Does Leighton Flowers Deny Original Sin? | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101 | Calvinism
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, talks about differences in views of Original Sin over church history.
Watch the full discussion w/ @ApologiaCenter here: • AC Podcast | EP 39 | P...
For more study on the topic, check out this article:
soteriology101...
To SUPPORT this broadcast, please click here: soteriology101...
Subscribe to the Soteriology 101 Newsletter here: www.soteriology101.com/newsletter
Is Calvinism all Leighton talks about? soteriology101...
DOWNLOAD OUR APP:
LINK FOR ANDROIDS: play.google.co....
LINK FOR APPLE: apps.apple.com....
Go to www.ridgemax.co for all you software development needs! Show them some love for their support of Soteriology101!!!
To ORDER Dr. Flowers Curriculum “Tiptoeing Through Tulip,” please click here: soteriology101...
To listen to the audio only, be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, or one of the other podcast players found here: soteriology101...
For more about Traditionalism (or Provisionism), please visit www.soteriology101.com
Dr. Flowers’ book, “The Potter’s Promise,” can be found here: www.amazon.com....
Dr. Flowers’ book, “God’s Provision for All” can be found here: www.amazon.com....
To engage with other believers cordially join our Facebook group: / 1806702. .
For updates and news, follow us at: www.facebook/Soteriology101
Or @soteriology101 on Twitter
Please SHARE on Facebook and Twitter and help spread the word!
To learn more about other ministries and teachings from Dr. Flowers, go here: soteriology101....
To become a Patreon supporter or make a one-time donation: soteriology101...
#Calvinism #OriginalSin #LeightonFlowers #Soteriology101 #shorts
It’s clear that what we inherited was death. Guilt should come from our own sins.
They have a different definition for death too. And they don't know the difference between first and second death.
How do you inherit death if you’re not guilty? Only one person has ever died that was not guilty.
Romans 5:13-14
[13] for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [14] Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
@@PizzaDisguise We inherited death of the body. As a consequence of his action. We don’t go to hell because of Adam. We only die the first death because of him. That’s the distinction I’m making. What I do causes the second death of which I am guilty of causing. As the person above is saying.
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8
@@PizzaDisguise Paul also says
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Romans 6:23
If sin is the result of death, then why do infants die in the womb if they haven't sinned?
"Because obviously original sin happened" I laughed for like 30 seconds at that.
But that is NOT the 👉original👈sin, just the first for mankind.
@@JamesBrown-fd1nvRight, Calvinists believe people are literally born guilty, that babies unbaptized are hellbound. Reformed Baptists don't agree with the traditional (as old as Augustine) ideas of "original sin".
Consequently, most Christians disagree with the traditional idea of original sin, most instead agree with the provisions and traditionalists who say that we inherited a genetic predisposition towards sin, but not guilt on its own. Ez 20:18.
It is incredibly simple. The sin of Adam doesn't transfer guilt to us, but it did bring sin into the world and cause the fall of God's perfect world. Because of Adam's trangession, creation fell, but we aren't judged by his sins, as the scripture says "The soul that sins will die." God doesn't judge people for the actions of others. Each person stands guilty before a Holy God simply because of their own transgressions. However we have inherited a sin nature that is bent towards lawlessness.
Regardless, the solution is the same: Jesus Christ.
"A sin nature bent toward lawlessness" but not "guilt." Choose your words better.
@@nikkowood7465 the tree of life was guarded, that nobody could access . What do you think that represents ? Adam broke covenant with God and by doing so he lost his closeness with Him . Separation from God was the worst of the curses Adam experienced for his sin. By being in Adam, all of humanity lost that relationship with God. That's the death for the sin that Adam experienced. The promise was that in the day he sinned, he would die.
original sin= the condition to sin, that we all inherit the moment we are conceived. Why do we make things complicated.
Exactly. Not sure why Leighton has to straw-man the term rather than just answer a simple question.
Adam and Eve were in perfection and willingly sinned. So where they already conditioned to sin? No. Few things happened here. We inherited death. Removal from the tree of life. Each person will sin because sin is in the world now that the serpent deceived Eve and Adam rebelled so everyone are either influenced, deceived or willfully rebel and sin can’t be avoided. God never cursed man but curse the ground which in returned caused man to have to work hard to survive. So the curse is we humans having to work hard for what Adam and eve had at their fingertips… Food, husband and wife, shelter, happiness, love all these things that God has given us to enjoy are now hard work.
@@TimWismerNo, the term "original sin", according to the reformers, meant "born guilt", that we are born, indeed conceived, "in sin", aka guilty. The reformers absolutely believed that, through sex, since we are conceived, we inherit sin upon conception despite a lack of actual sin being committed by the fetus.
This isn't obviously gnostic heresy, which hinges on a fundamental misunderstanding of a psalm "certainly I was conceived in sin, guilty from the womb" (they forget that psalms are hyperbolic and not literal, they're songs).
There's no Strawman here, just because you disagree with the reformers.
It's that but also the judgment of God upon mankind, though Paul seems to say that this develops over time (Romans 1).
Adam and Eve broke their covenant relationship with God . Without the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, they would not live face-to-face with Him ever again . In that sense, it was a curse . All who are said to be ' in Adam ' need the righteousness of Christ . All humans after Adam are on track to condemnation without God's work and righteousness imputed .
Regardless if you believe in original sin or not the evidence of sin is death, we all die .
Yes we do. Even redeemed people die. This means that Adam brought physical death into the world not spiritual death. Our own sin cuts us off from God who is the only source of eternal life.
A pragmatic answer.
As my Seminary professors would say, "there are no new heresies". The obvious corollary, old heresies persist. Why? Glad you asked. There will always be armchair theologians stirring up controvery. The Spirit of God will guide / direct us in our pursuit of the truth. The caveat, we need to STUDY. My suggestion; seek after Jesus and His illuminating Spirit, learn a proper hermeneutic, study logic, become familiar with the fudamentals of grammatical construction/ context, know your history and then dig in. Your diligence will be rewarded.
I've yet to see any heretic that doesn't claim guidance from the Holy Spirit.
So what's your argument then? "No, me!" perhaps?
Plenty of non-armchair theologians, being in posession of everything good you list there aplenty, will arrive at different conclusions, reading the same text. (Drop two words: "divorce" and "remarriage", and a bloodbath ensues.)
Maybe, I dare suggest, also because that "in part" is with us until we open our eyes on the other side of eternity, dear brother? 🙂
That doesn't mean we don't strive into everything you mentioned.
Last year after studying the Egyptian and Perpetual Passovers. Then going back to chapter three in Genesis I came to the conclusion that original sin is not passed on, but the curse of sin that is death was passed on. I asked my friend if this could be true. He pointed me to you. We have come to the same truth independent of each other. May God bless you, in your ministry.
It's more than death; it's what St. Paul calls "condemnation" in Romans 5. Keep learning. At least you're formulating the right questions.
@@brucejane7395 and if you keep learning, you'll find out that separation from God was the death that Adam experienced and passed on. All in Adam (and that's all human beings) are separated from God unless they are transformed by God to being in Christ . Only Christ's righteousness imputed can change that curse .
Original sin exists in place and time as well as in us. Humanity inherently desires to be its own god.
20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
@@RR-ue4im if two people, both of whom have a genetic disorder, have children what is the likelihood that they will pass on their genetic disorder?
@@Doc-Holliday1851Wait, so we're NOT passed on the guilt of Adam, but we ARE passed on the genetic predisposition towards sin? Yes, this is also Dr Flowers' position, as well as most of Christendom.
We do believe that the "Inheritance" is the a. Understanding of good and evil, aka accountability, b. The ability to choose to sin or not, c. The desire to sin
Everyone has all 3, assuming mental capability, thus everyone will sin at least once. Therefore, all WILL be guilty, but of their own sin, not of Adam's.
We all face the consequences of Adam's sin; death, work and toil, childbirth pains, the battle of the sexes, war etc. but we don't directly inherit the GUILT of Adam, we inherit the propensity towards sin, as everyone does, and therefore we all claim our own guilt.
@@SeanWinters I’m not saying that sin is genetic. That’s an example of how a child can inherit their parent’s issues.
Very good answer. You're getting St. Paul.
“God hath made the mind free”. -Thomas Jefferson
The discussion about the fall typically leaves out the fact that we are responsible for our own fallen state, not Adam.
I sin, and that sin brings bondage, and it is me surrendering the freedom God gave me to the flesh.
Not born corrupted, but in my nature (flesh), I become corrupted.
God chooses to deliver me from the bondage (death) and give me life.
My sin brings death, not Adam’s, God brings Life, because He chose Me.
🎯On April 11, 1823, Jefferson wrote John Adams, rebuffing Adams’ request that he become a Calvinist:
Exactly. We inherited the tendency to rebell
Thomas Jefferson freely corrupted his Bible, tearing parts of it out!
Is there a reference to where did Luther call
Zwingli a Pelagian?
Flowers has never wrongly tossed out a label -- just ask him .
I didn’t know the concept of sin. If a person doesn’t believe in religion, and the lies and crimes that it is committed over there in millennium, why should we believe in Santa?
Why don't these shorts get posted to Instagram?
How do you know which flavor of Christianity to believe?
None
When an animal is born from that particular animal kingdom it does the works in the likeness of that animal.
The human animal is full of sin, when we are born we have the nature of sin because that's the kingdom we were born into.
Hence why Jesus preached to be born anew, and to be part of the new creation.
Good answer.
I'm in agreement, but your assertion that God doesn't punish the children for their parents' sins is contradicted in Deuteronomy 5:9, "You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."
I always found this odd, because, God speaking to His people, says He punishes the children for the sins of the father, but then in Ezekiel 18:20, He says each person will only bare their own iniquity. But in order to be a Christian, you can't say there are contradictions in Scripture, and if you do, you're a goat, lukewarm water that God is spitting out and erasing your name from the Book of Life... So, easy to say I'm screwed here.
How can this be reconciled?
Iniquity does not equal unable to be saved. Think of it more as a warning that their sin bears a curse. Which so does ours today even if we are in Christ. Our sin has consequences, not losing our salvation, but it still has consequences.
And when we go to heaven, God's not going to blame us for our grandpa being a drunk, but it still probably messed up our parents, and they messed us up in turn.
Just a quick reply for now, but note that you had to change the words to make it say that... in other words you couldn't just quote the passage and have it say "I punish innocent children for what their parents do" because it simply doesn't say that.
So one question here is what does it mean to "visit iniquity" on subsequent generations.
It's always worth checking that you're actually dealing with what a passage says.
Though some modern translations will use words like "punish" here.
But I don't think that's necessarily a good translation.
Visiting iniquity does seem to be fairly true to the Hebrew.
Probably the most telling thing is if you just keep reading.
Context is so important...
Who is this done to?
"the third and fourth generation of those who hate me"
These would seem to me, to be successive generations who continue to hate God.
They will continue to be plagued by the sins of their fathers, and the consequences of that.
Even just physically, if you abuse drugs for example, your children will suffer... your sin affects them.
That doesn't necessarily mean God is punishing them for things.
Nor is that the case if you choose to follow your parents in their sins.
This is something that we see happening, and maybe that's part of this working out.
The sins of their fathers are being "visited upon them" and they are given over to the same faults if they also choose to reject God.
Remember that the context of this is
"but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."
We don't assume that if you love God, then a thousand generations of your kids will all be saved on the strength of your personal faith.
But they are blessed and benefit from your faith when they also walk in it.
And one last point of context, as you mentioned there is clear doctrinal teaching in scripture explicitly stating that punishing an innocent child for the sins of the parents is something God will not do.
So we need to understand this much more vague passage in light of that, and should expect to find harmony, even if at first glance they appear to be contradictory.
He’s visiting the iniquity in each generation - as in no one is getting away with it, Gods not being impartial. So if they’re all doing things things, Gods there holding them accountable. I feel that goes hand in hand with each bearing there own load.
That’s how i understand it. Not that in “visiting” he’s putting the guilt of others on the children’s heads but that He’s addressing it AND each with bear his own.
I hope that makes sense and is helpful!
David is a great example. His sin with Bathsheba, and women in general, caused havoc amount his children and their children.
There is a simple qualifier here that does not only apply to the parents, “of those who hate me.”
When there is ONE or TWO passages you can carefully use to create and idea that is contradicted by DOZENS of passages, do we ignore local context and ride that fragmented interpretation and use it to alter the DOZENS that contradict, or so we use the DOZENS as proof that the clues being ignore should not be ignored.
This tactic is the mother of all false doctrine.
There’s major issues with what your saying. The passage you mentioned is prophecy saying God would no longer Hold you guilty of your inherited sins implying first of all that God did hold people guilty for inherited sins. No what is God referring to, probably this passage
“who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.””
Exodus 34:7
So the passage is in Ezekiel is God referring to no longer punishing individuals for there grandparents and great grandparents sin. Second since it’s a prophetic utterance it is not clear of what epoch God would no longer punish the sins of individuals for there great great grand parents sin, so you basing your whole theology on a very obscure passage that may not apply for today. Lastly God not punishing people for there great great grandparents sins anymore is different us being born into sin because the fall of Adam. One is saying God will no longer punish someone great grandparents because there great great grandpa was a murder while the other is stating that we are born in sin as in we are already sinners at conception and at birth.
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”
Psalms 51:5
Paul also says adams sin makes us sinners not adams sin gives us there opportunity to become sinner on our own.
“For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”
Romans 5:19
JESUS says that we are born carnal or whatever born of flesh is flesh which is synonymous with carnality.
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
John 3:6
No that it’s clear that from a man’s youth He is sinful
“The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.”
Genesis 8:21
How can man have a sinful nature without being guilty of sin?
Jesus makes it clear that we have a sinful nature because we a guilty of sin rather then we have a sinful nature absent of sin.
“Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.”
John 8:34
Leighton you hate God and lead people astray with terrible theology. You made a theological point from an obscure prophetic utterance that may or may not apply to this epoch who knows, and that does not make your opposing view invalid whatsoever because your forcing your application of the verse incorrectly as well as blatantly misinterpreting entire chapters and many verses that oppose your theology because your a sinful heretic. I pray God can grant you repentance so you stop blatantly deceiving others and leading them astray.
I deny the catholic (calvinists) interpretation of original sin. 1st death, yes but 2nd death, no, that is the result of your own freewill
That's a good answer, but I've never heard it said by Catholic or Calvinist.
20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Ezekiel is prophetic language, not Christian doctrine per se. Original sin is the Adamic inheritance, mortality, weakness, iniquity etc. Guilt is based on the judgment of God and that alone. He justifies and he condemns, however, St. Paul says that through Adam "condemnation" came to mankind (Romans 5).
In any case, it's only a matter of time before those born in sin become sinners themselves.
The law shows everyone that they’re sinners regardless of who they are.
Romans 5:19 (LSB): 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous.
Good work, Berean.
What it means to inherit original sin is, you inherit the responsibility for your own actions because you inherited the knowledge of good and evil, right from wrong. Once Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they became creatures responsible for the choices of their own free will by ignoring the commands of God.
Are we born sinners or with an inclination to sin and we will? Isn’t sin breaking Gods law? So would the first sin be disobeying a parent or having a bad thought or envying or lying as a child?
Your first sin would be the thing you do that is wrong and you know it is wrong and you understand to the full extent the consequences of this wrong act, but you do it anyway....that is sin. The term is age of accountability...I believe God knows the moment for every person.
I don't think there's particularly any need to say that we are born different from Adam, except that we are born into a world of sin and temptation.
Notice that the first time Adam was tempted, he sinned.
And most of us aren't any better than him.
I think there's also something to the idea that we now have "the knowledge of good and evil" meaning that we don't even need external influence to imagine sin for ourselves... and maybe that could be called a sinful nature, I don't know.
But from what I understand, if left in a vacuum as such, Adam wouldn't have come up with the idea to sin, however we don't necessarily need any external temptation to sin.
That isn't to say we are born "sinful" though, just that we are very susceptible to it and all ultimately fall into it.
As the other commentator said, sin is when we transgress God's law.
We know something is morally wrong, and understand that, jet go ahead with the action.
We aren't born full of doing that... obviously.
But we are born into a world where we will all sooner of later make that decision.
Even thinking wrong is sin. Lusting after a woman in your heart is to commit adultery already. We are to love the Lord, our God with all our Heart, Mind, and Soul.
@@mkbr1992 yes, and if we see how serious sin is and how we cannot escape it, we can look to Jesus and understand He is the Way, the Truth and the Life...we are so totally lost without Him. If it wasnt for Jesus dealing with sin, we would all be seperated from God's glory in eternity.
Praise be to Jesus who became sin for us...who died for us while we were yet sinners. He is truly an amazing Person ❤️
We are born guilty sinners in our covenantal connection to Adam (Romans 5). We do not inherit guilt from our parents, we are personally guilty because Adam was our covenantal representative. We suffer the consequences of the Fall (Death), even in childbirth, because we are guilty in Adam (Romans 8). Because we are born guilty sinners, we will and incline to sin.
Wow that’s time I’m not getting back. People sitting around discussing made up stuff - basically fiction. It’s a great book study group topic, but when people apply it to life it takes on a whole destructive life.
I have read in the Old Testament, God visiting punishment on the 30th generation of wrongdoer.
Guilt can be thought of as an aspect of original sin. I look at it differently. I read in the Book of Enoch, (some don't recognize it, I guess accepting leadership from the sinful Pope who threw it out), that one thing God doesn't like is metallurgy. I think the knowledge of good and evil leads us into sin. I don't so much see it as the Catholic, "Original Sin," but more as a perpetual sin. The knowledge of good and evil continually leads us into sin. Look at all the harmful evil products made deliberately to hurt us. We didn't make them personally, but we are part of mankind, and we perpetually fall short.
I am lost on the notion that Adam and Eve's sin caused death for anyone in light of the fact that they had never eaten of the Tree of Life in the first place
Maybe you're right. But they could have!
@@duncescotus2342
But they did not...
Without eating of the tree of life - they evidently would have died - since, according to the narrative, Yah was bemoaning that they would live forever if they did it....
@@greglogan7706 Who is Yah? You going to lose me if you use such nonscriptural names. Do you know God better than everyone else?
We inherited this strange preference to make up gods.
This is what you get when people two steps up from cave men get a say.
Sin came in through one man so God could take sin away through one man
From everything I'm hearing, he does indeed, deny the classical understanding of original sin.
As well, he should
As any Christian does. Nothing in the Bible suggests damned babies, unlike Augustine, who believed that guilt was a sexuality transmitted disease.
He is doing just that. Pray for him.
The idea of original sin is misconstrued. We were in the garden with Adam and Eve in essence and we fell with them. That’s what it means to be in Adam. If you’re in Christ you’re a new creature. You’re not yourself anymore.
Excellent answer!
Original sin is the state of being a natural enemy of God in how you are opposed to him in your inclination and actions. Not like the guilt due to personal sin exactly but it has similar effects often.
*If* one dies in a state of original sin yes they are separated from God and the beatific vision. Big if though as God isn’t bound to the sacraments or baptism and he can save without sacraments, extra ordinarily so. However, original sin will always separate one from God until it is removed either ordinarily through baptism or some other way by God himself which may be the case for infants and unborn be they in heaven rather than the traditional understanding of a limbo of infants.
Not a Lex Luther fan boy here.😂
I think we inherit the NATURE of what Adam did. The flesh which is against God, a selfish nature that bends towards sin.
As Tim Mackie said, the Forbidden Fruit changed mankind, giving us a way out of God's assigned purpose. That way, we can redefine good and evil according to our own will, rejecting God's moral entirely.
That's why Jesus came in the FLESH, but being FULLY GOD, He suffered temptations and did not sin, so He could be truly innocent, the perfect lamb, to die without sin in our place.
A couple of verses for discussion:
'Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.' (John 9:41)
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." (John 15:22)
When we did not know the law (right from wrong) we were spiritually alive, but when we willfully sinned, sin kills us. So we do not have inherited guilt or sin, but we do have an inherited nature to sin. This is why babies and young children do not go to hell--they have no guilt and are spiritually alive--not for any assenine, convoluted reason the Catholics or reformers cooked up.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Romans 7:9-11 KJV
@@tannerfrancisco8759 So it would seem that sin is a matter of will and knowledge.
@HOTTEST PERSON IN THE WORLD How is an infant against God? How is an infant a hater of God a la Calvinism?
@@ddr5138 ya Adam and eve didn't know about evil until they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Given free will, even if Adam and Eve had not sinned, I'm absolutely sure that I would have.
Nevertheless, praise the Lord God Almighty for Jesus Christ, and what he has done.
Why do babies die?
The wages of sin is death.
We're talking about original sin in terms of judgment, I think.
How is it that everyone keeps completely skipping over the very obvious and easy truth and that is that we're supposed to follow what is written in Scripture!!! I have never once read the term pelagianism in the Bible therefore that's not something that should be coming out of the mouths of any believer because it's not any part of God's heart, that word is a man-made slander against someone who doesn't believe like them and so I would say both of those people are outside of God's will!
Jesus being fully man and God… would he have died if not taken to Heaven? Maybe it’s redundant because Gods plan was never for Jesus to get old on Earth, but if human death is still passed down I wonder.
It makes sense though. If original sin doctrine is true then if Jesus inherited Adam’s sin by simply being a man, how could he be blameless? Where would the Bible exempt him from this unless it’s a false doctrine?
He wasn't born from both a human father and mother and therefore lacked the Adamic inheritance to some extent, but this is not clearly stated in scripture. He is fully man, "born of woman, born under the law." He is "emptied." He is "tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin>"
Good question. You're thinking!
@Michael - While I appreciate your sincere questions, doesn't such a direction - regardless of the merit based on the implications of the text - sure seem like a lot of rigamarole...🤔
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the only way to salvation and forgiveness of sins. Believe in Him.
Like brother Flowers I am a Provisionist non Calvinist. Here I disagree with him on his definition of Original Sin. It is not that Adam and Eve sinned (we all believe that) properly defined-Original Sin (a Heresy) is that because Adam and Eve Sinned, a baby is BORN GUILTY. Due to Adam’s and Eve’s sin, the baby INHERITED THEIR SIN’s guilt and condemnation, even though the baby has committed no sin yet before the age of accountability!!! This is why Protestants and Catholics erroneously baptise enfants because if they were to die, they would go to purgatory or hell.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Romans 5:12-14, NASB)
I mean original sin is a doctrine that you can’t deny because it’s in the Bible. Clearly Paul is teaching that Adam’s sin had some type of major effect on the human race so to deny that is to deny scripture. Now the disagreement comes in exactly to what extent and how that sin affects each person. There has been much debate so I’m not gonna settle it with a UA-cam comment. I personally agree with you that babies may be born guilty but can not be held accountable for that sin because they do not have the mental capacity to be held accountable.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. (Psalms 51:5, NASB)
Guilty and accountable are two separate issues. Original sin teaches that all men are guilty for sin and therefore dead in their sin. Accountability implies the ability to reason otherwise how can someone be held accountable? So a baby may be guilty but not accountable. Therefore we would say that if a child dies that Christ would be merciful because God is by nature a savior and that child does not know what sin is.
Also you misunderstand why some Protestants baptize their children. It is not for salvation. Credo Baptist baptize due to the covenant of God which has been ratified in the new covenant with baptism. In the old covenant, circumcising was the method. Circumcision even in the old covenant was not salvific but meant to be a visible sign of God’s covenant with His people. The new covenant replaced the blood sign (which was a type of Christ) and replaced it with baptism (which is a type of Jesus’s death). The stipulation to preform it on children was never revised in scripture. I don’t agree with it because I’m a pedobaptist but credobaptist do not believe baptizing infants confers salvation. I’d study alternate interpretations of doctrines if I were you just for knowledge sake it will help you atleast understand where your disagreement is. God bless.
Augustine!
_"...[F]or instance: the notoriously misleading Latin rendering of Romans 5:12 that deceived Augustine into imagining Paul believed all human beings to have, in some mysterious manner, sinned “in” Adam, which obliged Augustine to think of original sin-bondage to death, mental and moral debility, estrangement from God-ever more insistently in terms of an inherited guilt (a concept as logically coherent as that of a square circle), and which prompted him to assert with such sinewy vigor the justly eternal torment of babes who died unbaptized."_
source: DB Hart, "Traditio Deformis" (2015)
We inherit the sinful nature, that is, at least the propensity to sin. 100%, sooner than later, each one of us sins.
Since this happens, I find the debate merely interesting for the sake of debating; where rubber meets the road, in real life, we are all sinners.
"...in that all sinned." Good answer!
@Sz - Why?
Why can't you just teach what you believe. Can't it stand without tearing down others? Calvinists are not false teachers. I'm beginning to wonder about your motives. It seems you would like a friendlier God, not a Holy One.
This guy doesn’t know what he believes
Leighton does not even directly produce these clips. They are taken from larger video.
You say that 'as if' there was a problem. Leighton's associates produce the 'short's with his direction and cooperation. It often causes people to search out the original ... which is the point.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT If you watch much of his stuff, this is a one day a week venture for him, and he does it because he got sucked into this false gnostic/stoic teaching (to schools of thought condemned in scripture) and he was lucky enough to find his way out after studying soteriology for years.
Hi Jeffry, I'm very familiar with Leighton and his many other jobs, his personal history in and out of TULP, and the purpose and focus of his Soteriology channel. I'm a big fan and supporter. Maybe I misunderstood your comment. Was it in response to someone else? I guess I missed the context. It seemed like a random criticism directed at him not being responsible for the clips, which is why I responded.
Inherited guilt always seemed a bit "off" to me. The more I studied the topic the more I am convinced that people clearly live in a fallen world and have a predisposition to sin since the fall, but we are only GUILTY of our own sin - not Adam's
Yes, exactly, but the chicken follows the egg as certainly as the egg follows the chicken.
This is really a matter of words. Guilt has two parts:
1. the culpability (lack of innocence) of the perpetrator
2. the finding of a judge
Jesus deals with both actually but primarily the second. This is justification. But he deals with the first by his ransom sacrifice, taking our place and we taking his!
If your theology does not make you reasonably hate God, and then believe that it is your sin that makes you feel that way, then you are not a Christian.
Could you word that differently? I'm having a hard time following closer to the second clause and what you're ascribing that to.
Nope, that is just rubbish. Ypu do not need to hate God to be a Christian. You do need to hate your sin and repent of it and follow Jesus. It is you who are not a Christian.
The bible reads, 'it is the goodness and kindness of God that leads to repentance' .
There could be some people who respond to goodness and kindness with distain, but I would suggest those people arent christians.
Lol what? Is this making fun of calvinists cause if so then its hilarious
@@ccrow3355 true...when reading that sarcastically, it surely is hilarious!
Claiming that it's Armenianism to believe what the Bible says in totality on the topic of salvation is a futile attempt at polarizing people. Those who do that need to get over themselves!
You can’t even spell it correctly
@@malcolmscrivener8750 So, being a spelling critic somehow elevates you, criticizing someone whose second language is English? That's all you have in your arsenal?
@@musicinspire1745 Get away from Flowers and ask the Lord for wisdom and His guidance when you study the Holy Bible .
Arminians like Flowers deny Almighty Gods sovereignty in election because they don’t believe His word and are false teachers
The original Sin in today's world is being born and your parents never tell you, the sheriff collects taxes, on everything from alcohol to tampons, from automobiles to food and never collected tax from the church or any other nonprofit LLC.
You grow up thinking you did the wrong things by getting drunk, buying condoms feeling sad for the poor, feeling sorry for the prostitute, giving money to the church to help the poor.
Never realizing it's the sheriff's fault.
That my friend is sin
There is no such thing as sin, holy, sacred, or divine. So obviously original sin isn't true.
An apple tree produces apples. Sinful man produces sinful offspring.
What's particularly amusing about Luther is that his beliefs on inherited guilt were based in part on the erroneous belief that every human being that ever existed was already present in miniature form in the bodies of Adam and Eve.
Just research Eastern Orthodox theology. It's really that simple.
The doctrine of original sin comes from St. Augustine reading a mistranslation in the Latin vulgate.
In my teens
I remember kneeling on the bathroom floor I had dedicated my entire life to Jesus my entire being and identity was wrapped up in "Salvation" I felt the weight of my
“original sin” and prayed the prayer more times than I can count.
In my 20s I suffered multiple nervous breakdowns/panic attacks due to the terrifying thought that God might send me to burn in hell forever, that I might not really be “saved” and get a big damned surprise 🔥
One day I suddenly wondered if a loving God would send anyone even one of His image bearing created souls to
everlasting eternal conscious torment? In divine foreknowledge that they would forever be lost.
Here I am at 29 finding out that in the Bible we have no clear agreed upon consensus as to what “divine judgment” actually entails. In fact the word “Hell” appears NOWHERE in the Hebrew Scriptures or the Greek New Testament.
And that is just the tip of the Titanic sized iceberg they are hiding from you.
To those deconstructing: Do not let anyone discourage you.
Doubt is not the enemy of faith. Individuals who post content like this must perform mental gymnastics and claim we were never “saved” to begin with because a toxic reformed theological framework forces them to.
Do your homework.
The guy posting this video isn't reformed, he rejects Calvinism and is actually a huge opponent to it. And all I can say is this, I understand your situation better than most. What you described about constantly wondering, fearing and praying was me. However, deconstruction isn't the solution. The Bible is actually very forthcoming about what the penalty for sin is, and I disagree about your conclusions. I think what you need now is not to deconstruct, I think it's the opposite: "having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude." (Colossians 2:7)
If you want to talk more, we can DM somehow. But I just want to encourage you not give up yet, be patient. God will answer your prayer. I know you've been waiting for what feels like forever, but He really is going to answer you. Just because an answer doesn't come immediately, it doesn't mean the issue is about a lack of Faith on our part, there are things we just don't see/understand:
Daniel 10:10-14 "Just then a hand touched me and lifted me, still trembling, to my hands and knees. 11 And the man said to me, “Daniel, you are very precious to God, so listen carefully to what I have to say to you. Stand up, for I have been sent to you.” When he said this to me, I stood up, still trembling. "Then he said, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day you began to pray for understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your request has been heard in heaven. I have come in answer to your prayer. 13 But for twenty-one days the spirit prince[c] of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels,[d] came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.[e] 14 Now I am here to explain what will happen to your people in the future, for this vision concerns a time yet to come.”
The Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Church got this one right tbh.
This is among the most egregious errors of Eastern Orthodoxy.
@@mkbr1992 Freind, the problem is that Calvin (and Calvinists) are indoctrinated with Gnostic thinking. I encourage you to read "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" by Dr Ken Wilson. A very scholarly look on the subject.
Id pay 50 bux to have seen the first "Arminius dear sir, you also just don't understand Calvinism.".
(I know Calvinism didn't exist back then folks Im Jk)
What exactly is original sin?
Essentially "original sin" is simply the 'original' or first human sin, and refers to when Adam and eve rebelled against God's command for them and ate the forbidden fruit.
Where the debate starts is what does that mean for us today.
Everyone (in this debate) agrees that it happened, and everyone agrees that it had an effect on the lives of people living today.
However some people, particularly Calvinists or "reformed" types believe that you and I are actually guilty of the sin of Adam, or in other words even if someone hadn't committed any sins themselves, they'd go to "hell" because of the sin of their great great great... grandfather.
This will often simply be passed off as believing in original sin, but is better described as original or inherited guilt.
It's not biblically sound, and is both very difficult to find any solid biblical support for, and extremely easy to find direct biblical teaching which contradicts the idea.
Read Ezekiel 18 if you want to know what God thinks of the idea that you punish an innocent child for the sins of their father.
Scripture seems clear that Adam introduced sin into the world, or to the human race, and that brought death, and that born into that environment, like Adam, we all choose at some point to give in to that temptation.
See Romans 5.
But nowhere do we read that people are eternally judged for the sin of Adam.
That's the part that Leighton would push back on.
@@samuelbarns118 Confusing the parameters of Romans 5 with Ezekiel 18 is the error you're making here.
There's no way around it, all of Creation (which includes us) is judged because of Adam's sin (Romans 8). In your view, we suffer the consequences of the Fall without actually being guilty of the Fall, which is in violation of Ezekiel 18.
In the Reformed view, you suffer the consequences of the Fall because you are personally guilty of the Fall, because you are covenantally under Adam (Romans 5). You do not inherit guilt from your parents, that is a straw man, though it is what Augustine believed.
@@mkbr1992 Not sure what you're pulling out of Romans 8 here... correct me if I'm wrong, but Romans 8 doesn't mention adam at all.
The problem with your next statement is that it assumes it's conclusion.
The point of Ezekiel 18 is that a child cannot be held guilty for the sin of the father, but you assume they can be punished if they can be held guilty... it makes no sense when held up to scripture.
Verse 20
"The one who sins is the one who will die. *The child will not share the guilt of the parent,* nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."
So to effectively say "it's fair to punish the child, because they share the guilt of the parent" is in direct conflict with explicit doctrinal scripture.
As for suffering consequences of sin, that is not the same as punishment.
As saved and redeemed children of God, we are not punished for sin, Jesus took that, but we still experience consequences of sin, both ours and others.
If someone is murdered, they experience the very direct consequences of that person's sin, if children grow up in an abusive household they experience the consequences of their parents sin... but hey, maybe you say that's because they are guilty of what the other person does!
Again you double down on your view that directly contradicts scripture, and use a vague allusion to Romans 5... which simply doesn't say that we are guilty of Adam's sin, nor that we covenantly sinned when he did... whatever that means.
It just isn't there, and is in direct opposition to clear scripture.
As for your attempt to accuse others of a strawman...
Am I wrong when I say your view is that you are guilty because of what your ancestors did?
And yet you say it's a straw man to say you inherit guilt!
@Samuel Barns Romans 8: "the Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly..." When did this happen if not the Fall?
The Reformed do not teach, as Augustine did, that you inherit guilt from your parents. There is no violation of Ezekiel 18. They teach that you, and everyone else, are personally guilty of Adam's sin because he is your Covenantal Representative, or Federal Head. We are not saying you inherit guilt, we are saying you are imputed guilt as you are imputed the sin.
That is Romans 5:19: "For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were appointed sinners"
Just as Jesus is righteous, and therefore, everyone in Him is righteous, as He is their Covenantal Representative. That is also Romans 5:19: "even so through the obedience of the One the many will be appointed righteous." You are imputed righteousness because you are imputed perfect obedience.
You are teaching that God punishes (imputes judgement) you for the Fall even though you are not guilty (innocent) of the Fall. By that logic, no infant should die in the womb.
@@samuelbarns118 It’s inherited death. God gave us to dying. Had they obeyed God, they wouldn’t have died. It’s natural to disobey the Lord. That’s what the Law is for. He gave us death but he then gave us Laws to live by which were righteous. If we remorselessly break those laws, we go to hell. Either way we die. So we are paying for Adam and Eve’s mistake. And of course Jesus Christ is the good news. That lifts that sentence of death off of us. Before Jesus came you would have been judged righteous by the revelation of God’s Law.
Adam and Eve lol yeah right 😅😅😅😂
Have you, Leighton, in your rejection of Calvinism and Arminianism, denied that we are born into sin? “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). If you deny Original Sin from which we all inherit this sinful nature, you thereby deny the Word and the Gospel found therein. I hope this is not true of you.
Finally a psalm 51 reference. Conceived in sin and brought forth in iniquity. About as original as it gets.
@@AmillennialMillenialEDIT: sorry, I misread your original statement. I clearly need more caffeine. 🤦🏻You are right.
@@joshuar1770 i was saying that the sin in psalm 51 is as original as it gets, that is, I think psalm 51 is teaching original sin, not that you are being original with your interpretation. I’m pretty sure we are in agreement.
@@AmillennialMillenial I know. I totally misread your comment. I am truly sorry. Yes, we do agree. Thanks for the patient and kind reply.
Psalm 51 in context does not teach a "sinful nature". You are using the NIV which renders this verse differently to almost all other English versions.
The context is David reflecting on what his own mother did in his conception.
Guilt is clearly inherited, otherwise, righteousness cannot be inherited through Jesus act of obedience. This is the argument of Romans five.
Sorry, God's word is clear that we are not held accountable for the sins of the father.
Christ's righteousness is not inherited by us, it is imputed or given to us. Therefore making your inherited guilt argument moot.
Hey friend, look carefully why all are guilty of sin-
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that👉🏼all have sinned:”👈🏼
Romans 5:12
The Biblical definition of sin is breaking God’s law (1 John 3:4)
So if original sin is true, than being born is a sin. But that is not biblical
@@MrCapolupo "When Paul says in verse 12 “because all sinned,” he is using what is called the aorist indicative in Greek. This means that it is an action that is completed in the past."
@@dougdozier8782 hey friend. My argument is not that Paul is not using past tense, my argument is that this verse does not say that we are guilty of Adam’s sin. The Bible consistently teaches that one is guilty of sin by breaking God’s law. Romans 5:12 is not stating that one is guilty of sin before they are born, nor by virtue of being born. It’s stating, consistent with the scripture, that actively transgressing God’s law is what causes condemnation. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4
Romans 7:9 ESV
"I was once ALIVE appart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I DIED."
Paul was spiritually alive before his knowledge of the Law of Moses, but when he understood the commandments, sin became alive and he died spiritually.
It's a fictional story, dude. You are too old for make-believe with imaginary characters.
Rom 5:12-21
If you do not believe in imputed sin from the first Adam, how do you believe in imputed righteousness from the second Adam?
@Simon - Why?
Adam and Eve were not taught the difference between good and evil because they were not allowed knowledge....so how are they guilty of sin???....btw the serpent didn't lie ..god did ..when he said "in the (day ) you eat thereof you shall (surely die)... except they went on to to live for 900 more years ??
Seems god wanted us to remain ignorant .. except we didn't .. because apparently we were not made perfect..hnmm
They did die. They day they are of the fruit, death came. The day they ate was the day that they became subject so death and decay. And they did die, spiritually, just like Paul described about himself the when he had sinned.
”But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.”
Romans 7:8-11
@@Migler1 but how was it sin ..if they didn't know right from wrong ??
And was God's plan to keep us in the garden(east of Eden ) after he just said in the previous chapter to multiply the (earth) ....not Eden alone ?
Read Romans 7
Yes, he denies original sin. He's just talking around the question. He's a heretic.
Calvinism is a gnostic heresy. Calvinists should be warned thrice and then put out of the church if unrepentant.
Original sin is the reason catholics come up with stuff like Mary being sinless and why calvinists come up with stuff like sin only passing through the father and not the mother. Because if original sin is true, then Jesus was guilty of sin.
Sin is a made up word, used to make you feel bad for being human. go away.
Leighton and 80% of christiandom reject your reformed philosophy. It is circular logic that violates the conscience. It is not the intended message that you spread, sure isn’t the Gospel and if we observe your behavior, you don’t truly believe it yourself. You have had to add 20 words and concepts that are extra biblical. The good news is that you are fairly Biblically solid except for Soteriology. The bad news is that it is all about the nature of God and his relationship to man. Kind of important.
. Sovereignty is about how God chooses to rule. The words and actions of Jesus, God Incarnate, is the core of the message. He came to make disciples and show them how to ( with the Helper) live and work Gods purposes here. He also came to save, redeem and bring us home. God loves His creation so much. We are like sheep. Some respond quickly, some more slowly and the Shepard goes the extra miles. Some decide they are not going to come. Many calvinists have a problem with man saying no, like God failed. He did not fail. Some refuse to come and the wolves and bears have their way. If God chooses to rule this way, who are you to oppose his decisions
You are loved, but you spread a message that degrades the
Glory of God, cripples you as a Christian ( am I chosen, am I chosen, do I need to do anything- it is all
Predestined and once saved always saved.) Of course, there are as many flavors of Calvinist as Baskin Robbins, some will object. I imagine that I will hear, no, I am only a three pointer. That just means you are a good
Book reader with common sense and a functional conscience. May not belong where you are.
So gullible… it’s unfortunate.
This nonsense is why I dont believe in religion at all
Original sin is an Augustinian doctrine (who was a Manichean gnostic for 9 years), then touted by the Roman Catholic Church. The very FIRST sin of pride, took place in HEAVEN. There was no sin nature there. Where is it? THAT was the Original sin.
The ingredients for sin to take place seem to be this:
a. Free Will
b. Temptation
c. Pride
The same ingredients were there when Lucifer rebelled, when Adam and Eve sinned, and now with us... the progeny of Adam and Eve.
Free will gives us the TRUE choice to choose between good and evil (that little detail you know that holds us MORALLY CULPABLE come the time of the judgement seat of Christ), temptation is EVER present, and pride is the root of ALL sin.
We are not evil dirtbags the second we are born from our mother's womb. ALL will go astray because the flesh is weak. We have a proclivity to sin, WHEN walking in the flesh (carnal man) as we've been separated from God.
Sin doesn't hold the same power when walking in the conviction and power of the Holy Spirit once saved. 2 completely different circumstances. Sin is born from YOUTHFUL REBELLION, it is a transgression of God's law which requires the knowledge of good and evil... of which babies don't have. Hence why we DON'T baptize babies... they must have a clear knowledge of the faith that they are accepting and the covenant they are entering.
1 Corinthians 10:12-13 NKJV - Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
Ezekiel 18:19-20 NKJV
"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. [20] The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The Bible teaches what's termed Ancestral sin, ala what the Eastern Orthodox teach. Nowhere is it taught that humankind lost the ability of libertarian free choice to do good or evil, to obey or to reject (that Adam & Eve had), as one of the punishments from God via the fall from the Garden of Eden. This would have been clearly spelled out if it were the case.
Absurd that people debate if a talking snake got fictional characters to eat an apple and then the whole rest of humanity will pay for that sin, even though the new testament says Jesus died for your sins. what? except Original Sin?
And the whole world being populated by 2 people (if you don't count Lilith)?
It never says it was an apple.
Designed defective, + by default sentenced to eternal torture, for being created as you were. However if you declare you believe certain things on bad evidence, you qualify for a reprieve, as long as you can match this with obedience to mandates you will pick, ignoring the ones you deem too excessive.
Straw man. God originally designed humans being 100 perfect no defects, until man violated His law that’s what sin is and with sin death, now God will sentence you to eternal punishment because of YOUR SINS or VIOLATION of His law you willingly and freely choose to do knowingly it’s wrong for example: God said “you shall not lie” how many lies have you told in your whole life? Ohh many? That makes you a liar.
God said “you shall not take my name in vain” how many times have you dishonored Gods name? Ohh many times that blasphemy
God said “everyone who looks a women with lustful intent has committed adultery in his heart? Oh you know you’re guilty of this one.
Buddy he’s a news flash you are like everyone else including me a liar,blasphemer, thief, adulterer and that’s only 3 of His 600 plus laws so if God judges you by His law you are guilty and are most than deserving Hell like everyone else. But God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ who is truly God and truly man, and kept the very law you have violated He lived in perfect obedience to the Father, and lived the perfect sinless life. Then He offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice/payment for your sins on the cross through the shedding of His own blood He paid the penalty of your sins, thereby securing full forgiveness for your sins. He died on the cross and Rose from the dead 3 days later. He’s commanding you this day to Repent turns from your sins and believe in Jesus alone, through faith we receive what we don’t deserve what we cannot earn salvation eternal life His righteousness and complete reconciliation with God as a GIFT!
It's actually very easy......I choose not to believe in ancient myths and legends that have literally zero proof. Period.
Yeah but, yeah but... I believe this stuff, so you should too!
In fact, if you don't then you will be tossed into a Lake of Fire. So there, do you believe now?
Well, you should, because in the book it says "fool in his heart believes there is no God".
Still don't believe??? Well, my book says that 500 people witnessed Jesus after he rose from the dead. Does that convince you?
Not yet! Well, all but one of Jesus's apostles died rather than deny him according to my book. Nobody would die for a lie would they?
Yeah but, yeah but... I believe this stuff, so you should too!
In fact, if you don't then you will be tossed into a Lake of Fire. So there, do you believe now?
Well, you should, because in the book it says "fool in his heart believes there is no God".
Still don't believe??? Well, my book says that 500 people witnessed Jesus after he rose from the dead. Does that convince you?
Not yet! Well, all but one of Jesus's apostles died rather than deny him according to my book. Nobody would die for a lie would they?
@@skippy675 lol. Literally millions have died for lies.....that proves nothing except people are gullible. And 500 eye witnesses....where are their written and verified accounts?
Dude, anyone could have written whatever they wanted 2000 years ago and you'd believe it. That's not being faithful, that's being gullible.
@@skippy675 also, I hope that was your attempt at sarcasm. My book says Batman protects Gotham City.....does that make either of those entities real? Nope.
@@markthe1860 Total sarcasm. I have had so many attempted Jesus enimas, Jesus labotomies, Jesus transfusions etc. that I have the tripe memorized. Gets less and less convincing with every iteration.
Our works are necessary for Salvation.
👁️👄👁️ 💀
Question: What is sin?
Answer: Breaking God’s law
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4
Question: Are babies guilty for Adam’s violation of the law upon birth?
Answer: No
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”
Ezekiel 18:20
“as it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord” Luke 2:23
A person is not condemned for sins done in ignorance-
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:”
Acts 17:30
A person is guilty of sin when they have knowledge of sin and choose to commit it-
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
James 4:17
We are not sinners by virtue of being born, we are sinners because we chose to violate God’s law. Original sin states that one is sinful by virtue of existing, therefore when I am faced with temptation, and by the grace of Jesus Christ I choose to do the right thing, I am still sinning in that moment. After all I was condemned by the law before my brain was capable of making a decision. There is no victory over sin if you are tethered to this idea of original sin. “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Corinthians 15:56-57
God bless
What are you doing, Leighton? Don't let them con you into saying that you are on the left. We are not on the left - we are on the CORRECT. It is the Calvinist idea that salvation is by election, not by faith, that should be LEFT out.
Original sin is a false teaching created by the apostate RCC.
We are born into sin...but we are not born sinners. We have the innate desire to sin, but until we knowingly act upon it, we are sinless. A 3 month old baby can't sin. It doesn't know right from wrong, good from evil. It is born with a sinful nature, but it cannot act upon it until it begins to reason.
If we cannot sin until we can reason, then is sin an act of reason in your view?
@@mkbr1992 We are born into sin...but we are not born sinners. We have the innate desire to sin, but until we knowingly act upon it, we are sinless
If you ever think a doctrine doesn't sound biblical just go look who came up with it. Its almost always augustine.
@@mkbr1992 Is there any such thing as an "age of accountability"?
On that subject, this coming from a Reformed website (Got questions) is ...a little weird:
"God’s extending grace to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His character. It is our position that God does apply Christ’s payment for sin to babies and those who are mentally handicapped, since they are incapable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior."
Wait a second. In Reformed theology the only way to believe at all is if God extends His grace to the elect. The non-elect adult is just as unable as an infant or the mentally handicapped.
@@ccrow3355 It existed in the Fathers before Augustine, going back to Paul. The Reformers do not agree with Augustine on how Original Sin works but they agree that all humans are guilty of Adam sinning, just as Romans 5 says.
If only there was a verse that settled this… oh wait! It’s clear because of Adams sin we were all born with a sinful nature and therefore dead in our sin. Notice the parallel- Adams sin causes our fallen nature and separation from God. Jesus obedience causes us to be made righteous. Leighton is just flat out wrong here. He can’t allow for us to to be spiritually dead. His whole worldview depends on having some goodness remain after the fall.. otherwise he can’t save himself.
Romans 5:19
[19] For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
Matthew 5:19-20.
Jesus says only devout Jews go to heaven.
We are given the righteousness of Christ the moment we truly believe in Christ. So yes and no, it's nothing that we have done but what Christ has done on our behalf
@@GabeM972 No. Jesus states that YOU must be more righteous, YOU must follow ALL the LAWS, not because he did it which then makes it fine not to.
@@educatednumpty71 If that's true then Christ is dead in vain which is heresy and blasphemy.
@@GabeM972 He didn't die in vain if you are a devout Jew and follow his words and obey all the 613 Laws in the Bible.
@@educatednumpty71 Christ died in vain if you believe anyone other than Him can save you and fulfill the law. To claim that you yourself can make your way to Heaven in the presence of God is the equivalent of saying you can overcome death apart from God which is complete and utter nonsense.
If you believe in the Adam & Eve story, then I have little hope for your critical thinking skills.
How do you think man kind came to be then? I'm curious
@@GabeM972 Should you and I decide that, or should we ask the scientific experts?
@@Iverath are you talking about their unobserved theory? There's an organic chemist that says he believes we were designed and stands unrefuted. PhD and all
@@GabeM972 Theres a Christian that dont think Jesus is god. Does this refute everything all the other Christians have said? Of course it doesnt.
When we want to learn whats correct in science, we dont just pick a random scientist and ask him what he thinks. Do you know what we do instead?
@@Iverath He's not a random scientist though, he's a well known figure in his respective field. A scientific expert if you will
Man was not born with original sin, but Man was born with a readiness to sin factor…..it’s called a wait, wait for it, FREE WILL, which sadly cause Man to play god WAY TOO MANY TIMES
Jesus said if you don't believe in me in the work I do and trust in me than you stand condemned already. We are born dead because our nature is sinful. Unless you are born again you are destined for the Lake of Fire
If you think people are born GUILTY by virtue of being human then I see two big problems right from the start.
1. Babies would then go to hell (they are guilty, after all)
2. Jesus would have to be sinful in this view or He wasn't human in the same way we are - both are heresies
Your 2nd point is a bit bogus.
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that we inherit the guilt of Adam, but our fallen nature is what makes us less human, since it was not what God wanted for us. Jesus is more human than us though, no matter if original sin is true or not.
If mankind is born guilty:
1. Then babies deserve hell, yes. Is God free to have mercy on them as He is free to save anyone else? Yes.
2. This is a problem if guilt is 'inherited'. It is not a problem if guilt is 'immediately imputed'. Christ is not in the same position as us in His relation to Adam. Is he physically descended from Adam (truly human)? Yes. Is he covenantally in Adam like we are? No. This is why Paul calls Christ 'the Last Adam'.
If mankind is born innocent:
1. Then God punishes (death) babies for the Fall even though they're innocent of the Fall.
2. There is nothing unique about Jesus' sinlessness as all mankind is born sinless. The only difference is He remained sinless.
@@somerandomchannel8723 People who support inherited guilt say that ALL people inherit the guilt of Adam because he was our representative OR we were all in his loins seminally.
Are all people guilty because Adam was sinned? If yes, then that means they would have to admit that Jesus is guilty.
If no, then inherited guilt does not pass on to all people as they claim.
@@mkbr1992 There is a BIG difference between being without sin (like babies, or Adam and Eve before the Fall) and being RIGHTEOUS in the sight of God.
@@mkbr1992 When is guilt immediately imputed? And why would it be imputed to some and not others? And where do you see this idea in Scripture?
We are born spiritually dead to God. The life God breathed into Adam, the Holy Spirit, was removed when Adam sinned. All his children, and us, are born in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). We are alive to the world, but dead to God. God wanted to restore His life to us but had to deal with the sin that caused Him to remove His life.Thus, He came to earth as Jesus and died on the cross to take our sins away. Now, raised from the dead God can restore His life to all who believe in Jesus Christ. And because of the cross no sin can cause God to remove His life. That is why we have eternal life. Thank you, Jesus.
Just live the life of Christ Jesus instead of arguing.
Colossians 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."
For those of us who want to take this seriously, Leighton's teaching is invaluable in helping us to "see to it" as scripture tells us.
It may not be applicable to your life, but that doesn't mean that it isn't important for other people.
Secular theology complicates even the most basic understanding of scripture. Calvinism is illogical. The OT and NT destroy this false teaching. God can be and is sovereign with our free will intact.
We did not inherit the sin of Adam, what we inherited is the sinful nature of Adam...
@Jan
Canonical basis?
Genetic basis?
@@greglogan7706, Yes heridetary. Sin is like a disease that is heridetaary.. If the father is diabetic, usually the children inherit it..
@@Echarterisc
Waiting for a genetic basis...
Much less a canonical basis?
@@greglogan7706 , Heridetary and Genetic are the same. From the genes of your father..
@@greglogan7706,
What do you mean by canonical? Do you mean biblical? If you mean biblical, my answer to you are biblical. The elect are according to Jesus are children of God, which means they inherited the character of their Father God. The reprobates are children of the devil, which means they inherited the character of their father, the devil...
You believe that Adam was a real person and not a story device? You think humans popped into being 6000 years ago? Grow up 😒
What do you propose then? I'm curious
-------------------------------- 5 Inconsistencies in the doctrine of original sin that the Reformed never answer:
1. Adam is in hell? Many will say no, THEN his sin NECESSARILY was paid for on the cross. And if it was paid for on the cross, how is it paid for again by other people? A sin that is paid for is not paid for? Calvinists themselves say that a saved person cannot be lost because something that was paid for on the cross cannot be paid for in hell. THEN...? and if they believe that Adam is in hell there also his sin has already been paid for by Him, therefore, how can a sin be paid for again? There are two ways of payment: On the cross or in hell.
2) When God has judged all sins in the end, WHEN in concrete the sin of Adam was paid, if it was paid again and again by descendants of one person?
3) Christ pays for sins partially? A sin can be partially paid for? I.e. Christ dies for Adam's sin but only pays for "a chosen few" and the others pay for Adam's sin in hell? A sin can be partially paid for on the cross? what?
4) If repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sins, and we are all guilty of Adam's sin, HOW DOES ONE REPENT OF A SIN THAT HE DID NOT COMMIT BECAUSE IT DID NOT EVEN EXIST AND HAD NO CONTROL?
5) Is the bible wrong when it says that everyone will give an account of himself to God (since we will also give an account of a sin we did not commit)?
+++++ Romans speaks that we suffer the spiritual and physical consequences of Adam's sin, but not that we are guilty before God of his sin.
Well I'm certainly not a Calvinist but as to your first point, when a person dies and spends an eternity apart from God, that is the payment for sin. And yes it's paid over and over because the wages of sin is death. But what the Atonement and Resurrection do is make possible eternal life with God.
The question as to whether Adam is in hell would apply also to David and Isaiah and Jeremiah and other believers in OT times. The OT doctrine mentions Sheol, the abode of the dead, which more often than not is portrayed as peaceful but gloomy inactivity. After the Resurrection a radical change takes place. This is what's hinted at in Psalm 49: "But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, for He will receive me".
@@ddr5138 I think you are mixing up several things and getting confused.
1) One will be eternally far from God because of one's own sin or the sin of others that one did not commit because it does not even exist? Paul said that "each one will give an account to God OF HIMSELF", Paul was wrong? (since we will give an account for a sin we did not commit).
2) How can a sin be "paid for over and over again"? If Christ paid for a sin on the cross and it was forgiven, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR IT TO BE PAID FOR AGAIN BY A PERSON IN HELL? Is it paid for or not? What is the payment of something for you? In your criteria the blood of Christ does not erase an "x" sin since it reappears in the future in spite of being paid for. Explain to me your logic.
'How can a sin be "paid for over and over again"? '
Because humans and everything else continue to die. What you're confusing is "paying for" as paying a fine or serving a prison sentence with *consequences*.
@@ddr5138 1) The one who is confusing here is you. That human beings continue to die is a consequence of Adam's sin and your own sin WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POINT. I spoke about the Eternal aspect, the eternal judgment, if one goes to eternal life or not. Why? Because EVEN IF CHRIST HAS PAID FOR ADAM'S SIN OR YOURS, THE CONSEQUENCES OTHER THAN ETERNAL JUDGMENT ARE NOT EXTINGUISHED, and I give you a simple example: If your child is born with AIDS because you fornicated, even though you have repented and Christ has paid for your sin, IT DOES NOT IMPLY that your child will not suffer the physical consequence of your sin, BUT THAT IS NOT PAYING IN HELL (Which is the meaning of my comment).
-> The payment of sin on the cross, does not imply the annulment of consequences in the physical or spiritual plane OTHER THAN the plane of eternal judgment. Is it understood or do I explain it in another way?
Doctor Leighton Flowers should tell us what he believes and stop quoting people.
I want to know what he believes
I recommend watching his full length videos, if indeed you're actually interested in learning about these topics.
He is obviously very limited in a 60 second clip.
@@samuelbarns118 thanks. Can I get the link to his view on original sin, in which he either defends it or denies it Using the scriptural .
@@nyamyaphilemon4929 I can't post links here, but it is worth searching "born guilty" or similar keywords on his channel if you're keen to learn more about the topic.
However I'd always recommend that you use people for guidance and information, but get your own doctrine from scripture.
So I wouldn't necessarily be looking for a neat packaged view on this, but more for help in seeing some of the potential pitfalls as you study scripture and pray about it.
He believes the consequences of the original sin are listed in Genesis 3.
We are born with a sinful flesh but not born sinners. People also need to revise also the nature of Christ. Did Christ have a sinless human flesh or sinful flesh? . The answer is the latter. 👇🏾
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”
Romans 8:3 KJV
Jesus was fully surrendered to the father and had victory over sin in a sinful flesh. The bible says he took on the seed of Abraham
“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
Hebrews 2:16 KJV
So my point is , if we inherit guilt at birth then Christ would have been a sinner because he was born with our nature.
The original sin by Adam and Eve caused a sinful nature in humanity. Not that we are guilty of their sin, but we inherit the nature to sin. And because we don't have the Holy Spirit active in our life unless we get saved, we cannot resist the power of sin and thus all men are in need of Jesus's atonement.. and all are sinners until they are saved.
@Wild
Basis in canon?
Basis in genetics?
Scripture tells us that the son isn't guilty or punishable for the sins of their father , but calvinists ignore this biblical trutb just like they do so many other passages
I don't think we inherited the guilt but we inherited the sin nature. We are inherently imperfect and absolutely unable to meet God's standards of righteousness. And of course we also inherited the death penalty and dragged the rest of creation down with us.
@HOTTEST PERSON IN THE WORLD Does an infant dying go to heaven or hell?
@@ddr5138 I believe that as well .
@@ddr5138 much like Adam then?
He sinned as soon as he encountered temptation...
@@samuelbarns118 Adam didn't have a sin nature though. So calvinists believe God forced him to sin
Provisionism is Western Orthodoxy
Why does youtube keep showing me fully grown adults firmly believing in fairytales... It's sad to see the conviction in those delusional people.
Thank God it’s a true fairytale
Original sin, as a by-product of the tempting of Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden, is NOT a very original idea! It is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, that goes back thousands of years! Not only that, but what a silly, fantastical story! How is it you believe such a silly, absolutely stupid idea, that this story, ( an un-original fictional story,) is actually a fact!