Kreia is peering over the fence on this one. The problem with the force is that if it needs you to die or suffer for its idea of some nebulous greater good, you will.
Yeah, The Force is kind of a dick and Kreia was right to hate it. Thing is, I'm convinced that Qui-gon could have been the only Jedi Master who could have trained an Anakin Skywalker who would NOT fall to the Dark Side. That is why he needed to die. I think The Force wanted the old Jedi Order gone so a better one could eventually take its place so Anakin never had a choice. He was destined to fall and suffer as Darth Vader, all those Jedi were destined to die, even the younglings. The Force, in its never ending attempt to achieve balance doomed so many good people by throwing Qui-gon under the bus. The "will of The Force" is such a horrible concept when you stop and think about it. Anakin went from war hero to child killer in an instant because that was the will of The Force, like that. It's absolutely not his fault. Meanwhile, heroic actions like Han Solo saving Luke at the end of A New Hope are also not merits. Both Anakin and Han were just puppets of The Force.
I mean the force punishes evil but it needed to ensure it’s plan b of yoda and Luke or leia was in effect to ensure the siths defeat. The sith had been spreading war and suffering in secret for a while now weakening an already complacent Jedi order and blinding them to the sith. So it made an anakin to correct the sith and Jedi problem and restore light and peace. Unfortunately as the sith killed or sabotaged his relationships and the Jedi were no help the force likely foresaw he could fail and made plan b. When the stakes are trillions of innocent lives then you do what’s necessary to ensure peace and the least amount of suffering in total. The only moral grey I believe in is evil born out of necessity when Ther is no better seeable alternative so the force kinda had to be a dick considering the stakes. Think of it as “ God works in mysterious ways” as how the force works as if qui-fin lives and anakin failed plan b couldn’t work but plan a could work without quo-gin there to help, it had the most likely best outcome if he died. Kreia’s fault was not seeing necessary evil and mistaking the force for being cruel, heartless or callous when really it’s just trying to minimize suffering and evil.
Well, Kreia is right in a sense that Force is the greatest evil in SW universe. Sensitivity to the Force is often given to totally undeserving beings, Force is a main motivator for all the wars and suffering. And, as is it is shown in this example, Force will betray you in the end. Another great mind ( Darth Plagueis) said that Force should be made beast of burden, but never a ruler over Sith.
@@aleksazunjic9672 no being starts out undeserving only becoming so through actions and choices. The force corrects those choices by guiding those who are deserving in redeeming or vanquishing the undeserving. If it was truly a great evil it simply wouldn’t care. The force is usually bright if dark grey at worst. And for all we know qui-gon could have been intended to live. He said his training was incomplete if it was why would the force let him die. Him dying was likely a spanner in the works for both plan a and b. And no the force couldn’t just save qui-gon as Han said “that’s not how the force works” which is hopefully the only quote I’ll ever use from the sequels. The force isn’t Omni-potent just powerful and uses power in subtle ways.
There is no Light Without the Dark, Through Passion I gain Focus, Through Knowledge I gain Power, Through Serenity I gain Strength, Through Victory I gain Harmony, There is only THE FORCE.
I had thought that the force wanted him to be a force ghost to help train Yoda and open his eyes to what was going on as well as what was spoken about in this program. I thought that they needed him as a ghost to be a guide to help bring along the balance.
plus for Ankin to restore balance; unfortunately, Vader was the way and the only real way (at the time) to temporarily remove the emperor. I think the Force is simply trying to draw the best straws with all the strain from the darkside and the Sith's manipulations (throughout time)
Because Yoda (and the rest of the order) were not truly following the will of the force leading to their ultimate destruction. So Qui Gon as a ghost helped Yoda to realize that and train Luke differently in the future.
I don't think the Force betrayed him, rather the Force used him to test the Jedi. Ultimately they failed and the penalty was not only Qui Gon's death but the eventual annihilation of the Jedi.
It's ironic the Jedi order would butt heads with a member that truly followed the Jedi way and unquestionably submitted themselves to the will of the force.
@@gerald8543 Qui-Gon did not truly follow the Jedi way because his presumption shows in various scenes, one of which he decided on his own judgement to train Anakin and that Obi-Wan was ready for the trials, nvm mind the fact that it wasn't his decision to make. Qui Gon fanboys say these things because he butted heads with the council, even though he clearly had his own character flaws.
Not the Republic's Jedi Way, that's why he bumped heads. He believed in and follow the will of the force. What even is The Jedi way, but the one Yoda reveals and later adopts after hindsight and realizing the flaws of the Republic Era Jedi order, and Luke attempts to re start. To follow the will of the force. Was everything that happened and happens not the will of the force? His "presumptions"
Granted I think Darth Maul's account/thoughts of the battle run counter to this. He said that he knew he was going to lose because of how powerful Qui-Gon Jinn was and that he felt the force was in favor of Qui-Gonn and so Darth Maul had to resort to "the dirty trick".
Maul would obviously think it was about him and his dirty trick, because that falls into the philosophy of the Sith being about them and their own power. However, it could be that was just his perception of the Living Will of the Force guiding the fight.(?)
@@HughToob if Maul was really that prideful he wouldnt have even acknowledged what he did as a "dirty trick" and just say he beat Qui-Gon because he was the superior fighter.
I think Qui-Gon simply accepted his end. He was very devout to the force, one of simply following their intuition and better better inclinations. Being that the Jedi of the time were very dogmatic and controlling, it's not surprising something as dynamic as the force would powerfully correct. Then realizing it underestimated its own efficiency. The Jedi order was too dogmatic, which I firmly believe that had they not been so dogmatic and controlling, the order might have survived....
I think the the Force actually gave the Jedi severall warnings and hints on how to course correct, the problem is that the Jedi ignored them. Anakin might've been orignially meant to rally the Jedi against Sidious and bring them back to the true way and an Anakin trained by Qui-Gon might've been simply to passive to do that. By alienating Anakin, falling into every trap set by Sidious and refusing to realise that they had lost their, Anakin turned from a saviour to a destroy and than got broken into a mere tool of the darkside.
Qui Gon Jinn is hands down my favorite Jedi of Jedi. I love his character even more than Luke and Kenobi. For this very reason, by the age of the Republic, he was perhaps the only true Jedi left that embodied what the order really meant. I also like the idea that Luke supposedly used Qui Gon's Kyber crystal for his lightsaber.
He was the reason I say that TPM was the best of the three movies for me. It had its goofy moments, but he carries the movie and brings a soul to it that nobody else in the series could.
Kreia was right in a sense that Force is the greatest evil in SW universe. Sensitivity to the Force is often given to totally undeserving beings, Force is a main motivator for all the wars and suffering. And, as is it is shown in this example, Force will betray you in the end. Another great mind ( Darth Plagueis) said that Force should be made beast of burden, but never a ruler over Sith. This is actually true for any Force user.
As a religious person, that kind of thinking disturbs me--though you are entitled to your opinion, of course. How does it make any sense to judge something that is almost by its premise beyond human/sentient understanding, by our standards? The whole idea of the "problem of evil" vis a vis the Epicurean Paradox is flawed for one basic reason: Where do our notions of "good" and "evil" come from? If God created us, I think He also gets the credit for any ideas we attribute to ourselves. We can't even judge animals' actions by our own moral codes, and nobody's saying they transcend our understanding!
@@EthanKironus8067 Well, it is not beyond human understanding. To quote Jesus :"You Will Know Them by Their Fruits". Thus, in Christianity even God himself says that humans have ability to distinguish between good and evil. And what are the fruits of the Force ? For the most part - wars , Star Wars.
@@aleksazunjic9672 I don't see any indication that we're meant to evaluate God with that logic. As for Star Wars specifically, the force itself isn't conducting any of those wars. Let alone that there are plenty of warmongerers in the SW universe (er, galaxy) who lack any meaningful connection with the force--i.e. the Mandalorians, they had their whole culture before the Darksaber was ever built. P.S. I know Star Wars is fictional. It's the way that arguments that the force is negative can be used against real-life religions that bother me. P.P.S. Considering Kreia's "solution" to the force would have killed significant numbers of people, I'm not inclined to trust her conceptions of good and evil. Her role in forcing introspection is 'good', though. P.P.P.S. If we talk Darth Caedus (not naming him by real name for anyone concerned about Legends novel spoilers), he fell to the dark side because he grew arrogant of his own virtues after a moment of absolute oneness with the force. That was his response to the force, not the force itself.
@@EthanKironus8067 In Christianity, gift of the fruit of good and evil (knowledge of good and evil) is final. Even God cannot change it, except by destroying humans. Implications of this are enormous, as even God gets judged - that is the main point of crucifixion of Jesus . However, in SW universe things are much simpler. Force is not a God, it is not even source of life. It is mostly just a parasitic entity. And yes, Force IS the source of most of the conflicts in SW universe, including genocidal wars. Non-Force sensitives like Mandalorians are comparatively small fry. Without Sith to lead them, they would simply be crushed by more industrialized and bigger opponents. Mandalorians are simply Mongol horde of the SW universe. Dangerous, but eventually defeated. As for real life - religions are mostly criticized as being false (i.e there is no God, but humans still kill each other in his name). In SW universe Force is real, but is simply not a God, or even positive entity. As for Kreia solution, it is not a real solution, just a glimpse of it. We could say that separating parasite from the host often damages the host, but it is beneficial in long term.
@@EthanKironus8067 You are taking the Force too seriously, son. No one is judging God, but a fictional entity loosely alledgedly based on a few Earthan philosophies.
Qui Gon needed to become one with the Force. He believed in the will of the Force. Living and Cosmic. He had to teach Yoda and Obi Wan. So they could in turn teach Luke. The Jedi were doomed. They had brought imbalance to the Force by their religious doctrine. And being puppets of the Republic. And ultimately Palpatine. The Force was imbalanced long before the Sith’s return. Great video. May the Force be with you…always!
I think this whole thing was a certain point of viewing things. The Force led Qui-Gon to a small room so the acrobatics of Ataru would not serve him and Maul's trick would ultimately kill him but if Qui-Gon did not die then he could not become one with the Force and teach Yoda the Force Ghost ability during the Clone Wars. He'd be too busy as a general and not able to guide Yoda to that planet.
If anything it would have given him time to perfect becoming a force ghost and he would have trained anakin. I seriously doubt he would have been a general in the war too because he's not being misled like the jedi were
He probably wouldn't be a general. Also Anakin would've had the perfect teacher/ father of he lived. He wouldn't be palatine's apprentice, and order 66 could've possibly been avoided. Doku might not have even left the order and put even more dampers on palatine's plans
He wouldn't be a general because he was already old during TPM I think he was 60, AOTC happens at least 10 years after TPM so Anakin might have gone to war with OBI instead because Qui-Gon would have been too old.
You're looking at these individual events as their own, unique, "bring balance to the force" event, which didn't work out so another "bring balance to the force" event had to happen, but I think that is a mistake. The entire event, starting with Anakin and ending with Luke as the last "jedi", though not really a Jedi in the previous sense, was that event. Anakin was destined to bring balance, which he did, by turning to the dark side, having a son both redeem him (something the Jedi dogma said could not happen) and face down the most evil and powerful man in the galaxy. He had none of the Jedi's dogmatic organizational failings and knew better than anyone that nobody was above redemption in the force. Wiping out the Sith was not going to bring balance. Luke reset everything and that was the will of the force. That's what's so disappointing with the last trilogy and their handling of Luke. Luke earned incorruptible status and it's a disservice to the character to act like he'd run away from his failings. The last Jedi should have been Luke, not running from his failures, but out exploring, trying to understand the will of the force, the light, the dark, the middle, and whether restarting the jedi order was to blame for it all happening, seemingly, again. Looking for something to show his nephew the true path. That's why he wouldn't train her, why "the jedi have to die", etc. So much wasted potential...
in his case i doubt the force would need to betray him - if anything he would accept anything the force presented to him as it is - if it wihed him to die he would accept it if anything the force had a plan for Qui-gon thus it lead him on a certain path - if that path required him dying then so be it and he would be okay with this.
This is important. Throughout the video he describes the Force as "betraying" Qui-Gon, yet the way Qui-Gon believed in the Force would suggest that, as you said, he would willingly accept death if the Force needed it from it.
The death of a father is a powerful thing. Obi-Wan had to step up because of it, and so did Luke in the original with Obi-Wan’s passing. I would like to see some content exploring this within the context of the Star Wars universe.
One could argue that giving into emotion killed him. For protecting Obi-One was his ultimate goal. A for that he risked his life in a one-on-one duel, knowing that he could lose. Yet the minimal chance of losing Obi-one, was only unphamable.
The main thing that I have learned about Star Wars by watching your videos is that every little thing has a story or a reason by it. And I mean the littlest of things.
Jinn was a throwback to the original Jedi teachings of obeying the force and not being involved in politics...the Jedi became complacent were destroyed to bring balance!✌️
I was really sorry the first time I ever saw Qui-Gon die in the Phantom Menace. Part of me at the time knew that their would be long term tragic consequences for the galaxy with his death.
@@tquasa07---yes. But that didn't stop me from feeling how I felt at the time. I knew where things were going to go. But not how. Which was something many didn't know either.
I had always felt like, as you put it, "the pendulum swung too hard." The chosen one one was supposed to bring balance to something that was already heavily stacked in Jedi favour. How much more balance did they want seems that the Sith were already hiding in the shadows.
I think that the force kinda left it up in the air wether he would die by Maul’s hand or not, but the outcome would end up more or less the same. I liked your fan story where if Qui Gon lived then the Jedi council would have rejected the chosen one, Anakin, and that would be the first domino in what would be the then Jedi orders fall as their previous held dogma would collapse in on itself while the wider galaxy went into chaos and rejected the Jedi order. Anakin would be trained isolated from the chaos but would also be informed by Qui Gon to understand the wider galaxies turmoil.
I would love to see discussed more about the balance of the living force, in the sense of the general population. How the galaxies census was like at the beginning of the phantom menace vs to the revenge of the sith, vs to the return of the Jedi. I would imagine even though the loss of life during the clone wars was incredible, the near two decades of relative peace saw the population booming. Idk just a fun thought experiment.
Personally, I think Qui-gon in that final moment knew the Force's Will. That he was to die so Anakin would fall, so the Jedi could be clensed of its corrupting dogma and made anew. And once it had been clensed it would then fall on Luke to bring Anakin back to the light so he could finish what he started. Qui-gon living may have allowed the defeat of Sidius much sooner, but A Corrupted Jedi Order has lead to the rise of some of the most terrible Sith Lords ever to exist from withen its own halls. Thus the scales needed to be completely reset on both sides to restore ballance.
Had Qui-Gon Jinn taken Anakin as his Padawan, Sidious would have sure made every effort to kill him ASAP. Anakin would have likely not only bonded to Qui-Gon as not only his Master, but as a father figure as well (Obi Wan probably had more of an older brother feel to him as his master). We know what Anakins response was to the death of his mother. Can you imagine his fall had he had to witness the death of his mother and father? I think it was pretty obvious from the end of 'The Phantom Menace' that Palpatine always had plans to take Anakin as his apprentice. There were only a handful of people that could have ever turned Anakin from the dark side. His mother, his children, his wife and i believe Qui-Gon. All were either killed, and im sure Sidious would have had them killed in time, if he thought they were obstacles toward his taking Anakin as his apprentice.
Obi-Wan was a reluctant father figure to Anakin, which Sidious exploited to turn him. Had Qui-Gon not died fighting Maul, Anakin would likely have been a more emotionally stable character. It’s interesting, Obi-Wan exhibited the same over-confidence and impatience as a Padawan that Anakin never really grew beyond, and yet Obi-Wan managed to mature despite losing his Master at a critical time in his life. For all Anakin saved Obi-Wan on multiple occasions in the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan completed the most important events in his journey on his own. With the exception of Anakin killing Dooku, who else can claim to have actually defeated as many Sith in single combat as Obi-Wan? That doesn’t even count Grievous. Imagine what Anakin could have achieved with the outstanding education that training under Qui-Gon gave Obi-Wan.
suppose you have a time traveler. they witness some cataclysmic event in the future caused by saving one individual. they travel back in time and help put things in place to prevent said cataclysm, which means allowing this individual to die. is the time traveler evil? cruel? no. no doubt they dont WANT the individual to die, but their death is the critical junction in the timeline. its a similar case here, except the time traveler is the force itself. the interesting thing is its often said "your life flashes before your eyes when you die". well, what if in the starwars universe force sensitives have a moment where they see all of it moments before they become one with the force. Qui-Gon would have been one of these. he was on a path to preserve himself within the force and, though incomplete, perhaps his limited training that the force had provided (either through study or general trials along his travels) was enough that he held on just long enough to tell Obiwan what he needed to do "train the boy". its my view that it wasn't the "will" of the force that he died but rather the only way forward. its his death that allowed Anikin to be trained, which he needed. though he would no doubt be more powerful if Qui-Gon left the order and trained him thats not what his destiny was about. if that had happened he would never topple the jedi order, nor the sith. he would never be put on the path that placed him where he needed to be. the "light" side of the force requires ballance of both the light and the dark. the darkside exists as an antithisis to this. its desire is to overshadow the light side. so it swung the pendulum too hard the opposite way. but none the less, its what needed to happen. and the catylyst of that was Qui-Gon's death. no matter how powerful he was, even a fully fledged Anikin would not be able to "ballance" the Jedi. it was only because of the clone troopers and order 66 that there was success in that. the Jedi order HAD to "die" and that could only happen from the inside out. the sith order HAD to die, and that could only happen from the inside out. if Qui-Gon had trained Anikin outside the order(s) he'd never be in the position he needed to be to topple both. it is this that Qui-Gon sees. in my opinion his look of shock isn't from the pain of the saber in him (no, that was a survivable injury with the medical tech on the SW universe). it was in that moment where the veil of life and death was thinnest for him that he saw what needed to happen. and so he surrendered himself. the force didn't betray him. it SHOWED him "this is the critical moment that will change the future". the force is a "force" of nature, but its not needlessly cruel. i have no doubt it would have shown him (with the veil fully lifted and clear) the events of the future up to and including Anikin's redemption in the end. it didn't lead him to his death. it showed it to him and its necessity. it was in that moment that Qui-Gon would then surrender to that; likely saying to himself within his mind "I accept what must be done". with that the future was secured.
If you seek answers, please reed the book of The Phantom Menace written by Terry Brooks. There you will find why Qui-Gon died. He was much older and weaker than Darrth Maul. Weak so much that he needed to sit down and meditate to recover his strength. Darth Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan too. He nearly killed him, but Obi-Wan was always a cunning warrior and intelligent, and it saved his life. His mind was sharp as a blade and acted fast but wise always. It is no shame to accept Qui-Gon as the weaker character. It is a fact and not a fiction written down in the novel. And Qui-Gon told Obi-Wan on Naboo, that he will be a greater Jedi than he ever could be. So in a way it was his own confession of his weakness. But Qui-Gon's death was a great loss to me as well. He is one of my favorite characters in Star Wars.
Qui-Gon Jinn followed the will of the Force as a jedi was supposed to. The force did not betray Qui-gon, but decided that his usefulness was served. His job was to find and get the chosen one to the jedi temple, and he did that.
A great video and a theory that matches up very nicely with the force both light and dark being at work not against each but together. We see this in the force guiding Luke in destroying the Death Star a device that tipped the scales to far for the darkside so the forced aided in this weapons destruction to help balance out the force. But this balance was needed as Anakin being trained by Qui Gon might have been a mistake. But the discovery of the chosen one might have been Qui Gon's ultimate mission for the force to simply find him not train him once Anakin was discovered and began using his force abilities in the Battle of Naboo Qui Gon was no longer needed.
I believe the death of Qui Gon was a win for the dark side, and not necessarily the force’s will. However it was the force’s will to have him continue to help Anakin balance the force. Because of this his training in becoming a force ghost becomes paramount. He still continued to steer the direction of the galaxy through his help of Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda after his death. All of this helped lead to the events causing Luke to be able to redeem Vader and allow Vader to destroy the Sith. Edit: grammar
I think its more liekly that Qui-gon died becasue of an outside interfiance from Maul. The Sith dont want to do the will of the force since they want to dominate it so they can be free, but the force still used the Sith to being about the fall of the Jedi. But because Qui-gon was not there to mentor Anakin and keep him away from the Clone Wars, when the switch that was Order 66 happened, the pendulum swung too far and needed to rebalanced. Had Qui-gon been Anakin's Master like the Force most likely wanted, so when Order 66 happened Anakin would have been in a better state of mind because of a more balanced Master. Many Jedi would have been killed but not all and Anakin would have defeated the Sith before the Deathstar could even be made. Most of Jedi would have been killed and the Inquisoters would now take the mantle of Sith without Palpatine. Restarting the back and forth infighting of the Jedi and Sith. This would be a great turnig point for the surviving Jedi who are willing to learn from failure (not so much for the stubborn ones) and see that being in one place and being tied down to a political structure held them back from doing their jobs the right way.
This made me wonder if Maul killed Qui-Gon just because or if Palpatine specifically told him to because Palps knew that Anakin wouldn't have fallen to the Dark Side otherwise
Funny thing is though, killing Qui-Gon risked the whole Separatist plot with Dooku falling apart. I know a good fic where certain factors compel the Jedi Council to tell Dooku the truth about Qui-Gon's death, meaning that not only Yaddle doesn't die, but Dooku literally becomes a full-time Sith hunter.
Yes cause he went rogue. Dooku was working with siddius at the time and he was working for siddius. When he told obi Wan about anakain he also told dooku. Dooku told siddius and siddius wanted anakin trained. That is why with or without the jedi councils' approval he told Obi wan "The boy must be trained' it was to balance the force in other words he knew anakin would turn dark and wanted to balance the force by destroying most of the jedi. That is why dooku deleted some system of planets off the archives so some jedi can survive so that the balance is in place. Qui gon was not a traitor but believed in the actual balance of the force he was no sith
The thingabout the Force that I think is often overlook is that what the Force wants isn't necessarily what's best for everyone in the galaxy. E.g. it wants "balance" but that "balance" has often lead to many deaths as many tyrants have risen because the Force wanted them to in order to balance out the peace and low amounts of darkness in the galaxy at the time. Sure, the Force also helps eliminate the people who bring darkness, but it was - as I said - also the Force that put them there.
I don’t feel that the force betrayed Qui Gon, more like the Sith denied Qui Gon his fate. The entire fight and the song Duel of The Fates is all about the fate of Anakin Skywalker. Will he be a true Jedi or fall to darkness? I believe the living force WANTED Qui Gon to train Anakin, but the Sith in general want to defy the force, bend it to their will. The Sith denied Qui Gon training Anakin to be the best Jedi he could. I also don’t believe the Jedi needed to be destroyed for balance. To be utterly and completely destroyed, driven to extinction is just the Sith once again defying the force
The Force gave Qui-Gon a limited vision of it's will, as Qui-Gon had his own biases on how to act. With Yoda the Force knew that he and the Jedi were locked in dogmatic views; the same with Palpatine. To break the deadlock, the Force allowed Qui-Gon to fall and Anakin/Vader to bring about the change it sought that resulted in balance. This is the lesson we never hear from either Force users like Jedi or Sith and only revealed by the Bendu. If the Jedi and Sith don't understand this, they will repeat this till the balance is maintained. The Bendu and grey Force users are at the fine point of utter balance; they are the pure teachers of the Force.
i recently began thinking that when he meditated during the maul fight, the force was saying "calm down old man, yoda can still ataru because he invigorates his aged body with the force", but he actually ignored the force & was having too much fun fighting. Even though he's one of my favorite characters.
Did the force betray Qui-Gon Jinn Jedi master? No it did not. And anybody who has an answer that’s different does not understand the living will of the force. Master Jinn understood it more than anybody else. I will say this it is still an unknown is Anakin Skywalker would’ve turned to the Darkside, he would’ve at least had to confront the darkness within himself in order to meet his destiny. I’d like to believe that he would’ve had more of a spiritual understanding of the force, had Jinn survived on Naboo. Qui-Gon Jinn understood this to a T. Had he survived the encounter on Naboo, he would’ve died 10 years later. Because it was the destiny and the will of the force.
To me, Qui Gon's philosophy resonates very deeply. I believe there is a natural flow of the universe and my ego is constantly wanting to fight against it out of fear. So it's how things should happen vs how i want them to happen.
Stupendous these vids are great you are by far the best Star Wars analysis I've been listening too. If you could, I and probably many other fans like your character history bios and power levels on obscure characters like Satelle Shan, if it's possible could you do a history bio and power analysis video on Ulic Qel-Droma the apprentice of Exar Kun and his journey from Sith Apprentice to redeemed Warrior. Yeah they are long but your long vids are great take care 🙂
I've had notice how his content has improved there was at a time he would reupload older videos over and over again and I didn't understand why he did it and I eventually stop going on his channel but then he has really step things up and that's great 😃.
@Adrian B I agree I've noticed that too that similar titles have the exact same questioned asked. But they have improved and one of my favorites on here is how Darth Plaguies The Wise would have been a terrible emperor. I wish we just had more of those long character profiles like he did with Satelle Shan and Arcann from the old republic, those were great deep dives into interesting characters
I feel the Force did not betray him but instructed Qui-gon during the fight especially during the pause between shield so I believe it was designed this way.
I don't think the force interferes that much... that physically into the actions of one person to guide the blade as you put it. The force user must use his training to see glimpses of the future to then guide his blade. I think Qui-gon died because he was just tired, you can see that he is quite slow at the end, and that punch he took that made his blade go back was just good skill from his enemy. The force will guide us, but it wont ever demand or interfere, that's free will. I believe at least. 🤔
If Qui Gon didn't die, Anakin wouldn't have turned and possibly been killed in order 66 along with the rest of the jedi. So i guess the force did want this go down exactly as it did
The light side of the force is the balance. It is the dark side that unbalances the force as it is a corruption of the force. I don't understand why so many stray from Lucas's interpretation.
The force cannot betray anyone, whatever the force decide is the right way and since Qui-Gon was submitted to the force totally anything that happened he agrees with it
I think it's plausible. But I think it was more the machinations of Sidious knowing that if Qui-Gon were to train Anikin, he'd be too level-headed to manipulate and twist.
You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. Remember that Sith bend the force to their will instead of blindly submitting to its control the way the Jedi do. The Force may well have steered Qui Gon to discover and train the chosen one, but, if so, the will of the Force was overridden by Maul during his duel with Qui Gon. The Force did not allow Qui Gon to die. It just couldn’t save him from a Sith assassin. I also think you over estimate the intent of the Force. Yes, it is described has having a will of its own, but it is not described as consciously making plans. If the Force was a conscious entity then the Jedi would worship it as a God instead of studying it as a mystery. The ability of the Force to transcend time may give it the impression of dictating the destiny of others, but that is an illusion. In reality the Force is an unconscious and reactive element. It is more beast than God.
Normally, I really don't disagree with you, but I really feel Qui-Gon would have trained Anakin more gray. He was always in hot water with the council and probably would not have been granted true permission to train Anakin as he saw fit. I see Qui-Gon and Anakin leaving the Jedi, a common Trope with Qui-Gon, to teach him to find balance within the force, to utilize compassion and love as Luke later does with his flock. Qui-Gon understood the power of love in the force. Obi-Wan is often Hallmarked as the perfect Jedi as the Jedi stood at the time, him training Anakin ensured this outcome, even if Anakin hadn't turned.
There is no death there is only the force. He reached the end of his mortal journey and began the next phase. There was no betrayal. To quote Yoda, luminous beings are we not this crude matter.
I have to wonder how true that might be (at least in legends) the Sith through the force out of balance and while it was trying to re-balance itself with creating Anakin I have to wonder letting Qui-Gon die was in fact not part of its plan which is why things slowly went down hill because he was a linchpin for events to go well and re-balance itself and maybe restore the Jedi to who they were meant to be (sorry this was so damn long)
If Qui-Gon submitted so utterly to the force, then I don't think it can be considered betrayal. Same as how religious people IRL accept the will of God and know that their deaths will come, even as they continue to serve Him.
I haven’t watched the video fully yet. But I personally believe that Qui Gon wasn’t betrayed by the Force. Because I believe there wasn’t one person prophesied to bring balance to the force but two. In order for the force to be balanced there must be both light and dark. Meaning Anakin, despite falling to the dark, was only following the will of the force. In that Luke would bring the final blow into bringing balance once again. Qui Gon was meant to die, so he could allow Obi Wan and Yoda to do their part.
It's not betrayal, it's how things operate; people quite often don't see the bigger picture, and often only think of a small group of people they care about. But don't go beyond that. His approach is very much like traditional indigenous peoples' spiritual guides. Around here we call them medicine people, or someone carries medicine. Lets Spirit guide them
I don’t necessarily think the force wanted qui gon to die. The force wants balance but I don’t think it has as much control over situations as people think. I think it wanted qui gon to train anakin. I think if qui gon had defeated maul then the Jedi would’ve rejected anakin from the order, and qui gon would’ve taken anakin to a far off planet to train him. Sidious would still execute his plan and I think either his new apprentice or he himself would storm the temple during order 66 and wipe out the Jedi. Then anakin and qui gon would confront sidious and qui gon would likely die but anakin would kill sidious and start his own order. Maul killing qui gon changed everything. I think the force obviously wanted the sith gone but I think it also wanted the jedi gone too. At the end of the day I think it is a little harsh for them to be wiped out like they were, but how else were they going to see the error of their ways? If anakin stays in the light and defeats sidious the jedi would never change
I dont think the force wanted the sith gone. It punished Plaguies but not Sidious. Sidious only perverted the force when he executed order 66. It was just before that where he lost his face. So the force only lashes back when someone attempts to use it blatantly for their own gain. But the Jedi used it for their own gain as well for many many years during the clone wars , which is why the force abandoned them during order 66. Cus they were offensively pursuing and partaking in an unjust misguided war. Sidious took advantage of their eagerness to run into war to his own advantage by getting them to abandon their own values. The force abandoned Sidious when he killed those people with an interplanetary weapon in an attempt to pervert and turn their suffering to his own benefit. It rewards as well, it gave back Kanan his eyesight when he sacrificed himself selflessly.
Following this line of reasoning, it is very clear for me that the Force also let Qui-Gon die because he would discover a way to communicate with the living beings by being a Force ghost. That would make sense because Force ghosts get an important role in the rest of the saga.
I know the Force is suppose to control everything, but sometimes sh** happens for no logical reason. That's how life is. If Anakin became a better Jedi under Qui-Gon's teachings, he could've worked his way to being on the counsel and maybe even Grandmaster and guide the Jedi on the true nature of the force.
Yeah, the force probably lead him to make a move that allowed Maul to kill him, keeping in mind it needed to happen in order to put the force back into balance.
I always interpreted from the movies, that the sith go against the will of the force, and may at times even overcome it. Qui-gon's death i took as a major perversion of the intended flow of history.
Qui gon died because the force willed it, because qui gon was meant to be the Jedi to train yoda how to become a force ghost, and that was a very important thing for the Jedi to relearn how to do
exactly he completed his Mission everything that happened post the meddling of Plagious was crafted by the force to fight back against his meddling Qui Gon's role in this was to learn how to become a Force Ghost so he could teach Yoda and Obi Wan very important things
@@scottmcmichael319 it also ties into why Obi Wan defeated Anakin on Mustafar before the fight Obi Wan had mediated deeply achieving an incredible sense of calm in the force he went into that fight not afraid of anything not afraid to die and solely focused on one thing stopping Anakin Anakin on the other hand was very much afraid of failing and not being able to protect Padme in the end Obi Wan emerged victorious in Obi Wans final duel he had the same calm approach the moment Luke saw them dueling and Obi Wan saw him it became clear to him that he had fulfilled his role and his final move was to let Luke watch him get Cut down to A give the Rebels enough time to escape B so Luke could witness himself how dangerous Vader is and how seriously he needs to take this
You know I never thought about it like that. But kind of. I mean no not really. It's up to the Jedi to be able to focus on two things at the same time. Shoot many things at the same time. What kind of focus does it take to do a handstand with Yoda on your foot. Lifting multiple rocks. And when force users turn up the juice. Meaning they really start to concentrate. The force responds accordingly. And that's how you get visions of the future. You got to turn up the juice.! And at that point it's the Jedi's responsibility. To be able to handle it. And you better f****** believe Qui-Gon was turning up the juice against Darth Maul. So no. If Qui-Gon was distracted. It was because he wasn't focusing enough. I mean correct me if I'm wrong. But I do believe. "Your focus determines your reality." So I mean come on. The only one to blame here is Qui-Gon. Yes he could have been thrown off by seeing the future of Darth Vader. Instead of Anakin. Which is why he wanted Obi-Wan to train him. So that he would turn out good. He wouldn't have had a very clear picture of that future. Otherwise he would have said make sure the boys never trained. Or he foursaw that Anakin does eventually defeat the emperor. And so the ends justify the means I guess. 🤷 So trying to see all of that process it and deal with it. While fighting Darth maul. With a full body.! Yeah that's understandable. I mean because if you think about it. There is really no reason Qui-Gon should have been defeated outright like that. It's only based off of who his primary master was.! So it does make sense that he would have had to have been very distracted in order to lose. And a real quick glimpse of Anakin's future could definitely do that.
If we assume it was the force that killed him, then it wasnt a betrayal at all. He took the role freely and knew that his death for the greater good was an option. Even Obi-Wan and the rest of the council agreee, they would gladly cut sown any other member of the council if it would end the war a single day sooner, and they would all offer their life to end it a single day sooner. All, that is, except for Anakin, whos views on the Force and the universe at large are vastly different to what the Jedi generally believe in.
This sounds pretty creepy and surprising. But it's possible. Qui-Gon saw something while meditating. This makes sense. Look everything what happened. May the Force be with you too. Have a nice day too :)
Probably knew that no one on the council could beat Maul's master Sidious. Mauls was already more powerful than most of the order so by Any estimate Sidious would match Yoda Dooku and Windu. But Sidious had the benefit of surprise and preparation just like Maul. So he concluded that the only way to beat sidious would be for Anakin to turn on him and pair with another light side user to beat him.
@@supermoto9799 yes Maul was powerful than most on the Council. He was killing machine basically. No one could beat Sidious. Yoda's duel with him ended in stalemate. I agree with the latter too
Kreia is peering over the fence on this one. The problem with the force is that if it needs you to die or suffer for its idea of some nebulous greater good, you will.
I love this comment. I've recently watched a lot of videos about the Sith trio, so this comment hits home to me
Yeah, The Force is kind of a dick and Kreia was right to hate it. Thing is, I'm convinced that Qui-gon could have been the only Jedi Master who could have trained an Anakin Skywalker who would NOT fall to the Dark Side. That is why he needed to die. I think The Force wanted the old Jedi Order gone so a better one could eventually take its place so Anakin never had a choice. He was destined to fall and suffer as Darth Vader, all those Jedi were destined to die, even the younglings. The Force, in its never ending attempt to achieve balance doomed so many good people by throwing Qui-gon under the bus. The "will of The Force" is such a horrible concept when you stop and think about it. Anakin went from war hero to child killer in an instant because that was the will of The Force, like that. It's absolutely not his fault. Meanwhile, heroic actions like Han Solo saving Luke at the end of A New Hope are also not merits. Both Anakin and Han were just puppets of The Force.
I mean the force punishes evil but it needed to ensure it’s plan b of yoda and Luke or leia was in effect to ensure the siths defeat. The sith had been spreading war and suffering in secret for a while now weakening an already complacent Jedi order and blinding them to the sith. So it made an anakin to correct the sith and Jedi problem and restore light and peace. Unfortunately as the sith killed or sabotaged his relationships and the Jedi were no help the force likely foresaw he could fail and made plan b. When the stakes are trillions of innocent lives then you do what’s necessary to ensure peace and the least amount of suffering in total. The only moral grey I believe in is evil born out of necessity when Ther is no better seeable alternative so the force kinda had to be a dick considering the stakes. Think of it as “ God works in mysterious ways” as how the force works as if qui-fin lives and anakin failed plan b couldn’t work but plan a could work without quo-gin there to help, it had the most likely best outcome if he died. Kreia’s fault was not seeing necessary evil and mistaking the force for being cruel, heartless or callous when really it’s just trying to minimize suffering and evil.
Well, Kreia is right in a sense that Force is the greatest evil in SW universe. Sensitivity to the Force is often given to totally undeserving beings, Force is a main motivator for all the wars and suffering. And, as is it is shown in this example, Force will betray you in the end. Another great mind ( Darth Plagueis) said that Force should be made beast of burden, but never a ruler over Sith.
@@aleksazunjic9672 no being starts out undeserving only becoming so through actions and choices. The force corrects those choices by guiding those who are deserving in redeeming or vanquishing the undeserving. If it was truly a great evil it simply wouldn’t care. The force is usually bright if dark grey at worst. And for all we know qui-gon could have been intended to live. He said his training was incomplete if it was why would the force let him die. Him dying was likely a spanner in the works for both plan a and b. And no the force couldn’t just save qui-gon as Han said “that’s not how the force works” which is hopefully the only quote I’ll ever use from the sequels. The force isn’t Omni-potent just powerful and uses power in subtle ways.
There is no Light
Without the Dark,
Through Passion
I gain Focus,
Through Knowledge
I gain Power,
Through Serenity
I gain Strength,
Through Victory
I gain Harmony,
There is only THE FORCE.
through passion i gain focus. that right there tells you that a true master understands the dark side, doesn't shun it
I had thought that the force wanted him to be a force ghost to help train Yoda and open his eyes to what was going on as well as what was spoken about in this program. I thought that they needed him as a ghost to be a guide to help bring along the balance.
plus for Ankin to restore balance; unfortunately, Vader was the way and the only real way (at the time) to temporarily remove the emperor. I think the Force is simply trying to draw the best straws with all the strain from the darkside and the Sith's manipulations (throughout time)
That makes no sense at all. Why would Qui-Gon need to train Yoda when Yoda has been training Jedi for centuries?
Because Yoda (and the rest of the order) were not truly following the will of the force leading to their ultimate destruction. So Qui Gon as a ghost helped Yoda to realize that and train Luke differently in the future.
I don't think the Force betrayed him, rather the Force used him to test the Jedi. Ultimately they failed and the penalty was not only Qui Gon's death but the eventual annihilation of the Jedi.
It's ironic the Jedi order would butt heads with a member that truly followed the Jedi way and unquestionably submitted themselves to the will of the force.
@@gerald8543 Qui-Gon did not truly follow the Jedi way because his presumption shows in various scenes, one of which he decided on his own judgement to train Anakin and that Obi-Wan was ready for the trials, nvm mind the fact that it wasn't his decision to make. Qui Gon fanboys say these things because he butted heads with the council, even though he clearly had his own character flaws.
Not the Republic's Jedi Way, that's why he bumped heads. He believed in and follow the will of the force. What even is The Jedi way, but the one Yoda reveals and later adopts after hindsight and realizing the flaws of the Republic Era Jedi order, and Luke attempts to re start. To follow the will of the force. Was everything that happened and happens not the will of the force? His "presumptions"
The force was simply tired of doing all the thinking for him, and chose self thinking conservatives over mindless liberals
@@decepticonxhunter4850 Qui-Gon followed the true Jedi way, not the corrupted version we see in the prequels. That's what we mean.
Granted I think Darth Maul's account/thoughts of the battle run counter to this. He said that he knew he was going to lose because of how powerful Qui-Gon Jinn was and that he felt the force was in favor of Qui-Gonn and so Darth Maul had to resort to "the dirty trick".
I think it where because Maul knew Obi-wan was on his way, so he needed to finish it quickly
Maul would obviously think it was about him and his dirty trick, because that falls into the philosophy of the Sith being about them and their own power. However, it could be that was just his perception of the Living Will of the Force guiding the fight.(?)
What was the “dirty trick” ?
@@hawk66100Hitting Qui Gon in the face with the hilt of his saber, stunning him. It was thought to be a cowardly move
@@HughToob if Maul was really that prideful he wouldnt have even acknowledged what he did as a "dirty trick" and just say he beat Qui-Gon because he was the superior fighter.
I think Qui-Gon simply accepted his end. He was very devout to the force, one of simply following their intuition and better better inclinations.
Being that the Jedi of the time were very dogmatic and controlling, it's not surprising something as dynamic as the force would powerfully correct. Then realizing it underestimated its own efficiency.
The Jedi order was too dogmatic, which I firmly believe that had they not been so dogmatic and controlling, the order might have survived....
I think the the Force actually gave the Jedi severall warnings and hints on how to course correct, the problem is that the Jedi ignored them. Anakin might've been orignially meant to rally the Jedi against Sidious and bring them back to the true way and an Anakin trained by Qui-Gon might've been simply to passive to do that. By alienating Anakin, falling into every trap set by Sidious and refusing to realise that they had lost their, Anakin turned from a saviour to a destroy and than got broken into a mere tool of the darkside.
Qui Gon Jinn is hands down my favorite Jedi of Jedi. I love his character even more than Luke and Kenobi. For this very reason, by the age of the Republic, he was perhaps the only true Jedi left that embodied what the order really meant. I also like the idea that Luke supposedly used Qui Gon's Kyber crystal for his lightsaber.
He was the reason I say that TPM was the best of the three movies for me. It had its goofy moments, but he carries the movie and brings a soul to it that nobody else in the series could.
Kreia was right in a sense that Force is the greatest evil in SW universe. Sensitivity to the Force is often given to totally undeserving beings, Force is a main motivator for all the wars and suffering. And, as is it is shown in this example, Force will betray you in the end. Another great mind ( Darth Plagueis) said that Force should be made beast of burden, but never a ruler over Sith. This is actually true for any Force user.
As a religious person, that kind of thinking disturbs me--though you are entitled to your opinion, of course.
How does it make any sense to judge something that is almost by its premise beyond human/sentient understanding, by our standards? The whole idea of the "problem of evil" vis a vis the Epicurean Paradox is flawed for one basic reason: Where do our notions of "good" and "evil" come from? If God created us, I think He also gets the credit for any ideas we attribute to ourselves.
We can't even judge animals' actions by our own moral codes, and nobody's saying they transcend our understanding!
@@EthanKironus8067 Well, it is not beyond human understanding. To quote Jesus :"You Will Know Them by Their Fruits". Thus, in Christianity even God himself says that humans have ability to distinguish between good and evil. And what are the fruits of the Force ? For the most part - wars , Star Wars.
@@aleksazunjic9672 I don't see any indication that we're meant to evaluate God with that logic.
As for Star Wars specifically, the force itself isn't conducting any of those wars. Let alone that there are plenty of warmongerers in the SW universe (er, galaxy) who lack any meaningful connection with the force--i.e. the Mandalorians, they had their whole culture before the Darksaber was ever built.
P.S. I know Star Wars is fictional. It's the way that arguments that the force is negative can be used against real-life religions that bother me.
P.P.S. Considering Kreia's "solution" to the force would have killed significant numbers of people, I'm not inclined to trust her conceptions of good and evil. Her role in forcing introspection is 'good', though.
P.P.P.S. If we talk Darth Caedus (not naming him by real name for anyone concerned about Legends novel spoilers), he fell to the dark side because he grew arrogant of his own virtues after a moment of absolute oneness with the force. That was his response to the force, not the force itself.
@@EthanKironus8067 In Christianity, gift of the fruit of good and evil (knowledge of good and evil) is final. Even God cannot change it, except by destroying humans. Implications of this are enormous, as even God gets judged - that is the main point of crucifixion of Jesus . However, in SW universe things are much simpler. Force is not a God, it is not even source of life. It is mostly just a parasitic entity. And yes, Force IS the source of most of the conflicts in SW universe, including genocidal wars. Non-Force sensitives like Mandalorians are comparatively small fry. Without Sith to lead them, they would simply be crushed by more industrialized and bigger opponents. Mandalorians are simply Mongol horde of the SW universe. Dangerous, but eventually defeated. As for real life - religions are mostly criticized as being false (i.e there is no God, but humans still kill each other in his name). In SW universe Force is real, but is simply not a God, or even positive entity. As for Kreia solution, it is not a real solution, just a glimpse of it. We could say that separating parasite from the host often damages the host, but it is beneficial in long term.
@@EthanKironus8067
You are taking the Force too seriously, son. No one is judging God, but a fictional entity loosely alledgedly based on a few Earthan philosophies.
Qui Gon needed to become one with the Force.
He believed in the will of the Force.
Living and Cosmic.
He had to teach Yoda and Obi Wan. So they could in turn teach Luke.
The Jedi were doomed.
They had brought imbalance to the Force by their religious doctrine. And being puppets of the Republic.
And ultimately Palpatine.
The Force was imbalanced long before the Sith’s return.
Great video.
May the Force be with you…always!
I think this whole thing was a certain point of viewing things. The Force led Qui-Gon to a small room so the acrobatics of Ataru would not serve him and Maul's trick would ultimately kill him but if Qui-Gon did not die then he could not become one with the Force and teach Yoda the Force Ghost ability during the Clone Wars. He'd be too busy as a general and not able to guide Yoda to that planet.
If anything it would have given him time to perfect becoming a force ghost and he would have trained anakin. I seriously doubt he would have been a general in the war too because he's not being misled like the jedi were
He probably wouldn't be a general. Also Anakin would've had the perfect teacher/ father of he lived. He wouldn't be palatine's apprentice, and order 66 could've possibly been avoided. Doku might not have even left the order and put even more dampers on palatine's plans
He wouldn't be a general because he was already old during TPM I think he was 60, AOTC happens at least 10 years after TPM so Anakin might have gone to war with OBI instead because Qui-Gon would have been too old.
Dagobah was where Yoda was from stupid
@@ronanwaring3408 Yoda was 900 and he went to war
You're looking at these individual events as their own, unique, "bring balance to the force" event, which didn't work out so another "bring balance to the force" event had to happen, but I think that is a mistake. The entire event, starting with Anakin and ending with Luke as the last "jedi", though not really a Jedi in the previous sense, was that event. Anakin was destined to bring balance, which he did, by turning to the dark side, having a son both redeem him (something the Jedi dogma said could not happen) and face down the most evil and powerful man in the galaxy. He had none of the Jedi's dogmatic organizational failings and knew better than anyone that nobody was above redemption in the force. Wiping out the Sith was not going to bring balance. Luke reset everything and that was the will of the force.
That's what's so disappointing with the last trilogy and their handling of Luke. Luke earned incorruptible status and it's a disservice to the character to act like he'd run away from his failings. The last Jedi should have been Luke, not running from his failures, but out exploring, trying to understand the will of the force, the light, the dark, the middle, and whether restarting the jedi order was to blame for it all happening, seemingly, again. Looking for something to show his nephew the true path. That's why he wouldn't train her, why "the jedi have to die", etc. So much wasted potential...
in his case i doubt the force would need to betray him - if anything he would accept anything the force presented to him as it is - if it wihed him to die he would accept it if anything the force had a plan for Qui-gon thus it lead him on a certain path - if that path required him dying then so be it and he would be okay with this.
This is important. Throughout the video he describes the Force as "betraying" Qui-Gon, yet the way Qui-Gon believed in the Force would suggest that, as you said, he would willingly accept death if the Force needed it from it.
The death of a father is a powerful thing. Obi-Wan had to step up because of it, and so did Luke in the original with Obi-Wan’s passing. I would like to see some content exploring this within the context of the Star Wars universe.
The force did not betray him, It wanted him home!
That's a very good way of looking at it.
But if So that means Anakin
Exactly.
So.... This is a lot like people saying that God wanted that cancer kid to come home...
@@Myke_thehuman God is good 🙏
One could argue that giving into emotion killed him. For protecting Obi-One was his ultimate goal. A for that he risked his life in a one-on-one duel, knowing that he could lose. Yet the minimal chance of losing Obi-one, was only unphamable.
The main thing that I have learned about Star Wars by watching your videos is that every little thing has a story or a reason by it. And I mean the littlest of things.
Jinn was a throwback to the original Jedi teachings of obeying the force and not being involved in politics...the Jedi became complacent were destroyed to bring balance!✌️
Even though qui won jinn wasn't as powerful as yoda and windu he had greater understanding of it
oh 100% he literally taught Yoda how to ascend into a Force Ghost and taught Obi Wan
I was really sorry the first time I ever saw Qui-Gon die in the Phantom Menace. Part of me at the time knew that their would be long term tragic consequences for the galaxy with his death.
Were you aware of IV-VI when you first saw TPM?
@@tquasa07---yes. But that didn't stop me from feeling how I felt at the time. I knew where things were going to go. But not how. Which was something many didn't know either.
His death was no surprise to me then. Not the kind of actor to be in multiple SW movies at the time.
@@HBLW1975---Everyone has their own way of looking at it. Thanks for responding.
Yeah, it's not like Palpatine wasn't already using Dooku to overthrow the Republic while Qui-Gon was alive or anything
The force doesn't betray anyone it only balances out the scales as is necessary.
I had always felt like, as you put it, "the pendulum swung too hard." The chosen one one was supposed to bring balance to something that was already heavily stacked in Jedi favour. How much more balance did they want seems that the Sith were already hiding in the shadows.
I think that the force kinda left it up in the air wether he would die by Maul’s hand or not, but the outcome would end up more or less the same.
I liked your fan story where if Qui Gon lived then the Jedi council would have rejected the chosen one, Anakin, and that would be the first domino in what would be the then Jedi orders fall as their previous held dogma would collapse in on itself while the wider galaxy went into chaos and rejected the Jedi order. Anakin would be trained isolated from the chaos but would also be informed by Qui Gon to understand the wider galaxies turmoil.
I would love to see discussed more about the balance of the living force, in the sense of the general population. How the galaxies census was like at the beginning of the phantom menace vs to the revenge of the sith, vs to the return of the Jedi. I would imagine even though the loss of life during the clone wars was incredible, the near two decades of relative peace saw the population booming. Idk just a fun thought experiment.
Personally, I think Qui-gon in that final moment knew the Force's Will. That he was to die so Anakin would fall, so the Jedi could be clensed of its corrupting dogma and made anew. And once it had been clensed it would then fall on Luke to bring Anakin back to the light so he could finish what he started.
Qui-gon living may have allowed the defeat of Sidius much sooner, but A Corrupted Jedi Order has lead to the rise of some of the most terrible Sith Lords ever to exist from withen its own halls.
Thus the scales needed to be completely reset on both sides to restore ballance.
Too bad Disney took a massive shit on all this
@@Irken_Invader_Zim What are you talking about? Disney only ever made Rouge One and that Baby Yoda series. How did they mess up the old lore? /Sarc
Had Qui-Gon Jinn taken Anakin as his Padawan, Sidious would have sure made every effort to kill him ASAP. Anakin would have likely not only bonded to Qui-Gon as not only his Master, but as a father figure as well (Obi Wan probably had more of an older brother feel to him as his master). We know what Anakins response was to the death of his mother. Can you imagine his fall had he had to witness the death of his mother and father? I think it was pretty obvious from the end of 'The Phantom Menace' that Palpatine always had plans to take Anakin as his apprentice. There were only a handful of people that could have ever turned Anakin from the dark side. His mother, his children, his wife and i believe Qui-Gon. All were either killed, and im sure Sidious would have had them killed in time, if he thought they were obstacles toward his taking Anakin as his apprentice.
I want an animated series following Qui Gonn. I have liked his character the second I saw him on screen.
I would like to see Qui Gon Jinn as a younger man before phantom Menace maybe him training to become a Jedi and other adventures.
Imagine a game like that? altho we can't trust any studio with such an honor, but if it was made like Kreia's games, it would have been amazing.
Obi-Wan was a reluctant father figure to Anakin, which Sidious exploited to turn him. Had Qui-Gon not died fighting Maul, Anakin would likely have been a more emotionally stable character. It’s interesting, Obi-Wan exhibited the same over-confidence and impatience as a Padawan that Anakin never really grew beyond, and yet Obi-Wan managed to mature despite losing his Master at a critical time in his life. For all Anakin saved Obi-Wan on multiple occasions in the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan completed the most important events in his journey on his own. With the exception of Anakin killing Dooku, who else can claim to have actually defeated as many Sith in single combat as Obi-Wan? That doesn’t even count Grievous. Imagine what Anakin could have achieved with the outstanding education that training under Qui-Gon gave Obi-Wan.
suppose you have a time traveler. they witness some cataclysmic event in the future caused by saving one individual. they travel back in time and help put things in place to prevent said cataclysm, which means allowing this individual to die. is the time traveler evil? cruel? no. no doubt they dont WANT the individual to die, but their death is the critical junction in the timeline. its a similar case here, except the time traveler is the force itself.
the interesting thing is its often said "your life flashes before your eyes when you die". well, what if in the starwars universe force sensitives have a moment where they see all of it moments before they become one with the force. Qui-Gon would have been one of these. he was on a path to preserve himself within the force and, though incomplete, perhaps his limited training that the force had provided (either through study or general trials along his travels) was enough that he held on just long enough to tell Obiwan what he needed to do "train the boy". its my view that it wasn't the "will" of the force that he died but rather the only way forward. its his death that allowed Anikin to be trained, which he needed. though he would no doubt be more powerful if Qui-Gon left the order and trained him thats not what his destiny was about. if that had happened he would never topple the jedi order, nor the sith. he would never be put on the path that placed him where he needed to be. the "light" side of the force requires ballance of both the light and the dark. the darkside exists as an antithisis to this. its desire is to overshadow the light side. so it swung the pendulum too hard the opposite way. but none the less, its what needed to happen. and the catylyst of that was Qui-Gon's death. no matter how powerful he was, even a fully fledged Anikin would not be able to "ballance" the Jedi. it was only because of the clone troopers and order 66 that there was success in that. the Jedi order HAD to "die" and that could only happen from the inside out. the sith order HAD to die, and that could only happen from the inside out. if Qui-Gon had trained Anikin outside the order(s) he'd never be in the position he needed to be to topple both.
it is this that Qui-Gon sees. in my opinion his look of shock isn't from the pain of the saber in him (no, that was a survivable injury with the medical tech on the SW universe). it was in that moment where the veil of life and death was thinnest for him that he saw what needed to happen. and so he surrendered himself. the force didn't betray him. it SHOWED him "this is the critical moment that will change the future". the force is a "force" of nature, but its not needlessly cruel. i have no doubt it would have shown him (with the veil fully lifted and clear) the events of the future up to and including Anikin's redemption in the end. it didn't lead him to his death. it showed it to him and its necessity. it was in that moment that Qui-Gon would then surrender to that; likely saying to himself within his mind "I accept what must be done". with that the future was secured.
This is one of the best videos you have ever done.
If you seek answers, please reed the book of The Phantom Menace written by Terry Brooks. There you will find why Qui-Gon died. He was much older and weaker than Darrth Maul. Weak so much that he needed to sit down and meditate to recover his strength. Darth Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan too. He nearly killed him, but Obi-Wan was always a cunning warrior and intelligent, and it saved his life. His mind was sharp as a blade and acted fast but wise always. It is no shame to accept Qui-Gon as the weaker character. It is a fact and not a fiction written down in the novel. And Qui-Gon told Obi-Wan on Naboo, that he will be a greater Jedi than he ever could be. So in a way it was his own confession of his weakness. But Qui-Gon's death was a great loss to me as well. He is one of my favorite characters in Star Wars.
Qui-Gon Jinn followed the will of the Force as a jedi was supposed to. The force did not betray Qui-gon, but decided that his usefulness was served. His job was to find and get the chosen one to the jedi temple, and he did that.
A great video and a theory that matches up very nicely with the force both light and dark being at work not against each but together. We see this in the force guiding Luke in destroying the Death Star a device that tipped the scales to far for the darkside so the forced aided in this weapons destruction to help balance out the force. But this balance was needed as Anakin being trained by Qui Gon might have been a mistake. But the discovery of the chosen one might have been Qui Gon's ultimate mission for the force to simply find him not train him once Anakin was discovered and began using his force abilities in the Battle of Naboo Qui Gon was no longer needed.
I believe the death of Qui Gon was a win for the dark side, and not necessarily the force’s will. However it was the force’s will to have him continue to help Anakin balance the force. Because of this his training in becoming a force ghost becomes paramount. He still continued to steer the direction of the galaxy through his help of Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda after his death. All of this helped lead to the events causing Luke to be able to redeem Vader and allow Vader to destroy the Sith.
Edit: grammar
The force: you've yee'd your last haw
I think it’s wild Liam Neeson used to be a teacher way back in the day and got fired for hitting a kid if I remember correctly😂
I think the Force knew that Qui Gon would serve a greater purpose as a Force Ghost than he would’ve in an aging and eventually decaying body.
I think its more liekly that Qui-gon died becasue of an outside interfiance from Maul.
The Sith dont want to do the will of the force since they want to dominate it so they can be free, but the force still used the Sith to being about the fall of the Jedi.
But because Qui-gon was not there to mentor Anakin and keep him away from the Clone Wars, when the switch that was Order 66 happened, the pendulum swung too far and needed to rebalanced.
Had Qui-gon been Anakin's Master like the Force most likely wanted, so when Order 66 happened Anakin would have been in a better state of mind because of a more balanced Master. Many Jedi would have been killed but not all and Anakin would have defeated the Sith before the Deathstar could even be made.
Most of Jedi would have been killed and the Inquisoters would now take the mantle of Sith without Palpatine.
Restarting the back and forth infighting of the Jedi and Sith.
This would be a great turnig point for the surviving Jedi who are willing to learn from failure (not so much for the stubborn ones) and see that being in one place and being tied down to a political structure held them back from doing their jobs the right way.
Honestly we need a Qiu-gon jinn series about his and obi wan's time together
This made me wonder if Maul killed Qui-Gon just because or if Palpatine specifically told him to because Palps knew that Anakin wouldn't have fallen to the Dark Side otherwise
Funny thing is though, killing Qui-Gon risked the whole Separatist plot with Dooku falling apart. I know a good fic where certain factors compel the Jedi Council to tell Dooku the truth about Qui-Gon's death, meaning that not only Yaddle doesn't die, but Dooku literally becomes a full-time Sith hunter.
I believe Qui-Gon would not have fought in the Clone Wars and would have left the Jedi and would have attempted to take Anakin with him.
Yes cause he went rogue. Dooku was working with siddius at the time and he was working for siddius. When he told obi Wan about anakain he also told dooku. Dooku told siddius and siddius wanted anakin trained. That is why with or without the jedi councils' approval he told Obi wan "The boy must be trained' it was to balance the force in other words he knew anakin would turn dark and wanted to balance the force by destroying most of the jedi. That is why dooku deleted some system of planets off the archives so some jedi can survive so that the balance is in place. Qui gon was not a traitor but believed in the actual balance of the force he was no sith
The thingabout the Force that I think is often overlook is that what the Force wants isn't necessarily what's best for everyone in the galaxy.
E.g. it wants "balance" but that "balance" has often lead to many deaths as many tyrants have risen because the Force wanted them to in order to balance out the peace and low amounts of darkness in the galaxy at the time.
Sure, the Force also helps eliminate the people who bring darkness, but it was - as I said - also the Force that put them there.
Interesting, so Thanos is an agent of the force.
Bruh I’m not gonna lie. I love your intros I love your Star Warsesk approach.
I don’t feel that the force betrayed Qui Gon, more like the Sith denied Qui Gon his fate. The entire fight and the song Duel of The Fates is all about the fate of Anakin Skywalker. Will he be a true Jedi or fall to darkness? I believe the living force WANTED Qui Gon to train Anakin, but the Sith in general want to defy the force, bend it to their will. The Sith denied Qui Gon training Anakin to be the best Jedi he could. I also don’t believe the Jedi needed to be destroyed for balance. To be utterly and completely destroyed, driven to extinction is just the Sith once again defying the force
I never thought of it that way. I was so heartbroken when Qui-Gon died
I love how much of Starwar's force translates into the real world.
This was a very deep concept to think about. Very intriguing topic and I really enjoyed the video thank you
Kreia somewhere in the galaxy going
"What did i say"
I hadn't realized that Qui Gong was that insane.
The Force gave Qui-Gon a limited vision of it's will, as Qui-Gon had his own biases on how to act. With Yoda the Force knew that he and the Jedi were locked in dogmatic views; the same with Palpatine. To break the deadlock, the Force allowed Qui-Gon to fall and Anakin/Vader to bring about the change it sought that resulted in balance. This is the lesson we never hear from either Force users like Jedi or Sith and only revealed by the Bendu. If the Jedi and Sith don't understand this, they will repeat this till the balance is maintained. The Bendu and grey Force users are at the fine point of utter balance; they are the pure teachers of the Force.
I’ve never even thought of this you got a new subscriber amazing content
i recently began thinking that when he meditated during the maul fight, the force was saying "calm down old man, yoda can still ataru because he invigorates his aged body with the force", but he actually ignored the force & was having too much fun fighting. Even though he's one of my favorite characters.
Have 2say your BY FAR the BEST STAR WARS CHANNEL ON TUBE!!!💪👍🥳🙏
I know the force exists because I was gonna search for one of your Qui Gon vids and I open up UA-cam to a new one
Did the force betray Qui-Gon Jinn Jedi master? No it did not. And anybody who has an answer that’s different does not understand the living will of the force.
Master Jinn understood it more than anybody else. I will say this it is still an unknown is Anakin Skywalker would’ve turned to the Darkside, he would’ve at least had to confront the darkness within himself in order to meet his destiny. I’d like to believe that he would’ve had more of a spiritual understanding of the force, had Jinn survived on Naboo. Qui-Gon Jinn understood this to a T. Had he survived the encounter on Naboo, he would’ve died 10 years later. Because it was the destiny and the will of the force.
To me, Qui Gon's philosophy resonates very deeply. I believe there is a natural flow of the universe and my ego is constantly wanting to fight against it out of fear. So it's how things should happen vs how i want them to happen.
Stupendous these vids are great you are by far the best Star Wars analysis I've been listening too. If you could, I and probably many other fans like your character history bios and power levels on obscure characters like Satelle Shan, if it's possible could you do a history bio and power analysis video on Ulic Qel-Droma the apprentice of Exar Kun and his journey from Sith Apprentice to redeemed Warrior. Yeah they are long but your long vids are great take care 🙂
I've had notice how his content has improved there was at a time he would reupload older videos over and over again and I didn't understand why he did it and I eventually stop going on his channel but then he has really step things up and that's great 😃.
@Adrian B I agree I've noticed that too that similar titles have the exact same questioned asked. But they have improved and one of my favorites on here is how Darth Plaguies The Wise would have been a terrible emperor. I wish we just had more of those long character profiles like he did with Satelle Shan and Arcann from the old republic, those were great deep dives into interesting characters
I feel the Force did not betray him but instructed Qui-gon during the fight especially during the pause between shield so I believe it was designed this way.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Which is why I absolutely force crushed that subscribe button.
I don't think the force interferes that much... that physically into the actions of one person to guide the blade as you put it. The force user must use his training to see glimpses of the future to then guide his blade. I think Qui-gon died because he was just tired, you can see that he is quite slow at the end, and that punch he took that made his blade go back was just good skill from his enemy. The force will guide us, but it wont ever demand or interfere, that's free will. I believe at least. 🤔
Listening to this video kind of makes wish that Qui Gon had had an encounter with Bendu. I feel that those two would have had a lot to talk about.
Qui-Gon was like a father to all of us to bad he die in ep1
Good video, but I was confused with the footage cutting in and out, some with Star Wars and some with some other random movies
If Qui Gon didn't die, Anakin wouldn't have turned and possibly been killed in order 66 along with the rest of the jedi. So i guess the force did want this go down exactly as it did
May The Force be with us All!!! 😎✊👊🍁
Thanks. This was great!
The light side of the force is the balance. It is the dark side that unbalances the force as it is a corruption of the force. I don't understand why so many stray from Lucas's interpretation.
It is the will of the force that guides my finger over the like button lol
The force cannot betray anyone, whatever the force decide is the right way and since Qui-Gon was submitted to the force totally anything that happened he agrees with it
"There is No Death..." and Qui-Gon knew.
this has been an issue for me morally since I was a child thank you so much!
I would like to see a video about Obi-Wan in the Melida/Daan civil war, where Qui-Gon abandon or left him for Tahl.
I think it's plausible.
But I think it was more the machinations of Sidious knowing that if Qui-Gon were to train Anikin, he'd be too level-headed to manipulate and twist.
You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. Remember that Sith bend the force to their will instead of blindly submitting to its control the way the Jedi do. The Force may well have steered Qui Gon to discover and train the chosen one, but, if so, the will of the Force was overridden by Maul during his duel with Qui Gon. The Force did not allow Qui Gon to die. It just couldn’t save him from a Sith assassin.
I also think you over estimate the intent of the Force. Yes, it is described has having a will of its own, but it is not described as consciously making plans. If the Force was a conscious entity then the Jedi would worship it as a God instead of studying it as a mystery. The ability of the Force to transcend time may give it the impression of dictating the destiny of others, but that is an illusion. In reality the Force is an unconscious and reactive element. It is more beast than God.
Normally, I really don't disagree with you, but I really feel Qui-Gon would have trained Anakin more gray. He was always in hot water with the council and probably would not have been granted true permission to train Anakin as he saw fit. I see Qui-Gon and Anakin leaving the Jedi, a common Trope with Qui-Gon, to teach him to find balance within the force, to utilize compassion and love as Luke later does with his flock. Qui-Gon understood the power of love in the force. Obi-Wan is often Hallmarked as the perfect Jedi as the Jedi stood at the time, him training Anakin ensured this outcome, even if Anakin hadn't turned.
Well I’m that light it makes Qui-gon the ultimate soldier.
There is no death there is only the force. He reached the end of his mortal journey and began the next phase. There was no betrayal. To quote Yoda, luminous beings are we not this crude matter.
I have to wonder how true that might be (at least in legends) the Sith through the force out of balance and while it was trying to re-balance itself with creating Anakin I have to wonder letting Qui-Gon die was in fact not part of its plan which is why things slowly went down hill because he was a linchpin for events to go well and re-balance itself and maybe restore the Jedi to who they were meant to be (sorry this was so damn long)
Qui-Gon's death was absolutely the will of the force.
If Qui-Gon submitted so utterly to the force, then I don't think it can be considered betrayal. Same as how religious people IRL accept the will of God and know that their deaths will come, even as they continue to serve Him.
If the Force didn’t want so many Jedi, wouldn’t it have just stopped making Force-sensitive people?
I haven’t watched the video fully yet. But I personally believe that Qui Gon wasn’t betrayed by the Force. Because I believe there wasn’t one person prophesied to bring balance to the force but two. In order for the force to be balanced there must be both light and dark. Meaning Anakin, despite falling to the dark, was only following the will of the force. In that Luke would bring the final blow into bringing balance once again. Qui Gon was meant to die, so he could allow Obi Wan and Yoda to do their part.
It's not betrayal, it's how things operate; people quite often don't see the bigger picture, and often only think of a small group of people they care about. But don't go beyond that. His approach is very much like traditional indigenous peoples' spiritual guides. Around here we call them medicine people, or someone carries medicine. Lets Spirit guide them
So the force is the protagonist, the antagonist and the spectator
I don’t necessarily think the force wanted qui gon to die. The force wants balance but I don’t think it has as much control over situations as people think. I think it wanted qui gon to train anakin. I think if qui gon had defeated maul then the Jedi would’ve rejected anakin from the order, and qui gon would’ve taken anakin to a far off planet to train him. Sidious would still execute his plan and I think either his new apprentice or he himself would storm the temple during order 66 and wipe out the Jedi. Then anakin and qui gon would confront sidious and qui gon would likely die but anakin would kill sidious and start his own order. Maul killing qui gon changed everything. I think the force obviously wanted the sith gone but I think it also wanted the jedi gone too. At the end of the day I think it is a little harsh for them to be wiped out like they were, but how else were they going to see the error of their ways? If anakin stays in the light and defeats sidious the jedi would never change
I dont think the force wanted the sith gone. It punished Plaguies but not Sidious. Sidious only perverted the force when he executed order 66.
It was just before that where he lost his face.
So the force only lashes back when someone attempts to use it blatantly for their own gain.
But the Jedi used it for their own gain as well for many many years during the clone wars , which is why the force abandoned them during order 66. Cus they were offensively pursuing and partaking in an unjust misguided war.
Sidious took advantage of their eagerness to run into war to his own advantage by getting them to abandon their own values.
The force abandoned Sidious when he killed those people with an interplanetary weapon in an attempt to pervert and turn their suffering to his own benefit.
It rewards as well, it gave back Kanan his eyesight when he sacrificed himself selflessly.
Following this line of reasoning, it is very clear for me that the Force also let Qui-Gon die because he would discover a way to communicate with the living beings by being a Force ghost. That would make sense because Force ghosts get an important role in the rest of the saga.
Great video
Considering the soundtrack for the battle is called The Duel of Fate, I'm not so sure if the Force wanted Qui-Gon to die.
He was meant to die so Anakin would bring balance. Ala Dr strange
I know the Force is suppose to control everything, but sometimes sh** happens for no logical reason. That's how life is. If Anakin became a better Jedi under Qui-Gon's teachings, he could've worked his way to being on the counsel and maybe even Grandmaster and guide the Jedi on the true nature of the force.
QuiGon was the only Jedi that was contemporaneous to Anakin that was capable of training Anakin into an unshakable Jedi
Yeah, the force probably lead him to make a move that allowed Maul to kill him, keeping in mind it needed to happen in order to put the force back into balance.
I always interpreted from the movies, that the sith go against the will of the force, and may at times even overcome it. Qui-gon's death i took as a major perversion of the intended flow of history.
Qui gon died because the force willed it, because qui gon was meant to be the Jedi to train yoda how to become a force ghost, and that was a very important thing for the Jedi to relearn how to do
exactly he completed his Mission everything that happened post the meddling of Plagious was crafted by the force to fight back against his meddling Qui Gon's role in this was to learn how to become a Force Ghost so he could teach Yoda and Obi Wan very important things
@@kurtpunchesthings2411 exactly especially to teach to Luke later on so Luke could overcome his fear of death
@@scottmcmichael319 it also ties into why Obi Wan defeated Anakin on Mustafar
before the fight Obi Wan had mediated deeply achieving an incredible sense of calm in the force he went into that fight not afraid of anything not afraid to die and solely focused on one thing stopping Anakin
Anakin on the other hand was very much afraid of failing and not being able to protect Padme in the end Obi Wan emerged victorious
in Obi Wans final duel he had the same calm approach the moment Luke saw them dueling and Obi Wan saw him it became clear to him that he had fulfilled his role and his final move was to let Luke watch him get Cut down to
A give the Rebels enough time to escape
B so Luke could witness himself how dangerous Vader is and how seriously he needs to take this
For shure my fav Jedi.
You know I never thought about it like that. But kind of. I mean no not really. It's up to the Jedi to be able to focus on two things at the same time.
Shoot many things at the same time. What kind of focus does it take to do a handstand with Yoda on your foot. Lifting multiple rocks.
And when force users turn up the juice. Meaning they really start to concentrate. The force responds accordingly. And that's how you get visions of the future.
You got to turn up the juice.! And at that point it's the Jedi's responsibility. To be able to handle it.
And you better f****** believe Qui-Gon was turning up the juice against Darth Maul.
So no. If Qui-Gon was distracted. It was because he wasn't focusing enough.
I mean correct me if I'm wrong. But I do believe.
"Your focus determines your reality."
So I mean come on. The only one to blame here is Qui-Gon. Yes he could have been thrown off by seeing the future of Darth Vader. Instead of Anakin. Which is why he wanted Obi-Wan to train him. So that he would turn out good.
He wouldn't have had a very clear picture of that future. Otherwise he would have said make sure the boys never trained.
Or he foursaw that Anakin does eventually defeat the emperor. And so the ends justify the means I guess. 🤷
So trying to see all of that process it and deal with it. While fighting Darth maul. With a full body.!
Yeah that's understandable. I mean because if you think about it. There is really no reason Qui-Gon should have been defeated outright like that. It's only based off of who his primary master was.!
So it does make sense that he would have had to have been very distracted in order to lose.
And a real quick glimpse of Anakin's future could definitely do that.
the og living on the edge
If we assume it was the force that killed him, then it wasnt a betrayal at all.
He took the role freely and knew that his death for the greater good was an option.
Even Obi-Wan and the rest of the council agreee, they would gladly cut sown any other member of the council if it would end the war a single day sooner, and they would all offer their life to end it a single day sooner.
All, that is, except for Anakin, whos views on the Force and the universe at large are vastly different to what the Jedi generally believe in.
This sounds pretty creepy and surprising. But it's possible. Qui-Gon saw something while meditating. This makes sense. Look everything what happened. May the Force be with you too. Have a nice day too :)
Probably knew that no one on the council could beat Maul's master Sidious. Mauls was already more powerful than most of the order so by Any estimate Sidious would match Yoda Dooku and Windu.
But Sidious had the benefit of surprise and preparation just like Maul.
So he concluded that the only way to beat sidious would be for Anakin to turn on him and pair with another light side user to beat him.
@@supermoto9799 yes Maul was powerful than most on the Council. He was killing machine basically. No one could beat Sidious. Yoda's duel with him ended in stalemate. I agree with the latter too