Yeah i really don't know why Nintendo is trying to make it seem like he was never a thing the past few years, he only ever added to Peach in having a father figure advisor
@@MereMere It's because the numskull at Nintendo who had the dumb policy in place for no new unique Characters or species and bland copypaste trash is trying to remove him.
@@BananaReidy Him and all the other unique Toads we used to get, Toadbert anyone? Or Dr Toadley and his assistant (or female Toads in general besides Toadette)? Toad children?
@@geschnitztekiste4111 And most of those Toad characters are not just in cute outfits, some noticables come in their own shape, size, and unique hairstyles.
Also, for anyone who sees this, know that just because something isn't canon doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed or be a valid introduction or reintroduction to the series. Anyway, it was a real pleasure helping out a bit on this video! And, for the people at home... Play Snowboard Kids
@@gamerharpy205 media that intentionally isn't canon could even be a good thing because the devs can really experiment with an IP in ways the canon media can't just because its supposed to be canon
It isn’t classified as an adaptation though, and why buy the rights for the same old cliche and not take in any of the characters at all? Waste of potential
@@IDKALaN96 Hopefully yes, but I think the movie having a different canon is to help killing that monotone plot the Mario games had, so it doesn't make it like watching the same plot from the games
The canon of Mario is mostly overlooked by people because of things like, “he’s just a silly jumpy plumby boi he doesn’t have a canon” or “the characters are just actors so it doesnt matter”. I’m glad someone finally took it serious, heck I would even say it makes more sense than Sonic canon.
I'm one of those people who believe in the "Mario characters are just actors" because some games do make it obvious its staged *(like the New Super Mario Bros games having the enemies dance to the music, an audience clapping for the characters when they collect all the red coins; in Super Mario 64 the whole adventure is a movie directed by Lakitu with him following Mario around with a camera, Paper Mario series being a cartoon/book series, Super Mario Bros 3 being a play, Mario Galaxy with Mario being able to survive a black hole is definitely only something that would happen in a movie, etc.) but I also believe many of the games actually happened for real, the first game definitely happened in real life. And the game definitely do have a canon. I personally hate it when people act as if Mario games can't have a canon just because of all the fantastical stuff. It certainly does. Sonic canon is kind of confusing cause there's one where he lives on Earth but yet there's another where they are aliens on Mobius. There's also Classic Sonic who is for some reason another Sonic from another dimension despite originally being considered Modern's younger self in Generations. Heck, I love Kingdom Hearts to death but there might as well be no canon with how confusing the darn story and timeline is.
@briannawilson8845 Super Mario Bros 3 is a play, but it was also an event that actually happened. The play is just the framing device. Super Mare 64 is not a movie. When Lakitu first appears, he directly says that he's broadcasting the adventure, live. If anything, it's a live news stream, or a documentary. Mario doesn't actually fall into a black hole in Galaxy. And if he did, it would be cartoon logic. Mario is able to breathe in space, after all. Paper Mario is a bit trickier. Originally, they were normal adventures shown through the lense of a pop-up book. But the modern games showed that they actually happen in a parallel, paper world. Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam makes it pretty clear that the world's are parallel, and that all the characters are nearly identical to their real-world counterparts. The modern Paper games also reference real-world adventures several times. This indicates that the Paper Mario games happened in both the real, and paper worlds. And we're just seeing the paper world version of the events.
Sonic lore is more complex than Mario lore so I think it would make more sense logically. Even if it does have lore its not that super deep beyond a few things and characters.
I'm pretty sure the new game designers/producers for each upcoming title can come up with their own interpretation of the Mario lore and they aren't required to follow the previous game's events/story. If I remember correctly, the Yoshi's Island lore was just Shigefumi Hino's own version of Mario's origin just so the game mechanics he came up with can make sense and it's even presented as a bed time story. The same happened with the fan-servicey Odyssey, which is likely why Peach's castle differs from that in Galaxy and in 64. Basically Mario's lore is pretty much a modelling clay that creators can reshape to fit their own ideas for it the game they want to make.
Mario multiverse for short. Also, I wonder why they were expecting the movie to be canon when it's already a given that a movie form of something usually is it's own thing.
Mario is intentionally kept simplistic to allow for him to be placed in any situation. Despite this, there are extremely few contradictions. The Mario games indeed happen in their own individual bubbles, so they can be enjoyed by anyone without needing to play the other games. The lore and stories that developers have come up with have never really contradicted other games. No official game has ever referenced Brooklyn, for example. But at least 5 or 6 have referenced Yoshi's Island. There is a canon, and that canon is just "every official Mario game that came before." There's no direct timeline, but all the games still happened, and you could theoretically make your own timeline. Many mainline games even have explicit continuity, such as SMW, which is a direct sequel to SMB3. And SMG1, SMG2, Captain Toad, 3D World, and NSMBUDX, which are all intentionally connected in certain ways. Peach's Castle looking different in one game isn't really evidence that there is no canon. I think many would agree, that in a bubble, the Mario & Luigi series has a clear continuity between its titles. But the Mushroom Kingdom, and Peach's Castle? They look different in Superstar Saga, and in Partners in Time, and in Bowser's Inside Story, and in Paper Jam. Despite clear continuity, the appearance of the world is different. This is because they will only show you want is necessary to the gameplay and story of that game. They're not gonna show Thwomp Mountain in Bowser's Inside Story, or Rock Candy Mines in Odyssey. Because they're irrelevant. But that doesn't mean they ceased existing. Sorry for rambling so much, but I do not believe your argument is really proof that the games have no canon. I get your points, and you can continue to believe what you want to. But to me, it's very clear that Mario has a canon. Even if it's not focused on much.
yes utterly disgustin how yoshi island was disrespected and yoshi himself sidelined to a mere few seconds of cameo n end cridit!! o shiggy in ur lust for the $$$ u lost sight of ur own games canon... but that said i enjoyed the movie. and the homage to super super is long over due. even tho its non canon. it was a fun show. hyped for mama luigi n yoshi in movie number 2. 😁
In my opinion this is the true answer to Mario canon. Miyamoto even confirmed it when he called them "a troupe of actors" He compares them to cartoon characters. "If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games."
@@hajilee4539To be fair, he refers more to the sense of Characters fitting into any game genre(RPGs, sports, Platform etc.) Rather than actual actors. If Mario really follows the cartoon rule, the characters wouldn't be consistent as they are
21:40 That is a retcon. Originally, "Small Mario" was Mario's normal form, while getting a Super Mushroom turned him into Super Mario. The modern games have retconned Super Mario to be his default state, as opposed to a powered-up state it was originally intended to be.
@@AscendedEmperor Sonic officially have a canon actually, full of inconsistencies but Sega wants one. Mario doesn't have an official canon AND doesn't have a consistent universe = there is no Mario canon
I am *SO GLAD* you acknowledged the official Mario Maker level, "Did Somebody Call a Plumber?" I love that stage, because it canonized in the games the old "Mario and Luigi took a warp pipe from the big city to the Mushroom Kingdom" story! Sure, it's New Donk and not Brooklyn like it was in the old cartoons, but I still think the Brothers being from a big New York-esque city and stumbling into heroism makes them more relatable, as these blue collar everymen. That Mario Maker level is seriously one of my favorite pieces of Mario lore because - prior to its existence - I had basically been resigned to the idea that Yoshi's Island completely supplanted the old warp zone backstory. But nah, they can both coexist!
Gotta agree, there was also technically Donkey Kong ‘94 but it wasn’t completely certainly that it lead to Super Mario Bros, it more so seemed like the game that just set Mario to live in the Mushroom Kingdom again. In fact in an interview about the ending from a couple of the devs, one being Miyamoto, they imply this lead to him splitting off from Pauline so I guess that’s that, haha.
@@superresch64 Could you find that interview for me? That sounds interesting if true! I really like the idea of Mario and Pauline being these amicable exes who still like and respect each other, even if their relationship didn't work out. So hearing that Miyamoto intended for that to be their breakup is interesting!
I don’t remember the actual source but I can quote the interview with the best translation I have saved since it was in Japanese! “Question: Is Pauline Mario’s girlfriend? Kameyama: She is his old girlfriend (laughs). Miyamoto: There is a Mushroom Kingdom around Donkey Kong’s headquarters at the end of the game. I guess that’s where he meets Peach and changes his mind (laughs). Kameyama: So this is before Super Mario Bros. And after that, Mario became famous and Pauline must have been dumped (laughs.)”
Although this does suggest SMB1 came after personally I believe DK94 is from after Mario already saved Peach and he started to slowly develop feelings for her after he returns from the city and finally moved into the kingdom proper.
@@superresch64 I see. Some of that is outdated of course, since in the current story, Mario and Peach met when they were both babies. But I like to think that the other parts are still true.
Imagine if in the movie Mario and Luigi found out they grew up in the Mushroom Kingdom, but something happened where they had to live in Brooklyn. There's no way, but imagine
As someone who wished the movie would stick closer to the games than it seems to be and was noting differences because of that, I definitely found this video informative. You mentioned quite a bit of the changed details I hadn't noticed before (and I never knew there was a difference between a service and construction plumber; you learn something new every day). I do like that you don't really put down the movie for those differences either, you just inform about them. I feel more able to watch the movie and appreciate it as its own thing after the video, believe it or not. #BramballNation
As always, Americans are jealous of something that should have been a Japan-United States collaboration and not Japan and any other country that is not theirs. As if to say that they know Japan perfectly well than the Japanese themselves. The US film industry has already shown that they do not respect Japanese anime (Dragon Ball Evolution, Double Dragon, Street Fighter, Death Note, etc, etc etc) stories and Shigeru Miyamoto does not want history to repeat itself with his beloved creation
I feel like this will have its own canon for Nintendo’s cinematic universe. With them officially making Nintendo Pictures a film company, it seems like they wanna make the films separate from the stories they wanna tell in the games.
@@Benja04 well given the Mario devs don't care for story its possible the movieverse can be part os the gameverse or just a game based on the movieverse that is theorised to happen
@@Doktario_Mystario though the creator of Mario did focus more on the gameplay he still cared about making the characters clear and for them to have a story he made rosalinas storybook and there’s official comics and gives character backgrounds in the guidebooks it’s not like the movie makers couldn’t have taken in the characters a little bit and why make up your own story? Just make your own characters.. Seems like a waste of potential and they just bought rights to a fandom with an audience and not going to take in the real deal sad 😢
@@happymila1 i have seen the Mario Movie and i have to say, i can see it being cannon to the "gameverse" 1) New Donk City: the movie gives the possibilety that Brooklyn is like a smaller part of New Donk City. Thinking more of this it makes more sense that Mario would save Pauline from DK if Pauline is already a mayor. This is also more likely because Pauline is a important figure in the Mini Mario series 2) DK & Cranky Kong: these characters are clearly rewritten but given that the Kongs and the mushroom kingdom don't collab (in games where the story is serious) it can make sense i guess 3) as far the comics, i can't say anything about it because i haven't read them
Always cool to see Sean break down the Mario knowledge. Of course the movie is different but its really fun seeing you guys do comparisons to game lore. Looking forward to the follow up when movie is out
I am not much of a new fan, for in mid 2000s I used to play the original arcade and Super Mario 3 on GameBoy Advance. Until mid 2010s I never even knew what Super Mario 1 and 2 would look like, until I found them either as Flash games adaptations and online SNES emulators. Then I never played anything Nintendo-related. I knew the universe and the fandom were doing well, since big titles and new consoles still were in my media field. However, we would not purchase any of them and, since I could not play them, I was losing interest quite fast. Recently, however, I purchased Nintendo Switch and it sucked me in. I immediately fell in love with snes emulator, The New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe and Super Mario 3D World. Therefore, my interest with the fandom was rekindled like it never was before. I enjoyed the movie and I think that, even though it is very safe and cautious, cliche-addicted (a classic Illumination approach in my opinion), it is quite faithful and fun to watch. Thank you very much for pointing out differences in canon and giving me quite some curious details about Super Mario lore I never knew before! Waiting for PART 2 you have mentioned! ^^
Agreed. Bowser may be evil but Paper Mario has shown us by now that Bowser cares greatly for his army and wouldn't forget them like that. This is the only issue I have tho.
@@jaco8822 agreed, it's just the "whatever those things are!" joke was lame and out of character. they could have picked any obscure enemy in Bowser's army to be the butt of that joke, but they picked one who is consistently tied to one as well-known as Lakitu.
Well, peach being an independent warrior isn’t anything new in the Mario franchise. A big example of this would be the “Super Mario Adventures” comic series.
Seriously one of the most well-crafted videos I have seem this year. I absolutely love the structure and vibe! Also the amount of deep knowledge brought into this is absolutely impressive. Even I as a rather huge Mario fan wasn't aware of some things mentioned in this video. Good job, I really enjoyed this! Keep it up :)
Very glad to hear that! I kinda felt like maybe putting that lore stuff in would detract from the video, but it was a lot of fun to share, and it's cool to know that it's actually resonating with people!
Yeah, its kinda hard to make a Mario timeline without looking insane. With stuff like DK playing tennis with the child version of his dad and what not.
While my dream movie would be super strictly canon, I do also kind of appreciate a take like this. It kind of reminds me of Paper Mario 64, which had a lot of worldbuilding and took a lot from then-recent games, (though admittedly most of the Yoshi's Island stuff was relegated to its own island) and GameCube era interpretations of the Mushroom Kingdom. Honestly, the main draw of the movie for me are the environments and soundtrack, which seem super promising, and I wouldn't mind if Nintendo took a few cues, such as the Toad Town layout or Ice Palace. Shame they screwed up the geography though, Mario Odyssey just came out and it contradicts it pretty heavily. (Though it also adheres to some of the rules that game introduced oddly, like the Kingdom naming conventions. Nintendo's priorities are a bit weird lol)
And personal theory: Given the way Donkey Kong seems to be making a comeback, I wouldn't be shocked to see it called the Jungle Kingdom in official media as well as some of the other details that match up with the theme park. There might be more brand synergy going on with DK than meets the eye and Illumination might be following Nintendo's instructions on that end
@@creedecriswell634 No I'm actually super hyped! Not being my ideal thing isn't a problem. (Nothing should be lol) I'm not expecting to laugh much, but Mario's characterization seems very on point and I think that's eons more important than the orientation of landmasses, even if I personally dig that stuff
You know, maybe in the Donkey Kong Movie, they reveal that he is indeed the Grandson or adopted son or Cranky Kong because his real father died when fought King K. Rool or other dimensional Villain
One thing I’ll note is that the plots of both Mario movies are very similar,also at least in a lot of the older games Small or as he was originally know Little Mario was his canonical form before learning of the super mushrooms
Feel free to discuss your thoughts in the comments. Please be civil and have an open mind. If you disagree with any of our interpretations, or you'd like us to elaborate, I'd be happy to respond to any comments I can. We are aware that some of the stuff we said will turn out to be wrong. Please do not spoil anything to correct us. We will address those points in Part 2. after the film has released, and we've seen it. EDIT: Yes, I know it having a separate canon is implied. However, quite a few people are treating the Mario movie as if it were an official origin story for the games, rather than an adaptation. This video is less of a "Ha, you're wrong!" type of video, and more of an informative one. I'm obsessed with Mario and would love to share my vast knowledge with everyone.
But that is the definition of canon, that's why The Bible has multiple testaments on Jesus, and why Rashomon is one of the most lauded films of all time and NOT a lambasted, inconsistent mess. Mario universe is explicitly about CANON of multiple realities existing in the active memory of the characters: welcome, new Galaxy. It is to introduce this basic idea to VERY backwards western speaking world, who have difficulty understanding historical records, instead opting to believe a DELUSION that a historical RECORD is the 1:1 material FACT of what did happen. That is inability to differentiate fiction from reality, basic Plato's cave that you're still missing the meaning of.
NON-MAJOR MOVIE SPOILERS 20:26 i'm actually surprised this little detail (sorta) made it into the movie - you can see goombas in the same prison luigi is in! what they did is up to interpretation, but i like to think that it's a parallel to how the gameverse has goombas on the side of both good and evil
@ZyNye2011 I'll be 100% honest. I was a hater, too. Because it IS a cash grab for trashy B-list celebrities. But I pirated it and watched it.. because you can't blindly hate. It's decent. I liked it. It's not a terrible movie. But it still is terrible that they've done this and let Chris Pratt voice Mario. One can be a fan of the film, and still be critical of its cash-grab bullshit.
@lococomrade3488 Seriously, it's so difficult to care or credit this movie when it's blatantly cynical and irreverent towards towards to the original source material once you fully analyze it and pay attention to the interviews. It's already a badly made movie because it suffers from the typical writing sins that Illumination movies love committing, but it's even worse than the 1993 adaptation in terms of being an adaptation of the Mario franchise.
This is all impressive the amount of research that went into this. And this might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think it matters that much. Let me explain. Only the die hard fans like myself are going to notice the inconsistencies between the movie and game lore. Sticking too close to the game lore makes it hard for film makers to have their own creative freedom. Remember, most Mario games don't have a ton of story (with a few exceptions of course). This makes it easy for the developers pointing you towards a straightforward goal and letting the player play the game in a matter of minutes with very little cinematics to explain the situation. That doesn't translate to film very easily, so changes are made to simplify lore to better suit the narrative the film company is going for. Actually, I'm very impressed with how close to the games this movie seems to be. Its clearly one of the most accurate adaptations we've seen as most Video Game movies don't even try to relate to the source material at all. Sure these nitpicks do establish the many changes from the games to this movie adaptation, but compared to almost every other Video Game movie in existence this one seems to be surprisingly faithful to the games these characters are based on.
Personally, I would've liked them to make a brand new story in the already established Mario universe. But I appreciate that they were able to create their own universe so they could do whatever they want. It definitely gave them much more freedom.
I agree. Also the Mario series has little to no worldbuilding, trying to respect all the insignificant details while also making a new story out of them wouldn't be worth the effort. It's not like with Pokemon where the world itself is the whole appeal.
Well, from various aspects, it can be seen that the film will tell its own story far from the canon of the games, such as the Mario manga (Mario Kun) and the animated series that tell their own story of the character not related to the games.
Well, yeah. It decanonized as soon as it showed the Mario bros. were from Brooklyn. And on top of that, there are SEVERAL changes in the film vs the games. It’s just an adaptation. Like the super show.
Yeah, glad other people see it that way too, some people would just assume Brooklyn hasn’t been retconned despite New York hardly ever being mentioned in association with Mario since the 90’s especially after Yoshi’s Island and Donkey Kong ‘94, haha.
@@superresch64 Nice mention of DK 94. Not enough people bring it up. Yeah, Brooklyn and the “real world” has been retconned for a almost 30 years- and even then, it was only ever “canon” in the west. It was retconned as soon as Yoshi’s island released. And then with Odyssey, while not explicitly stated, it’s insinuated new donk is the “big city” from various past Mario games- Wrecking crew, DK94, etc. I am willing to admit that the Brooklyn backstory makes for a better, or maybe, more relatable story for the big screen.
@@MrMindCloud Glad you agree, it’s pretty much good as confirmed they are the same city, possibly different parts of it but that doesn’t really matter. Brooklyn isn’t horrible for another adaptation but it’s not ideal for actual canon at this point.
You know what else doesn't have an official timeline? The Kirby series. The director of the Kirby series confirmed last year that there is no timeline for the games. Yet I think everyone would agree that Kirby has a canon. I doubt Sonic has an official timeline either. Yet most people would agree that Sonic has a canon. Not having a timeline doesn't mean anything.
@@seandwalsh3 "No canon Mario games contradict each other". And how do you decide if a game is canon or not? Do you just pick and choose based on If it makes sense?
@@seandwalsh3 Well now things are getting really weird. Just to confirm you think that very Mario and Luigi RPG is canon, except for the last one Paper Jam? Just cause? Also Nintendo published games like Mario pinball. Please don't tell me you think that is canon too.
@@hajilee4539 the Mario & Luigi games are clearly and explicitly canon, including Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. I have no idea why you’d exclude that. Yes, Mario Pinball Land (I presume that’s what you’re talking about) is absolutely canon. It has no reason not to be.
Hot take: The instruction manual for the original Super Mario Bros. isn't canon. If toads really were transformed into objects, it would be mentioned in later games. Instead, the objects that the toads were apparently turned into continued to exist after Super Mario Bros, without any mention of toads being transformed again.
The manual is still canon, they reference that original story as canon material frequently. They were just turned into preexisting objects. If you got turned into a frog that doesn’t mean Frogs don’t exist naturally.
Really enjoyed the video by the way, even as someone who could already tell it wasn't canon, it was a great fun watch regardless and was super interesting and funny!
To be fair a lot of people also assumed otherwise because either they don’t really care that much or they say that Mario has minimal, inconsistent, or no canon regardless.
Mario's dad is in the movie. Most likely that's who battled Cranky Kong when he was the original Donkey Kong. DK Junior is probably just out for revenge. Also, there are some licensed plumbers who work as both construction and service plumbers, doing calls when there aren't any construction jobs.
@@EthanMiguelScott We don’t know for sure what his role even is yet or if that’s true really. I kind of doubt that will be the case though but who really knows I wouldn’t be surprised knowing how many liberties this film has already taken.
DK the second abandoned the family for whatever reason when DK was a kid/baby and cranky took DK in and raised him as his own without ever acknowledging DK the second Hence DK calling cranky his dad It’s not that difficult guys
Masterpiece of a video. I had hoped to break the 776th like considering how dear Ancient Fire Emblem (1990-2010) is to me, but it would be less than an hour before this video breaks one thousand. For me, the main appeal of Mario besides the bombastic gameplay is how rich its world is. To a lot of people, Mario may seem silly on the surface, but it actually has so much more nuance if you look hard enough. Look at Bowser's full personality, for example.
True. Sometimes it feels like if something's not canon to the main continuity, its story doesn't matter, but it can definitely be pretty freeing to realize that it can just exist as its own thing.
Despite there being NO **established** canon there really isn't really any contradiction due to the fact Shigeru says every version of Mario we've seen in is just a role for him to play and the rest of the cast are literally the same way(As Creator of the franchise this should definitely take precedence over any other argument made by literally anyone else THAT isn't an author/dev etc.) There are no different continuities either, all iterations of the cast are the same, there are even references in the RPG games where characters refer to Mario not being in his 3D form or paper etc. At this point aside from the more mainstream games and some comic/manga adaptations, most of those extra extra games and animations are all just a staged act and some are actually legitimate adventures.
Miyamoto's quote was that the characters are "like a family, or a troupe of actors." Bur they aren't literally a cast of actors. That merely refers to the fact that the characters can be placed into any scenario and still work well. There is no "established" canon, bur there is a canon nonetheless. And there is very clear continuity across several games. Miyamoto did indeed say there is only *one* Mario in the games, but that one is _not_ an actor.
Great video! I’m so excited for the Mario Movie to come out soon, even if I am frustrated from the confusion it may cause for some audiences, I’m willing to appreciate it as it’s own thing. Besides, seeing an animated Mario Movie on the big screen has been a childhood dream come true.
I don't give a shit,I consider the animated movie canon,and it'a a trillion times more canon than the shitty embaressing live action we got when I was a kid
0:33 sonic movie 2 would’ve been a better comparison as that movie was more accurate to the source material and wasn’t playing it safe like the first movie where as the Mario movie also isn’t playing it as safe like sonic 2 so I feel like that would be a better comparison
Yeah, that's fair. I was intending on mentioning both the Sonic films, but in the end, I just glossed over the first one. It was just to be an example of a recent game movie that people generally accepted as having its own separate continuity.
If there's 3 Donkey Kongs (Cranky, Junior, and DK) wouldn't it make sense for the movie DK to be Junior and the while DK went to go get his own island being DK island somewhere else while his Junior is the new Kong king while cranky is with DK on his island since he's older in the games?
@@superresch64 well due to how myimoto is treating the movie at the least Mario and Luigi's origin will change to broklin rather than the mushroom kingdom
It's apparent that Nintendo/Illumination are going the MCU route taking elements from past stories to create their own continuity and cinematic universe.
I love it regardless of it not being canon, first I cared when the sonic movie was a thing but after watching both, I appreciate it as it's own canon. This movie is canon just to itself, a cinematic universe just how the MCU doesn't exactly follow the comics, both which I love. I'm glad super duper glad that this movie unlike Sonic so far (which I did like not expecting to giving Sonic a different personality more like a child's and giving him a family) is sticking way more closer to the source material with a heck load of references to so many games than it could have been.
Based on young Dks personality, it wouldn't surprise me if it's revealed in the sequel that the dad died, the son craved paternal affection, and grandpa whose slowly getting dementia mistakes the two. DK in the films kind of roled with anything, so it wouldn't be weird for him to play into the fantasy. If his grandpa raised him instead of his bio dad then he may actually view his grandpa as his father figure.
Here's a thought. Maybe that imprisoned goomba was a descenter? Wich would naturally indicate their still mushroom kingdom citizens, just like in games verse! Feel free for discussions guys! I'm.
*NOTE: I'm making this comment without researching anything on the Internet, as I don't think it's worth it to do that for a UA-cam comment. Besides that, I DO agree with you that it's probably another canon, I'm just going to talk about parts that I think you didn't get right or that I don't directly think you didn't get right but no proof confirms you got them right.* 2:41 Is there actual proof for this tho? Maybe they were born in Brooklyn and got delivered to the mushrooms. Or, as you say, it's likely that they were born in the Mushroom kingdom and moved to New Donk City, for the they're not humans and the Brooklyn parts, well, first of, that interview, or at least the part you showed, doesn't say anything that claims they aren't human, and in fact, in Yoshi's island, their parents seem to be humans, so it would make sense for them to be humans too. Now for the Brooklyn part, I don't have much explanation on this one, maybe they just moved from Brooklyn to New Donk City?? We don't know the movie's history after all, maybe we see them in New Donk City at some point. 6:08 Well, I'll argue that's not the case. Do we 100% know that SMB1 happened JUST AFTER Mario and Luigi got to the mushroom kingdom? Maybe it happened after some time which could mean that Mario and Luigi could have already had another adventure there. And for the overalls, well, we're assuming that both, the old overalls and the Mario Maker level are canon, then, why didn't Mario wear his old overalls in that level? I mean, there IS a costume that has Mario's old overalls. 11:57 It depends on the game, however, right now I can't remember any game where this is the case but Paper Mario, which is canonically a book inside the gameverse (God damn there are too many canons, the gameverse could even be a videogame, or even another book, inside the movieverse and that would explain everything!), and besides that, as you said in Paper Mario she usually uses her wits, but I believe there was one game where she did indeed just fight- Oh true, *Super Princess Peach.* 13:54 That's just- Just no. We could apply that same logic to justify almost every inconsistency between the movie and the games, for example, Mario and Luigi origins, we could just say "But that was one movie" to justify any inconsistency between the movieverse's origins and the gameverse's origins and thus say the movies IS canon but has an inconsistency that should be ignored as it's only one movie. Also please, don't go saying in the comments that the Mario canon doesn't have any inconsistency after saying this in the video, unless you consider the Kongs a different canon, which may I ask, how, and may I also ask, if that's the case why are you talking about it in this video. About the Mario Kart part (No timestamps as I'm pretty much talking about everything in that part) Who knows, maybe when the first Mario Karts take place all of these cars were already invented, but they didn't use them for races for some reason, maybe they were pretty new and there were almost none of them so they reserved them for important situations? No proof says this is correct, but no proof says it isn't correct, so who knows, maybe this, or another logical reason, could have been the case. 19:15 Maybe in the Mario lore New York and New York are the same thing, just they have different names for some reason. 19:34 Any proof? Maybe we end up seeing them in the movie chasing Bowser's minions and end up being sucked by the pipe. 2:03 This makes me remember, in games like NSMBW and NSMBU we don't even see Toad Town anywhere near the castle, so, again, don't go saying in the comments that there aren't any inconsistencies in the gameverse. 20:20 Maybe the Toads trimmed them this way because they thought they looked nice. 20:23 Maybe they WERE in the mushroom kingdom prior to the events of SM3DW but we just didn't see them in any game. 20:26 Any proof this isn't the case in the movieverse? 20:49 As I said before with the Toad Town thingy, inconsistencies like these also happen pretty frequently in the gameverse. 21:18 Maybe they used to be inverted but something happened or maybe for some reason they just liked being floating at some times and not at others. 21:36 It could be that Mario was in his small state but, because of another inconsistency between the gameverse and the movieverse, he looked normal. Also if they randomly heal and they randomly make you go from small to normal, who says that they don't randomly make people twice as big as they were? We just may never see them do this before, doesn't mean they can't do this in the gameverse 21:48 And finally, maybe there ARE Bramballs outside of the jungle in the gameverse but we just never saw them, as you said, or maybe this one is unique and there aren't more of them outside of the jungle, idk maybe someone brought it here, again, there's simply no proof. #BramballNation Phew, I've finally ended this, it's currently nighttime, it wasn't when I started making this comment LMAO
Hey, thanks for going through the effort to write a response! I'll try to answer and give my reasoning on everything I can. 1) The final line of Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's New Island says "Heroes are born," and the stories both start with explaining how the stork is delivering them to be born. Therefore, they were born in the Mushroom Kingdom 2) The interview doesn't directly say Mario is human, but it's implied by what the spokesman said. The only interpretations could be either "Yes, he is human, just from the Mushroom Kingdom," or "No, he's not human. He's from the Mushroom Kingdom." I think the first option makes more sense. 3) Super Mario Bros didn't happen _immediately_ after Mario Bros, but it happened soon after, at least. We know that Super Mario Bros is Mario's "first adventure." 4) The reason the Mario Maker level used the modern Mario costume, is because Luigi is also represented in the level, and he doesn't have a classic costume in the game. Also, the bros canonically wore blue overalls during the events of Mario Bros. I like to headcanon that the blue overalls were their work outfits, and after they got to the Mushroom Kingdom, they changed into their casual outfits (the classic outfits). 5) 6) In Super Princess Peach, Peach has the help of Perry the parasol, which allows her to fight more directly. In Super Mario Bros 2, Mario RPG, and 3D World, she attacked more directly, but she was also traveling in a group with Mario. 7) The Cranky Kong stuff is an interesting case. But calling DK his son _once_ over 20 years ago, but never before that point, and never again since, makes it an exception. This cannot be applied to the movie, because it's current. It's possible that some members at Rare were trying to retcon Cranky into DK's dad at that time. So at that point it would've been a retcon, rather than a contradiction. But for the past 20 years, Cranky has always been referred to as DK's dad. Meaning if it was intended to be a retcon, Nintendo immediately ignored it, and acted like it never happened. DK canon is indeed linked to Mario canon, btw. 8) What you said is possible, but I personally find it unlikely. Nothing much more to say there. I cannot prove or disprove anything. 9) New York cannot be New Donk, as New York is in a version of real-world New York. New Donk is on Mario's planet, and has its own differences and landmarks, such as flying taxis, and a city center on top of a towering power plant. Brooklyn seems pretty clearly meant to be the real deal in the film, and not an altered Mario world version. 10) In a TV spot from a few weeks ago, we see Mario getting sucked into the pipe. In none of the Brooklyn sewer footage do we see any minions. The bros seem to be alone. It's possible some minions will appear in the actual film, but I doubt it. 11) Bowser frequently attacks Peach's Castle and Toad Town in the games. This is likely why they look so different every few games. They're rebuilt and remodeled constantly. Regarding location and geography changes, this isn't a big deal. Notice how the Mushroom Kingdom map is wildly different between Partners in Time, Bowser's inside Story, and Paper Jam. The Mario & Luigi has a clear timeline and continuity, yet the locations change quite a bit. This is because they only show what is relevant for the game. Toad Town isn't necessary for most games, which is why it's not shown in the NSMB games. 12) The Super Bell Trees thing doesn't matter, ultimately. It's just an aesthetic choice that stands out for being based on a non-Mushroom Kingdom tree. 13) It is indeed possible that Clear pipes were in the Mushroom Kingdom prior to 3D World, albeit rarely. Mario & Luigi seem surprised to find one in the intro, but perhaps it was just because it was in the middle of the path, and shouldn't have been there (the Sprixie Princess probably built it mere moments ago, to escape Bowser). 14) There is no evidence to show that the Goombas defected in the film. This is just a hunch. They seem pretty beast-like and wild, which could be evidence for either/or. 15) I think it'd be more likely that these are separate inverted pyramids, but the location is clearly based on Tostarena, with red sand and the same pillar and cactus designs. It was likely just an oversight that the main pyramid is floating, and has 4 sides instead of 6. 16) Movie Mario cannot be in his small form. The tall form is supposed to be the default, so it would be weird if he and Luigi start out in their small forms. Especially since they're sized like the rest of the normal humans in Brooklyn. 17) It is in fact possible that Super Mushrooms might be able to make people grow taller than normal. However, the nature of Super Mushrooms leads me to believe this is not the case. Mushrooms in the RPG games _heal_ Mario. This implies that Super Mushrooms merely have healing properties. So Mario getting big from eating a Mushroom implies that his small form is a "damaged" state that needs healing. 18) I may have lied about Bramballs 😬 They appear in a grassy plateau course - Shelltop Sanctuary - in Mario Golf: Super Rush. -- Keep in mind that, even if some of these _are_ inconsistencies, it doesn't show that Mario has an loose, or nonexistant canon. The Kirby series also shares a lot of the same "issues," such as changing geography/locations, oversights, and exceptions. Yet Kirby is still seen as having a canon. Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond! Even if we disagree on stuff, it's cool to see people at least interested in my viewpoint, and what I have to say.
@@DaNintendude 1) Oh yeah that makes sense 2) Oh wait, I thought what you meant in the video by that was saying Mario wasn't human, now that I think about it, you said it because that confirms Mario was born in the Mushrooms Kingdom, right? 3) Interesting, I'm curious to know where this information comes from. 4) Fair enough. 6) Also fair enough, but I personally believe that if she's with Perry during the whole game and that's why she fights more directly the same thing could be happening in the movie, like, from what we've seen she's always with Toad and Mario, never alone. 7) Yeah that makes sense, but what I mean is, if that happened and well, that game's canon too, even if something about it isn't canon, couldn't the same thing happen with the movie? I mean with how many differences there are it's unlikely, but still possible, after all the movie didn't come out yet, so maybe it's closer to the games than it looks like, unlikely, but possible. 9) I'm getting a bit lost here, pretty sure New York in the movie was announced in a trailer I didn't see, so I can't really say much here. 11) Yeah, but the thing is they also seem to be in different places, and it is possible that they could find a different place to rebuild it, but after all, why put the effort into doing that? It's not like any of those places are hidden, besides Bowser has got flying ships and a lot of minions, pretty sure he could find Peach's new castle without any effort, and I doubt Peach and the Toads are unaware of this. 15) True, I didn't think about that while making the comment. 16) Wait but, why can't they be in their small form, maybe all humans are just in their small form, after all, if a small form does exist in the movieverse, it's most likely what would usually be normal Mario in games. And if their normal form is their default form, why do we start as small Mario in a lot of games? Also I just realized that in NSMBW everyone is in their normal form in the cutscene but suddenly become small without any explanation. I do agree Mario has a canon, and, as I've said, I agree with you that this is most likely a new canon. However, I do believe Mario canon can be a little bit inconsistent at times, usually it's not, but there are some things, such as the castle and Toad Town always changing, that while could have an explanation and are definitively possible I find unlikely, but still definitely possible.
Honestly, I don’t see the movie as canon. I mostly see this movie as a different interpretation of the Mario story. Thanks for explaining all in this video before though!
Mario canon doesn't really exist. It's created intentionally that way. There are consistentcies in some areas and inconsistencies in others. Personally, I think the movie is canon because it takes bits and pieces from everything Mario that has ever existed and I couldn't be happier with what we got! I was over the moon when they went with the Brooklyn origin story for the brothers.
I've seen the Super Mario Bros. Movie and the movie was really good, and I think a lot of the inconsistencies has to do a lot with the fan service, especially some of it is directed towards nostalgia that many people had with the Mario franchise. It's honestly like Spider-Man: No Way Home to me, having a lot of fan service while still being a very good and enjoyable movie. So that's why the lore inconsistencies don't get to me very badly. And my only complaint, if any at all, was the Mario movie was a little shorter in length than I thought it was going to be. Also, don't listen to critics' reviews and go see the movie for yourself. Even though critic rating score Rotten Tomatos is 59%, the audience rating score on the other hand is 96%, and the audience score is the one I have to agree with.
Oh my god , you seriously want this movie to be an exact replica of the game ? Also complaining about such minor details than nobody would even think of
But canon in relation to what? I never understood why people use the argument ' it is not canon' when refering to different incarnations of a given media, specially when projects like Marvel let clear the concept of Multiverse. The animated show has its own canon, the 90's movie has its own canon, the games has its own canon and also this movie has its own. Every one of them are valid media canons and that doesn't means there is one that invalidates the others. You should use the 'it is not canon' thing only to solve arguments that contradict themselves within the same continuity. That will be then another continuity as a result.
The "not canon" thing is just for the video's title. I believe in thr video itself we immediately clarify it's just a separate continuity. But that doesn't roll off the tongue well for a video title, lol
The Kongs making karts made sense because Diddy Kong Racing had more of a story than Mario Kart, and they have a tradition of starting every word with a K instead of a C 🤓
@@gooey7209 I mean as in; It can give us a hint as too Mario's backstory while not being official. Kind of like the FNAF books explaining things in the games while they aren't canon.
I hope it's good and the trailers are being tuned for normies but.... between how not good the voices are (by which I mean how little they fit the characters)... "current year" Toadstool as well as soon as I heard the, "It's on... like Donkey Kong!" line... and it wasn't even done in a clever way.... well my hope is dwindling.
There is no Mario canon *aside from the sub franchises (ie, Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi) and direct sequels (ie, Mario Galaxy 1+2, Super Mario Land 1+2). From the start there was never any intention to have connected lore for Mario or Zelda. Nintendo later (because of popular demand) stitched together a Zelda timeline. This is why the Zelda timelines shtick is 'the same events repeating other and over again generations apart' because there was no intention of being connected to begin with (that's also the reason the timeline makes no damn sense). Of course nowadays the Zelda games are vaguely connected, but that was never the intention. I bring all this up because just like the Zelda timeline a Mario timeline makes next to no sense, again, that's because they were never meant to be connected. However unlike Zelda they never went back on that, Mario has remained without an official Nintendo timeline for a reason. It's like the old Mickey Mouse cartoons, one second Mickey is the pilot of a steamboat, the next he's a part of the three musketeers. They are like actors playing whatever roles the devs see fit. The games will borrow and reference others simply because they can, nostalgia, and gameplay reasons. Don't believe me? Listen to the man himself: "If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games." "a troupe of actors." ~ Shigeru Flippin' Miyamoto There is no timeline, there is no canon, each game* is separate. I feel like one connected timeline it's pretty obviously not the case. Of course, this is just my opinion based on the few facts we have out there, feel free to disagree ;)
Zelda absolutely had games connected from the start. -Zelda 2 was a sequel to Zelda 1. -A Link to the Past happened took place before either of them. -Link's Awakening and the Oracle games take place after A Link to the Past, with the same Link. -Ocarina of Time took place before a Link to the Past -Wind Waker took place after Zelda sent Link back in time. Over time, things got more complicated as more and more plot holes started to appear. To the point where an official timeline didn't make any sense. The Minish Cap and Four Swords series caused problems, and the creators of Hyrule Historia made a bad choice creating the Fallen Timeline idea. Nintendo straight up has said that the timeline is up to the fans interpretation. The Hyrule Historia one is what many consider to be definitive, but it's not the "correct" timeline. There is no correct timeline. Zelda was always trying to link its story together. Just because it did a bad job at points and didn't really care at others doesn't mean that Zelda canon doesn't exist. When it comes to Mario, there is no timeline, that is correct. But you know what else has no timeline? Kirby. Despite Kirby's lore focus, the director of the series stated last year that Kirby has no official timeline. You can have a canon without having a timeline. You can have a canon without every single game being connected. The Mario cast is indeed *_like_* a troupe of actors. They can be placed into any situation. Any game can be looked at on its own. But the abundance of references, and severe lack of contradictions, means they want there to be some sort of consistency and continuity. Even in the classic games there were attempts to connect the games together (SMW being a direct sequel to SMB3, for example). The developers can do whatever they want, but despite that, they still work to create new worlds that fit within what has already been established. Mainline games build off of lore from past games, and recent ones have been explicitly connecting themselves with continued events and references. Mario has a canon. Is it a loose canon? Sure, maybe it is. But he has one nonetheless. The nature of the Mario series existing means there is a canon. It doesn't mean it's super detailed and thought out. It's very simple, actually. But there is a canon.
@@DaNintendude Kirby and Metroid don't have a timeline because the games simply take place in order of release. But again, just my opinion. There are good points on both sides! Agree to disagree :)
Not in the same way though. Pauline can't be the mayor of both New York and New Donk. Pauline can't be a New Donker if she's a normal sized human from New York. I guess the other problems have workarounds, but it's definitely not the intention for them to coexist. Concept art shows that Brooklyn was planned to maybe be "Donklyn" earlier on in development. It's most likely that it was just replaced with Brooklyn.
@@DaNintendudethere is probably a separate version of Pauline that is mayor of NDC she is the version in the games That’s how multiverse works the movies and the games are part of a multiverse
@@madnessarcade7447 It's not a multiverse, it's a universe with connected worlds. I don't see why there would be an alternate Pauline, but not an alternate Mario, Luigi, or Peach. Although that would be a cool idea to explore for a sequel. Wario & Waluigi could be the Mushroom counterparts of the bros.
I disagree. I believe you could make the argument that it is separate Marios and non-canon however if this was the case why is the backstory in the movie so adamant? The characters are the same give or take some they are saving for the later film: the creators went to lengths to explain a new version of Mario's backstory which may be different from his origins in the games but Nintendo is known for switching up the origins long before this movie. he was a carpenter at first. You could make the same argument that this Mario is cannon and no other is. It's about perspective and in mine, the creators are using this as canon given how many characters and worlds are actually explained and shown, but I digress. Nonetheless, it's worth noting that you could be very wrong, the game lore could've just been lore, and in the movie, the creators explained what actually is cannon, or at the very least, the beginning story of Mario that they want to propose vs the originals. It explains many side games such as donkey kong and the Penguins and let me ask you this: why go through so much effort validating games such as DK if you plan for the movie not to be considered canon? could be that it isn't canon or a separate Mario, but I feel as though Nintendo just simply finally got to tell his canon story the way they perceived it. But hey, that's just a theory. A Dylan thoery. Aanddddddd cut.
Mario and Luigi are not from Brooklyn, or the real world in the games. In the movie's story and lore, Mario and Luigi are from Brooklyn. There's many inconsistencies between the movie lore and the game lore. The movie cannot be canon. Also your statement on how it can be argued games can be considered non canon is flawed because the games came first, and Nintendo is more focused on the games, and have been.
Well with the topic of the superstars, the concept would work if they were the equivalent of grand stars, which we had 12 in total across the 2 galaxy games, being spread apart the different parts of the universe
Alternate timeline comment: Don't feel free to not discuss your thoughts in the comments. Please do not be civil and have a closed mind. If you disagree with any of our interpretations, or you'd like us to elaborate, I'd not be happy to respond to any comments I can. We are not aware that some of the stuff we said will turn out to be right. Please do spoil anything to correct us. We will NOT address those points in Part 2, After the film has not released, and we've not seen it. EDIT: Yes, I do not know it having a separate canon is implied. However, quite a few people are not treating the Mario movie as if it were an official origin story for the games
Of course it's not canon, should be very obvious to people 😂 Some character personalities are different such as Peach. Besides the creator of Mario DOESN'T like any deep stories implemented into his games. However there were some lucky games to have one such as the paper mario and RPG series, but in the main 3d platform games he doesn't add much dept, Super Mario Galaxy being the ONLY one to have some.
*PART 2:*
ua-cam.com/video/AtIq4G-wQO8/v-deo.html
Also a side note it would’ve been a perfect opportunity to include toadsworth in the Mario movie as peaches advisor
Toadsworth is just a forgotten character at this point.
Yeah i really don't know why Nintendo is trying to make it seem like he was never a thing the past few years, he only ever added to Peach in having a father figure advisor
@@MereMere It's because the numskull at Nintendo who had the dumb policy in place for no new unique Characters or species and bland copypaste trash is trying
to remove him.
@@BananaReidy Him and all the other unique Toads we used to get, Toadbert anyone? Or Dr Toadley and his assistant (or female Toads in general besides Toadette)? Toad children?
@@geschnitztekiste4111 And most of those Toad characters are not just in cute outfits, some noticables come in their own shape, size, and unique hairstyles.
I kind of thought all this was obvious.
Same
Same
Same also
That's actually very great to hear
Yeah you're right, but it's cool to see all the differences between the gameverse and movieverse
Also, for anyone who sees this, know that just because something isn't canon doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed or be a valid introduction or reintroduction to the series. Anyway, it was a real pleasure helping out a bit on this video! And, for the people at home...
Play Snowboard Kids
This comment makes a good point. I bet it’s still gonna be a great movie even if it may not be canon.
True that.
@@gamerharpy205 media that intentionally isn't canon could even be a good thing because the devs can really experiment with an IP in ways the canon media can't just because its supposed to be canon
@@Doktario_Mystario true.
I agree
How sad is it that to this day people still don't know what an "adaptation" is?
Yeah, this guy just wants the movie be exactly like the games
It isn’t classified as an adaptation though, and why buy the rights for the same old cliche and not take in any of the characters at all? Waste of potential
@@candyblackgarden You're right, I just misunderstood what canon meant, now I got to know what it means
@@MedAnimations Learned anything?
@@IDKALaN96 Hopefully yes, but I think the movie having a different canon is to help killing that monotone plot the Mario games had, so it doesn't make it like watching the same plot from the games
The canon of Mario is mostly overlooked by people because of things like, “he’s just a silly jumpy plumby boi he doesn’t have a canon” or “the characters are just actors so it doesnt matter”. I’m glad someone finally took it serious, heck I would even say it makes more sense than Sonic canon.
I'm one of those people who believe in the "Mario characters are just actors" because some games do make it obvious its staged *(like the New Super Mario Bros games having the enemies dance to the music, an audience clapping for the characters when they collect all the red coins; in Super Mario 64 the whole adventure is a movie directed by Lakitu with him following Mario around with a camera, Paper Mario series being a cartoon/book series, Super Mario Bros 3 being a play, Mario Galaxy with Mario being able to survive a black hole is definitely only something that would happen in a movie, etc.) but I also believe many of the games actually happened for real, the first game definitely happened in real life. And the game definitely do have a canon. I personally hate it when people act as if Mario games can't have a canon just because of all the fantastical stuff. It certainly does. Sonic canon is kind of confusing cause there's one where he lives on Earth but yet there's another where they are aliens on Mobius. There's also Classic Sonic who is for some reason another Sonic from another dimension despite originally being considered Modern's younger self in Generations. Heck, I love Kingdom Hearts to death but there might as well be no canon with how confusing the darn story and timeline is.
@briannawilson8845 Super Mario Bros 3 is a play, but it was also an event that actually happened. The play is just the framing device.
Super Mare 64 is not a movie. When Lakitu first appears, he directly says that he's broadcasting the adventure, live. If anything, it's a live news stream, or a documentary.
Mario doesn't actually fall into a black hole in Galaxy. And if he did, it would be cartoon logic. Mario is able to breathe in space, after all.
Paper Mario is a bit trickier. Originally, they were normal adventures shown through the lense of a pop-up book. But the modern games showed that they actually happen in a parallel, paper world.
Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam makes it pretty clear that the world's are parallel, and that all the characters are nearly identical to their real-world counterparts. The modern Paper games also reference real-world adventures several times. This indicates that the Paper Mario games happened in both the real, and paper worlds. And we're just seeing the paper world version of the events.
@@DaNintendude Thank you for explaining this! I guess I was wrong about most of the games being stage plays/movies.
Sonic lore is more complex than Mario lore so I think it would make more sense logically. Even if it does have lore its not that super deep beyond a few things and characters.
@@DaNintendude Best explanation, thanks man for clarifying things. Also great video, loved it!
I'm pretty sure the new game designers/producers for each upcoming title can come up with their own interpretation of the Mario lore and they aren't required to follow the previous game's events/story.
If I remember correctly, the Yoshi's Island lore was just Shigefumi Hino's own version of Mario's origin just so the game mechanics he came up with can make sense and it's even presented as a bed time story.
The same happened with the fan-servicey Odyssey, which is likely why Peach's castle differs from that in Galaxy and in 64.
Basically Mario's lore is pretty much a modelling clay that creators can reshape to fit their own ideas for it the game they want to make.
Mario multiverse for short.
Also, I wonder why they were expecting the movie to be canon when it's already a given that a movie form of something usually is it's own thing.
Mario is intentionally kept simplistic to allow for him to be placed in any situation.
Despite this, there are extremely few contradictions.
The Mario games indeed happen in their own individual bubbles, so they can be enjoyed by anyone without needing to play the other games.
The lore and stories that developers have come up with have never really contradicted other games. No official game has ever referenced Brooklyn, for example. But at least 5 or 6 have referenced Yoshi's Island. There is a canon, and that canon is just "every official Mario game that came before."
There's no direct timeline, but all the games still happened, and you could theoretically make your own timeline.
Many mainline games even have explicit continuity, such as SMW, which is a direct sequel to SMB3. And SMG1, SMG2, Captain Toad, 3D World, and NSMBUDX, which are all intentionally connected in certain ways.
Peach's Castle looking different in one game isn't really evidence that there is no canon.
I think many would agree, that in a bubble, the Mario & Luigi series has a clear continuity between its titles. But the Mushroom Kingdom, and Peach's Castle? They look different in Superstar Saga, and in Partners in Time, and in Bowser's Inside Story, and in Paper Jam. Despite clear continuity, the appearance of the world is different.
This is because they will only show you want is necessary to the gameplay and story of that game. They're not gonna show Thwomp Mountain in Bowser's Inside Story, or Rock Candy Mines in Odyssey. Because they're irrelevant. But that doesn't mean they ceased existing.
Sorry for rambling so much, but I do not believe your argument is really proof that the games have no canon.
I get your points, and you can continue to believe what you want to. But to me, it's very clear that Mario has a canon. Even if it's not focused on much.
yes utterly disgustin how yoshi island was disrespected and yoshi himself sidelined to a mere few seconds of cameo n end cridit!!
o shiggy in ur lust for the $$$ u lost sight of ur own games canon...
but that said i enjoyed the movie. and the homage to super super is long over due. even tho its non canon. it was a fun show.
hyped for mama luigi n yoshi in movie number 2. 😁
In my opinion this is the true answer to Mario canon. Miyamoto even confirmed it when he called them "a troupe of actors"
He compares them to cartoon characters.
"If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games."
@@hajilee4539To be fair, he refers more to the sense of Characters fitting into any game genre(RPGs, sports, Platform etc.) Rather than actual actors.
If Mario really follows the cartoon rule, the characters wouldn't be consistent as they are
21:40 That is a retcon. Originally, "Small Mario" was Mario's normal form, while getting a Super Mushroom turned him into Super Mario. The modern games have retconned Super Mario to be his default state, as opposed to a powered-up state it was originally intended to be.
"Mario has no canon" is one of the most irritating things to hear as a lifelong fan
So true!
Well, that's the truth. There is no Mario canon
@Mosbury yeah Sonic doesn't have Canon Kirby doesn't have Canon
what "canon" is there exactly?
@@AscendedEmperor Sonic officially have a canon actually, full of inconsistencies but Sega wants one.
Mario doesn't have an official canon AND doesn't have a consistent universe = there is no Mario canon
I am *SO GLAD* you acknowledged the official Mario Maker level, "Did Somebody Call a Plumber?"
I love that stage, because it canonized in the games the old "Mario and Luigi took a warp pipe from the big city to the Mushroom Kingdom" story! Sure, it's New Donk and not Brooklyn like it was in the old cartoons, but I still think the Brothers being from a big New York-esque city and stumbling into heroism makes them more relatable, as these blue collar everymen.
That Mario Maker level is seriously one of my favorite pieces of Mario lore because - prior to its existence - I had basically been resigned to the idea that Yoshi's Island completely supplanted the old warp zone backstory. But nah, they can both coexist!
Gotta agree, there was also technically Donkey Kong ‘94 but it wasn’t completely certainly that it lead to Super Mario Bros, it more so seemed like the game that just set Mario to live in the Mushroom Kingdom again. In fact in an interview about the ending from a couple of the devs, one being Miyamoto, they imply this lead to him splitting off from Pauline so I guess that’s that, haha.
@@superresch64 Could you find that interview for me? That sounds interesting if true!
I really like the idea of Mario and Pauline being these amicable exes who still like and respect each other, even if their relationship didn't work out. So hearing that Miyamoto intended for that to be their breakup is interesting!
I don’t remember the actual source but I can quote the interview with the best translation I have saved since it was in Japanese!
“Question: Is Pauline Mario’s girlfriend?
Kameyama: She is his old girlfriend (laughs).
Miyamoto: There is a Mushroom Kingdom around Donkey Kong’s headquarters at the end of the game. I guess that’s where he meets Peach and changes his mind (laughs).
Kameyama: So this is before Super Mario Bros. And after that, Mario became famous and Pauline must have been dumped (laughs.)”
Although this does suggest SMB1 came after personally I believe DK94 is from after Mario already saved Peach and he started to slowly develop feelings for her after he returns from the city and finally moved into the kingdom proper.
@@superresch64 I see.
Some of that is outdated of course, since in the current story, Mario and Peach met when they were both babies.
But I like to think that the other parts are still true.
Imagine if in the movie Mario and Luigi found out they grew up in the Mushroom Kingdom, but something happened where they had to live in Brooklyn. There's no way, but imagine
As someone who wished the movie would stick closer to the games than it seems to be and was noting differences because of that, I definitely found this video informative. You mentioned quite a bit of the changed details I hadn't noticed before (and I never knew there was a difference between a service and construction plumber; you learn something new every day).
I do like that you don't really put down the movie for those differences either, you just inform about them. I feel more able to watch the movie and appreciate it as its own thing after the video, believe it or not.
#BramballNation
I never thought it was cannon.
I appreciate the fact that it isn't because Nintendo, has the Chance to try something new.
Good work on breaking down pretty much everything different that we know about so far about the film versus the games. Bramball Nation!
As always, Americans are jealous of something that should have been a Japan-United States collaboration and not Japan and any other country that is not theirs. As if to say that they know Japan perfectly well than the Japanese themselves. The US film industry has already shown that they do not respect Japanese anime (Dragon Ball Evolution, Double Dragon, Street Fighter, Death Note, etc, etc etc) stories and Shigeru Miyamoto does not want history to repeat itself with his beloved creation
I feel like this will have its own canon for Nintendo’s cinematic universe. With them officially making Nintendo Pictures a film company, it seems like they wanna make the films separate from the stories they wanna tell in the games.
i could see that because at this point there are many things devs would need to keep in mind
But it would be cool to see thing from the Movie in the games!
@@Benja04 well given the Mario devs don't care for story its possible the movieverse can be part os the gameverse
or just a game based on the movieverse that is theorised to happen
@@Doktario_Mystario though the creator of Mario did focus more on the gameplay he still cared about making the characters clear and for them to have a story he made rosalinas storybook and there’s official comics and gives character backgrounds in the guidebooks it’s not like the movie makers couldn’t have taken in the characters a little bit and why make up your own story? Just make your own characters.. Seems like a waste of potential and they just bought rights to a fandom with an audience and not going to take in the real deal sad 😢
@@happymila1 i have seen the Mario Movie and i have to say, i can see it being cannon to the "gameverse"
1) New Donk City: the movie gives the possibilety that Brooklyn is like a smaller part of New Donk City. Thinking more of this it makes more sense that Mario would save Pauline from DK if Pauline is already a mayor. This is also more likely because Pauline is a important figure in the Mini Mario series
2) DK & Cranky Kong: these characters are clearly rewritten but given that the Kongs and the mushroom kingdom don't collab (in games where the story is serious) it can make sense i guess
3) as far the comics, i can't say anything about it because i haven't read them
#BramballNation
Imo they should have used Grand Stars instead of Superstars for Bowser to collect, since there are so few of them.
Always cool to see Sean break down the Mario knowledge. Of course the movie is different but its really fun seeing you guys do comparisons to game lore. Looking forward to the follow up when movie is out
I am not much of a new fan, for in mid 2000s I used to play the original arcade and Super Mario 3 on GameBoy Advance. Until mid 2010s I never even knew what Super Mario 1 and 2 would look like, until I found them either as Flash games adaptations and online SNES emulators.
Then I never played anything Nintendo-related. I knew the universe and the fandom were doing well, since big titles and new consoles still were in my media field. However, we would not purchase any of them and, since I could not play them, I was losing interest quite fast.
Recently, however, I purchased Nintendo Switch and it sucked me in. I immediately fell in love with snes emulator, The New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe and Super Mario 3D World. Therefore, my interest with the fandom was rekindled like it never was before.
I enjoyed the movie and I think that, even though it is very safe and cautious, cliche-addicted (a classic Illumination approach in my opinion), it is quite faithful and fun to watch. Thank you very much for pointing out differences in canon and giving me quite some curious details about Super Mario lore I never knew before! Waiting for PART 2 you have mentioned! ^^
This is the most "well, actually" video about the movie I've ever seen. 🤓
10/10
Agreed. Bowser may be evil but Paper Mario has shown us by now that Bowser cares greatly for his army and wouldn't forget them like that. This is the only issue I have tho.
Imo, they balanced Bowser's goofy and evil sides perfectly.
@@jaco8822 agreed, it's just the "whatever those things are!" joke was lame and out of character. they could have picked any obscure enemy in Bowser's army to be the butt of that joke, but they picked one who is consistently tied to one as well-known as Lakitu.
@@BronzeAgePepper fair, but i saw many people who didn't know what spinies were called.
I’m kinda looking at it kinda like the MCU. Like the MCU is it’s own canon apart from the comics.
The fact that the Kongs age faster than the others reminds me of Solid Snake’s Accelerated Aging.
To be honest the super Mario Bros movie detached from super Mario Canon when princess Peach took out her axe to fight bowser
💀
Well, peach being an independent warrior isn’t anything new in the Mario franchise. A big example of this would be the “Super Mario Adventures” comic series.
Yeah but she dainty and bubbly while she does it
Seriously one of the most well-crafted videos I have seem this year. I absolutely love the structure and vibe!
Also the amount of deep knowledge brought into this is absolutely impressive. Even I as a rather huge Mario fan wasn't aware of some things mentioned in this video.
Good job, I really enjoyed this! Keep it up :)
Very well made and good to have a video up that works against the misinformation.
Probs guys, very well done 👍
Who is that handsome sounding fellow?
Definitely isn't a Californian, that's for sure.
This video is absolutely amazing! It can be seen that you did put a lot of effort on this. Anyway, I'm glad I helped you a little on this video.
The lore parts of this video are insane i didn't realize the Mario lore actually was somewhat able to be followed
Very glad to hear that! I kinda felt like maybe putting that lore stuff in would detract from the video, but it was a lot of fun to share, and it's cool to know that it's actually resonating with people!
Yeah, its kinda hard to make a Mario timeline without looking insane. With stuff like DK playing tennis with the child version of his dad and what not.
While my dream movie would be super strictly canon, I do also kind of appreciate a take like this. It kind of reminds me of Paper Mario 64, which had a lot of worldbuilding and took a lot from then-recent games, (though admittedly most of the Yoshi's Island stuff was relegated to its own island) and GameCube era interpretations of the Mushroom Kingdom. Honestly, the main draw of the movie for me are the environments and soundtrack, which seem super promising, and I wouldn't mind if Nintendo took a few cues, such as the Toad Town layout or Ice Palace. Shame they screwed up the geography though, Mario Odyssey just came out and it contradicts it pretty heavily. (Though it also adheres to some of the rules that game introduced oddly, like the Kingdom naming conventions. Nintendo's priorities are a bit weird lol)
They would never make a canon movie.
And personal theory: Given the way Donkey Kong seems to be making a comeback, I wouldn't be shocked to see it called the Jungle Kingdom in official media as well as some of the other details that match up with the theme park. There might be more brand synergy going on with DK than meets the eye and Illumination might be following Nintendo's instructions on that end
@@ucantbeme You think the movie looks live garbage don’t you? 😔
@@creedecriswell634 No I'm actually super hyped! Not being my ideal thing isn't a problem. (Nothing should be lol) I'm not expecting to laugh much, but Mario's characterization seems very on point and I think that's eons more important than the orientation of landmasses, even if I personally dig that stuff
@@ucantbeme Yeah the humor seems to be like a cross between marvel and illumination.
You know, maybe in the Donkey Kong Movie, they reveal that he is indeed the Grandson or adopted son or Cranky Kong because his real father died when fought King K. Rool or other dimensional Villain
Hey that could be kind of cool, King K Rool being a villain in a DK movie and having any actual mention of DK Jr would be awesome!
Would love a DK Jr grand reveal
Or DK jr. later grew into modern DK.
One thing I’ll note is that the plots of both Mario movies are very similar,also at least in a lot of the older games Small or as he was originally know Little Mario was his canonical form before learning of the super mushrooms
Feel free to discuss your thoughts in the comments.
Please be civil and have an open mind.
If you disagree with any of our interpretations, or you'd like us to elaborate, I'd be happy to respond to any comments I can.
We are aware that some of the stuff we said will turn out to be wrong. Please do not spoil anything to correct us. We will address those points in Part 2. after the film has released, and we've seen it.
EDIT: Yes, I know it having a separate canon is implied. However, quite a few people are treating the Mario movie as if it were an official origin story for the games, rather than an adaptation. This video is less of a "Ha, you're wrong!" type of video, and more of an informative one. I'm obsessed with Mario and would love to share my vast knowledge with everyone.
Our pleasure! I'll share the video to help you get more views
But that is the definition of canon, that's why The Bible has multiple testaments on Jesus, and why Rashomon is one of the most lauded films of all time and NOT a lambasted, inconsistent mess.
Mario universe is explicitly about CANON of multiple realities existing in the active memory of the characters: welcome, new Galaxy.
It is to introduce this basic idea to VERY backwards western speaking world, who have difficulty understanding historical records, instead opting to believe a DELUSION that a historical RECORD is the 1:1 material FACT of what did happen. That is inability to differentiate fiction from reality, basic Plato's cave that you're still missing the meaning of.
I would slow down the scrolling background a bit. It's going so fast it's a bit of a distraction
@deadx1538 Thanks for the critique. I'll try to have stationary backgrounds more often, and slow down the scrolling itself quite a bit.
For the pipes, the ones shown in SM3DW are actually clear pipes, which are a variation of pipes so that ones more give or take.
Really nice video, I hope a lot of people will see it
I really enjoyed this video, ever since the movies first trailer ive been thinking is it canon, so im glad its finally settled.
NON-MAJOR MOVIE SPOILERS
20:26 i'm actually surprised this little detail (sorta) made it into the movie - you can see goombas in the same prison luigi is in! what they did is up to interpretation, but i like to think that it's a parallel to how the gameverse has goombas on the side of both good and evil
Canon or not this looks like a great movie to watch honestly.
It sucks
@@rustyshackelford4224 explain why.
@@lococomrade3488He's just a hater. I think he's just mad because that movie isn't COMPLETELY like the games.
@ZyNye2011 I'll be 100% honest.
I was a hater, too.
Because it IS a cash grab for trashy B-list celebrities.
But I pirated it and watched it.. because you can't blindly hate.
It's decent. I liked it. It's not a terrible movie.
But it still is terrible that they've done this and let Chris Pratt voice Mario.
One can be a fan of the film, and still be critical of its cash-grab bullshit.
@lococomrade3488 Seriously, it's so difficult to care or credit this movie when it's blatantly cynical and irreverent towards towards to the original source material once you fully analyze it and pay attention to the interviews. It's already a badly made movie because it suffers from the typical writing sins that Illumination movies love committing, but it's even worse than the 1993 adaptation in terms of being an adaptation of the Mario franchise.
#BramballNation
I didn't know that was the enemy's name till now. That name alone immediately made Bramball one my favorite Mario enemies.
I absolutely enjoyed this video and it did have a lot of good points! This video can also be easily said about the Sonic universe as well
Yeah. That's why the plot of that movie is different than the games. Idk why some people don't really see that
Ultimate proof that it's not canon: Nintendo hasn't taken down the "leaked" clips videos.
This is all impressive the amount of research that went into this. And this might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think it matters that much. Let me explain. Only the die hard fans like myself are going to notice the inconsistencies between the movie and game lore. Sticking too close to the game lore makes it hard for film makers to have their own creative freedom. Remember, most Mario games don't have a ton of story (with a few exceptions of course). This makes it easy for the developers pointing you towards a straightforward goal and letting the player play the game in a matter of minutes with very little cinematics to explain the situation. That doesn't translate to film very easily, so changes are made to simplify lore to better suit the narrative the film company is going for.
Actually, I'm very impressed with how close to the games this movie seems to be. Its clearly one of the most accurate adaptations we've seen as most Video Game movies don't even try to relate to the source material at all. Sure these nitpicks do establish the many changes from the games to this movie adaptation, but compared to almost every other Video Game movie in existence this one seems to be surprisingly faithful to the games these characters are based on.
Personally, I would've liked them to make a brand new story in the already established Mario universe. But I appreciate that they were able to create their own universe so they could do whatever they want. It definitely gave them much more freedom.
I agree. Also the Mario series has little to no worldbuilding, trying to respect all the insignificant details while also making a new story out of them wouldn't be worth the effort. It's not like with Pokemon where the world itself is the whole appeal.
Well, from various aspects, it can be seen that the film will tell its own story far from the canon of the games, such as the Mario manga (Mario Kun) and the animated series that tell their own story of the character not related to the games.
This is a really good video
This video was honestly like one of the most entertaining videos I’ve ever watched
Well, yeah. It decanonized as soon as it showed the Mario bros. were from Brooklyn. And on top of that, there are SEVERAL changes in the film vs the games.
It’s just an adaptation. Like the super show.
Yeah, glad other people see it that way too, some people would just assume Brooklyn hasn’t been retconned despite New York hardly ever being mentioned in association with Mario since the 90’s especially after Yoshi’s Island and Donkey Kong ‘94, haha.
@@superresch64 Nice mention of DK 94.
Not enough people bring it up.
Yeah, Brooklyn and the “real world” has been retconned for a almost 30 years- and even then, it was only ever “canon” in the west. It was retconned as soon as Yoshi’s island released.
And then with Odyssey, while not explicitly stated, it’s insinuated new donk is the “big city” from various past Mario games- Wrecking crew, DK94, etc.
I am willing to admit that the Brooklyn backstory makes for a better, or maybe, more relatable story for the big screen.
@@MrMindCloud Glad you agree, it’s pretty much good as confirmed they are the same city, possibly different parts of it but that doesn’t really matter. Brooklyn isn’t horrible for another adaptation but it’s not ideal for actual canon at this point.
@@superresch64 Absolutely.
Not canon, but fun for a film :)
Isn’t everything mario even canon? There is no offical timeline, so nothing in the games or movie is canon!
You know what else doesn't have an official timeline? The Kirby series.
The director of the Kirby series confirmed last year that there is no timeline for the games. Yet I think everyone would agree that Kirby has a canon.
I doubt Sonic has an official timeline either. Yet most people would agree that Sonic has a canon.
Not having a timeline doesn't mean anything.
Lots of Mario games contradict each other, and hardly any are related to each other, so this movie is about as "canon" as your typical Mario game.
No canon Mario games contradict each other. That’s the point. You should watch the video.
@@seandwalsh3 "No canon Mario games contradict each other". And how do you decide if a game is canon or not? Do you just pick and choose based on If it makes sense?
@@hajilee4539 No. Any Nintendo-Published, non-crossover Mario game is canon. Those are the only games that connect to one-another.
@@seandwalsh3 Well now things are getting really weird. Just to confirm you think that very Mario and Luigi RPG is canon, except for the last one Paper Jam? Just cause? Also Nintendo published games like Mario pinball. Please don't tell me you think that is canon too.
@@hajilee4539 the Mario & Luigi games are clearly and explicitly canon, including Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. I have no idea why you’d exclude that. Yes, Mario Pinball Land (I presume that’s what you’re talking about) is absolutely canon. It has no reason not to be.
After seeing tmnt going canonically wrong by Michael Bay I in that sense seen everything already
Hot take: The instruction manual for the original Super Mario Bros. isn't canon. If toads really were transformed into objects, it would be mentioned in later games. Instead, the objects that the toads were apparently turned into continued to exist after Super Mario Bros, without any mention of toads being transformed again.
Because they just regularly exist in the world anyways, Bowser just created new objects that form the layouts of the worlds in SMB1 and SMB2J.
The manual is still canon, they reference that original story as canon material frequently. They were just turned into preexisting objects. If you got turned into a frog that doesn’t mean Frogs don’t exist naturally.
But then we missed that the DK in the original arcade was not the same DK in the DKC and cuttent Mario universe
Really enjoyed the video by the way, even as someone who could already tell it wasn't canon, it was a great fun watch regardless and was super interesting and funny!
Thank you for making a movie over 20 minutes long to explain something all of us already assumed
To be fair a lot of people also assumed otherwise because either they don’t really care that much or they say that Mario has minimal, inconsistent, or no canon regardless.
Mario's dad is in the movie. Most likely that's who battled Cranky Kong when he was the original Donkey Kong. DK Junior is probably just out for revenge. Also, there are some licensed plumbers who work as both construction and service plumbers, doing calls when there aren't any construction jobs.
Jumpman is explicitly Mario. Miyamoto said it himself in an interview.
@@tomandthecats2.018 I meant in the movieverse. This whole video is explicitly about how there are two continuities.
@@EthanMiguelScott We don’t know for sure what his role even is yet or if that’s true really. I kind of doubt that will be the case though but who really knows I wouldn’t be surprised knowing how many liberties this film has already taken.
@EthanMiguelScott I highly doubt that Mario’s father will be Jumpman. Hopefully, the writers are smart enough to know they are the same character.
DK the second abandoned the family for whatever reason when DK was a kid/baby and cranky took DK in and raised him as his own without ever acknowledging DK the second
Hence DK calling cranky his dad
It’s not that difficult guys
Masterpiece of a video. I had hoped to break the 776th like considering how dear Ancient Fire Emblem (1990-2010) is to me, but it would be less than an hour before this video breaks one thousand.
For me, the main appeal of Mario besides the bombastic gameplay is how rich its world is. To a lot of people, Mario may seem silly on the surface, but it actually has so much more nuance if you look hard enough. Look at Bowser's full personality, for example.
How is Bowser a nuanced character, though? Isn't he Achronistic?
I Hope Those Characters Will Stay Same Some of Personal We Know and Love
Nothing wrong with their being different universes about the same franchise
True. Sometimes it feels like if something's not canon to the main continuity, its story doesn't matter, but it can definitely be pretty freeing to realize that it can just exist as its own thing.
Nice video as usual! 😎
Despite there being NO **established** canon there really isn't really any contradiction due to the fact Shigeru says every version of Mario we've seen in is just a role for him to play and the rest of the cast are literally the same way(As Creator of the franchise this should definitely take precedence over any other argument made by literally anyone else THAT isn't an author/dev etc.) There are no different continuities either, all iterations of the cast are the same, there are even references in the RPG games where characters refer to Mario not being in his 3D form or paper etc. At this point aside from the more mainstream games and some comic/manga adaptations, most of those extra extra games and animations are all just a staged act and some are actually legitimate adventures.
Miyamoto's quote was that the characters are "like a family, or a troupe of actors."
Bur they aren't literally a cast of actors. That merely refers to the fact that the characters can be placed into any scenario and still work well.
There is no "established" canon, bur there is a canon nonetheless. And there is very clear continuity across several games. Miyamoto did indeed say there is only *one* Mario in the games, but that one is _not_ an actor.
I think I have heard that Modern DK is around 6 Human Years old which equals similar to Cats and Dogs to 20 Kong years or something
Great video! I’m so excited for the Mario Movie to come out soon, even if I am frustrated from the confusion it may cause for some audiences, I’m willing to appreciate it as it’s own thing. Besides, seeing an animated Mario Movie on the big screen has been a childhood dream come true.
What you forget to account for is that in the movie his “normal size” IS small mario hence all the short jokes
I love seeing and talking Mario’s origins good work fellas!
I don't give a shit,I consider the animated movie canon,and it'a a trillion times more canon than the shitty embaressing live action we got when I was a kid
0:33 sonic movie 2 would’ve been a better comparison as that movie was more accurate to the source material and wasn’t playing it safe like the first movie where as the Mario movie also isn’t playing it as safe like sonic 2 so I feel like that would be a better comparison
Yeah, that's fair. I was intending on mentioning both the Sonic films, but in the end, I just glossed over the first one.
It was just to be an example of a recent game movie that people generally accepted as having its own separate continuity.
If there's 3 Donkey Kongs (Cranky, Junior, and DK) wouldn't it make sense for the movie DK to be Junior and the while DK went to go get his own island being DK island somewhere else while his Junior is the new Kong king while cranky is with DK on his island since he's older in the games?
Mario cannon is a box of legos
It exist but you can take apart and rebuild it any way you want
And it will still make sense
On that note I feel like the movieverse may absorb the gameverse and possibly replace it
I hope not personally, the games already are perfectly fine universe.
@@superresch64 well due to how myimoto is treating the movie at the least Mario and Luigi's origin will change to broklin rather than the mushroom kingdom
@@thedragonsden2004 Not set in stone that anything will actually happen yet.
Underrated comment
It's apparent that Nintendo/Illumination are going the MCU route taking elements from past stories to create their own continuity and cinematic universe.
I love it regardless of it not being canon, first I cared when the sonic movie was a thing but after watching both, I appreciate it as it's own canon. This movie is canon just to itself, a cinematic universe just how the MCU doesn't exactly follow the comics, both which I love. I'm glad super duper glad that this movie unlike Sonic so far (which I did like not expecting to giving Sonic a different personality more like a child's and giving him a family) is sticking way more closer to the source material with a heck load of references to so many games than it could have been.
Based on young Dks personality, it wouldn't surprise me if it's revealed in the sequel that the dad died, the son craved paternal affection, and grandpa whose slowly getting dementia mistakes the two. DK in the films kind of roled with anything, so it wouldn't be weird for him to play into the fantasy. If his grandpa raised him instead of his bio dad then he may actually view his grandpa as his father figure.
Trust the fungus.
Here's a thought. Maybe that imprisoned goomba was a descenter? Wich would naturally indicate their still mushroom kingdom citizens, just like in games verse! Feel free for discussions guys! I'm.
Okay, I’ll believe you guys.
*NOTE: I'm making this comment without researching anything on the Internet, as I don't think it's worth it to do that for a UA-cam comment. Besides that, I DO agree with you that it's probably another canon, I'm just going to talk about parts that I think you didn't get right or that I don't directly think you didn't get right but no proof confirms you got them right.*
2:41 Is there actual proof for this tho? Maybe they were born in Brooklyn and got delivered to the mushrooms. Or, as you say, it's likely that they were born in the Mushroom kingdom and moved to New Donk City, for the they're not humans and the Brooklyn parts, well, first of, that interview, or at least the part you showed, doesn't say anything that claims they aren't human, and in fact, in Yoshi's island, their parents seem to be humans, so it would make sense for them to be humans too. Now for the Brooklyn part, I don't have much explanation on this one, maybe they just moved from Brooklyn to New Donk City?? We don't know the movie's history after all, maybe we see them in New Donk City at some point.
6:08 Well, I'll argue that's not the case. Do we 100% know that SMB1 happened JUST AFTER Mario and Luigi got to the mushroom kingdom? Maybe it happened after some time which could mean that Mario and Luigi could have already had another adventure there. And for the overalls, well, we're assuming that both, the old overalls and the Mario Maker level are canon, then, why didn't Mario wear his old overalls in that level? I mean, there IS a costume that has Mario's old overalls.
11:57 It depends on the game, however, right now I can't remember any game where this is the case but Paper Mario, which is canonically a book inside the gameverse (God damn there are too many canons, the gameverse could even be a videogame, or even another book, inside the movieverse and that would explain everything!), and besides that, as you said in Paper Mario she usually uses her wits, but I believe there was one game where she did indeed just fight- Oh true, *Super Princess Peach.*
13:54 That's just- Just no. We could apply that same logic to justify almost every inconsistency between the movie and the games, for example, Mario and Luigi origins, we could just say "But that was one movie" to justify any inconsistency between the movieverse's origins and the gameverse's origins and thus say the movies IS canon but has an inconsistency that should be ignored as it's only one movie.
Also please, don't go saying in the comments that the Mario canon doesn't have any inconsistency after saying this in the video, unless you consider the Kongs a different canon, which may I ask, how, and may I also ask, if that's the case why are you talking about it in this video.
About the Mario Kart part (No timestamps as I'm pretty much talking about everything in that part)
Who knows, maybe when the first Mario Karts take place all of these cars were already invented, but they didn't use them for races for some reason, maybe they were pretty new and there were almost none of them so they reserved them for important situations? No proof says this is correct, but no proof says it isn't correct, so who knows, maybe this, or another logical reason, could have been the case.
19:15 Maybe in the Mario lore New York and New York are the same thing, just they have different names for some reason.
19:34 Any proof? Maybe we end up seeing them in the movie chasing Bowser's minions and end up being sucked by the pipe.
2:03 This makes me remember, in games like NSMBW and NSMBU we don't even see Toad Town anywhere near the castle, so, again, don't go saying in the comments that there aren't any inconsistencies in the gameverse.
20:20 Maybe the Toads trimmed them this way because they thought they looked nice.
20:23 Maybe they WERE in the mushroom kingdom prior to the events of SM3DW but we just didn't see them in any game.
20:26 Any proof this isn't the case in the movieverse?
20:49 As I said before with the Toad Town thingy, inconsistencies like these also happen pretty frequently in the gameverse.
21:18 Maybe they used to be inverted but something happened or maybe for some reason they just liked being floating at some times and not at others.
21:36 It could be that Mario was in his small state but, because of another inconsistency between the gameverse and the movieverse, he looked normal. Also if they randomly heal and they randomly make you go from small to normal, who says that they don't randomly make people twice as big as they were? We just may never see them do this before, doesn't mean they can't do this in the gameverse
21:48 And finally, maybe there ARE Bramballs outside of the jungle in the gameverse but we just never saw them, as you said, or maybe this one is unique and there aren't more of them outside of the jungle, idk maybe someone brought it here, again, there's simply no proof. #BramballNation
Phew, I've finally ended this, it's currently nighttime, it wasn't when I started making this comment LMAO
Hey, thanks for going through the effort to write a response! I'll try to answer and give my reasoning on everything I can.
1) The final line of Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's New Island says "Heroes are born," and the stories both start with explaining how the stork is delivering them to be born. Therefore, they were born in the Mushroom Kingdom
2) The interview doesn't directly say Mario is human, but it's implied by what the spokesman said. The only interpretations could be either "Yes, he is human, just from the Mushroom Kingdom," or "No, he's not human. He's from the Mushroom Kingdom."
I think the first option makes more sense.
3) Super Mario Bros didn't happen _immediately_ after Mario Bros, but it happened soon after, at least. We know that Super Mario Bros is Mario's "first adventure."
4) The reason the Mario Maker level used the modern Mario costume, is because Luigi is also represented in the level, and he doesn't have a classic costume in the game.
Also, the bros canonically wore blue overalls during the events of Mario Bros. I like to headcanon that the blue overalls were their work outfits, and after they got to the Mushroom Kingdom, they changed into their casual outfits (the classic outfits).
5)
6) In Super Princess Peach, Peach has the help of Perry the parasol, which allows her to fight more directly. In Super Mario Bros 2, Mario RPG, and 3D World, she attacked more directly, but she was also traveling in a group with Mario.
7) The Cranky Kong stuff is an interesting case. But calling DK his son _once_ over 20 years ago, but never before that point, and never again since, makes it an exception. This cannot be applied to the movie, because it's current.
It's possible that some members at Rare were trying to retcon Cranky into DK's dad at that time. So at that point it would've been a retcon, rather than a contradiction. But for the past 20 years, Cranky has always been referred to as DK's dad. Meaning if it was intended to be a retcon, Nintendo immediately ignored it, and acted like it never happened.
DK canon is indeed linked to Mario canon, btw.
8) What you said is possible, but I personally find it unlikely. Nothing much more to say there. I cannot prove or disprove anything.
9) New York cannot be New Donk, as New York is in a version of real-world New York. New Donk is on Mario's planet, and has its own differences and landmarks, such as flying taxis, and a city center on top of a towering power plant. Brooklyn seems pretty clearly meant to be the real deal in the film, and not an altered Mario world version.
10) In a TV spot from a few weeks ago, we see Mario getting sucked into the pipe. In none of the Brooklyn sewer footage do we see any minions. The bros seem to be alone. It's possible some minions will appear in the actual film, but I doubt it.
11) Bowser frequently attacks Peach's Castle and Toad Town in the games. This is likely why they look so different every few games. They're rebuilt and remodeled constantly.
Regarding location and geography changes, this isn't a big deal. Notice how the Mushroom Kingdom map is wildly different between Partners in Time, Bowser's inside Story, and Paper Jam. The Mario & Luigi has a clear timeline and continuity, yet the locations change quite a bit.
This is because they only show what is relevant for the game. Toad Town isn't necessary for most games, which is why it's not shown in the NSMB games.
12) The Super Bell Trees thing doesn't matter, ultimately. It's just an aesthetic choice that stands out for being based on a non-Mushroom Kingdom tree.
13) It is indeed possible that Clear pipes were in the Mushroom Kingdom prior to 3D World, albeit rarely. Mario & Luigi seem surprised to find one in the intro, but perhaps it was just because it was in the middle of the path, and shouldn't have been there (the Sprixie Princess probably built it mere moments ago, to escape Bowser).
14) There is no evidence to show that the Goombas defected in the film. This is just a hunch. They seem pretty beast-like and wild, which could be evidence for either/or.
15) I think it'd be more likely that these are separate inverted pyramids, but the location is clearly based on Tostarena, with red sand and the same pillar and cactus designs. It was likely just an oversight that the main pyramid is floating, and has 4 sides instead of 6.
16) Movie Mario cannot be in his small form. The tall form is supposed to be the default, so it would be weird if he and Luigi start out in their small forms. Especially since they're sized like the rest of the normal humans in Brooklyn.
17) It is in fact possible that Super Mushrooms might be able to make people grow taller than normal. However, the nature of Super Mushrooms leads me to believe this is not the case. Mushrooms in the RPG games _heal_ Mario. This implies that Super Mushrooms merely have healing properties. So Mario getting big from eating a Mushroom implies that his small form is a "damaged" state that needs healing.
18) I may have lied about Bramballs 😬
They appear in a grassy plateau course - Shelltop Sanctuary - in Mario Golf: Super Rush.
--
Keep in mind that, even if some of these _are_ inconsistencies, it doesn't show that Mario has an loose, or nonexistant canon. The Kirby series also shares a lot of the same "issues," such as changing geography/locations, oversights, and exceptions. Yet Kirby is still seen as having a canon.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond! Even if we disagree on stuff, it's cool to see people at least interested in my viewpoint, and what I have to say.
@@DaNintendude
1) Oh yeah that makes sense
2) Oh wait, I thought what you meant in the video by that was saying Mario wasn't human, now that I think about it, you said it because that confirms Mario was born in the Mushrooms Kingdom, right?
3) Interesting, I'm curious to know where this information comes from.
4) Fair enough.
6) Also fair enough, but I personally believe that if she's with Perry during the whole game and that's why she fights more directly the same thing could be happening in the movie, like, from what we've seen she's always with Toad and Mario, never alone.
7) Yeah that makes sense, but what I mean is, if that happened and well, that game's canon too, even if something about it isn't canon, couldn't the same thing happen with the movie? I mean with how many differences there are it's unlikely, but still possible, after all the movie didn't come out yet, so maybe it's closer to the games than it looks like, unlikely, but possible.
9) I'm getting a bit lost here, pretty sure New York in the movie was announced in a trailer I didn't see, so I can't really say much here.
11) Yeah, but the thing is they also seem to be in different places, and it is possible that they could find a different place to rebuild it, but after all, why put the effort into doing that? It's not like any of those places are hidden, besides Bowser has got flying ships and a lot of minions, pretty sure he could find Peach's new castle without any effort, and I doubt Peach and the Toads are unaware of this.
15) True, I didn't think about that while making the comment.
16) Wait but, why can't they be in their small form, maybe all humans are just in their small form, after all, if a small form does exist in the movieverse, it's most likely what would usually be normal Mario in games. And if their normal form is their default form, why do we start as small Mario in a lot of games? Also I just realized that in NSMBW everyone is in their normal form in the cutscene but suddenly become small without any explanation.
I do agree Mario has a canon, and, as I've said, I agree with you that this is most likely a new canon. However, I do believe Mario canon can be a little bit inconsistent at times, usually it's not, but there are some things, such as the castle and Toad Town always changing, that while could have an explanation and are definitively possible I find unlikely, but still definitely possible.
@@DaNintendude But don't you start out the first Super Mario Bros as Small Mario?
Honestly, I don’t see the movie as canon. I mostly see this movie as a different interpretation of the Mario story. Thanks for explaining all in this video before though!
Turns out in the movie there's only one star
Great video!!! Subbed
Mario canon doesn't really exist. It's created intentionally that way. There are consistentcies in some areas and inconsistencies in others. Personally, I think the movie is canon because it takes bits and pieces from everything Mario that has ever existed and I couldn't be happier with what we got! I was over the moon when they went with the Brooklyn origin story for the brothers.
But Mario canon does exist. It's literally obvious if you do enough amount of accurate research.
I don’t consider it canon. It’s creepy how they made it look like Kamek actually liked Bowser in that way when he raised him as a baby.🤮
Thats a stupid reason to consider it noncanon
Obviously for convenience the power star and the superstar was combined into one item
Thought it was kinda obvious from the beginning that it isn't canon.
I've seen the Super Mario Bros. Movie and the movie was really good, and I think a lot of the inconsistencies has to do a lot with the fan service, especially some of it is directed towards nostalgia that many people had with the Mario franchise. It's honestly like Spider-Man: No Way Home to me, having a lot of fan service while still being a very good and enjoyable movie. So that's why the lore inconsistencies don't get to me very badly. And my only complaint, if any at all, was the Mario movie was a little shorter in length than I thought it was going to be.
Also, don't listen to critics' reviews and go see the movie for yourself. Even though critic rating score Rotten Tomatos is 59%, the audience rating score on the other hand is 96%, and the audience score is the one I have to agree with.
Oh my god , you seriously want this movie to be an exact replica of the game ? Also complaining about such minor details than nobody would even think of
No one said it had to be, it’s just a video saying why it’s not connected to the games because some people are saying it is for some reason.
@@superresch64 i mean thats kinda obvious
Glad you agree at least lol
Yeah most of the changes hardly matter, and a few are actually better and less convoluted than canon
But canon in relation to what? I never understood why people use the argument ' it is not canon' when refering to different incarnations of a given media, specially when projects like Marvel let clear the concept of Multiverse. The animated show has its own canon, the 90's movie has its own canon, the games has its own canon and also this movie has its own. Every one of them are valid media canons and that doesn't means there is one that invalidates the others.
You should use the 'it is not canon' thing only to solve arguments that contradict themselves within the same continuity. That will be then another continuity as a result.
The "not canon" thing is just for the video's title. I believe in thr video itself we immediately clarify it's just a separate continuity.
But that doesn't roll off the tongue well for a video title, lol
0:52 *(famous based on Dubious Debaucheries)
21:30 I mean, If you think about it, this is probably how Fire Donkey Kong gonna look from now on.
21:40 I'm pretty sure Mario is already in his "small" form
No, he’s clearly already at his standard height. If he was in his small form his proportions would be different.
@@seandwalsh3 But it could be just another inconsistency with the canon from the games and the canon from the movie tho...
The Kongs making karts made sense because Diddy Kong Racing had more of a story than Mario Kart, and they have a tradition of starting every word with a K instead of a C 🤓
I like to think that while it's not canon, it CAN help fill in the gaps.
it cant fill in the gaps for anything. just as the sonic movies and shows cant, nor can the kirby anime
@@gooey7209 I mean as in; It can give us a hint as too Mario's backstory while not being official. Kind of like the FNAF books explaining things in the games while they aren't canon.
Fun fact: The likes in this video are from australian people who disliked thiw video
mario
the penguins are likely based on the NSMB penguins
Mario isn't voiced by Charles Martine. That's why it's not canon.
That's stupid
I hope it's good and the trailers are being tuned for normies but.... between how not good the voices are (by which I mean how little they fit the characters)... "current year" Toadstool as well as soon as I heard the, "It's on... like Donkey Kong!" line... and it wasn't even done in a clever way.... well my hope is dwindling.
There is no Mario canon *aside from the sub franchises (ie, Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi) and direct sequels (ie, Mario Galaxy 1+2, Super Mario Land 1+2).
From the start there was never any intention to have connected lore for Mario or Zelda. Nintendo later (because of popular demand) stitched together a Zelda timeline. This is why the Zelda timelines shtick is 'the same events repeating other and over again generations apart' because there was no intention of being connected to begin with (that's also the reason the timeline makes no damn sense). Of course nowadays the Zelda games are vaguely connected, but that was never the intention.
I bring all this up because just like the Zelda timeline a Mario timeline makes next to no sense, again, that's because they were never meant to be connected. However unlike Zelda they never went back on that, Mario has remained without an official Nintendo timeline for a reason. It's like the old Mickey Mouse cartoons, one second Mickey is the pilot of a steamboat, the next he's a part of the three musketeers. They are like actors playing whatever roles the devs see fit. The games will borrow and reference others simply because they can, nostalgia, and gameplay reasons.
Don't believe me? Listen to the man himself:
"If you're familiar with things like Popeye and some of the old comic characters, you would oftentimes see this cast of characters that takes on different roles depending on the comic or cartoon. They might be businessman in one or a pirate in another. Depending on the story that was being told, they would change roles. So, to a certain degree, I look at our characters in a similar way and feel that they can take on different roles in different games."
"a troupe of actors."
~ Shigeru Flippin' Miyamoto
There is no timeline, there is no canon, each game* is separate. I feel like one connected timeline it's pretty obviously not the case. Of course, this is just my opinion based on the few facts we have out there, feel free to disagree ;)
I fully agree.
Zelda absolutely had games connected from the start.
-Zelda 2 was a sequel to Zelda 1.
-A Link to the Past happened took place before either of them.
-Link's Awakening and the Oracle games take place after A Link to the Past, with the same Link.
-Ocarina of Time took place before a Link to the Past
-Wind Waker took place after Zelda sent Link back in time.
Over time, things got more complicated as more and more plot holes started to appear. To the point where an official timeline didn't make any sense. The Minish Cap and Four Swords series caused problems, and the creators of Hyrule Historia made a bad choice creating the Fallen Timeline idea.
Nintendo straight up has said that the timeline is up to the fans interpretation. The Hyrule Historia one is what many consider to be definitive, but it's not the "correct" timeline. There is no correct timeline.
Zelda was always trying to link its story together. Just because it did a bad job at points and didn't really care at others doesn't mean that Zelda canon doesn't exist.
When it comes to Mario, there is no timeline, that is correct. But you know what else has no timeline? Kirby. Despite Kirby's lore focus, the director of the series stated last year that Kirby has no official timeline. You can have a canon without having a timeline. You can have a canon without every single game being connected.
The Mario cast is indeed *_like_* a troupe of actors. They can be placed into any situation. Any game can be looked at on its own. But the abundance of references, and severe lack of contradictions, means they want there to be some sort of consistency and continuity.
Even in the classic games there were attempts to connect the games together (SMW being a direct sequel to SMB3, for example).
The developers can do whatever they want, but despite that, they still work to create new worlds that fit within what has already been established. Mainline games build off of lore from past games, and recent ones have been explicitly connecting themselves with continued events and references.
Mario has a canon. Is it a loose canon? Sure, maybe it is. But he has one nonetheless.
The nature of the Mario series existing means there is a canon. It doesn't mean it's super detailed and thought out. It's very simple, actually. But there is a canon.
@@DaNintendude Kirby and Metroid don't have a timeline because the games simply take place in order of release.
But again, just my opinion.
There are good points on both sides! Agree to disagree :)
The Mario movie references odyssey so it’s possible for NYC and NDC to both exist at the sametime
Not in the same way though.
Pauline can't be the mayor of both New York and New Donk. Pauline can't be a New Donker if she's a normal sized human from New York.
I guess the other problems have workarounds, but it's definitely not the intention for them to coexist. Concept art shows that Brooklyn was planned to maybe be "Donklyn" earlier on in development. It's most likely that it was just replaced with Brooklyn.
@@DaNintendudethere is probably a separate version of Pauline that is mayor of NDC she is the version in the games
That’s how multiverse works the movies and the games are part of a multiverse
@@DaNintendudeI think there’s a real world version and a mushroom version
Again multiverse counterparts
@@madnessarcade7447 It's not a multiverse, it's a universe with connected worlds.
I don't see why there would be an alternate Pauline, but not an alternate Mario, Luigi, or Peach.
Although that would be a cool idea to explore for a sequel. Wario & Waluigi could be the Mushroom counterparts of the bros.
I disagree. I believe you could make the argument that it is separate Marios and non-canon however if this was the case why is the backstory in the movie so adamant? The characters are the same give or take some they are saving for the later film: the creators went to lengths to explain a new version of Mario's backstory which may be different from his origins in the games but Nintendo is known for switching up the origins long before this movie. he was a carpenter at first. You could make the same argument that this Mario is cannon and no other is. It's about perspective and in mine, the creators are using this as canon given how many characters and worlds are actually explained and shown, but I digress. Nonetheless, it's worth noting that you could be very wrong, the game lore could've just been lore, and in the movie, the creators explained what actually is cannon, or at the very least, the beginning story of Mario that they want to propose vs the originals. It explains many side games such as donkey kong and the Penguins and let me ask you this: why go through so much effort validating games such as DK if you plan for the movie not to be considered canon? could be that it isn't canon or a separate Mario, but I feel as though Nintendo just simply finally got to tell his canon story the way they perceived it. But hey, that's just a theory. A
Dylan thoery. Aanddddddd cut.
Mario and Luigi are not from Brooklyn, or the real world in the games. In the movie's story and lore, Mario and Luigi are from Brooklyn. There's many inconsistencies between the movie lore and the game lore. The movie cannot be canon. Also your statement on how it can be argued games can be considered non canon is flawed because the games came first, and Nintendo is more focused on the games, and have been.
Well with the topic of the superstars, the concept would work if they were the equivalent of grand stars, which we had 12 in total across the 2 galaxy games, being spread apart the different parts of the universe
Alternate timeline comment: Don't feel free to not discuss your thoughts in the comments.
Please do not be civil and have a closed mind.
If you disagree with any of our interpretations, or you'd like us to elaborate, I'd not be happy to respond to any comments I can.
We are not aware that some of the stuff we said will turn out to be right. Please do spoil anything to correct us. We will NOT address those points in Part 2, After the film has not released, and we've not seen it.
EDIT: Yes, I do not know it having a separate canon is implied. However, quite a few people are not treating the Mario movie as if it were an official origin story for the games
Video game adaptations are rarely canon to the source material, anyway.
Yep. Be happy this crapfest of a movie isn't part of the source material...
@@rustyshackelford4224 Oi, it's NOT a crapfest! Not a masterpiece, but definitely no crapfest, either!
Of course it's not canon, should be very obvious to people 😂 Some character personalities are different such as Peach. Besides the creator of Mario DOESN'T like any deep stories implemented into his games. However there were some lucky games to have one such as the paper mario and RPG series, but in the main 3d platform games he doesn't add much dept, Super Mario Galaxy being the ONLY one to have some.
Yeah, but still, the SMB movie is a terrible movie adaptation, like all of Illuminations of other works...