4 to 8 stroke engine: what if you add 4 wasted strokes to engine cycle?
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
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You might remember how we tried this as a joke a couple of years again, and now we're revisiting the idea - coming at it from a different angle.
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These guys are my heroes, they just come up with the craziest contraptions and just send it. No over thinking, just make it happen.
Damn straight.
Yep, just when you think "what else could they do to a car?" They come up with another crazy idea!
👍🏻🔧
Russians? Heroes?
@@Njazmo dude they are people, they have no connection to what their government does.
FYI the US is not innocent in global conflict. By your response I assume you are from the US.
I love this channel. They work so hard at constantly pushing out new videos and new ideas. They don't care about what's going on with their country. And they don't talk about it. They just keep pushing out great content. Loyal to their channel and fans. No matter where in the world we live
I wonder if some of their crew have been conscripted, but these are not the people causing the problems going on. They actually show that mechanically minded people all enjoy these things no matter where they're from.
@@VeraTR909 is it nato parrot talking now? Lets involve you in there, 💣🎇🤣
@@peggenlejoncar9529 come on guys no fighting. Is already too much of that. Let's just all get along!
@@VeraTR909 I hope not brother.
@@peggenlejoncar9529 I wrote you a poem:
Delayed speed of camshaft means longer duration on all stages. Incredibly long periods of time leaving exhaust and intake valves closed leads to a hard crank condition among other related issues.
Or, alternatively, the valves will be open and closed at the wrong time, that way not allowing the engine to breathe properly.
Beat me to it. Dwell angle and timing will be way off.
Exactly the valves are working too slowly in order for it to work with their setup the cams would need to have some extremely steep lobes
@@MikeHoncho0811. If the distributor is camshaft driven…..oh, I can’t be bothered to figure out how that would even work!
Ya I came to say the same thing, too much duration.
You need to modify the cam shaft as well. When there are extra strokes the valves will be half open, half closed, and it will take fuel and air in, but will actually expell the fuel when there is a wasted stroke between intake and compression stroke, the valves are opened and will expell fuel and air from the intake. The camshaft needs the lobes moddified so the valves are closed during intake and compression strokes ,and are opened when exhaust stroke is in action. It can be done but camshaft needs a lot of work even if it even can be done. This will make engine have les horspower and will waste a lot of fuel. On paper it can be done but in real life it will be realy hard.
All that wasted fuel is just going to wash the cylinders and end up in the oil pan diluting the oil.
Yeah, it's a lot of wasted fuel....
Won't waste any fuel. Intakes and exhausts will be closed during the wasted strokes. It should spin twice as fast and make a slightly lower horsepower. Edit: It's basically just compressing the air, then springing back when the air wants to expand on the wasted strokes, like a diesel trying to engine brake without a Jake brake. Double edit: Actually, it shouldn't be compressing much air since the intake and exhaust will be closed, so either the pressure of vacuum will cause it to slow and lose power or it really won't make much difference in power at all, other than needing to spin at twice the RPM to make it as the original configuration. I'd love to see them actually try this.
Ultimately this setup is only going to hinder an engine with no benefits gained.
@joshuagibson2520 no it will be pushed back out the still open inlet valve when the piston goes back up 😅
If they reduce speed of camshaft twice that mean:on intake stroke valve stay open when piston go down and up, for compresion stroke. That explain why carburator leak fuel on air filter side, piston push back air fuel mixture. On next crankshaft rotation, piston go down and up but all valve is closes so ignition mixture is weak because in previus crankshaft rotation piston push out thrue carburatior most of mixture, that explain poor performane and hard to start engine.
I think they need to change camshaft to short time for valve open pozition.
I love this channel. These people are so original and unpretentious, they stick to the true identity of their channel.
Garage 54 is by far the most underrated channel on UA-cam! These guys are absolutely amazing. Thank you for the awesome content ❤
These guys are making a mockery out of most established engineering thought and trends. Incredible working welded crankshafts, now this. I personally was expecting a carburetor to go into orbit and nothing else.
That's why it's fun!
Make a 3 cylinder engine that is 2 stroke diesel on the front cylinder and 4 stroke gasoline on the middle back two.
Using 3 out of 4 cylinders on your Lada engine the crankshaft will already be right. You just need a cam shaft with extra lobes for the 2 stroke cylinder, and an exhaust that works. A flat-plane 3 cylinder effectively firing like a 4 cylinder. Firing order 1-3-1-2.
Make that work and then build an in-line 6 engine with the front and rear cylinders 2 stroke. A cross-plane in-line 6 cylinder effectively firing like a 8 cylinder. Firing order 1-5-6-2-1-4-6-3.
Great video! You´ll need to re-shape the cam lobes as well. Otherwise, the intake valve will not yet be fully open when the intake stroke ends, but will be fully open at some point during the upwards 'waste' stroke after it. Similarly, the exhaust valve will be fully open during the downwards 'waste' stroke after the upwards exhaust stroke. The engine might run, as you demonstrated, but with great loss of power and wasted fuel too.
0:16 As an engine machinist, I can tell you that the engine will be less happy. Engines are happy when the temperatures are constant, meaning the piston-to-wall gap is consistent. Having the piston heat and cool continuously will greatly increase the thermal stress it is subjected to, thus giving it a shorter life. Also, the cam lobes need half the separation of the original. Simply spinning the crank twice as fast means the valves are open for multiple entire strokes. Try cutting it up and welding it back together. I mean, you've done it with cranks before lol
This is what I was thinking the entire time I watched it, and I'm astonished that it actually took on under its own power. Had to have just been the magic speed and mixture of air/fuel in the manifolds.
These guys are going to have their minds blown when they discover timing lights.
And WW3
It is quicker overall to just waggle the distributor back and forth for the right sound, but that is only for 'normal' engines
@@NjazmoOk lil Commie..🤣🤣
@feelingold2995 you have it backwards 🤦♂️
lol which media? UA-cam and X are where people talk about WW3.@@manitoba-op4jx
Interestingly, this isn’t a particularly new idea - in the early 1900s, single cylinder 8-stroke engines were produced under the name “Aermotor”. They did it mainly to improve cooling if I remember correctly. Seeing it done with more than one cylinder is pretty neat!
Sounds less efficient than a hit and miss engine in the long run
@@jblob5764to be fair only like 3 people even knew how an engine worked at the time
To get that to work you would need a custom grind cam as valves would be open for two full strokes not one
That's where my head was at. Wouldn't the cam lobes need to be ground to half the original duration? And probably retimed at that?
@@DocSprocket I was looking for comments regarding it being able to work.
I was thinking it would be :
stroke 1 - intake
stroke 2 - push out the gas trough the intake and the valve closes
and from there on there would be no gas to burn in the cylinder and all of the other strokes would be pointless.
@kidkidu2 Hell, I dunno. I think if you fiddled with the cam timing enough, you could sort of achieve a duration average in which it sorta worked, like it did in the video. However... I think they were trying to achieve a full otto cycle (per cylinder) followed by a "dead" cycle. I don't believe that's what happened. It would run like death- exactly like 2 dead holes on a four cylinder. Instead, I think they achieve that average I mentioned, which resulted in no "dead" strokes- just no performance, either.
@@DocSprocket Presuming the cam timing modification, if they'd push the cam timing back 1 stroke, you could have the cycle starting at BDC, and then stroke 1 pushing out the intake, stroke 2 intake and then the valve closing, then stroke 3 compression with a spark, stroke 4 would be a power stroke, 5 and 6 going down and up with the gasses trapped, then 7 opening the exhaust and pushing the gasses out, then sucking them back in at the 8th stroke, and then 1st stroke pushing the exhaust up in the intake and then getting some gas back in and so on. But yeah, it would run like shit if it even worked.
I want to hear the exhaust sound. It should be quite different.
Hmm 1st april coming up!
Though that too.......
Same here. Wonder what April 1st pranks G54 will play on us. :)
An innovative way to ~halve the power of an engine and increase the friction!
Thats amazing it ran even idled! Now of course, if we are to be honest, its probably cutting the already modest power output of that Lada in half. Just like a two stroke makes roughly twice as much power as a four stroke, this would make very little power since the combustion is happening so infrequently and the crank is basically coasting for longer in between explosions. I bet theres a use for it in some industrial setting though, and probably is already. Good job as usual boys!
koenigsegg uses an 8 stroke engine to pressurize an air tank for the freevalve(camless electropneumatic valves) system. It would be cool if you guys could try to make this 8 stroke pressurize a tank for some air bags or a home made freevalve system like the miata guy.
Fantastic you got it to run at all, let alone drive.
Your ideas never cease to astound me, nice work 👍 Had a thought that if you were to incorporate a few of these ideas to one car and do loads of tests on it on a dyno, mpg, 0-60, tweakability etc. Imagine a crossplane 8 stroke with unequal manifolds both sides just sounding proper mind bending but ACTUALLY being...future.
Maybe use water injection on the next power cycle too??
Ive learned that nothing is impossible in Russia
i think you forgot about the compression, the valves are closed by default which would cause restrictions when the "wasted stroke" happens which is likely why the starter was having such a hard time. if you had one of the valves open this problem would be somewhat alleviated, if you use the exhausts you will be sucking pollutants back into the engine further contaminating the oil, if you use the intake then you mess with the vacuum/intake physics. best thing would be a "open air" valve but this would require more engine modifications than a single video would cover. maybe multiple videos but it would require much more than just crank/valve ratios. Using only 4 cyl engine this makes it much more difficult since you are moving 3 pistons with a single piston providing the power so this issue would be much more pronounced vs something like a I8 or I6 engine.
Now make a double action diesel engine ie both top and bottom faces of piston doing power strokes in turn. The crankshaft can be dealt with a double scotch yoke system.
Its Russian - It'll be a double vodka yoke 🤣
As per the timeshaft is rotating 4times less you have to reduce valve opening times on it because it might be open too long on intake and exhaust cycle loosing pressure.
You guy's have the best car idea's on UA-cam.
This is the most fun car channel on UA-cam!
As always, great content. I appreciate the translations. I wonder why all the automakers have not thought of this a century ago.
this a real meta episode, where you fuck it up for the sake of fucking it up, cause everything i've ever seen you guys do, you fuck shit up. keep at it fellas!
i think this engine concept should go into production, i mean id buy it for long roadtrips and mild hauling
4 extra stokes full of non burnt fuel.
24 volts should be ok as long as you only use 24volts for cranking the engine and when it starts up disconnect one of the 12 volt batteries used to make 24 volts I see people do it all the time
You could just halve the ignition timing to do the same thing.
The way I see it, with the standard cam running at 1/2 speed (1/4 of crankshaft RPM) it would be ;
Start @ TDC
1)Piston Down - Intake Valve Open
2)Piston Up - Intake Valve Open
3)Piston Down - Valves Closed
4)Piston Up - Valves Closed
**Spark**
5)Piston Down - Valves Closed
6)Piston Up - Valves Closed
7)Piston Down - Exhaust Valve Open
8)Piston Up - Exhaust Valve Open
I can't see this running unless they skew the cam and ignition as follows;
1)Piston Down - Intake Valve Open (Intake Stroke)
2)Piston Up - Valves Closed (Compression Stroke)
3)Piston Down - Valves Closed (Release of Compression)
4)Piston Up - Valves Closed (Compression)
**Spark**
5)Piston Down - Valves Closed (Power Stroke)
6)Piston Up - Exhaust Valve Open (Exhaust Stroke)
7)Piston Down - Exhaust Valve Open (Pulling in of Exhaust Fumes)
8)Piston Up - Intake Valve Open (Pushing Exhaust Fumes out of Intake)
Stroke #8 explains why the carb was coughing up as it ran.
I say build a lada engine as extreme as possible, huge cam, 4 barrel, crazy intake, high compression pistons, ported head, unless you already did this build..
I'm having a bit of trouble with this one. Slowing the camshaft down to half speed (that was half, right?) is going to seriously mess with valve duration. I mean, yes it ran- but what the heck is going on inside that engine?
I'm honestly fascinated that you got this to run, on a carburetor no less. With a stock spec camshaft, you double the duration specs which means... Well a lot of things.
I doubt it would have real benefit to retrofit something into this, but it is super neat to see that something could, in fact, run this way. And a hell of a conversation topic especially for new mechanics or those in school to learn.
Y’all guys are pretty awesome. I love watching what y’all do
Hello, im new to this channel, saw your videos and i love it, your channel is the best! New Subscriber!
Welcome! You won't be disappointed with these folks! 😎
If you liked Top Gear in the 2010s, Garage 54 is the best car channel of them all. These guys at G54 tinker more than Top Gear ever did, and is my fix for car stuff after the 2002 Top Gear ended in 2015. 11/10 best car channel.
This Team are great innovators and they are FEARLESS !
It needs an extra heavy flywheel
exactly it need 10 lbs + lead on flywheel
do this to roadworthy car, add turbo and go somewhere to test eficiency and power and fuel consumption.
The issue is, all 4 'strokes' of the engine, in comp comb and ex all have a down and up of the piston, which completely undoes all of the stuff that stroke does
yep was hoping someone had picked up on that. With the cam timing advanced, the intake may open early, but close early, on the down stroke. Same and opposite for the exhaust. Surprised it ran!
All it needed was a bigger crankshaft sprocket.
do more experimenting and converting engine like this! i like this content 👍👍
Would have been interesting if it was possible to somehow measure difference in fuel economy.
@Garage54 - How about a 4 cylinder 'Parallel twin'? ie Mod the crank, cam & timing so that cylinders 1 & 4 fire THEN cylinders 2 & 3 fire. HOW would that feel in driveability/traction/torque? 🤔😏👍
😎🇬🇧
That's the concrete roof lada! 😂
These dudes are awesome!! Been a fan for a while now and they never cease to amaze me!!
This should sound awesome! Hell YEAH!!
These guys are great! They have done some crazy stuff and actually made it work. Their motor made of PVC that actually worked fair with 2 cylinders might fly if they used 8 cylinders.
Always enjoy what they come up with.
Wait, so now that there's a wasted stroke- feed the exhaust gases to it! Like a very advanced EGR
I suggested an 8 stroke cycle in a Senior project in 1971. The idea was based on the Eaton/GM 8/6/4 system idea. Rather than shut down a cylinder bank or a set of cylinders until extra power was needed each cylinder was left fallow for 4 cycles (2 revs) before another power cycle begins. This would have an engine from say an 8 cylinder engine to a 4 cylinder. This can now be done with electronics controlling spark and fuel, even valves if necessary. This keeps the cylinders warm for better efficiency. That being better wear, emissions and reduced friction on unpowered cycles. I think this would give around 30% improvement in efficiency. I outlined this in a paper at my university in Valparaiso Indiana. Unfortunately technical and time deficiencies precluded physical modeling. Check with university for any patent issues. Cheers.
I figured it would have ZERO torque but you guys proved me wrong . lol Great job guys . :)
I'm wondering if the original cam timing had a certain degree of advance, like 4 degrees, if it needed advanced to 8 degrees. Also with the ignition timing, if it also needed to be doubled. Like, instead of 5 degrees BTDC, if it needs advanced to 10 degrees BTDC.
half the camshaft speed doubles the duration , you need narrower camlobes too
Problem is now every stroke lasts twice as long, meaning during an intake stroke the piston goes down and then back up right? So it pushes the air back out
Wish we could hear the original audio better when there's no talking
Well, these vids are recorded long time ago, and dubbed by some dude.
@@manitoba-op4jxhuh? no need to be a dick they’re just saying the original videos are available
@@jetpackjbd How am I supposed to find the original video when it's not linked in the description?
@@M4RC90 It’s a pain, I wish they would link the originals, but you can just type the title into Google translate to Russian. For this I just translated “8 Stroke Garage 54”
@@M4RC90 Гараж 54
Try a 16 stroke engine next!
Trying to figure this one out hurts my brain ! Good job guys !
7:40 Engineering Explained parody ;)
I believe it needs a special camshaft.
Do they have a custom cam shaft on this because simply halving the speed of the camshaft will not do what they want.
Normally you have INTAKE valve open, then both valves closed for compression and ignition expansion, then EXHAUST valve open for the final stroke.
Even if timed correctly at the beginning, a half speed camshaft will have the intake valve open on both drawing fuel in and the compression, trying to send fuel air mixture back where it came from (hence the carburettor spewing fuel), then you will have two complete crank shaft revolutions with both valves closed, and then the exhaust valve will be open to draw exhaust into the cylinder and blow it straight out again. That's if you avoid damaging the valves if they are open with the cylinder at top dead centre.
i love the art on your walls
It would work if your cam lobes had half the duration
i would love to here the exhaust sounds
You guys are always doing something interesting! Thanks for the good laughs!!
I tell you what Vlad, it's got Sooooooooooooo much torque at the wheels its off the charts. I could see it in the increase/decrease timings of the wheel spin.
Man these guys are amazing mechanics and engineers
Ultimate challenge unlocked... A clear see through 8 stroke resin Engine. 🎉
“We need a 42 tooth sprocket, not a 44.” Proceeds to file two teeth off the sprocket.
One day they are going to create something that changes the whole automotive industry
Lean carb on 4 stroke would be rich on a 8 stroke, didn't see them touch it. Get that air/fuel ratio it should fire on it's own.
If you use something like Fiat’s Multiair for the valve train and program it right it might work ..
I am surprised this worked! Well done everyone.
It's alive!
The cam duration will be crazy
Ideas that nobody has tried yet. Great channel! 🤘
Since this is carbureted it would end up consuming more fuel, since there is a wasted intake and compression stroke sending unburned fuel out the exhaust.
Cool that you got it to run though! I stink at that level of math.
Yeah, wouldn't it achieve the same result if they just cut the spark on every second firing stroke?
With the cam turning at half the speed, the intake valves are closed on every other intake stroke. Don't know how it's running with a dead intake and compression stroke.
@@dirtysteve7866because Russians.
would it? arent the valves closed during the dummy strokes?
@@manitoba-op4jx When valves are closed piston moving there's almost no pumping losses drag. If you don't believe me try it remove a camshaft so all the valves closed the starter spins as if there's no cylinder head fitted.
6 stroke engines injected water into the chamber between each exhaust and air intake stroke. They were the most efficient and powerful engines of WW2 fighter aircraft
I don't recall any WWII fights being six stroke with water injection.
Most aircraft used 4 strokes, either V-12s, inverted V-12S or radials, usually double row. There was one special engine which was the British Napier Sabre which used sleeve valves, but it was still 4 stroke.
What engine are you referring to exactly that had 6 strokes. And from my understanding having 2 strokes out of 6 where water is being injected may only be a wasted of power.
They did use water injection. But it was misted into the intake air. Helped with cooling so you could run leaner and not burn up valves, iirc.
That is just water injection, it does not make it 6 stroke... Some people do it on high performance turbo car engines to get even more power and cool down the engine so they can run even higher turbo boost.
Add wasted spark for the wasted stroke
I had to hit the stop button like on a dirt tic tok. Cause for that to have any effect it have to be 4 carbed amd each stroke be canceled out so if it did run with 4 carbs it have no power. The cam profile have to be ground down to make that run.
I like to see you alls cross plane crank be cammed to run all fire in 2 strokes still four strokes😂 👍
Another awesome experiment, and personally I would have just doubled the teeth on the camshaft gear, but that's just me making it easier. Luckily that's a non interference engine or the pistons would have ate the valves on that first try when the tooth count was off. Gotta love them ladas. Anyway awesome video guys.👍👍
The 8 stroke Aero motor was a small pumping engine but it held the intake valve open while coasting.
Russians and vodka can conquer the world with this engineering! Keep it up G54
You should make a 8-valve per cylinder head. For a world record!
I don't believe they actually did it, it's not possible in the way they did it. Having a camshaftsprocket twice the size means the intake valve is open when the piston goes down and also back up, pushing out all the air and gasoline. Then the wasted stroke, then powerstroke at the end of the wasted stroke. At 12:05 you can see they have fitted a bigger cranksprocket to make the ratio 2:1 again, which is normal for a 4 stroke engine. The 8 stroke engine would've needed a 4:1 gear ratio.
That's how they made it work. I did not notice that.
Better fuel efficiency? Nah that’s dead weight, car will be sluggish, burn more fuel. 😊
A 6-stroke was patented in 1917, and many times since, so no doubt people have tried this before.
Sergei is super smart
Can you post HQ stills of your calculations? I'm an engineering major in a precalc class and I'm extra excited to see the practicality come to life with something I'm close to understanding
Id be interested to see the garage54 take on the engine being developed by toyota/mazda.
A 2 stroke with valves, a cam running at x2 speed and a supercharger to push gases through.
Similar to a detroit diesel but with conventional intake via poppet valves.
Love to see a 0. 60 speed test power
But now the valves will be open for both an up and a down stroke. Seems like it won't really work.
It would be interesting for them to grind a camshaft to close the intake much earlier, about 90 deg before BDC to create an Atkinson cycle engine.
😂😂😂😂 when he swerved leaving the boat launch i almost died it workedddddd 😂😂😂😂😂the best
Such a great channel
Ever thought of how many teeth were on the belt to links in the chain
To make this work correctly you are going to have to shorten all the cam lobes by half the duration of an engine spinning at the same RPM as normal. The cam is now spinning 1 time to every 4 engine revolutions. The only true way to know if this is a power adder or not is with something that can test pulling power against a normal one. You are going to have to shorten that cam though so the coughing you were talking about can actually happen. With this, you will get the true definition of expansion, and the second burn is possible with an 8-stroke engine so potentially adding more fuel during the second stroke of compression could be used. As a tuner, I would put a second direct injector for the second stroke before the exhaust ever even opens. The second fuel injector will not need nearly as much fuel to ignite as there is not as much oxygen in the cylinder either and cylinder cooling could be something to worry with as achieving a true burn at 800 degrees or so might be an issue and building heat would take double or triple the time to do. Just food for thought.
I was not expecting that to fire up!
You have to reprogram the computer if it has one, if it doesn't have a computer', then you will have to tighten the jets so less fuel would come out every cycle'.