Breaking the unspoken rules of songwriting ('Phantoms' by Meshuggah)
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2024
- Time Consuming Ep #64 and week 4 of 'MAYshuggah' is a deep dive into some thoughts about songwriting, and about how 'Phantoms' by Meshuggah is breaking some norms that are rarely broken.
'Phantoms' original song:
• Phantoms
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Intro by Sharon Renold (@sharonrenold on Instagram) and myself
Intro music by Shwesmo (@shwesmo on Instagram)
#musicanalysis #songwriting #meshuggah
0:00 intro
1:04 songwriting and rules
7:23 Meshuggah and NO RULES
8:26 Phantoms riff
16:39 ROCK N ROLL
19:43 recap
Yogev: "if you are a nerd. But like a... nerd-nerd"
His entire following: "...you have our undivided attention"
That "warning" totally sold me on sticking all the way through it.
No hyperbole there.
I never used to like Meshuggah, I just didn’t “get it”. Then I was watching an interview with Thomas Haake and he made a throwaway comment about every instrument being a rhythm instrument, including the vocals. It sounded interesting so I listened again with that mind-frame and it clicked. My brain exploded and I’ve never looked back.
He said his band "is a percussive unit" & I believe his short description of his band could help newcomers quickly easily *get* Meshuggah.
Doesn't mean they'll like or love this band, but at least they'll *get* it.
I took a shitload of psychedelics in high school and got stuck listening to Catch 33, front to back. The next day I went out and spent almost $80 buying every Meshuggah CD I could find at best buy. It truly is one of the most tangible life transformations (not just musical) I had ever experienced. This band is by far my favorite, among allot of different stuff. Ever since I “got it,” I can look back and see a huge change in every facet of my life. It’s just very personal, it’s dark music but not brutal. “It’s the darkness of the universe.”
@@NACHOTHEIST "Dark music" which enlightened your life. Glad to join you !
It's actually Tomas. I legit didn't know this until watching an interview the other day. I guess brains are so used to the name Thomas we all just filled in the H in Tomas
Similar thing happened to me though on acid. I never liked messhugah, then while tripping on acid, one of the songs messhugah popped up and I realised that every instrument is actually a rhythm instrument...and from then onwards my journey into polymeters started
Meshuggah: Write an play a 192 beats / 12 bars main section with absurd subdivisions
Yogev: I'm the scatman
asiduflakjsiuhefuahfsdvkjhwoe8iuaoihfkzsjhiouwijtwsekfjSvzdkfgadfgaklsgfa.
That's an accurate transcription on that intro.
When you said "12 bars" my thought was... "Oh thats just how Meshuggah plays the blues"
To be fair Meshuggah kind of gave us a taste of it. The Demon's Name Is Surveillance is a 12 bar blues if you squint hard enough.
HAHAHAHA
@@yr92_ As funny as this is, there's a lot of truth in it. 😂
I'm late to the conversation, but I thought the same thing!
I'm pretty convinced that playing in a meshuggah cover band as an elder would be a solid way to keep your mind sharp and active.
SIGN ME IN
Who would have thought Meshuggah would still be breaking boundaries in 2022
Really though when you thought everything has been done.
Me
I would have. :) they've just been onto something for decades now it is all quite impressive. Sometimes near unlistenable.
Tomas Haake in 2025: Plays 4 kick drums at once
@@symptomofsouls Tomas Haake in 2030: Actually kicks the kick drums.
When you’re listening to a Meshuggah track and the rhythms finally click
*bliss*
Its not only complicated, it's also catchy, which makes the Song actually great.
Hell yeah you can
As someone who's self taught and struggles to read music, this riff-centric counting is how I count most naturally. Really cool to see your thoughts on this.
Me too - I realised today that this was my major difficulty with the previous videos . This seems much more on point for me, personally. It's great.
30+ years of untrained metal guitar here and this is how I hear nearly all of music. I always felt like I live in a different world than "real" musicians.
Absolutely. Meshuggah is no respecter of traditional notation...it's about numbers, sure, but probably more about patterns, shapes, schemes, and (discordant) systems. And they still do that in a more..."integrated", coherent, artistic way than all the "djent" bands they so heavily influenced.
They really werent kidding when they said this was their most technical album yet, these guys are madness incarnated
"Which, - if any - traditional, time-honored, songwriting 'rules' do you guys utilize when crafting a song."
Meshuggah: "No."
"We use 16th notes sometimes"
@@darkySp 😂🤣🤣
"We have guitar."
"We strum the things..."
"It's easier if you just see us as a calculator/distortion pedal hybrid"
"We punch the numbers in and it works"
You know, after the first few listens of Immutable I started thinking "Uh oh...Meshuggah is finally starting to sound a little uninspired to me." It just felt a bit like they were starting to run out of ideas and reinvent the wheel.
It wasn't until watching these latest MayShuggah videos that I remembered why Meshuggah is so important and why I started listening to them in the first place. It requires attention and some active listening to really grasp what makes them so cool and fun and ground-breaking. Now I always hear something different and can truly appreciate the new album. Thank you, Yogev (and thank you, Meshuggah!)
You're welcome !!!
Yeah , it also took me a while to understand the album. This channel helped me a lot
It still is a little uninspired though. A few rhythm quirks here and there doesn't mean the album has a totally different sound than their previous album. Especially since they talked about it having different sonic albums leading up to the release (there are some nice little breaks here and there but it's not a totally different sound). It's still a good album and I still listen to it.
@@Jazzguitar00yeap def would agree.. its still an awesome album but not much of it is ‘something new’, the only thing possibly making them unique is input from the bass player which i feel are the stand out tracks here n the violent sleep album, where as Marten just straight out writes bangers
@@Jazzguitar009 months late, but I’ll say that with each album they are the same but also very different. You can feel the differences between Immutable and TVSOR. Immutable is easily their most dynamic effort since Destroy Erase Improve and there is a focus on melody. It’s also their most thrash oriented album since Chaosphere. Lots of 7 string riffs. It also seems to be mostly focused on songwriting/atmosphere vs complexity. TVSOR’s focus was on complex riffs, unexpected song structures, and a raw feel helped obviously by the presence of them tracking drums, bass, a rhythm guitar track and vocals live all at once. It has a very blue almost cold presence. Immutable feels red and very warm. I myself prefer TVSOR, but I don’t think Immutable is uninspired. It just puts its focus into other things that are a more cerebral.
No wonder Tomas recently gave an interview saying this track may never be played live. Goodness gracious. Great point on this challenges the art form it, and we are lucky to be alive to experience this. Cheers
I tried to quad track this just to see how hard it is to play tight. I consider myself a very tight hard working player of 5 years and boy I thought it was gonna be hard but it was HARD HARD.
Pineal Gland Optics also has a similar approach, although less...whatever the fuck this is. Madlads !
Amazing work as usual Yogev !
Dear lord, what a breakdown! This song - the the entire album - is just nuts. I genuinely appreciate your comment at the end: that even if you don't like this type of music, it's great to be able to dig into what they're doing with song building, because it is unlike anything that I have ever seen anyone do.
Thanks Yogev! Brilliantly demystified. Part 2 yes please!
After I, the FINAL boss must surely be Sol Niger Within!
Totally hhahahah
@@YogevGabay Also, you'll have a slight head start on I because Fredrik put his chart of the opening section on Instagram a while back, but good luck with the rest ;)
Haven't finished the video quite yet but a couple of things I want to get down here before I forget...
The way you describe the rotating notes that don't match up with the structure of the riff is precisely why the solo section of Pineal Gland Optics used to be my favourite Meshuggah riff... Until Phantoms did that idea for half a song. Blew me away.
Also interesting to note that, for me, the 4/4 here is really intuitive and it's the ludicrous use of seemingly random kick drums that make this song peak Meshuggah for me, exactly the challenging memorisation task that I fell in love with learning my first Meshuggah songs back in 02.
Love it. Back to the video.
Another drummer here- and I agree, the obvious 4/4 groove here is more present than most Meshuggah songs- but the rotation of accenting makes it one of the funkiest grooves I have ever heard. Simultaneously intuitive and super hard to understand.
I wanted to send a comment to @yogev but let's put it as an answer here:
maybe not knowing much about what the riff is helps to feel the 4/4. It reminds me of Bleed at 1'49" («Malfunction…») and the verse of Clockworks where I loose the 4/4 if I follow the riff. Hope my new understanding thanks to this vid will not erase my 4/4 feeling!!!
@@christophegragnic8681 100% on "losing the 4/4 in Clockworks if you pay attention to the riff". When I first heard "Phantoms", the actual "riff" itself, sounds like a "ghost note pattern" -- just riffing AROUND a groove, rather than actually "being a riff" -- that's how my "ears perceived it". But I was able to bob along in 4/4 with zero problems, first time, until the ridiculous ending, lol.
Super interesting discussion!
For me, for some reason, this one is harder than others. Maybe being a drummer? maybe i t just hits me differently? so I don't have that problem with clockworks or almost any other song. Which doesn't really SAY anything. It doesn't mean I'm better or worse, just different I guess ?
@@YogevGabay Yeah man, I get a kick reading/listening to people's takes on how they interpret Meshuggah's music. It's wild how many different people have different takes.
For example, it took me a long-ass time to keep track of the 4/4 through the middle bit of clockworks.
Shed, too, springs to mind. I know the 4/4 is there and if I really concentrate I can pick it out, but it's not how I feel the tune at all.
Yogev, my dude - this video is your best work yet. Like, truly mindblowing, next level stuff.
HAZAAAANNNNNNN
This is amazing work, just plain amazing and enormous
I, as a Meshuggah fan really really am grateful for these videos. As I have said in other comment, your work is too much for us simple mortals. THANK YOU
A part 2 with the other riff would be amazing 🖤🤘
What's there to discuss about that second riff? It's just 2 - 5 in 16 bars.
Thank you very much!
@@Cyrax89721 okay genius
PHANTOMS PART 2!!! THAT ENDING RIFF IS THE GROOVIEST RIFF EVER
Phantoms really stood out to me when Immutable first dropped. It still stands out, and watching this makes me glad that it caught my ear early. These guys don't get enough credit for the brilliance that they hide in their songs. Thankfully, Yogev helps make sense of a lot of it. So, thank you, Yogev, and thank you Meshuggah.
Couldn't agree more. These guys are redefining music !
Phantoms is my favorite Meshuggah song. It's so complex, heavy and addicting. When I'm listening to Immutable I tend to replay the song two to three times in a row. The end is haunting and extremely beautiful. Love those crazy Swedes!
The verse riffs in “Dancers” has the same harmonic and rhythmic “misalignment” on guitar. It’s a 10-beat rhythmic pattern but it takes 30 beats to repeat completely. Makes for a fun riff to play, especially when it’s based off the half-whole diminished scale and it bounces around whole-tone intervals a minor 3rd apart from each other.
Due to a reform on 2022 calendar, this month of May will count 53 days with a reminder of13 hours.
Which would allow Yogev to do about 3 other Maysshuggah videos 😄
Thks for your work Mr Gabay, your videos are really both intertaining and inspiring !
Oh no hahahahah I NEED FOODDDDDD
Please do the breakdown too, this video was very helpful to understand the song, but that ending is just epic.
The riff at the end is defo one of my favs on the album!
Duuuuuuude!
Just… duuuuude!
Love your videos and enjoy watching your channel grow.
I remember being blown away by DEI in 1995.
Then Nothing floored me in 2002.
Then Catch 33 became my desert island album.
Then comes fucking Obzen!!!
And now I’m still being blown the fuck away all these years later.
Eternally grateful for these sonic time travellers.
🙏🙏🙏
Ah, now we're going deep! These rhythms go just right over my head but it's so therapeutic to see you dissect and explain them so well.
Your videos are always incredible
I wrote a riff once where the rhythm and notes played diverged and followed their own rules and it was so satisfying. It was more like a logic sequence. I've never been able to do it again but always tried. Then they release this absolute monster of a track
*Quits guitar
Like a metal computer algorithm. This band continues to blow my mind.
I am not a music theory expert & even my lamen ears can hear Meshuggah must be breaking at least 1 rule in this song. What's truly amazing is, I doubt its a conscious effort.
You are going to talk about I/Eye soon??
YOU'RE a MADMAN 😮😱
2:01 "I'm not going to go into the [which supports which] debate.... because I'm a drummer and I know the answer." -- 😂😂😂😂
#being vague on purpose hahaha
@@YogevGabay am drummer and bassist; so we both know the answer lol
@@mishterpreshident hellz yeah !
Phantoms Part II would be amazing.
And now I get why Tomas stated that they will not play it live
we need part 2
It takes a genious to unpack a song like this made by geniouses.
I wasn't sure how i felt about this album until your break downs.
And my God this can't be easy, so I appreciate all the time and energy you put into these.
Yes please on the last riff! Excellent vid as always
Your visual breakdowns of the structures are so good and well thought out! Great job!
Also, can't wait for the Berklee Indian Ensemble album release!
Coming soon!
Saw them live last night. An absolute masterclass of sensory overload and destruction. Ears still ringing watching this.
Seeing them tomorrow night and I can't wait - will be my first Meshuggah gig! It's going to be incredible - I just know it!
@@samuellickiss8463 how did you get on?
Mate, bloody hell, why would we NOT want a Phantoms part 2?! Do it!
I know you apologize a lot for long videos. But this shit is gold. To me the longer the better. I really appreciate that you to this kind of stuff.
Oh man that's great to hear !
Again, a true Meshuggasm :) Admire your artwork and relentlessness, dear sir, as usual!
OMFG! The time you have put into this! And the reward it is to watch the synched up playthrough! 🔥
I really appreciate how you changed the perspective to the “riff sight” and it still makes sense! Kudos and cheers from Denmark 🍻🤘🏻
Thanks a lot Mili !!
Wow, that is such a deep dive! I am all in for part 2, the second riff might be their most powerful by now!
I don't really devote time to actively listen to Meshuggah as much as feel them in the back of something else, so songs like this tend to be lost on me. I love these breakdowns for how they provide the perspective needed to correlate the dense information of the song and enjoy the rhythmic exercise it poses.
that was mind blowing. thank you. so excited about “i” being the next one on your radar, i’ve been listening to it on repeat in a last couple of weeks.
I hyperfocus for his explaination, all 17 minutes of it. Every time I follow it perfectly, and every time it breaks down as soon as I try to apply it to my listening. This song is insane, this band is other-worldly
That’s because it’s in 4/4. There’s a swing feel to parts of it because a lot of notes a played on the “and”. But it is in fact in 4/4 just like all other meshuggah songs.
@@eggheadjibar3264 this isen't really true and is super dependant on how you want to think about it. most meshuggah songs have a back beat in 4/4 played by half of Tomas Haake and sometimes one of the other instruments will be playing in 4/4 too but nearly every guitar part the band has ever written has been in a different meter this is how polyrhythm and polymeter work. lets say they have a verse that is 8 bars long they wright a riff they like in some crazy meter that fits into it 6 and a third times and then put a fat back beat in 4/4 under it to make the mosh happen and at the end of 8 bars of the back beat the stop the riff where ever it is and move to the next section. that's why the guitar riffs phase with the backbeat in like all there music, so its not that the songs are / aren't in 4/4, parts of the music are while other parts that are not are layered on top to make that meshuggah sound happen . the use of this technique in my opinion is why meshuggah have become so popular, if the song couldn't be headbanged too and was all out there rhythmic ideas with no grounding for people to feel as familiar it would have been practically impossible for them to achieve there well deserved success .
Its June, so we all need MeJUNEgah now.
Incredible, incredible work.
Yogev!
How long did it take for you to do this video? This is a masterpiece.
Took a good 40 - 50 hours including EVERYTHING. Figuring it out, thinking how to present it, deleting script #1, writing script #2, filming everything and editing. This one took a LOOOOOOONG time
@@YogevGabay It was worth every second!
Phantoms mini part 2 please! Great breakdown as always! This song trips me up big time
You got it!
Just saw the Indian ensemble "5 piece band" video... Yogev, you're awesome !!
Blow my mind again with part 2 Yogev ! Can't get enough of this.
I love Mind-blowing. 🤯 Thanks 💪
Stefan from 🇦🇹
And yes, I want a Phantoms Part II. 👏👏👏
The analysis is incredible
Definitely need the second riff video
Amazing analysis, as always. Phantoms might be my favorite track, but the whole album is just amazing.
One of the best Meshuggah songs! Great explanation of a very challenging concept
Brilliant video man, can't wait for the I stream!
PART 2 CONFIRMED LET'S GOOOO
This is great. I spent hours myself trying to analyze this tune. I looked at it from a different POV, so I found my own patterns that were also quite complicated. Meshuggah is coming to my area in September and I'll be there. I'm just going to bet they won't attempt this track live!
Phantoms part 2? Yes. And yes.
Magnificent! You have outdone yourself, sir!
You've put more thought into this one video than I've put into the last 10 years of my life.....
As many have said, thanks for making this album more interesting by breaking it down for us!
Maybe it's just me, but one of the more prominent rhythmic or perhaps melodic ideas is how they accent every third group (at least initially, after a while it changes around a bit) creating yet another layer of polyrhythm-ish.
They have so many layers going on, I keep finding more and more things
Great video, you did an amazing work. Please analyze the 2nd part of the song too, it gives me a lot of "Nothing" era vibes
I needed to figure out the loops happening in phantoms so I came here.
Really Great explanation....you are amazing 🤘🏻 🤘🏻 🤘🏻
My favorite, can't wait!
Part 2 men, hell yeah !!!!
Great, Yogev! Its such a privilege to see you exploring music. Thanks God, there is Meshugga to drive us out of our musical comfortzone.
Thanks a ton !
I learn so much from your videos, thank you!! Notice how unlike 99% of Meshuggah songs the kick does not follow the guitar pattern, which in this particular case adds even more to the disorienting nature of the song.
Good point!
Yes, please do the breakdown of the other riff in this song when you get the chance!!
Mårten is a genius, man. The true unsung hero of Meshuggah. I watched an interview with Tomas and he acknowledged that he knows people assume that him and Fredrick either write an equal amount of songs or Fred writes slightly more because he’s the lead player, but actually Mårten wrote 95% of Koloss, 100% of TVSOR, and 100% of the riffs on Immutable. Fredrick came in to record the second guitar parts and a couple solos but he has had other projects that have taken a lot of his time which is also why he took a hiatus from touring with the band. Tomas also said that Mårten has actually written the majority of the songs after Chaosphere. Not to downplay Fredrick of course and also some of the songs were written by Dick and Tomas together without Mårten or Fredrick. But wow, it’s almost criminal how little recognition Mårten has gotten for his contributions to all of metal. (He also writes some of the lyrics)
when I am listing to this song I naturally follow the melodic content of the riff, and the rhythmic content feels all messed up. It makes so much sense when looking at it from a drummers perspective.
This guy explain better than any certified music teachers available.
he's a Berkley student
Instant patreon. Thank you so much for these videos!
OHHH THANKS !!
Brilliant work there yogev!
Bravo! What an effort this must have been. Definitely a part 2 please, the second half of this song is absolutely mesmerising.
i was actually waiting for the breakdown deep dive, amazing video
This is my fav riff from the album
The Berklee Indian Ensemble reminds me of the Shwesmo (and you!) song Digital Elephants! That 'dut' - ting is awesome! Most definitely going to check out the album when it releases!
Also, amazing breakdown! This is a beast of a video!!
Another well edited and very well explained video, thank you so much dude that looked like a hell of a job.
I finally learned the guitar part to Do Not Look Down thanks to your videos, and I'm not even mad that a drummer showed me how to play it 😎
hahahahah amazing !
I absolutely love your work, dude. Honestly, this video made me realize that the first half of Phantoms is even crazier than the last half and I appreciate it even more now. My favorite song from Immutable just got even better and I have you to thank for that 🙏 So glad I stumbled upon your channel earlier this year.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Super happy to read this comment man !
Man, what a work... Congrats, and thank you so much ! Greetings from France !
great vid, and don't worry about talking about anything musical, I at least found the first part as interesting as the rest!
So thankful that you're out here making these vids man! Killer work as always!
Probably the best intro ever. I may (or may not) "borrow" from it for my Master's research paper. Thanks anyway.
By all means, do!
Part 2 please
Amazing work dude !!
Amazing work
fantastic stuff, as usual.
i love how you do these.
Dude, thank you!
Thank you so much, I loved it
Wow, this is incredible! Wonderful job explaining the riff and visualizing it!
awesome work dude, like always
Thanks for a great video!! 🤘🏼🤘🏼🤘🏼
Yo, this video is great. I learned a lot! Thanks for making it
Awesome analysis.