Speaker Break In - Fact or Fiction? Test on the Micca RB42
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- Does speaker break in change the sound of a speaker? Also known as speaker burn in. Many believe that it does make a difference. Others don't. Let's see if we can tell the difference after 24 hours of speaker break-in period. Testing was done on the Micca RB42.
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Something that I think a lot of people might not realize is a lot of manufacturers burn in their speakers before they leave the factory, so results from personal burn in tests may not yield much of any result or nothing at all. I suspect Micca does, but I'm not too sure. I might have to ask my rep at Micca about that
I doubt budget oriented speaker manufacturers would take the time to burn in every speaker for 10+ hours. Time=money.
@@joentell True. Micca might though honestly, I had to have my power supply for my PB42x review unit replaced as it failed, and my rep at Micca told me they even burn in all of their power supplies.. So, maybe they do for speakers as well.
There's also the possibility the driver manufacturers run them though a burn-in test period to week out early failures. But Joe is right, time is money.
They sent me these for review so it's possible they did to make sure the review units work also. I'll ask the rep at Micca.
@@joentell Straight from my rep at Micca: "That's an interesting video! Micca does not burn in their speakers. They do subject the driver and speakers to a variety of audio measurements for quality control purposes, but they are not done with the goal of burning them in. "
30 years ago I worked in a HiFi store and for some loudspeakers burn in was an absolute must.
Fresh out of the box those speakers sounded lifeless, uninspiring, no dynamics, no bass.
It took 2 or 3 days to get them to sound like they supposed to. You could hear the difference day by day.
Obviously we only played them during the night. I can’t remember what kind of material those specific cones were made of.
Materials may have improved, but back in the day break in was a real thing.
My guess would be paper cones.
dtune30 Probably, but I just can’t remember for sure.
Yes, but he is only measuring frequency response. Which is a very simple measurement. It will not be very audible. But there are distortions that will be very audible.
Well, it makes perfect sense that the sound a speaker exhibits should change with use. After all, they are physical materials. The tremendous force vibrations can exert, especially low frequencies, will influence the shape and chemical structure of all materials, if even just marginally. The cones on my ADAM reference monitors are made with carbon fiber, presumably to withstand this change with extended use. But I am sure that, given enough time, even they will "break in" as a result of vibrations acting on airborne salts penetrating the rubber holding the cones in place, among other things. Nonetheless, it's an undisputed fact.
But it's usually blown out of proportions these days, as the changes people claim to hear, especially with high-end manufactured speakers, ought to be so minute, and take so much time to manifest, that they are barely worth mentioning. And if they are worth mentioning, depending on your individual situation, you may actually have a big problem.
Especially when people talk about wanting to break in atmospherically, luminously, electrically sealed, waterproof plastic bluetooth speakers, which they are likely to intend to throw around and sit on, it absolutely cracks me up. You could pretty much count the order of physical phenomena that can probabilistically have an effect on the physical integrity of the machine on a single hand. And they are rarely to your advantage.
"30 Years ago"
"Materials have improved"
30 years ago would be early 90s.
You know many speaker drivers are still built exactly like they were back then? Even some of the same models are still available! Especially in the more budget DIY segment, you would be surprised how many 90s and even 80s driver design are still around, and those are fantastic drivers for the price.
And yes, those drivers still need break in (primarily because that isn't done in the factory by cheaper manufacturers unlike your unobtainium drivers where they probably do that) and after a few hours of playing some noise and infrasonic, Fs shifts downwards and Vas goes up. Or just listen to some music and put up with the slightly worse sound in the beginning. Not really a problem.
I just bought a complete set of Klipsch floorstanding speakers (their top of the line home theatre series). Klipsch recommends 100 hours for full speaker break in. My brother bought B&W top of the line speakers and they recommend the exact same thing. Even when I had to replace the subwoofer in my car Rockford Fosgate recommended that it would take a MINIMUM 20 hours for complete break in, so YES this is a REAL THING 100%. I definitely noticed the difference in the subwoofer from when I first installed it to 20+ hours later. No comparison. Think about it, when a speaker is made all of its components have never been used before and in order for the speaker to "loosen up" and provide its "full dynamic range" it needs to be broken in and used for a certain period of time. Same thing applies to cars, tires and many other things in life. The basic rule of thumb for speakers is, the more "higher-end" the speaker the longer the break-in period.
Thanks Joe, I've wondered about this in the past. Interesting results.
Been watching your content more and more lately. Excellent channel! Subscribed!
Before I watch, it's both fact and fiction. The surround and spider will stiffen when not used but the first couple transients loosen them back up.
This test was well done. I'm in the school of thought that the speakers do burn-in as I've heard the difference in my speakers and subwoofers firsthand. This was very educational.
I remember my cerwin Vega vs15s and when they turned up the surround was vivid red and after facing the beasts together and running them for 10 hours a day for three days the surrounds were more of a pink and they sounded much tighter in the bass region.
great video! control, variable, test method, results, observations. This was one of the most scientific experiments I've watched on youtube. Great job. I'm hoping my civic's speakers break in because my sub is barely doing anything.
Good info to know .. thanks for this.
As someone who has assembled my own speakers I can tell you it is absolutely fact.
Once a subwoofer starts to loosen up it becomes more efficient to drive which affects all variables in the chain. While the resistive load of the coil will be the same, the reactive load changes and can result in a better damping factor for your amplifier. The woofer also reacts differently with its enclosure which can change the sound signature.
I think the biggest factor would be time under power and it's affects on the suspension of the woofer.
Many people have said that. I wanted to see if i could tell the difference with these speakers using my measurements.
I have no horse in the race. I would prefer for break-in to be true because it's just more fun to think that my new speakers will only get better over time.
In the graphs, the more evident differences are in the bass region. In a normal music track (any genre), this is the more power hungry and air moving section of the audio band. The cone of a sub makes great displacements from its resting position. That could be a good reason to burn-in a subwoofer (perhaps).
I wouldn't be upset if you revisited this topic one day with a subwoofer.
I feel like the smaller the driver, the less surface area of suspension parts... The less to actually burn or break in. Like a 6.5 inch driver has more spider and surround to become flexible with use verses a 4 inch driver. Or a folded surface tweeter verses a metal dome tweeter.
We ran an extreme class db drag racing (SPL competition) vehicle back in the day. Bulletproof glass, wooden interior, two 15's, 7 batteries, and 4 amps... Our number was always lower when we swapped out the subs for new ones while changing nothing else. After some use, our number always went back up to where it had been.
It wasn't hours and hours of use before it came back up, but those competition setups aren't your typical-use setups either.
Regardless, great video!
As a Logitech user, I'm pretty sure that the sub-woofer in my 2.1 Z213 system has loosened up now. It was much stiffer when brand new, and that was around three years ago. Back then, I couldn't hit frequencies under around 50 Hz. Now I can hit around 31 Hz, but just barely. I can tell because when I slide the 31 Hz band down on my equalizer, I can hear a difference. Even though just a little, I can still hear it. Also, on my previous system, the Altec Lansing BX1221, the sub-woofer is noticeably looser than the Logitech sub, to the point of rubbing the coil when I uneven it.
Great video!
👊😎
I have been playing guitar for over 20 years paying close attention to the sound my amp makes. A few years ago I built a speaker enclosure and purchased new loudspeakers for it. There was without a doubt a break in period. It took a couple months playing an hour or two most days, but over time the highs mellowed. When I first got them I thought I had made a huge mistake in the ones I had chosen and pulled the treble out. Over time I had to bring highs back in to retain the crispness that I like. Not at all an apples to apples between what we are using but that's my 2 cents in the mix.
Places with non burned in speakers when you receive them I always thought that you were supposed to have the speaker at a lower decibel AKA volume not a higher decibel or volume. The reason being because of the glue behind the woofer needs to form the cracks in other words. That's what every audio engineer has ever told me.
Thank you!
I trust my ears and I can say that I'm 100% convinced that speakers need burn in time. Furthermore, I would say that every single new hifi component if ever owned including turntables needed time to burn in.
? Not sure
I'm curious if there's a change when you slam it with 2000w transients, maybe the cone flex or intense stress would have an effect.
It would be interesting if different materials were tested to see if there is any validity to this. As you may recall, fluance claims their speakers need a burn in because of the type of material they use.
You're probably right.
Well if a speaker manufacture is recommending a specific "burn in" period or process, I personally would follow their instructions. Manufactures want you to enjoy their products (so you will be a loyal and return customer), so if they think in needs it to get the most out of there product, then I say do it. After all, it can't hurt anything, and if it does actually improve the sound, then you as the consumer only benefit from it.
Klipsch recommends a break-in for their speakers:
www.klipsch.com/blog/how-to-break-in-a-speaker
Ask speaker designers what they think. Most believe it's absolutely necessary.
My Polk towers absolutely sounded better over time of daily use. For me I could hear a different about 50-60 hours in
Man!
So elegant 'cause it's simple, yet intelligent experiment method!
You're far smarter than I guessed, wich was already quite a lot.
My congratulations, Joe.
I'm not as dumb as I look 😉
@@joentell Really not! 😃👍
@@joentell who says that?ur asian,most are smart.
Can you go over speaker placement for portable speakers?
I would be interested to see a few more like this video, maybe for different headphones? I know that it would be trickier for results as far as a control etc
is it normal for two speakers differ in freq.response measurements especially in the high frequency? coz i notice my one speaker is more dynamic or brighter in highs than the other one.is it normal?
what changed in the external parameters air humidity, air pressure due to changing day to day weather ?
Could've been any of those things. It could have been something was moved slightly. That's why it's so important to have a control when doing experiments.
Or voltage variation in the power supply ?
does it affect the impulse response? REW may be able to tell you.
I have replaced woofers a few times and have done other 2way and 3way builds. This isn't a big deal and they don't change much at all maybe its the difference between used hard and brand new. Go to parts express and look at wavecore woofers and they show the small theil before and after on the pdf that they have. Wavecor WF152BD03
SO I mainly listen to music using headphones... My Beyerdynamic Custom One Pro have most certainly "improved" over time. Right out of the box, they had a restrictive/tight bass response (unnatural amount), and female voices were a bit more harsh. However after a fair amount of play time (40 hours or so), the bass response is more natural, and female voices are very easy to listen too now. However, my other headphones have stayed the same and I have not noticed any "improvement" in sound signature.
So in conclusion, in my experience, I can say that some "speakers" will benefit from a burn in process, and some won't.
Hello Joe, I'm new to the passive speaker game . Do I need a dac for these speakers ? Thank you for your time
You don't need a DAC since most sources already have a built-in DAC. If you get a small amp like the SMSL AD18 or the Micca AD250, they have built-in DACs. kit.com/joentell
Thanks Joe for the quick reply ! Got it!
I've found pink noise doesn't move the cone much, so tend to blast house music through my speakers as loud as they will comfortably play without overloading the cone. What I did with a set of Eltax when I replaced the woofer on one of them which had been damaged by previous owner. I knew the system would be used by my grandma quietly and the stereo unit I had was under a watt anyway, so the replacement woofer would remain stiff otherwise.
I've also compared how soft and pliable my speakers are compared with my mum's. I tend to push mine at high volumes, whereas hers just do dinner music.
Off topic: what do you think about snare drum sound on that speaker? if you recall it obviusly. I'm whatching a playlist, really nice content. Saludos desde Argentina bro.
I really liked those speakers. Amazing for their size. I have some Argentinian friends. I wouldn't mind some maté right now.
I think speakers need time to warm up like tubes. They usually have capacitors in their crossover and these things charge up with time. Maybe this is why we feel the difference in the bass after playing them for a long time. They charge up.
Was it recommended by the manufacturer of this speaker to break them in. I. E. was there a break in Recommended as with the Fluance Ai60 speakers that you recently reviewed. If I remember correctly you said the AI 60s said there was a break-in. Maybe there is a break in period with some manufacturers and their materials they use and not others.
Not on these Miccas. But what you are saying might absolutely be true. It could depend on materials or their process.
Does one Manufacturer print this in the setup manual?? Just dropping that gem.
I watched a guitar amp/speaker vid which made me a true believer. The before and after difference was so great it wasn't up to debate. I think I can construct a big cardboard box and put each speaker inside of it individually with enough sound insulation to keep the roar down to a purr.
I measured 2 new woofers with DATS V2, there were measurable parameter changes after running a 20Hz sine wave for 24 hours. It may not show up so clearly in a completed speaker system, with the box and crossover, in a frequency measurement.
was the mic burned in?
That made me LOL! In a way that question actually makes a lot of sense though.
Well done on the scientific approach. Really interesting video. I think a bass driver depending on the suspension material can change slightly in its dynamic response, as to audible difference in sound being heard that would be the question. I think your results are quite correct 👍
I'm guessing that it varies based on materials and the manufacturing process. This is just one data point. Hopefully others will follow suit
@@joentell very true. I prefer the technical approach. As you say measurements show a change or not. Is it really audible well each to there own on that. Can you do cable burn in 😂
I did a test with bass perception a couple years ago. The reason this all came about is due to a pair of Polk Audio RTI 1000 tower speakers. When I bought them they were used and well broken in for years from the previous owner and to me had about 6db more bass than my old bookshelf speakers did. They seemed boomy and not very hifi. But I used them for a month and I realized I became used to the sound and started to like it. It was still bass heavy and slightly boomy after a month but much more acceptable to my brain. I then put back my old bookshelf speakers and I was shocked, they sounded so thin and lacking bass. I did place them in the exact same spot in the room where they were previously so I know it wasn't due to a different room configuration. So I think speaker burn in is a way for the manufacturers to get people to accept the change in sound. This is a more noticeable change than burn in for me.
I also believe there can be changes to a woofer during break in but only 1-2 db in most cases. Effective woofer break in requires stressing the spider and surround on the driver. It happens faster if you loop a bass test track that someone would use at a car stereo show for 50 hours minimum with the volume higher to the point the woofer is reaching xmax. Something that crawls through 25-40hz with drums and punchy bass I find best. I use this track and some others ua-cam.com/video/6A7anBXxdro/v-deo.html. I also unscrew the woofers in any new speaker and let them sit on the floor during the burn in phase. This way you don't hear any bass at crazy levels in your house for 50 hours since bass will phase cancel when the woofer is out of the box. Sometimes the speaker wires are short so I unhook them from the drivers and I made some alligator clips with extra speaker wire to extend them so they can sit on the floor. www.amazon.com/Alligator-Crocodile-Soldering-Electronics-Connector/dp/B075XZZ6XL/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=alligator+clips+awg&qid=1553797717&s=gateway&sr=8-14. With those micas you broke in I would have had them playing harder and louder during the break in so you could imagine how annoying that would be to your family members if let in the box rocking the house lol.
The pink noise plays does play down to 20hz. You can see the woofer moving pretty hard on the video. It's at my retail shop so we were able to play it loud overnight.
Good tips though! 🙏
Would the experiment not work better if you compared data of a set of speakers now vs data from before about the same speakers
Too lazy. 😉 Honestly, I figure audible differences matter the most so I would at least do that. Any changes to compliance would likely result in an audible difference anyway.
Would seem burn in would only apply to a fresh rebuild. Yes?
Ok, but did the control speaker know you were burniing in its partner? Obviously the change in it was due to confirmation bias. I kid! Good test. Looking forward to your full RB42 review.
Lol. I'm working on it. 🙏
If I was to criticize this test, I would run down this route. If the control and variable were close enough, you could expect resonance in the control. Whether or not it's enough to passively burn in a speaker, I don't know, but it would be interesting if it were true.
Every Elac UniFi I have ever owned (3 pair) measured very strange straight out of the box... But after a couple of hours they all settled down to about the same normal measurement... I think there is an initial driver\crossover break in which occurs immediately after taking them out of the box, but quickly settles. (At least with the Elac UniFi series) I saw it every time. Mostly I saw an unnatural boost in the mid to treble region for a couple of hours. I think Elac's special concentric driver unit requires a very short time to come to spec out of box.
Ive been playing around with this but on an entirely new system and not very scientific. After 4 hrs roughly of pink noise my setup sounded a lot better but it could have been many things most notably amplifier burn in on a brand new outlaw 5000 also all new SVS interconnects and fresh speaker wire so who knows i just figured it couldnt hurt anything so give it a shot haha..
Could the change be from the amp? Like do you typically use that amp a lot? Could it be the 24hr load on the amp that caused the change in both responses the next day?
Might need to use a different amp for the actual breaking in to eliminate that variable.
Probably not. I paused the pink noise before measuring which would allow capacitors to charge up.
@@joentell Nice, very nice video. Thanks for taking the extra effort here. Looking forward to the review.
Thank you sir! I appreciate you!
Very scientific and clear research. Very nice job! Some say that the burn-in process is more for the crossover than the drivers. Since some speaker have very complex designs up to 50 parts for the crossover, do you think it is possible to test that theory? Thanks so much!
I think I would need to do multiple tests
@@joentell Since I don't have the equipment you do, I would have to challenge you to try and set up a demonstration that might show if it make a difference or not. That would require a complex setup for sure.
I've been told many times speaker break in doesn't occur. Yet, when I used the fluance ai40 I had to dial back the treble and bass because the mid-range was so reserved sounding. After 3 weeks I found I was raising bass and treble up a little at a time until it was almost flat. Could've been in my ears but I think anyone should give a speaker 3 weeks of regular usage before making a judgement. Even then, if you haven't used it at least 60 hours at pretty loud volume it probably hasn't done all it could do as far as changing it's sound form. I think speakers do warm up or break in or something or either my ears do but I think it's the speakers. It's like they just become clearer not necessarily changing their frequency responses, it seems to have to do with quality of those frequency responses. I think you can get 2 "flat" speakers and one can sound lifelike and the other sound like it's coming from a can so to speak. There's more to a speakers sound than frequency response measurements or probably any kind of measurement data can show. Those things are useful but I don't think they can tell the whole story of how it will sound to your ears. How do you measure airiness? Or imaging? Or soundstage? Or bloated bass? You can perhaps get a sub to measure more evenly pushing into a corner but the result could be in worse bass quality because it turns it boomy, over attenuated, under detailed, you just can't measure everything. I believe break in is one of those things.
I think it is more important in DIY, manufacturers even tell you how They want there. Speakers break in. Some as long as 100 hours.
Cmon Joe, everyone knows a speaker needs 1,000 hrs of burn in before your brain can make you think the sound has changed. 😂. Cool video. I’ve never put any stock into burn in. Maybe subs loosen up a bit as the spider is stiff but certainly not 100 hrs needed.
🤣
Well certainly Klipsch RP series require burn in cuz u gotta get that copper colored cone up to temp!😜
Haha oh yeah... :)
@@Carl-bd1rf
Klipsch recommends a break-in for their speakers:
www.klipsch.com/blog/how-to-break-in-a-speaker
Small formfactor speakers doesn't change much after post burn in , you should do this test again with tower speakers.
Nice
could be anything temperature humidity everything can make a change even small pieces of furniture in the room
It could be
What do you mean by humidity?
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 you don't know what humidity is? If it rains outside it's usually humid after...oh yeah hotter room also means faster sound. Usually I hear the bass better when my room is warmer here in Montreal we can really decide what temperature we want in our rooms starting from below Zero to wherever the thermostat wants to go++
@@Montreal_Audio_Systems Well... It's a well known fact that both humidity and temperature alters not only the speed of sound, but most important the response of materials to it.
And materials are those a spraker is made of AND the room's ones.
Maybe (just MAYBE) this is behind the differences you perceive in different weather conditions.
I always wondered. If break-in/burn-in period is necessary, why manufacturers don’t give you instructions or do it in factory?
Break in should be rather 50 to a 100 hours. Different types of drivers will react more severe to this as others. Softdome vs planar diaphragm tweeters or really stiff bass drivers and so on. As mentioned in other comments, some manufactures break in at the factory. In some cases, it's even stated clearly at the box or manual there is a break in period. Personally I could hear a rather big difference with my own new speakers. Low end got deeper and more detailed while the tweeter became less harsh, softer and easier to listen to.
Would’ve liked to see this test done but with:
-A bigger higher quality amp that’s already burned in
-Multiple speaker designs
-burn in for ~100 hours instead of 24
-playing pink noise but also playing all sorts of music genres during the burn in
look back in the day i had a mcintosh ma6600 integrated amp along with the dynaudio focus 220 2nd gen. i bought everything toghether brand new. out the box it sounded great. i wasnt doing any break in test. just normal listeing. after about a day an a half. i noticed a pretty big change in sound as i was listening i didnt even see it coming but the bass extedended the mids an highs everything started sounding bigger more depth. i was pretty shocked. it was very noticable. so im not sure if that was the speakers or amp. i already had the cd player so it wasnt that.
Watch my recent review of the ELAC Uni-Fi Reference. I talk about it. I also discuss it here ua-cam.com/video/WTnNq12VZpg/v-deo.html.
Think about an optical illusion. Your eyes deceive you and only a ruler or some objective measurement will tell you that what you're perceiving isn't really what your eyes are telling your brain. Same thing happens with audio and I have the measurements to show that what I'm saying is true.
please review - NUMAN Retrospective 1978 MKII
Best audio youtuber
Appreciate that!
isn’t 24hr a bit short burn in time? I thought roughly 200 hours more or less was common.
Er, why cant we hear if there's a difference?
Seems like the next test would be to do a burn in test for a high end pair of speakers.
Yes it works, because I have 4 speakers are used 2 of them the most, and the 2 that get used the most sounds much better than the other 2 that don’t get use.
A half db? Humidity, barometric pressure, and temperature could all add up to a half db. It's pretty insignificant.
Even accumulation of some dust particles on the mic might might provide a marginal change.
And frequency tests don't tell the whole story. What about decay and distortion?
All in all, the more I look into the matter, burn in is real, but quite negligible.
A bad sounding speaker won't miraculously sound better from burn in. You're probably just getting used to it. And to make sure, don't listen to the speaker at all during what the manufacturer says is a reasonable amount of burn in. Put on some material and leave. Continue until enough time has been put on them. Then listen to them. If they're still awful, then they're awful. Send them back.
Hung up on a string we tested the fs of a Faital Pro 10 fh520 after a very short break in. It had shifted down 2 hz already after a day of breaking in. I would say these tests are misguiding since there don't seems to be a blanket we can put on alla speakers. As in most tests, "it depends". Spider construction, surround, cone materials. If measured the same after a day of pink noise and we had a 2 hz decline. Only shows that there is no simple answer.
I think it depends, I know my SVS SB-3000 subs are loosening up over the past few weeks. At least to my ears they are, need to tweak again. But, it could all be in my head too... My SVS Ultra speakers, they sound the same to me, been about a month with them, and they play daily. Listening to them all right now.
I want to say it's mostly in your head, as I play with my systems DSP on the sub, and like it, then the next day I don't because it sounds odd.
And it sounded odd because my right ear has been having some issues lately with being slightly blocked so everything sounds odd, but I didn't notice it until really sitting down and listening lol
It could also be the sub loosening up, not trying to disprove that.
My dual SVS SB3000 s AWAYS sound great!
I bet they do!
@@paulgolub6823 I love these things! So much nicer than the ported, just rock solid. And I never said they sounded bad... ;-)
@@JoshM7 Well... Yes, it could very well be in my head... But these subs just keep sounding better by the day. Something good is going on. ;-)
Well, after about 10 hours or so, I had to re-adjust my sub about 2db to match. Something loosened up.
I found even a bigger difference - not measured but quite audible with my Hsu sub. The overall output was noticeably higher after about 20 hours or so. I had to turn the output control down a notch to tame some noise coming from my houses structure.
I can believe that.
That can be subjective. It's best to measure like Joe.
@@hardcorecap Completely, utterly, and unapologetically subjective.
@@Supperconductor I run mine ports closed. Definitely gained a bit after several hours. Again, Pink noise balancing indicated a slight gain from initial setup. I consider that measured, not subjective at all.
Break in does exist but it happens within seconds and minutes not hours and days like you often hear. Generally, the smaller the driver, the faster it breaks in. Like some others have mentioned, often the parts are broken in from testing before the speaker is even assembled or when the speaker gets tested before it gets sent out to you. You can chalk up differences "heard" by people to psychoacoustics. You want it to sound different and so your brain makes it sound different to you.
Welp I guess my skar audio speaker will sound like trash forever. I bought the rpx models of the 4x6 and 6x9. Guess you get what you pay for no matter the brand. Could it be because I am still running the stock amp for my car speakers?
Back in the day, my father burned in his Wharfedale Diamonds 7.2 Anniversary back in -00. What we did was play it at normal speaking volume for about 10 days of daily use. And both of us could hear a different after those days.. If it was the speakers actually soften up, or if it was our ears just getting used to them is up for debate though :D
Yeah, I'm not sure. It's possible it makes more of a difference on some speakers and not on others based on materials and the process used in building them.
voltage can change.. thus output of pink noice can change ?
The material of the mic Stands expand and contracts, which makes them move even if we don't noticed it
Control was in same room during burn-in of variable? You know twins and experiment, both far away versus in same town.
I kept them nearby in the same room to ensure that temperature or other conditions affects them both equally.
i doubt that foam surround speaker used in stereo systems need "breaking or burning
From my experience Every speaker is not equal. Some factory's burn drivers in before shipping, Some do not even need it. I think if there is lots of excess glue on the spider, or surround it might need loosened up a bit. The newer stuff seems to have better quality control.
Makes sense. It just didn't in this scenario.
I think you gott this wrong....😮😅
@@joentell I think high a speakers with accordion surrounds are the the type break in makes the biggest difference. That's coming from more of a live music scenario. Great job! Great channel Joe!
It’s different for different speaker. I’ve owned speakers that sounded down right defective out of the box and models that didn’t change at all. There’s so many measurements that you can make beyond frequency response, but whether you believe or not is ultimately irrelevant. What’s far more interesting to me is your comparison reviews. Keep up the great work!
I think it probably does vary from one speaker to another
Ditto on all counts. I'm wondering how tonal change is measured. I have a buddy who swears his Dali floorstanders sound better with the grilles on. What he's really saying is "I'm used to hearing them this way". They sound way more open of course without them.
Tonal changes are shown with a frequency response graph
@@joentell Ok but what if something sounds "boxy" or muffled, or even pitchy. How is that measured. We've all heard speakers like this. I heard the new Yamahas, those huge things, sounded flat as a wet sock. Badly set up or just a bad design. I'd have to say set up. Yet on paper...
The terms boxy and muffled typically correspond to how sounds in the vocal region or higher are recessed compared to the rest of the response. It also could describe a speaker with a lot of unwanted resonances which could definitely affect the frequency response at those resonant frequencies, but is best analyzed using harmonic distortion charts which are derived from the same sweep test measurement.
Pitchy sounds like a speaker that has a very non-linear frequency response. That's not a good term because it implies that the frequency response changes the pitch of the original source like a singer who is "pitchy."
Joe, Please demo some Martin Logan speakers. The motion series is great (I personally own the Motion 40's). And their electrostatic speakers are simply breathtaking. I work at Magnolia and work with many of the speakers you talk about every day, including the ones I mentioned. Best audio videos I've come across
Note: Martin Logan is great and I talk to their associates all the time with work. They'd be happy to send you speakers to review!
Hook me up! I would love to check some out.
@@joentell I can email my bud at Martin Logan and see about getting you in contact with the right guy! I'll let you know as soon as I hear back :)
@@joentell When a reply should I reach you again by commenting in this thread?
When I get* a reply
Some other youtuber tested break-in for a subwoofer driver and got major differences in T/S parameters before and after beak-in. Maybe it depends on the speaker,
It most likely does depend.
I am wondering is it normal for a pair of new speakers to have slightly different frequency responses because i think my two speakers also does not sound the same exactly
Slight variations are ok, but not big ones
I am also thinking like that only slightly differencies i can hear like one is sounding more spaceous and again they are Dynaudio monitor speakers not the entry level
And thank you for you fast responce keep the work i like your channel cheers
Im setting up later today ma gold 100s
Ive read few times, they require hundreds of hours to burn in 🤦♂️🤷♂️
great test. but the one playing for 24 hours probably got a bit hotter. wich could explain the difference.
i bought the FOCALPOLIKEVLAR components line for my car decades ago. listening it for the first time along with my rockford fosgate amp was a total disappointing and made me wonder; is this the sound what i paid for? it sounded like tinny, real crap i just thought. playing it for a couple of days then made it sound a lot better, it was night and day. how i love those speakers sing!
so i must say, speaker break in is true, my ears just can't lie.
fast forward today and one of the drivers(woofer) now dead. bought a new pair and i'm into breaking it in.
Great objective video
Thank you!
You messed up, speakers only burn in if you play
"Fire" By Hendrix through them.
👊😎
you were only measuring the frequency response. Not phase accuracy etc. That type of distortion will not show up on your measurements, but it will be very much more audible.
Let's be honest most people don't have the equipment to do these sorts of tests and rely completely on how they sound to them. There are so many variables, type of sound, music types, position of speakers, cabinet size, sub woofer with frequency control etc. Also most people have a slight imbalance between their ears and it's not all the same. Then there's personal taste and choice of style. For example try listening to a full orchestra recording off vinyl then compare it with an electronic dance track off a CD then maybe a rock track off MP3. Listen to these in a large room then listen to them in a car. Whatever the sound snobs say it's still your ears and what you like. Budget equipment far exceeds the sounds you used to get from even high quality speakers from years ago. You only have to listen to the bass response from a small bluetooth speaker nowadays and compare it to the monster cabinets of my youth.
Which speaker sounds better to you, the burn in speaker or the control ? Note: while the speakers are the same as in brand and model, they are not identical. Thank you for taking the time to do this but ultimately one would have to use a bigger sample size of burn in speakers and control speakers. Uh oh, audiophiles will be "break in" matching speakers and stating they hear a difference. I personally don't believe in this theory
I've heard that the smaller the woofer, the less significant and less necessary break-in is.
It's sad how people think the only way to test break in is to measure frequence response. They neglect measuring impulse response, 30hz/300hz square waves, distortion character and other aspects that really make a difference on how refined the speakers sound. Our ears and brain's are complex enough to detect more than just frequency response of speakers.
Next challenge... break in test for a stylus (and after that use the same methodology with cheap vs expensive speaker cable) 😉
There are those who believe cables do break in. I once read a reviewer say it.
@@porkchopspapi5757 I like to leave mine in the freezer for a year before using them. Poor man's cryogenic treatment. The aural spaciousness and the linear transients are far improved! 😜
In my experience normally most of the burn in happens normally in the first ten minutes after that the changes tend to be more subtle and can be viewed as a refinement or stabilization of it, this also depends of the stiffness of the materials used, the power rating of the speaker an the power used to drive it, basically trying to burn in using only 1% of the rater power is going to take hours but doing it at only 50% of it rate power makes it happen in nimutes.
One interesting note is that the tests done by any respectable manufacturess are enougth long to do most of the burn in needed to do the loosening the materials.
KEF recognizes that burn-in may affect the sound and Cambridge Audio & Klipsch .recommend it.
Shouldn't you brake in the woofer using lower frequencies only? I guess there is no need to brake in the tweeter.
Some people would say you need to break in both.
I don't think break in will be shown in measurements.. strangely enough you can have two speakers play flat and they can sound different. I know this because I can equalize a speaker in different ways to result in an almost flat frequency response and it will sound different based on which bands are lowered and raised. Sound is hard to quantify.
What I have found over the years is larger speakers loosen up just a little from use and that allows them to sound a little tighter when the sound changes. I notice the biggest difference on 10" and up speakers. My Klipsch speakers have 6.5 woofers in them and some sounds slightly changed after I ran them a week. I listen to a lot of Chicago and the bass parts sounded a littler tighter and quicker to react after the week. It was subtle and I likely wouldn't have heard it if I didn't listed to those CD's so often. When I went to Crank it ups in the late 80's early 90's, you could geta bout 1/2 db and a smoother bass response after the subs were broken in for a few days. I don't think I have ever heard a difference after that break in vs. years latter. The only really high end speakers I have ever owned I got used so not sure about all mfg, but most seem to say give them a break in period. Very expensive Speakers may be broken in at the factory, I don't know. All the Polk, JBL, and Klipsch I have owned said to break them in. Wether it helps or not, it doesn't hurt to do it. My Sennheiser HD595 Cans also said to break them in. I noticed way back that subs were easier to move by hand after a week of using them. The quicker the cone can move the better it should sound, or at least the better it should represent the audio being fed to it.
I guess the truth is, that if you use the speakers, break in will occur anyway so it's not a big deal whether we believe it or not. That's in the long term. I think maybe where it might become an issue is if someone has a limited time to try the speakers. If they don't like them, and if they believe it needs to be burned in for X amount of time, maybe that gives them time to either get used to the sound of the speakers, or the speakers will actually break in and sound better. It's tough to say what actually happens and might vary from speaker to speaker. This is only a single data point, but maybe more people will start doing break in tests for speakers to see if they do change for that particular speaker.
@@joentell when I did big stereos back in the late 80's/early 90's I was told by Lanzar and Crunch techs ( we had software to make boxes and the techs were great about customer's weird sizes and work arounds ) to not play the subs over 100db for a few hours until they broke in.( the efficiency was 94-97 db 1w @ 1M so it didn't take much gain to hit that SPL ) I guess if the voice coil was tight or there was friction for some reason, running them at lower levels allowed them to loosen up before being really hit hard. I think this is true ( I am not 100% of the memory ) but I think the variance in ohms over the travel of the cone could be affected by an improper break in. If you hit it hard right from the start, it would have a lower impedance as the cone moved vs. proper break in. We were running many systems at 1ohm so a 1/4 ohm difference could cause the amp to shut down. I never tried it any other way so I don't know for sure. The cone were very stiff when new and after a few hours you could move the cone with 1/5 the effort as when new. Anything with a longish travel likely benefits from a break in, at the factory, or when you get it.
I'm not a skeptic. I thought it was true for a long time and I still believe it could be despite my tests. It might be more common with bigger drivers as you say, or maybe the designs back then required more break in than the newer stuff. I honestly don't know. I thought this test would give me more answers. Instead, it just opened up more questions.
@@joentell The mid grade Klipsch Speakers I got in 2018 said the break them in so it still is a thing now. These only have 6.5" drivers and I did notice a little bit better controlled bass in 2 of my favorite Chicago songs. You may not hear the difference or you may. My headphones didn't really sound much different but Sennheiser said to break them in as well. They are open back HD-595's. I think you would need to find a brand that says to break in and then test to see if there is any measurable difference. What you tested may have been done at the factory .I also never use pink noise, I use regular music. I do it at around 1/8 volume for 1 day and then 1/4 volume for 1 day.
Humidity, atmospheric pressure, temperature is probably what caused the changes.
Any views on the benefits of using these?
Burn In CDs:
Densen Audio Technologies - Densen DeMagic
Sheffield Labs : XLO Test & Burn-in CD
Sheffield Labs : MDMS : System Conditioning and Degaussing
Stereophile's Special Burn-In Noise
Jean-Marie Reynaud - Magic CD
I don't think this apply to subwoofers because the spiders do get more flexible after breaking in
I think that people think burn in makes a difference but I think they are getting used to listening to their speakers and their ears start adjusting to their speakers which makes them think the speakers are changing
Cool stuff BTW what about Amp warm up? is that a real thing? i hear lots of audio guys talk about leaving their amps to warm up for like 6 to 12 hours in order to get the best performance? I don’t know, I mostly use good old Japanese audio amps and they all sound the same regardless if they are warm or cold.
Maybe tube amps?
Tube amps need to warm up, but not for any audiophilic reason. It's to create harmonic distortion for guitars. I could be wrong though. Solid state amps need no warm up time.
@@joentell Yes, tube amps for sure, and solid-state amps that are biased closer or completely in Class A. I used to leave my Hafler 9505 amps on all the time until I got my Vandersteen 2CE's. Richard Vandersteen in the owner's manual recommended to NOT leave amps on all the time to minimize the chances of a stray noise spike blowing out speakers' fuses/drivers. My Class D amps don't really change over time, but my Quicksilver Audio V4's most certainly do. My Class AB solid state ones, can't tell for sure, probably not.
I got you. 📢
Some speakers loosen up over time some don't. I don't really know why. I've had woofers that get so loose over time that they will smack the voice coil on the back of the magnet.
That sounds like you're bottoming out the woofer
@@joentell yes it's a very unpleasant sound. It causes instant panic and running for the volume control 😂😂😂😂
I've always heard people say it takes weeks or sometimes months, leading me to believe it's a mental thing more than anything. When it's new your brain isn't used to it. You get used to the sound and it becomes more "enjoyable". A really bad pair of speakers never seem to become great by using them more though. 😂
You got it!