Open question for atheists in North America: Would US be better off if 10% of American Christians abandoned religion entirely, or if 100% of them converted to a religion like that practiced at Centre Place?
[From Ceará, interiour of Brazil] Man, John, you are good. One more lecture down. Noted and commented in my studies. I'm at the 6th of the ones I've watched atentionfully. Great detailed work.
Really enjoying these lectures (watching from Perth, Western Australia). John Hamer is an absolute fountain of knowledge, providing comprehensive and fascinating context in each lecture which helps frame the main topic. I'm not sure if John monitors these comments, but in case he does, and is in a position to answer, one question I would have is: was the James-led Jerusalem church/Jacobist church also the one that was known at various times as "The Way"? Also, I presume this group fell away after Paul's approach ultimately 'won out', but is there a modern day equivalent 'Jerusalem' church, and if so, how far back could it trace its origins as far as a connection between the original group of James? (Probably too protracted an answer to provide in UA-cam comments?! Ha ha!). Most importantly, hope all is well :) Thanks. Matt
Nice Scratch Solo ~7:00 . There’s a famous group of DJ’s called “Invisibl Skratch Piklz” . I don’t know what that means but it sounds like y’all had an invisible scratch pickle attack…. Also: fascinating lecture 👍🏿
And your diagrams are great, easy to follow, as well as your other illustrations. Very Good job on the early Christian beliefs and significant players. Overall just a great presentation in a very easy to follow flow of information. Thank you.
That was a great presentation! Thank you so much for sharing. This is one to listen to over and over again, especially in light of what we're living through today with sooooo many different points of view, held with such passionate conviction. Once again, it reminds us of the importance of listening within to discover the truth of our own Divine within.
@@arturofuente4832 the Deity is within......our soul is Devine. It is interesting how Kabbalah has the Tree Of Life (Etz Ha Chayim) as the symbol of both the Cosmos (the Body Of God) AND as a symbol of the HUMAN BODY. Macrocosm and Microcosm. This is is Genesis (allegorical) as "..man was made in the image of God". We are the Deity ! Every tradition has this wisdom across the world ,except sadly in the case of 99.9% of Christianity which tends to suffocate the real SOUL or Divine Within......they seem to be in fear of the Soul....they run from it and try to stomp it out in their own children as well as any other culture which may celebrate this "rising within"
@@corneliuscapitalinus845 "Narcissistic self worship". It is narcissistic if one operates from the human ego-intellect and thinks that's all there is so he/she knows best. Power games are often the result. I'm speaking of going BEYOND the human ego-intellect. Letting go of what our ego thinks it knows to discover Divine Guidance from deep within. That Divine Guidance most often brings forth elements of compassion and definitely Unconditional Love manifest in some form. We're all capable of hearing that guidance, even if many don't choose it, or unaware of it.
Further, despite the decision to purge Second Temple Judaic texts from the Judaic canon, elements of essenism and ancient Jewish Christianity (merkabah, hekhalot, Kabbalah) have remained in the form of Jewish mysticism to this day, and that it is practiced by some Christians.
Definitely agree! My only gripe is that if they made these lectures into a podcast format they should really limit audience interaction to the end as it creates a disruption in the flow of information. I also get the vibe in some lectures that the audience always wants to add more information to one-up John & it's really annoying. I wish people would just listen to the lecture and hold their questions until the end!
At 1 hour in, the works side of the faith vs works debate is outrageously misrepresented as mere empty observance of rituals and customs. But the Epistle of James makes it crystal-clear that's NOT what "works" means to James and his gang.. It says very emphatically that if someone shows up at your church who is cold and hungry, and you pray for him but offer him no food & no cloak, your religion is empty. This also comes in the context of farm workers getting cheated out of their wages by rich men who "have fattened their [own] hearts for a day of slaughter"! To say that James & Co are just getting persnickety over ritual observances is a complete distortion of the essence of the Paul-vs-James debate (although it's probably consistent with how Paul wants us to see it).
I wrote the above before I'd listened beyond that point, and after hearing the rest, I guess Prof Hamer might agree there's more to it than just observing Jewish law, and I might agree that the law was a bigger part of it than I thought. But I still believe the dangerous sincerity of James and his congregation involved more fidelity to the rabble-rousing, revolutionary implications of Christ's teachings, whereas Paul was largely concerned with toning down the troublesome parts of the message and substituting his own neoplatonism or whatever it was. (Martin Luther, who sold out the rebellious peasants the reformation had inspired, wanted James erased. Luther's antisemitism as well as his sucking up to nobles and megaburghers was no doubt a factor.)
@@tombutler7296 I could try, but really my intent was to be informative seeing as he has already concluded that the subject he is commenting on has been thoroughly covered in the video. Replying to your own comment to correct yourself is redundant. Might as well just delete, this is why I explained because I assumed anyone that knew how to delete this comment would have done so.
Profoundly wonderful & reveling light on the Christ & his time. In Hindu religions similar to baptism in holy river of Ganges is routinely performed at the nexus of rivers at Kasi or Baneras... I get profound spiritual understanding on Christ's teaching from these talks. So much philosophical spiritual similarities.
You may enjoy the book, Autobiography of a Yogi, in which, Jesus appears to Babaji in India, and asks him to establish a line of meditation teachers to go to the West and reintroduce to Christians how to love God with their hearts as well as minds, through meditation. A variety of communities have arisen under the teachings of Yogananda.
Any Muslim brothers and sisters:check out Let's Talk Religion on UA-cam. The young man who makes it is an excellent scholar,I believe from Sweden. His Arabic is impeccable.
Very educational while also being engaging..total enjoyed while learning so much ❤.. The only negative was the lack of audio for the questions being asked during the lecture that is a little distracting
There was also a large dispersion of Jewish Christians south along the Red Sea, some who ended up in Axum/Ethiopia/Eritrea, and their descendants still practice a faith that has many Jewish Christian features (and texts). Coptic/Alexandrian Christianity also preserved and respected many of the Jewish Christian texts and values.
@donkeysaurusrex7881 There is Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. Even though both words mean the same thing they use different words because they believe different things.
Marcion didn’t start outside the Church. He began in the church and was the son of a bishop. Same holds for Valentinius, the most important gnostic. The ebionites start isn’t documented so we aren’t sure but their end wasn’t by the Roman government or the Orthodox but instead they were absorbed into Islam.
I do have a question though for those in the know, the info I have read seems to indicate that Calvin was not a member of the clergy but instead a secular lawyer. But then some sources mention he had a chaplaincy. Wouldn’t this seem to indicate he was a priest or is my presumed understanding of what a chaplaincy is wrong? It does mention he became a chaplain at 12 so was this position at the time a minor order and not ordained clergy?
@@ChristopherWentling His father intended Calvin and his brothers to become priests, Calvin himself was at 12 ( twelve) employed as a clerk by the bisshop and received the tonsure, probably as a preparation to become a priest, what never happenen. Instead he took a carreer as a lawyer. Which profession exlains wy his writing are so tedious.
@@kamion53 haha, I have thought about the fact that his theology is the most legalistic of all the reformers. No great shock coming from a lawyer. By legalistic I mean legal like. Not guilty does not mean innocent but instead it is a legal definition that means you are declared not legally sanctionable for the crime you have been charged with.
It's almost like two lawyers named Paul and James, had caused enough trouble for the high courts. So next, the Romans just said to heck with this anymore, and exterminated them both. /!
Wonderful presentation, love this information on the gnostics and alternative branches of Christianity. Audio guy needs to be more more aware of his surroundings - walks right in front of camera?
very interesting lecture(s). can you tell what is the reason that Paul (who was a Jew) had to claim that Jesus was a God? why he needed such a "strong" claim? was it because he needed a God to cancel the old Laws of God (Shabbat, Non-Kosher, Circumcision etc)??? because a "simple" prophet has no authority to cancel God's laws??
@@MendTheWorld Anybody has that authority. There is no valid ip claim or copyright on god. You want to invent something about it, just go ahead. Nobody can sue you.
I believe they (the group mentioned in my previous comment above) were the 'losers' of the propaganda battle who were completely erased from history which represent 'True Christianity' precisely because they were the most human and not focused on a sophistic war of propaganda. The 'victors' basically focusing on the art of war and all its forms 'won'. The real followers of Isos have been erased from history.. but I can still see them and they can be reconstructed fully.
The literature of so called early fathers, circa 100 AD os available on the internet. Check it out and see if the continuity of early church and the church of the third and fourth century exists. Gnosticism was kicked out of the church in the moment it appeared. The time travel leeds to the great schism 1054 AD, and then Orthodx and Catholic Church.
Interesting lecture that goes into some nice details. However, the biggest flaw in the lecture is the unthinking use of the concept of "heresy" without any context. What is heresy? Where did the concept come from? It certainly isn't in the bible. In the bible Jesus is quoted speaking out AGAINST heresy, eg Luke 9:50; Mark 9:40. Only one sect of Christians used the word, in what century did they invent it? Heresy seems to be a very late invention of the Orthodox church to be used as a political tool. Valentinus was almost elected Pope, he was part of the mainstream church, but lectures like this make it seem like he was some sort of outsider. When we use words like "heretical" we are giving weight to one side of the issue, which is not the best way to do history. I'd like to see a lecture on these various christian groups that doesn't use the word "heresy" (except to say the Orthodox church classified those who disagreed with it as "heretics", a non-scriptural term that Jesus spoke out against). On another not, Mr. Hamer seems to portray the "secret mystery" aspect of Gnosticism as suspect. In fact, that was the norm for religions of the period. All the Greek Mysteries religions had people passing around secret knowledge in closed meetings. Even within Jewish culture, (as we know from Josephus), the Essenes had initiation rituals and secrets that needed to be learned. Gnosticism, seems a natural extension of that. If John the Baptists was an Essene, ( or at least, from the Essenic tradition as seems likely) then it would mean these essenic "secret teachings" would have been a part of the early Jesus movement. Jesus, after all, was baptized into Johns movement. Jesus also speaks in parables, which is a common way of passing on secret knowledge. Several times in the Gospels Jesus asks people to keep secrets and to keep certain knowledge or events secret. The Gospel of Mark itself seems to have the ending chopped off, perhaps, if one accepts Clements letter on secret mark, this was done because it was reserved for initiates. I think Mr. Hamer did not do justice to the importance and the validity of secret teachings within 1st century religion and displays a bias towards "open, everyone gets too to hear everything" religion which is a modern thing, and entirely out of place is the 1st century.
I am gnostic by no means, but the quote “If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you.” gave me chills
@A Publick Domain thanx for the thoughtful replies. But I do have to wonder if someone like Josephus would have used any Christ word at all, as it implies a belief of Jesus being anointed. Jesus related words, sure, but then there is always a "which Jesus" question.
@A Publick Domain but it is by itself. No one notices it until Eusebius, the guy who probably forged it, and its location is in the middle of something that has nothing to do with it. And plus the fact that uses language that Josephus wouldn't use. All add up to a good case that its a complete forgery. If you go down the road that it's only a partial forgery...well, you've already admitted Christians are willing to lie to make their "history". The only question is how much and how far they'll take it. It's a controversial passage. To claim you know 100% that it is authentic stretches credibility. At the very most (least) I'll admit it is controversial. Don't get me wrong, I like the Center place videos. I approach these things from a much more critical and skeptical side. But I like to get more than one view point to get some balance so I can make up my mind. The fundamentalist view just isn't epistemologically viable at all. The only other view point worth considering is the liberal Christian view point, as presented here, but it has its bias as well. I give him his props for presenting as much as he can with a very non-judgmental delivery, but at times that pushes my credulousness. For instance, he really soft pitches Mormonism. I don't know if that is good or bad. If you know about the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the book of Abraham, or the counterfeiting, or the sex trafficking, or the hit squads, or the arson, etc, etc, you have to wonder how there are any Mormons at all. Sometimes a little critical examination is called for.
No, the testamonium flavium uses the word Christian. And even calling him the Christ is a bit out of line for Josephus. There is a good summation of the arguments against the authenticity of this passage on the Wikipedia page and you'll have to do better than that to convince me that Eusebius didn't write the entire passage. Many arguments from textual criticism.
@36 Jesus brothers and siblings. In my dad's family cousins called each other brother " brother Joseph, brother George, sister Theodora" never Joseph, George, or Theodora. It was strange to me as I saw them in the summer in the mountain during the family gatherings. And it is not a family of monks or priests. Only the ancient generation did that. I still have only 2 or 3 living uncles that do that. This habit is dying with the new generation. Strangely my mom's family never did that.
There is an arabic translation of the Josephus text that appears to have avoided the christian interpolation (discovered by Shlomo Pines) "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
marcionites = original greek/pauline christianity, with a celestial "lower divinity/angel" jesus. proto-luke ("marcionite canon") is speaking to this group ebionites = original aramaic jewish christianity, with a human "adoptionalist" messiah jesus proto-matthew ("gospel of the hebrews") is speaking to this group gnostic = original mystery teachings, of the various non-literal christianities, not an offshoot bishops = a sect which only utilizes the literal teachings, the bishops are opposed to the christianities with mystery teachings, and label them "gnostikoi" (meaning "intellectuals" in a derogatory way, rather than "gnostics" as a title) proto-orthodox = roman imperial infiltration of the bishop sect, they tie the jewish and greek christologies together with the bishopian literalist interpretation, as the trinity doctrine
Thank you Centre Place and many thanks to you John Hamer too! 👍😊 The *Alawites* (predominate as a secretive, sort-of Shia/Shi'ite sect[1] mostly in modern Syria) and the *Druze* (live in Israel, Lebanon, Syria) seem to have incorporated several of the ideas of those early Christian sects, some aspects of Islam as well as some elements of Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism. Iraq has several ethnoreligious sects some are Christian then there are the Mandaeans, the Yazidi (originated as a Kurdish, pre-Zoroastrian, religion), the Shabaks (Ali-Illahism) the Yarsanis (aka: Yarsanism, Ahl-e Haqq or Kaka'i) and the followers of the Baháʼí Faith Some who have studied the early beginnings of Islam have mentioned the Jews/Jewish Christians in the Hejaz of the modern country of KSA. At least one of them have stated that some of the early Muslims were *Sadducees* (A very wealthy group of Jewish merchants prominent in 1st century Judaism) The *Pharisees* were the people who developed the synagogue movement in the post First Jewish-Roman war (66 CE -- 74 CE) era I have often wondered if the *Mandaeans* (aka: Nasoraeans) are an offshoot of the Jewish *Essenes* (Dead Sea scrolls) or the early Ebionites. Mandaeans claim to have existed as a monotheistic religion before both Christianity and Islam. Under Muslim rule, they declared themselves to be Sabians to avoid persecution I wonder if some of the Ebionites were the Jews who converted to Islam. The early Muslims were merchants as were the very rich Sadducee families of Jewish v. Roman War era. Medina (KSA) used to be known as Yathrib. Both Yathrib/Medina and Khaybar were places where Jews lived in what is now modern KSA (Hejaz) ______________________ 1.) Some Shia/Shi'ites will claim that the Alawites are a wayward cult/sect. Since 2005, the Iranian mullahs have been active in Syria attempting to inspire the Alawites to be more "pure" in their Shi'ite practice of Islam. (Some Alawites resent the patronizing attitude of Iranian clergy) Bashar Assad (president of Syria) essentially signed away Syrian independence in 2005 to obtain "protection" in a "defense" agreement with Iran. Iran needs access from Iran/Iraq through Syria to control it's special forces, the IRGC and its political/terrorist group, Hezbollah in Lebanon. The geopolitical aim of Iran is the same as the ancient Persian empires: Control the territory from the eastern shore of the Mediterranean (including mainland Greece, if possible) eastward, to modern Afghanistan and the coast of Baluchistan province Pakistan (Baluch are Shi'ite Muslims) I
you mention the second century.... what about the first century... just after Jesus died?? the first 30-50 years??? who were the believers at that time?
It addition, the Greek Orthodox faith has been friendly toward / tolerant of various elements of Jewish Christianity, and that mysticism associated with ancient Jewish Christianity has been evident among certain religious orders, such as the Carmelites and Mt. Carmel Christians.
That guy nearly knows early church history smh It was first in Jerusalem as there was Syrian Christians and the earliest churches in Armenia till Yeman
We are supposed to believe that Jesus appeared to Paul and told him a whole lot of stuff he forgot to tell his followers whilst he walked around with them for years. Paul invented Jesus as the later "Church" sees him. James basically got rid of Paul after an argument with more or less "do what you like, leave us alone" .
Is the gnostic philosophy closer to what ideas the freemasons play around with? If not the freemasons then how about the Rosicrucian or sufi tradition?
Who is this person who keeps hijacking this mans lecture. By the end you can tell he's like getting a little fed up with it. She goes from asking questions to just outright making comments.
I have been self-studying this subject for years and this has been a comprehensive overview with very clear graphics and textual examples that I have seen on youtube. Maybe a good analogy to early Christianity would be the figure of Karl Marx whose revolutionary idea lead to a plethora of movements claiming to be his true message. Socialism,Communism,Marxism,Trotskism,Leninism,Stalinism,Maoism et al.
The difference is that Marx left us an extensive body of work defining his ideas, as did all of the followers you've mentioned. We can compare what his followers said with what he said. With Christianity, neither Christ nor his immediate circle left us anything that survived.
@@stevenv6463 Isl4m is mainly there to justify Childbrides, multiple wives and sexslaves. The Jesus in Isl4m is made subserviant to carnal pleasures, so that is not Jesus
your whole premise is that Peter was first Bishop in Rome. there is zero evidence Peter was ever in Rome, so how could he have been Rome’s first bishop? should be evidence of it.
So, religion(s), _including Cristianity_ evolved in the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd centuries just as it does today…. by a process of social Darwinian selection. New varieties and changes are implemented or simply appear, and the ones that gain traction, and have the most appeal, are the ones that thrive. Other variants either decline or disappear entirely. Every innovation of Christianity over Judaism and Paganism can be obviously and easily understood in this context. The new changes would have had obvious appeal to potential followers. The doing away with the laws of kosher (Hurray shrimp wrapped in 🥓), the stringent requirements for joining the faith, the promise of “pie in the sky”, etc. ALL these innovations explain the ascendancy of Christianity. Does any of this have anything to do with God? Ockham’s Razor certainly advises against it. The existence or role of God, or _a god_ is simply not necessary to explain the historical facts of the matter. We can account for Christianity in completely secular context.
@Bhi fee I think he meant scientific not secular. All these early varieties of christianities were mutating and evolving to find the best version of the faith.
Ways to approach an answer for this comes from continued questioning: Would the people of this time would consider themselves Christians or Jewish or are these modern re-writing of history to create a legacy to the past that never existed? Did Christianity really exist before it’s construction as a state religion of the Roman Empire? The four of these groups seem like a modern day amalgamation.
Jewish Christianity evolved in various ways (e.g., Nestorians/Ancient Church of the East), Miaphysite, non-Chalcedonian, and Arian Christianity, and today's Oriental Orthodox churches, including the Armenian Apostolic Church. Some Syriac Christians (e.g. Maronites) continued to practice their faith in and around ancient Judea/Galilee.
I've enjoyed listening to the teachings here, but that emblem is very similar to the mambla logo and the one for women and little girls. So much so that I don't think it's an accident. Are you inclusive of those people too?
His statement that there was no structure before Constantine is wrong. By 225 there was a clear structure with Rome having some form of primacy. How could there have been a council in 325 if there was not already a highly developed authority structure. The Pope communicated with Constantine and the council.
Romans 10:9 KJV “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” John 3:16 King James Version 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved. John 3:16 (share the good news of the gospel around the world!) Have a wonderful day/night, may the LORD bless you all, and farewell!,.,,,,,, Galatians 3:26 KJV For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Remember the Game Telegraph where you would whisper something to someone and they would repeat it too the next person and so on and so on then at the end the message was completely different? Remember that the next time you read the Bible.
Another masterpiece from the speaker. I am so grateful for the hard work and dedication that goes into these lectures.
I am an atheist who just can't get enough of these lectures. Fascinating stuff!
Same with the.
Same.
I'm an atheist, too, Constance and I enjoy these lectures tremendously.
Open question for atheists in North America:
Would US be better off if 10% of American Christians abandoned religion entirely, or if 100% of them converted to a religion like that practiced at Centre Place?
I'm a follower of the father and I enjoy it ❤❤
I am so glad I found this channel.
An EXCELLENT history of early Christianity.. Very good lecture. Thank you.
You always have amazing lectures, I learn so much. Thanks
Videos on this channel are vey very intresting but please keep sound high, on most of the videos of this channel volume is really low.
Amen!
Absolutely 💯
Agree. 100%
It may be comparatively low. It is not really low. Their sound system is fine.
It needs to be higher for all devices as others can turn volume down. Webcast 101
Thanks!
[From Ceará, interiour of Brazil] Man, John, you are good. One more lecture down. Noted and commented in my studies. I'm at the 6th of the ones I've watched atentionfully. Great detailed work.
i really enjoyed this lecture. I can't wait to watch more from this channel.
Your knowledge and explanations are mesmerizing and addicting for my understanding of religious history.
you don't need to know everything in life. eat, pray, love. the end.
@@kosovir Relevant.
One of my favorite lecturers. Thank you for putting this out there for us!
Wish someone would edit out mic changes and unpleasant feedback lol
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Adds to the grlt
Really enjoying these lectures (watching from Perth, Western Australia). John Hamer is an absolute fountain of knowledge, providing comprehensive and fascinating context in each lecture which helps frame the main topic. I'm not sure if John monitors these comments, but in case he does, and is in a position to answer, one question I would have is:
was the James-led Jerusalem church/Jacobist church also the one that was known at various times as "The Way"? Also, I presume this group fell away after Paul's approach ultimately 'won out', but is there a modern day equivalent 'Jerusalem' church, and if so, how far back could it trace its origins as far as a connection between the original group of James? (Probably too protracted an answer to provide in UA-cam comments?! Ha ha!). Most importantly, hope all is well :) Thanks. Matt
Nice Scratch Solo ~7:00 . There’s a famous group of DJ’s called “Invisibl Skratch Piklz” . I don’t know what that means but it sounds like y’all had an invisible scratch pickle attack…. Also: fascinating lecture 👍🏿
Thank you for this lecture. Extremely informative. I’m going to view this again although I’ll be taking notes next time. I liked and subscribed.
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And your personal honesty is so refreshing. Constantly questioning what we REALLY know !!!!
And your diagrams are great, easy to follow, as well as your other illustrations. Very Good job on the early Christian beliefs and significant players.
Overall just a great presentation in a very easy to follow flow of information. Thank you.
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because he used to be a professional map maker, i think it explains why his diagrams are so good
Another brilliant 🤩 show from John well done man
Did the lecturer play bass for Rush?
Lead Singer.
I will choose free will!
@@nosuchthing8 and bass, too. Geddy Lee played virtuoso-level rock bass AND sang at the same time.
Who else is for stretching it to 3 hours to accommodate questions?
The more I learn about Christian history the more I feel vindicated in leaving. What a mess.
They left from among us because they were not from us, the reason they left is because it should be obvious that they didnt belong with us.
It WAS a mess. Constantine forced everyone to fall in line.
@@nosuchthing8No, the mainline Church did, Constantine was a supervisor of sorts who just wanted Christians to get along so he could hold power
What does the messiness of Christianity have to do with Jesus though?
Which Jesus?
Sound volume is too low on your videos. Much lower than other videos of this kind.
Love your content!
I learned a lot following this channel.
Thanks!!! All lectures are great
Excellent stuff. Perhaps make it a practice that the volume on a normal phone at half is audible.
That was a great presentation! Thank you so much for sharing. This is one to listen to over and over again, especially in light of what we're living through today with sooooo many different points of view, held with such passionate conviction. Once again, it reminds us of the importance of listening within to discover the truth of our own Divine within.
"...the truth of our own Divine within."
So you think you're 'deus?'
@@arturofuente4832 the Deity is within......our soul is Devine. It is interesting how Kabbalah has the Tree Of Life (Etz Ha Chayim) as the symbol of both the Cosmos (the Body Of God) AND as a symbol of the HUMAN BODY. Macrocosm and Microcosm. This is is Genesis (allegorical) as "..man was made in the image of God". We are the Deity ! Every tradition has this wisdom across the world ,except sadly in the case of 99.9% of Christianity which tends to suffocate the real SOUL or Divine Within......they seem to be in fear of the Soul....they run from it and try to stomp it out in their own children as well as any other culture which may celebrate this "rising within"
Sounds like rejuvenation of the narcissistic self worship (which abounds in the Materialist, "enlightened" Age), expressed in a semi-spiritual manner.
@@corneliuscapitalinus845 "Narcissistic self worship". It is narcissistic if one operates from the human ego-intellect and thinks that's all there is so he/she knows best. Power games are often the result. I'm speaking of going BEYOND the human ego-intellect. Letting go of what our ego thinks it knows to discover Divine Guidance from deep within. That Divine Guidance most often brings forth elements of compassion and definitely Unconditional Love manifest in some form. We're all capable of hearing that guidance, even if many don't choose it, or unaware of it.
when someone gives you the mic during a QA that doesnt mean you can start telling your own stories and anecdotes
I remember the time I derailed a comment section by telling my own story in response to a comment. Let me tell you about that time…
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 well played!
Are you part of the congregation?
Hi John and Toronto Congregation. The video presentation is great but the audio quality is lacking.
I love these. Always informative and educational.
Further, despite the decision to purge Second Temple Judaic texts from the Judaic canon, elements of essenism and ancient Jewish Christianity (merkabah, hekhalot, Kabbalah) have remained in the form of Jewish mysticism to this day, and that it is practiced by some Christians.
I have a Master of Ancient History from a decade ago and am loving these lectures too.
These lectures are a gift thank you
Another presentation very well done
Y’all would probably do really well if you started a podcast for your lectures!
Great idea!
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Definitely agree! My only gripe is that if they made these lectures into a podcast format they should really limit audience interaction to the end as it creates a disruption in the flow of information. I also get the vibe in some lectures that the audience always wants to add more information to one-up John & it's really annoying. I wish people would just listen to the lecture and hold their questions until the end!
What a great topic! Thank you for posting this for the world to able to access! Much love from Sweden
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Funny thing is the Bible doesn't teach of a being named Satan. Satan was any adversary
the audio is low. you should increase the audio volume first with format factory software or something. it's free.
Nothing in life is free.
I really enjoyed this. Learned so much, it's almost overwhelming, but I think I got the main points.
At 1 hour in, the works side of the faith vs works debate is outrageously misrepresented as mere empty observance of rituals and customs. But the Epistle of James makes it crystal-clear that's NOT what "works" means to James and his gang.. It says very emphatically that if someone shows up at your church who is cold and hungry, and you pray for him but offer him no food & no cloak, your religion is empty. This also comes in the context of farm workers getting cheated out of their wages by rich men who "have fattened their [own] hearts for a day of slaughter"! To say that James & Co are just getting persnickety over ritual observances is a complete distortion of the essence of the Paul-vs-James debate (although it's probably consistent with how Paul wants us to see it).
I wrote the above before I'd listened beyond that point, and after hearing the rest, I guess Prof Hamer might agree there's more to it than just observing Jewish law, and I might agree that the law was a bigger part of it than I thought. But I still believe the dangerous sincerity of James and his congregation involved more fidelity to the rabble-rousing, revolutionary implications of Christ's teachings, whereas Paul was largely concerned with toning down the troublesome parts of the message and substituting his own neoplatonism or whatever it was. (Martin Luther, who sold out the rebellious peasants the reformation had inspired, wanted James erased. Luther's antisemitism as well as his sucking up to nobles and megaburghers was no doubt a factor.)
If you click the three dots by the comment there's a delete button. Feel free to use it at your convince.
@@ANONM60D WOW could you be ruder?
@@tombutler7296 I could try, but really my intent was to be informative seeing as he has already concluded that the subject he is commenting on has been thoroughly covered in the video. Replying to your own comment to correct yourself is redundant. Might as well just delete, this is why I explained because I assumed anyone that knew how to delete this comment would have done so.
This man is so well researched.
Profoundly wonderful & reveling light on the Christ & his time. In Hindu religions similar to baptism in holy river of Ganges is routinely performed at the nexus of rivers at Kasi or Baneras... I get profound spiritual understanding on Christ's teaching from these talks. So much philosophical spiritual similarities.
S
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You may enjoy the book, Autobiography of a Yogi, in which, Jesus appears to Babaji in India, and asks him to establish a line of meditation teachers to go to the West and reintroduce to Christians how to love God with their hearts as well as minds, through meditation. A variety of communities have arisen under the teachings of Yogananda.
@@k8eekatt its available free to read online read it long time ago. Hope to & Will read again thanks
Lovely. As a Sunni Muslim this lecture is fascinating
Any Muslim brothers and sisters:check out Let's Talk Religion on UA-cam. The young man who makes it is an excellent scholar,I believe from Sweden. His Arabic is impeccable.
Y go 2 proper bible believing christian 2 tell u the truth. This guy is a liar
@@bass9351 academia is not religious. It's knowledge such as the role played by religion in society. Chill
@@TheCinamanic stop claiming that this is fact and this is that u r not bible theologian or christian so stop with your venom lies
@@bass9351 ok
Incredible lecture, in a whole series of incredible lectures. I'm slowly working my way through all of them. Thank you so much! 🎉
I noticed that a few of frescos in catacombs Jesus is holding a wand. Was Jesus seen as a magician by some Christian’s?
Yes, because he performed magic.
Very educational while also being engaging..total enjoyed while learning so much ❤.. The only negative was the lack of audio for the questions being asked during the lecture that is a little distracting
Volume
There was also a large dispersion of Jewish Christians south along the Red Sea, some who ended up in Axum/Ethiopia/Eritrea, and their descendants still practice a faith that has many Jewish Christian features (and texts). Coptic/Alexandrian Christianity also preserved and respected many of the Jewish Christian texts and values.
Is this different from Oriental Orthodoxy?
Right. There was also a huge Jewish community in the Arab Peninsula's areas of Medinah, Khaybar, and elsewhere (up till the birth of Islam).
@donkeysaurusrex7881 There is Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. Even though both words mean the same thing they use different words because they believe different things.
Marcion didn’t start outside the Church. He began in the church and was the son of a bishop. Same holds for Valentinius, the most important gnostic. The ebionites start isn’t documented so we aren’t sure but their end wasn’t by the Roman government or the Orthodox but instead they were absorbed into Islam.
Do you have any videos on this subject you'd recommend?
Yes, all the great heretics were members of the clergy.
I do have a question though for those in the know, the info I have read seems to indicate that Calvin was not a member of the clergy but instead a secular lawyer. But then some sources mention he had a chaplaincy. Wouldn’t this seem to indicate he was a priest or is my presumed understanding of what a chaplaincy is wrong? It does mention he became a chaplain at 12 so was this position at the time a minor order and not ordained clergy?
@@ChristopherWentling His father intended Calvin and his brothers to become priests, Calvin himself was at 12 ( twelve) employed as a clerk by the bisshop and received the tonsure, probably as a preparation to become a priest, what never happenen. Instead he took a carreer as a lawyer. Which profession exlains wy his writing are so tedious.
@@kamion53 haha, I have thought about the fact that his theology is the most legalistic of all the reformers. No great shock coming from a lawyer. By legalistic I mean legal like. Not guilty does not mean innocent but instead it is a legal definition that means you are declared not legally sanctionable for the crime you have been charged with.
Clear and comprehensive. Thanks for the effort involved in making this available.
One can only see how important the influence of Jesus is in history, atheists will at least have to acknowledge that.
Even atheists and other "heathens" live in the 2023 year of our LORD. 😉
It's almost like two lawyers named Paul and James, had caused enough trouble for the high courts. So next, the Romans just said to heck with this anymore, and exterminated them both. /!
How could Peter be the bishop of Rome and yet put into a situation where he was martyred.
That's a good point. Not to mention he was married wasn't he
Wonderful presentation, love this information on the gnostics and alternative branches of Christianity. Audio guy needs to be more more aware of his surroundings - walks right in front of camera?
Wonderfully comforting piano.
Thx for your Work! Could you pls Tell me where to find the paintings of Jesus in your introducing screen? Must be oldest ones in rome?
Thank you for educating me about the churches. From the Philuppines❤
As a LDS I am loving this
I agree with the first poster. Great content! But double your volume.
The volume is louder now
The sacrifice of the Roman cult acknowledges the emperor as a god. Nothing like pledging allegiance to the flag as in the U.S.
Thank you for this. You would enjoy the theology of the Ancient Antiochene Church..it claims what you are talking about. TSW - Eric King
very interesting lecture(s). can you tell what is the reason that Paul (who was a Jew) had to claim that Jesus was a God? why he needed such a "strong" claim? was it because he needed a God to cancel the old Laws of God (Shabbat, Non-Kosher, Circumcision etc)??? because a "simple" prophet has no authority to cancel God's laws??
Money, money, money.
@@lepidoptera9337 i do not understand what you are talking about
@@johnkt1628 Money, money, money.
Your idea seems plausible. Who else could provide the required authority to revise God’s authority?
@@MendTheWorld Anybody has that authority. There is no valid ip claim or copyright on god. You want to invent something about it, just go ahead. Nobody can sue you.
Make sure sound is corrected!
Thank you 🙏
I believe they (the group mentioned in my previous comment above) were the 'losers' of the propaganda battle who were completely erased from history which represent 'True Christianity' precisely because they were the most human and not focused on a sophistic war of propaganda. The 'victors' basically focusing on the art of war and all its forms 'won'. The real followers of Isos have been erased from history.. but I can still see them and they can be reconstructed fully.
The literature of so called early fathers, circa 100 AD os available on the internet. Check it out and see if the continuity of early church and the church of the third and fourth century exists. Gnosticism was kicked out of the church in the moment it appeared. The time travel leeds to the great schism 1054 AD, and then Orthodx and Catholic Church.
The winners of Religions are terribly misguided Slave Owners.
I learned a lot. Thank you.
Interesting lecture that goes into some nice details. However, the biggest flaw in the lecture is the unthinking use of the concept of "heresy" without any context. What is heresy? Where did the concept come from? It certainly isn't in the bible. In the bible Jesus is quoted speaking out AGAINST heresy, eg Luke 9:50; Mark 9:40. Only one sect of Christians used the word, in what century did they invent it? Heresy seems to be a very late invention of the Orthodox church to be used as a political tool. Valentinus was almost elected Pope, he was part of the mainstream church, but lectures like this make it seem like he was some sort of outsider. When we use words like "heretical" we are giving weight to one side of the issue, which is not the best way to do history. I'd like to see a lecture on these various christian groups that doesn't use the word "heresy" (except to say the Orthodox church classified those who disagreed with it as "heretics", a non-scriptural term that Jesus spoke out against).
On another not, Mr. Hamer seems to portray the "secret mystery" aspect of Gnosticism as suspect. In fact, that was the norm for religions of the period. All the Greek Mysteries religions had people passing around secret knowledge in closed meetings. Even within Jewish culture, (as we know from Josephus), the Essenes had initiation rituals and secrets that needed to be learned. Gnosticism, seems a natural extension of that. If John the Baptists was an Essene, ( or at least, from the Essenic tradition as seems likely) then it would mean these essenic "secret teachings" would have been a part of the early Jesus movement. Jesus, after all, was baptized into Johns movement. Jesus also speaks in parables, which is a common way of passing on secret knowledge. Several times in the Gospels Jesus asks people to keep secrets and to keep certain knowledge or events secret. The Gospel of Mark itself seems to have the ending chopped off, perhaps, if one accepts Clements letter on secret mark, this was done because it was reserved for initiates. I think Mr. Hamer did not do justice to the importance and the validity of secret teachings within 1st century religion and displays a bias towards "open, everyone gets too to hear everything" religion which is a modern thing, and entirely out of place is the 1st century.
Great information, very well presented.
I am gnostic by no means, but the quote “If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you.” gave me chills
What was the supposed heresy Dante was exiled for? I can’t remember what it is called.
The idea that Christians wanted to be persecuted in rome is controversial
Who wouldn't want to be set on fire alive, right? I mean, come on, that's a lifelong dream come true!
But would Josephus have used the word Christ or Christian? My source says the word Christian wasn't being used at that time yet.
@A Publick Domain right, I agree with that. But that isn't the "un-interpolated" given in the lecture.
@A Publick Domain thanx for the thoughtful replies. But I do have to wonder if someone like Josephus would have used any Christ word at all, as it implies a belief of Jesus being anointed. Jesus related words, sure, but then there is always a "which Jesus" question.
@A Publick Domain but it is by itself. No one notices it until Eusebius, the guy who probably forged it, and its location is in the middle of something that has nothing to do with it. And plus the fact that uses language that Josephus wouldn't use. All add up to a good case that its a complete forgery. If you go down the road that it's only a partial forgery...well, you've already admitted Christians are willing to lie to make their "history". The only question is how much and how far they'll take it. It's a controversial passage. To claim you know 100% that it is authentic stretches credibility. At the very most (least) I'll admit it is controversial.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Center place videos. I approach these things from a much more critical and skeptical side. But I like to get more than one view point to get some balance so I can make up my mind. The fundamentalist view just isn't epistemologically viable at all. The only other view point worth considering is the liberal Christian view point, as presented here, but it has its bias as well. I give him his props for presenting as much as he can with a very non-judgmental delivery, but at times that pushes my credulousness. For instance, he really soft pitches Mormonism. I don't know if that is good or bad. If you know about the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the book of Abraham, or the counterfeiting, or the sex trafficking, or the hit squads, or the arson, etc, etc, you have to wonder how there are any Mormons at all. Sometimes a little critical examination is called for.
No, the testamonium flavium uses the word Christian. And even calling him the Christ is a bit out of line for Josephus. There is a good summation of the arguments against the authenticity of this passage on the Wikipedia page and you'll have to do better than that to convince me that Eusebius didn't write the entire passage. Many arguments from textual criticism.
A wonderful lecture!
@36 Jesus brothers and siblings. In my dad's family cousins called each other brother " brother Joseph, brother George, sister Theodora" never Joseph, George, or Theodora. It was strange to me as I saw them in the summer in the mountain during the family gatherings. And it is not a family of monks or priests. Only the ancient generation did that. I still have only 2 or 3 living uncles that do that. This habit is dying with the new generation. Strangely my mom's family never did that.
There is an arabic translation of the Josephus text that appears to have avoided the christian interpolation (discovered by Shlomo Pines) "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
thx! However: Q - What of the nearly 1000 years of Greco-Buddhism? Seems rather significant.
marcionites = original greek/pauline christianity, with a celestial "lower divinity/angel" jesus. proto-luke ("marcionite canon") is speaking to this group
ebionites = original aramaic jewish christianity, with a human "adoptionalist" messiah jesus proto-matthew ("gospel of the hebrews") is speaking to this group
gnostic = original mystery teachings, of the various non-literal christianities, not an offshoot
bishops = a sect which only utilizes the literal teachings, the bishops are opposed to the christianities with mystery teachings, and label them "gnostikoi" (meaning "intellectuals" in a derogatory way, rather than "gnostics" as a title)
proto-orthodox = roman imperial infiltration of the bishop sect, they tie the jewish and greek christologies together with the bishopian literalist interpretation, as the trinity doctrine
Thank you Centre Place and many thanks to you John Hamer too! 👍😊
The *Alawites* (predominate as a secretive, sort-of Shia/Shi'ite sect[1] mostly in modern Syria) and the *Druze*
(live in Israel, Lebanon, Syria) seem to have incorporated several of the ideas of those early Christian sects,
some aspects of Islam as well as some elements of Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism. Iraq has several
ethnoreligious sects some are Christian then there are the Mandaeans, the Yazidi (originated as a Kurdish,
pre-Zoroastrian, religion), the Shabaks (Ali-Illahism) the Yarsanis (aka: Yarsanism, Ahl-e Haqq or Kaka'i) and
the followers of the Baháʼí Faith
Some who have studied the early beginnings of Islam have mentioned the Jews/Jewish Christians in the Hejaz
of the modern country of KSA. At least one of them have stated that some of the early Muslims were *Sadducees*
(A very wealthy group of Jewish merchants prominent in 1st century Judaism)
The *Pharisees* were the people who developed the synagogue movement in the post First Jewish-Roman war
(66 CE -- 74 CE) era I have often wondered if the *Mandaeans* (aka: Nasoraeans) are an offshoot of the Jewish
*Essenes* (Dead Sea scrolls) or the early Ebionites. Mandaeans claim to have existed as a monotheistic religion
before both Christianity and Islam. Under Muslim rule, they declared themselves to be Sabians to avoid persecution
I wonder if some of the Ebionites were the Jews who converted to Islam. The early Muslims were merchants as
were the very rich Sadducee families of Jewish v. Roman War era. Medina (KSA) used to be known as Yathrib.
Both Yathrib/Medina and Khaybar were places where Jews lived in what is now modern KSA (Hejaz)
______________________
1.) Some Shia/Shi'ites will claim that the Alawites are a wayward cult/sect. Since 2005, the Iranian mullahs
have been active in Syria attempting to inspire the Alawites to be more "pure" in their Shi'ite practice of
Islam. (Some Alawites resent the patronizing attitude of Iranian clergy)
Bashar Assad (president of Syria) essentially signed away Syrian independence in 2005 to obtain "protection"
in a "defense" agreement with Iran. Iran needs access from Iran/Iraq through Syria to control it's special forces,
the IRGC and its political/terrorist group, Hezbollah in Lebanon.
The geopolitical aim of Iran is the same as the ancient Persian empires: Control the territory from the
eastern shore of the Mediterranean (including mainland Greece, if possible) eastward, to modern
Afghanistan and the coast of Baluchistan province Pakistan (Baluch are Shi'ite Muslims) I
you mention the second century.... what about the first century... just after Jesus died?? the first 30-50 years??? who were the believers at that time?
It addition, the Greek Orthodox faith has been friendly toward / tolerant of various elements of Jewish Christianity, and that mysticism associated with ancient Jewish Christianity has been evident among certain religious orders, such as the Carmelites and Mt. Carmel Christians.
John is sporting the Jesus hair style 🤣
What about the influence of the Roman emperors the Selucids? Or the Flavians? Did they invent ancient Christianity?
That guy nearly knows early church history smh
It was first in Jerusalem as there was Syrian Christians and the earliest churches in Armenia till Yeman
We are supposed to believe that Jesus appeared to Paul and told him a whole lot of stuff he forgot to tell his followers whilst he walked around with them for years.
Paul invented Jesus as the later "Church" sees him.
James basically got rid of Paul after an argument with more or less "do what you like, leave us alone" .
What about other initial churches like Ethiopian?
Is the gnostic philosophy closer to what ideas the freemasons play around with? If not the freemasons then how about the Rosicrucian or sufi tradition?
True fishermen would understand the sun and the moon cycles and likely know the constellations a well. No?
James' real Hebrew name is Yakov, not Jacob.
Who is this person who keeps hijacking this mans lecture. By the end you can tell he's like getting a little fed up with it. She goes from asking questions to just outright making comments.
I have been self-studying this subject for years and this has been a comprehensive overview with very clear graphics and textual examples that I have seen on youtube.
Maybe a good analogy to early Christianity would be the figure of Karl Marx whose revolutionary idea lead to a plethora of movements claiming to be his true message. Socialism,Communism,Marxism,Trotskism,Leninism,Stalinism,Maoism et al.
Its all just judaism aka satanism
@@GODHATESADOPTION LOL
The difference is that Marx left us an extensive body of work defining his ideas, as did all of the followers you've mentioned. We can compare what his followers said with what he said. With Christianity, neither Christ nor his immediate circle left us anything that survived.
@@pirbird14 its called the bible...
@@GODHATESADOPTION Jesus wrote the Bible? lol
When you get to the part where Christianity might start to touch Islam, I let out a sigh. I didn't realize I have that question all my life.
The rapist is mainly made up BS for and by plunders and rapists
@@universalflamethrower6342 Islam got Jesus right centuries before academia uncovered this
@@stevenv6463 Isl4m is mainly there to justify Childbrides, multiple wives and sexslaves. The Jesus in Isl4m is made subserviant to carnal pleasures, so that is not Jesus
your whole premise is that Peter was first Bishop in Rome. there is zero evidence Peter was ever in Rome, so how could he have been Rome’s first bishop? should be evidence of it.
There's plenty of evidence that he was in Rome.
So, religion(s), _including Cristianity_ evolved in the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd centuries just as it does today…. by a process of social Darwinian selection. New varieties and changes are implemented or simply appear, and the ones that gain traction, and have the most appeal, are the ones that thrive. Other variants either decline or disappear entirely.
Every innovation of Christianity over Judaism and Paganism can be obviously and easily understood in this context. The new changes would have had obvious appeal to potential followers. The doing away with the laws of kosher (Hurray shrimp wrapped in 🥓), the stringent requirements for joining the faith, the promise of “pie in the sky”, etc. ALL these innovations explain the ascendancy of Christianity.
Does any of this have anything to do with God? Ockham’s Razor certainly advises against it. The existence or role of God, or _a god_ is simply not necessary to explain the historical facts of the matter. We can account for Christianity in completely secular context.
@Bhi fee I think he meant scientific not secular. All these early varieties of christianities were mutating and evolving to find the best version of the faith.
Ways to approach an answer for this comes from continued questioning: Would the people of this time would consider themselves Christians or Jewish or are these modern re-writing of history to create a legacy to the past that never existed? Did Christianity really exist before it’s construction as a state religion of the Roman Empire? The four of these groups seem like a modern day amalgamation.
Jewish Christianity evolved in various ways (e.g., Nestorians/Ancient Church of the East), Miaphysite, non-Chalcedonian, and Arian Christianity, and today's Oriental Orthodox churches, including the Armenian Apostolic Church. Some Syriac Christians (e.g. Maronites) continued to practice their faith in and around ancient Judea/Galilee.
Bring back the Ebionites ! (Sans circumcision)
I’m
Back
@@Thelastofusfan297 ok what’s the next move??
I've enjoyed listening to the teachings here, but that emblem is very similar to the mambla logo and the one for women and little girls. So much so that I don't think it's an accident. Are you inclusive of those people too?
His statement that there was no structure before Constantine is wrong. By 225 there was a clear structure with Rome having some form of primacy. How could there have been a council in 325 if there was not already a highly developed authority structure. The Pope communicated with Constantine and the council.
How do the scholarship ship know that the Jesus text in Josephus was inserted by monks? Where is the proof of this?
Romans 10:9 KJV “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
John 3:16 King James Version 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved. John 3:16 (share the good news of the gospel around the world!) Have a wonderful day/night, may the LORD bless you all, and farewell!,.,,,,,,
Galatians 3:26 KJV For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Remember the Game Telegraph where you would whisper something to someone and they would repeat it too the next person and so on and so on then at the end the message was completely different? Remember that the next time you read the Bible.
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Hmm. I thought Paul was saying that without Agape, neither faith, nor works alone are sufficient
.
Loving this channel!!
Adding some of the sources to the end of the presentation would be helpful
Sir you forgot the bishops off Chris under Potolomy 305 years before Jesus.