Soviet K-13 Atoll missile IR seeker teardown
Вставка
- Опубліковано 23 гру 2018
- It is also know as the R-3S "Atoll"
Plenty of info here: rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/...
You can contribute to my channel with Paypal !
Any donation appreciated and will be used straight to purchase more stuff !
www.paypal.me/msylvain59
Or in cryptomoney by just clicking the like button. (maybe one day I'll figure out what to do with that...)
💗 Likecoin - Coins for Likes: likecoin.pro/@mashpriborintor... - Наука та технологія
Very interesting! The seeker is supposed to rotate off centre I think, because it uses conical scan. When it sees a target off-centre the sensor output is an AC signal which can be compared to the phase of rotation of the assembly to determine which way to fly. when the target is dead ahead the output is equal for all rotational angles and the missile flies in a straight line. Joyeux Noel and thanks for all your amazing videos!
Yes, it seems to be the way it works. Even if I still don't get it completely how it does the trick with only one "pixel" of a sensor and believe it may have been more easy and efficient tu use several sensors in an honeycomb pattern or something like that. Merry Christmas !
i dont quite understand ... must shooter plane targeted laser (infrared) to target plane while rocket flying to target? same like optic (semi manual) guided anti tank missiles?
@@onderol No, it is seeking the heat spot from the foe aircraft engine.
yep! i understand. thank you for video and answer.
@@msylvain59 i think that with a single photodiode or what, angular distance is translated to amplitude. Phase is direction, amplitude is correction.
Interesting to think that all that precise equipment was meant to be blown up. I guess missing a target is really expensive. Great tear down!
@ivo good luck hitting an F-16 using a missile from the 1950s
Who said we're comparing old technology against new technology in the battlefield
These IR seekers always seem to be some of the most impressive technology on this channel.
Sadly they are very rare to find, it only happens once in a while, and any missed opportunity never comes back again.
@@msylvain59 What a shame :(
@@msylvain59 ive been looking for a while with no luck
@@youngbloodbear9662 d and b militaria in the uk have some
@@fourtwo7612 oh thanks, looks like they only have R-60 heads right now but the price isn’t bad at all, the only problem I have is I’m in the US ill have to contact them about shipping
Excellent presentation ! Deep thanks !! Your presentation focuses just on the most essentional parts of this missile with very clear pronoucening, easy to understand.
Cool teardown. Thank you.
Merry Christmas.
The reason you can only spin the seeker's optical assembly and not swivel it is because the telescope assembly is caged (It requires the launch acceleration forces to uncage it).
It would be interesting if you could measure the diameter of the primary and secondary mirrors plus provide a detailed description of the reticle.
38:20 this wobbling is intentional as seeker would be unable to track the target once it is dead straight in its front. It also helps to search the target as seekers looks in circles around some spot. The balance screws are for elimination of vibrations caused by off center rotations.
I was expecting that you will disassemble the head more to see the blindings as there is all the engineering beauty which makes this deadly beast working so simple yet effective.
I don't believe that to be true. The inability to track a target at the center is integral to the design of a spin scan reticule as far as I am aware. To quote the US Navy handbook on the subject "The tracker loop drives to null the signal to zero. This occurs when the target is on the optical axis and the target image is at the center of the reticule."
It seems to imply that feature is part of its countermeasure resistance rather than simplifying guidance control (as I had guessed the latter). Presumably when the seeker starts to become influenced by countermeasures and begins drifting away from centering the target, the strong return from the intended target cutting in to interfere with flare tracking allows countermeasures more chance to drift from FOV compared to having the target return simply filtered out. As we might guess, since IR jammers don't drift from the FOV the spin scan is particularly susceptible to that attack.
I’m a amateur rocket builder (webuild in a team), and it is very interesting to see the difference between good (motivated, young, very up-to-date) amateurs compared to the professional thing. There is definitely a time gap. But in an industrial design, it has to be proven, easy to assemble etc. Thanks for making this available to us! 👍😊 Also the soviet dimension is really interesting to see. Sometimes I have the impression the the USSR was better organized/developed the russia today…. Thanks again! 👍😊
СССР был силой, не было частной собственности на средства производства.
Была диктатура пролетариата,но СССР сдал Хрущев после отравления Сталина.
По факту союза не стало в 1962году, дальше был откат в Капитализм и как кульминация сдача всего соцлагеря, и стран СЭВ в 1991 году.
Страну продали бывшие коммунисты.
Силой насилия был СССР, такого насилия ещё не придумала ни одна страна в мире. Через насилие работал Гулаг и все шарашкины конторы, а технологии крались у запада. А все совки ходили в не модных, деревянных обновках @@user-bi2ke8hd3p
Вы правы, СССР был лучше развит и организован!
@@user-bi2ke8hd3pК сожалению история повторяется, единороги враги России.
Another awesome video, Marry Christmas and a Happy new Year.
very nice videos sir !, even nicer workshop i must say ! Regards from VK3
Brilliant video, thanks very much
Woowww ..... The most interesting find of today! Great video. Great Job Sir!
Thnaks, make sure to check my other videos, I have more than a thousand of them, this playlist is a good place to start: ua-cam.com/play/PLpnL3w7u1Hr00jlB5P8gKp2rmIn0SEBIs.html
The Wikipedia page for the American AIM-9 Sidewinder missile explains in pretty good detail how its seeker head works. The K-13 was a reverse-engineered copy of the AIM-9, so the seeker on the K-13 undoubtedly works pretty similarly. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-9_Sidewinder#Design
Капитан очевидность
never expected to see somebody with your back round on such a channel, what a nice and connect world this is.
It is very similar but there are some subtle differences- details in the reticle, the lens supporting the secondary mirror, and the servo controlling the fins, that i know of anyways
Proportional navigation can be pretty much assumed if not specifically stated, and all anti-air missiles that I can think of use either proportional navigation or a modification of such. It really doesn't explain much of how the seeker actually works. Unfortunately I do recall reading a wikipedia page on IR seeker design talking about the Sidewinder and its description was very inaccurate. As with a great many people they seemed to conflate spin scan seekers and con scan seekers as though the same thing, and the description gave a mixture of the two very different, barely related technologies. The confusion likely resides in the fact that the AIM-9 used both, originally a spin scan before moving to a con scan design (before transitioning to future con scan related ideas like rosetta scan).
This seeker in this video is a very traditional standard spin scan design, with mild tweaks to the most basic reticule design for a very mild countermeasure rejection. It is likely what the original sidewinder missiles used, and very close to the literal textbook example.
the aim-9 was technology stolen by america from the germans of course
Super nice teardown! Et Joyeux Noël.
Hi, I think the fins on the black blind are there to reduce glare.
I remember reading about it on a Russian manual from where rbase took their info.
I'll try to post it or sent it through private message
Nice work mate, good to see this technology
33:15 Those black protrusions may be to prevent sunlight reflection from reaching the concave mirror. The reason why the concave mirror rotates crookedly may be to widen the viewing angle.
Are you going to reassemble the missile? Why worry about removing the potting?
Thanks for sharing such a rare item . 👍
Impressive ! Merry Xmas !
Thanks!
Few years back in Syria, rebels got their hands on lots of K-13 missiles, then they removed the seeker part and used rest of the body as unguided but very fast rockets to fire at enemies , At that time I was hoping the spread of these seekers in junkyards but no luck.
They must still be laying somewhere... Also, I remember seeing TV docs about rebels in Lybia, in which I spotted piles of old abandonned Soviet made military electronic equipment
recently the Chem Pluto ship was attacked by missile and i was shocked how the explosion happend once missile had penetrated the hull...the explosion was outward blast everywhere (from photos), not inward blast. This video explains the Fuze is in the FIN! brilliant.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year.
32:25 The seeker head track the target by rotational movement of the blinders, not by gimbal of the sensor element as you suggest.
The K-13 is just a copy of Sidewinder system which has sound feedback system for the pilot, commonly known as "growling" sound.
This growling is caused by heat being interrupted by rotating blinders which you shown at the beginning of the video.
By correlating the rotate angle and amplitude of the emission the seeker is able to estimate the vector and angle of missile correction (signal phase to amplitude conversion).
it does both, the shutters tell the missile which way the target is, then the seeker head starts transitioning into that angle to point itself at the target
The head is arreted then rotation speed is low. Nominal movement angle of mirror about 30 degree out of center axis. Sensing element also moved, but not rotated.
@@19Koty96 doesnt that only happen on missiles with an uncaged seeker? I thought being able to gimbal the seeker was the whole point of differentiating between caged vs uncaged seekers
@@erzhaider Yes; this will happen after launch, but with some you can force it while its still on the aircraft.
@@erzhaider The seeker must automatically uncage as it is fired or it won't be able to track the target. Caging the seeker is just to aid the pilot in acquiring the target. Either its caged to boresight so the pilot can point at the target without being obsessed with ground/friendlies/other or the missile (much later models) cage to the radar (or other sensors) making it dramatically easier to lock and launch during a dogfight. As the seeker field of view is as narrow as they can manage any motion would have the missile lose the target if the seeker remained caged after launch, and you'd essentially have an unguided rocket and not a proportional navigation guided missile.
what crazy things on ebay! 60k is actually slow for a turbogenerator. automotive turbos run around 100k rpm and this one looks really small in comparison.
Low power delivery though, it only has to provide around 100W or so peak, and has to be reasonably stable at around 800Hz to 1kHz to run the systems. From the block diagrams you can see magnetic amplifiers are used, so the operating frequency has to be well defined along with supply voltage, so there likely is a regulator as well somewhere in circuit to draw it to the right range.
it runs from a slow burn gunpowder cartridge! not a 12 gallon gasoline tank internal combustion engine
Thank you
Thank you.
You showed noting xD Dos it uses Franche ulis-ir/lynred sensor?
Very intresting? where did you get this components?
Happy grunting Christmas! :) You should remove the potting. The secrets must be revealed.
@msylvain59
what kind of watch ?
Have you seen soviet vacuum tube based guidance system? I think I found a remains of a very old one that had remains of two fairly large vacuum tubes and a circular metal base with two connectors and point-to-point components padded down in place by insulated plates._
Yes, at least this ua-cam.com/video/Dm81v2mHdts/v-deo.html and that museum.radioscanner.ru/avionika/aviomuzejs/raketa.html
Getting this to work reliably at high speed and vibration must take some fine tuning.
The written values on eastern bloc resistors I found incredibly helpful (being colourblind but having sharp eyesight).
joyeux noël et bonne année :)
I wonder was was the point of opting for the color code some day, because at the beginning all componants had written values on them. Not a noticeable gain of time imo, even more when the colors have not sharp enough (as orange and red than can look quite similar, or even get alterared other time, and will also depend of the light source you are using. Merry Christmas.
Jebać ukrainę i ukraińców !
15:38 "Wigle wigle wigle" Ahah ! I know where that come from
dude you must be some sort of a high level engineer. So I just graduated college with a materials science degree. I have little experience or education in terms of electronics and industrial design; wonder if you have a book recommendation for someone like me? or multiple? I know there are a bunch of materials floating around but I'd trust your words more than some others...
Need to fabricate some soft clamps from wood or plastic as disassembly tools for better grip.
I can't see a gimbal mount. Is the seeker straped-down to the rest of body? If so I can just imagine how limited those first generation seekers were. They must have had a few degrees FOV and no fancy guidance laws. There is no way one can implement proportional navigation without a guimbal mounted seeker.
What is the use of #Reticle , a black and white patterned Wheel placed between detector and incoming ir beam ? Shown on Google images
amplitude modulation - basically depending of angle to zero-axis, the signal gets interrupted longer or shorter, which the missile can somehow turn into guidance commands
@@erzhaider That's incorrect. The spin scan reticule has no ability to determine the angle of the return. People often seem to confuse the con scan design which can determine the angle with the spin scan which cannot. The angular thickness of the spokes is equal along the entire length of the reticule. That means that as the reticule rotates the duration of unblocked signal is independent to the angular deflection of the signal.
Think of the analogy, holding a flashlight and pointing it with your wrist at a spot on the wall. The reticule's only function is to say which direction the spot is in relation to the center of the flashlight. If you were to close your eyes and have a friend whisper directions into your ear, you wouldn't need a distance to get the spot centered. You only need your friend to keep repeating a direction until you're there. With a moving spot nothing would change.
The guidance package then reads the seeker angle and deflection, ie where the flashlight is pointed. It doesn't have any knowledge from the reticule, ie where the spot is in relation to the center of the flashlight. The AM point mentioned really only comes into play when comparing to a con scan reticule. The spin scan (this missile) is guided by on and off (ie AM), whereas the con scan is guided by varying frequencies (ie FM) where there are no "off" periods in a con scan reticule.
Merry christmas :)
where do you just get one of these
Very good teardown. From where you are getting this top secret devices?
All my parts come from ebay, usually in the military collectibles or aircraft parts categories.
There is nothing top secret about this…. It’s old tech
That potting material is easy to remove. Coats but does not stick well. The orange red stuff in US devices is a lot harder to remove. And the blue epoxy forget about it.
I love how youtube trys to subtitle his accent, some very interesting commentary 😂
I am left wondering how these ananlog guidence systems work
Hello ! The russian website I linked in the video description has some infos, Wikipedia has also some infos about infrared homing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_homing , an other source of details might be researching patents. In a very simplified way, it is some kind of a servo system...
Squirrels. Hold a nut in front of them in the direction of the target and they move the missile towards the target 😃
19:30 - look like as 15-pin game-port connectors😊
I think the burn marks are just paint that diffused into the potting material.
No, will be power resistors that are part of the power supply. Heater current is derived from the high voltage supply from the power alternator, so resistors to drop the voltage are needed. Running it during testing means you provide external power, and this heats up the resistors and the potting material. No transformer as that is extra mass removed from the warhead, and in use it only has to run for 5 minutes anyway after arming, as that is the limit for the endurance of the gas cryocooling used to cool down the sensor head to operating temperature.
In use you power up the missile from aircraft power, and this also opens a valve that bleeds high pressure nitrogen from a pressure bottle and expands it via an orifice, so making cold gas that is used to cool the pyroelectric sensor, making it lower noise, and also increasing signal output from it, as it works on temperature differential. Not sure of the missile having onboard or external cooling, but those fins on the secondary mirror are there to cool it as well, reducing it's IR emission, and the same for the primary mirror. Then when you fire it you start both the rocket motor and the gas generator, and this then provides the power for the missile and actuator power. The missile has to operate on wing to achieve lock before firing, and then you fire it and it carries on running to target. If lock is lost it will precess around on the long axis in larger and larger circles till it gets lock, or self destructs.
Ground testing part of the high pressure gas is used instead to run the actuators, and the alternator is disabled by a physical pin through the shaft. That way you do not have the arming circuit active and only the seeker, as they are isolated from each other by the design, plus there is a shorting link in the umbilical that disables the ignitor for the charge, plus another inhibitor for the proximity fuse as well. Most of the time this will have been run on the ground or on a test bench, in use it only has to run for 30 seconds, then it will either hit the target, or the self destruct timers will hopefully operate and detonate it.
Those can fail though, leaving the missile to crash intact, though then it is metastable, and any movement or rotation can cause it to finish the destruct sequence, if the mechanical timer has stuck just short of triggering. Most reliable thing is the initiator for the warhead, both mechanically and electrically, they always work, once triggered ether by power or by being hit.
It shouldn't be hard to determine what the potting material is and you could probably melt it off without damaging the potted electronic components.
Yea, so he can build a functional missile
@@xdestroyerx117 No so he can examine the circuit-boards and examine component values, he wouldn't be able to make a functional missile as he doesn't have the needed parts to build one. A lot of the electronic components are obsolete and long out of production.
@@nicholasmaude6906 you forgot we are in 2023 and parts can easily be manufactured by a 3d printer
@@xdestroyerx117 While that is true the design is obsolete, the thermionic valves for example have been out of production for decades and I doubt that they can be built using current 3D-printing.
@@nicholasmaude6906 thats true.
where are you finding this items? i cant find them in ussr. it has a newtonian telescope.
On ebay, but do not expect to just browse ebay and find the same thing, when such items pop up they are one time opportunities. When they are gone, they are gone forever.
пиздец сколько мы сил и ресурсов вложили, а наши политики все продали.
это те кому раздали эти ракеты, Афганистан, Алжир, Ангола, Болгария, Вьетнам, Китай, Куба ,Чехословакия, ГДР, Египет, Финляндия, Индонезия, Индия, Ирак, Ливия, КНДР, Польша, Румыния, СССР, Сирия, Йемен, это типа почти все союзники сейчас 🤣🤣🤣🤣 а так ракета старая
Это как раз мы скопировали)
"Разработка ракеты К-13 началась в ОКБ-134 в 1958 году. При разработке были использованы образцы предоставленной Китаем американской ракеты AIM-9 Sidewinder.
Ракета К-13 представляла собой почти полную копию американской ракеты, вплоть до того, что была совместима с оригиналом по запчастям."
Where do you buy this stuff?
Just ebay most the time, in military collectibles or aircraft parts categories.
@@msylvain59 I’ll have to take a look, I love the HUD assembly you found that’s so cool
Only one question. Where did you get it?
eBay Germany, military collectibles category, no info about how the previous owner got it
its old like dinosaurs
Il expected there would be a cooling for the infrared Sensor. Apparently not.
Check my Red Top seeker video, this one as a pipe for coolant ua-cam.com/video/LR-yfiG14gQ/v-deo.html
IR seekers is so easy to disrupt
It can almost be done with an TV
or carport remote.
That's like saying "you can propel an aircraft forwards if you just fart hard enough"
nice vid !
but tell me you're not french :P
Reverse engineered Sidewinder, is it not?
It is not, not even close. No Supercooled RDU.
@@elzippo488 I don't think the original Sidewinder had one.
Moskovitch head light.
You you some how plug this into your laptop pl to see threw the camera
LOL ya i wonder it will be 0.0003 MP camera :D nowdays we have 20 MP cameras in mobile and complaining of Quality while they used to hit F-16 with it
@@Xerox482 right
В ходе войны во Вьетнаме лётчики на МиГ-21 с помощью ракет Р-3С сбили, по минимальным оценкам, 76 американских летательных аппаратов. Здорово, что эта старушка оказалась в хороших руках.
Is K-13 an almost exact copy of AIM9B? So this seeker is probably almost exact copy of AIM9B, right?
true i belive its faster than the aim9b but has less range
Does anyone know what was the track record of these missiles in actual combat?
Nearly zero. However, the AIM4 Falcon missile actually shot down Mig 29s
@@aabb-zz9uw Really? When did an AIM-4 shoot down a Mig-29?
Its hard to say. Far lower than we might assume from modern missiles as they initially struggled with maneuvering targets, but at least the American models got some number of kills and I suspect the Russian renditions likely did too. However they had a massive deterrence effect. Before missiles like this were designed bombers would simply fly so high nothing could touch them. Having a weapon able to reliably destroy a non-maneuvering target at essentially any reasonable altitude meant that style of bomber attack was impossible. From that and SAMs the bomber had to transition to a low altitude attack run and either have clear skies or accept a reasonable risk of shoot down. Even had these missiles completely zero kills they essentially changed aerial warfare.
@@aabb-zz9uw all I see is 4 mig17s and 1 mig21, no mig29
the k13 saw very limited use in Vietnam and there is no record for kills
the k13 scored 4 recorded kills against F104 in the Indo-Pakistan war used by India
Do you have the name of the seeker head
Looks very reverse engineered copy from first generation Sidewinder missile they caught in Taiwan Strait.
It is a copy of the Sidewinder. If you don't know how an AIM-9 made it to the USSR, you missed a completely ridiculous story. It's so stupid, you won't believe it
Mais où vous êtes vous prrocuré un truc pareil ?
This would make a neat little telescope!
Transfer of technology.
How much did that cost?
It was 150 euros.
msylvain59 Oh wow that's not bad. On eBay?
@@demzerocool7475 yes
17:56 C'est un garçon !
Спасибо большое ❤❤❤
Some Aim9 engineer somewhere: arrg, damn russkies stole all my ideas!
Is that like how the Russians stole American space technology, while simultaneously bending America over a barrel during the space race?
Ok then
Primitive but impressive technology. It was copied from a Sidewinder which was fired by a Taiwanese F86 on a Chicom mig but the fuse didn't activate.Current IR missiles would be made of 3 CCDs, one powerful signal processing computer capable of identifying images from infrared signature, a fibreoptical gyro (as a ring laser gyro is to large for such a small missile) and servo mechanism included carbon thrust paddles.
@UCgg9rvXB9MIPYDrJeANsOUw это от ракеты воздух - воздух
Ну что, раскрыл секреты русского оружия 😁
Is this legal.
It was sold by the british airforce as surplus...
Knockoffs of the sidewinder?
100%
During Vietnam, an AIM-9 struck a MiG directly but failed to detonate, allowing it to be removed and studied.
Another one was stolen from a West German airfield, disassembled and posted to the USSR. Search for Mannfred Ramminger for the full story. It's kinda hilarious.
the russians have always been pioneers in rocket science.
@@fonesrphunny7242 link to that info?
where u got this Alien treasure lol
Simply on german Ebay... was 150 euros, a little expensive, but definitely worth it because there will most probably never be another one available !
@@msylvain59 wow cool , looks like some fallen missiles someone found and sold on ebay :) you seems have a lot of experience i think u should start OpenSource Missile on github LOL i think this can be build nowydays with Arduino rasberypi etc
33:00 - teardown video, "I will not take this apart"... time wasting video.
🧐🧐😇
This is just a copy of the AIM-9 Sidewinder US missle.
what about the modern russian hypersonic missiles? what are they copied from? usa don't have hypersonic missiles at all.
486 i alternator od poloneza.
It's seem like very very fit lol 17:24
Fantastic mastery of electronics in 1960s Soviet Union (contrary to public opinion).
Copy of Sidewinder AIM-9. Another proof soviets could only steal and buy from the West..
1. It's a copy of an American design
2. The story about how an AIM-9 made it to the USSR is so stupid, it shouldn't have happened in the first place.
@@fonesrphunny7242 how can u be sure. I see that "it's a copy" line all through the threads below....how do you know that's true?
@fonesrphunny7242 I bet he thinks Tu-4 was original design.
@@klam77 The agent who brought the missile into the USSR lived near me. It's a local story, although only the older folks remember it.
Search for Mannfred Ramminger for the full story.
And just look at it. It looks exactly like the AIM-9b and even has the stabiliser tabs at the rear fins. A revolution in missile technology and both sides just happen to come up with the exact same design? No way!
Direct copy of a gen 1 AIM-9. The gen 1 AIM-9 sidewinder was a very poor performer. These missiles would be ripple fired at a target because the pilots knew probably half would go stupid the second it left the rail. In Vietnam, they were adversely effected by the high humidity, causing even worse performance. In turn, the K-13 was dog crap.
Artifacts of more advanced civilization
Bro GO to the gym brota 🤣🤣🤣
Incompetent
Russians are not far from this old technological level. 😂
Ну и ладно, главное хуячит.
Parle en français qu’on puisse comprendre et en plus tu es français
В совке не было лицензии на шлиц от Philips, потому и крутили прямой шлиц))
Платы в совке были настолько плохого качества, еще и гетинаксовые, что все заливали лаком что б не отвалилось, а здесь залили пластиком.
Я разбирал американский инвертор компании Tripplite. Плата была залита лаком. Выходит, что она тоже плохого качества?
Лак - это защита плат от сырости и вибраций, а ни как не из-за "плохого качества".
I hope you have new underwear for change .
Crazy Russian hacker is that u?
Nice tutorial for stereotypical French accent imitation.
Wow. Watching a middle-aged man trying to open front part of the rocket certainly is not entertaining.
maybe its not your type my friend
American Components,Russian Components,
all made in Taiwan！😡😂😮
This is looking exactly like maverick. Just a bad looking copy
K13 ten years earlier.
kolejny ruski złom ...