Attic Find Friday DRAMA! Did Heritage Auctions get this baseball card sale really wrong??
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2023
- Last week's Attic Find Friday featured an active Heritage Auctions bidding war for the 1914 Boston Garters baseball card set. When it ended, there was some drama and many believe that Heritage got it really wrong.
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Did Heritage get this wrong? What should have happened here?
In my opinion, you either sell the set as a whole, OR you set it individually... you don't run similtaneous auctions, playing individual collectors off against a collector who wants the set, and make it a zero-sum game for one cohort. That's NOT how auctions work. They have made it confusing for both the individual card bidders and the set bidders. This is akin to having their cake and eating it too, and was always destined to end in tears for the 'winning' bidder of either conflicting auction/s.
I think the chap that lost out on the set should feel livid, and it seems like he's being nice (for now) towards Heritage in the hope that they will do the right thing for him. If they don't, watch him (rightly) go after them.
@@Johndeplume. well said
Glad you were able to get the link and cover this. Net54 really is different from anywhere else on the internet.
No matter how its spun, heritage messed up bad. Not having the lots connected and locking Powell out from bidding is mind boggling
Thanks for sending it!
Either way, Powell should have had a chance to bid on the complete set in extended time once the individual cards went to extended bidding. He didn’t get that chance and he could have very well intended to throw a higher bid out there if he could have. I’m on team Powell on this one.
Me too
I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a holiday inn Express last night... Essentially when the set auction ended HA enter a contract with Powell because if he didn't pay they could sue him. After that contract they entered 12 additional contracts when they declared the individual bidders winners. I suspect the first contract trumps all other thus Powell should be the winner. Now I suppose HA has a user agreement that says they can do whatever they want, but courts don't often agree with such blanket statements.
I’ve bid and purchased from several
REA auctions and haven’t observed anything like this. They seem to only sell sets or individual cards. I can understand why people are upset. Telling someone they won then rescinding is a real problem. Seems like a good way to lose customers.
This is a black eye for heritage; a greedy response by Heritage.
Just caught this episode. Excellent, M. Sounds like Heritage decided to let bids stay open so the ind. bids COULD surpass the complete set bid. The bigger the top line, the bigger the commish. Heritage should know this fails the sniff test.
But the commission could’ve gone even higher had they let the bidding war continue with the set.
and then it wouldnt have been controversial it would have shown heritage definitvely screwed that bidder@@JunkWaxHero
My guess is one of the owners or principles wanted the shoeless Joe or cobb...they reopened the bidding and would have had to proactively go into their software to do this....literally no way this happens as an accident. They knew who was bidding on the complete set, knew from his history with them that he wouldn't be out bid in a fair auction....and so they intentionally screwed him knowing it wouldn't affect their business at all. Do a little digging into ivy & Halperin in their coin grading days, stamp days and all those legal "issues" from 80s up to their current open lawsuits for fraud and manipulating their new video game auction business through WATA grading
He will take his cash to REA and other auctions in the future. When you spend big money, reps from these auction houses work closely with these types of buyers. Interesting how this went down.
Thoroughly, covered this one Mike, nothing to add except I’m glad you reached out to Miller- he’d be an interesting guest not only about this subject but also his perspective as a high end investor/ collector. I remember getting angry when I received a $6 Star Trek pack because it came in rougher condition than what the listing presented. Hearing about these amounts of monies really puts things in perspective👍❤️
Ha yes! Thanks Mr. Segedi
I'm FUMING for the Powell character. What an utter mess (which I've given my thoughts on to your pinned post,... albeit before I saw the entire video).
Perhaps Heritage (and other auctions houses) should stick to traditional auctions, and make sure they get those right, before they venture into complicated auctions that neither they, nor their software, seem capable of running!
In my opinion, it shouldn't matter if it was a $6 auction, or a $600,000+ auction... the winning bidder was wronged, and if I feel I'm wronged, I'd go after both just as vigorously, if I felt the auction-house weren't going to make it right.
GREAT investigation work by that baseball forum (clearly not full of idiots, like so many forums on the internet are), and GREAT summary by you, Mike. Appreciate you following up on that.
👍
Thanks John!
Let me throw my two shekels into the ring here. So this collector, Powell, was incredibly calm and professional throughout the entire debate or posting and if he's a lawyer, he's more than likely aware that any bad behavior could blow back on him had he chose to go forward with a suit. I think a suit would be the option of last resort if Heritage and Powell couldn't hash out their differences professionally. Ultimately, I think Heritage ends up being the big loser here - and they owe the consignor an apology as well as Powell.
To answer your question before watching the video.. yes Heritage crapped the bed on this. These type of auctions which auction complete set vs it’s parts are not uncommon. Easily done … but cannot be done items close log by lot. Usually the price of individual lots our price the total set…. But in this auction the total set bidder had no chance. Heritage completely botched this and there can be no argument against that fact. These types auctions are seen a few times per year and normally go smoothly as it’s clear the price of individual lots and the set as a whole art any specific time
Thanks for your perspective, Dave!
Even further than they, they intentionally reopened the bidding on the single lots. It doesn't happen any other way, as you said ring bidding is a standard bid method and heritage has done this loads of times seamlessly across auction categories. Almost certainly this had to be done intentionally by someone high up with full software access. Not sure why but guessing they weren't expecting to get outed...would be interesting to know what they gave to or did for the rightful winner of the group lot to make him drop it and move on
Heritage dropped the ball on this one. Once the auction ended the winner gets the items. It is rich people's problems though....
I’m not an attorney, nor am I a player in such bids, but seems like there should have been rules of the auction before the auction began. Not sure the best way to bid these cards. Perhaps end the individual cards first and then complete the set bids afterwards.
It seems that auctioning off the same item in 2 different lots is asking for trouble. The only way to do it properly would be to have very specific rules as to which auction takes priority (individual vs set). I have seen this type of arrangement in an in-person auction with parcels of real estate. The individual lots were auctioned first, and then the aggregate was auctioned starting at the total of the individual lots. I assume that there were insufficient rules set up at Heritage to handle the inherent conflict from this type of arrangement. The individual bidders would have had the same complaint if it had gone the other way.
It would be interesting to know whether Heritage would have allowed a maximum bid for the lot where if Powell had bid $800,000, for example, he still could have won over the individual lots. At the very least, there should have been a disclaimer on either the individual cards or on the lot that the high bidder could still lose the lot if the other auction(s) ended with a higher bid.
That was a lot and I should’ve taken notes, but from what I understood is that the individuals ended at a different time than the lots and the people bidding a fortune didn’t know that the two prices would be compared? Seems to me they should’ve put that in a description or something and had them end at the same time. Although if I were bidding anywhere near a fraction of what they were bidding I’d definitely know all about the card listings
Yeah they knew the two prices would be compared, but when one of them gets extended bidding it’s not fair to the other.
@@JunkWaxHero how is extended bidding determined? I’ve only heard of it with PWCC but I’ve never looked into it at all.
@@jordanparks99 I don’t know, but if you’re granting extended bidding to the individual cards, shouldn’t you be granting it for the set too?
@@JunkWaxHero I imagine it’s supposed to but however they have it setup it was probably automatic and with them not being tied together it didn’t trigger. Should’ve had personal attention from someone at the place for a sale that size. Has there been mention as to what people want done? A new auction or what?
@@jordanparks99 sounds like everyone is moving on
Once the complete set is sold, all bidding should have been completed.
That’s quite an issue.. I think there should be two options -
1. Redo the auction
2. Add up tue bids from the individual cards the moment the ‘set’ ended
This could have very well happened if the lots were reversed; they have to end at the same time to be fair.
Exactly
@@JunkWaxHero I wish there was a point of view from the consigner.
Just ran across this so I don't know what resolution, if any, was reached. Anywho, it should have been handled in reverse...end the individual lots, total up the dollars, and make this the opening bid on the lot. Whoever said it was fair to end the lot auction and let the individuals go on I don't understand. Someone said Heritage did this so the individual lots would increase so Heritage would be more profitable. Wouldn't they stand a better chance if, as I mentioned, they did it in reverse? Once the individual items ended, you now have a finite total of what needs to be bid in order to win the lot. Yes or No? Either way, ending one before the other doesn't seem fair.
I am a licensed auctioneer and have been for about 15 years. The way Heritage had this set up was fatality flawed from the very beginning.
In a live auction, it's somewhat common to sell sets of things "provisionally". Say, for example, I have a set of dining room furniture: a table, set of 6 chairs, a buffet, and a hutch. I want to maximize the potential revenue for my consignor so I announce that I am going to sell each piece (the set of 6 chairs being one piece) and accept provisional bids, then offer the suite of furniture as a group, starting the bids at the combined value of the four pieces, to see if the set brings more interest in combination. So, after each piece, rather than saying "SOLD!" I say that I accept the high bid provisionally. After the four items I add up the 4 amounts and that constitutes the starting bid for the set. If no bids are offered advancing the combined amounts, then I turn the provisional high bids into the selling prices, but if those combined bids are exceeded by the bids on the set, the provisional bids are immediately nullified. Heritage had a major flaw in that they tried running both auctions simultaneously in an automated system, which is impossible to do.
The set lot should've stayed open until all the individual card lots had closed, then Heritage should've had a proxy account set up to simply execute the combined set price bid to give bidders on the set the opportunity to bid competitively. Honestly, it was malpractice on their part.
Great breakdown, Paulo
I wonder what Powell’s “max bid” was. Auctions always close at a price that is one bidding increment higher than the second highest bidders max bid. If Powell’s max bid for the complete set was say $700k or really any amount greater than what the cards sold for individually, I would say his argument is pretty air tight. Regardless, Heritage should’ve thought through all of these contingencies before running the auction. Frankly, I think they should’ve only auctioned the cards off individually, I can’t imagine a scenario where the set would sell for more than the individual cards, because anyone who wants the whole set would just make sure to be the high bidder on each individual auction. In fact this whole situation kind of proves that, had the complete set auction not been an option, Powell would’ve had to bid at least one increment higher on 12 individual items to secure the complete set, netting the seller 10s of thousands more.
Heritage = The ref in the Jets/Chiefs game who missed the blatant holding call late in the game - Sheesh!
I bid on heritage and the computer is set up for each individual lot closing if someone does not bid after 30 minutes. Obviously they did not change this arrangement for this auction which had the full set ending first after no more bids while the other individual bidding continued on. Heritage screwed up not adjusting there normal bidding rules for this rare individual vs. full set auction . What a mess.
Yup!
Once all individual cards "ended" Powell should have been notified ASAP with one chance to beat the total for the set. Heritage borked this one.
Usually heritage is very good. They made a 5% mistake on a set of consignments I did with them, and once I let them know, they sent me a check the next day.
That’s great!
Edit to my comment: Powell did not win the cards, Tate on Net54 was jokingly saying he won. My original comment: Mike, Powell got the set. He personally drove to pick it up and they came and delivered it to him in the parking lot of Heritage. Net 54, is where the big money is, and true knowledgeable collectors. I follow it every day. Post some of my collection there. The best vintage collections are shown there. Thanks for sharing Mike
Thanks Orlando. It’s pretty crazy in that forum.
Where did you see that Orlando? Powell lives in Michigan and he posted the following last night at 10:10pm "I’m moving on. It was a bad scene. I’m not suing anybody. I hope Aaron enjoys his card. It wasn’t his fault. I never thought I should get special treatment because I spend a lot of money. I should have had a fair chance to compete. The set lot was doomed and there is the unfairness. Anyway, I hope this experience reduces the risk it ever happens again. I appreciate the support from many of you. There are passionate collectors and many great people on this board whom I’ve learned a lot from. Thank you!
Powell"
@@prestigejapanbbI was mistaken, checked post and it was Jerry Tate. He posted that he bought them. Not Powell. Posted on net 54 today October pickup thread
@@JunkWaxHeroMy error not Powell, another collector Tate posted he bought them and picked them up today
@@ACollectorsDream can you email me that link? Something doesn’t smell right here
Great coverage, Mike. I think Heritage is in the wrong. The fact that Powell said he didn’t plan to sue is not a binding contract.....he still has a right to pursue legal action.
Right!
This is a great and crazy story. Thanks for sharing!
I wonder if Powell will avoid Heritage Auctions from now on? That's gotta hurt losing a big roller, I mean even Vegas knows how to keep the Whales in their pockets.
On real estate, they sometimes sell tracts of land and ask if anyone wants to raise the bid to combine the tracts.
they ASK not just ASSUME
I do not believe that auction houses should be allowed to double list the cards to start with . Pick a format and go with it .
Yeah it is an interesting choice
The football game analogy doesn't really fit, because he could have kept bidding if he had swapped over to the individual lots, it just would have been harder and inconvenient. He probably would have lost a few, but it sounds like he already has a few anyway. It sucks for him and the seller that the auctions were set up that way, but once they have been set you have to roll with the punches. I'm sure heritage has small print to protect them here, it sounds like half their customers are lawyers. That said, asking for heritage to honor the set was a fair request, but one it was fair to say no to. I think he did get a bit into sore loser territory when he just money wired heritage 600k assuming they would send him the cards because he did that
Excellent recap.
Much appreciated
Good research / recap Mike. Really well done.
- Tj
Thanks TJ!
Heritage messed up and should have known this had the potential to happen based on their software.
Powell should’ve been the winner. What a rational response.
I know 1 thing, if Heritage loses this gentleman as a customer someone will lose their job.
Give credit to Powell for not going off on other ppl calling him a sore loser. Heritage did screw up and just Potentially just lost a great customer.
He is calm and careful because he is setting up a legal battle. He is displaying his arguement and intent publicly. Then he takes a complete 360 meaning HA was 100% right legally somewhere in the print and he didn't have a case.
It will end up in court
If any team would get screwed it would be the lions 🤔
Feels like Heritage screwed this one up. Either way, I'd just like to be rich enough to have this problem
No kidding
Is this typical of auction houses? I really don’t like this setup - feels like a cop out
Apparently it’s semi-common. I hadn’t heard of it either, but I’ve never bought anything at a big auction house.
He goy duped.
Heritage is definitely NOT the best auction house! Hope he gets his set.
It shouldn't matter who Powell is or how much he spends. Fair is fair and this is far from it. If it wasn't stated somewhere that the individual cards would be given more bidding time, then it's an unethical auction IMO and if it was a software issue, then it was poorly planned. I'm glad I'll never be involved in such a situation 😋 #GivePowellHisSet #TeamPowell #Team$5Cards 🥸