The Fate of the Sardaukar | Dune Lore
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2021
- A discussion of the role the Sardaukar have in the outworking of Frank Herbert’s Dune and what ultimately happens to these warriors as the saga unfolds. Spoiler warning as I will be discussing major events occurring throughout the first few books of the series. In a previous video I’ve discussed where these fighters come from and why they are so feared.
"Who Are The Sardaukar?": • Who Are The Sardaukar?...
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My favorite twist of Muad Dib's crysknife in the end of book 1 was when he assured the Emperor that Selusa Secundas would be made a garden world of beautiful and gentle things.
It reveals the genius of a practical death sentence combined with an apparent benevolence that simultaneously reveales to the emperor "I know exactly what you're up to." 😎
The world is built by killers, your grandfather was a killer, your father was a killer and your sons will be killers.
-The Hound.
Paul's way of indirectly telling the emperor that he would never be able to raise an army again. The Sardaukar were only possible because of the harsh climate there
@@jakeg3733or maybe he meant they will be turned into farmers instead of soldiers.
He didn’t do that tho
I vaguely remember in one of the first two books that Paul notes that the Sardaukar, though still tough, had relied too much on their fearsome reputation and allowed their training standards to grow lax. That said, in regards to Sardaukar and Fish Speakers, I believe Frank Herbert said it best, power attracts the corruptible. Guys and gals are both able to be brutal and abuse their power.
No, that was in the appendices
@Crystax reaper
They can and absolutly do breathe outside their planet
The sardaukar are freman
@Crystax reaper "Due to the harshness of Salusa Secundus, it became the Corrino prison planet. Those who broke imperial law and were judged guilty were sentenced to be imprisoned on the planet. Many in the empire suspected that the harshness of this world was responsible for breeding Sardaukar troops. This was a theory maintained heavily by Atreides generals, namely that the harsh environment of the planet was responsible for the development of a fierce, hardened people.
This theory was further strengthened by the discovery by the Atreides of the resilience and fighting abilities of the Fremen on Arrakis. However, prior to the time of Muad'Dib, very little was truly known of Salusa's climate. The origins of the Sardaukar and the source of their numbers remained only in speculation."
Originally it was the home planet of the Commino's until they ascended to the throne. Only Lynch adaptation had the Sardaukar breath something different than air.
Just like the German's SS
When you told about the fact, that the Fremen beat 5 carriers full of Sardaukar, it is important to note, that the Sardaukar only escaped because they used their jet thrusters as flamethrowers on that last carrier, which added insult to injury, because any Sardaukar would rather die in hand to hand combat than to escape like this.
I think it's sort of a failing of Dune's story telling. At once the fremen are hunted and besieged being picked apart one by one by powers that logically should be much beyond their capability... who were a fragmented and hunted peoples the harkonnens killed for sport... who also have the most highly elite fighting people in the known universe who constantly humiliate the most active fighting force in the galaxy who are exposed to far and away more combat against more resource rich foes in more varied conditions and who constantly win in those settings... and these galaxy spanning fighters get spanky spanked by children, women and the elderly and barely escape with a few men...
These things really don't go hand in hand... I like Dune a bunch. But it does often go to silly extremes to make the bad guys super bad and the good guys super good and then make the bad guys lose totally one sidedly.
@@Helpertin That isnt really how it is described in the books. The Fremen, pre-Paul, have the _potential_ to be a hard army, but while some of their individual fighters might be good, they are a rabble of disorganised tribes. Paul gives them both better individual training, but crucially, he moulds them from a group of tribes (who have just stopped killing each other due to Pardot and Liet) into an army.
At the timeline of the first Dune book the Sardaukar already on decadence were not so commited to the fight to death mistique, Paul and the freemen already had managed to capture a few alive before that event, the emperor however really got irked by it.
@@WebertHest Exactly, just like Gengis Khan managing to unite the scattered tribes on a world conquering army, the same nomadic life that made them so though on combat makes them very weak without a common leadership.
😂😂😂but that battle portrayal was so on point with what you relate... Because women & children were still fighting them into that disgraceful frenzy!
I must say, the way they were portrayed in the new DUNE movie was just…perfect! It was like FURY ROAD meets RAMMSTEIN with swords thrown in!
Yeah, and the fact that they used older men who looks actually as grim, grizzlied veterans rather than the poster boys of so many movie military units made it much realistic, the chant so similar to mongolian throat singing was also a brilliant touch.
@@cesaravegah3787 I pray to the Sky Father that we will get a 4 hour Director’s Cut! 🙏🏾
@@obsidian00 I would gladly pay decent money for that.
That remind me of Vikings for some reason
@@obsidian00 Finally watched the movie today, is very very good and so far the best Dune sources work I had seen, most of the cast is brilliant with the exception of the kid playing Paul who is just passable, Ciani on the other hand is great as well as the Lady Jessica and the Duke Leto, the visual efects, the photography and suits were almost perfect, very happy to go to a theatre for it and eager to go for the second part.
In the book and the tv series, the Sardaukar wore Harkonnen uniforms. This was done to keep Shaddams involvement secret.
Love the portrayal of fremen in Villeneuve's movie. Nearly every time they are seen outside combat they are in positions of resting , even when ambushing paul and during the subsequent negotiations. It makes them appear more intimidating as it shows how brutally efficient they are in order to survive in that planet. No waste of energy.
Little details like this make the story much more interesting.
It makes total sense. No chairs out there. Squatting or kneeling was normal etc
The Fish Speakers were also a highly religious army if I recall correctly, so that helped maintain their loyalty to the God Emperor. I also think they had other mechanisms built into their lineages, training, and psychology that supported that longstanding fidelity.
I think that in reality if the view of the Fish Speakers are reduced to "women soldiers are more faithful and less predatory" that is far too simplistic and is taking away the wrong message from the text.
Let us not forget the example of Siona Atreides, herself a part of the God Emperor's plan, who was DEAD-SET on rebellion and killing the Tyrant.
As a 40k player, I equate the Fish Speakers to the Sisters of Battle.
@@wulfbak 40k got some inspiration from dune. Imperium, God Emperor, the year 20k in dune.
@@Despotic_Waffle I play the Nuns, so sometimes I think of them as my Fish Speakers ;-)
Herbert also mentioned how, historically, males are inclined to rape (the predatory part), females are not (or less so at the least lol). That is accurate.
Well, but Leto *was* a tyrant! Even he admitted as much. Wanting to overthrow him was only natural.
In terms of the loyalty of a army of men or women, I found this was one of the few times Frank Herbert simply forgot humans by our nature seek out for more then we are given. Without a doubt the Fish speakers like any army of note would have turned against their leader, just look to the Bene Gesserit, In theory and on paper they are loyal to humankind and the empire, however in practice they are only loyal to themselves and they too were part of the formation of the fish speakers so... male female or otherwise human armies tend to see power and wish to grasp it with both hands.
That's where Dune was lending to reality about the circumstances of corruptability. It was best noted with the fishspeaker's story, on how the division concurs AND divides further...
Yes but I think Herbert meant that the fishspeaker wouldn’t go on brutal rampages like the fremen did during the jihad or the sardaukar during their progroms.
They would use more „civilised“ way to suppress the populace
@@yeneraras7403 actually he said because their women they won't, that is why they are all women and no men.
@@wicusjansenvanvuuren2614 It's also important to note that while the fish speakers were soldiers, their larger purpose was in letos grand breeding scheme rather than any sort of military campaign.
@@yeneraras7403It was the Fish Speakers who would later become the Honored Matres, though.
The Sardukar were always my favorite. Thank you, "Supreme Bashar Nerd Cookies"
The dress uniforms we see in Dune 2000 was a nice touch.
"Reap what you sow", so many mistakes in the past (present) result in a disturbingly unstable future
This is why Dune is a great set of books, movies, tv series... very human story
As I read the Dune saga again in anticipation of the movie. I am constantly amazed how the rise and fall of the military forces in the Empire goes hand in glove with the rise and fall of the different political powers. I like how you dealt with the history of the Sardaukar.
It is good to have another view of these forces!
I would like to see more on the Fish Speakers and their links to the Honored Matre.
Well that's pretty much how it has worked throughout history.
The army eventually becomes it's own political entity concerned more with accumilting patronage than its function of protecting the state. The government that supports the institution fails, and the institution of the army rises up against the government because soldiers kinda like being paid.
And, boom, your civilization comes crashing down.
This isn't always the case everywhere at every time, but it has happened often enough to exhibit some pretty familiar patterns...
@@tigerpjm The country of Somalia in the 90s in a nutshell. When the government fell, the Army went home and took all their "toys" with them. This set the stage for the rise of the Warlords. That was the single most dangerous place I ever served until the Insurgency in Iraq took off.
@@swaghauler8334
Respect brother!
I was in both places as well. Don't know about you but it's why I don't have much time for the modern political discourse which seems destined to lead us nowhere but those places.
Royal Australian Regiment
I was cool thinking of the Sardaukar as an ultimate elite force. I would almost be worth a prequel a few 100 years earlier to give them the room to reak havoc in more than one battle. But let that occur after at least three dune movies.
Dune 2021 was marvelous. The scene with the Atreides soldiers fighting the Harkonnens while outnumbered showed the formidable fighting force they were. Outnumbered but they stood a fair chance holding those stairs.
Untill the Sardaukar landed behind them and made a quick end to holding the stairs.
I love how the harkonnens had such little morale. While the sardaukar have unbreakable morale.
I kind of hated the execution of that scene, though, because it made the Atreidies look kinda dumb. They had an unbroken eyeline to the Sardukar as they went over the frontline, quite slowly as well. It implied that _none_ of the 20+ "highly trained" Atreidies had the wherewithal to keep an eye upwards _or_ behind them. Which maybe would make sense in a real-world scenario but in this setting we know that people can easily fly, climb and burrow to end up behind you.
Actually, the Atreidies just rushing to meet the landing ships like they were a bunch of hooligans wasn't much better either. Both scenes kind of imply that the Atredies had good individual fighters but no real tactics or command.
@@havcola6983
Well, if I recall the books correctly this is pretty much what went down. A superior fighting force attacked more or less by surprise and deceit so the chain of command largely imploded.
But yeah, I can see your point of view.
@@havcola6983 ALso Yueh disabled the communications in the movie which would've made an organized defense really difficult. Might have been different if not being betrayed from the inside.
I immediately thought of "the high ground" in that scene.
In the book, the Sardukar were in Harkonnen livery. That created more confusion in the battle and the Atredies were driven into the caves in the shield wall where they were buried alive using howitzers from Ix. The guns were destroyed afterwards to hide evidence of the Emperor's involvement including the livery. The fighting style of the Sardukar gave them away.
Again, it was expected the Emperor was suspected from the beginning. "When first avoiding a trap, be aware of its existence."
Another fantastic video. I love the way the fremen are portrayed in the book. Especially the part where the fremen dude walks in and spits on the table infront of duke leto, as a sign of respect (because of the value of water/fluids on arrakis) and they didnt understand at first but then duncan idaho proceeds to do the same thing and explain why. that part was hilarious😂
I have always questioned if Salusa Secundus would have created a disciplined force that the Sardaukar were said to be. Salusa Secundus was a prison planet. Anyone who survived that would be a self serving, and not a loyal warrior. Such people would be feared because of their cruelty and violence, not because of their tactical proficiency. Such Sardaukar would do fine until they came up against a professional force, like the Atreides army, or the Freemen. if corned by such a force, the Sardaukar would go as far as killing each other in an attempt to survive.
The prisoners and the Sardaukar are two separate things on Selusa Secundus. Any children born to prisoners are taken away at birth on the planet and babies who have been abandoned elsewhere in the galaxy are sometimes put onto Salusa Secundus if they are judged to be particularly robust. The Sardaukar children from what we know are trained brutally and ruthlessly - but also taught to work together to survive their missions. Albeit I agree with you that Herbert is wrong about the efficacy of harsh environments and training in creating actually good fighting forces. The Bedouin for example were fearsome but their predecessors were often no match for the Roman, then Byzantine, then Persian armies. Later when European armies got their hands on firepower they very rarely stood a chance.
That would´ve never created an effective military force(not that the fedaykin were out of Dune)
The difference is that the sardukar are not made up primarily of prisoners but of children born on the planet deemed to be somewhat capable. Then trained from childhood
The way I interpreted the text was that Leto II thought an all female army would be better at keeping cohesion and control over his empire. To be more effective enforcers of a static order. An all male army would be more suitable for conquest and projection of power. Of course those are very essentialist views of gender psychology, but I would totally buy into the idea that it's possibly going to work out like that with the intense training and conditioning those elite soldiers go through.
In my experience when you put 3 men together you get a brotherhood, when you put 3 women together you get a catfight. No way to know how that would translate when multiplied by thousands but would not be overly optimistic of that particular theory.
He mentioned it would be less rapey.
Leto 2 was wrong
I think the idea wasn't that women would be less abusive, or more cohesive, but they would follow Leto II words religiously. Men are generally more rebellious, they would rebel against his teachings, but women are more easily manipulated. I think this can be seen in real life as well. Women aren't manipulated per se, but most political leaders and leaders in general are men. He put them into power, to make things complacent and subjugated to HIS will, not the fish speakers. The fish speakers were HIM, he was their god.
@@MasterGhostf I think Leto literally references the rapist nature of male soldiers. "men will destroy, rape, and pillage" to justify his choice for the fish speakers. However in Dune fashion, his fish speakers became violent pillagers and rapists as the Honored Matres. Thousands of years later.
Sardukars meeting Fremen and feeling dazed was the best experience i had while reading the Dune book one.
It’s always interesting to see a Dune video from you. Keep up the great work!
I'm only vaguely recalling but I thought it was rather interesting when a Fremen remarked that the Sardaukar fought decent enough. This was after ambusing and destroying a small force (But before the weirding ways were taught) which I guess serves to highlight just how fearsome the Fremen were on their home turf, nevermind with super human martial arts. I find it a bit of a missed opportunity that the Sardaukar in later books never got some equivalent powerup.
Can't get said "Power up" if no one trains them for it. Leto made sure they were blocked from such.
They sort of did...or at least one of them did. Much later on (3,000+ years), the Fremen kind of deteriorate, much like the Sardaukar did. A bashar of the Sardaukar, Miles Teg, who works for a weakened Bene Gesserit reaches the peak of human conditioning. He moves so fast he literally can't be seen by the human eye or captured on camera. This only happens very briefly but it shows just how badass a Sardaukar can be if they were trained and bred better.
@@PenTheMighty Teg wasn't Sardaudar, he was however a descendant of Leto II and a product of the Bene Gesserit's breeding program similar to Paul. Hence his having similar abilities.
@@Deepingmind You're right, I thought the title of bashar was Sardaukar. I want to reread all the books again...
@@PenTheMighty The titles are a bit confusing, the BG did adopt the titles of the Sardukar which makes the confusion totally understandable. I'm sure on your next read through you'll find something that I've missed in the oceans of details.
Throughout history elite military forces are diminished over time.
The Roman legions in the first part of the Roman Empire was a force that would make all other militaries tremble, in the later half of the Roman Empire the Roman legions looked more like the forces they were fighting than they did their ancestors.
This has transpired in many histories.
India had military forces that were terrible to fight against but time, corruption and ill funding led those forces to be weakened.
Frank Herbert was just using history as a template, and rightly so.
Pandemics etc. Contribute to the fall of elite forces.
The real reason for tge decline of the roman military was demographics. By the latter half of the roman empire, there are more than 3 million inhabitants in rome yet 85 percent of it are slaves. Birth rates plummeted because of slavery and cheap labor.
It's not that they diminish. Indeed they often grow in effectiveness over time. What happens is the opposition catch up and surpass them. Excellence in anything only improves over time, it's just that you aren't up against monkeys or lesser people. We are all the same, and can be trained and learn just the same. Flags don't mean s**t.
@@JamesLaserpimpWalsh not really over the length of time we are talking about.
The Roman Legions depicted in the movie Gladiator were typical of only the first few centuries of the empire, all equally equipped, trained and disciplined.
The last 1200 years of the Empire only the dress guardians and parade troops were anything near that level of troops.
The legions of the last 2/3rds of the Roman Empire looked more like the bedraggled enemies that the bronze breast plated, sandal wearing, toga gods Hollyweird wants you to think about. The
Rome was famous for absorbing cultural heritage, styles, religious, fashion, and people that the empire had annexed into the empire, those influences changed the very nature of Rome, in every way.
Some people don’t like to remember that Rome had slaves, lots of the empires subjects were slaves, in some areas there were more slaves than free citizens.
The political system of Rome was prone to human failure and corruption just like we are witnessing today, and the bean counting sessions in Rome were famously written about. The Roman Senate fretted about spending money on the military, and a few decades of peaceful chaos will get a weaker and weaker military.
@@ianstradian Rome didn't fall because it's military was weak, the reasons for the fall of the west are too many to list here, and are you really referring to Gladiator as a historical source? The equipment in that movie is horrible, so I certainly wouldn't.
Roman military reforms have always been driven by necessity, not by incompetence, they didn't degrade over time they *evolved* very important distinction. The best example of this is cavalry, you put late Roman cavalry against principate cavalry and the late Roman cavalry wins every time, better doctrine, better organization, better variety of troops including cavalry that can both outskirmish the lights and outperform the heavies.
Then there's the fact that while the western half of the Empire fell, it's eastern half weathered the storm and survived a period that saw most of the Mediterranean in constant seemingly endless decline, but sure go off.
As always, an interesting and thought-provoking video-in the case, one that was also interesting in terms of word-choice. I actually had to look up the word, “outworking.”
One thing that your video on the Sardaukar brings to mind are the parallels between Herbert’s sci-fi/fantasy soldiers and the historical armies of the Turkish rulers, the Janissaries.
There seems to be something of a discomfort in the Christian west with looking too closely at the power of Muslim societies and the threat they once posed to Christian Europe after the fall of Constantinople and the rise of the Ottoman Empire.
That particular area of history is generally not emphasized here which, I think, allowed Herbert to adapt the historical phenomena that created the Janissaries to Dune and its sequels. The parallels are there.
In Dune, the Sardaukar are fanatical soldiers who are toughened in the harsh environment of what the universe thinks of as a prison planet, a hell-world, where they are indoctrinated with a fanatical loyalty to the emperor they serve as a deadly professional army that gives the emperor an elite force so powerful that they counterbalance the military power of even a coalition of the forces of several great houses securing the emperor in his power.
Similarly to the Sardaukar, the Jannisaries were elite soldiers, who, instead of being raised on a prison planet, were culled as boys from the Ottoman Empire’s Christian subjects, circumcised, converted to Islam, and raised under conditions of harsh military discipline with measures taken to instill loyalty to the Sultan in them including in the early years of their history, having the Sultan himself make an appearance in a Janissary uniform and taking his pay like a common trooper.
These and more similarities are part of the first novel and together they attest to the Erudition that Herbert put into the novel that gave it its richness and power.
I would prefer a direct translation of the book; however, we have already bought tickets for the opening (Thursday night IMAX showing) with great anticipation in seeing this version.
Another excellent video!! I greatly enjoyed this video, I’m planning on having a very nerdy day!!! LOLOLOL
Great video! The captions are always appreciated.
If I remember correctly, the first Sardaukar were, more or less, native to SS, where the environment killef 4 out 7 children. After, House Corrino rose to power, the Sardaukar were made up of prisoners who survived the environment of SS. It was during the first Dune novel that the Sardaukar started to become soft.
They were already growing weaker before the events or Dune took place . Leto spoke about it when he was explaining their origin to Paul . They still weren't anything near what you would refer to as soft. The sardaukar that Paul & his fremen square off with aren't the fanatics that won House Corrino the empire but they're still a ruthless & dedicated fighting force of sophisticated savages that still had enough juice to scare the shit out of the majority of the landstraad.
Did Frank Herbert ever show the Sardaukar at their best in Dune? We're told as readers they're a fearsome force, yet we don't really see a good demonstration before they're defeated by Paul and the Fremen.
layers upon layers of storytelling magic
What we see in the books/films is the Sardaukar who are past their prime. They're still fearsome fighters, but their legend has exceeded their actual capabilities, and they haven't really modernized to keep pace with the ever-evolving art of warfare. When they come up against Atreides or Fremen troops who are at the cutting edge of doctrine/tactics/training they're revealed as no longer being the elite super-soldiers they (and nearly everyone else) though they were.
There's historical justification for this sort of situation. Under Frederick the Great (King of Prussia, 1740-1786) the Prussian army gained a reputation of being nearly unbeatable - they were, by far, the most feared soldiers in Europe. When revolutionary France went to war with Prussia in 1806, most military "experts" were absolutely confident that the Prussians could easily handle a French revolutionary rabble led by non-aristocratic officers. However, in the actual campaign of 1806 the opposite occurred and the vaunted Prussian army crumbled at the Battle of Jena-Auerstadt. Almost predictably, the self-appointed "experts" (mostly aristocrats who couldn't see past their own noses) were wrong. The situation with the Sardaukar being over-rated is kind of similar.
We never get a proper fight with the Sardaukar, only them getting jumped. Put a Fremen and a Sardaukar in a box and I’d bet on the Sardaukar 9/10 of the time.
I really like your videos, they are interesting, well done and well edited. Congratulations for your work.
It was a normal day until Elaine dropped a new video. Now my day just got Nerdy. Thanks for the Cookies Elaine :P
9 more days until it shows in the U.S.! im stoked! :D love this channel by the way. great voice, great subject matter.
Love the channel,can't get enough.
Thank you again, Ms Nerd Cookies.
(The Sardaukar would've been in my own "Ways Arrakis can kill you" list, while knowing they aren't there normally. When they're sent to Arrakis, they _are_ on the list unless you're Fremen.)
Who else is excited the greatest scifi novel is coming to the big screen?
That would be me
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Gonna watch it in dolby blown out of my mind with a big slushie. This 30 year old is ready.
I'm skeptical, they already made a black woman Lyet Kynes, which hurts the story by taking away something Paul and his wife bond over. Worried SJW BS is gonna be more important than telling a good story
@@AngryAsian69 valid concerns.
Love these videos I’m new too the dune franchise half way through the first book after watching the movie can’t wait for the sequel and see how far it goes following the books
One imagines at that point in History, such things as "Gender-based roles" were almost, if not completely interchangeable. I seem to recall a Duncan Ghola being utterly appalled by the many cases of the Fish Speakers engaging in quote "Deviant practices." (I.E. he was practically homophobic - certainly when he witnessed the Fish Speakers smooching - no telling how'd he'd have reacted if he'd seen them REALLY get busy!)
But I suspect, like MOST institutions, it inevitably grows old, and corrupt. Soon after..? regardless of gender, one seeks out power merely for power's sake. And from there..? it's ALL downhill! It happend to the Sardaukar. It happened to the Fremen. "Why WOULDN'T it happen to The Fish Speakers..?" is the question. Answer..? It did. (and after the scattering, we got the Honored Matres - who make ALL the aforementioned look tame!)
Another winner! Thanks again!
In terms of fighting force. I do not think there is as much of a difference between the two that Frank Herbert envisioned. I remember him talking about it during his God Emporer book tour. I think the idea is intriguing but ultimately an elite force is old on the mythology of the side they are on.
Live by the sword, die by the sword ... and leadership matters, it matters tremendously!
I was awed by these guys and they only show up in person a few times. Their history and culture and barbarism... fascinating.
I hope the upcoming film depicts the Sardaukar with some depth as opposed to a bunch of mindless thugs. This will make them much more interesting and believable. The guys from the Lynch film looked like they showed up to clean up a chemical spill and the guys from the mini series looked like a bunch of extras from the renaissance festival. Well done as always nerd cookie lady 👍👍
I loved that Salusa Secundus (homeworld of the Sardaukar), inspired the nuclear wasteland of Baal Secundus (homeworld of the Blood Angels homeworld from Warhammer 40K).
it just coincidence, i mean the navigators, space marines doctrine and god-emperor of mankind is foremost gameworkshop warhammer 40k creative works
game workshop didnt blantantly rip off dune or you will face our lawyers if you say that..
When you get right down to it, the only things that HAVEN'T been ripped from Dune are the Bene's, Mentats, Suk, and Sword Masters.
@@Deridus I mean the Fallout games' drug Ment-ats (which increases your intelligence but causes addiction), is a direct reference to the psychic dudes.
@@fernandozavaletabustos205 Granted for the reference, but the idea behind it hasn't. Bonus question: Which flavor?
I just started watching your take on the vast Dune lore and I love it keep up the excellent work
Thanks elaine and nick. Somehow i missed this one till now ( no notification) odd
Awesome video...btw, what do you think about the Brian Herbert books?
a great overview of these eventually bedraggled troops
The Sardaukar reminds me of the original Star Trek’s Klingons then Deep Space Nine’s Jem’Hadars. Both are billed as unstoppable ferocious killers until they have to show them in battle. That’s when they are reduced to human level strengrh and fierceness and easily beaten. Or maybe it’s actually the other way around where Star Trek borrowed from Dune.
hey I know the Sardauar are highly trained from infancy but you think the Sardaukar might also be Genetically enhanced case in the 1984 Dune film when the Harkonnens return to Arrakis one of them seems to grab an Atreides solider and throws him as easily as an empty cardboard box!
So many well spoken and knowledgeable people.
Excellent video! Do you have a Nerd Cookies recipe (hopefully gluten free)?
The Sardaukar were a product of their planet and history. The problem Emperor Shaddam faced was that the Sardaukar where allready entrenched and staunch believers in their own might by the time Paul Atreides led his revolt on Arrakis.
I feel that the Sardaukar were in a weakend state mentally, after years of living on their reputation as the empire's elite.
Despite knowing the Fremen were first rate survivalists and almost perfect warriors the Sardaukar did not put their full weight behind putting down the revolt. This coupled with a relative lack of almost constant combat against exterior forces, as none dared face them in open combat. Made the Imperial Sardaukar a weaker force then their predeseccors would have been.
A good scene explaining this is when they just walked away after slaughtering the Atreides soldiers on the stairs. Anny veteran warrior will tell you keeping your enemy on the back foot is key. Walking from one place to another as if you are invincible displays a great amount of hubris. The Arrakeen desert, does not allow for hubris, explaining as to why the Fremen were the equals of the Sardaukar. Especially after being taught a method of fighting that surpassed Sardaukar swordsmanship.
Given those facts. I dare say this : The Sardaukar in the late Corrino period of rule were not as eager, hardened or downright savage and willing to get to grips with their foe as their ancestors would have been. They believed in their own myth, that nothing or no one could beat them. Their reputation preceding them, and they counted on this to weaken the opposition.
If Paul and the Fremen were facing early Imperial Sardaukar, who's reputation was in its infancy, those Sardaukar having to fight, slay, and slaughter to overcome anny opposition to prove the rumors of these fanatical zealous warriors of Selusa Secundus was in every word as true as the keen edge of their blades. They would be in for the fight of their lives, a real, real struggle against warriors who would bay for your blood, their skill, and experience carving their path and legend forward one dead Fremen at the time.
They would, probably even with the weirding way, fight the Fremen on equal terms, butchering eachother to mutual annahilation.
That the movie portays these facts so well speaks volumes on how great this movie will age.
I imagine any survivors went into hiding or killed themselves like samurai would who failed their fuedal lord. All they knew was fear and violence so they weren't the most stable men in the galaxy. They had no choice growing up it was do or die so some may've even fled to start their own lives. As soon as Shaddam was defeated that was the killing blow to their reputation and they became a footnote in history.
Can't wait for the 22nd! im soo stoked for it! i just re-watched the OG movie and then the Sci-fi mini series!
Legit pretty good stuff, all. I never got around to watching the Sci-Fy channel's series, but that was pretty good when viewing it the other week. It is interesting to see how each adapted the source material a bit differently, emphasizing different aspects.
@@ryanotte6737 for sure! I love both because ive read and re read the series since i was 15 but this ver is the most book accurate ver ive seen! it should have been a 3 hour movie
I always wondered: In the Duniverse, a person who wears a shield and is shot at by a Lasgun, is killed, but so is the person who fired the Lasgun.
Obviously nobody would fire a Lasgun on a shielded person, because that would mean certain death for that person who fires the gun.
But, we have suicide terrorist bombers etc., after Herberts novels were written.
I am wondering why we don´t have a "suicidal" Lasgunner. One of these could take out even the most formidable HTH opponent, like a swordmaster Duncan Idaho, if he wears a shield. Not much several decades worth of hand to hand combat training necessary to take him out...
Quite correct. And if you had machines that just auto locked onto shields you could kill tons of them with no loss of life on your side, and without breaking the anti machine intelligence laws. It’s a cool place, but like so many sci if worlds, it’s best not to scratch too deeply under the skin.
@@defenstrator4660 You are quite correct, you wouldn´t even need a suicide lasgunner.
This is obviously true...but my recollection (and I haven't read the book for at least 10 years) was that firing a lasgun at a shield causes some catastrophic effect like a miniature nuke or something. So yes, as a suicide attack it would be immense, but as with most suicide attacks, ultimately futile, but scaled up in magnitude. Achieving your singular aim but also losing at the same time is a zero-sum game. Pyrrhic victory. Without wishing to get into the logical stupidity of suicide attacks, here we go anyway: Assuming you think your violent action in battle on this plane of existence will gain you a position on another plane of existence, you're trying to influence something on one plane that you will no longer have anything to do with and that is irrelevant to you. Two real hypotheticals (a contradiction in terms!): Say you killed several thousand people in your suicide attack. That changed global policy against you, defeating your interests. It made people racist against people who looked like you. So....success? No, not really. Also, you're dead. The other is you kill a small number of people, say 20 (but this impacts on their families so 20x50), the number's not politically significant so ultimately no-one cares and you've achieved nothing. Plus, you're dead. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure no-one has ever won a war by dying.
The Lasgun vs shield effect can be random. It might just kill the target and the shooter, but it can also explode like a atomic bomb taking out a whole city. If a house was using a suicide tactic to recreate atomics level attacks they would probably be treated like they were using atomics itself and be destroyed by all the other houses.
IIRC that was always a concern. Any time they mentioned lasguns in the first two books they always made casual mention of the explosive interaction. I think there was a scene in Dune Messiah where someone noted that all it would take is one of Paul's bodyguards (who were equipped with lasguns) to fire at Paul (who was always wearing a fully powered shield) to end his reign. The fact that Paul didn't seem to care signified how much faith he had in his Fremen and conversely, how much faith his Fremen had in him.
Sardaukar:- "We are the most elite, brutal, fanatical fighting force in the Imperium!!"🤺
Fremen:- "Yawn!"🥱👊🏽💥😵
Dune Universe Military Tier: Machine Empire > Honored Matres > Fish Speakers > Fremen Fedaykin Death Commandos / Sardaukar (at their peak) > Sardaukar (era of Shaddam Corrino IV)
Individually, the Bene Gesserit using Prana-bindu and voice techiques would best Fedaykin but not Fish Speakers. Ginaz Swordmasters (Duncan Idaho was a Swordmaster)
could also best Fedaykin and lower level Sisters or Acolytes using Prana-bindu. However, the Fish Speakers were no ordinary humans, they were genetically enhanced women through a selective breeding program. Ultimately, the Honored Matres took this to the logical end utilizing Tleilaxu genetic engineering for further enhancements and to create neural ganglions to enhance speed and autonomic reflexes. Fish Speakers were significantly stronger, faster, and durable than Fremen and Sardaukar. They also utilized special martial arts which used Prana-bindu and other techniques the God Emperor revealed to them using his prescience. Elite Fish Speakers served as the God Emperor's Praetorian Guard. During the time of the God Emperor Leto II, the Bene Gesserit controlled many worlds and had a formidable military, but were no match for the Fish Speakers.
By the time of the God Emperor, Duncan Idaho gholas of one of the greatest Ginaz swordmasters, besting Sardaukar, was considered an "old stock" human as an elderly Moneo could easily best him physically. Nevermind, that a Fish Speaker Praetorian Guard would beat the crap out of a peak Duncan Idaho ghola with her pinky. This gives you an idea how superior humans were in the time of the God Emperor compared with the best during the time of Paul Atreides, thousands of years earlier. If this were an RPG, this would be equivalent to a significant level up with a new baseline far above the past normal. In the time of the God Emperor because of this new baseline for humanity (higher base stats: strength, IQ, etc), even a lowly accountant or a middle-schooler could have defeated Fremen and Sardaukar of the olden days.
Great video! Please consider covering Farscape! 🙂
The funny thing is, it all came down to knife fights. The particular circumstances of Arrakis coincided with the shield dynamics of the larger imperium, allowing the particular style of fighting the Fremen engaged in, to be highly effective. If the Sardaukar had shown up with hella maula pistols, they would have mowed down the Fremen. Wild.
The genders aren't so different that one might be considered more or less loyal than another. History is full of betrayals that know no such boundaries.
I'm curious to learn about a failed revolt Duncan Idaho led. The one in which Duncan rallied Sardaukar against the God Emperor. I don't seem to remember any details about it. Was it described in the original 6 books?
Considering that the Fish Speakers went on to become the Honored Matres it is safe to argue that they were *not* more inclined to benevolence than men. If anything, they became even more brutal than the old Imperium had been.
Matres were nearly 100% tleilaxu females , they just obtained some fish speaker and bene gesserit practices
That's they were so brutal
@@cedriceric9730 - Where did you get that percentage from? And how do you think that lobotomized Axotl Tanks got liberated? In the Old Imperium, the Tleilaxu were still using them when the Honored Matres returned from the Scattering, and the Bene Gesserit had begun using them as well after figuring out what they really were.
Fish Speakers and rogue Bene Gesserit liberated the Axotl Tanks from Tleilaxu in the Scattering. But they did *not* make up the majority of Honored Matres by any means. Plus, the Matres continued recruiting genetically-promising females from Scattering colonies.
You have a great voice (your videos are also cool content).
It's such a creepy, cool voice; can you imagine this voice saying, ""Your life must now be terminated,"?
You'd make a great evil AI voice.
I don't agree with Leto's supposition - I believe that social factors and community structures are more important than gender. Even if he had some points correct, it would only be a set of tendencies, not a reliable attribute. Given the correct social situations, an all-female army would be just as likely to turn against the overall public, and an all-male one could be and remain entirely loyal.
Much to ponder here.
in a sense, Dune predicted Muammar Ghaddfis all female body guards. Whether or not Ghaddafi was having sex with them or not is unknown. However, in the real world that all female body guard failed to save Ghaddafi from death. Loyalty is not a female or male quality. it is a condition of love but can be lost or broken via abuse.
For some reason I really want to pronounce it 'sauerkraut'.
Love this voice!
It's worth remembering that the philosophical and practical discussions on whether an all-female fighting force would serve the needs of Leto II better were informed by, in terms of the story itself, an additional 20,000 years of human history that we the audience in the current era are not privy to. For that reason, I can make allowances for the reasonings given in the books as being perspectives that are plausible. After all, I suspect thinkers living 3000 years ago (or even just 500 years) would struggle to understand how our current societies function with social structures and gender roles in some cases so greatly different from theirs. That is the case with us, trying to imagine the needs and capabilities of individuals and societies 200 centuries from now.
Feyd rautha-Harkoanen is my favorite character. I wish he'd had more time to shine in the book.
Well, at least you get to see Sting greased up and shining as Feyd stepping out of that steam shower in the 80's Lynch movie. 😂
@@ryanotte6737 That was actually not a displeasing view, even if he did have a bit of an insane gleam in his eyes. It's obvious that Sting had fun playing that part. It's a shame that after he taught Patrick Stewart to play the baliset, that scene was cut.
What is the picture in the thumbnail? Where can I find it?
The Ottoman Empire's Jannisaries could kick the Imperial Sardaurkars butts.
you'd think that armor would protect them from edged weapons.
I'm imagining all the sardaukar talking like the narrator and I can't help but laugh
I wonder who would win in a theoretical battle between the Sardaukar and Halo's Spartans? I would've said Sardaukar vs Stormtroopers, but there's no contest on that one.
Dunes shield technology would render any ranged weapons useless for the Spartans. Whilst the sardauker could use laser weapons freely.
@@NL0Gwenster I believe Spartans have shields too, and combat knives (at least, Noble Team did), but I see your point.
WH40,000 Space Marines vs the Sardaukar?
@@Kulayyu Space Marines.
No contest.
@@Kulayyu As if there were ever any doubt. Astartes.
You should do a review over the Heavy Metal Magazine!!
The Sardaukar genetics were passed onto the female Fish Speakers.
U going to vlog a trip to the movies for us
Now when I hear Sardaukar I all I think of now is Based Mongolian Throat Singing followed by a beautiful slaughter of enemies of the Emepror.
Certainly there r differences. Tons of them. Fascinating
Does anyone know in which book they talk about Duncan Idaho leading the remnants of the saurdakaur? I'm on to heretics of dune and I still haven't seen any reference to it.
Some people confuse the nuDune books with actual canon.
Im new to this.
When Leto died in arrakis, was his home planet also attacked or destroyed?
No. The Fenrings were given Caladan to take care of, and they would have been idiots not to do a good job of it. Caladan came through fine, and at the end of Dune Jessica happily scampered back to it with Gurney, abandoning Paul and her 4-year-old daughter to run the empire and Paul's new religion. Gurney was made governor of Caladan, so he and Jessica had a cozy setup there until the Sisterhood wanted Jessica to return to Arrakis to test the Atreides twins to see if they were human or abomination.
I've always wondered about the apparently fanatical loyalty which the Sardauker had for an emperor who condemned them to a lifetime of hardship, subservience and bloodshed. When compared to the legions of ancient Rome the difference is quite stark. Certainly, after the end of the Antonines, the legions of Rome were anything but loyal and would happily overthrow an emperor if they thought any usurper would be beneficial to them. This total lack of loyalty was a major reason for the decline of the Roman empire.
Okay but why at the beginning of dune 2021 there's a quote in sardukar?
7:34, hehe, that was the plan all along.
I'm kind of surprised that there wasn't more of an eye kept on Arrakis by the other great houses.
The guild controlled inter space travel so the other houses had no way to know what was going on over there unless the empower let them know
Any house that would have Arrakis as their fief would grow extremely strong and so it would raise to the top of every houses "list of enemies". So no need to keep an eye as they are the enemy anyway.
Keep in mind that the Fremen bribed the Guild to keep spy satellites out of the skies, so only the current fief holder of Arrakis would have opportunity to observe them in the deep desert and none ever seemed interested.
@@imasspeons I see. Interesting. Makes sense.
Between the potential diplomatic faux pas of being found out for spying and the Fremen bribing the Guild into keeping the satelites out of their skies, the only info you could reasonably expect to get our of Arakis would have been out of Arakeen and Carthag, and most of that would have been purely economic, that is, readilly available to anyone who wanted a piece of the profits.
I can’t wait for Denis Villeneuve Dune. I hope it will be EPIC!
Well done !! Sardaukar Rising!!
A lesson from Dune: hardship breeds hard people.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.
@@-.Horus.7 ah yes, the cycle of civilization. Guess where we're at on that cycle.
@@odinforce2504 were pretty much fucked
@@vendora1 only if you're just now noticing.
Denis' Dune was amazing and i know his interest goes only to Dune Messiah but im curious if Jason's Duncan could be a habitual character similar to Daniel in Harry potter
I wonder why Baron Harkonnen didn’t realize that the Emperor was using him to eliminate a threat to the throne
"Every care must be taken that our auxiliaries, being stronger than our citizens, may not grow too much for them and become savage beasts". Plato.
Historically speaking, the Sardaukar Legions were a mix of Spartans and Roman Legions (late Republic-early Empire). The fate of the Spartans after their victory over Athens in the Peloponnesian War led to corruption (wealth, pleasure) which weakened their training, leading to their downfall.
The Spartans were decimated in the Theban-Spartan war against superior tactics and by the Macedonians at the Battle of Megalopolis. However, the Macedonians noted that the Spartans were the toughest opponents they had ever fought. The Macedonians would be defeated by Roman Legions in the Macedonian Wars. Unlike the late-Macedonians who were defeated by Romans, Alexander the Great did not rely on just a phalanx, but a combined arms force utilizing hammer-anvil tactics, using a heavy phalanx (Macedonians), medium phalanx (Greeks), light infantry, medium infantry, slingers, archers, and his elite Companion Cavalry. Had Alexander been magically transported across time to the Macedonian Wars, he would have utterly crushed the Romans.
Interesting speculation, as most alternatives history that is imposible to prove, I disagree however, at the time macedonians had already fallen on decadence while romans had a superb army backed by a powerful economy, doubt that Alexander himself would had been able to turn then tide of history, just like Napoleon, the greatest strategist of humanity if not sick could had been able to win on Waterloo and still loose the war on the next months, oh well, as I said, interesting speculation.
No on Ottoman Janissaries
Not too sure about THAT..! Since we're in the realms of "What If..?" I do wonder, how Alexander would fare against a competent Roman General; Specifically, Suetonius Paulinus. (A general who, by all accounts was both a *VERY* strict disciplinarian w/his troops, and so brutal that even the Emperor Nero was taken aback!) Outnumbered 10 to 1, he managed to BUTCHER Boudicca's forces, w/minimal loses on his end. Tactically speaking..? I'm not at all convinced Alexander would do well, let alone survive against Suetonius. (and he's not even one of the "Legendary" Generals of Rome!)
Common Fremin diced up quite afew Sardaukar before falling.
If everyone knows that a full blow with sword or anything else, will be blocked by the shield, wouldn't the training be different as to not waste blows and energy on something that is going to be blocked anyway?
Not sure what your point is. Did you read the books or watch the movie? Melee combat in the Dune universe assumes the common use of personal shields, and training (shown in both the books and the movie) focuses on learning to attack in a manner slow enough to avoid deflection by the shields while still being lethal. The shields block fast movements only, which is what makes ranged projectiles and fast strikes all but useless against them. Slow blows, and projectiles that are designed to slow down to penetrate the shields can still get through.
Every Warrior faction has their rise to legendary status but they all end eventually and are remembered only in history lessons. It is the fate of all Warriors.
Dune Saga feels like reading Ancient history written in the Far Future. Historical events became legends, legends became myths.
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I envisioned Sardaukar kinda like Necromongers:
The aesthetic of their armor resemble something like ”Blue-Gold” Armor of Maximilian II.
Showing of their presence to the known universe. They are the royal warriors of The Emperor.
Possess the finest armor and weapons in the imperium.
Their fearsome appearance signals their adversaries to know: To oppose the Sardaukar means dooming your entire House!
Their majestic intimidation worked for so long until the Fremen showed up!
The new movie’s portrayal off Sardaukar was a bit of letdown for me…(I haven’t watched the film yet.)
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Please tell us more about the Honored Matres.
"Future History" is a recognized subgenre of science fiction. If memory serves, it was coined by Robert Heinlein when he started linking up his short stories and Lazarus Long novels into a vast, sprawling 'future history' that spanned millennia and timelines.
Dat Melange is like total fresh bruv!
That whole male and female idea with warriors is very interesting and it reminds me of the Sisters of Battle and the Space Marines where you can see that the sisters have an unbreakable loyalty to their God Emperor and Ecclesiarchy whereas the Space Marines sometimes turn to chaos, sometimes kill humans for the sake of it and sometimes fight other space marines.
So yeah I’m inclined to agree with FH but I don’t think this could truly be proven unless we perform an experiment on this in the real world (and I feel like at this period of time women would have less loyalty than men unless their leader was a woman)
I really need to fire up my forge and try to make a Sardaukar sword and Atreidies shortsword.
I have little historical data regarding female dominated military forces, but armies and organizations composed entirely of men have routinely sought after military conquests just to prove their worth, even when such endeavors would result in a negative outcome situation.
As I remember at the time when the Atredies vs Harkonen events happened on Dune Sardaukars already went on the downside stage where they not really had any significant battle experiences for the lack of any resistance and they didn't held their training standards that tight too. They just didn't needed it. I think in one of the future vision they told things about the Fedaykins will getting weaker as they found more peace and another power will raise from the deep.
The parts with the Fish Speakers come always felt like a lack of idea turn into a male fantasy with undefeatable female warriors marching and cheering for the leader... As much as I like dune this always felt silly.
I remember, I think from “ God Emperor of Dune”, that another point against a male army was its tendency for rape, which the all female Fish Speaker army didn’t have.
@Major Problems Instead of paying a shrink to make him less crazy he got paid by publishing his crazy ideas. He made the right decision!
I thought the fish speakers kinda raped the men they conquered to soothe them lol
@@TinMan445 - lol. I don’t remember that, but the Honored Matres did something like that to control the men. I say it was a win-win.
Fish speakers become the honored matres they literally sexually enslave men to their wills and destroy the bene tleilax for usimg women as breeding stumps for centuries those creepy little gnomes deserved it too. Though destroying Dune was a major over reaction their pretty angry women lol
@@TinMan445 hey would work for me lol
Nice