I'm a divergent thinker (late-diagnosed ADHD-C at age 46). I'm also a creative. Creativity requires BOTH divergent and convergent thinking and also the ability to apply them appropriately for different stages of the creative process. Having an impairment in convergent thinking as well as difficulty applying behaviours and skills (when needed... not according to my feelings or mood) has meant that my creativity could only go so far. Thank you Dr Russell Barkley for continually clarifying the disorder. There is so much clutter and confusion out there, its nice to hear some succinct, no-frills talking (especially for those of us struggling with ADHD.... we're confused and cluttered enough).
Thanks once again. A couple of observations: firstly, I believe both people with ADHD and those without have an interest in finding something positive about the condition. Those with ADHD are looking for compensations for the condition which turns their lives into a series of missed opportunities and self inflicted crises. Those without ADHD can look for reasons to avoid the overhead of compassion and the bothersome need to make allowances and grant accommodations. So the idea of ADHD giving benefits can be congruent for both groups. Secondly on a personal level: Colleagues have noted I'm good at coming up with ideas. My ability to prioritise these ideas, to develop and follow through on them is a different matter. IF I have higher levels of creativity, through intelligence, disinhibition or whatever, it isn't actually benefitting me much, except for short term activities. As an engineer I troubleshoot machinery. It's both a divergent process, identifying what could be a problem, and a convergent process, looking for evidence to confirm or eliminate possibilities. I'm pretty good at both, and it's how I make a living. From an ADHD perspective these situations are ... A. Often novel, I don't know what the problem will be, so there is an element of discovery. B. Urgent. There is an element of pressure form the client. C. Rewarding. There is a positive emotional payoff if I am a clever boy and solve the problem. For longer term things where enjoying the fruits of creativity needs hard graft, it's more of a struggle.
Thank you Dr. Barkley. This is so informative, insightful and “counterintuitive” to the common misbeliefs. Personally I don’t see higher levels of creativity on me, on the contrary, I loathe my lack of creativity. This is probably and mostly attributable to my higher degree of ADHD. I can also confirm that the only times I am considered to be creative are those when being impulsive, however, those impulsive moments sadly translate more to problems and my shame, than to creativities! 😭
Just to add on to this....personally it's refreshing to hear as this notion that as someone with adhd I should be creative just gave me another reason to see myself as broken.
@@tomh5094 just so you know everyone on the planet earth that is human is broken just cause you don’t see it or it’s different from yours doesn’t mean that yours is any worse than anyone else’s it’s called inherited sin we all inherited imperfection from our parents and whether it’s in one form or another We all need to work on something.
Jeezus FINALLY I’ve found an adhd channel with someone who’s intelligent, educated, and gets right to the friggin point without subjecting us to their life story! 🤘🏽
I greatly appreciate Dr. Barkley, especially how he can differentiate "trade literature" from scholarly scientific comprehensive analysis and research. Much appreciated!
I was concerned that medication would affect my creativity. I asked my psychiatrist: 'This won't turn me into an accountant will it?!?'. She laughed and said 'No, if it did that, I'd be taking it'. And I can confirm that Xaggitin XL (same as Concerta XL) DID NOT inhibit my creativity but DID mean I was better able to complete and discern tasks whether or not I found them boring. People also misunderstand creativity and, in particular, choosing to make a living creatively. Every professional creative role demands some degree of executive functioning, organisation and cataloguing/maintenance of work and tools, selling your work/skill. For me, ADHD has been a huge impairment in these areas and as such, I have constantly missed opportunities and potential in my career path as a graphic designer (which is a creative field that also demands discipline. We are, after all, trying to design systems to make information clearer and easily accessible). I was really good at coming up with an original idea (albeit at the last minute) but struggled to carry it through. I think that confirms that ADHD is not a superpower, nor does it pre-dispose or predict what areas you might have a natural leaning towards (I guess that stuff is influenced and determined by other parts of the brain). When I go to ADHD meetup groups. We all come from different career backgrounds, different talents, interests and education but we feel a connection to each other and camaraderie by our ADHD and the struggles and upheavals the symptoms cause in our lives.
Another designer (and multipassionate creator) here, I agree with everything. It's really difficult to explain to people who are not in a creative career that in order to become successful (and not just a talented dilettante), we absolutely need to be conscientious and responsible. So many colleagues of mine destroyed their reputation because they didn't follow through. Clients don't like handing over money and not hearing from a designer for weeks or even months! Concerta didn't affect my creativity negatively at all. It helps me wake up, clear my head, and get to work will less faffing about. I'm more efficient in my paid work, so I have more free time to paint, write, make videos... It supports my creativity in the best way possible. And yes, I'm still able to think outside the box. That's a "muscle" I've been training my entire life, it's not going to get hampered by medication.
@@NelaDunato yes, the medication is kind of like putting glasses on for us. I feel much calmer when I take it because I can see what I need to do and actually get it done. I do need other interventions (coaching, occupational therapy) as well though, to help with executive functions and structuring. Something I noticed that makes my ADHD more extreme is alcohol (which is a depressant and people use it to relax). I get very hyper very quickly and almost manic. Having a drink is not relaxing at all for me.
@@NelaDunato Also, I liked your word 'multipassionate'. I feel that way too. And it won't just be in my specialised area, I'm interested in too many things! On the one hand, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think intrigue and curiosity is an amazing part of being human. But, with ADHD it's hard to turn any of that into something useful because before you've mastered and completed something, you're already buying all the books, kit and courses for something else that caught your attention (hence... the hobby graveyard ) . 🙄
I think we need a study specifically focused on late diagnosed women. Because there is a huge group of people are not medically diagnosed until their life is a mess. It is shocking when you're super intelligent and talented but not even able to do basic daily tasks. Maybe professionals should dig into that "high adhd traits" group because we work so hard to stay unimpaired until the point of burnout. And that's when we're officially diagnosable in our 30s. Average diagnose age for women with ADHD was 37 when I last checked. So until that age they *appear* not ADHD.
Did I really "appear not ADHD" while I was flunking out of high school and college? Apparently so, since I wasn't diagnosed until my 30's. It must be because of my creativity. Or my gender. Yes, I was hiding the ADHD inside my vagina. That's it.
Gained a lot of nuanced insights from this video! Never knew there could be more factors at play when finding out the relation of creativity with someone who has adhd. This is just my anecdotal experience: I’m often told that I’m creative but too lazy to start doing said creative ideas. From my perspective, I don’t think about creativity. What really happens from my pov is I’m trying so hard to eliminate external problems that could potentially be additional distractions to my already fast, crowded, & disorganized mind. Sometimes this results in solutions, but sometimes I just end up wasting time being “efficient”
HI Dr Barkley, I am really getting a lot out of your videos. I keep thinking for myself especially these things like creativity, productivity, being somewhat entrepreneurial work really well when working in a team with other people who have complimentary skills of being more detail oriented, making sure admin gets done, create deadlines etc. I notice a lot of successful ADHD creatives have a business partner who can make sure things don't go off the rails.
I'm having trouble with the idea that someone with high symptom ratings is automatically presumed not to have the disorder and lack any impairment. This seems to overlook barriers to diagnosis, especially for certain demographics, like girls and adults. If someone has high ratings of ADHD symptoms, they probably DO suffer impairment, and were *forced* to practice creative problem-solving in the *absence* of clinical treatment. For 30 years, I would have fallen into this category, until finally finding a provider who didn't invalidate me point blank. Not one provider besides my current one ever actually assessed me, *even when they themselves suggested ADHD* as an explanation for my struggles. Yes, this really happened, and not just to me. Many of my friends who also struggled and suffered well into adulthood, like me, were ignored or dismissed without assessment, and, like me, were eventually diagnosed in their 30's. The timing is notable, because this didn't coincide with their symptoms getting worse, but with them getting better, because they came off more "composed" in their reports and were no longer perceived as "drug-seeking" by their providers. I have been advised, by my own providers, that if a doctor suspects that I WANT an ADHD assessment, I won't get one, especially if I'm around college age (finally old enough to seek medical treatment for the problems my parents ignored out of social stigma.) I have been told that if I want treatment for my ADHD, I have to play dumb, avoid mentioning ADHD, go along with every misdiagnosis and ineffective solution, and even lie about their efficacy, until ADHD is the last explanation they have available. I didn't do this, not only because my impulsivity makes me a bad liar, but because I couldn't. I couldn't stay composed so consistently. I was raised by people who not only lacked faith in the medical system, but believed ADHD was only diagnosed to sell drugs. This isn't exactly uncommon. They would have believed Jordan Peterson in a heartbeat because his narrative has always been popular. There are a shocking number of parents out there who think doctors invented ADHD to drug their kids, and on top of that, there are a shocking number of doctors who think patients are *usually* faking ADHD to get drugs. This chronic disbelief in ADHD creates an environment where many of us with extreme clinical impairment are kicked to the curb, not in spite of our impairment, but /because of it./ For someone who acknowledges the inadequacies of the DSM-5's diagnostic criteria of ADHD, under-served demographics, and barriers to clinical treatment, I'm shocked to see you disregard people with ***HIGH*** ratings for ADHD symptoms as "not impaired." If they rate their symptoms highly, Dr. Russ, they're probably so highly impaired that they come off as desperate while reporting it... and are therefore denied clinical treatment. In this case, it may be you who is "worse than wrong," and I feel like it's a moral failure if I don't tell you about it. Surely, you can reconsider your biases better than Jordan.
I scored in the top 1% for divergent thinking a few yrs ago. Very adhd. I wound up emailing the psychologist and he said the most divergent thinking capable tend to be professional poker players.
I was diagnosed with ADHD a little under a year ago at age 58, and started on methylphenidate immediately. I have achieved a lot of success in the creative field, but because of undiagnosed and therefore unmedicated ADHD, I didn't have my shit together, and screwed up, basically. It's very difficult to fully succeed as a creative person if you have phobias about the duller side of it; paperwork, accounting, marketing, etc, even if you have an agent. So at 58, my creativity is baked in, and the meds enable me to tackle the things you previously feared and tried to ignore. They also enable you to 'get down to business' creatively more easily. Another feature of ADHD is self-doubt and chronic perfectionism which are nearly always unhelpful, and the medication eases these symptoms in an incredibly beneficial way. I think there is probably a higher percentage of ADHD in creative people than 'regular' people, but often that creativity is squandered because of the difficulties ADHD brings in other, less fun, but important areas.
Hey Dr Barkley, love the content, great video as always! I had an idea to make the content a bit more accessible, especially with the longer form videos that go on for 30+ minutes. TIMESTAMPS!!!!! There is a feature you can use while making the video to add timestamps to each individual section, to break it up into smaller chunks, that people can refer back to or watch again. Would be a great help for us ADHDers
Fascinating! It would be interesting to know if treating pathological ADHD (inhibited creativity) with medication could move you along the inverted U-curve to a more optimal point and in fact increase your creativity.
Thank you Dr Barkely this is fascinating stuff to hear. I obviously have so many thoughts, and feel inhibited now, which often leads me to my intuitive thought, and mostly ends well for me and helps gain further insight to myself and others, specifically in my work with ADHD peopel on that note. Just my thoughts in brief if I can, I wonder should we change the language,and define creativity. Many take the term creative as a skill of art and beautiful appreciated results. Ive always thought it meant to think outside the box, to share the ideas and be brave about them for the better good! Adhd people have racing thoughts and struggle to keep up with them, and feel excited and some of the problem solving issues they work on, and may express them through a project they are working on , this is humanistic and different, and possibly creating solutions we have not figured out yet..faster than a divergent person, I believe it is a different type of creativity!
hi doc- congrats on your lengthy success with now ending newsletter (for want).. i was hatched in 1971, san francisco, and being female, awfully lucky to be "seen" as a child of potential talents and creativity and being a heady spazz. my folks were playing in the dregs of the summer of love and so weren't on top of involving sending me to GATE, putting me on meds...more of a diet-driven interest from them= coffee and wheat bread. i skipped a grade. was separated in class, did calculus for extra credit in 6th grade and then i turned totally dumb. had to repeat pre-algebra in high school, twice. ha! could be the hormones, which i have always maintained is the issue, since i've had abdominal cancers 3x over my 20s to now...i got hurt at work in 2009 and after going through workman's comp i was urged to try out for disability. i took an i.q, test and got a 91. my psych was surprised. not me, though. surviving socially means being an award-winning mimic , so maybe artful in that respect but a lot depended on my surroundings and luckily san francsico had tons of cool things and folks. ideas i have are really cool and i tend to be somewhat in the zeitgeist, so it's hard to find help to carry them through b/c it's not time for them yet. my psyche is listed as body part number one by way of disability and my life is just becoming more and more hijacked by adhd, et.al. wonder if anyone can relate to used to have it, dont have it no more and pleasse help me maintain a relationship of any kind. is why i write, but also to thank you for making all this info somewhat understandable and all your time ( and your colleagues) in doing so. post script+ my most creative time was when i was on effexor and cocaine. no doubt about it. been clean for 15 years, but drugs really helped, i guess, amplify the inhibitions i already had. jesus. ciggies, too, were satisfying. meh.
This one's always struck me as being a red herring. I think it got a lot of coverage here on UA-cam and on other social media platforms because people were desperate to find something positive to say about ADHD and so it got dumped in there with hyper-focus as being a 'benefit' of the disorder. Given what we know about ADHD thanks to experts like yourself, it never made sense to me that we'd be any more creative than the next person.
Thank you Dr. Barkley! I love your humor! Old people in flannel! This is such a gift for you to share your evidence based scientific research with us and your humor! Thanks again!
I'm a person with ADHD and have a creative side myself, but I do find the observations intriguing. Maybe there will be more findings regarding this relationship? but only time tells us.
Could you make an “adhd and sugar” or “adhd and diet” bc that’s mentioned sooo often, sometimes up to the point that diet alone is claimed to be able to manage it completely. So yea 😂 that would be great.
It's always confused me when others with ADHD talk about being more creative, because I feel like I can never come up with anything creative at all. I can make the occassional witty comment, or discuss possibilities of things existing in nature based on evidence and science, but if I'm attempting to make something new, it feels like my mind goes entirely blank. It's basically the only time my brain shuts up, and it makes me feel disfunctional.
People with ADHD develop coping strategies -it requires a lot of creativity to live and survive with this type of impairment, I think that there are thousands of seemingly coping ,,clowns'' who learnt making fun of their ,,inadequacies'', the cost of it is terrible but this strategy allows to live ,,next to'' your problem. Was ADHD problem of Robin Williams? They say it was, if it is true he would be the best example of what I am talking about.
I am about to do an MSc in Psychology and I want to study the prevalence of ADHD symptoms in Music University students in the UK (rock and pop). And these studies will be super useful! My theory is not necessarily that ADHD makes people more creative necessarily- however that those who go towards creative fields especially in a pop setting might be higher prevalence of challenging ADHD symptoms. This is something I’ve anecdotally experienced as a performer and lecturer in music for many years. I got diagnosed at 27 and it was enlightening.
I think different things get conflated - I think someone with clinical adhd may have high creative potential and may deeply struggle to express that creativity in a concrete or ‘expressed’ way - I don’t think people are creative because they have adhd. I think having adhd is living life with perpetual brakes on - trying to move forward in life with deficient executive function is laborious and exhausting. Trying to put a positive spin on that just doesn’t help (in my view :) Thank you for all your work Dr. Barkley 🙏💛
I am really perseverative, before being medicated I had really low problem solving abilities and capacity to adapt to new situations. But because of my constant need for stimulation I read a lot and reading, learning, I find new ways to solve problems.
I love that you are doing this and breaking it down. I wish EVERYONE had access, understood the controls, what measures are best, and all the biases that take place in scientific peer reviewed articles. I'm so sick of everyone reading a news article and believing it all. I have adhd and didn't know many say they do better at certain things, I second guess myself all the time. Also, impulsivity as a way to make you more creative was a rather odd theory to me. I studied psychopaths and psychopathy. Their impulse control is not wonderful... and the same area in the frontal lobe seem to be at play. I am horrible at APA format but "Joseph p. Newman" spoke of the frontal lobe and executive functioning. I could only think of one thing, I tend to be able to use items as tools in various ways and that's due to my constant stream of rapid thoughts.
I feel like there is a lot to unpack on this topic. Firstly the kind of creativity we are talking about (and whether it’s really possible to measure creativity in a scientific way). Even if ADHD does give you higher levels of divergent thinking (I think it’s pretty clear convergent thinking is impaired) there is still the problem that people with ADHD often lack follow through so it’s still a disability (unless they can collaborate with people who do have follow through). Secondly the problem of differentiation between high levels of ADHD traits and diagnostic ADHD. There seems to be a bit of a “no true Scotsman” argument regarding ADHD such as “no true person with clinical ADHD can be successful”. But I think the problem is that you can really really struggle with ADHD and still get results, either through compensating methods, sheer luck or intelligence. There are still a lot of clinicians out there with a very old fashion view of ADHD that’ll refuse to diagnose you with ADHD if, say, you passed high school with a decent GPA. I can see how it’s tempting to look at something like that and say “well it’s clearly not a hindrance” but often in reality it’s impacting so many other aspects of their life, maybe they had no social life because that had set aside huge blocks of time to study because they knew they were going to procrastinate. Or maybe they stressed themselves into a state of anxiety and depression because they did everything last minute. Not every clinician is on the same page with ADHD and I wonder if that is taken into account when talking about what constitutes a clinical case of ADHD.
I was diagnosed with ADHD at 49(about to be 50)... but also PTSD and still awaiting on a psychiatrist referral for whatever else my brain might be dealing with. Although I have ADHD(Severe combined type with impulse control issues being the most difficult to battle), I also believe I would be on the autism spectrum(Can see many symptoms in my grandmother on my mother's side, as well as my mother and one sister). My brain seems to have a particular strength in problem solving by using mathematical probability, which is how I seem to make every decision(Weighing outcomes vs consequences and likelihood of facing said consequences... Impulse control is the kryptonite to Autistic brains it seems). I have high anxiety, but my anxiety is probably rooted in my need to control my ADHD through organization. When unable to organize my thoughts, I become very anxious to regain control. Feeling like a slave to impulse issues my brain throws a fit because I also have a deep need to have control(Stubborn beyond words as a response to not having my impulse issues under control?). We all are on a spectrum of some sort, but it's fascinating to feel so different and misunderstood when so many of us are similar.
I'm so creative I often suffer from mental constipation 😂 But hey, it made me realize why I do things in a certain way why doing stuff even with proper instructions is often so exhausting.
The irony here is that ADHD people with high iq mostly go undiagnosed until their 30s, especially women. Maybe because we have "less" ADHD or because we learn to mask our symptoms. Therefore I'm not sure if these studies are able to correctly measure creativity on all ADHD population since you excluded the most creative group. Interestingly those undiagnosed people mostly work on creative professions such as artists, designers, musicians and actors.
This. It probably excludes more successful ADHDers. As if to say that ADHD and inability to succeed and blend in are one and the same. Does this mean that we are “less” ADHD? I doubt it… Or possibly that we are more creative and that overcomes some of our ADHD? I am a creative professional and wasn’t diagnosed until my late 20s. I had many symptoms my entire life (when looking back) and extremely high IQ, but no one would have ever guessed I had ADHD. It would be interesting to see a study with ADHD adults who escaped detection until when the delayed development of ADHD should begin or should have “leveled off”.
I have ADHD and am told i am creative both in the problem solving way and the artsy fartsy way, but really my memory is just so bad i approach everything like its the first time and have to do a lifetimes worth of experimenting all at once instead of just calling on past experiences. I think anyone who has a different brain than the majority will seem creative because their thoughts go down paths that are less traveled. But those thoughts are not more creative than anyone else, its just more unique.
Can you do a video carefully explaining differences between ADHD and disorganized schizophrenia? Always the most grotesquely exaggerated/incomprehensible examples are used to show a clear distance of the latter from the former, but I think there's much more overlap in neural circuits than lends the eye. Added difficulty is that medications which could help organize the thought process in disorganized schizophrenia, could serve to bring out otherwise transient hallucinations at baseline. Would love to see more discussion on this.
College students as you say are bound to be more creative anyway - a critical confound in these studies. They likely come from families with access to enrichment activities and culture.
Anyway, I just found some creativity test online, it uses brick like he said, so it must be close, scored better than average, but I would say like 25% of questions actually have something to do with creativity, rest of them are nonsensical, like you grading yourself for being something, which makes no sense. one of the items it rates you on is persistence, which in my case, you guessed it, was just a fraction below average. I think maybe us with adhd think of these words as something else to normal ppl, like how he uses phrase "inner voice" to mean "ability to tell your self to do something" and we think "the constant insatiable prattle that won't let me sleep, eat, ever walk alone and so on"
Interesting stuff thank you for your contribution to everyone's understanding. My divergent thinking is above average but damn I'm slow in processing power. Anything I can do to maybe bump up my numbers in that world?
I can’t give personal advice but off loading any working memory requirements onto other devices, including paper, journals, or other low tech solutions help people keep complex information organized and in front of them so they can process its relations better.
Thanks a lot for this video. I would consider myself highly creative (late-diagnosed ADHD at age 39). In my high school students I can see a big variety of creative skills. Those who are medicated or in therapy show a higher level than those who are not. My theory is that those who remain untreated need more brain power to cope with their ADHD than those who are treated. What are your thoughts on this?
On your final slide/point: Certainly if you are impaired from ADHD you will score lower on any test. Even when considering goal oriented creativity, a testing environment is structured and not necessarily conducive to the ADHD brain's creative process. Honestly, if the test isn't interesting then it definitely isn't conducive to ADHD creativity. Would you rate someone's reading level lower because they were too bored by a text to read quickly? Or too distracted? Test scores may fluctuate but I think its a misinterpretation to say otherwise stable aspects of a person like reading comprehension, deductive reasoning, or creativity change with your level of focus.
I wonder if emotional dysregulation also has an impact on empathizing or generating ideas. the relationship between sensitivity and creativity in its artistic form, or if its just unrelated to adhd
My personal perspective: Inattentive ADHD is characterized by the default mode network running inappropriately often, such as when boring but important tasks are at hand. The default mode network is inherently creative though. It chews on problems or amuses itself with daydreams. So does ADHD improve creative ability? No. But are you more creative? Well, your brain creates more, so by most laymen definitions, yes. Additionally, it has far more to work with because of hyperfocus. How many wikipedia binges are stored in your head? I have a lot in mine. I spent 6 hours the other night looking up copepods in relation to mosquito control. Is this relevant to my work or personal life? Only in as much as I live in south Louisiana and its been raining. When my brain has to cast a net for solutions, its not only less selective, but there is a lot more to get caught in the net. Oh, and yes, I do find that the meds make me less creative, in as much as mindwandering is inhibited. Its like a child wandering in the woods occasionally bringing back something it found. Usually unimportant, rarely relevant, and often of questionable usefulness. But only questionable. My unmedicated brain gets random ideas for hobby projects or D&D characters or stories. If the project seems like a good idea, it might get made. If the D&D idea comes at a time when I am actually playing, it may get used. Otherwise, it gets chewed on and then forgotten. Sometimes it floats back to the surface later on, often it doesn't. Occasionally the thought becomes my brain's favorite chew toy for half a year or more. All of this is just not how normal people think. Their train of thought has rails and a destination. Mine is a hot air balloon. If it gets where it needs to go it isn't without some sightseeing along the way and often an errant wind takes it someplace unexpected. Is my inability to get to a destination in a timely manner a dysfunction? Yes. But is my inherent ability to effortlessly sightsee a strength? Also yes.
I sure as hell am not creative in the artistic sense but I am an idea man and will throw out a bunch of potential solutions even if it is a bit dumb until something sticks haha. My coworkers get annoyed sometimes due to my persistence that it could work until something is pointed out and makes me realize that particular one will not work and then I go off again haha. It works half the time when tried and half the time it is more work than it needed to be. Hindsight sucks sometimes lol. Does this count as creative?
I have a question, I am a patient who take medication for bipolar disorder(not really diagnosed), so I take white football-shaped xanax(which is very mild), a half piece of quetiapine(which is very small, but I think it’s very strong effect), and flourscence yellow risperidone(which is increased after the event that I can’t talk in common places). I think my maniac symptoms are fairly controlled with risperidone, however I felt that my creativity is kinda impaired after strengthening medication.(I think it’s due to lack of dopamine, but it’s fair enough trade off since I didn’t suffer from exhaustion, mania, anger) What that means that, I can’t take NDRI since it causes maniac. But I think I have some adhd symptoms - especially for executive function, I think without meditation(not medication) I can’t deal with my college coursework enough. I have several question, 1. It is possible to have adhd and mania together? 2. If those two are contradicting, how can I deal with my executing function?(such as taking SNRI rather than SSRI)
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:25 🎯 *ADHD and its association with creativity discussed by Russ Barkley.* - Russ Barkley delves into the widely reported claim about ADHD being linked to elevated creativity. - Divergent vs. convergent creativity definitions and their implications. - ADHD's connection to executive functioning and its potential impact on creativity. 02:45 📚 *Literature review on ADHD and creativity from various studies.* - Review of the 2008 ADHD report by Julia Rutledge and Dion Healy on creativity. - Distinction between studies using clinical ADHD criteria versus just elevated symptoms. - Controversies and inconsistencies in the literature regarding ADHD's relationship with creativity. 07:39 📊 *Meta-analysis findings on Psychopathology, including ADHD, and creativity.* - Analysis of 89 studies focusing on ADHD, anxiety, and depression's correlation with creativity. - No significant overall effect found between these psychopathologies and creative thinking. - Mention of variability across studies due to different assessment methods and factors like age, gender, and intelligence. 10:35 🧠 *Newer meta-analysis from 2020 highlighting ADHD's nuanced relationship with creativity.* - Detailed exploration of 31 studies examining ADHD's link with creativity using various measures. - Distinction between clinical ADHD cases and subclinical cases concerning creativity. - Insights into self-reported creative abilities by individuals with ADHD and potential biases. Made with HARPA AI
could the inverted u-shaped idea explain why ADHD IQ is slightly lower than average? In a way that very high-IQ ADHD is subclinical so less high-IQ people are captured under the ADHD .
ADHD summary: WE ARE NOT MORE CREATIVE - we need to go to art shows and shout "who is adhd, raise your hands" and then shout: WE ARE MORE CREATIVE to put the normal and unfocused people at bay. We can't let our BuzzFeed legacy die. &AND& RUCKUSS said we are lying SOBs just trying to look good (well, we succeed because damn we look good) &AND& ask a college student take a test and they will probably be good at it, don't ask somebody that has lost everything due to ADHD &AND& Seems that tortured artists isn't really special with their art they are just tortured - give them a hug.
I have a notebook of app ideas. I don't think it's possible for a single human to build that many apps anyway. now are they useful, well, while they remain in my notebook no, but say I build them, would they be useful, to some ppl. I'm not building new twitter or facebook for everyone to use, I'm building niche apps for ppl like me to use, to enjoy in the same things I enjoy. I reckon some of them would be useful more than others,
Has anyone ever heard Barkley say one positive thing about ADHD? I tend to think saying something positive may be in conflict with his contracts with big pharma of which he disclaims prior to his professional talks. Just FYI folks.
I'd give away my adhd in a heart beat. Terrible disorder. Absolutely ruined a lot of my friends with late diagnose and pretty much all my other friends that have it have had traumatic lives due to it
what is useful exactly? how do you measure that. I love Dr Barkley, but sometimes it feels like he is obsessed with shooting down any idea that what he calls ADHD could have any kind of positive side consequences... It feels like piling....he acknoledges the existance of co morbidity easily, hinting at side consequences in that respect.. All i take from it is I am who I am. ADHD is not a positive indicator of identity and treatment is the only thing ADHD persons should expect, ask for or try to obtain.
@@guillaumelevasseur277 I completely agree. It feels to me like he actively seeks out positivity about ADHD and wants to be the first person to slap that idea to the ground and yell "nothing good comes of it!! It's a disorder!" He acts like someone who was hurt by a close family member with ADHD and now he's just a bully
I understand how you feel. I personnaly think that there is just something counterproductive in this series of rebuttals. On one hand Dr Barkley insists that ADHD persons are fundamentally the same as other human beings while also arguing that the disease be treated seriously and uniformely while admitting it's dimensional. As fundamentally similar human beings ADHD people have the right to search for meaning where they choose and Dr Barlkey should try to provide ressources for ADHD persons to choose a mixed approach instead of trying to convince everyone of us to take meds even if it might have ill-effects. Humility should cut both ways. Poor pharmacology choices induced by Dr Barkley's appeal can hurt people as much or more as seeing yourself as creative. The reality of clinical intervention in treatement of ADHD is greyer than Dr Barkley would lead us to believe. A clinician has a duty of restreint in his public speaking for a reason. Dr Barkley is viewed as an authority on his subject. To present himself as the sole arbitrer of truth by omitting contradicting views in the field is harmful and can lead to afflicted people to ignore alternative treatment. I simply ask that Doctor Barkley stop these rebuttals and start to try to help by providing positive examples and tools instead of being a polemist. G.
Its obvious that ADHD condition favours creativity - What is creativity is difficult to quantify - I find that the shear amount of unfiltered thoughts allows me to see unusual or unconventional lanes of thought which has resulted in me having good problem solving skills and unusually dynamic ways of thinking. Is that creative - probably. The problem with the ways creativity and IQ are measured is that they are very likely substantially floored - by definition, if humans don't have all the answers - which we don't, how can we say we can define intelligence, as we are obviously severely lacking in it. Divergent thinking seems to be a way of thinking that the people measuring are not clever enough to understand the value of - The experts have been shown to have failed in may fields in the last few years. I have learned that we should stop being told what to think by people that aren't good at it and trust our instincts more - We know that the people with the highest measured IQ's have not always been the most influential and useful people to the human race - I think in the coming years we will come to realise that raw IQ (as measured) is one part of what makes a dynamic human mind, particularly as we people start to wake up to the turning spiritual tide of this coming paradigm. If there is a range in IQ, how can we say the the lower end of the the spectrum makes people retarded and the upper gifted - we are all within the range. What's more important than high IQ is honesty and integrity and courage of conviction and the willingness to fit for what you believe.
Hey Russell Barkley Sir I Am From India Adhd Treatment Poor Are moderate here we have mph available please answer my question How to get persist in life if you have adhd and why i forgot or stop doing things that i decided any solution for this i dig many research but i can't find it sir is there any way i keep Remeber same intention in mind that i started my project or plan
I am a huge Dr. Barkley fan for many years HOWEVER I want to remind everyone that he, by his own admission, is funded by big pharma, so we must keep in mind that he is not paid to find advantages of ADHD, quite the opposite. Notice in this vid he fails to mention the other disorder (syndrome actually ) that was the “inattentive type” that will be eliminated from ADHD in the next DSM. Hmmmmmm One has to wonder why he would use old studies not allowing for this new finding that a substantial amount of people diagnosed with ADHD, actually do not have ADHD or even a disorder but an entirely different syndrome. I look forward to the studies on ADHD and creativity AFTER the people who don’t have it are removed from the equation. In the meantime, keep this in mind when listening to Dr. Barkley’s opinion.
There are several misrepresentations here, Nicole, that I can clear up for you. I have not received any funds from the pharmaceutical industry for the past 1.5 years. So I am not funded by big pharma. For the decade prior to that, I received approximately 1% or less of my income from the pharma industry for an occasional lecture at a professional conference, amounting to about $2-3K per year. In contrast, I received 20x that much from social security. And over half of my income during this decade was from books and internet courses for professionals, so I guess I am funded far more by “big publishing.” Across my entire career, less than 3% of my research support at my university medical schools came from the pharmaceutical industry, and that was for one study of driving in adults with ADHD and whether Atomoxetine might improve their functioning in that domain. The rest is from the NIH or medical school small grants, as my website makes plain. And you have missed my 6 part lecture on this channel on that other attention disorder, cognitive disengagement syndrome, the existence of which I have been championing for more than 20 years under its earlier term, sluggish cognitive tempo. To my knowledge, there are no plans to eliminate the inattentive presentation from the next DSM, which as far as I know is not even in the works at this time. Thanks for the chance to correct the innuendo here.
I think he's biased. He really has a hard time accepting that there might be something useful in being different, and has a need to make us all invalids
Yeah this lines up with the real world pretty well it seems. A friend of mine is brilliant for the most part and this compensates for much of his adhd. thus he ends up sorta in this sweetspot of creativity. I think this can also apply to richer people, there are less stressors on the executive function system, ofc this won't always be true.
I'm a divergent thinker (late-diagnosed ADHD-C at age 46). I'm also a creative. Creativity requires BOTH divergent and convergent thinking and also the ability to apply them appropriately for different stages of the creative process. Having an impairment in convergent thinking as well as difficulty applying behaviours and skills (when needed... not according to my feelings or mood) has meant that my creativity could only go so far.
Thank you Dr Russell Barkley for continually clarifying the disorder. There is so much clutter and confusion out there, its nice to hear some succinct, no-frills talking (especially for those of us struggling with ADHD.... we're confused and cluttered enough).
Thanks once again.
A couple of observations: firstly, I believe both people with ADHD and those without have an interest in finding something positive about the condition. Those with ADHD are looking for compensations for the condition which turns their lives into a series of missed opportunities and self inflicted crises. Those without ADHD can look for reasons to avoid the overhead of compassion and the bothersome need to make allowances and grant accommodations. So the idea of ADHD giving benefits can be congruent for both groups.
Secondly on a personal level: Colleagues have noted I'm good at coming up with ideas. My ability to prioritise these ideas, to develop and follow through on them is a different matter. IF I have higher levels of creativity, through intelligence, disinhibition or whatever, it isn't actually benefitting me much, except for short term activities. As an engineer I troubleshoot machinery. It's both a divergent process, identifying what could be a problem, and a convergent process, looking for evidence to confirm or eliminate possibilities. I'm pretty good at both, and it's how I make a living. From an ADHD perspective these situations are ...
A. Often novel, I don't know what the problem will be, so there is an element of discovery.
B. Urgent. There is an element of pressure form the client.
C. Rewarding. There is a positive emotional payoff if I am a clever boy and solve the problem.
For longer term things where enjoying the fruits of creativity needs hard graft, it's more of a struggle.
Thank you Dr. Barkley. This is so informative, insightful and “counterintuitive” to the common misbeliefs. Personally I don’t see higher levels of creativity on me, on the contrary, I loathe my lack of creativity. This is probably and mostly attributable to my higher degree of ADHD. I can also confirm that the only times I am considered to be creative are those when being impulsive, however, those impulsive moments sadly translate more to problems and my shame, than to creativities! 😭
thanks for the insights.
Just to add on to this....personally it's refreshing to hear as this notion that as someone with adhd I should be creative just gave me another reason to see myself as broken.
@@tomh5094 just so you know everyone on the planet earth that is human is broken just cause you don’t see it or it’s different from yours doesn’t mean that yours is any worse than anyone else’s it’s called inherited sin we all inherited imperfection from our parents and whether it’s in one form or another We all need to work on something.
Jeezus FINALLY I’ve found an adhd channel with someone who’s intelligent, educated, and gets right to the friggin point without subjecting us to their life story! 🤘🏽
I greatly appreciate Dr. Barkley, especially how he can differentiate "trade literature" from scholarly scientific comprehensive analysis and research. Much appreciated!
I was concerned that medication would affect my creativity. I asked my psychiatrist: 'This won't turn me into an accountant will it?!?'. She laughed and said 'No, if it did that, I'd be taking it'. And I can confirm that Xaggitin XL (same as Concerta XL) DID NOT inhibit my creativity but DID mean I was better able to complete and discern tasks whether or not I found them boring.
People also misunderstand creativity and, in particular, choosing to make a living creatively. Every professional creative role demands some degree of executive functioning, organisation and cataloguing/maintenance of work and tools, selling your work/skill.
For me, ADHD has been a huge impairment in these areas and as such, I have constantly missed opportunities and potential in my career path as a graphic designer (which is a creative field that also demands discipline. We are, after all, trying to design systems to make information clearer and easily accessible). I was really good at coming up with an original idea (albeit at the last minute) but struggled to carry it through. I think that confirms that ADHD is not a superpower, nor does it pre-dispose or predict what areas you might have a natural leaning towards (I guess that stuff is influenced and determined by other parts of the brain).
When I go to ADHD meetup groups. We all come from different career backgrounds, different talents, interests and education but we feel a connection to each other and camaraderie by our ADHD and the struggles and upheavals the symptoms cause in our lives.
Another designer (and multipassionate creator) here, I agree with everything. It's really difficult to explain to people who are not in a creative career that in order to become successful (and not just a talented dilettante), we absolutely need to be conscientious and responsible. So many colleagues of mine destroyed their reputation because they didn't follow through. Clients don't like handing over money and not hearing from a designer for weeks or even months!
Concerta didn't affect my creativity negatively at all. It helps me wake up, clear my head, and get to work will less faffing about. I'm more efficient in my paid work, so I have more free time to paint, write, make videos... It supports my creativity in the best way possible.
And yes, I'm still able to think outside the box. That's a "muscle" I've been training my entire life, it's not going to get hampered by medication.
@@NelaDunato yes, the medication is kind of like putting glasses on for us. I feel much calmer when I take it because I can see what I need to do and actually get it done. I do need other interventions (coaching, occupational therapy) as well though, to help with executive functions and structuring.
Something I noticed that makes my ADHD more extreme is alcohol (which is a depressant and people use it to relax). I get very hyper very quickly and almost manic. Having a drink is not relaxing at all for me.
@@NelaDunato Also, I liked your word 'multipassionate'. I feel that way too. And it won't just be in my specialised area, I'm interested in too many things!
On the one hand, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think intrigue and curiosity is an amazing part of being human. But, with ADHD it's hard to turn any of that into something useful because before you've mastered and completed something, you're already buying all the books, kit and courses for something else that caught your attention (hence... the hobby graveyard ) . 🙄
I think we need a study specifically focused on late diagnosed women.
Because there is a huge group of people are not medically diagnosed until their life is a mess.
It is shocking when you're super intelligent and talented but not even able to do basic daily tasks.
Maybe professionals should dig into that "high adhd traits" group because we work so hard to stay unimpaired until the point of burnout.
And that's when we're officially diagnosable in our 30s.
Average diagnose age for women with ADHD was 37 when I last checked.
So until that age they *appear* not ADHD.
Did I really "appear not ADHD" while I was flunking out of high school and college? Apparently so, since I wasn't diagnosed until my 30's. It must be because of my creativity. Or my gender. Yes, I was hiding the ADHD inside my vagina. That's it.
I don't think we "appear" not adhd.
I think we are invalidated in medical settings. There have been plenty of studies on that.
@@nottilthursday what I mean is we don't look like "the hyperactive naughty boy" stereotype.
Our struggles seen as anxiety, depression and so on.
Gained a lot of nuanced insights from this video! Never knew there could be more factors at play when finding out the relation of creativity with someone who has adhd.
This is just my anecdotal experience: I’m often told that I’m creative but too lazy to start doing said creative ideas. From my perspective, I don’t think about creativity. What really happens from my pov is I’m trying so hard to eliminate external problems that could potentially be additional distractions to my already fast, crowded, & disorganized mind. Sometimes this results in solutions, but sometimes I just end up wasting time being “efficient”
Thank you so much Dr Berkeley. I prefer these technical data driven commentaries, they're not dry in the least. At least, not to my adhd mind.
HI Dr Barkley, I am really getting a lot out of your videos. I keep thinking for myself especially these things like creativity, productivity, being somewhat entrepreneurial work really well when working in a team with other people who have complimentary skills of being more detail oriented, making sure admin gets done, create deadlines etc. I notice a lot of successful ADHD creatives have a business partner who can make sure things don't go off the rails.
I'm having trouble with the idea that someone with high symptom ratings is automatically presumed not to have the disorder and lack any impairment. This seems to overlook barriers to diagnosis, especially for certain demographics, like girls and adults.
If someone has high ratings of ADHD symptoms, they probably DO suffer impairment, and were *forced* to practice creative problem-solving in the *absence* of clinical treatment.
For 30 years, I would have fallen into this category, until finally finding a provider who didn't invalidate me point blank. Not one provider besides my current one ever actually assessed me, *even when they themselves suggested ADHD* as an explanation for my struggles. Yes, this really happened, and not just to me.
Many of my friends who also struggled and suffered well into adulthood, like me, were ignored or dismissed without assessment, and, like me, were eventually diagnosed in their 30's. The timing is notable, because this didn't coincide with their symptoms getting worse, but with them getting better, because they came off more "composed" in their reports and were no longer perceived as "drug-seeking" by their providers.
I have been advised, by my own providers, that if a doctor suspects that I WANT an ADHD assessment, I won't get one, especially if I'm around college age (finally old enough to seek medical treatment for the problems my parents ignored out of social stigma.) I have been told that if I want treatment for my ADHD, I have to play dumb, avoid mentioning ADHD, go along with every misdiagnosis and ineffective solution, and even lie about their efficacy, until ADHD is the last explanation they have available. I didn't do this, not only because my impulsivity makes me a bad liar, but because I couldn't. I couldn't stay composed so consistently.
I was raised by people who not only lacked faith in the medical system, but believed ADHD was only diagnosed to sell drugs. This isn't exactly uncommon. They would have believed Jordan Peterson in a heartbeat because his narrative has always been popular. There are a shocking number of parents out there who think doctors invented ADHD to drug their kids, and on top of that, there are a shocking number of doctors who think patients are *usually* faking ADHD to get drugs. This chronic disbelief in ADHD creates an environment where many of us with extreme clinical impairment are kicked to the curb, not in spite of our impairment, but /because of it./
For someone who acknowledges the inadequacies of the DSM-5's diagnostic criteria of ADHD, under-served demographics, and barriers to clinical treatment, I'm shocked to see you disregard people with ***HIGH*** ratings for ADHD symptoms as "not impaired." If they rate their symptoms highly, Dr. Russ, they're probably so highly impaired that they come off as desperate while reporting it... and are therefore denied clinical treatment.
In this case, it may be you who is "worse than wrong," and I feel like it's a moral failure if I don't tell you about it. Surely, you can reconsider your biases better than Jordan.
Really really really well saud. Thankyou. ❤
I scored in the top 1% for divergent thinking a few yrs ago. Very adhd. I wound up emailing the psychologist and he said the most divergent thinking capable tend to be professional poker players.
I'm glad you mentioned how the lack of inhibition is related to lateral thinking. I was very curious about that.
I was diagnosed with ADHD a little under a year ago at age 58, and started on methylphenidate immediately. I have achieved a lot of success in the creative field, but because of undiagnosed and therefore unmedicated ADHD, I didn't have my shit together, and screwed up, basically. It's very difficult to fully succeed as a creative person if you have phobias about the duller side of it; paperwork, accounting, marketing, etc, even if you have an agent. So at 58, my creativity is baked in, and the meds enable me to tackle the things you previously feared and tried to ignore. They also enable you to 'get down to business' creatively more easily. Another feature of ADHD is self-doubt and chronic perfectionism which are nearly always unhelpful, and the medication eases these symptoms in an incredibly beneficial way. I think there is probably a higher percentage of ADHD in creative people than 'regular' people, but often that creativity is squandered because of the difficulties ADHD brings in other, less fun, but important areas.
Hey Dr Barkley, love the content, great video as always! I had an idea to make the content a bit more accessible, especially with the longer form videos that go on for 30+ minutes.
TIMESTAMPS!!!!! There is a feature you can use while making the video to add timestamps to each individual section, to break it up into smaller chunks, that people can refer back to or watch again. Would be a great help for us ADHDers
Fascinating!
It would be interesting to know if treating pathological ADHD (inhibited creativity) with medication could move you along the inverted U-curve to a more optimal point and in fact increase your creativity.
Thank you Dr Barkely this is fascinating stuff to hear. I obviously have so many thoughts, and feel inhibited now, which often leads me to my intuitive thought, and mostly ends well for me and helps gain further insight to myself and others, specifically in my work with ADHD peopel on that note. Just my thoughts in brief if I can, I wonder should we change the language,and define creativity. Many take the term creative as a skill of art and beautiful appreciated results. Ive always thought it meant to think outside the box, to share the ideas and be brave about them for the better good! Adhd people have racing thoughts and struggle to keep up with them, and feel excited and some of the problem solving issues they work on, and may express them through a project they are working on , this is humanistic and different, and possibly creating solutions we have not figured out yet..faster than a divergent person, I believe it is a different type of creativity!
hi doc- congrats on your lengthy success with now ending newsletter (for want).. i was hatched in 1971, san francisco, and being female, awfully lucky to be "seen" as a child of potential talents and creativity and being a heady spazz. my folks were playing in the dregs of the summer of love and so weren't on top of involving sending me to GATE, putting me on meds...more of a diet-driven interest from them= coffee and wheat bread. i skipped a grade. was separated in class, did calculus for extra credit in 6th grade and then i turned totally dumb. had to repeat pre-algebra in high school, twice. ha! could be the hormones, which i have always maintained is the issue, since i've had abdominal cancers 3x over my 20s to now...i got hurt at work in 2009 and after going through workman's comp i was urged to try out for disability. i took an i.q, test and got a 91. my psych was surprised. not me, though. surviving socially means being an award-winning mimic , so maybe artful in that respect but a lot depended on my surroundings and luckily san francsico had tons of cool things and folks. ideas i have are really cool and i tend to be somewhat in the zeitgeist, so it's hard to find help to carry them through b/c it's not time for them yet. my psyche is listed as body part number one by way of disability and my life is just becoming more and more hijacked by adhd, et.al. wonder if anyone can relate to used to have it, dont have it no more and pleasse help me maintain a relationship of any kind. is why i write, but also to thank you for making all this info somewhat understandable and all your time ( and your colleagues) in doing so. post script+ my most creative time was when i was on effexor and cocaine. no doubt about it. been clean for 15 years, but drugs really helped, i guess, amplify the inhibitions i already had. jesus. ciggies, too, were satisfying. meh.
This one's always struck me as being a red herring. I think it got a lot of coverage here on UA-cam and on other social media platforms because people were desperate to find something positive to say about ADHD and so it got dumped in there with hyper-focus as being a 'benefit' of the disorder. Given what we know about ADHD thanks to experts like yourself, it never made sense to me that we'd be any more creative than the next person.
Thank you Dr. Barkley! I love your humor! Old people in flannel! This is such a gift for you to share your evidence based scientific research with us and your humor! Thanks again!
I'm a person with ADHD and have a creative side myself, but I do find the observations intriguing. Maybe there will be more findings regarding this relationship? but only time tells us.
Could you make an “adhd and sugar” or “adhd and diet” bc that’s mentioned sooo often, sometimes up to the point that diet alone is claimed to be able to manage it completely.
So yea 😂 that would be great.
I will see what I can do but there are so many dietary supplements and adjustments that it can hard to explore it all in a short video.
It's always confused me when others with ADHD talk about being more creative, because I feel like I can never come up with anything creative at all. I can make the occassional witty comment, or discuss possibilities of things existing in nature based on evidence and science, but if I'm attempting to make something new, it feels like my mind goes entirely blank. It's basically the only time my brain shuts up, and it makes me feel disfunctional.
Thank you Dr. Barkley. As informative, as always you are very much appreciated!
Glad it was helpful!
People with ADHD develop coping strategies -it requires a lot of creativity to live and survive with this type of impairment, I think that there are thousands of seemingly coping ,,clowns'' who learnt making fun of their ,,inadequacies'', the cost of it is terrible but this strategy allows to live ,,next to'' your problem. Was ADHD problem of Robin Williams? They say it was, if it is true he would be the best example of what I am talking about.
I am about to do an MSc in Psychology and I want to study the prevalence of ADHD symptoms in Music University students in the UK (rock and pop). And these studies will be super useful! My theory is not necessarily that ADHD makes people more creative necessarily- however that those who go towards creative fields especially in a pop setting might be higher prevalence of challenging ADHD symptoms. This is something I’ve anecdotally experienced as a performer and lecturer in music for many years. I got diagnosed at 27 and it was enlightening.
Incredibly informative- thank you for your clarification of the literature on this topic
I think different things get conflated - I think someone with clinical adhd may have high creative potential and may deeply struggle to express that creativity in a concrete or ‘expressed’ way - I don’t think people are creative because they have adhd. I think having adhd is living life with perpetual brakes on - trying to move forward in life with deficient executive function is laborious and exhausting. Trying to put a positive spin on that just doesn’t help (in my view :)
Thank you for all your work Dr. Barkley 🙏💛
I am really perseverative, before being medicated I had really low problem solving abilities and capacity to adapt to new situations. But because of my constant need for stimulation I read a lot and reading, learning, I find new ways to solve problems.
I'd imagine increased disorder would be expected to hamper creativity lol. A good analysis as always.
I love that you are doing this and breaking it down. I wish EVERYONE had access, understood the controls, what measures are best, and all the biases that take place in scientific peer reviewed articles. I'm so sick of everyone reading a news article and believing it all.
I have adhd and didn't know many say they do better at certain things, I second guess myself all the time.
Also, impulsivity as a way to make you more creative was a rather odd theory to me. I studied psychopaths and psychopathy. Their impulse control is not wonderful... and the same area in the frontal lobe seem to be at play. I am horrible at APA format but "Joseph p. Newman" spoke of the frontal lobe and executive functioning.
I could only think of one thing, I tend to be able to use items as tools in various ways and that's due to my constant stream of rapid thoughts.
And no I am not saying adhd and psychopaths are the same at all, there are numerous areas in the brain of psychopaths theorized to cause their actions
Zoom in your screens doc. Great explanations by the way.
I feel like there is a lot to unpack on this topic. Firstly the kind of creativity we are talking about (and whether it’s really possible to measure creativity in a scientific way). Even if ADHD does give you higher levels of divergent thinking (I think it’s pretty clear convergent thinking is impaired) there is still the problem that people with ADHD often lack follow through so it’s still a disability (unless they can collaborate with people who do have follow through).
Secondly the problem of differentiation between high levels of ADHD traits and diagnostic ADHD.
There seems to be a bit of a “no true Scotsman” argument regarding ADHD such as “no true person with clinical ADHD can be successful”. But I think the problem is that you can really really struggle with ADHD and still get results, either through compensating methods, sheer luck or intelligence.
There are still a lot of clinicians out there with a very old fashion view of ADHD that’ll refuse to diagnose you with ADHD if, say, you passed high school with a decent GPA. I can see how it’s tempting to look at something like that and say “well it’s clearly not a hindrance” but often in reality it’s impacting so many other aspects of their life, maybe they had no social life because that had set aside huge blocks of time to study because they knew they were going to procrastinate. Or maybe they stressed themselves into a state of anxiety and depression because they did everything last minute. Not every clinician is on the same page with ADHD and I wonder if that is taken into account when talking about what constitutes a clinical case of ADHD.
It's really useful Dr B and helpful to hear your views and analysis.
Love u so much doc ❤❤❤ thanks for ur efforts to enlighten us
I was diagnosed with ADHD at 49(about to be 50)... but also PTSD and still awaiting on a psychiatrist referral for whatever else my brain might be dealing with. Although I have ADHD(Severe combined type with impulse control issues being the most difficult to battle), I also believe I would be on the autism spectrum(Can see many symptoms in my grandmother on my mother's side, as well as my mother and one sister). My brain seems to have a particular strength in problem solving by using mathematical probability, which is how I seem to make every decision(Weighing outcomes vs consequences and likelihood of facing said consequences... Impulse control is the kryptonite to Autistic brains it seems). I have high anxiety, but my anxiety is probably rooted in my need to control my ADHD through organization. When unable to organize my thoughts, I become very anxious to regain control. Feeling like a slave to impulse issues my brain throws a fit because I also have a deep need to have control(Stubborn beyond words as a response to not having my impulse issues under control?). We all are on a spectrum of some sort, but it's fascinating to feel so different and misunderstood when so many of us are similar.
I'm so creative I often suffer from mental constipation 😂
But hey, it made me realize why I do things in a certain way why doing stuff even with proper instructions is often so exhausting.
Well, now I need an old men wearing flannel follow up with you and Patrick Mckenna from the Red Green show.
Really well said, loved that🌹🌹🌹🌹
Thank you!
The irony here is that ADHD people with high iq mostly go undiagnosed until their 30s, especially women.
Maybe because we have "less" ADHD or because we learn to mask our symptoms.
Therefore I'm not sure if these studies are able to correctly measure creativity on all ADHD population since you excluded the most creative group.
Interestingly those undiagnosed people mostly work on creative professions such as artists, designers, musicians and actors.
This. It probably excludes more successful ADHDers. As if to say that ADHD and inability to succeed and blend in are one and the same. Does this mean that we are “less” ADHD? I doubt it… Or possibly that we are more creative and that overcomes some of our ADHD? I am a creative professional and wasn’t diagnosed until my late 20s. I had many symptoms my entire life (when looking back) and extremely high IQ, but no one would have ever guessed I had ADHD. It would be interesting to see a study with ADHD adults who escaped detection until when the delayed development of ADHD should begin or should have “leveled off”.
I have ADHD and am told i am creative both in the problem solving way and the artsy fartsy way, but really my memory is just so bad i approach everything like its the first time and have to do a lifetimes worth of experimenting all at once instead of just calling on past experiences. I think anyone who has a different brain than the majority will seem creative because their thoughts go down paths that are less traveled. But those thoughts are not more creative than anyone else, its just more unique.
Can you do a video carefully explaining differences between ADHD and disorganized schizophrenia? Always the most grotesquely exaggerated/incomprehensible examples are used to show a clear distance of the latter from the former, but I think there's much more overlap in neural circuits than lends the eye. Added difficulty is that medications which could help organize the thought process in disorganized schizophrenia, could serve to bring out otherwise transient hallucinations at baseline. Would love to see more discussion on this.
Thanks for the video.
College students as you say are bound to be more creative anyway - a critical confound in these studies. They likely come from families with access to enrichment activities and culture.
Brilliant. Thank you.
Anyway, I just found some creativity test online, it uses brick like he said, so it must be close, scored better than average, but I would say like 25% of questions actually have something to do with creativity, rest of them are nonsensical, like you grading yourself for being something, which makes no sense. one of the items it rates you on is persistence, which in my case, you guessed it, was just a fraction below average. I think maybe us with adhd think of these words as something else to normal ppl, like how he uses phrase "inner voice" to mean "ability to tell your self to do something" and we think "the constant insatiable prattle that won't let me sleep, eat, ever walk alone and so on"
Old men in flannel rock! I wear such attire myself
Interesting stuff thank you for your contribution to everyone's understanding. My divergent thinking is above average but damn I'm slow in processing power. Anything I can do to maybe bump up my numbers in that world?
I can’t give personal advice but off loading any working memory requirements onto other devices, including paper, journals, or other low tech solutions help people keep complex information organized and in front of them so they can process its relations better.
Thanks a lot for this video. I would consider myself highly creative (late-diagnosed ADHD at age 39).
In my high school students I can see a big variety of creative skills.
Those who are medicated or in therapy show a higher level than those who are not.
My theory is that those who remain untreated need more brain power to cope with their ADHD than those who are treated. What are your thoughts on this?
Lots of storms headed for us tonight in Richmond. Stay safe!
indeed there was. thanks for the well wishes.
Yeah they put ideology above Science because it makes good reading, we must remain critical and objective.
I always thought of myself as an idea person.
On your final slide/point: Certainly if you are impaired from ADHD you will score lower on any test. Even when considering goal oriented creativity, a testing environment is structured and not necessarily conducive to the ADHD brain's creative process. Honestly, if the test isn't interesting then it definitely isn't conducive to ADHD creativity. Would you rate someone's reading level lower because they were too bored by a text to read quickly? Or too distracted? Test scores may fluctuate but I think its a misinterpretation to say otherwise stable aspects of a person like reading comprehension, deductive reasoning, or creativity change with your level of focus.
I wonder if emotional dysregulation also has an impact on empathizing or generating ideas. the relationship between sensitivity and creativity in its artistic form, or if its just unrelated to adhd
My personal perspective: Inattentive ADHD is characterized by the default mode network running inappropriately often, such as when boring but important tasks are at hand. The default mode network is inherently creative though. It chews on problems or amuses itself with daydreams. So does ADHD improve creative ability? No. But are you more creative? Well, your brain creates more, so by most laymen definitions, yes. Additionally, it has far more to work with because of hyperfocus. How many wikipedia binges are stored in your head? I have a lot in mine. I spent 6 hours the other night looking up copepods in relation to mosquito control. Is this relevant to my work or personal life? Only in as much as I live in south Louisiana and its been raining. When my brain has to cast a net for solutions, its not only less selective, but there is a lot more to get caught in the net. Oh, and yes, I do find that the meds make me less creative, in as much as mindwandering is inhibited. Its like a child wandering in the woods occasionally bringing back something it found. Usually unimportant, rarely relevant, and often of questionable usefulness. But only questionable. My unmedicated brain gets random ideas for hobby projects or D&D characters or stories. If the project seems like a good idea, it might get made. If the D&D idea comes at a time when I am actually playing, it may get used. Otherwise, it gets chewed on and then forgotten. Sometimes it floats back to the surface later on, often it doesn't. Occasionally the thought becomes my brain's favorite chew toy for half a year or more.
All of this is just not how normal people think. Their train of thought has rails and a destination. Mine is a hot air balloon. If it gets where it needs to go it isn't without some sightseeing along the way and often an errant wind takes it someplace unexpected. Is my inability to get to a destination in a timely manner a dysfunction? Yes. But is my inherent ability to effortlessly sightsee a strength? Also yes.
I know you specialise in ADHD, but would be great if you could analyse the literature on creativity and autism too - I suspect again there is no link.
I sure as hell am not creative in the artistic sense but I am an idea man and will throw out a bunch of potential solutions even if it is a bit dumb until something sticks haha. My coworkers get annoyed sometimes due to my persistence that it could work until something is pointed out and makes me realize that particular one will not work and then I go off again haha. It works half the time when tried and half the time it is more work than it needed to be. Hindsight sucks sometimes lol.
Does this count as creative?
I have a question, I am a patient who take medication for bipolar disorder(not really diagnosed), so I take white football-shaped xanax(which is very mild), a half piece of quetiapine(which is very small, but I think it’s very strong effect), and flourscence yellow risperidone(which is increased after the event that I can’t talk in common places).
I think my maniac symptoms are fairly controlled with risperidone, however I felt that my creativity is kinda impaired after strengthening medication.(I think it’s due to lack of dopamine, but it’s fair enough trade off since I didn’t suffer from exhaustion, mania, anger)
What that means that, I can’t take NDRI since it causes maniac.
But I think I have some adhd symptoms - especially for executive function, I think without meditation(not medication) I can’t deal with my college coursework enough.
I have several question,
1. It is possible to have adhd and mania together?
2. If those two are contradicting, how can I deal with my executing function?(such as taking SNRI rather than SSRI)
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:25 🎯 *ADHD and its association with creativity discussed by Russ Barkley.*
- Russ Barkley delves into the widely reported claim about ADHD being linked to elevated creativity.
- Divergent vs. convergent creativity definitions and their implications.
- ADHD's connection to executive functioning and its potential impact on creativity.
02:45 📚 *Literature review on ADHD and creativity from various studies.*
- Review of the 2008 ADHD report by Julia Rutledge and Dion Healy on creativity.
- Distinction between studies using clinical ADHD criteria versus just elevated symptoms.
- Controversies and inconsistencies in the literature regarding ADHD's relationship with creativity.
07:39 📊 *Meta-analysis findings on Psychopathology, including ADHD, and creativity.*
- Analysis of 89 studies focusing on ADHD, anxiety, and depression's correlation with creativity.
- No significant overall effect found between these psychopathologies and creative thinking.
- Mention of variability across studies due to different assessment methods and factors like age, gender, and intelligence.
10:35 🧠 *Newer meta-analysis from 2020 highlighting ADHD's nuanced relationship with creativity.*
- Detailed exploration of 31 studies examining ADHD's link with creativity using various measures.
- Distinction between clinical ADHD cases and subclinical cases concerning creativity.
- Insights into self-reported creative abilities by individuals with ADHD and potential biases.
Made with HARPA AI
I’m a highly creative musician with adhd 🎉
could the inverted u-shaped idea explain why ADHD IQ is slightly lower than average? In a way that very high-IQ ADHD is subclinical so less high-IQ people are captured under the ADHD .
ADHDers may not measue higher on creativity, but is there evidence that their creativity is qualitatively different?
ADHD summary:
WE ARE NOT MORE CREATIVE - we need to go to art shows and shout "who is adhd, raise your hands" and then shout: WE ARE MORE CREATIVE to put the normal and unfocused people at bay. We can't let our BuzzFeed legacy die.
&AND&
RUCKUSS said we are lying SOBs just trying to look good (well, we succeed because damn we look good)
&AND&
ask a college student take a test and they will probably be good at it, don't ask somebody that has lost everything due to ADHD
&AND&
Seems that tortured artists isn't really special with their art they are just tortured - give them a hug.
I have a notebook of app ideas. I don't think it's possible for a single human to build that many apps anyway. now are they useful, well, while they remain in my notebook no, but say I build them, would they be useful, to some ppl. I'm not building new twitter or facebook for everyone to use, I'm building niche apps for ppl like me to use, to enjoy in the same things I enjoy. I reckon some of them would be useful more than others,
Has anyone ever heard Barkley say one positive thing about ADHD? I tend to think saying something positive may be in conflict with his contracts with big pharma of which he disclaims prior to his professional talks. Just FYI folks.
I'd give away my adhd in a heart beat. Terrible disorder. Absolutely ruined a lot of my friends with late diagnose and pretty much all my other friends that have it have had traumatic lives due to it
Doesn't measuring creativity by "how many novel ideas can you come up with that are useful?" imply that art and music aren't creative?
what is useful exactly? how do you measure that. I love Dr Barkley, but sometimes it feels like he is obsessed with shooting down any idea that what he calls ADHD could have any kind of positive side consequences... It feels like piling....he acknoledges the existance of co morbidity easily, hinting at side consequences in that respect.. All i take from it is I am who I am. ADHD is not a positive indicator of identity and treatment is the only thing ADHD persons should expect, ask for or try to obtain.
@@guillaumelevasseur277 I completely agree.
It feels to me like he actively seeks out positivity about ADHD and wants to be the first person to slap that idea to the ground and yell "nothing good comes of it!! It's a disorder!"
He acts like someone who was hurt by a close family member with ADHD and now he's just a bully
I understand how you feel. I personnaly think that there is just something counterproductive in this series of rebuttals. On one hand Dr Barkley insists that ADHD persons are fundamentally the same as other human beings while also arguing that the disease be treated seriously and uniformely while admitting it's dimensional. As fundamentally similar human beings ADHD people have the right to search for meaning where they choose and Dr Barlkey should try to provide ressources for ADHD persons to choose a mixed approach instead of trying to convince everyone of us to take meds even if it might have ill-effects. Humility should cut both ways. Poor pharmacology choices induced by Dr Barkley's appeal can hurt people as much or more as seeing yourself as creative.
The reality of clinical intervention in treatement of ADHD is greyer than Dr Barkley would lead us to believe.
A clinician has a duty of restreint in his public speaking for a reason. Dr Barkley is viewed as an authority on his subject. To present himself as the sole arbitrer of truth by omitting contradicting views in the field is harmful and can lead to afflicted people to ignore alternative treatment.
I simply ask that Doctor Barkley stop these rebuttals and start to try to help by providing positive examples and tools instead of being a polemist.
G.
Its obvious that ADHD condition favours creativity - What is creativity is difficult to quantify - I find that the shear amount of unfiltered thoughts allows me to see unusual or unconventional lanes of thought which has resulted in me having good problem solving skills and unusually dynamic ways of thinking. Is that creative - probably. The problem with the ways creativity and IQ are measured is that they are very likely substantially floored - by definition, if humans don't have all the answers - which we don't, how can we say we can define intelligence, as we are obviously severely lacking in it. Divergent thinking seems to be a way of thinking that the people measuring are not clever enough to understand the value of - The experts have been shown to have failed in may fields in the last few years. I have learned that we should stop being told what to think by people that aren't good at it and trust our instincts more - We know that the people with the highest measured IQ's have not always been the most influential and useful people to the human race - I think in the coming years we will come to realise that raw IQ (as measured) is one part of what makes a dynamic human mind, particularly as we people start to wake up to the turning spiritual tide of this coming paradigm. If there is a range in IQ, how can we say the the lower end of the the spectrum makes people retarded and the upper gifted - we are all within the range. What's more important than high IQ is honesty and integrity and courage of conviction and the willingness to fit for what you believe.
Ouch.
I accept the evidence but still, ouch 🥺.
This evidence is incomplete. Never stop questioning.
Hey Russell Barkley Sir I Am From India Adhd Treatment Poor Are moderate here we have mph available please answer my question
How to get persist in life if you have adhd and why i forgot or stop doing things that i decided any solution for this i dig many research but i can't find it sir is there any way i keep Remeber same intention in mind that i started my project or plan
HAHAHA old people wearing flannel. lol
I am a huge Dr. Barkley fan for many years HOWEVER I want to remind everyone that he, by his own admission, is funded by big pharma, so we must keep in mind that he is not paid to find advantages of ADHD, quite the opposite. Notice in this vid he fails to mention the other disorder (syndrome actually ) that was the “inattentive type” that will be eliminated from ADHD in the next DSM. Hmmmmmm One has to wonder why he would use old studies not allowing for this new finding that a substantial amount of people diagnosed with ADHD, actually do not have ADHD or even a disorder but an entirely different syndrome.
I look forward to the studies on ADHD and creativity AFTER the people who don’t have it are removed from the equation. In the meantime, keep this in mind when listening to Dr. Barkley’s opinion.
There are several misrepresentations here, Nicole, that I can clear up for you. I have not received any funds from the pharmaceutical industry for the past 1.5 years. So I am not funded by big pharma. For the decade prior to that, I received approximately 1% or less of my income from the pharma industry for an occasional lecture at a professional conference, amounting to about $2-3K per year. In contrast, I received 20x that much from social security. And over half of my income during this decade was from books and internet courses for professionals, so I guess I am funded far more by “big publishing.” Across my entire career, less than 3% of my research support at my university medical schools came from the pharmaceutical industry, and that was for one study of driving in adults with ADHD and whether Atomoxetine might improve their functioning in that domain. The rest is from the NIH or medical school small grants, as my website makes plain. And you have missed my 6 part lecture on this channel on that other attention disorder, cognitive disengagement syndrome, the existence of which I have been championing for more than 20 years under its earlier term, sluggish cognitive tempo. To my knowledge, there are no plans to eliminate the inattentive presentation from the next DSM, which as far as I know is not even in the works at this time. Thanks for the chance to correct the innuendo here.
I think he's biased. He really has a hard time accepting that there might be something useful in being different, and has a need to make us all invalids
Can you show me a peer reviewed study where leading reachers in the field have concluded there is anything useful about ADHD? Because there isn’t.
Dr. Barkley may have some personal bias but when it comes to science he’s all about good evidence.
Yeah this lines up with the real world pretty well it seems. A friend of mine is brilliant for the most part and this compensates for much of his adhd. thus he ends up sorta in this sweetspot of creativity. I think this can also apply to richer people, there are less stressors on the executive function system, ofc this won't always be true.