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Reviewing Mew2King's BEST of ALL TIME List
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2020
- HugS watches M2K's Top 10 of All Time video and compares it to his own,
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#Melee #SuperSmashBros #Hugs86
Hugs doesn't get enough credit for pioneering a shitty mid tier.
Damn dude 😂😂😂
I would like to see Plup vs Hugs Samus ditto
@@dazeen9591 Have you seen the infamous Apex Salty Suite match between them?
That should be worth something I mean Axe basically invented Pika to be viable at the highest level of the game in the current era
@@TheMOReviewers yeah but that was 6 years ago
GOATS of all character list would be dope
Yesss
I’ve been waiting for someone to do a list like this for FOREVER. Definitely will be fantastic.
or most influential players of each character
plup
hugs
chillin
and please dont keep it to just relevant characters i want to hear about the lake, bum, djnintendo, etc
Hugs still salty about that time he went to kens house and got whooped by his little sister
I think the difference is that hugs is evaluating the "best" players of all time, but "greatest" has a lot more room for interpretation. Hugs is almost certainly more accurate in term of skill but I think I agree with M2K for "greatest". Personal opinion I guess
That's true. There is a huge difference also in the importance of the beat players in their respective times.
If you're going to point out a discrepancy in semantics, I recommend you provide, what you consider to be, the correct definitions.
@@TheGeopigMan Not OP, but I think they're going for "best" = most skilled, and "greatest" = combination of skill, imapct, and legacy
TheGeopigMan he means greatest is who has yhe most wins the best result the best is the one who is the most skilled
It's all well and good providing possible interpretations.
However, it doesn't change the fact that you could be wrong.
OP hasn't provided a clear definition by their own standard, despite pointing out a discrepancy in semantics.
Bruh Hugs is still salty about losing to Kens sister
What
M2K reading off his resume for his entry spot at #4??
honestly I think it was warranted, Leffen might be underrated (unfortunately, since he's an asshole). He has more super major wins and should have been number 1 in more competitive era.
Armada's retirement in 2018(?) should mark a new era IMO. He was the ultimate gatekeeper, and it's not a coincidence that Zain, Axe, and Wizzy have won supermajors after he left. New players have a much better chance of entering the top 5 without him
axe and wizzy yes, but zain never got the chance to prove himself against armada. It is probably the greatest what if of melee
@@swank8508 zain would have gotten destroyed in 2018 but by late 19 he could do it and he's gotten even better since then. If Zain fought Armada now, Zain would crush the first few sets then armada would adapt and they'd probably go back and forth.
@@virn333 and look at zain now
M2ks list is based on legacy. Yours is based on skill over time. They're not quite the same list.
lol Hugs just really hates the old school legends except M2K.
U r missing a key point in your arguments and is how dominant u r compared to ur peers and the ones above. For ex the 5 gods were unmatched, but axe isn't, leffen isn't zqin isn't. These guys can loose to other really good players any day, but not the god, or ken in his time. The separation u can create between u and the rest is a really important factor that u don't seem to even realize exists. And it is true in any esport o sport
NGL, kinda disappointed that M2K didn't do the Mang0/HBox tiebreaker with 'whoever has more sets against him'.
I mean Mango a winning record on Hbox so Mango still wins.
I think you are underplaying Kens abilities. Kens best ability is adaptation. In the golden era of 2003-2006, Kens dominance was marked by how impressive it is that every time a new tactic occured he could find a way to beat it and stay number 1. In a lot of fighting game early days, the persom staying on top shifts rapidly then settles. Ken being in the reverse pattern shows that he would probably be better than he was in the golden era if he was still playing.
This is why Ken is so inspiring. Despite being behind the Meta in terms of tech skill, he was ALWAYS able to overcome and adapt. Of course, he retired and the game evolved so fast after he retired which does mean he can't be number 1 goat, but there is a definite argument for him peeking into a 5th spot.
I think for these kinds of conversations, we have to clearly differentiate between being *the best* (that is to say, the most highly skilled in terms of pure competitive proficiency) and *the greatest* , which is something altogether separate from raw skill and instead posits the highest level of 'greatness' (a term which implies things like legacy, accolades, etc)... The example I always use to illustrate this distinction is the classic Michael Jordan vs Lebron James debate: MJ has 6 championships and is widely considered the greatest because of his legacy, but if we time-warped the Jordan from 1998 into the current basketball meta, he would be behind on 20 years of development made in the sport since then, and would undoubtedly underperform compared to today's top players (Lebron James, Kawhi Leonard, and Steph Curry all come to mind). The game as a whole has progressed a lot and the average NBA player is much better in overall stats today than 20 years ago. This is why I consider Jordan to be the "greatest of all time" but Lebron to be the "best of all time", and by this exact same logic, why I consider Armada and Mango to be the *greatest* , but accept that the argument could still be made that Hbox, Leffen or Zain are the *best* .
MangO is the goat imo because his influence and just the fact that he has dominated and been the best ever on one character top 3 on another and top two on his 3rd character.
M2k's list seems like more of a historical importance list while Hugs's list is more of a skill list.
At this point Leffen, Zain and PPMD are more historically relevant to melee than Ken. Even 2 years ago they were.
@@QuartzGolem my oddly shaped balls are more important historically than ken
It's definitely not a skill list. If I had a time machine and brought prime Ken to Genesis 9, I'm not sure he would make it out of pools.
@@ziwuri Yea, in fact, the most "skilled" players of all time are generally going to be the current top players, because as the meta develops, players get better and better over time.
So when you're making GOAT lists, historical importance and legacy is always relevant.
Please please keep uploading and doing reactions, youre literally one of the funniest dudes ever
I want to see hugs go thru everyone's top list. Its would be funny
I am curious how other gods and non believers rank the best players.
hugs the hgod ball fondler
Hugs be clicking on the pause button everytime to pause the video
real boomer hours
wtf? clicks on the pause button to pause the video
@@derous you can just click the screen the video takes up, it's much easier, maybe Ur on a phone
@@nucleartree8159 I'll be honest, I have no idea what my comment is about. I think it is a joke but I don't remember lmao
@@derous truly unacceptable punishment is death
i think the game leveling up isn't a reason to place higher or lower, peoples abilities based on the tools they have for success is relative to their greatness. Both lists are great and this is why i love these discussions!
@Ryan Lockwood ie?
Uh, 2010 was when Mang0 started to not care about winning. Genesis 2 in the middle of 2011 is when he took the game seriously again and started using Fox and Falco.
Mango has more tournament wins, major wins, super major wins, years in top 3, years as the best player, and is still finishing top 3 in the era where hbox is #1. I actually don’t see much of an argument for Hbox over Mango other than him being ranked #1 more recently
if HBox gets ranked #1 again I think he has the longest #1streak of all time supassing ken and M2K armada and mang0. I think people will underrate this truth! being #1 is already a huge accomplishment but to do it in a long streak is pretty huge. Im not a hbox fan and I dont even like puff but I have a feeling people will not like this truth lol Kinda messed up.
KemicalKiddMUSIC the difference between Hbox and even the fourth best player in the world is not as large as the difference between Mango and everyone else until 2015
@@ethangilworth7891 peak mango's gap was bigger compare to the rest vs hbox compares to the rest but hbox was more consistent and do it in the more competitive era, also he goes toe to toe vs armada peak as one point
@@NoryLevi This is the kind of stuff people need to focus on. Differential compared to field at the time etc. This whole "old era doesnt count" is bullshit. This isnt a list of the top fastest APM button pressers of all time or some shit. If Ken was #1 he was #1 and you cant take that away because the sport has progressed. It wasnt back then plain and simple.
@@fuzzywraith its like saying real madrid in the 50s winning european champions league in a tourny with 8 teams and lot of strong teams from big countries like england can't participate for political reason is as strong as a team winning the very same tournament now with 256 teams and the sport has been more popular
(more competition) as well
Loving the new intro, Hugs. Good stuff! Really been digging the way your channel has been going.
Agreed. Hugs may be on hiatus from melee, but he's been keeping his channel game on point
I think greatest of all time is a lot more telling than simply best of all time. That puts oldschool players automatically in a huge disadvantage as the metagame naturally got more complex as years went on.
Not just pioneering but Mango was good as 3 different characters. In a sense was more masterful at melee as a whole. That takes a lot talent and skill to be great with different characters. Hbox has only been successful with one character.
If you only play one character you’re only going to be good with one character.
Mango is certainly not the first to be good on multiple Characters. Back in the Day Azen could literally play anything, M2K to this day can play literally anything (his Fox, Marth and Sheik are god-tier too) Ken Played Marth, Fox and Cpt Falcon, Isai had Cpt Falcon, Shiek and Marth. KDJ had a fox, marth and Sheik. All of these players listed were winning with multiple characters before Mango was even competing. On top of that, Mango played just jigs for like 2-3 str8 years before switching to Falco and dropping Jigs so he didn't even play them at the same time. Over the years since then his fox has developed as well so really he has 2 characters he can play at the top level, isn't the first to have multiple and the two he can play currently are arguably the two most similar characters in the game except for maybe Mario and Dr Mario. Now don't get me wrong, Mango's the fucking man but even the idea that he 'was/is more masterful at melee as a whole over everyone else' is absolutely absurd.
Ok Bradley. Mang0 will use Falco and Fox against top level players in tournament, Hbox will use only Jiggs, Mew2King will use Marth, Sheik and Fox against top level players. Therefore Mew2King is better than Mang0 and Hbox agreed?
Solo maining actually makes it HARDER to be ranked higher. You dont have counterpicks.
Its a lot easier to win a bad Mu for your character if you dont even play the bad MU and instead play a character who does well in that MU. Its a lot harder to do well when you play the same character no matter what the match up is like. [this includes personal match ups too].
The reason Mang0 plays more than 1 character is because he is more likely to win doing it. If he was solo falco or solo Fox, he would do worse than he currently is because he would have slightly weaker counterplay to the people he counterpicks vs. For example, if he was solo Falco, he would struggle more vs players such as HBox as Fox is a better character in that match up. But if he was solo Fox, then he would struggle vs players he much prefers Falco in.
Playing multiple characters isnt a crutch. Its an advantage. Thats why people DO that. You can easily get away with solo maining yea, especialy if your character is top tier, but playing multiple characters does provide a strong advantage. Like, Amsa would probably have taken more than 1 set in his life off of HBox if he had a Fox secondary. But Amsa solo mains yoshi so he struggles much more. Its more obvious with bad characters why a secondary is so powerful, but it still applies to top tiers too.
Eh I get what you're saying at 6:20 Hugs, but you can't discredit Ken's reign because you have to compare it to everyone's skill level at that time. Of course he doesn't hold a candle to the top players today, but you can't compare him to the players of today because he doesn't even practice / compete anymore. To make a fair BEST OF ALL TIME list you have to rank players on how they were in their respective era's, not comparing old gen with new gen players (unless the old gen player still plays today).
Mango Armada
I started watching melee in 2014 I wanna say Apex was the first tournament I watched and the meta has changed hard since then. You gotta remember Mang0 used to say he would never learn how to shield drop and people thought that was fine. You remember perfect ledge dash used to be a meme and now you better do it at least a semi consistent if you wanna beat anyone top 25.
I started watching a year later (Apex 2015) and while new techs like crouch-canceling and shield dropping have upped the ante, the general feel and flow of the game has stayed the same since then. There's been a pretty reliable circuit of major events to watch each year, cameras and film technology has been mostly the same since 2013, and so has streaming. The narrative between players has been largely the same (the 5 gods, minus PPMD, w/ Leffen trying to break in. Armada is best, then HBox is best.) If there is anything to launch us into a new era of Melee it would be something to do with the launch of ultimate, getting dropped from evo, the upsets in the last year, and whatever comes of the current upheaval in the community.
I will lean myself onto what hugs says on this one. A guy that even though he could keep up with the later stages of the game was ranked higher on his prime as a pioneer player, Values the most modern rankings power in objectively the most difficult eras. Seems like a not too personally attached way to make a ranking.
you react to his comments in a way that assumes he's being egotistical, but I think he made his video with much more humility than you give credit for.
1. Armada
2. Hungrybox
3. Mang0
4. Mew2King
5. Leffen
6. Plup
7. PPMD
8. Ken
9. Axe
10. ChuDat
HM: Wizzrobe, PC Chris, Azen, Amsah, aMSa
Me: Relatively new to following Melee, seen the doc, most valued era is five gods and current.
Huge disrespect to Leffen to rank Ken over him, even when looking at it from M2K's POV.
1. Hungrybox
2. Armada
3. Mang0
4. Mew2King
5. Leffen
6. PPMD
7. Ken
8. Chudat
9. Plup
10. Axe
11. Zain
12. SFAT
13. Isai
14. Azen
15. Wizzrobe
16. KDJ
17. PC Chris
18. Shroomed
19. AMSA
20. Westballz
I've been thinking about what you say about the Ken's era and I finally got it. I believe that you would rank Ken better if he would have done better the recent years when he appeared again.
It's funny how things have changed in just 2 years. Right now my top 5 of all time are
1 - Mang0
2 - Hbox
3 - Armada
4 - M2K
5 - Leffen
14:00 So Mang0 is the Kenpachi of Melee. That's badass
I do think Armada has the most dominant stretch, but I personally put Mang0 and Hbox over him due to longevity. They are the only two gods remaining in 2024, and they both had solid stretches of being No. 1
Who know how Armada would do against the new age of Zain and Cody, but we do know how Mang0 and Hbox have fared
Hugs drinking beer from my home state very nice
Bros where do I get those Team Beer shirts? Link? I’ve searched and no luck
i really like this insight. smart guy
I don't think I've ever heard of a person from the east coast talk mad shit about the east coast being dominant and whatnot. It's always west coast dudes. I don't even disagree necessarily, it's just that victim complex west coast people have is a little wild.
Unlawful Samus discrimination caught on camera
Leffen was #1 at one of point in 2015 he won like 5 majors in like 3 months before visa issues and armada started his domination. Never ranking wise I think but technically he was before big house 5.
I swear m2k records half of these when he's tired and hungry as hell and is at the point where he can barely form a sentence
jesus give the guy a break man he has speech which has struggled with his whole life. he speaks way clearer from before and i think he did a pretty good job here.
@@TheBiomedZed I ain't hating man it varies with him a lot
Those glasses are sharp!
m2k values winning of ken despite him beating people who today would be considered unknown bad players. it would be like saying the boston celtics of the 1960s are the best team ever for winning virtually every year but would be stomped by almost any team in a more competitive era. Michael jordan is the goat because even today he would probably be one of the top players even in today's standard of a higher level of competition. ken would not even be close.
on hbox vs mango, hbox did attend a lot more but a lot of those were pretty wack competition wise with maybe someone like s2j or sfat level attending as the other finalist. hbox also was getting bodied by mango until 2016ish, was pretty dominant for 2ish years then recently been trading sets. Mango did have more people that could beat him in his era (armada, ppmd, hbox) while hbox only really has had mango a few times, leffen a few times, and armada. I think a tie is in order but with hbox closer to getting the edge than m2k is leading on. If hbox continues to win i think 1-2 years he takes over as goat over armada
Man DIG getting all the oldies but goodies
Imagine putting a random 14 year old from 2019 up against 2005 Ken. I’d like to think that the game has evolved to the point that Ken would get bodied in that scenario LMFAO
I’d love the challenge, 15, but I get your point
He would still body casuals, but maybe random 14-year-olds who practice and play netplay on a regular basis.
There have been a lot of teenagers that have taken majors
It’s a matter of how much the skill ceiling has been raised to the point where kids today are practicing 20XX-type tech skill and then you go and watch old tournament grand finals videos and be like “are they playing yet? Why aren’t they doing [insert tech skill]?”
I think Ken at least deserves top 10 because at least during the years that he's playing, he wasn't really challenged by anyone.
One thing that the Five Gods of Melee have at this point in time and back in the 2010s is that each was almost as skillful as each other. Each placed #1, but there wasn't much of a skill gap between them.
Ken on the other hand was always ahead of mainly everyone. And though Hugs is right that the game kinda took off and that Ken's style is outdated, when you consider that he was undisputed King of Smash for 3 years and basically unbeatable except for the small time circumstances (Azen, PC at MLG New York and KDJ at MLG Las Vegas), that I feel deserves a lot of credit. Also, "Ken Combo."
i think a good argument for hbox being higher then mango is that they both were around the same when mango was the best but when hbox was the best (like recently that is) mango sort of had a m2k falling off thing despite winning smash con. like it wasn't the same closeness when hbox was the best is what I'm trying to say.
Ken got beat by BizzaroFlame. Not saying Bizz is bad but he's def not top tier which places Ken firmly out of top tier
Couldn't you argue that Mango and Hbox have been competing over roughly the same period of time and Mango was the better player for most of the time they have competed together. I feel like it's a fair way to compare them.
Not necessarily. Mango was easily stomping hbox when they were starting which we can say somewhere around 2007-2008. But looking at ssbm yearly rankings which started in 2013, hbox has been above mango since 2015. They’re very even in terms of yearly rankings.
I agree with your opinion on this so much
Excellent video!
Top 10 best best luigis of all time
I’ll believe Hugs’s competitive opinion when he starts missing charge shots
hugs weights the modern way heavier -- I agree more with M2k
edit: okay i like your clarification on rationale -- maybe ken era isn't as impactful / impressive
I dont get all this "old era results arnt valuable" like, old era players didnt have access to anything post-doc era players had. This isnt a list of the fastest APM pushers of all time. You dont think old era players had to deal with the same amount of performance pressure and it didnt feel as real to them back then? Resources get better in every sport year by year and current athletes are always better than their predecessors. We dont just throw out all the old results because of that lol.
love the content
why would you bully jason >:-(
Got M2K in the thumbnail lookin like he did something wrong.
Hugs I would love 2 see a melee teirlist
HugS: Why is Ken ranked above any of the Gods? Mew2King doesn't need to justify himself being over Ken, it's obvious.
Armada: Hmm, Mew2King ranked himself over Ken... Since he justified it with 10 minutes, I'll allow it this time.
Hugs I hope you can read this but I think what M2K meant was they left and came back and you, never left
Order should be mango hbox then armada
Mango is good with multiple characters. Hbox is good with one
I'm not saying I disagree. I'm also not a fan of Hbox personally. But GhengisJuan can still destroy your local top Spacie/sheik/Marth/Falcon main with solid spacing, 3 hit combos, and proper tech.
Yeah but Mang0 wont use all those characters against high level opponents in tournament. Mang0 will use Falco and Fox, Hbox will use Jiggs.
@@alanhill2331 Do you understand the concept of the main? Why is this even something to think about?
11:25 what tournament are u referring to
Pls do a goat's character list
m2k is in the smash doc, yet hes SUCH a doc kid...or at least jims for ken like a doc kid
Imagine being that salty that you dont put Ken in your Top10
I agree with it. Ken dominated the game at a time when nobody was that good. Getting middling results in the modern era is more impressive than dominating pre-2006.
It's like Margaret Court vs Serena Williams. Margaret Court has more grand slam titles, but she also played in an era when most players didn't physically train at all, and when many people still believed a woman's uterus could fall out if she exerted herself too much.
I can't stand by and watch hugs do mango dirty like that. If mango had try-harded everyone (like hbox) instead of scorping out (and being a fucking legend) he could've stagnated the scene by being too dominant for too long. I guess it depends on what you mean by "greatness"- smothering a scene with your desire to win even at the cost of being/playing lame, or allowing it to reignite by generally being a badass and flexing on fools with mario. We all have our opinions I guess
M2K always overvalues old-school legacy. Not surprising he put mang0 > HBox
Why does Hugs forget Ken was still balling out in 2007? Oh right! Ken beat Hugs in GF at EVO World 2007 and won $3000 more! hahaha
Facts hugs i noticed that and thanks for confirming it, he definitely bases his judgment of how good a play is on his own matches against them
I still feel PPMD should be higher than Leffen... He was ranked #1 at Apex 2014 went on hiatus then came back and won Apex 2015 despite everyone even Leffen saying he had no chance of winning. Whenever PP and Leffen played each other PP has displayed better neutral from what I've seen. Even Now PP does well against the New top players while being years out of practice...
i wasnt even born when azen started playing
Bruh you’re 12
just dont go to a smash function by yourself monkaS
Ken can’t even wave dash tho
It seems like Hugs misunderstands what "greatest" means when he's talking about the Leffen-Ken thing.
In most sports, we consider the dominance of players relative to their peers, not relative to modern standards. By Hug's logic, you would call the greatest champions of the past mediocre.
100%
Babe Ruth probably wouldn't be able to hit a fastball off of modern pitchers but many people still consider him the GOAT because of how dominant he was against his peers at the time. It's how I view Leffen vs. Ken as well. Current Leffen would obviously wipe the floor with 2005 Ken but Leffen also hasn't even come close to the accolades or level of dominance that Ken displayed against his peers at the time. Ken is without a doubt a top 5 player of all time, full stop.
Boi! You tweeted him about his watch! Like if he was disrespecting Jason's lineage.
Bro is so wrong about Ken. Ken had the longest and most dominant stretch of any SSBM player in history. He was the unrivaled best player in the world for YEARS. That alone makes him an undisputable top 5 player of all time, and is a legitimate argument for Ken being the GOAT.
No there isn't for him being the goat at all, top 5 sure.
How many times my guy use the word justify/justified
amazing
hugs saying the meta hasnt changed much?? agree with armada? 8:15
His list was better than the PG one tbh.
Summer Rankings don't count.
Leffen > Ken
Ken higher than Leffen is justified
Team Beer
Hugogogo
Hugs or plup as best samus?
It's morsecode
Plup.
It's plup. He has the most notable placings with samus.
Nice
What’s the post doc era
Don't know
I found out it’s the documentary
Thanks
Eh, valuing the new era over the old era isn't that great an idea. Yes the new players are more technical at the game, but they also have many more tools at their disposal. Back in 2004-10, they were innovating the gameplay through practice. To me it's like comparing Kobe to Michael Jordan, just apples and oranges. Different eras, and they work with what they have. Maybe you think the first era was easier to be better at, but you're probably just not giving yourself enough credit for the amount of time you put in practicing and playing other competitors, I don't think you put in that kind of time/effort now with the new tools or you would be in a similar ranking to where you were.
He ranked the greatest you ranked the best
Hugo's mom amiright? Lolololololololol
I really love that he put Leffen below Ken!
Melee's peak is 2009
I really like how you value the different eras. According to M2K's logic and parameters he set for himself, his list does make sense. But it definitely has some flaws. For example, not having Axe in your top 10 is mad disrespectful
It's not mad disrespectful to have Axe outside the top 10. It is not so abundantly clear he belongs there. It would be "mad disrespectful" to leave out players who obviously belong like Armada, Hbox, Mango, M2K, Leffen, PPMD, Plup. Anyone near the borderline is where opinion on what the list represents matters more and it is not "mad disrespectful" to exclude Axe. Competing for 8-10 spots could be Chudat, Zain, Ken, PC Chris, Azen, Wizzrobe. How is it abundantly obvious that he is better than at least 4 of those players (top 3/7)?
I want to see a list of greatest smashers of all time, factoring in all games
someone did this on reddit a little while ago, tho it was just some random person
Smh was gonna subscribe until you said Ken doesn’t deserve to be top 5. KEN IS THE GOAT
100% agree
Ken @ 11th. Bruh 😒
Character Goat 🔥🔥
WHO DISLIKED THIS VIDEO
I dont understand how the community praise Ken so much. Putting him alongside the gods, Leff and Zain is like comparing a medieval European knight vs Modern day weaponry.
And the actual era feels like a wasteland, where most of the gods are dead or lack power, and Hungrybox is the the lone ranger surviving trough it all. Meanwhile other factions, like the falcos and chill dudes.
I think that analogy is a little flawed. If we were doing it about just raw skill, you would just get a 2020 list. By your logic, IBDW and like fatgoku are better than Ken. An all-time list is about legacy, meta development, era-dominance, longevity, and more. It's more than just raw power
That's like saying Kevin Durant should be ranked higher than Michael Jordan.
@@killerdragon333
Ken legacy only lives within a small group of people.
Oldies that dont want accept that what he did was only good for the better players that came after him.
I recognize that melee wouldnt be the same without him and the era he reign over... but there are tons of players that have shaped the game resulting in a superior "legacy", "meta development", or "longevity"...
Echoing through the Floorz no it’s not like that at all don’t use basketball it’s not the same and you pick the wrong two guys try again plz😂
Don't wanna dumb this down too much but I think a lot of people deeply respect ken through talent because talent makes for a good role model for a lot of people still trying to get good. But like hugs said, ken was among the crew of players who really didn't want to take the step to embrace m2k's insane work ethic. It was that moment competitive melee stopped rewarding people who weren't willing to do their homework.