The SPIDER-MAN Clone Saga - What Went Wrong?
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- Опубліковано 1 кві 2020
- In this video, Owen discusses the real-life history behind one of the most infamous Spider-Man stories in all of comic book history, The Clone Saga, and how a simple 1973 comic book story spiralled into one of the most controversial comic events of all time.
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“Ben WAS the clone all along, MJ has a miscarriage, and splits up with Peter.”
Wow, that’s...quite literally everything we didn’t want.
That's not the worst part. The worst part is that 2 years later, John Byrne decided to retcon Aunt May's beautiful and tragic death, by saying that she was a genetically modified actress hired by Norman Osborn to make Peter go through tons of grief. If not for Straczynski's brilliant writing of Aunt May in the 2000's which actually gave her a character, there would be no upsides to the resurrection. Also, MJ actually doesn't split up with Peter, cuz the next issue, they're shown getting over their grief together.
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 what a shit show 😄
@@DemonVido Yup
That’s also a weird sentence too
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 This is a certified comics™Ⓒ moment
Ah yes, The Clone Saga. The poster child for needlessly convoluted storylines that were rampant in the 1990s.
It's probably the most 90's of 90's comics to ever have been a 90's comic.
@@OwenLikesComics I also feel that embodies many of the problems and harmful/gimmicky trends that contributed to the decline in popularity for comics in the 90s.
The only contender from DC I can think of is the Armaggedon 2001 series from 1991, and it wasn't anywhere near as bad even if the ending was equally disappointing.
Just because the clone sega was a mess don't mean the entire era was full of bad story.
Yeah. It's a very 90s mindset that "convoluted= deep." It's also sort of popular in the 00s as well unfortunately.
Ben reily could really have been the wally west of the marvel Universe.
Poras Srivastava no! Wally West is awesome Ben Reilly sucks don’t compare the two.
@@jakeproven256 bruh.
@Poras Srivasteva
See when you put it that way it's a real dang shame that didn't end up as the case.
@@jakeproven256
Whoa how bad was Ben Reily...?
Just no. Spider-Man is not a gimmick to pass around like they love to do it in DC. There is just one Spider-Man, and if its not Peter Parker, then I will not read it and I'm pretty sure it sucks. Miles Morales is different, because he is from a different universe and not just another Spider-Man. And don't forget, Barry Allen wasn't the first Flash, so of course it worked another time. Try that with Batman or Superman, and lets see how long that works. Peter Parker is that iconic as Spider-Man as Clark and Bruce in their alter egos.
The Clone Saga is a textbook example of a story having a promising start and then slowly devolving into a confusing, drawn out mess.
Agreed
Sounds like you're describing a Grant Morrison story
Exactly
It had so much potential
Then they branched off twenty times
They should have had a clear layout of what tthey wanted, and followed it
Saying that, I enjoyed his face off against Tombstone
@@ComicBookGuy420 He had a vs Tombstone damn I loved those
But I read and own some of the class TS fights so I'm good but a shame I like me TS
Like the multiverse
Spider-Man: THIS IS STARTING TO SOUND LIKE A BAD COMIC BOOK PLOT
Honestly, I could use that quote in 90% of my videos.
Aunt May died, Peter and MJ were going to have a baby, Peter retired after losing his powers, and Ben Reilly as the new Spiderman was cool, everything was great...until some idiot decided to "reveal" that Ben was the real Peter, and fans have been following the adventures of a freaking clone for the last 20 years...
Fans were mad, and you could see Marvel doing damage control, and all resulted with everything going back to the status quo in the laziest way posible; Norman is back, Peter gets his powers back for no reason, MJ loses the baby, it turns out Ben was the clone after all, Peter is back as Spiderman, and of course, aunt May is actually alive, and the lady who died was an actress (?).
This was even worse than the end of the Death of Superman Saga, when the anwser to the whole thing was that Superman never actually died, because at least there it all went back to the status quo, but after the Clone Saga things were actually worse, because now Norman was back, and Marvel had to start making dumb stories around that (remember when Peter had to create four different new super hero identities?).
Plus, all the emotional weight of May's death, Peter and MJ having a baby, heck, even Norman's death back in the '70s, all gone, nothing mattered!
Anyway, something I didnt know was that they originally wanted to use Mephisto to "fix" the mess, good thing they didnt do that, imagine being so lazy, stupid, and insulting to your fanbase by having Peter Parker making a deal with the freaking devil just so they can return things back to the status quo...so glad they never did that!
Ben was revealed as the real Peter before Peter retired and Ben became the new Spider-Man, unless you're just comparing to the original plan.
“so glad they never did that!”
So...does anyone wanna tell him?
Legion;Driver it’s a joke lol
Wait it was!?
"Good thing they never actually used the devil to return things to the Status quo?" Have you heard of One More Day, cuz Joe Quesada does exactly that.
Am I the only one who loves the scarlet spiders original costume? The hoodie, outside web shooters & cartridge belt also introducing impact webbing and stingers just thought it was cool
Not just that, but Ben's Spider-Man costume is great too. The classic costume but with the giant sprawling spider, the half-boots and full blue arms with the red fingertips. It's such a cool costume, it's been inspiring so many newer costumes to date, such as the MCU Iron Spider and the Superior Spider-Man.
Yeah I dug that too loved the full blue arms & Red finger tips would love to see a movie version with both, here’s hoping in the new one dr. Strange night show diff portals & dimensions with a cameo that we be awesome!
Both of Ben's costumes were always my favorite alternative spidey suits, aside from the black symbiote.
Yeah the costume is sick.
And his hair. Bleach blonde, cuz he cleans up real good!
Ah, the Clone Saga, the Spider-Man story that just wouldn’t end.
A true runaway train of a comic book story.
@@OwenLikesComics will you do any other infamous spiderman stories?
great video by the way
Definitely, what would you like to see?
@@OwenLikesComics well one more day is probably the most infamous
but the other big one was sins past where they revealed that Gwen had children with Norman..........that one certainly made a huge ruckus
Jabari Jefferson yeah, I would have prefer that Harry was the real villain of the clone saga, so that Spider-Man could join the onslaught war.
The earliest issues of the Clone Saga were good: it's too bad that idiotic editorial mandates ruined the rest of the storyline.
Yep. Dead right on that. That's why I stopped reading marvel comics. Because of spidercide . Preferred Wildcats which led me to Witchblade and the Darkness
The Whole story was badly written and badly made.
They love to do with Spidder-Man...
@@jakeproven256 Yeah... tbh I stopped a little after Maximum Carnage but I got the first whiff of the clone saga and as painful as it was - I'M DONE - I still love Spiderman but no longer and will no longer read him regularly
I have read a few Spidey comics over the last decades but none has shown me they really learned from the clone saga - I just read him selectively and that's it sadly
@@darkthorpocomicknight7891 the comics since 2007 past have gotten way better there were some hidden gems during the period before that but not many.
Incidentally, I think everyone should check out The Real Clone Saga from 2011, a 6 issue remake by the original writers meant to act as "how the story was intended to be". I feel like not enough people know about it, and it's really awesome.
I second this, it's a really interesting alternative.
I read that a while ago. It was pretty good for the most part, although I haven't read the original Clone Saga yet.
Okay can you like at least leave a link to the whole story just so we can see the cover or just some information about it?
Fuck thank god I was hoping something like that existed. Does it by any chance cover all the important plot points from the story?
(Essentially, can I just read that instead of this convoluted stressful mess and mostly not be lost going forward?)
@@Ultinuc I think so! To my knowledge it's a streamlined, overall better execution of the broad strokes, while omitting some of the weirder stuff meant to pad out the story.
It does change things, though, especially near the end, so it's not strictly canon. Reading a synopsis of the original after can't hurt.
The Clone Saga, and One More Day. Basically if Aunt May is going to die, expect the Spider-man lore to go down the toilet, and the story lines to go alone with it.
Justin Hoar Spider-Man recovered from both stories it’s your money that was down the toilet.
Honey Badger can we please move on from them I wouldn’t even be talking about the clone saga right now if not for videos being posted on UA-cam.
spoilers but
spider-man ps4
@xid If they were going to kill off Peter they wouldn't bother giving Miles a glorified DLC expansion of a game. They'd just call it Spider-Man 2. Also, they've put way too much work building up the Spider-Man PS4 brand, what with the now iconic white spider and everyone's love for Yuri Lowenthall. They aren't stupid like Naughty Dog.
I KNOW AUNT MAY DOESN’T DIE BUT U CAN’T FORGET “SINS PAST”
Ben Reilly and Kaine: the best things to come out of the Clone Saga and the most underrated Spider-Man characters ever
I can’t hate the Clone Saga because I love the Hoodie Scarlet Spider costume.
The Scarlet-Spider and Ben Reilly Spider-Man costumes are two of my faves. I remember reading the clone saga as it came out. It was mind blowing at the time. I loved it, but I've been told I like everything so yeah.
What about jackpot
And their designs are so amazing
@@zakunick1 100%
Clone Saga is a perfect example of why you need a strong Editor In Chief. The mess that Marvel comics turned into during the 90s was inevitable once Jim Shooter was let go in the late 80s.
That's a fair point. While I'm not a particular fan of Shooter or his time as Marvel editor, it's definitely clear that Marvel lacked editorial leadership in the 90's, and it directly resulted to the Clone Saga being such a mess by the time it finally wrapped up.
Caligula Pontifex marvel turned into a mess when Jim Shooter was hired at marvel shooter and budiansky haven’t done anything good storytelling wise during their time at marvel.
@@jakeproven256 I'm not saying he was the greatest writer. He was an OK writer at best. Secret Wars was not my favorite. But you can't deny he a was pretty good Editor-in-Chief. May I suggest reading the book "Marvel the Untold Story". It illustrates how dysfunctional Marvel was during the early to mid-70s prior to Shooter taking up the EIC post. The 90s saw most of the greats leave Marvel to start Image Comics and Marvel went into bankruptcy a few years later. The 80s were the high point for Marvel under Shooter's guidance.
@@caligulapontifex5759 Regarding Spiderman specifically, Shooter was pretty poor as Editor-in-Chief. Putting James Owsley at the helm of Spiderman was a horrible mistake. They ended up losing Defalco and Frenz, having the Hobgoblin revealed as Ned Leeds and unceremoniously executed by some of the Foreigner's goons and basically destroying the Rose-Kingpin backstory with the 'Gang Wars' arch that climaxed with an absurd Spiderman-Daredevil fight that involved Daredevil dressed in a fatsuit to emulate the Kingpin. I think Shooter ushered the fall of Spiderman in many ways. Prior to Shooter putting Owsley in charge of the Spiderman books, Spiderman had been consistently great from Stan Lee all the way to Defalco. Sure there were good things to come, such as Micheline's run and some of DeMatteis's stuff, but to me, they never really fully rebounded.
@@kforcer I would mainly blame Owsley's idiocracy for that. Yes Shooter hired him, but I dont think he knew what sort of stuff Owsley would pull. He just made a mistake in hiring.
I always thought they should have gone with the "Ben was the real Peter all along" story, but resolve it with them both realizing that Ben's friend Seward Trainer fudged the results for Ben's sake, but that they could never actually know who the "original" Peter Parker was because the cloning process worked too well. This would show greater maturity on the part of both as they'd be forced to accept that they could never be sure if they were "real" or not, but that it shouldn't matter. Continue with MJ and Peter not losing the baby, but Peter realizing that continuing as Spider-Man is a way to make sure the world is safer for their daughter. Continue with Peter and Ben sharing the name Spider-Man, but Ben moving to California as "Spider-Man, West Coast".
Now THAT is an ending that makes sense. Much better than making it a 23 year plot by Norman Osborn who was faking death the whole time.
If we ever get time machine... I demand this.
Despite how poorly received this saga is, Ben Reilly is still one of my favorite characters in Spider-Man comics.
Clone Saga: I’m about to be the worst story ever.
One More Day: hold my beer.
Sins Past: hold my crack rock.
Superior Spider Man: Get Rekt One More Day
@@joshuadendy7103 Its just sad Spidey literally has the top ten worst comic storylines of all time within A SINGLE DECADE - did the writers just have a competition to see who destroyed the most of the Spiderman mythology with one issue???
And this is why I hate executive meddling.
New 52.
I think the mistake that killed the clone saga was making Ben officially replace Peter as Spider-man. He was much more interesting as the scarlet spider. His personality, outlook on life, fighting style and ingenuity were all completely different than Peter’s.
Once he became Spidey, he felt like Peter-lite instead of his own unique person, and that’s when I totally lost interest.
Real_Slim_Shady Bringing Norman back cheapened his original death and weakened all his appearances since. And I HATE that we nor peter and MJ know the fate of their baby to this day. And the fact that Joey Q purposely reopened the wound in One More Day simply out of spite, makes it ever worse.
Michael Head Norman Osborn should be the villain of the Sinister Six movie because in Spectacular and PS4, he ruined enough lies
Real_Slim_Shady the rumor is that following the events of Spidey’s last movie, Norman will be one of the major threats to the MCU going forward. Maybe adapting the dark avengers storyline.
Michael Head finally someone speaking a little bit of my language!
Michael Head Norman Osborn is one of my favorite villains in the marvel universe and bringing him back was the only smart decision in the clone saga In my eyes. Now I hate the miscarriage thing and sins of the father but marvel would go on to do great things with Norman Osborn later.
man, they did such a better job of telling this story in the 90s Cartoon
I remember reading these as a kid. I really liked Ben Reily when he was a clone. He had this self-doubt because he wasn't "real" which I could relate to, and I suspect the rest of the audience could relate to that. He was always thinking "the real Spider-man would be able to do this, but I'm screwing up!" I think if they'd stuck with that, he would have stayed a good character. The problems started when they asked us to believe he'd been the real Peter all along.
Definitely. I actually have the issue where Peter is announced as being the clone. I wasn't furious but it was definitely a shock. I liked it when there was a Spider-Man and Scarlet Spider (loved his outfit).
The tag line for the clone saga should be
"...BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!!!"
In the long run, I think the resurrection of Norman Osborn paid off. People seem to forget about everything in the late 90's early 2000's with Osborn and choose just to remember Dark Reign. Also Osborn is awesomely written in the current storyline.
Osborn Marvel’s Luthor. XD
Hi, Owen! Steven Butler here- I just watched your video- I think you did a great job in your presentation. I was one of the artists working on the Clone Saga, drawing the Web Of Spider-Man series when the saga first started. I wish I could say that the storyline was less confusing BEHIND the scenes, but such would be a lie. Because the storyline continued throughout ALL the titles, I never knew how one storyline ended and another one began- and the deadlines were always really tight, so it didn’t give us much room to even think about the bigger picture- still, I gave it my best shot, and am pretty proud of the work as a whole. I know Ben Reilly has a lot of fans because he, to this very day, is my number one commission request to draw. Keep up the fantastic work on your channel- I just subscribed!
Hi Steven, thank you so much for the kind words and sharing your own insight and experiences working on the series, I greatly appreciate that. Regardless of the overall story in its final form, I don't doubt all the writers and artists worked incredibly hard to make it the best it could, yourself included. Thanks for taking the time to reach out, all the best!
DC created big events in the 90s, knightfall and the death of Superman stories. Marvel to compete decided to have a big event of their own: To ruin spider-man
Phantom Sidious u summed it up in a nutshell dc knew why they were doing marvel didn’t.
The version of this that Bendis' did in Ultimate Spiderman was pretty cool.
Agreed, I'm a big fan of the ultimate clone saga!
Thomas Judge I agree the ultimate clone saga is what the original should’ve been. And unlike the original the artwork is awesome in the original looking at the art makes me wanna puke.
@stinky pinky And he managed to make a better clone saga that's better than the mainline clone sagas.
I like how they dealt with the clone saga in the animated show, where it all happened in this alternate bad universe. So we still get the super cool Ben Riley character but don't have to take the bad stuff to heart
I really loved Scarlet Spider, both his character and his aesthetic design! About the Clone Saga, his greatest flaw to me is that's a very confusing story, which his writers didn't seem where they wanted to arrive.
Say what you will about the Clone Saga but Ben's Scarlet Spider costume is iconic
I believe the clone saga could’ve worked if the marketing department didn’t take control over the story and dragged the story for way to long it’s original plan ending which sucks because I believed peter Parker and Mary Jane deserves their happy ending with peter and Mary Jane staying married and they have their daughter mayday Parker spider-girl alive and kicking but no instead of getting that we got bullshit instead but that’s just my opinion.
Yeah I don't like bullshit writing especially when it's not the writers decision but more editorial mandate.
@@dcmarvelcomicfans9458 indeed and that always drives me nuts when editorial mandate takes a good story but then destroys it for their own greed and ego which sucks on so many levels especially for the writers who were telling their stories, heck its that line of thinking that we did get the awful one more day which destroyed peter parker and mary jane marriage and ruined a great couple and also got us the awful new 52 reboot which was also editorial mandated which a lot of characters for bullshit.
Tevya Smolka if they continued with the Child, One More Day would’ve never happened
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 I know and that's why i wished we got that original ending with baby may being alive and kicking within the main marvel universe because that could've open the door for so many stories with peter parker and mary jane being married and being great parents to there child mayday parker spider-girl would've been fantastic and proves to Joe quesada that superheroes being married and having kids isn't the end of their stories, i mean for gods sake the fantastic four both reed and sue have there kids Franklin and valeria so why can't peter parker and mary jane also have kids too.
@@TevyaSmolka I definitely agree with you an editorial mandates taking good stories and destroying it or interfering and writers original plan for their story just for greed and ego. I think it the new 52 was trying to continuity easier and also more Streamlight to understand for newer and Casual readers where the characters are young but their continuity more streamlined and easier to understand but also wanted to reimagined some of the existing characters to get some interest for the new generation that hasn't read Comics yet kind of like how Marvel's Ultimate Universe did. Except they were already doing that with about to be there Earth One comic books. And can I ask you a question what is the logic. Peter being married and having kids makes them old I know couples can get married I know young couples can get married at age 18 or in their early 20s so I don't see how that would break appealing to teenagers or people who that young but still considered teens and that's for children there are plenty of teenagers out there that are under the age of 18 to 20 that actually have kids so how does that make him too old. Editorial decisions.
I loved this storyline. As a young teenager, peak comic fan, reading month to month as it was coming out, it was excellent. Without knowing all the gossip or behind the scenes what have that we all have now, it was just a 90's series and as a massive Spider-Man fan, it was pretty epic. I loved Ben Reily, that Scarlet Spider costume is still one of my faves and the moment he dies, telling Peter to 'tell his new daughter about her Uncle Ben' as he died in his arms was some real deal stuff that hit the feels.
That said, I of course can see the bloat, but in the era, it was pretty par of the course. This is a great look at it, I loved hearing the process of how it all went down. Great video and great channel.
Knightfall kind of became a sprawling mess too with Knightquest, Knightsend, etc.
No..... no it didn’t!
The point at which Reilly was revealed to be the real Spider-Man and Parker the clone was the point at which I stopped reading Spider-Man.
But you must admit. Scarlet Spider's design is amazing.
Some say the clone saga is still going to this day.
At last check, the Jackal was a clone of Aunt May and this was all an elaborate ruse to trick Peter into finally getting his driver's license (which Ben Reilly may or may not already have).
I remember as a kid reading some random issues of the clone saga and thinking the idea that Peter was actually a clone was the coolest shit ever. Even as a kid I thought stuff like "does it even matter?". You could have done so much with the idea and they rly fumbled the bag.
"Peter's to old because he's gonna be a dad?" That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever heard! I mean seriously being a parent doesn't automatically make you old so in other words I'm calling bulls&*t on that way of thinking.
They just don't want there self insert to become a man.
@@BoricuaKelfa Marvel has used that phrase poorly in the past. It's okay if your using that and telling females "to be women" but if it's just "be a man" it's really sexist and honestly that's another issue with the clone saga it can be sexist at times.
To be honest, I much preferred *'What If Spider-Man's Clone Had Lived?'*
I'm actually very interested by this saga because it introduced two of my favorite Spider-Men; Ben Reilly & Kaine.
But like I've said before, time & time again, the 90's were a WEIRD time for Comics...
One problem with the Clone Saga is that they had clones melt when they died, even Ben Reilly, which "proved" that our Peter was the original Spidey afterall.
The problem being that they found a Spider-Man skeleton in the smokestack where "Peter" hid the skeleton...meaning that the original Peter/Spider-Man really did die in the original clone battle. The Peter we all knew for decades afterwards has always been a clone.
I've been looking forward to this video, and it did not disappoint. Really fascinating to learn all of the real-world comics history that led to the mess that was the Cone Saga. And the comparison of the Ben/Peter "who's the real clone" situation with the Principal Skinner/Armin Tamzarian episode of the Simpsons is such a perfect analogy that I actually laughed out loud.
Fantastic video, Owen! This is you doing exactly what you do best. So glad you covered this insanity.
Thank you so much, Matt. Very much appreciate it!
I read the Clone Saga growing up and only truly started to appreciate how bonkers it was in the last few years. I'd seriously recommend reading through the life of reilly blog for anyone who hasn't done so already. Cheers for a great video, might just re-read the saga as a result.
It's got tons of problems, but I still really enjoy parts of it.
The Clone Saga was the KH Dream Drop Distance of Spidey stories lmao
At least KH ddd wasn't marketing as as a third kh game like what clone saga tried to be.
The saga that ended my collecting of comics of 16 years. Now I only buy old comics from the 70's and earlier to finish my Spider-Man Collection
Every time you get executives to quit you know the story was good and it had potential, I loved it
And Now Because of Bothe “Maximum Cloneage” and “The Clone Saga” Ben Reily is the Most Underrated Spider-Man...
Owen can I ask you a question what is the logic that Marvel thinks that Peter being married and having kids makes him old? there are young couples that are married in their early 20s and as for having children teen pregnancies is a thing there's a lot of young mothers out there that are under the age of 18-20 so what is the logic in him being too old for any of that according to editorial executive decisions on that.
DC marvel comicfans I think I have the answer. Peter for whatever reason turns into a jerk. It wasn’t that way when Todd mcfarline was drawing Spidey but in the 90s everything went down the toilet. It reminds me of when Dick Grayson’s in a relationship with starfire he’s a jerk there to. As for one more day well I was fine with this Peter and MJ not being married anymore in-fact that marriage was going down the toilet anyway. The execution just failed in one more day. It did lead to my favorite era In the Spider-Man comics marvel simply should’ve ended Peter and MJs marriage differently.
I would wager.......kids read comics. While Spidey had gotten older, kids still related to him, and him being a father, would take him to a whole other level of being an adult, like their own parents.
Lol there is no logic.
@@jakeproven256 Peter was being a jerk back then because his long lost parents who had been dead for 20 years had randomly returned. He didn't trust them at first but over a few dozen issues, they built a long lost bond and he finally felt like he had his parents back. Eventually, he was finally able to trust them enough to tell them that he was Spider-Man. Right after he did that though, his "parents" betray him, when its revealed that they are actually life model decoy robots created by the Chameleon sent to Peter to get info on Spider-Man, because Peter is publicly known to have connection with Spider-Man due to taking pictures of him. Peter watches as they are destroyed in front of his eyes. However, it gets worse the next issue. The Chameleon was actually a pawn and the guy behind him used Peter's public connection to Spider-Man as his photographer was an excuse. The real mastermind behind this was Harry Osborn, who was the Green Goblin at the time, and this was all a plan set in motion before his death in Spectacular #200. Harry had the Chameleon send Peter's parents back and take them away to get revenge on Peter for how he made Harry felt when Peter "killed" Norman (which he didn't, Norman died of his own actions). So now not only has Peter lost his parents, who he finally got to spend time with after them missing his entire life, but his former best friend turned worst enemy was behind it all. Also, this happened shortly after Harry Osborn himself died. Aunt May has a stroke and is put in the hospital, and he goes home to find MJ when he feels she's the only one that can help him, but she's gone and left Peter a note saying that she was visiting her Pittsburgh to confront her past. All of this added up causes Peter's to have a full mental breakdown. This whole thing was actually written right before the Clone Saga, and the plan was to have Peter be in a broken state during that time, and that after meeting Ben Reilly, Ben would be the only person that could understand what was going on with him, and would help Peter get back to normal so he could have his happy ending, while Ben Reilly becomes Spider-Man.
Also, on your second half of your comment, I have seen your comments like this elsewhere, which makes me wonder wether you read the JMS run.
What I really don’t understand is that Peter can’t get married and have kids, but characters the same age like Harry Osborn, Betty Brant, and Liz Allen can? How does not letting Peter enter the next stage of his life “keep him young” when everyone around him is doing it?
"So despite The Clone Saga being an incredibly 90s comic book event..."
Me: Dude, we were just as confused and "What The Hell" with it back then. None of us were fans of the convoluted storyline.
Hello, I'm a big fan of Ben Reilly and the clone saga in general, so I'm really glad you ended this on a positive and upbeat note. I really appreciate that. The story is not for everyone but I think it does have it's fun moments. Scarlet Spider can be remembered as a great hero and desreves to acknowledged as part of the mythos too. I'm sorry for Dan Jurgens though but I'm glad he made his contribution to get this whole thing kicked off! In addition Sensational Spider-man # 0 is one of my favorite comics ever. Plus another real treat was that there were no advertisements in the whole issue! Once again, thanks for a great review!
I've always heard about The Clone Saga and I've seen the Ben Reilly suit a lot. I didn't know it wasn't well received. Another great and interesting video!
Thank you! Yeah I love Reilly's Spider-Man suit, but that's pretty much the only great thing to come out of this story.
@@OwenLikesComics I wonder if they didn't have Peter be a clone it would have turned out better. It seems like that was the point where readers grew less interested and the story became more convoluted.
I really like Ben's costume. Also the animated Spider-Man show used him pretty well.
I remember my local CVS use to carry comic books from 94-96 and I read this entire saga thanks to that store for carrying marvel and DC comics in that era
Great video, I had known that the Clone Saga was a confusing mess, but I had no idea that it was THIS confusing and convoluted!
Just when you think it's wrapping up... BOOM, six more months, baby!
Justin Riley and the funny thing is that Owen didn’t even scratch the surface of the drama and meddling that was involved in the storyline. Comics Tropes also did a video on the clone saga, going into more detail, and just trying to keep all the twists straight will make your head explode!
@@Dhampir101980 I haven't seen their video but I can imagine. There's so much drama to this story that if I attempted to mention and explain every single issue that went on behind-the-scenes, I'd be talking for hours.
There's also a good blog which goes thru the saga issue by issue, as well as explain the editorial background machinations of the saga. I started reading it, did that for a week in my free time and at some point just quit bc there's so much to this never-ending story! The editorial decisions were just hilarious. I mean. Spyder-cyde for God's sake 🤷🏻♂️
Constantin Saramo the life and time of Ben Reilly Blog was great. But’ it’s sooo much to read lol
The best thing that came out of this is Ben Riley Scarlet Spider. My second fav spidey after 2099.
I think the comic industries attachment to continuities is a major problem. I think if each new writer wasn’t tied to what came before they would be free to write great stories.
Before even getting into the video I can tell you the exact problem of the OG Clone Saga: NO ONE WANTS TO HAVE THEIR HERO REPLACED, NOT EVEN BY THE SUPPOSED ORIGINAL WHEN THE HERO IS A CLONE.
People didn't want Peter Parker's own CLONE to take his place back then because that wasn't their Spider-Man, it wasn't Spider-Man at all to them. But Marvel pushed it and it got out of hand. No one wants their heroes to get sidelined by someone else, even if that someone else is technically their hero.
Even though the Clone Sage is consider the WORST.
What is consider the BEST Spider-Man story arc.
Pretty much everything done in the Bronze Age can be considered "the best of Spider-man"
My favorite era is the brand new Day era.
@@jakeproven256 Lol that's my least favorite, but to each their own.
There are so many its hard to choose. My personal favorite is The Night Gwen Stacy Died/The Goblin's Last Stand, but you also have the Death of Harry Osborn, Maximum Carnage, The Death of Jean DeWolffe, Kraven's Last Hunt, The Hobgoblin Saga, Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut, The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man, Every time Venom appears between 1988 and 1993, especially the first time, Go Down Swinging, Spider-Island, If This Be My Destiny!, Spider-Man No More!, Drug Issues, The Goblin Unmasked (where Peter and Norman find out each others identities), And Death Shall Come!, Coming Home, The Conversation, 9/11 Tribute, Doomed Affairs, Happy Birthday, The Book of Ezekiel, New Avengers, the War at Home, Back in Black, almost every one-shot issue by JMS, the current Kindred arc being written right now. So 80's was the best era easily, which ended with early nineties. After One More Day, things went stale for a while, with only Spider-Island and Go Down Swinging being great, and most stories being bland, until Nick Spencer took over years ago, and started fixing things.
I love how Spider-Man life story covers this in like 1/20th of the time. Like one issue.
Despite the Madness of the clone saga, I still LOVE ❤ Ben Reily and Kaine! Spidercide was a great touch too!
Hey, no matter how much of a mess the Clone Saga was, I still love all the Ben Reilly costumes so we can all be grateful for their addition
Jackal: How many Spider-Man clones you want?
Green Goblin: YES!
Honestly, I thought the Clone saga started out okay. It wasn't the greatest plot, but it wasn't the worst either. However, by extending it the way that they did, it made it too convoluted to be anything more than a dumpster fire. They simply couldn't be happy with a simply little story. They had to bloat the whole thing.
I mean, while I didn't live through the Clone Saga, I often hear from a lot of folks, such as fans from conventions here in my hometown, Scott from NerdSync, Chris for Comic Tropes, is that greed, and ego drove the story into a mess, with no end in sight. For me? I just chalk it up to the 90s going full 90s, if that makes sense.
Sure just blame entire era for one bad story.
@@INFERNO95 First of all the Clone Saga is not "one story." Second of all, Clone Saga is a good example of general 90's problems. Are you forgetting Onslaught and Heroes Reborn? Or the constant new trend of reviving characters from the dead? Or how badly Marvel treated their artists? 90's was bad for more than just Clone Saga.
This was what pushed me away from comics. The moment I saw that cover with Peter and Ben face to face I was done. The idea that Peter was the clone was very upsetting to me as a kid.
As a fan of MST3K, I love the Clone Saga. I love its potential, the pitfalls and mistakes it made, the things it did right, the repercussions both immediately after and years on down leading up to the first relaunch, and every single thing associated with it. I’ve read the online history The Life of Reilly numerous times, finding the behind the scenes drama as fascinating as the drama in the books. And while I understand Marvel distancing itself from the Clone Saga for a time, I’m also happy it finally came back around (I mean, once One More Day took the crown as the worst Spidey story of all time, it deserved a second chance to make a first impression). The authentic earnestness of the Clone Saga and the terrible execution would make this a great series covered by a Mystery Science Theater comic series!
I liked the Clone saga... The Seperation Anxiety arc was great, and I actually liked that Norman was trying to destroy Peter from the inside, and have him question EVERYTHING... Ben's death at the end was actually very sad.
It was enough to kill MJ in front of his eyes. XD
I just came here because Scatlet’s outfit is too cool
Mildly unpopular opinion, but I love the original Scarlet Spider suit.
I remember hating Ralph Macchio for this whole thing but thinking it was the karate kid Macchio. I guess it was his clone all along
Peter Parker: experiences a major life event.
Comic Book editors: We can’t have that.
See Clone Saga, One More Day, and Sins Past. They just don’t learn their lesson. Ever.
Even the current run by Zeb Wells.
MJ: "Let's move in together, Peter."
Also MJ six months later: "I dumped you and I have two kids and a new man. And superpowers."
This was the story that ended my story with reading Spider-Man. In retrospective, I can say it was the "Dynasty" style storyline, but at that point I just had an impression I grew out of the series all-together. Took me years to get back to it.
Excellent work, once again!
I'm not into the actual books like I used to but one of the biggest problems I had with many books is the lack of character progression and the disrespect between authors.
Onslaught.. That was a crazy event
Thanks for making this video Owen when another great analysis on some of Marvel's bad crossover events.
Until One More Day came along and made The Clone Saga look like Days Of Future Past
Uhm, no. They are both on the same level of crap and suck, so just no. DotFP is a classic, and you are talking about two storys who almost destroyed Spidey forever.
Flashkoch yeah I know DoFP was a masterpiece
@@Flashkoch Yes DoFP was amazing. Thats the point of the comment made. Clone Saga may have been a mess but it still gave us Ben Reilly and Kane, and it didn't ruin the character forever, or make Spider-Man comics not worth reading. Maybe part of the reason Clone Sag is also remembered better is because its legacy of ruin didn't last as long, because JMS came on the book 4.5 years later and redefined Spider-Man, and Ultimate Spider-Man also started. With One More Day, we got Brand New Day, and then almost a decade of Slott Garbage.
It wasn't even that it went on so long, in all honesty, it was the fact that it went on so long over so many different titles each month.
To be clear, I LOVE 90s comics.
Liked the Scarlett Spider-Man suit wouldn’t mind seeing him back
More great work Owen, sure appreciate it!
Thank you Christopher, that means a lot!
Amazing video, could you do the Dark Phoenix Saga or Fatial Atractions next?
They're both great ideas, I'm talking X-Men next week but I'll add both to my list!
I read this series as a child and enjoyed them back then
I think the clone saga had alot of good pieces in it, but way too convoluted.
Hey man, just stumbled on your page man, liked and subscribed, looking forward to more!
Thanks, I really appreciate that!
As a kid I loved the clone saga plus I loved the scarlet Spider-Man
It's beyond ironic that the clone saga was meant to rival death of Superman and Batman knightfall when both those stories crushed the clone saga into the ground. DC had the last laugh after all.
Just Came Upon Your Channel and I like it
10:52 Oh god. EVEN BACK IN THE 90's, Writers where thinking of pulling Mephisto into Spider-Man stories as a solve everything retcon?!?!
Id stopped reading, shortly after its conclusion. I strongly recall that call that suit pete wore. Pieces of the black costume with a jean jacket over top...
Id started reading again in 06, and jumped ship to DC. Nowadays, im about 50/50 marvel//DC
I did the same thing,when the clone saga was over I felt that the event was so hyped and I enjoyed most of it but when it was over everything just felt to normal again I guess and my interest was gone at that time I guess I was like now what do they do? But I got back into comics years later and im like you 50/50 Marvel and DC
I was in 4th or 5th grade during it and remember thinking Ben's costume was so cool. Looking back I do still like it but it's definitely a product of the 90's.
Just read the Ultimate clone saga about two weeks ago, and thought it was great. Damn… this is gonna be weird huh.
This was a wonderfully made video
Thank you so much, really glad you liked it!
I remember how it kept me form collecting Spider Man books, back in the day.🕷
Adinocc if I were around in the 90’s I’d quit five pages in!
It was, when you think about it, obviously going to be a controversial story from the start. Of course a lot of people would dislike the idea of the character they had read for 250 issues leaving the series and being replaced by another, even if also Peter. According to DeFalco, issue 400 wasn't supposed to be the end, just the end of the first act, he thought that Peter should always eventually return to being Spider-Man (with the clone maybe getting a spin-off).
the more recent spider-man story "the clone conspiracy" is a much better clone saga than the one in the 90s: it's much more simple, it's emotional and better of all is short! But to be onest, they probably should have left it with the original 70s saga...
Two decades later, "Orphan Black" is on television, and it's just fine.
Canadian science fiction gets it right in fifty episodes, but a comic book couldn't get it right in over a year.
This story did give us the Scarlet Spider suit, so... that's a plus.
The Scarlet-Spider and Ben Reilly Spider-Man suits are two of my favorites!
This storyline lasted so long I don't know if it's the reason I stopped buying Comics but when it started I was Hardcore Spider-Man comic book reader and by the time it ended I had long left the scene I did like the new costume sell Scarlet Spider still looks badass in my opinion
Edit: never could find a toy of it though 😞
Hey Owen maybe this is not the most on-topic comment but have you ever thought about redoing your video on How Ultimate Reed Richards became Maker??? I love that video but I personally think it suffers from not delving deeper into the FF overall narrative context and also, I don't think it would hurt it to have a better quality of audio, and a fresh perspective. Cheers!
It's definitely something I'm planning on doing soon, don't worry!