 17 yr old kid I knew this was going to be a bad idea. I had no idea how bad it would turn out with the ridiculous return of Jason Todd. Great video.
Great video. I was late to Batman comics starting in 1989. I grew up on the Batman 60s show and Super Friends and the Dynamic Duo was my main reason for starting to collect. I was shocked to learn that not only was Dick not Robin but Robin was killed off. A Death in the Family was the first trade I read. It was a shocking story. To this day it is one of my favorite stories now.
Gerry Conway's line that essentially "Jason and Gwen were never the well fleshed out as characters, they became far more interesting in death than they were when they were alive" rings really hollow to me, because my reaction to that is, "Dude, YOU were the writer on ASM who killed her off, if you thought she was that uninteresting and not fleshed out, YOU have the ability to change that as the fucking writer, YOU can flesh them out and make them interesting if you're actually worth your salt as a writer and deserving of the job you were handed." It just smacks of making excuses for lazy, hack writing. If you're the writer of a book where you got handed a character that was both important to the cast and yet not really all that over with the fans, killing them off to get rid of them while generating some shock interest sales and cheap pathos for the lead to set up a character arc should always be the last resort after first trying to build up the character in question, not the first thing done so you can get to focusing more on the characters you'd rather work with, otherwise don't take the gig. If the writers thought Jason was unlikable and unpopular, they had the power to change that if they were actually talented enough writers to deserve the job by putting him through an arc that transformed him into a more likable character. If Gerry thought Mary Jane was more interesting and likable as a romantic interest for Peter, then while he was writing ASM he had a chance to change that; if a writer is actually good at their job, then they can do something about transforming Gwen into a more interesting and likable love interest with their writing talents, or tell the more difficult story to tell of Peter and Gwen breaking up because they're not right for eachother (if that's what the writer really believes) to make room for Mary Jane as the love interest after a character arc where Peter grieves the now ended relationship. This kind of excuse making for these kinds of stories and the fact that the sales were always pretty good paved the way for the bloodbath in the 2000s of supporting cast members and B and C list heroes that writers just killed off to generate interesting in their books while "clearing out the dead wood" when they could have just sent them to off-panel limbo if they wanted them out of the way for their stories. And a side note: considering how Marvel loves to hammer home in press interviews and puff pieces that what makes Peter work with audiences how "relatable" he is, I have to ask, how is all of the people he cares about dying or having something traumatic happen to them before his 20s are over relatable to the average Joe? First his parents, then his Uncle Ben, then his girlfriend's dad that he was starting to bond with like a father figure, then Gwen, then the dad of his best friend dies - after his best friend becomes a drug addict, btw - and then Jean Dewolf who was one of the few cops on the force that actually trusted and worked with Spidey, then his other best friend becomes a traumatized Nam vet, then his co-worker slash friend slash Hobgoblin pawn Ned Leeds, then his Aunt May, then his child with MJ, and I can keep going with this for more paragraphs. You know what's a lot more relatable to average readers than your first serious girlfriend dying? Breaking up with/getting dumped by your first true love - maybe after discovering a secret you've been hiding from them that would hurt them deeply considering a previous event involving their dad would be a good impetus for this? Just spitballing here. But no, we get the lazy story where the writer just kills her off because it's the easier and faster to get to what he wants while also getting some shock value/controversy hype sales plus the fallacy many readers have with conflating darker, grimmer writing = more adult/sophisticated and better writing helping generate some undeserved critical acclaim. There's this idea in comic book fandom that because a story features an iconic, milestone BIG DEAL moment for a character, that the story it happens in is automatically a good story and a classic, and I just do not agree with that mindset. You can have a story feature a BIG DEAL moment that "CHANGES THEM FOREVER" and the story can still suck. People need to actually go back and read Conway's ASM work, work even Conway says on the whole is far inferior to his later Web of/Spectacular run with the character in the 80s (and let's be honest - that 80s run is better, but at best its just above journeyman level quality writing, so what does that say about his ASM issues?) and ask themselves, "Is this story actually all that good? Is it REALLY a gem of a classic buried in the middle of a run of substandard to mediocre Spidey stories that is only remembered for 2 other things outside of The Night Gwen Stacy Died (ie the creation of the Punisher - a character that would became far more interesting in the early 80s in the hands of better writers than he ever was under Conway's pen, and the original Clone Saga - which is only remembered for it laying the groundwork for the 90s Clone Saga, not for actually being a good story) and has otherwise been largely forgotten by fans? Or is TNGSD more on the level of quality of the rest of Conway's forgettable 70s ASM work and we only remember it and treat it with such high regard because the moment Gwen dies is an unforgettable, BIG DEAL moment for Peter that informs a lot of later, much better work with the character?"
I wonder if things would have turned out better for Jason if he had been allowed to just leave the Batman book alive and just live on as a failed Robin. It seems like the deck was stacked against him from the start, but it’s telling that the only solution they could come up with was to kill him off and take the easy way out. I also find it ironic that Frank Miller had the gall to say that Jason’s death was cynical, considering how he wrote and treated Robin in All Star Batman. That’s the pot calling the kettle black for sure.
Actually, I think Jason could have become a villain/anti -hero even if he had survived. Although the Joker wouldn't have killed him in this scenario, Jason would probably still be traumatize for the beating he suffered at the hands of the clown, plus angry for the fact the Joker tried to killed his mother as well. In both situations, he would end up going against Batman's moral code and become a more violent vigilante.
@@alexandrefrauches132 maybe. Maybe not. Without Jason’s death, Batman wouldn’t be as distant and would keep in contact with him to make sure he was emotionally stable by having him talk with Leslie Thompkins
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 Yeah, all the options he said were interesting (specially the effect Jason presence could cause in the stories that came after his death) but I think Jason would end up leaving Bruce either way and becoming a anti hero. I don't see how a kid like him could end up becoming different after all the torture he suffer at the hands of the Joker.
Legacy of Death In the Family would definitely be Under the Red Hood. The best Interpretation of the Story. Either way It's About Revenge, The Revenge of Jason Todd Against Batman and Joker.
Regardless of how one feels about the way it was done,, hearing about the fan response to Jason's death, positive and negative, it just made me think that that is a hallmark of good storytelling.
I am shocked to hear you don't particularly like the story. The final confrontation between Batman and the Joker is amongst the best I've ever read. Joker's speech to the U.N. has been often replicated, but never duplicated. Plus, the relationship between Batman and Superman is so interesting and nuanced. I love this story to death (some pun intended).
I don't dislike it. I think there a lot of really good elements to A Death in the Family and some questionable parts. It's a complicated one for me, but I still view it positively.
I agree with Frank Miller, this was very cynical of DC. It really felt like DC banded together with the Todd haters and had hung him in downtown for all to see and laugh at him. The part that gets me most is the voting aspect, it's pathetic and a cowardly move. Just very desperate all around. What came of Todd's death however was really interesting and it allowed for a lot of development for Batman... and then Todd came back and it cheapened everything. SIGH
Batman even after 1986 is still a family man and since 1970 the Batman comics have been pretty adult. Truth be told Batman is a family man regardless if the stories are light hearted or adult.
Unfortunately the writer took the fall _hard_ because the merchandising partners selling Batman-and-Robin-themed products were angry about the death of Robin and DC basically laid all the blame on that writer, and essentialy drove him out of the company de facto by no longer giving him jobs to work on.
I would like to correct people on something. I’ve heard people say dick Grayson became nightwing in 1983. This is wrong! Here’s the thing Jason Todd was introduced in 1983 but dick was still Robin that year. It was in February of 1984 when dick gave up being Robin and gave it to Jason then in July of 84 dick became nightwing. I want everyone to remember that so misinformation doesn’t spread on the internet.
Ironic decades later we would have Damian Wayne who's just like Jason when he was introduced but way worse. The only difference is Damian got a more different reaction
Hmm.. it could have been interesting if Jason Todd actually Lived would have affected the way dc told their stories in 90’s like the death of Superman ?
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Personally I think that the red hood character should have been an elseworld story instead of in continuity that way it’s more impactful (in my opinion) and just to see like as an “what if” story rather than bring him back to life in the main continuity. In other words what went wrong in this story was the resurrection of Jason Todd, it works as an elseworld story but not as an in continuity story
I find it ironic that Frank Miller, the guy who wrote All Star Batman and Robin, thought Jason’s death was the most cynical thing DC ever did.
Yeah, I legit had to do a double take when I found that quote.
Exactly? Frank Miller of all people? He wrote some of the darkest stories ever told. The Dark Knight Returns, Daredevil: Born Again, All Star Batman and Robin... the list goes on.
Sure, but from a company perspective, having it be done through a toll-free phone number is just extra cynical. And most of the Miller's dark stories are out of continuity anyways. Killing off a character in- vs out-of continuity is a very real difference in scope and impact. So as odd as his quote seems at face-value, I tend to agree with it. Imagine DC having an online poll to kill off Damian Wayne or Wallace West or something like that now-a-days. Yikes!
Miller doesn't mean the death was cynical, he means that DC said "here, vote for this kid's death"
Miller writes dark stories for those that enjoy them, like myself, but when the main Batman title says the life of this kid is in the hands of the fans, a majority of which are kids themselves is what he finds cynical, the vote was cynical, whereas if they'd just rolled with the story it would have been more acceptable and would have seemed shocking but weighty story, but instead it comes off as sick, that DC left it to fans and revealed they wanted that outcome.
@Cartoon Getaway
I find that bit of irony hilarious. xD
"Dead doesn't always mean dead." Unless you're Uncle Ben
It used to be unless you were Jason Todd, Bucky Barnes, or Uncle Ben. And then the 2000's happened.
Or Batman's parents. Or Daredevil's dad, Punisher's wife and kids, everyone on Krypton and so on.
@@Xehanort10 It’s like only characters in origin stories stay dead.
@@craftymasterproductions4218 Captain Mar'Vell?
@@Xehanort10 I have to read Punisher #11 but the new Punisher run, his wife is back with help from The hand.
An interesting tidbit about "A Death in the Family" that I was surprised to not see mentioned is that one fan had set up his computer to call the death line every five minutes for the voting periods duration, swinging the vote. Its always fascinated me the amount of vitriol that one fan held for Jason.
Makes you wonder how he feels about Jason nowadays
Worth it, got Red Hood because of it.
That’s some Reverse Flash level of pettiness 😂
The reaction to Jason Todd’s death should serve as an example to future writers: you can’t please everyone. Even if you ask the audience what they want, there will always be another side that despises the decisions you made. So, just tell the story you want to tell.
It wasn´t just the death, it was the arc that was very poor. There isn´t emotion, intensity, good sequences. Everything is predictable and childish. People say "A death in the family is a classic must have". It isn´t. People don't know what a good story is.
This video's so good, Jason's not the only one getting a crowbar, ifyouknowhatImean
Big fan Matt, love your Daredevil videos! 😈
Have you 2 ever collabed?
@@joeclarke7982 Owen did a few voices in some of Matt's videos. Most prominently as Grant Morrison in the video on Flex Mentallo.
I'm really surprised that in all these years nobody's ever written a story showing a Jason from a universe where he survived.
There's the animated movie A Death in the Family that is multiple choice, but I got through all the endings in a couple hours, it's rather interesting.
You have to own a physical copy if you want choices though, the digital is a poor version of Under the Red Hood.
@@thomaswelbourn55 yeah, I think that's a great concept! I really want to buy it, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
I was just thinking about this!
The panels with Joker using the crowbar to pummel Jason is just terrifying.
I feel bad for Jason. The nostalgic fans rejected him, and ecen the writers did not care for him, deliberately making him unlikeable and ultimately killing him off in Death in the family.
Ironically, fans started to accept him after he returned as a gun wielding anti hero.
"Perhaps I treated you too harshly" - Fans after Jason's death.
*after Jason's democratic execution
“The flying Todd’s”
Oh no that’s just cruel
It seems to me that Jason in every single way is gotten the short end of the stick and in a lot of ways that makes them more compelling to me.
The best thing about A death in the family is that, without it, there would never be a much, much better story like A Lonely Place of Dying, which was also Dennis O'Neil trying to make up for the whole shock value he, Jim Starlin and Jim Aparo orchestrated.
Facts
A Lonely Place of Dying is a really great story. I revisited it when writing this video and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I think both stories are good and together they become a very great Batman story that fits perfectly with Batman comics main theme, about dealing with lost and tragedy and becoming a better person.
I loathe A Death in the Family and think it’s a stupid book but A Lonely Place of Dying is really good and its themes of grief and reconciliation are really well done. It’s also a pretty good two face story
I've always found the circumstances surrounding A Death in the Family fascinating. Somehow I'd never heard the bit about the phone vote idea coming from a Saturday Night Live sketch, that's wild!
I forget who said "the three permanently dead characters are Bucky, Gwen, and Jason. They can never be resurrected." Well, depending on how you see Ghost Spider/Gwenpool they're all alive and death in comics is meaningless.
I want to write a story in which Uncle Ben comes back, and he tests Peter to see if he lives up to what he told him, "with great power comes great responsibility"
And when Peter fails Ben reveals himself and tells Peter he has to give it up and live a normal life.
Gwen’s still dead in comics but Bucky and Jason are back.
@@jakeproven256 that's mostly because the death and Return of Superman. because prior to that storyline comic-book deaths were permanent. at this point it only really seems to apply to minor characters like Goliath, Thunderstrike, and Pantha.
@@mrheroprimes Not exactly true there were characters who died and came back prior to death of superman such as Professor X, Jean Grey, Adam Warlock, Lightning Lad from the Legion of Superheroes, Elektra. Death of superman didn't start this trend it just made it more common.
Personally, I think killing Jason Todd was a good choice bc it gave Batman more growth in his character as when Jason dead, it gave Bruce the realization that if he’s going to take young kids and having them fight crime against dangerous criminals then he needs to be more cautious and properly trained them so they won’t end up like Jason.
Plus, I think Jason was doomed to fail from the beginning. The writers were constantly struggling with the character simply bc having someone else taking up the mantle that was use from a previous person was pretty new to them. And bc they were so used to Dick being Robin, and wasn’t expecting Dick to be outside of the Batman book, doing his own thing with the Teen Titans, it was hard to figure out what to do with him. And if you think about it, Jason was more like an experiment as the writers were testing to see what work or not, which is why when they created Tim Drake, they used what they learned with Jason Todd (what worked and what didn’t worked) so Tim could be successful for both fans, audiences, critics.
I highly recommend checking out UA-camr SalazarKnight on death of the family
This story forever cemented the Joker as a legendary crowbar user, rivaled only by Gordon Freemen.
the only reason Jason Todd died in death of the family was because a fan who disliked to Jason Todd so much decided to cheat using their computer to call the kill line a hundred times, meaning if that person hadn't cheated Jason would have survived. If you think about the only reason Jason Todd was resurrected years later was because of the death of Superman/Return of Superman comic arcs,
because prior to that storyline character deaths in comics were set in stone.
"Gwen Stacy was much more interesting dead than alive."
Marvel: I don't understand the sentence.
What they mean is that most of the writers at the time preferred Mary Jane as Peter’s girlfriend instead of Gwen. So as a result, Gwen wasn’t given much character development; making her seem boring compared to MJ. The only reason she stayed in the book for as long as she did is because Stan Lee loved Gwen because he based her off of his wife,Joan.
@@Dhampir101980 now that's more fucked up now.
@@Dhampir101980 But Stan Lee literally gave Conway the go-ahead. The only grief he really seemed to have was with the backlash. Still, I'd be interested to hear where you learned about this.
@@laststrike4411 the UA-cam channel Casually Comics does a whole video on Gwen’s character and why the decision was made for her to die. Stan did in fact give his blessing for her to be killed . Watch the video, it’s very good
Great video, as always. BTW, the comic itself is bizarre AF. Yes, they killed Robin but after that, the Ayatollah Khomeini makes the Joker his ambassador. Batman tries to get revenge but he has to fight Superman because the Joker, as an ambassador, has diplomatic immunity. Even more WTF is the part were the Joker tries to kill the entire UN, again while officially and legally representing the nation of Iran. I know that the legacy of Jason Todd is a big deal, but the third act of this saga is pure action-packed 80s weirdness.
The only reason people talk about this comic is because they killed off Jason Todd this comic is not memorable outside of that
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 Yeah, 100% true. Still it has a lot of charm. To me, the best Starlin and Aparo did was the, also bizarre, "Ten Nights of the Beast". It has Alfred impersonating Ronald Reagan, it has caos and mayhem and a small (but also great) twist at the end.
@@robertopulitano8093 oh ok
They certainly overused the "diplomatic immunity" thing back then to the point it became tiresome.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 Starlin subtle he is not! Remember when Thanos rearranged a couple of planets to spell is own name? He also used a lot of real world politics. The Joker ambassador remind me of the "diplomatic immunity" villain of Lethal Weapon 2. Maybe it was a fear of americans at the time: foreigners doing illegal stuff while protected by the law.
I’ve always wondered how much Jason being dead in DKR led to Jason’s eventual death within main continuity.
It’s also cool that Aparro had pages for him being alive, reminds me of the original pages from the Dark Phoenix Saga before Shooter told them to change the ending.
"I love Jason, but I don't love him enough to pay real money so he doesn't die"
This is my personal favorite Batman story actually, I know it’s very convoluted but once that death happens and you see that switch in Batman it’s hard to put the book down. Definitely his biggest lost at the time since that of his parents in my opinion
I actually liked when Jason came back, the concept of a Robin gone bad is just such an interesting possibility. Then DC blew it by making him a Punisher knock off. Batman would never put up with a gun wielding member of his “Bat-family” and it just screams of DC trying to get another nickel out of Batman than a story driven concept. Villainous former Robin? For me, yes all day. Anti-Hero Jason? Should have stayed dead.
A punisher knock of ? That by itself shows that you don't understand red hood and you don't read red hood hell batman didn't accept Jason to the family and even kicked Jason out of Gotham after he tried to kill the penguin
Death in the Family was a definitive storyline for me. Brought a ‘holy crap’ moment in Hush and really dropped my jaw with Under the Red Hood. Then the one shot where he crawls out of the grave, wow. Lost Days was a fun take on what happened leading up to his reappearance. It’s one of those characters that reinvigorates the family much like Damian. Unfortunately Jason got all the hate right out the gate. Glad there was a greater purpose for him.
I bought this when the first Batman film came out and this was my first DC graphic novel at the time.
If nothing else, this story spawned Tim Drake.
Great video! I'm not a big fan of the way how Jason is portray nowadays, with most stories about his past showcasing him as already rebellious agressive kid from the start. Not only this makes Batman look terrible in judging people (if jason was reckless kid from start there was no way Batman would ever recruit him) but ignores Jason development as character and the events that lead him to become more violent and reckless (ex: the death of his father) as well the good moments he had as Robin (ex: Before the explosion, he tried to save his mother, even after she betrayed him).
What's wrong with Jason Todd now I'm curious
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 The problem I have with Jason is the the fact that most stories nowadays show flashbacks of his past most of the time portraying him as reckless violent brat right from start, which ignores the good qualities and moments that Jason had as Robin (otherwise Batman would never had recruited him in the first place) as well the fact that he didn't start like that. He was a good person who, after events such as the death of his father, became more impulsive and rebellious.
@@alexandrefrauches132 I agree
Shame the events were undermined by having Jason come alive again. Much like pretty much every bad thing Joker does that now never really has any consequence as it gets retconned later down the line.
4:50 to which I say, "Sir, he can be both. Parents are complicated. And Bruce as a loving father but kind of messed up is actually pretty fitting for him."
Answer: because more people voted for Jason to die over the phone tally.
After Jason's death and before his resurrection I always hated how his character was treated. Blamed for his own death because he supposedly didn't listen to Batman when he actually died because his mother betrayed him to The Joker. Said mother also just turned away and smoked while Joker beat the shit out of him with the crowbar. Bruce using Jason's memory as a "Don't be like him" to the other Robins and the Batgirls was a dick move too.
The stigma persists to this day
To be honest though, I don't think Jason Todd was that bad of Robin because I believe the writers could have done more with him.
Plus DC could have done an Elseworld story were he survived thanks to his mother shielding him from the blast. And after coming out a coma he would focused on being a better hero (though he would have still held a grudge against the Joker as he did with Two-Face).
So good!
Your uploads always brighten the day, best comics channel.
Thanks so much!
Of course Conway was on board for it. They literally tried to kill original Jason (Earth-one Jason) on his FIRST NIGHT as Robin when Crazy Quilt mistook him for Dick and went after him for revenge. It was a two part story between Batman and Detective comics and there were a few weeks in between the two. The way part 1 left off was SUPER clear that Jason was dead, but part 2 picked up like he'd just gotten into a schoolyard rumble.
They poked fun at the idea with a Scarecrow gassed Bats hallucinating a dead Jason later the same year. They were playing with Jason dying from day one.
This is what happens when you let someone who hates a character write a character.
uh oh nightwings in trouble...
@@oshwaflz Why?
@@freedomprice9173 because the nightwing writers hate him, at least they did last time i cared to read the comics
I 100% believe Jason would be in a coma if the fans voted for him to live. The editors/writers wanted him gone bottom line
That’s even worse 😭😭😭
Great video man, i love the Jason story behind the scenes..and LOVE the guest voices in there. PERFECT
Ha. Didn't realise "The Dark Knight Returns" was released before "Death In The Family". It's like Frank Miller was unknowingly foreshadowing events, despite not agreeing with the decision.
I remember that SNL covered a death in the family on weekend update
Great video Owen, brought light to some more specifics of the saga of Jason Todd's life and death to me honestly. Quick note Ethiopia isn't in the "middle east" it's an African country and not an arab country in Asia. Keep up the good vids man!
great video as always. I remember that at the time there was also a campaign around the breakfast cereal "Trix": should the rabbit get the cereal at last? in that poll also, the answer was a cruel "NO!" I think people just wanted to see what would happen.
Uncle Ben had gotten a lot of mentions here as a character who stayed dead, though it's worth mentioning that Ben Parker actually came back in Peter David's "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" series, but Marvel abandoned the storyline and cancelled the title after the abysmal "One More Day," so the thread was never given a proper conclusion. I'd love to know Peter David's thoughts on this...
Jason’s death was huge because he died so brutally. He became interesting in death. Near the end of his run he was fleshed out. Before he was just a stand in for Dick. What isn’t mentioned in the video was the firings at DC because of this. Because well one day a WB exec was bombared with media calls to explain something he has no idea what was going on. Also Denny got checked when WB exec lashed out and told him “we have like 200 products with this guy on it (Dick not Jason)”.
Nice, so glad your covering this story!
Glad you enjoy it!
One of the most important event in batman's history , and also one of the most important books from my collection, thank you very much owen for this great video, congratulations
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
I ...the story makes me feel dirty. Especially when his mother turns away from his beating and lights a smoke.
She never cared about him. Nobody did except Bruce and Alfred.
That's depressing.
I do like how he came back as Red Hood. That Jim Lee costume was awesome.
A Lonely Place Of Dying is one of my favorite Batman comics and introduced my all time favorite robin Tim Drake and without Death In The Family it wouldn't have been as impactful as it was
Great video. Really well done.
Thank you very much!
This was pretty. Maybe some day you could do an in depth look at the intriduction if Tim Drake. Noone ever talks about that, but it explores the concept if why batman needs a robin, as well as, the creators trying to figure out just why Jason todd didnt work and how they could fix that in a new robin character...
Literally reading this last night!!
Let's Turn Dead Sidekicks into Badass Anti-Heroes.
That's basically what they did with his character
Love your content man! I truly think this was the most tragic but also most iconic moment in Batman lore. Much like Doomsday for Superman.
Thank you, Jordan!
I've watched videos about this topic many times (pretty much mandatory for all comic book fans), but none of them has been as well thought out, researched, and streamlined as yours.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that!
I've bern highly anticipating this video😁
Great video!
Thank you!
Jason Todd, Batman's greatest failure.
Bucky Barnes, Captain America's greatest failure.
Great video! Also, I think this is the first time I've seen your face. Cute!! Shout out to Nando v Movies for the dramatic reading of quotes.
A Death in the Family got me into comic book collecting!
The fact the guy who infamously recognized killed Gwen Stacey thought The Robin concept was vital to the batman mythos speaks volumes.
A Death in the Family, that title represented the fractured relationship between Batman and Robin, but also Jason's own family.
It's funny how this story is remembered for the choice people voted for.
I love this story, and I love it's effect on Batman and his stories after this, even Under the Hood by Winnick was great, but after that and in more recent years DC has obliterated what was great about Jason, the dark cloud over Bruce
weird that frank miller would say that when he himself made his own version of death in the family in the dark knight continuity
It's not that Jason died that makes it cynical, it's the fact they said you can vote for that, the way it was presented is what Miller found cynical, to be able to vote for the execution of a kid.
I was only 4-5 when I voted for Robins death over the phone. I regret nothing.
9:00 "Robin I already told you to not call me Shirley"
I helped kill Jason Todd so I’ve always been super invested in this storyline. I remember so clearly begging my mom to let me make the expensive ass phone call to murder the kid 😅 Thank you for making this video.
As a 17 yr old kid I knew this was going to be a bad idea. I had no idea how bad it would turn out with the ridiculous return of Jason Todd. Great video.
Great video. I was late to Batman comics starting in 1989. I grew up on the Batman 60s show and Super Friends and the Dynamic Duo was my main reason for starting to collect. I was shocked to learn that not only was Dick not Robin but Robin was killed off. A Death in the Family was the first trade I read. It was a shocking story. To this day it is one of my favorite stories now.
14:45 Trivia: in Snyder’s mind, this is Dick’s costume, the Joker killed Duck in the Snyderverse because Snyder does not understand the DCU at all.
It gave us Jason as Red Hood, so it’s awesome for me.
I wholeheartedly agree with Jerry Conway's sensible statement. Miller's on the other hand is simply 'the pot calling the kettle black' lol
Gerry Conway's line that essentially "Jason and Gwen were never the well fleshed out as characters, they became far more interesting in death than they were when they were alive" rings really hollow to me, because my reaction to that is, "Dude, YOU were the writer on ASM who killed her off, if you thought she was that uninteresting and not fleshed out, YOU have the ability to change that as the fucking writer, YOU can flesh them out and make them interesting if you're actually worth your salt as a writer and deserving of the job you were handed."
It just smacks of making excuses for lazy, hack writing. If you're the writer of a book where you got handed a character that was both important to the cast and yet not really all that over with the fans, killing them off to get rid of them while generating some shock interest sales and cheap pathos for the lead to set up a character arc should always be the last resort after first trying to build up the character in question, not the first thing done so you can get to focusing more on the characters you'd rather work with, otherwise don't take the gig.
If the writers thought Jason was unlikable and unpopular, they had the power to change that if they were actually talented enough writers to deserve the job by putting him through an arc that transformed him into a more likable character. If Gerry thought Mary Jane was more interesting and likable as a romantic interest for Peter, then while he was writing ASM he had a chance to change that; if a writer is actually good at their job, then they can do something about transforming Gwen into a more interesting and likable love interest with their writing talents, or tell the more difficult story to tell of Peter and Gwen breaking up because they're not right for eachother (if that's what the writer really believes) to make room for Mary Jane as the love interest after a character arc where Peter grieves the now ended relationship. This kind of excuse making for these kinds of stories and the fact that the sales were always pretty good paved the way for the bloodbath in the 2000s of supporting cast members and B and C list heroes that writers just killed off to generate interesting in their books while "clearing out the dead wood" when they could have just sent them to off-panel limbo if they wanted them out of the way for their stories.
And a side note: considering how Marvel loves to hammer home in press interviews and puff pieces that what makes Peter work with audiences how "relatable" he is, I have to ask, how is all of the people he cares about dying or having something traumatic happen to them before his 20s are over relatable to the average Joe? First his parents, then his Uncle Ben, then his girlfriend's dad that he was starting to bond with like a father figure, then Gwen, then the dad of his best friend dies - after his best friend becomes a drug addict, btw - and then Jean Dewolf who was one of the few cops on the force that actually trusted and worked with Spidey, then his other best friend becomes a traumatized Nam vet, then his co-worker slash friend slash Hobgoblin pawn Ned Leeds, then his Aunt May, then his child with MJ, and I can keep going with this for more paragraphs. You know what's a lot more relatable to average readers than your first serious girlfriend dying? Breaking up with/getting dumped by your first true love - maybe after discovering a secret you've been hiding from them that would hurt them deeply considering a previous event involving their dad would be a good impetus for this? Just spitballing here. But no, we get the lazy story where the writer just kills her off because it's the easier and faster to get to what he wants while also getting some shock value/controversy hype sales plus the fallacy many readers have with conflating darker, grimmer writing = more adult/sophisticated and better writing helping generate some undeserved critical acclaim. There's this idea in comic book fandom that because a story features an iconic, milestone BIG DEAL moment for a character, that the story it happens in is automatically a good story and a classic, and I just do not agree with that mindset. You can have a story feature a BIG DEAL moment that "CHANGES THEM FOREVER" and the story can still suck. People need to actually go back and read Conway's ASM work, work even Conway says on the whole is far inferior to his later Web of/Spectacular run with the character in the 80s (and let's be honest - that 80s run is better, but at best its just above journeyman level quality writing, so what does that say about his ASM issues?) and ask themselves, "Is this story actually all that good? Is it REALLY a gem of a classic buried in the middle of a run of substandard to mediocre Spidey stories that is only remembered for 2 other things outside of The Night Gwen Stacy Died (ie the creation of the Punisher - a character that would became far more interesting in the early 80s in the hands of better writers than he ever was under Conway's pen, and the original Clone Saga - which is only remembered for it laying the groundwork for the 90s Clone Saga, not for actually being a good story) and has otherwise been largely forgotten by fans? Or is TNGSD more on the level of quality of the rest of Conway's forgettable 70s ASM work and we only remember it and treat it with such high regard because the moment Gwen dies is an unforgettable, BIG DEAL moment for Peter that informs a lot of later, much better work with the character?"
I wonder if things would have turned out better for Jason if he had been allowed to just leave the Batman book alive and just live on as a failed Robin. It seems like the deck was stacked against him from the start, but it’s telling that the only solution they could come up with was to kill him off and take the easy way out.
I also find it ironic that Frank Miller had the gall to say that Jason’s death was cynical, considering how he wrote and treated Robin in All Star Batman. That’s the pot calling the kettle black for sure.
Actually, I think Jason could have become a villain/anti -hero even if he had survived. Although the Joker wouldn't have killed him in this scenario, Jason would probably still be traumatize for the beating he suffered at the hands of the clown, plus angry for the fact the Joker tried to killed his mother as well. In both situations, he would end up going against Batman's moral code and become a more violent vigilante.
@@alexandrefrauches132 maybe. Maybe not. Without Jason’s death, Batman wouldn’t be as distant and would keep in contact with him to make sure he was emotionally stable by having him talk with Leslie Thompkins
@@alexandrefrauches132 comic Drake made a video on what they could have done with Jason Todd if they decided he should live
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 Yeah, all the options he said were interesting (specially the effect Jason presence could cause in the stories that came after his death) but I think Jason would end up leaving Bruce either way and becoming a anti hero. I don't see how a kid like him could end up becoming different after all the torture he suffer at the hands of the Joker.
@@alexandrefrauches132 agreed
Legacy of Death In the Family would definitely be Under the Red Hood. The best Interpretation of the Story. Either way It's About Revenge, The Revenge of Jason Todd Against Batman and Joker.
My uncle voted in that poll. He wanted Jason to live, and he was so shocked when Red Hood was Jason Todd.
Another vandalization of Frank Miller's work; he eluded to it, and clueless DC cashed in on it.
Regardless of how one feels about the way it was done,, hearing about the fan response to Jason's death, positive and negative, it just made me think that that is a hallmark of good storytelling.
I am shocked to hear you don't particularly like the story. The final confrontation between Batman and the Joker is amongst the best I've ever read. Joker's speech to the U.N. has been often replicated, but never duplicated. Plus, the relationship between Batman and Superman is so interesting and nuanced. I love this story to death (some pun intended).
I don't dislike it. I think there a lot of really good elements to A Death in the Family and some questionable parts. It's a complicated one for me, but I still view it positively.
The fact they made him and ambassador of their country was the dumbest thing I've ever seen in a comic book
I agree with Frank Miller, this was very cynical of DC. It really felt like DC banded together with the Todd haters and had hung him in downtown for all to see and laugh at him. The part that gets me most is the voting aspect, it's pathetic and a cowardly move. Just very desperate all around. What came of Todd's death however was really interesting and it allowed for a lot of development for Batman... and then Todd came back and it cheapened everything. SIGH
hold up was that nando v movies reading that quote
It sure was.
@@OwenLikesComics well isn't that nice
@@souryak1251 he offered to do it too, it's really appreciated!
Oh yeah... I didn't realize that.
Just the fact that there were over 10k active readers of a single comic at that time is staggering when compared to today’s numbers.
Love that Jim Aparo art 👍👍
That sounds like the guy from NerdSync. Cool.
i remember this being a big deal!
I read A Death in the Family after watching Under the Red Hood aka my favorite Batman movie.
Beautiful story.
OMG that's Nando V movies voice
hard to believe so many comic fans wanted a character to die.... with friends like that who needs enemies 🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂
Tim drake = my favorite Robin
Batman even after 1986 is still a family man and since 1970 the Batman comics have been pretty adult. Truth be told Batman is a family man regardless if the stories are light hearted or adult.
Unfortunately the writer took the fall _hard_ because the merchandising partners selling Batman-and-Robin-themed products were angry about the death of Robin and DC basically laid all the blame on that writer, and essentialy drove him out of the company de facto by no longer giving him jobs to work on.
Which is one of the first Madagascar movie hit theaters
Nice
The movie scene where little Jason says becoming Robin is the best day of his life still makes me a bit sad:/
Fans made the right choice for the development of the character
Imagine if this story happened in the 60's TV series
I would like to correct people on something. I’ve heard people say dick Grayson became nightwing in 1983. This is wrong! Here’s the thing Jason Todd was introduced in 1983 but dick was still Robin that year. It was in February of 1984 when dick gave up being Robin and gave it to Jason then in July of 84 dick became nightwing. I want everyone to remember that so misinformation doesn’t spread on the internet.
Ironic decades later we would have Damian Wayne who's just like Jason when he was introduced but way worse. The only difference is Damian got a more different reaction
I had no idea the vote was that close. I always assumed it was a much wider margin. (I voted twice in favor of him living.)
Hmm.. it could have been interesting if Jason Todd actually Lived would have affected the way dc told their stories in 90’s like the death of Superman ?
I got batman #427, and #428.
Was watching this when I realized that Batman would have been awesome in Re:Creators.