Well she needs to be shown not to want it so that when she changes and craves for blood, people won't claim that they always knew she was a tyrant like they did with Danny when D & D did her dirty
serious question: why do we all pretend like blocking the gullet and starving a city with 1 million civilians isn't an act of war already?All these speeches of Alicent and Rhaenyra about trying to avoid bloodshed are useless because Rhaenyra is already doing a military campaign, just a passive one Alicent and Rhaenyra had 20 years to connect and make the children close, but they remembered that "war is bad" only after it started? Like, if Viserys’s life they had tried so hard as now to avoid war, then nothing would have happened. But no, one princess did not communicate with her friend for 3 years because she believed that she deliberately married her father, then the other one held a grudge for 10 years after her father’s dismissal. And then they didn’t communicate at all for 6 years. Why try only now ?
This episode was MEH for me & I felt like I was watching a "soap opera/days of our lives" type spoof of HOTD. Ppl keep saying that last scene with Alicent/Rhaenyra was "well acted", but I didnt see it that way. The dialogue felt clunky & the acting felt stiff & forced...bc that SCENE IS hamfisted/forced in. Leaving the logistics & contrivance of that scene out of my breakdown, other than clearing up the misunderstanding of Aegon's Dream for Alicent & Rhaenyra personally -- that scene had ZERO point. It was ALWAYS going to lead to war. Otto made sure of that when he had Alicent married to Viserys & she bore Sons. For Rhaenyra (or Rhaenys, for that matter) to think that "If I can just appeal to Alicent, SHE can stop the Greens side" was a farsical notion. What Viserys wanted NEVER mattered, in life or death. Otto (& his co-conspirators) would've always crowned Aegon II. So if Rhaenyra truly wanted to "avoid war," she would've had to abdicate/step down & allow the Greens to take the throne. But she wasn't going to bc she knows she is supposed to be "rightful" Heir/Ruler & she WANTS to be Queen. So the last 3 episodes have been meandering & mostly being all the WOMEN denying reality which is staring them in the face: As soon as Aegon was crowned (which would've happened regardless of Alicent mishearing Viserys) & Rhaenyra crowning herself, this was ALWAYS going to be war. I get that the show has a very "F the Patriarchy" message & that the small councils on both sides have all the "war mongering menfolk" shouting their plans, but if anyone cares to LISTEN to them, they're not wrong. Esp, on Rhaenyra's side. All they're saying is if she keeps being indecisive, she is still allowing things to escalate AND it's possibly digging them all into a deeper hole than they might be able to recover from whenever she finally decides to act. You can be a (seemingly) passive master STRATEGIST -- like Toranaga in Shōgun -- but you CAN'T be indecisive/passive AND a shit strategist, which is where Rhaenyra finds herself. Condal said, Rhaenyra was going to risk herself before sending thousands to war & that she needed confirmation of the truth of whether or not Viserys changed his mind & now that she's got it & she now knows war is inevitable, she's ready to do what needs to be done. I feel we could've got there regardless of this scene. I felt strongly in S1 that forcing this deep loving friendship between Alicent & Rhaenyra (which doesnt exist in the books) was going to be a crutch for the show, the writing, how the characters develop & it's proving to be correct. They really had to lower the stakes, the tension & defy belivability/suspend disbelief (& audience immersion) in order to get that scene to "work". While Rhaenyra has been known for ballsy stunts before & Alicent has been shown predictably going to the Sept, SO MUCH could've gone wrong. It screams plot armor, of the worse kind.
I honestly was expecting a scene like this before the season started. and I am glad that they added this. See, the series name is "House of the Dragon" and the first episode of s1 says what the story is about. Its about keeping the legacy of House Targaryen. I want to know what is the house of the dragon doing so that it is worthy of being part of a story that I would want to listen to. This scene is the perfect moment where it confirms whether Alicent was right or wrong doer. Alicent is not directly to be blamed.
My only point I would counter about how outrageous it seems on face value that Alicent is at her prayers completely unprotected, is that typically whilst royalty wish to pray at the Sept, especially for someone like Alicent who is highly religious and makes frequent if not daily trips, the Sept is usually cleared of everyone besides septons and septas, meaning it is fully closed to the general public for the duration of the royal’s visit. And this is historically accurate, as well as consistent within the ASOIAF universe. So the idea that Alicent would be able to be approached by a septa, and that her guards may be a few paces away to give her true privacy while at her prayers, isn’t such a stretch. It’s stupid considering that they didn’t consider exactly what Rhaeneyra did, like anyone could disguise themselves. But at least she wouldn’t be at risk of a random commoner having access to her.
It's still dumb. Sure, they keep a respectful distance while Alicent prays, but allowing unvetted individuals to approach her? Carrying a concealed weapon no less?
@@ToeKnife166GREAT username bro! I agree, this happens shortly after two decidedly not-professional goons playing at assassin snuck in and slew a member of team green. After such an incredibly huge breakdown of security, you'd think even Cole would have been insisting on enhanced security
How exactly could Alicent stop the war after meeting with Rhaenyra? Are we watching the same show? Otto had every intention of crowning Aegon with or without Alicent’s revelation about Vicerys naming him heir. His plan had been in the works for years. Also Rhaenys told Rhaenyra men would rather tear the realm apart rather than see a woman ascend the Iron Throne. This was BEFOEE Vicerys married Alicenr in season 1. She also told Corlys that Rhaenyra’s claim would be challenged when they talked about Laenor marrying Rhaenyra. There was always going to be challenges. Rhaenyra should have known this just as she should have known Alicenr is powerless to stop the war.
Alicent should have just screamed for the guards and ended the war right there. In fact the very fact that her bodyguards let someone kneel right next to her is dumb.
@@michaelbuick6995 It’s not in either one’s character but you are absolutely right. Neither has the gumption to do what it takes to win. Thus the dance of dragons.
@jdsthird Yeah I get that. But at some point they have to be in with both feet. Are we going to be on Season 3 and the Fishfeed and they're still trying to pull their punches? I really have no confidence in these writers.
@@michaelbuick6995 I think the next episode will be an explosion so to speak. I look at season 1 and this first third of season two as all set up. It was not an enviable task to condense decades of history into the time jumps but I think they managed it as best they could. Now we get into the near which is the actual telling of the story. I hoping they stick the landing. It’s still possible. It hasn’t been all bad.
The biggest mistake the show is making more and more. Is the fact it isn't about Aegon and Rhaenyra, and their famlie. Is to much about Alicent and Rhaenyra. Al promo shoots or foto's do that too. Alicent standing first, and after Aegon and stuff.
I think with this one scene they have completely ruined the entire narrative. Season one Aemond and Vhagar murder Rhaenyra's son Lucerys and the final shot of the season is Rhaenyra receiving the news, then turning to the camera with an expression of pure grief and rage. The gloves are well and truly OFF. But Rhaenyra's arc these passed 3 episodes is her back peddling and trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube! Keep in mind, Lucerys was on a mission to get House Baratheon to swear for Team Black she was laying the groundwork for a war before he was even killed. Season 2 Episode 1 Rhaenyra should have been coming out swinging this scene kills all narrative tension stone dead.
@visupreme2757 She didn't though. Daemon did the whole Blood & Cheese thing on his own initiative, and even then the little being killed was because Daemon gave unclear instructions. Rhaenyra was shocked and appalled by Jaehaerys's death.
@@michaelbuick6995 Exactly she was shocked and appalled because her order indirectly resulted in getting her nephews head chopped off while he was sleeping. That completely changes how a person would think and it would've been out of character for rhaenyra to not be shaken by the act and not try a one last hurrah to end the war especially after almost dying and having her children being sent away because it isn't safe.
This scene tried to whitewash Rhaenyra and Alicent. Make it look like they are good people and it is the fault of the men around them. Not saying the men are innocent but both Rhaenyra and Alicent should also take responsibility.
Which is weird because I dare say in fire and blood Alicent was far more active in starting the war than even Otto it’s called the Queen’s party for a reason
It was such a CW teen drama of a scene,I was dissatisfied on the writers.they could have had this interaction after the queen takes back kings landing as part of the miss communication that causes wars
Rhaenerya has many reasons to try and seek peace in person: 1) Her life and family was just threatened 2) Her small council suggests no other options but war 3) She wants to find out for herself how Alicent could betray her and yet regret the death of her son thru the note of the raven 4) She knows from her childhood how no guards are allowed in the Sept and that Alicent likes to go there alone. And when she likes to go there. 5) She needs to hear from Alicent why she thinks her father changed his mind 6) Those nuns are basically invisible and nobody pays them any attention 7) Even Daemon doesn't know about the Song of Ice and Fire so Otto prolly doesn't either 8) She knows the Sept is the one place where Alicent would be loathe to lie 9) She needed to face Alicent after the death of Aegon's son 10) She can now tell the small council and anyone else who would listen how Aegon came to power. Throwing more doubt into Aegon's claim to power. 11) Knowing Alicent ...she will confess to Larys and/or some others close to the throne about Aegon's illegitamcy to be king. Causing more cracks in the House of Greene. Possibly justifying Aemond, who is already on edge to take Aegon out.
Honestly, my problem with the scene is not its existence but rather when it was placed. If it happened before Lukes death or even before Blood and Cheese. I would be completely okay with the scene. You could have justified it as Rhaenyra not wanting to lose any more of her children. However, after Blood and Cheese, this is the point of no return, or at least it was supposed to be
Imagine if a Stark or Martell character did this kind of thing? They would never get to see the light of another day. The imbalance of plot armor between each house is real and the Targaryens have too much of it. the Starks/Martells would die right away after making ONE mistake while the Targaryens got their second chances over and over again.
I mean Rhaenyra is known for making impulsive decisions like flying to dragonstone. It’s not just bc she’s a Targ, it works bc she has a connection with Alicent and knows she wouldn’t kill her.
@@ml.9417 It is steal a very risky move from Rhaenyra's part. Alicent just lost her grandson, in a brutal way. How could she be certain that Alicent won't be mad with grief and won't attempt vengeance or stop the war and countless death by seizing Rhaenyra. Mind you the letters that prompt Rhaenyra to go were sent back in episode 1, before blood and cheese. It is just very risky, and in the world of asoiaf would have led to some terrible consequences
It is mostly because this scene is completely fabricated doesn’t happen or is mentioned in the book and actually Rhaenyra is portrayed far more ruthlessly and uncompromising, if they punish her in this scene the rest of the story doesn’t happen so yeah pure plot armor
In reality without plot armor Larys Strong would’ve definitely known the presence of Rhaenyra and pull a Littlefinger by arresting her like Ned was for making the same mistake of going to /staying in kings landing, executing her and game over, you are right
I think the scene will set up later fallout for Alicent. Per the book, she goes slowly insane (paraphrasing, of course). This will add to that line for the show. The coming to terms of her mistake led to the deaths of all four of her children, all of her grandchildren, her brother l, and father. I honestly think that's going to make her final outcome tragic instead of 'you get what you deserve'. Plus, it sets up Aegon III being kind-ish to her after the war.
But Aegon was going to be crown king no matter what, the small council had already secretly planned it. They didn’t even let Alicent in on the plans because she is irrelevant.
I do not like that rhaenyra risked everything to talk to alicent when it was a guaranteed that war was going to happen. The whole reveal of the song of ice and fire could have happened in season 3. The fact that alicent and rhaenyra are so calm next to each other after the death of Luke and aegon son seems so unrealistic to me. Good video topic.
@@ToeKnife166 This is just a dumb take. Helaena is clearly coping by convincing herself that she is fine and that she shouldn’t be feeling grief. This is clearly an unhealthy way of coping that won’t be effective for a long time.
I mean, how many would you expect? I would assume that in the olden days, they would not have had so many more. Also, she is not in public _per se_ but in a publicly accessible "church", where one might even assume that any assassination attempt was off limits - when for example the Duke of Florence _was_ attacked in church, the repercussions for anyone involved were absolutely _massive_.
It's so mind boggling how none of these dudes have security. It's like the writers of the show can't be bothered to figure out how to get around guards, so they just dont include them. why is alicent by herself in this scene?
Because she is in "church". Put simply, the concept of having a 24/7 Secret Service like supervision is a very new one. And even today, that is basically just the US president - even other heads of state do not have that level of security. And there have been assaults on members of the British Royal family in the 1960ies (I think) where those people were effectively on their own.
I don’t think the show even frames Rhaenyra as overly righteous. The audience is just so obsessed with the good guy bad guy dichotomy that they end up seeing versions of characters that aren’t even being portrayed.
What? She clearly is They kill her som and she still wants peace and you think she is not been portrayed as overly righteous? The writers are doing everything possible to make a claim that Rhaenyra did everything and only fought because she had no other choice, if it were up to her (as the good Queen) she would not fight
Me having read the books and watching this scene: "Wow this is a big change". It did not flow well at all and doesn't make sense with the stakes established
So there is an edit mistake at 00:33 but since youtube won't let you fix it without disrupting the video, and they kind of punish us for re-uploads, I'm afraid it has to stay as is.
Yeah after this i really dont think ill be continuing to watch this show. I feel like people are watching it just because its linked to game of thrones and hoping it will get better. If they keep releasing shows with bad writing and their numbers dont drop it just enables them to be lazy and continue this bad behaviour.
I think the scene was a good idea, but found it frustrating that Rhaenyra stops short of explaining the entire prophecy to Alicent. It's like once she hears the information she's looking for to answer her own question she doesn't take it any further. If you're trying to negotiate your way out of a war after there have been injustices and murders on both sides, you'd better have a damned good reason. A prophecy that could doom everyone IS such a reason. But instead she brushes it off as "it was this story my father used to tell," like NO dumbass, it's existential and the entire reason he named you his heir! To call that a missed opportunity is an understatement. It seems so pointless that they had that conversation only to resolve to go to war anyway. Rhaenyra, if she REALLY cared about the prophecy, could simply offer to step down from her claim and meet with the council at King's Landing to explain the prophecy to them and collaborate on a plan going forward. But I think she wants to be queen for the sake of being queen, like to validate her father's love for her. And Alicent obviously doesn't care that both her sons are rabid psychopaths, so she's an even worse problem.
I didn’t like this scene but hopefully it pushes Rhaenyra into being more like her book counterpart. She’s no longer got room for hope, the dragons have to dance.
I appreciate alicent finding out her Aegon is not the Aegon Viserys was talking about which should have been obvious but I agree that it could be removed and nothing changes we only got 8 episodes no time to waste on conversations that should have been had a long time ago
This is the exact same scene as the dragon egg scene with Daemon. Rhaenyra has always been reckless and would risk her own life if she can resolve a problem. Plus she needed clarity and Alicent as well apparently. Also, she needed to be shown trying her best to advocate for peace so that when she turns into a tyrant we know how she tried. And last, the scene was setting up for the later confrontation she would have with Alicent who will hypocritically offer the solution she was supposed to propose in that scene when Rhaenyra takes Kingslanding. That is why this scene exist. It makes sense as it aligns with who Rhaenyra is. Her recklessness is showed over and over in the show. First when she goes to fetch the egg from Daemon, when she has two more children with Harwin when people suspect her first child not to be Laenor's. When she marries Daemon shortly after Laenor "dies" and when she goes to seduce Cole after her escapades with Daemon. So it makes logical sense if you study the character herself
they need this scene to level the ground, fix the communication mistakes and make clear both know what happened with Viserys last words, so they can go to war intentionally and not based in some misundertanding; however, it was absolutly unnecesary, they dont need to know the true, they're going to war with just a partial view would make it even more tragic, but I think this is the showrunners trying to adress all the changes they did with the plot from the book
You can’t really take the books as gospel when they’re not a first hand account of what took place during the Dance of the Dragons, George RR Martin has stated that the show was a more true to form series events versus the books which are a narrated account of what supposedly happened
@@Tony78432 I was just asking because I genuinely forgot but trying to get the viewers to believe that twice the blacks have been able to infiltrate kings landing and get within speaking distance of the leadership is a tough ask. Let alone after the city has been on lockdown since the death of a heir to the throne.
I don't disagree with the idea that Reynera needs to have one last chance to settle things peacefully, but the framing of Reynera sneaking into Kings Landing to have this conversation is unbelievable. They could've given a believable reason for the two to meet outside of King's Landing. That being said, I don't disagree with you that this conversation shouldn't have happened in the first place. From a non-book fan, I think this is the only major slip the show has made so far, but it can be saved if gets pay off in the story later.
I really don't know what incredible expectations GOT built (nor anything about the seemingly dumspter fire that was season 7-8), but personally, a scene not being 100% coherent/making sense isn't enough to be considered "bad writing". Particularly when you have such a powerful & emotional storytelling that changes the whole perspective of the war (because it confirms that there's no other way, there's nothing more hurtful than a false hope) that goes along with it. It's a common trade in writing stories. Again i don't know how traumatizing GOT bad writing was. But a character taking risk shouldn't be enough to discredit the whole episode...It's just really petty-minded. Also, people seems to forget what is a slow-burn.... Rhaenyra rage went here "I want Aemond Targaryen", and will surely resurges back.Causing an innocent toddler death is a reasonable reason, to step back and think rather than to simply hate-kill everyone. And you can literally see her stoically raising a sword. Just wait for the actual battles to start, to see everyone in rage-mode. Ali/Nyra didn't cause any direct harm to another, it is more than justified, why they wouldn't jump at each other's throat Also EP4 & previews confirms it, it doesn't diminish any deaths
I think this scene sticks out so much because it's such a dip in logic compared to the rest of the show. Fortunately, it's right at the end of the episode so you can just chose to end the episode where you want and pretend it never happened. Which is what I'm gonna do.
You'd think after so much of early GoT portrayed very "grey" characters, general audiences would be able to appreciate more complex charactiersation. HBO may have, perhaps carelessly, made this worse with their "All Men Must Choose," marketing. I understand the need to promote the show but having such a B/W tagline must have seemed overly simplistic to at least some of the staff. At worst, the 'pick a side' language suggests a disregard for the source material by glossing over the pains grrm took to show the conflict in its broader context. He provides like 150 years of pre-story and the book continues for a not insignificant amount of time after the main "Dance" events have wound down. Throughout we are shown differing perspectives, outcomes and even characterisation, to the point the reader is quite literally told to 'choose their own adventure' as they say. They should have honoured the ambiguous spirit of the book while using it as an opportunity to show more textured performances. HBO is supposed to do better than lowest common denominator
1) It made no sense that Alicent did absolutely nothing when seeing Rhaenyra (however the hell you spell it). She could’ve damn near ended the war but she decided to do nothing. 2) It’s kinda starting to come off as “Men are emotionally unstable and women make better rulers.” It’s not full woke but I’m concerned it’s heading in that direction.
it was written by people who were there, by first hand and second hand accounts and with the biases of people in the story. princess and the queen to fire and blood was written with bias towards the greens, but much of the information they gathered are based in real records. the accuracy of records of medieval history depends on if you were noble/royal and or clergy. fire and blood was mostly true to its telling of the dance (primarily because its based irl on the story of matilda) and follows through expanding princess and the queen and the rogue prince. if you read it well, you'll be easily sure to point out which is not true and which are. thats how you study historical texts. the way ryan condal and sara hess wrote this show is very much more fanfiction than it ever was loyal to the telling of accurate historical record.
@@sixeyesheavens7 Why does all y’all people say the actually same thing & be mostly wrong like how did y’all read the book & don’t kno the maester named that actually wrote the book 💀btw the maester that wrote fire & blood wasn’t alive when the dance happened so idk what you talking about his name was Gyldayn also you can’t believe anything that mushroom said the guy was a weirdo you look in mushroom testimony he have lots of weird stuff in it about rhaenyra 🤦🏼♂️like wtf and you can’t believe that maester that’s on team green think his name Orwyle or whatever he was favoring the greens so Orwyle & mushroom Pov doesn’t mean those things was actually true the whole book Fire & Blood is from they POV so yeah btw the book is the book & the series is the series grrm confirmed it’s 2 different universes so things that happened in book won’t happen the same way that’s my point & if you wanna check up on your facts or whatever just go look up grrm talkin about Fire & Blood aren’t from a reliable source okay
@@latj16x the maester you point out was munkun and munkun took much of his work from orwyle who was a green but he incorporated much of what he wrote with eustace too who is the man who crowned aegon cause he had a cock. also, mushroom is 75% wrong most of the time, 25% correct of the time. but the 25% is something you have to dissect. people forget that court jesters and fools also have connections in royal courts. he could easily get people to tell him things via ravens. the fact that you're being told not to listen to him when he's the only black voice in the narratives is kind of crazy when the rest are greens. grrm heavily is team black and one of the ways you can tell is where he also puts the blackwoods, one of his favorite houses. the fact that he made most of the greens war criminals especially aemond who burned down half the riverlands is also telling. like, grrm based this off real life history called the anarchy, where a woman's throne was stolen and men ruined the realm. its pretty sure who grrm is siding with ESPECIALLY because daemon targaryen is his favorite. to the point he made him a novella of his own 😭
@@sixeyesheavens7 lmao Grrm is team black I can’t say that’s a lie cause he did a video a while ago saying his favorite Targaryen was daemon so yeah that makes sense I just hate when ppl compare it tho like the show & the book in their own universe so I don’t get why lots of ppl compare it & what’s the name of the story this based on I wanna check it out
@@latj16x i would have forgiven the show if there was competence. i read princess and the queen in 2013 when it came out. i and other book fans have been here a long time and to see what we love be butchered by incompetent writing, just two seasons in because they wanna write a fanfiction is painful. hess and condal can learn a thing or two from interview with a vampire's adaptation. they made multiple changes in the story but it all made sense and they have addressed details to the smallest one. its so simple. if they want to adapt a book for television, be competent at it. dont piss off the main source of audience.
i didnt enjoy this scene because it negates so much. it negates rhaenyra's anger about luke's death, it forces the legitimacy of aegon i's dream going to people who don't deserve it. they negate the fact that alicent was rhaenyra's abuser. they negate the years of pain alicent put on rhaenyra. hell, they made rhaenyra and rhaenys lessen in their anger and willingness to go to war. they made rhaenyra act like a fool, trying to save a relationship that can and never should have been saved. she should be angry with alicent, she should want vengence, she should want relief. the fact that they think this makes good on what story they're trying to transport in television from book is quite painful to watch. i waited near a decade since princess and the queen to see an adaptation of the dance. and to think this scene was even here, its just baffling to me.
You probably have to get past your book reader viewpoint somehow, I’d guess around 90% of viewers liked that scene regardless how it came about… it’s tv ffs, they add drama where needed and I’ve watched a fair few reaction vids that suggest that it was enjoyable… should they cater to 10% or 90%?
Call me crazy, but I think the House of Dragon show is absolute trash. Its 99% exposition from characters we dont care about. Watch the first 15 minutes of the 1st episode of GOT and then watch the first 15 minutes of HOD and see what grips you more. As a huge GOT fan..I honestly dont know why this show is popular at all
Well then you probably are crazy to even ask such an obvious question. GOT has developed one of the largest and most loyal fanbase throughout the years it aired. Obviously people are going to be interested in the Targaryens after seven seasons of dragons and tidbits of lore about their civil war... Believe it or not, some people actually have the patience to watch past the first 15 minutes, even if it didn't have white walkers, if they actually cared to learn more about the ASOIAF universe.
This is not an attempt to slam this show. Out of 13 episodes at the time of this video, this is only one scene I don’t love.
Team green and the rest of team black: “We want war, Rhaenyra. Do you want war?”
Rhaenyra: “I don’t wannit. I neva av.”
Well she needs to be shown not to want it so that when she changes and craves for blood, people won't claim that they always knew she was a tyrant like they did with Danny when D & D did her dirty
serious question: why do we all pretend like blocking the gullet and starving a city with 1 million civilians isn't an act of war already?All these speeches of Alicent and Rhaenyra about trying to avoid bloodshed are useless because Rhaenyra is already doing a military campaign, just a passive one
Alicent and Rhaenyra had 20 years to connect and make the children close, but they remembered that "war is bad" only after it started? Like, if Viserys’s life they had tried so hard as now to avoid war, then nothing would have happened. But no, one princess did not communicate with her friend for 3 years because she believed that she deliberately married her father, then the other one held a grudge for 10 years after her father’s dismissal. And then they didn’t communicate at all for 6 years. Why try only now ?
This episode was MEH for me & I felt like I was watching a "soap opera/days of our lives" type spoof of HOTD. Ppl keep saying that last scene with Alicent/Rhaenyra was "well acted", but I didnt see it that way. The dialogue felt clunky & the acting felt stiff & forced...bc that SCENE IS hamfisted/forced in.
Leaving the logistics & contrivance of that scene out of my breakdown, other than clearing up the misunderstanding of Aegon's Dream for Alicent & Rhaenyra personally -- that scene had ZERO point.
It was ALWAYS going to lead to war. Otto made sure of that when he had Alicent married to Viserys & she bore Sons.
For Rhaenyra (or Rhaenys, for that matter) to think that "If I can just appeal to Alicent, SHE can stop the Greens side" was a farsical notion.
What Viserys wanted NEVER mattered, in life or death. Otto (& his co-conspirators) would've always crowned Aegon II. So if Rhaenyra truly wanted to "avoid war," she would've had to abdicate/step down & allow the Greens to take the throne.
But she wasn't going to bc she knows she is supposed to be "rightful" Heir/Ruler & she WANTS to be Queen.
So the last 3 episodes have been meandering & mostly being all the WOMEN denying reality which is staring them in the face: As soon as Aegon was crowned (which would've happened regardless of Alicent mishearing Viserys) & Rhaenyra crowning herself, this was ALWAYS going to be war.
I get that the show has a very "F the Patriarchy" message & that the small councils on both sides have all the "war mongering menfolk" shouting their plans, but if anyone cares to LISTEN to them, they're not wrong.
Esp, on Rhaenyra's side. All they're saying is if she keeps being indecisive, she is still allowing things to escalate AND it's possibly digging them all into a deeper hole than they might be able to recover from whenever she finally decides to act.
You can be a (seemingly) passive master STRATEGIST -- like Toranaga in Shōgun -- but you CAN'T be indecisive/passive AND a shit strategist, which is where Rhaenyra finds herself.
Condal said, Rhaenyra was going to risk herself before sending thousands to war & that she needed confirmation of the truth of whether or not Viserys changed his mind & now that she's got it & she now knows war is inevitable, she's ready to do what needs to be done.
I feel we could've got there regardless of this scene.
I felt strongly in S1 that forcing this deep loving friendship between Alicent & Rhaenyra (which doesnt exist in the books) was going to be a crutch for the show, the writing, how the characters develop & it's proving to be correct.
They really had to lower the stakes, the tension & defy belivability/suspend disbelief (& audience immersion) in order to get that scene to "work".
While Rhaenyra has been known for ballsy stunts before & Alicent has been shown predictably going to the Sept, SO MUCH could've gone wrong. It screams plot armor, of the worse kind.
Condal is making the same mistakes D&D made in GoT: writing scenes that don't make sense for the sake of wowing the audience.
I honestly was expecting a scene like this before the season started. and I am glad that they added this. See, the series name is "House of the Dragon" and the first episode of s1 says what the story is about. Its about keeping the legacy of House Targaryen. I want to know what is the house of the dragon doing so that it is worthy of being part of a story that I would want to listen to. This scene is the perfect moment where it confirms whether Alicent was right or wrong doer. Alicent is not directly to be blamed.
Yeah, this broke my immersion for sure. It made no sense AND it felt cheap and like it was handholding
My only point I would counter about how outrageous it seems on face value that Alicent is at her prayers completely unprotected, is that typically whilst royalty wish to pray at the Sept, especially for someone like Alicent who is highly religious and makes frequent if not daily trips, the Sept is usually cleared of everyone besides septons and septas, meaning it is fully closed to the general public for the duration of the royal’s visit. And this is historically accurate, as well as consistent within the ASOIAF universe. So the idea that Alicent would be able to be approached by a septa, and that her guards may be a few paces away to give her true privacy while at her prayers, isn’t such a stretch. It’s stupid considering that they didn’t consider exactly what Rhaeneyra did, like anyone could disguise themselves. But at least she wouldn’t be at risk of a random commoner having access to her.
There is always a lack of security, I expect her to be surrounded by ground at all times since blood and cheese
@@ToeKnife166 it does feel pretty freaking stupid to me personally.
It's still dumb. Sure, they keep a respectful distance while Alicent prays, but allowing unvetted individuals to approach her? Carrying a concealed weapon no less?
@@ToeKnife166GREAT username bro! I agree, this happens shortly after two decidedly not-professional goons playing at assassin snuck in and slew a member of team green.
After such an incredibly huge breakdown of security, you'd think even Cole would have been insisting on enhanced security
How exactly could Alicent stop the war after meeting with Rhaenyra? Are we watching the same show? Otto had every intention of crowning Aegon with or without Alicent’s revelation about Vicerys naming him heir. His plan had been in the works for years. Also Rhaenys told Rhaenyra men would rather tear the realm apart rather than see a woman ascend the Iron Throne. This was BEFOEE Vicerys married Alicenr in season 1. She also told Corlys that Rhaenyra’s claim would be challenged when they talked about Laenor marrying Rhaenyra. There was always going to be challenges. Rhaenyra should have known this just as she should have known Alicenr is powerless to stop the war.
Alicent should have just screamed for the guards and ended the war right there. In fact the very fact that her bodyguards let someone kneel right next to her is dumb.
@@michaelbuick6995 It’s not in either one’s character but you are absolutely right. Neither has the gumption to do what it takes to win. Thus the dance of dragons.
@jdsthird Yeah I get that. But at some point they have to be in with both feet. Are we going to be on Season 3 and the Fishfeed and they're still trying to pull their punches? I really have no confidence in these writers.
@@michaelbuick6995 I think the next episode will be an explosion so to speak. I look at season 1 and this first third of season two as all set up. It was not an enviable task to condense decades of history into the time jumps but I think they managed it as best they could. Now we get into the near which is the actual telling of the story. I hoping they stick the landing. It’s still possible. It hasn’t been all bad.
Everyone can just sneak into Kings Landing in HoTD and GOT except when they need to most at the climax.. amazing writing.
The biggest mistake the show is making more and more. Is the fact it isn't about Aegon and Rhaenyra, and their famlie. Is to much about Alicent and Rhaenyra.
Al promo shoots or foto's do that too. Alicent standing first, and after Aegon and stuff.
With how clunky and forced this scene was, it seems like it was added in at the last minute. It’s so damned stupid that it hurts my brain.
I think with this one scene they have completely ruined the entire narrative. Season one Aemond and Vhagar murder Rhaenyra's son Lucerys and the final shot of the season is Rhaenyra receiving the news, then turning to the camera with an expression of pure grief and rage. The gloves are well and truly OFF.
But Rhaenyra's arc these passed 3 episodes is her back peddling and trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube!
Keep in mind, Lucerys was on a mission to get House Baratheon to swear for Team Black she was laying the groundwork for a war before he was even killed.
Season 2 Episode 1 Rhaenyra should have been coming out swinging this scene kills all narrative tension stone dead.
she got a baby killed
@visupreme2757 She didn't though. Daemon did the whole Blood & Cheese thing on his own initiative, and even then the little being killed was because Daemon gave unclear instructions. Rhaenyra was shocked and appalled by Jaehaerys's death.
@@michaelbuick6995 Exactly she was shocked and appalled because her order indirectly resulted in getting her nephews head chopped off while he was sleeping. That completely changes how a person would think and it would've been out of character for rhaenyra to not be shaken by the act and not try a one last hurrah to end the war especially after almost dying and having her children being sent away because it isn't safe.
@visupreme2757 one last hurrah at WHAT though? Avoiding war? She still wants the throne and Aegon isn't about to step aside.
This scene tried to whitewash Rhaenyra and Alicent. Make it look like they are good people and it is the fault of the men around them. Not saying the men are innocent but both Rhaenyra and Alicent should also take responsibility.
Which is weird because I dare say in fire and blood Alicent was far more active in starting the war than even Otto it’s called the Queen’s party for a reason
It was such a CW teen drama of a scene,I was dissatisfied on the writers.they could have had this interaction after the queen takes back kings landing as part of the miss communication that causes wars
Glad I've read the book several times last summer before I read this comment!
Rhaenerya has many reasons to try and seek peace in person:
1) Her life and family was just threatened
2) Her small council suggests no other options but war
3) She wants to find out for herself how Alicent could betray her and yet regret the death of her son thru the note of the raven
4) She knows from her childhood how no guards are allowed in the Sept and that Alicent likes to go there alone. And when she likes to go there.
5) She needs to hear from Alicent why she thinks her father changed his mind
6) Those nuns are basically invisible and nobody pays them any attention
7) Even Daemon doesn't know about the Song of Ice and Fire so Otto prolly doesn't either
8) She knows the Sept is the one place where Alicent would be loathe to lie
9) She needed to face Alicent after the death of Aegon's son
10) She can now tell the small council and anyone else who would listen how Aegon came to power. Throwing more doubt into Aegon's claim to power.
11) Knowing Alicent ...she will confess to Larys and/or some others close to the throne about Aegon's illegitamcy to be king. Causing more cracks in the House of Greene. Possibly justifying Aemond, who is already on edge to take Aegon out.
Honestly, my problem with the scene is not its existence but rather when it was placed. If it happened before Lukes death or even before Blood and Cheese. I would be completely okay with the scene. You could have justified it as Rhaenyra not wanting to lose any more of her children. However, after Blood and Cheese, this is the point of no return, or at least it was supposed to be
Yeah that true. @@nottoday2511
Imagine if a Stark or Martell character did this kind of thing? They would never get to see the light of another day.
The imbalance of plot armor between each house is real and the Targaryens have too much of it.
the Starks/Martells would die right away after making ONE mistake while the Targaryens got their second chances over and over again.
I mean Rhaenyra is known for making impulsive decisions like flying to dragonstone. It’s not just bc she’s a Targ, it works bc she has a connection with Alicent and knows she wouldn’t kill her.
Ok. Cool.
Like yeah some houses have better luck? idk what to tell you.
@@ml.9417 It is steal a very risky move from Rhaenyra's part. Alicent just lost her grandson, in a brutal way. How could she be certain that Alicent won't be mad with grief and won't attempt vengeance or stop the war and countless death by seizing Rhaenyra. Mind you the letters that prompt Rhaenyra to go were sent back in episode 1, before blood and cheese. It is just very risky, and in the world of asoiaf would have led to some terrible consequences
It is mostly because this scene is completely fabricated doesn’t happen or is mentioned in the book and actually Rhaenyra is portrayed far more ruthlessly and uncompromising, if they punish her in this scene the rest of the story doesn’t happen so yeah pure plot armor
In reality without plot armor Larys Strong would’ve definitely known the presence of Rhaenyra and pull a Littlefinger by arresting her like Ned was for making the same mistake of going to /staying in kings landing, executing her and game over, you are right
I think the scene will set up later fallout for Alicent. Per the book, she goes slowly insane (paraphrasing, of course). This will add to that line for the show. The coming to terms of her mistake led to the deaths of all four of her children, all of her grandchildren, her brother l, and father. I honestly think that's going to make her final outcome tragic instead of 'you get what you deserve'. Plus, it sets up Aegon III being kind-ish to her after the war.
But Aegon was going to be crown king no matter what, the small council had already secretly planned it. They didn’t even let Alicent in on the plans because she is irrelevant.
She only lives another year or so after the war anyway. Aegon III was still only a kid.
I do not like that rhaenyra risked everything to talk to alicent when it was a guaranteed that war was going to happen. The whole reveal of the song of ice and fire could have happened in season 3. The fact that alicent and rhaenyra are so calm next to each other after the death of Luke and aegon son seems so unrealistic to me.
Good video topic.
And Heleana doesn’t care about her dead son 😂
@@ToeKnife166 she doesnt go mad either...definitely the worst episode of the series
@@ToeKnife166 This is just a dumb take. Helaena is clearly coping by convincing herself that she is fine and that she shouldn’t be feeling grief. This is clearly an unhealthy way of coping that won’t be effective for a long time.
@@petko6926 I would agree if she was the only one who stopped caring about the death of her relative - but all the characters are like this
Alicent walking around in public with only two guards 😂
I mean, how many would you expect? I would assume that in the olden days, they would not have had so many more. Also, she is not in public _per se_ but in a publicly accessible "church", where one might even assume that any assassination attempt was off limits - when for example the Duke of Florence _was_ attacked in church, the repercussions for anyone involved were absolutely _massive_.
Both of whom let someone disguised as a septa and carrying a concealed knife kneel right next to her.
It's so mind boggling how none of these dudes have security. It's like the writers of the show can't be bothered to figure out how to get around guards, so they just dont include them. why is alicent by herself in this scene?
Because she is in "church". Put simply, the concept of having a 24/7 Secret Service like supervision is a very new one. And even today, that is basically just the US president - even other heads of state do not have that level of security. And there have been assaults on members of the British Royal family in the 1960ies (I think) where those people were effectively on their own.
I don’t think the show even frames Rhaenyra as overly righteous. The audience is just so obsessed with the good guy bad guy dichotomy that they end up seeing versions of characters that aren’t even being portrayed.
They fuel it
@@ToeKnife166 people who think in black and white fuel the conception that Rhaenyra is portrayed as overly righteous - agreed.
An interesting point! I just think she should’ve been more like her Fire and blood counter part after Luce’s death
@@porneliushubertsthaicuisin1316 and that's part of the problem. Let's talk about what we see. Not what we want to see
What?
She clearly is
They kill her som and she still wants peace and you think she is not been portrayed as overly righteous?
The writers are doing everything possible to make a claim that Rhaenyra did everything and only fought because she had no other choice, if it were up to her (as the good Queen) she would not fight
Me having read the books and watching this scene: "Wow this is a big change". It did not flow well at all and doesn't make sense with the stakes established
So there is an edit mistake at 00:33 but since youtube won't let you fix it without disrupting the video, and they kind of punish us for re-uploads, I'm afraid it has to stay as is.
Treachery!. How dare you maek a mistakke
Yeah after this i really dont think ill be continuing to watch this show. I feel like people are watching it just because its linked to game of thrones and hoping it will get better. If they keep releasing shows with bad writing and their numbers dont drop it just enables them to be lazy and continue this bad behaviour.
I think the scene was a good idea, but found it frustrating that Rhaenyra stops short of explaining the entire prophecy to Alicent. It's like once she hears the information she's looking for to answer her own question she doesn't take it any further. If you're trying to negotiate your way out of a war after there have been injustices and murders on both sides, you'd better have a damned good reason. A prophecy that could doom everyone IS such a reason. But instead she brushes it off as "it was this story my father used to tell," like NO dumbass, it's existential and the entire reason he named you his heir! To call that a missed opportunity is an understatement. It seems so pointless that they had that conversation only to resolve to go to war anyway. Rhaenyra, if she REALLY cared about the prophecy, could simply offer to step down from her claim and meet with the council at King's Landing to explain the prophecy to them and collaborate on a plan going forward. But I think she wants to be queen for the sake of being queen, like to validate her father's love for her. And Alicent obviously doesn't care that both her sons are rabid psychopaths, so she's an even worse problem.
I didn’t like this scene but hopefully it pushes Rhaenyra into being more like her book counterpart. She’s no longer got room for hope, the dragons have to dance.
I appreciate alicent finding out her Aegon is not the Aegon Viserys was talking about which should have been obvious but I agree that it could be removed and nothing changes we only got 8 episodes no time to waste on conversations that should have been had a long time ago
This is the exact same scene as the dragon egg scene with Daemon. Rhaenyra has always been reckless and would risk her own life if she can resolve a problem. Plus she needed clarity and Alicent as well apparently. Also, she needed to be shown trying her best to advocate for peace so that when she turns into a tyrant we know how she tried. And last, the scene was setting up for the later confrontation she would have with Alicent who will hypocritically offer the solution she was supposed to propose in that scene when Rhaenyra takes Kingslanding. That is why this scene exist. It makes sense as it aligns with who Rhaenyra is. Her recklessness is showed over and over in the show. First when she goes to fetch the egg from Daemon, when she has two more children with Harwin when people suspect her first child not to be Laenor's. When she marries Daemon shortly after Laenor "dies" and when she goes to seduce Cole after her escapades with Daemon. So it makes logical sense if you study the character herself
they need this scene to level the ground, fix the communication mistakes and make clear both know what happened with Viserys last words, so they can go to war intentionally and not based in some misundertanding; however, it was absolutly unnecesary, they dont need to know the true, they're going to war with just a partial view would make it even more tragic, but I think this is the showrunners trying to adress all the changes they did with the plot from the book
This is a weird scene in a good episode
Wait I dont remember this happening in the books. Did it?
No it did not.
Why would it appear in the books when those accounts were not written by one of these two?
You can’t really take the books as gospel when they’re not a first hand account of what took place during the Dance of the Dragons, George RR Martin has stated that the show was a more true to form series events versus the books which are a narrated account of what supposedly happened
@@Tony78432 I was just asking because I genuinely forgot but trying to get the viewers to believe that twice the blacks have been able to infiltrate kings landing and get within speaking distance of the leadership is a tough ask. Let alone after the city has been on lockdown since the death of a heir to the throne.
Alicent and Rhaenyra hate eachother in the books. It's a show only think.
Very weak episode. The bad writing reveals how truly weak these two actresses are compared to Emily Carey and Milly Alcock
Lmao you're joking. They're the best actors in the show.
@@Hero_Of_Old no way. Best actors are Paddy Considine and Rhys Ifans. These two actresses can barely get through a scene without cringey acting
I don't disagree with the idea that Reynera needs to have one last chance to settle things peacefully, but the framing of Reynera sneaking into Kings Landing to have this conversation is unbelievable. They could've given a believable reason for the two to meet outside of King's Landing. That being said, I don't disagree with you that this conversation shouldn't have happened in the first place. From a non-book fan, I think this is the only major slip the show has made so far, but it can be saved if gets pay off in the story later.
I really don't know what incredible expectations GOT built (nor anything about the seemingly dumspter fire that was season 7-8), but personally, a scene not being 100% coherent/making sense isn't enough to be considered "bad writing". Particularly when you have such a powerful & emotional storytelling that changes the whole perspective of the war (because it confirms that there's no other way, there's nothing more hurtful than a false hope) that goes along with it. It's a common trade in writing stories. Again i don't know how traumatizing GOT bad writing was. But a character taking risk shouldn't be enough to discredit the whole episode...It's just really petty-minded.
Also, people seems to forget what is a slow-burn.... Rhaenyra rage went here "I want Aemond Targaryen", and will surely resurges back.Causing an innocent toddler death is a reasonable reason, to step back and think rather than to simply hate-kill everyone. And you can literally see her stoically raising a sword. Just wait for the actual battles to start, to see everyone in rage-mode. Ali/Nyra didn't cause any direct harm to another, it is more than justified, why they wouldn't jump at each other's throat
Also EP4 & previews confirms it, it doesn't diminish any deaths
It brought closure to myself so idc.
Firstman ⚔️
I had less issues with this scene then the changes to blood & cheese
I think this scene sticks out so much because it's such a dip in logic compared to the rest of the show. Fortunately, it's right at the end of the episode so you can just chose to end the episode where you want and pretend it never happened. Which is what I'm gonna do.
I definitely see it as an outlier mostly
You'd think after so much of early GoT portrayed very "grey" characters, general audiences would be able to appreciate more complex charactiersation.
HBO may have, perhaps carelessly, made this worse with their "All Men Must Choose," marketing.
I understand the need to promote the show but having such a B/W tagline must have seemed overly simplistic to at least some of the staff.
At worst, the 'pick a side' language suggests a disregard for the source material by glossing over the pains grrm took to show the conflict in its broader context. He provides like 150 years of pre-story and the book continues for a not insignificant amount of time after the main "Dance" events have wound down. Throughout we are shown differing perspectives, outcomes and even characterisation, to the point the reader is quite literally told to 'choose their own adventure' as they say.
They should have honoured the ambiguous spirit of the book while using it as an opportunity to show more textured performances. HBO is supposed to do better than lowest common denominator
1) It made no sense that Alicent did absolutely nothing when seeing Rhaenyra (however the hell you spell it). She could’ve damn near ended the war but she decided to do nothing.
2) It’s kinda starting to come off as “Men are emotionally unstable and women make better rulers.” It’s not full woke but I’m concerned it’s heading in that direction.
That scene could have been cut and introduce dreamfyre
Bad writing
I love how they are showing us things that happened in Fire & Blood Aren’t True
it was written by people who were there, by first hand and second hand accounts and with the biases of people in the story. princess and the queen to fire and blood was written with bias towards the greens, but much of the information they gathered are based in real records. the accuracy of records of medieval history depends on if you were noble/royal and or clergy. fire and blood was mostly true to its telling of the dance (primarily because its based irl on the story of matilda) and follows through expanding princess and the queen and the rogue prince. if you read it well, you'll be easily sure to point out which is not true and which are. thats how you study historical texts. the way ryan condal and sara hess wrote this show is very much more fanfiction than it ever was loyal to the telling of accurate historical record.
@@sixeyesheavens7 Why does all y’all people say the actually same thing & be mostly wrong like how did y’all read the book & don’t kno the maester named that actually wrote the book 💀btw the maester that wrote fire & blood wasn’t alive when the dance happened so idk what you talking about his name was Gyldayn also you can’t believe anything that mushroom said the guy was a weirdo you look in mushroom testimony he have lots of weird stuff in it about rhaenyra 🤦🏼♂️like wtf and you can’t believe that maester that’s on team green think his name Orwyle or whatever he was favoring the greens so Orwyle & mushroom Pov doesn’t mean those things was actually true the whole book Fire & Blood is from they POV so yeah btw the book is the book & the series is the series grrm confirmed it’s 2 different universes so things that happened in book won’t happen the same way that’s my point & if you wanna check up on your facts or whatever just go look up grrm talkin about Fire & Blood aren’t from a reliable source okay
@@latj16x the maester you point out was munkun and munkun took much of his work from orwyle who was a green but he incorporated much of what he wrote with eustace too who is the man who crowned aegon cause he had a cock. also, mushroom is 75% wrong most of the time, 25% correct of the time. but the 25% is something you have to dissect. people forget that court jesters and fools also have connections in royal courts. he could easily get people to tell him things via ravens. the fact that you're being told not to listen to him when he's the only black voice in the narratives is kind of crazy when the rest are greens. grrm heavily is team black and one of the ways you can tell is where he also puts the blackwoods, one of his favorite houses. the fact that he made most of the greens war criminals especially aemond who burned down half the riverlands is also telling. like, grrm based this off real life history called the anarchy, where a woman's throne was stolen and men ruined the realm. its pretty sure who grrm is siding with ESPECIALLY because daemon targaryen is his favorite. to the point he made him a novella of his own 😭
@@sixeyesheavens7 lmao Grrm is team black I can’t say that’s a lie cause he did a video a while ago saying his favorite Targaryen was daemon so yeah that makes sense I just hate when ppl compare it tho like the show & the book in their own universe so I don’t get why lots of ppl compare it & what’s the name of the story this based on I wanna check it out
@@latj16x i would have forgiven the show if there was competence. i read princess and the queen in 2013 when it came out. i and other book fans have been here a long time and to see what we love be butchered by incompetent writing, just two seasons in because they wanna write a fanfiction is painful. hess and condal can learn a thing or two from interview with a vampire's adaptation. they made multiple changes in the story but it all made sense and they have addressed details to the smallest one. its so simple. if they want to adapt a book for television, be competent at it. dont piss off the main source of audience.
i didnt enjoy this scene because it negates so much. it negates rhaenyra's anger about luke's death, it forces the legitimacy of aegon i's dream going to people who don't deserve it. they negate the fact that alicent was rhaenyra's abuser. they negate the years of pain alicent put on rhaenyra. hell, they made rhaenyra and rhaenys lessen in their anger and willingness to go to war. they made rhaenyra act like a fool, trying to save a relationship that can and never should have been saved. she should be angry with alicent, she should want vengence, she should want relief. the fact that they think this makes good on what story they're trying to transport in television from book is quite painful to watch. i waited near a decade since princess and the queen to see an adaptation of the dance. and to think this scene was even here, its just baffling to me.
You probably have to get past your book reader viewpoint somehow, I’d guess around 90% of viewers liked that scene regardless how it came about… it’s tv ffs, they add drama where needed and I’ve watched a fair few reaction vids that suggest that it was enjoyable… should they cater to 10% or 90%?
Really thoughtful point. I never thought about it like that. Thanks!😀
Spoiler alert?
?
@@DCharles Did you reveal spoilers in this video?
Only if you watched this before watching episode 3
Call me crazy, but I think the House of Dragon show is absolute trash. Its 99% exposition from characters we dont care about. Watch the first 15 minutes of the 1st episode of GOT and then watch the first 15 minutes of HOD and see what grips you more. As a huge GOT fan..I honestly dont know why this show is popular at all
You are crazy😂
Not everyone likes the same things. It's fine for you to be wrong.
Well then you probably are crazy to even ask such an obvious question. GOT has developed one of the largest and most loyal fanbase throughout the years it aired. Obviously people are going to be interested in the Targaryens after seven seasons of dragons and tidbits of lore about their civil war... Believe it or not, some people actually have the patience to watch past the first 15 minutes, even if it didn't have white walkers, if they actually cared to learn more about the ASOIAF universe.
It's not trash, I would say GoT s5 or s6 quality.
I actually prefer house of the dragon S1 to GOT S1 lol
I enjoyed the scene. 🤷🏽♂️
Nothing wrong with that