The imperial sardaukar reminded me of the ottoman janissaries in that they were once the most powerful and feared force in their respective empires but over the centuries became more and more concerned with their own power until they became a mere shadow of their former selves and were overthrown by a far more powerful force and done away with by the ruler of the empire
Their belief that they were so much better than any opponent was founded in reality. For as long as anyone could remember, they WERE that much better. But martial arts are perishable. If they don't fight the very best, even elite warriors can get soft. It certainly happened with the Janissaries. Your comparison is even better when comparing how the Janissaries were important in domestic politics. No one dared move against the Sultan because his troops were loyal only to him. A rare thing in feudal societies. That is a main reason I love the Dune books so much. Different planet, different age, different society even. But people are still people. And they act like us humans have acted for all of history.
@@treydixon5399 To add on that, not even the Sultan was spared from their influence. Many sultans tried to move against the Janissaries to modernize the army. Modernization of course meant the Janissaries would lose power. Let's say, it didn't go down very well for the sultans. At that point they were a force against the development of the empire. It took a f-ing SECOND ARMY to get the Janissaries out of the way, which itself was a gruesome affair.
You've got something there. Besides this, the Janissaries had close ties with the Bektaşi dervish order, with each janissary having a dervish 'godfather-like' figure who would bless him upon completion of training. The Janissary headdress was said to be modelled after Haci (Hadji) Bektaş's sleeve, as he had laid it on the heads of the first Janissaries to bless them. So there was a religious element to this martial mystique, and, interestingly enough, from an esoteric offshoot of Islam organised in confidential fraternities.
yeah, there are lots of pretty clear references to the Ottoman Empire in the first trilogy. There are also plenty of Lawrence of Arabia with Paul Attended, with the Fremen taking the role of the Arab tribes.
As a kid i thought the Dune84 Sardaukar were quite scary but the new ones in Dune21 are absolutely terrifying but the book versions are the most brutal ones.
@@marcosrotllan Nonsense. Just buy a videogame or read a book. I got started reading Lexicanum articles between session of Dark Heresy, 100% pirated lol. Fell in love with the Mechanicum after making a tech priest Celerii with an anti-grav jump pack, power axe and laser Gatling gun and an infrasound generator in his vocabulator so he was great with intimidate and could make chaff run in terror when he landed on and crushed one of them. Asked the GM for his bionic legs to fluff as digitigrade legs with claw feet and he surprised me with a pic of my guy landing on one chaos guardsman, grabbing another with his foot, and cleaving 2 more with his axe a la General Grievous from Tartakovosky's The Clone Wars. Only thing I bought was a penny to mark my character's position on my friend's dry erase board and chipped in for paper and snacks.
Another contributing factor to their defeat at the hands of the Fremen is the matter of personal shields. The technology is ubiquitous across the universe, but almost never seen on Arrakis due to it's interaction with the sand worms. As a result, the Sardaukar are trained shield fighters (slow attack, fast defense) while the Fremen are experienced in fighting without that technology and the benefits and drawbacks it brings. A fight between the two could very well be settled simply by the use of a personal shield. It is fortunate, then, that the battle that put Muad'dib on the golden lion throne was fought on Arrakis where fighting without shields was all but necessary.
Both the sardukar and the fremen, we're both hardened by the harsh conditions of their planets. The advantage the fremen had besides fighting on their home court was they were trained by Paul in the weirding ways and they were enhanced by the spice
Thank you, I was really irked the novel didn't seemed to directly address it, but if even Paul lost the chance at two or three killing blows, it mean it would be a huge disadvantage for the Sardaukars as well. Given how powerful shields are, I think the Fremen would have lost if they faced Sardaukars equipped with them (save for Paul and Jessica managing to retrain them). Losses wise, the Harkonned did better at killing the Fremen because they likely lost hope for close combat and just blasted at them, while the Sardaukars would be too proud of their skills to concede the superiority.
Early in the first Dune book, during the meeting in the airfield tower, the Atriedes were able to divine that the Harkonnen were going to attack and that they would be aided by the Emperor and his Sardaukar. One of the reasons given is they feared an alliance between the Atreides and the Fremen. Given the Duke's charisma, fairness, and integrity he's gained loyalty and love from the people under his command and from people all over the galaxy, Great and Lesser Houses in the Imperium, which would make an Atreides Fremen alliance likely. The Emperor also knew that the Fremen would be, or become, a rival to the fighters of the Sardaukar, due to the harsh conditions which raised them on Arrakis, far worse than what the Sardaukar experience on Salusa Secondus. Even though this information is largely kept secret in the Imperium, Thufir Hawat and the Duke were able to figure all of it out, that the Emperor would betray them. That's why the Duke was so insistent on pushing for a fast alliance with the Fremen, because they would need them to counter the Emperor's Sardaukar. The Atreides were only caught off guard with how fast the attack betrayal occurred, and with how much force the Harkonnen brought to bear against them.
They actually didn't fear an alliance between the Atreides and Fremen. They genuinely didn't know the threat the Fremen posed, even the Baron and Emperor had no clue. It wasn't until Hawat straight up told them and gave the Baron hard data and facts that he sat back and went "omfg he's right" and layed out plans to do it himself.
The Emperor and Baron didn't actually fear an Atreides-Fremen alliance. They feared a house as popular as Atreides gaining more sway in the political structure, and potentially becoming a rival to the Royal house. The Fremen were the Atreides' "Ace in the hole". A potential way to counter the "invincible" Sardukar legions that they knew the Emperor would loan the Harkonnens on the sly. The Harkonnens though of Fremen as vagabonds and vermin when they thought of them at all, and the Emperor DIDN'T think of them at all. You're right about the betrayal and it coming too quickly though. The Fremen and Atreides had just barely begun to get to know one another when the attack came, and it came with such overwhelming numbers that the Atreides by themselves couldn't have held out. I forget the exact text but there's a conversation that Baron Harkonnen has with (I think) Feyd and goes something to effect of "Of course Hawat knows how we overwhelmed his Duke! We did it with wealth!"
the atreides may have seen the trap due to advanced reasoning and thought they were well prepared because of their anticipation but they underestimated how complex and layered it was and also when it would occur...it happened literally a few days/weeks of arriving ..they assumed the harkonnen would need more time to prepare and were monitoring troop transports from off world. What really broke the atreides was the betrayal from within and from the very person who was said to be the most loyal due to the suuk conditioning. With this they literally killed the king opened the castle gate and with sarduakar reinforcements crushed the atreides easily.
@@thundercricket4634 It must also be said that the betrayal was influenced by the Baron having sway against the Emperor in the form of blackmail (mentioned in the first book), and it was said the Emperor did not entirely seek to bring about the destruction of the Atreides (mentioned very briefly in the first book) regardless of how popular they were.
@@techypriest7523 the emperors reasons for helping beat the atreides was also partially influenced by the fact that their military was starting to rival the saurdakar. which i believe was mentioned at least once in book 1 if not in later books.
Great stuff, Elaine. Thinking about military dictatorships past and present, corruption seems to be a common feature. You didn't mention this corrosive factor directly, but I'm assuming Shaddam IV's oligarchs would have funnelled money away from the Sardaukar, to pay for their space super yachts and giant mansions in the City of London. Errr, I mean the planet Kaitain.
It seems to be a problem inherent in any dictatorships. That and the fact that they prioritise image over effectiveness. It seems that the amount of parades any military takes part in is inversely proportional to the military’s effectiveness (controlling for the actual size of the military obviously).
In one of the later books, Herbert gives another reason for the decline of the Sardaukar against the Fremen - the Saudakar did not have a genuine religious fanaticism for their emperor, but rather had a cult dedicated to savagery and an almost psychotic level of blood-lust. They revelled in combat for combat’s sake - and in Herbert’s universe, this made their devotion and fanaticism inherently weaker than that of the Fremen. I think it was Dune Messiah or Children of Dune, I can’t remember which - but even if the Sardaukar had been raised back to the height of their strength, they probably still would have lost to the Fremen. I enjoyed the explanation for the Sardaukar’s decline, because it matches real life. Many fierce warrior groups, raised in harsh environments and subjected to brutal training from a young age, enjoyed success against “soft” civvie types. And then after victory, they lapse into the same softness they once despised. It happened to the Romans, it happened to the Mongols (after a long time), it happened to the warrior-slaves of the Ottoman empire - as it turns out, it happens to everyone. As much as the “Fierce Warrior” types might boast of the utility and “righteousness” of their terrible upbringings, nobody, not even them, really wanted that life - and very often they do not raise their children in that environment.
Taking the Ottoman Sipahi, and Jeni Ceri as examples, it was rather the economic relation - not religion, not some "fierce warrior" archetype, that proved both their greatest strength, and their ultimate downfall. The Sipahi were granted lands for service in military campaigns - but this required an ongoing expansion of the empire - until it grew too large to sustain itself. The Jeni Ceri, by contrast, did not necessarily get lands for service, but even still, they produced a heirarchy in service with younger Jeni Ceri being tutored and given patronage by older veterans. Eventually they too grew too comfortable to fight, as Jeni Ceri started businesses and other ventures and were more interested in making money, than making war. The Romans in contrast, did not enjoy "success against soft civvie" types because they had some kind of harsh training. This is purely ahistorical. Where the Romans excelled, was logistics. No other fighting force in their time, not even their successor states, were ever able to gain and keep their territorial gains as they did. The fall of an entire Greek successor state - Epirus, its armies led by Pyrrhus - is testament to Roman logistics. Even after winning some stunning victories at Asculum against the Romans, Epirus was ground down and simply overwhelmed by mass of men and materiel. After Asculum, Pyrrhus commented, "If we are victorious in one more battle against the Romans, we will be utterly ruined". Why did Rome fall, then? Because it was a slave empire, and thus was unable or unwilling to make the transition to feudalism as an economic relation. Where the Macedonian successor states, and most of Central Europe were, during Rome's expansion, transitioning to feudalism due to a shortage of manpower, Rome could instead rely on expansive colonial conquest to provide more and more cheap slave labour. But slavery is logistically inefficient. Where slavery compels labour through word and whip, feudalism rewards the worker to produce more after the Lord's tithe. After the Lord took his share, what remained, was the worker's. Thus discipline became voluntary, rather than externally compelled. Rome fell to the "Germanic hordes" not just because of its decadence and "soft" aristocratic elite, it fell because Central Europe could muster more men and materiel than Rome, because feudalism was more productive than having slaves and slave drivers. As for the Mongols - here again you are ahistorical. The Mongols and their successor states, forged an indelible legacy into the Far East and Eastern Europe, influencing battle tactics and methods of government for millennia. Why were they successful? Horse archers aside, it comes down again, to economy, and governance. If you paid your tithe, the Mongols left you alone. If you didn't, first you would face raids, then invasions, then full scale sieges. And it has to be understood, that many of the lands under Mongol control, were actually quite autonomous. In other words, the Mongols had accidentally created the first federated commonwealth in administrative terms. Mongol tithes of food, forage, materiel and men were often redistributed to underdeveloped areas. What's more, the Mongols would build infrastructure, churches, mosques, schools, markets and other things, to enlarge the economies of those they were tithing. Thus compulsion too, became voluntary. If you complied, you might someday get part of the tithe. This was possibly the first empire, which did not only take, but also gave. And not just to facilitate further expansion. So why did they fall? The Mongols also outran their own spheres of effective communications - but this is only just one factor. Federated commonwealths have a common weakness: a gradual divergence of interests. Between regions, between administrators, and this was seen in the splinterism of the empire after Genghis Khan's death. Unlike modern nation states, that often arise from federated commonwealths, the Mongols were unable to reform their model of universalism and political-economic development into a unifying ideology or cause. Even the blood ties of the Khan family itself buckled and broke against the administrative realities of such a sprawling realm. Look at Yugoslavia and the USSR's splintering: universalism replaced by particularism, and a virulent nationalism encouraged by the CIA that broke these commonwealths more thoroughly than the Fascists ever could. And, look at the US empire today. 30 years ago, "American civil war" was the domain of kooks. Today, the "Coastal elites" versus "flyover country ingrates" are exposing very real, and very dangerous divergences of interests. Here too, liberal universalism is being steamrolled by liberal particularism. History points out some possible outcomes. Most, involve bloodshed. It's all well and good, to be inspired by real history and it reflects a great care in world building, when authors pull from historical references. But Frank Herbert I would argue was very careful, to make things different enough and ahistorical enough yet relatable, so as to give the deliberate impression of a human society that has diverged significantly after the first Scattering. Dune is supposed to feature humans that almost feel alien to us, go through internal development and external pressures that seem too much to survive without being fundamentally changed. The "decadence" narrative lens is just lazy moralising. "Clearly these people got soft on power - they should not have sought it, for it ruined them". It allows one to sit back and lazily dismiss historically contingent developments in economy, governance and social institutions. If all you took away from Dune, and from history, was that "decadence ruins an empire" then you should probably go back to school. Decadence is a symptom, not a cause, of a fall of empires. Institutional, political-economic and social developments, are what decides the fates of nations. Just as they do today, and just as they will into the future.
Excellent points however I think the mongols and more akin to the fremen as a military force with its values and skills developed by their natural environment rather than some warrior cult. I think a better comparison would be the samurai of medieval Japan substitute the diamyo for the emperor. As for the fierce warrior types being seduced by soft living I remember in one of the Dune books this elite Fremen warrior telling how he and his comrades on invading an ocean world developing sensory overload because of the amount of water
Fascinatingly this had not been the case with Famed Spartans, rather Sparta became rigid and "racist" in that only Spartans could breed spartans, this meant that more Spartans died in battle the fewer of them there was and their style of fighting was heavily reliant on even numbers as there isn't always a narrow gate or goat road. Later on, Sparta became a soft tourist trap but this was long after their fall from grace. Funnily enough, there is a story about enemy of sparta (I forget if Philip II, Persians or Romans) who went into Peoloponese looking for sparta, but upon seeing a small city without any walls or pomp they thought "this sure cannot be the Sparta we heard about!" and left.
The ethnicity of many Sikhs and other Punjabis is called "Sardar". Ceremonies with red tikka on the forehead and revering weapons are part of various cultures in Punjab. Sikhs carry the Kirpan (a sword) to identify as a member of the Khalsa and Punbajis were known to be good fighters. The British Raj considered them a "martial race" as per their racist world view and inducted them heavily into the army. Punjab also has a history of clashes with middle eastern cultures like Islam which is an inspiration for Arrakis culture. There is also some religious throat singing in the subcontinent.
@@JohnAutumn This comment was so long ago I don't even remember the context. Tilaks are also a cultural thing and it's not uncommon to see it on others. I won't be surprised if sikhs have their own tilaks, I think they use white colored ones.
Thank you so much for doing this! It’s sort of like Cliff’ Notes that I had way back in the day. It is an informed and intellectual description that a lot of us do not have time to go back and read all the books. It is well thought out and well presented and we all truly appreciate it! Keep up a great work!
Excellent video:) I love the Sardaukar and I think Herbert left them kind of in shadow to add to their mystique and ferocity. In the first Dune book you get the feeling that they are like a worn out, but still dangerous Roman legion from the 400s. Their leadership is wrought with infighting, their religion is undermined by cynicism and their pragmatism has been overwhelmed with pride, and then they lose to the Fremen who immediately start changing Dune to make themselves and their toughness impossible in future generations. It's such a fantastic allegory for how everything holds the seeds of its own destruction and no matter the glory of your era, nothing lasts forever.
As always a fantastic video. Thank you. I like how Villeneuve adapted the Sardaukar for the movie. Bringing in an almost Nordic vibe to Sardaukar cultural mix. In the movie the scene where the blood of the sacrificed was being used to mark the Warriors before battle I found very interesting. Generally people seem to think that those being sacrificed were their defeated enemies. But I don’t think this is the case, they look too much like the Sardaukar themselves. My take on it when I first saw this scene was that these were sacrificial volunteers who would give up their own lives in the belief that doing so would bring them honor in the afterlife. This is similar to some Viking rituals with those being sacrificed were often volunteers. Perhaps we should learn more in Dune part two.
I was trying to figure out what was going on with that scene also and if they are failed Sardaukar being sacrificed, it could be their version of Roman Decimation.
yes, the ritual seemed too personal and oddly respectful of those being offered up as sacrifice.. didn't strike me as their enemies either, but if i had to guess, i would say they are retiring soldiers who wish to pass on their strength and greatness to those who come after, literally offering their life blood so the current soldiers may be as strong as they once were.. come to think of it, didn't ancient Sparta have a similar ritual?
Hello my friend. I initially thought that and then remembered from the books that The Sardaukar live on House Corrino’s prison planet. I think they’ve just slaughtered a selection of prisoners so they can perform their pre-battle rituals. Remember that Sardaukar recruits are children. They have bi-annual death matches against other child recruits and start going on raids with the actual Sardaukar at age 12.
Your video music style is one of the best on UA-cam. Great work and please continue make these great lore video. And the soundtrack on background is just perfect. And you have a nice and soothing voice. Keep up the good work
Starting the new movie with the Sadukar chat was amazing! Puts you directly in the feel of the film even before the credits. The Selusa Secundis chant scene while the warriors kneel gave it a familiar yet otherworldly feel at the same time. Haunting and incredibly effective. Incredible film and a remake that finally gets it right!
There's a part of me, an elemental, ancient part of me, and most men, I imagine, that wants that sort of unshakeable espirit de corps, that the Sardukar possess. I guess that's why so many young men have signed up for the armed forces, since time immemorial. Dangerous emotions, in the wrong hands.
When I watched the movie, I'm also fascinated with the sardaukar. The way they held and wiped their swords during the attack and the fight with duncan idaho, it reminded me alot of the samurai. I really loved the concepts and facts about these soldier-fanatics. It's like combining both, yes, a spartan way of life with a bit of bushido way of fighting. Uuuuuh... Spartan-Samurai? Nah. I'm just kidding. Hahaha 😂
I think that’s the absolute intention, although when I first saw this now iconic scene, the Waffen SS also sprang to mind. Their fanatical devotion to The Fuhrer mimics The Sardaukar’s to The Emperor.
This is a great video breakdown of the essence of this warrior class. I can see many influences with other sci-fi and fantasy series like Star Trek's the Jem'Hadar and Halo Spartan Program.
These guys remind me of the Fedayeen (Men of Sacrifice) when I was in Iraq. You could also argue their reputation for ferocity in battle could be matched up with the Chechen's that were considered the best fighters of Al Queda.
When I was a child, I read something attributed to the first Persian Emperor that said somrthing like, "No single land can provide both fine soldiers and fine foods." Though I largely agree with this concept, I have also noted that the greatest savagery of Humanity tends to come from those most civilized, largely because of the organizational tools available to more sophisticated societies. I cannot help but look at the US Army's recruitment campaigns to see some sickening realisation of this concept in real time.
@@Deridus I doubt Cyrus said this. He would have known about the Assyrians only a couple of centuries prior who rampaged around the Near East and trampled over everybody in their path with a brutality almost never seen before or after, despite having fertile soil in their native land.
@@holypaladin4657 I have my doubts as well, but when it comes to parables, who said it hardly matters. The point is basically, if you want tough soldiers, get them from rough areas. "Everything from it's place," if you will. While the most monsterous cruelty is often found in the nost civilized of nations, you won't find orchestras from savage tribes. I could go on for days, really.
@@Deridus I suppose in the majority of cases the quote is correct as you say, but there are always exceptions. I believe that it is tied to culture and society rather than geography. Obviously a barren land will produce a certain kind of culture and people. But sometimes fertile lands and unusual situations will produce the same. The Spartans and their helot slaves producing a certain culture springs to mind, as well as the Assyrians having to see off countless invasions on their flat and indefensible lands for centuries.
I’ve always been fascinated by the Sardauker. They to me represent the extreme pinnacle of toxic masculinity. Whereas the Bene Gesserrit Represent extreme pinnacle of toxic femininity. Sheer brutality, power via strength and cruelty vs manipulation, control, and deception.
@@NerdCookies perhaps yea. But the Bene Tleilaxu are far from masculine. They’re not at all a pinnacle of the male physique or mind. They’re just extreme chauvinism and they scheme and manipulate like the bene gesserit.
i completely agree, and that being said, where would House Harkonnen fit into our metaphorical scale of morals and ethics? are they just more pure sociopathy and greed, instead of good intentions gone awry, as there seems to be with both Gesserrit and Sarduaker? 🤔
@@StayFractalesque The Harkonnens lack honour. They have no inward code, no core of values except the striving towards the satiation of desires. They are fairly hedonistic though there are more hedonistic peoples in the known universe. The Baron seeks both momentary pleasures and long term goals which are themselves still satiation of pleasures, not of a philosophy of life or duty. The Sardaukar believe in honour, specifically an inward duty which means that others may perceive them to lack a sense of honour when it is in fact simply different perceptions of what is honourable due to differing initial values. They may be cowardly and deceitful to stab House Atreides in the back, but they serve their emperor. They know in their core of self that their lives are dedicated to a great purpose. In that they have a certain, but not complete, individuality. The Harkonnen enforcers simply love the brutality they can inflict of interiors while themselves accepting the brutality inflicted on them by their superiors, their leaders simply love their power. This is the typification of the vilest social hierarchy that can be, no honour, no duty, no trust, no true friendship. Their community is built on common lust and common fear, that is all. I do not see particular loyalty to anything except their passions.
I wonder what if any influences from Sikhism were used- being a warrior and protector are large parts of their religion, and I could see future space fantasy powers totally manipulating such beliefs to their own ends. Love these videos- they really have helped with introducing people to the world of Dune and why it should be considered a literary classic and worth reading.
@@ahmadfrhan5265 Both of you are wrong. The Imperial Army is visually reminiscent of Hindu culture (red mark on forehead and three stripes on uniform, three stripes are drawn horizontally on a practising Shaivite Hindu's forehead as well), and Mongolian culture sonically.
I personally saw many connections between the Sardaukar and Bishido. There is nothing more powerful than giving a man a purpose, and nothing more dangerous after training.
I never thought of them having a religion but could clearly see Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" and Nietzsche's influence strongly at work with their beliefs and training.
Yes i can see survival of the fittest being held in high regards on a planet that can easily kill you. Where being nice can cause you or even worst your whole group to die. Tidbit Darwin never said in any of his works survival of the fittest. That was newspaper reporters. What he said was. Whatever traits a creature has that helped them live long enough to have offsprings. Gets carried over to the next generation. Examples of a group of weak nerds were able to outsmart super strong guys and make kids over many generations. The kids would most likely be really smart but average to weak in strength. And take the peacock. Having large, bright and heavy feathers makes them easily killed by predators. But the ones that survive kept the traits for flashy feathers(also because the females like that)
Darwin was actually not a proponent of 'social darwinism ' and Nietzsche's ubermensch was actually a construct to displace the impending nihilism brought about by a pending directionless, faithless, atheistic society that dethroned the concept of God. He was to be more their new moral center, a transcendent being bound by no previous allegiance and morality, instead creating a new morality. 😬😁
Except Darwin's natural selection involved contingency, not the utilization of harshness to refine a population, and Nietzsche's repulsive nonsense (probably ghost written by his sister) only works if you sit in an attic lip-syncing to Black Sabbath. You take that crap into public, fiscal, military or political life and you're just a nihilist. There's no functional group that can run on Nietzschean lines, the collossal inefficiency, infighting and waste of the Third Reich confirmed this starkly. I think Herbert had a vaguer idea of a millenias-old caste that persisted in spite of it's savagery, not because of it. Backed by powerful interests to be used, kept out of leadership in either culture, trade or politics.
Being a casual Dune fan, I had never thought of the Religion aspect of them. Thank you very much, love these vids you do to help folks get a deeper appreciation of the Books!
The way Denis portrayed the Sardaukar's war preparation reminded me of the War rituals performed by Hindu warriors. The blood marks on their forehead is what's know as 'Tilak' in Hindu culture and the blood for that mark comes from sacrifices to the Gods which also relates to the same war rituals I mentioned above. Whereas the Sardaukar's way of fighting and the type of blades used comes from the Samurai culture in Early Japan.
Babu delete ur comment. Don't let know world chhatriya secret or our ally sikh budhha warrior. U r sikh Or rajput. Keep hidden be hidden. Time will come, be silent till that plz
I have studied theology and consider myself a very religious person. However, I am also former U.S. soldier and know that the key to modern western warfare is that there are inviolable rules when we must engage in armed conflict. I find it very interesting and disturbing that soldiers who believe they fight with God’s imprimatur seem to fight with no limits or constraints. They perpetrate some of the most inhumane atrocities known to us. Mixing a fighting force with religious fanaticism is like playing with gasoline and fire 🔥. Just my humble opinion. Thanks for the video!
Absolutely, but history shows us that the human capacity for darkness increases the greater the perception of the threat. So, if you study human psychology you will see that religious zeal is less about God, and more about embedding a particular set of rules within a population. And the tension between God as Love and Unity, and the human tendency to strive to order chaos, and to reject uncertainty, expressed as God as Order and Hierarchy, runs through most of the major religions. And rulers have harnessed both to establish order. As civilisation is leveraging of people and Nature to ensure survival, Love and Order are woven through it. We see it in States seeking to monopolise violence to cope with threats to their survival, and the differences in how they approach this derived from their cultures. So, commenters have noted that Herbert may have drawn on the history of the Jannissaries from early Islamic Egypt, but I also see hints of the Samurai too. Both cultures were ones where death was always close, and ritual and honor codes cemented their positions in society, and their attitude to violence reflected their major cultural influences, and in many ways, fragile societies. Civil wars were commonplace, based on religion or political conflicts. And these militaries reflected their time and place. Today, with much more stability, we are more fastidious and cut off in the West from the reality of killing another human being, and so our Military norms reflect that. We envisag we can eventually delegate it completely to technology, or eliminate the need completely. That's the ideal at least. But the result is the same, because we have not evolved far enough to do so yet. May we all find peace.
@@BigHenFor Interesting thoughts. I’m not so sure we’re all that divorced from killing and violence. It seems men in power are just as willing )if not more so) to use death and violence to maintain and grow their power - by any means necessary. I believe the key to a more just and equitable society begins by recognizing the humanity of the other and the sacredness of that humanity.
The religious symbology of the selusa secundus scene is fascinating. Three red stripes on the uniform (a holdover from the Christian trinity?)the blood anointing on the forehead (Celtic blood rituals?) you see the sun above the stone column and I can’t help but think of Stonehenge. I’m reminded of the Viking berserkers. I can’t remember who but someone in another vid described the sardaukar as Viking samurai. I think what is most interesting about the upcoming clash of cultures is the materially successful empire and the completely unwavering dedication of the fremen. The sardaukar served because they had to. The fremen server because they wanted to.
Great video. One thing I would add is that I think DV is dropping a hint that the BG are involved in the creation and maintenance of this Sardaukar religion. Which although not mentioned in the book, would chime with the Missionaria Protectiva's work. I would draw your attention to 1:38 in your video, where we see robed female figures anointing the cadres.
Great spot my friend and I’m not surprised the BG are involved. The Sardaukar are essentially a tool for The Emperor to use to carry out the BG’s bidding.
Sparta yes, the baby thing isn't a myth thats true, i have seen the bones. , although they dont look to different grom the terrain. But you can find remans over 2 and a half thousand years later . Although other cultures did it too , Romans, Scandinavian Vikings, or in Asia.
In my opinion I felt the Sardukar 'pulled water' from a few wells of inspiration. The japanese warrior monks, the Sohei. The Spartans as you mentioned, the sword schools of the 17th & 18th centuries...And finally the obvious association with the ottoman turk Janissary who themselves were similarly cultivated, and elevated to compel loyalty. It was nearly a direct steal in many ways
As I recall, in one of the Dune sequels (I think it's Messiah but I'm not sure), Irulan's sister orders a Sardaukar Bashar to convert to the Fremen religion in order to understand why it makes the Fremen so powerful.
Didn't Herbert say the reason why the Sardaukar were not a match for the Fremen was due to their lack of religion. It was the religious zeal, the holy war/jihad (NOT crusade as they substituted in the movie), that powered the Fremen. They were holy warrior, fighting FOR something vs. the Sardaukar who fought simply to fight. The pursuit of excellence, being the best drove them vs the Fremen's religious zeal.
I wished that in the film the Sardaukar would have showcased a fighting style that illustrated their brutality more, because in a written story the fighting scenes are easier to portray one side is superior to the other because you are told who won, you know you get to make it up in your head filling the details. But I feel Villeneuve missed the chance to actually SHOW it in their fighting sequences. In my opinion they didn't look any 'better' or 'superior' while fighting the Freman or the Atreides... they just happened to win because the story obviously dictates so. That of course is nit-picking.
I think this strong focus on religion is neither entirely represented by the Frank Herbert nor the Chris Herbert Canon. Especially the Prequels make it clear, that the Sardaukar are mainly a result of the harsh environment, and the abuse of existing Sardaukar of the prisoners, only leaving the strongest to survive, and the Corrinos on purpose keeping Selusa a pit they can dump prisoners into from the million worlds they rule. I think the religious interpretation the early books might hint of Frank also retreat a bit into the pure psychological fervor, while the Fremen are the truly religious Zealots. It is certainly an interesting thought to ponder about their beliefs, but I think the people there simply believed in survival and strength, and actually not believing in anything larger, this was a weakness in a way. Also, while Zensunni are mentioned in both canons (or even explained in the prequels) on Selusa, neither canon makes sense to see the Sardaukar as strictly Zensunni descendants, as it is quite clear, that it is a prison planet, to put people there, from other planets. If it were only the native population, they would have died out.
I love that they did them justice in this film… god knows David Lynch’s adaptation left a LOT to be desired (their significance was not made as clear to the overall plot, and when you finally do see them in battle in that film they look ridiculous in over-sized rubber suits
The Sadukar are the Corino answer to the Holy army of the Catholic Church during the era of the crusades and the early renaissance. Though there are other influences such as the roman legions, first being recruited from Rome and Roman territories then slipping and lowering standards to be less than perfect, and allowing mercenaries from foreign states to be the primary legionnaires, so too did the Sadurkar as you stated slipped in their standards. Though conversely the Freman are much like the Goths, visa Goths and Guls, whom learned the tactics and methodology of the Roman legions and used that knowledge to sack Rome and carve out a new order. Both cases the opposition knew its enemy well and had advanced counter tactics to take advantage inherited weaknesses that were never addressed in the ideology of the army they faced.
To motivate people to something as fundamentally inhumane as war, they need to believe their cause is completely right, they will go to a Heaven if they're killed, and God(s) will forgive and erase any awful thing they do along the way.
I disagree. You can see quite well with current events in the real world, that all you need to make people become inhumane in wars, is the first part, believing they are right. No heaven or religion needed. Maybe not even the being right part, just the "ability to do stuff without consequence".
It's difficult to draw an appropriate historical analogy to the Sardaukar when we know so little about their strategy and logistics. The tactics they are shown too rely upon are very individual soldier focused and limited in sophistication. They land on a planet, storm out and kill everything which resist. No use of combined arms, task deployed weapon systems, no navy, no armour, no air force, no artillery. No engineers, sappers, drivers or logistician, not to mention a leadership staff. I don't think Frank Herbert were either interested in, or knew very much about the intricacies of state warfare. That they are referred to as deploying in legions would suggest they are modelled on the Imperial Roman Army though.
Oh yeah, I came to that same conclusion as well. Herbert was clueless or intentionally chose not to delve into such intricacies and sadly, Dune suffers for it. While warfare is not the main plot point, it does make his world building suffer. Especially in regards to the relationship between lasers and shields. He fails to understand how the arms race works. No one in their right mind ever would have switched back to melee as a primary form of weapon. Plate Armor foreshadowed the demise of melee combat, then later black powder spelled its end. Even if one adheres to Dune's logic, then all one has to do is wear plate-mail underneath a shield belt and becomes nigh invulnerable to melee weapons. As in-world logic dictates anything other than a bladed weapon would be ineffective. Anything that could defeat Plate Mail, would be beaten by a shield, as it would have to slow down enough to bypass and thus be unable to penetrate the plate armor. The weak points in plate armor could easily be protected by futuristic materials or even just chain-mail. Thus in the end, forcing militaries right back to ranged weaponry. If Lasers cause nuclear explosions, then use ballistic weaponry that cause explosions. Even if they cannot pass the shield, the kinetic force will pass the shield and cause internal bleeding and or just knock someone out cold from the force of the impact. The American military figured out that while the armor plating on Humvees was protecting soldiers from the explosion, it did not stop the kinetic force from the explosion traveling through the armor up the seats, and ripping through the soldier's bodies. Causing lethal internal bleeding in many cases. Thus, one does not need to physically touch an opponent. Physics can often do the work for you.
Frank wanted a big scary elite group, so he could have his even more elite group trounce them. The Sardaukar don't really make sense, and the Fremen beating them really don't make sense.
Remember that Herbert badly wanted to justify a medieval-style setting and warfare. The Butlerian Jihad regressed technology and "modern" warfare. Shields made guns useless and lasguns suicidal. Thus swords and melee came back in style probably because the author thought it was cool. That and Herbert wasn't a military logistics kind of writer just like Tolkien wasn't a "Aragorn's tax policy" kind of writer because those are not important in their stories.
@@DarkAshenfall My headcanon for a seeming lack of futuristic sword-proof armor in Dune is melee weapons in Dune are basically kinda like armor-piercing bullets and Dune armor protects against everything else except for weapons designed for it and the Imperium goes along with it because thats just the way things are.
The more I learn about Dune and WH40K the more I see the huge influence Herbert had on Games Workshop's grimdark scifi setting. I dig it. they really are two of the most interesting scifi universes, IMO.
As a Brit who lived for 25 years in the US, the cult of the military is obviously alive and well over there. Someone's in the army for a couple of years and their identity as a "veteran" is set for life, their character unquestionable and their actions justified. Describing them as paid killers protecting corporate interests doesn't go down well. I might learn to trust someone _despite_ the fact that they were a marine but never, ever _because_ of that and speaking honestly with them, they know why I feel that way and all know at least one comrade they'd kill before letting them near their family. When they are conditioned to a hierarchy, those with the right mind set put civilians at the bottom. I point out that I outrank them since I can tell their commander in chief to go to hell.
Never understood why the call soldiers straight out of training veterans. Every other nation you have to serve a certain amount of time going back to the Romans and beyond. When I hear veteran I think of a high ranking officer or someone retired.
As a US citizen, I think the veneration of someone because they were or are in the military is ridiculous. Yes, I appreciate their service. If they were deployed into conflict and were actually involved in the conflict, it’s valued and appreciated. But I know way too many people that expect everything to be given to them just because they were in some branch of the military. And having had many family members in the military at some point, it’s a very messed up system. I know some people who were in conflict, lost fellow soldiers or were injured. That’s the tough part. They really did and do suffer for the decisions of politicians. Some of them do it for the love of their country. Some do it for the benefits or because they feel it’s their best option.
Not just the older children that didn't exhibit desired strengths, but ANY newborn that had an obvious weakness or abnormality. The Spartans had a particular cliff along the shores used for this discarding.
Ironically their survival of the fittest, i.e. letting the young die in harsh conditions might actually be detrimental to their philosophy of honing the perfect soldier. An example would be that many children that are small at birth can turn out to be very large and strong adults and vice-versa.
Interesting. I played water polo for the U18 US National Team at 15, and I was the bigger then two 6 foot “runts” that both grew to be 6’4”. Lol I stayed the same and I would have liked to be slightly taller for basketball . But yea, a lot of growth happens late adolescence
I would expect elements of other religions, i.e. The Veneration of Hachiman, Shiva or other similar deities would find purchase in their beliefs...great content
Frank Herbert might have get is inspiration for the Sardaukar and the Fremen primarily on the Knights Templars, the Janissaries, the Mameluks, the Sicarii Jews and the first muslim arabic force who fought with Muhammad. But we have to consider that other similar elite forces or groups of resistance fighters could have inspired him as well: the Varigians, the Spartan hoplites, Alexander's Companions Cavalry and the Elite Silver Shiels heavy infantry, the Samurai, the ninja/shinobi, the Immortals, the Afghans Mujahidin, the Assassins order, the Praetorian Guard, the Native Americans tribes resistance and so on.
Good work. Thanks for the upload. I'm looking for a comparison in history and come to the conclusion that the Sardaukar are a mixture of the Janissaries, kidnapped and Islamized, fanatical Christian children who fought for the Ottomans and the German SS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Herbert took his cue from them.
Learned about your channel from Nerdrotic today. Very good production value here! Sub earned! Would love to hear additional commentary about their blood ceremony in the latest movie.
Me, just seeing Duncan Idaho cleave his way through the Sardauker led me to believe that this imperial formidable force wasn't as formidable as they were Harold to be, and the Fremen led by Paul would make short work of them.
That scene where these guys where crucified upside down, reminds me of that episode on vikings, where they celebrated in opsala. Back then they killed nine of each race as an gift to the northern gods.
Lol now I know where you are getting your info. The appendixes in the first book are pov from in the book written after Paul took the throne. From the pov of the author an unknown force being able to best the sardukar was unthinkable and had to be explained in a way that bows to the new Emperor.
It always startles me when I see that ppl like to forget the life long exposure of the fremen to the spice. The Sardaukar have strict selection, training and willpower but the fremen are simply more human than human. (Which is also a logical break in the whole story by itself - every "lasting" Empire needs an able military and good intel and to have no idea about the long time effect of simply living on that planet is the complete opposite of intel / beeing able.) Sadly, there are some small logic gaps in the great works of ppl who relied on "Spice" too much themselfes. (Herbert, Philip K. Dick....)
The depth of a story is only as good as antagonist. The more intelligent, capable, and cunning the bad guy, the greater the protagonists arc. I hope in Dune II, they expand on the Sardukar, and Feyd-Rautha beyond the 1 dimensional caricature of past attempts.
The Sardaukar's warrior religion sounds like bushido, which was a form of Zen Buddhism combined with Confuciusm practiced by the Samarai in feudal Japan.
1:10 I can understand that Judaism have some kind of warrior traditions in its religion. The latest iteration of that traditions is called the IDF spirit, Ruach Tzahal. Not sure about Islam though. A muslim warrior is called a Ghazi, Gazi or Razzia. The term comes from the word Ghazw. It basically means military expeditions or raiding. Unlike Judaism, the term has more political tones than religion. Frank Herbert made little reference to other famous religion with warrior doctrines like Hinduism's kshatriyas caste or Buddihism's warrior monks. Frank Herbert lumping diverse religious traditions are rifed in Orientalism. Lol
I still don't think we can really grasp how truly terrifying the Sardaukar army is, it's so beyond anything humanity has ever known. Also, I always wondered why the first Dune movie had the emperor look so old when the book had him looking in his 30s. Just one of the many departures from the book I suppose.
Nerd Cookies. They were the criminals of the Empire. Thrown into a Atomics blasted wasteland infested with the most dangerous killers (Human & Animal) and conditions in the empire. By the time of the first novel, it was generally believed that one Sardaukar was equal to 100 house soldiers. Their primary purpose was to balance the armies of the Landsraad. To make war for the throne unthinkable. Those 11 year old's were their children. Then, rumors began circulating that House Atreides soldiers were being trained in a new method. A combination of Jessica's Bene Gesserit training in Prana-Bindu, close quarter fighting from Duncan, Idaho - a swordmaster of Ginaz and the military tactics of Gurney Halleck. This training was producing an army that could rival the dreaded Sardaukar and possibly put Duke Leto on the throne through a political marriage to Princess Irulan. The emperors’ ego simply couldn't accept that and it drove him into an alliance with Baron Harkonnen. We know what happened then. The Atreides method did not find its full flowering until Jessica and Paul met and were accepted by the Freman of Sietch Tabr with the creation of the Fedaykin, who thought fighting Sardaukar was fun!
Unfortunately, they ended up in the same problem most movies have. If our modern troops had weapons to defeat their shields, or if the Sardaukar didn't have shields for whatever reason, they wouldn't last against really any of our troops. Their tactics are that bad. They're brutal...but incompetent. . To be fair, Dune's shields are relatively easy to beat. Redevelop the old Gyrojet pistols and rifles, and add a new feature to the rounds. A secondary propellant that only ignites after the main propellant is expended. It burns longer, at a much lower pressure. The round hits the shield, and keeps pushing, but obviously can't go through because it was "too fast", then the secondary propellant kicks in, and thrusts with sufficiently lower thrust to get through the shield, but still enough to put the spike-like bullet into flesh. Perhaps a fragmentary aspect, with a single explosive compound that ignites as the secondary propellant ends. It would be somewhat complicated, but we have much faster and more effective methods of design and engineering than what were available when Gyrojets were first built. . Then again, I'd do what the Harkonnen did, and fire a laser at a shield. The only real difference being that I wouldn't bother landing my troops at all. I'd just pick a vehicle or person with a shield, and quietly tag them with a lasgun beam. Boom. No more Arakeen City. No more Atreides, and if the Guild doesn't treat me well...no more spice. You get the entire Imperium by the balls for firing one goddamned weapon. But no...let's do this "plans within plans" dipshittery.
Sardaukar, The most feared force in the Imperium
Fremen: I'm gonna put some dirt in your eye
wEiRdInG wAy
Pocket sand!
The imperial sardaukar reminded me of the ottoman janissaries in that they were once the most powerful and feared force in their respective empires but over the centuries became more and more concerned with their own power until they became a mere shadow of their former selves and were overthrown by a far more powerful force and done away with by the ruler of the empire
Their belief that they were so much better than any opponent was founded in reality. For as long as anyone could remember, they WERE that much better.
But martial arts are perishable. If they don't fight the very best, even elite warriors can get soft.
It certainly happened with the Janissaries.
Your comparison is even better when comparing how the Janissaries were important in domestic politics. No one dared move against the Sultan because his troops were loyal only to him. A rare thing in feudal societies.
That is a main reason I love the Dune books so much. Different planet, different age, different society even.
But people are still people. And they act like us humans have acted for all of history.
@@treydixon5399 To add on that, not even the Sultan was spared from their influence. Many sultans tried to move against the Janissaries to modernize the army. Modernization of course meant the Janissaries would lose power. Let's say, it didn't go down very well for the sultans. At that point they were a force against the development of the empire. It took a f-ing SECOND ARMY to get the Janissaries out of the way, which itself was a gruesome affair.
I thought the same thing!
You've got something there. Besides this, the Janissaries had close ties with the Bektaşi dervish order, with each janissary having a dervish 'godfather-like' figure who would bless him upon completion of training. The Janissary headdress was said to be modelled after Haci (Hadji) Bektaş's sleeve, as he had laid it on the heads of the first Janissaries to bless them. So there was a religious element to this martial mystique, and, interestingly enough, from an esoteric offshoot of Islam organised in confidential fraternities.
yeah, there are lots of pretty clear references to the Ottoman Empire in the first trilogy. There are also plenty of Lawrence of Arabia with Paul Attended, with the Fremen taking the role of the Arab tribes.
As a kid i thought the Dune84 Sardaukar were quite scary but the new ones in Dune21 are absolutely terrifying but the book versions are the most brutal ones.
Sadaukar in the SciFi TV version not intimidating at all!
@@rashisti Chef Boyardukar
@@cchavezjr7 🤣🤣🤣
@@rashisti they were quite comical tbf
@@cchavezjr7 underrated joke right here
Dune Sadukar definitly inspired 40k SpaceMarines. Their God-Emperor, Religion as weapon and Zeal. Even the little dots on their forehead...
Warhammer is a copy of everything before
@@marcosrotllan and it’s wonderful
@@brandonness2809 depending how much you expend in miniatures
@@marcosrotllan Nonsense. Just buy a videogame or read a book. I got started reading Lexicanum articles between session of Dark Heresy, 100% pirated lol. Fell in love with the Mechanicum after making a tech priest Celerii with an anti-grav jump pack, power axe and laser Gatling gun and an infrasound generator in his vocabulator so he was great with intimidate and could make chaff run in terror when he landed on and crushed one of them. Asked the GM for his bionic legs to fluff as digitigrade legs with claw feet and he surprised me with a pic of my guy landing on one chaos guardsman, grabbing another with his foot, and cleaving 2 more with his axe a la General Grievous from Tartakovosky's The Clone Wars. Only thing I bought was a penny to mark my character's position on my friend's dry erase board and chipped in for paper and snacks.
@@marcosrotllan and turned up to 11.
The Sardaukar were one of the highlights of last year's Dune. I can't wait to see more of them in Part 2!
When I heard that voice at the beginning of the movie, I couldn't stop rewinding it.
"Dreams are messages from the deep."
Crazy ass throat-speak.
Another contributing factor to their defeat at the hands of the Fremen is the matter of personal shields.
The technology is ubiquitous across the universe, but almost never seen on Arrakis due to it's interaction with the sand worms. As a result, the Sardaukar are trained shield fighters (slow attack, fast defense) while the Fremen are experienced in fighting without that technology and the benefits and drawbacks it brings.
A fight between the two could very well be settled simply by the use of a personal shield. It is fortunate, then, that the battle that put Muad'dib on the golden lion throne was fought on Arrakis where fighting without shields was all but necessary.
Both the sardukar and the fremen, we're both hardened by the harsh conditions of their planets. The advantage the fremen had besides fighting on their home court was they were trained by Paul in the weirding ways and they were enhanced by the spice
@@chevydrum82 Your both right. Shields on Arrakis were worse than useless, they were dangerous.
Thank you, I was really irked the novel didn't seemed to directly address it, but if even Paul lost the chance at two or three killing blows, it mean it would be a huge disadvantage for the Sardaukars as well. Given how powerful shields are, I think the Fremen would have lost if they faced Sardaukars equipped with them (save for Paul and Jessica managing to retrain them).
Losses wise, the Harkonned did better at killing the Fremen because they likely lost hope for close combat and just blasted at them, while the Sardaukars would be too proud of their skills to concede the superiority.
And lady Jessica thought the freman the weirding way
Early in the first Dune book, during the meeting in the airfield tower, the Atriedes were able to divine that the Harkonnen were going to attack and that they would be aided by the Emperor and his Sardaukar. One of the reasons given is they feared an alliance between the Atreides and the Fremen. Given the Duke's charisma, fairness, and integrity he's gained loyalty and love from the people under his command and from people all over the galaxy, Great and Lesser Houses in the Imperium, which would make an Atreides Fremen alliance likely. The Emperor also knew that the Fremen would be, or become, a rival to the fighters of the Sardaukar, due to the harsh conditions which raised them on Arrakis, far worse than what the Sardaukar experience on Salusa Secondus.
Even though this information is largely kept secret in the Imperium, Thufir Hawat and the Duke were able to figure all of it out, that the Emperor would betray them. That's why the Duke was so insistent on pushing for a fast alliance with the Fremen, because they would need them to counter the Emperor's Sardaukar. The Atreides were only caught off guard with how fast the attack betrayal occurred, and with how much force the Harkonnen brought to bear against them.
They actually didn't fear an alliance between the Atreides and Fremen. They genuinely didn't know the threat the Fremen posed, even the Baron and Emperor had no clue. It wasn't until Hawat straight up told them and gave the Baron hard data and facts that he sat back and went "omfg he's right" and layed out plans to do it himself.
The Emperor and Baron didn't actually fear an Atreides-Fremen alliance. They feared a house as popular as Atreides gaining more sway in the political structure, and potentially becoming a rival to the Royal house. The Fremen were the Atreides' "Ace in the hole". A potential way to counter the "invincible" Sardukar legions that they knew the Emperor would loan the Harkonnens on the sly. The Harkonnens though of Fremen as vagabonds and vermin when they thought of them at all, and the Emperor DIDN'T think of them at all.
You're right about the betrayal and it coming too quickly though. The Fremen and Atreides had just barely begun to get to know one another when the attack came, and it came with such overwhelming numbers that the Atreides by themselves couldn't have held out. I forget the exact text but there's a conversation that Baron Harkonnen has with (I think) Feyd and goes something to effect of "Of course Hawat knows how we overwhelmed his Duke! We did it with wealth!"
the atreides may have seen the trap due to advanced reasoning and thought they were well prepared because of their anticipation but they underestimated how complex and layered it was and also when it would occur...it happened literally a few days/weeks of arriving ..they assumed the harkonnen would need more time to prepare and were monitoring troop transports from off world.
What really broke the atreides was the betrayal from within and from the very person who was said to be the most loyal due to the suuk conditioning. With this they literally killed the king opened the castle gate and with sarduakar reinforcements crushed the atreides easily.
@@thundercricket4634 It must also be said that the betrayal was influenced by the Baron having sway against the Emperor in the form of blackmail (mentioned in the first book), and it was said the Emperor did not entirely seek to bring about the destruction of the Atreides (mentioned very briefly in the first book) regardless of how popular they were.
@@techypriest7523 the emperors reasons for helping beat the atreides was also partially influenced by the fact that their military was starting to rival the saurdakar. which i believe was mentioned at least once in book 1 if not in later books.
Great stuff, Elaine. Thinking about military dictatorships past and present, corruption seems to be a common feature. You didn't mention this corrosive factor directly, but I'm assuming Shaddam IV's oligarchs would have funnelled money away from the Sardaukar, to pay for their space super yachts and giant mansions in the City of London. Errr, I mean the planet Kaitain.
Also consider corruption within the units themselves, similar to the Praetorian Guards of the middle-late Roman Empire.
It seems to be a problem inherent in any dictatorships. That and the fact that they prioritise image over effectiveness.
It seems that the amount of parades any military takes part in is inversely proportional to the military’s effectiveness (controlling for the actual size of the military obviously).
In one of the later books, Herbert gives another reason for the decline of the Sardaukar against the Fremen - the Saudakar did not have a genuine religious fanaticism for their emperor, but rather had a cult dedicated to savagery and an almost psychotic level of blood-lust. They revelled in combat for combat’s sake - and in Herbert’s universe, this made their devotion and fanaticism inherently weaker than that of the Fremen. I think it was Dune Messiah or Children of Dune, I can’t remember which - but even if the Sardaukar had been raised back to the height of their strength, they probably still would have lost to the Fremen.
I enjoyed the explanation for the Sardaukar’s decline, because it matches real life. Many fierce warrior groups, raised in harsh environments and subjected to brutal training from a young age, enjoyed success against “soft” civvie types. And then after victory, they lapse into the same softness they once despised. It happened to the Romans, it happened to the Mongols (after a long time), it happened to the warrior-slaves of the Ottoman empire - as it turns out, it happens to everyone. As much as the “Fierce Warrior” types might boast of the utility and “righteousness” of their terrible upbringings, nobody, not even them, really wanted that life - and very often they do not raise their children in that environment.
Taking the Ottoman Sipahi, and Jeni Ceri as examples, it was rather the economic relation - not religion, not some "fierce warrior" archetype, that proved both their greatest strength, and their ultimate downfall. The Sipahi were granted lands for service in military campaigns - but this required an ongoing expansion of the empire - until it grew too large to sustain itself. The Jeni Ceri, by contrast, did not necessarily get lands for service, but even still, they produced a heirarchy in service with younger Jeni Ceri being tutored and given patronage by older veterans. Eventually they too grew too comfortable to fight, as Jeni Ceri started businesses and other ventures and were more interested in making money, than making war.
The Romans in contrast, did not enjoy "success against soft civvie" types because they had some kind of harsh training. This is purely ahistorical. Where the Romans excelled, was logistics. No other fighting force in their time, not even their successor states, were ever able to gain and keep their territorial gains as they did. The fall of an entire Greek successor state - Epirus, its armies led by Pyrrhus - is testament to Roman logistics. Even after winning some stunning victories at Asculum against the Romans, Epirus was ground down and simply overwhelmed by mass of men and materiel. After Asculum, Pyrrhus commented, "If we are victorious in one more battle against the Romans, we will be utterly ruined".
Why did Rome fall, then? Because it was a slave empire, and thus was unable or unwilling to make the transition to feudalism as an economic relation. Where the Macedonian successor states, and most of Central Europe were, during Rome's expansion, transitioning to feudalism due to a shortage of manpower, Rome could instead rely on expansive colonial conquest to provide more and more cheap slave labour. But slavery is logistically inefficient. Where slavery compels labour through word and whip, feudalism rewards the worker to produce more after the Lord's tithe. After the Lord took his share, what remained, was the worker's. Thus discipline became voluntary, rather than externally compelled. Rome fell to the "Germanic hordes" not just because of its decadence and "soft" aristocratic elite, it fell because Central Europe could muster more men and materiel than Rome, because feudalism was more productive than having slaves and slave drivers.
As for the Mongols - here again you are ahistorical. The Mongols and their successor states, forged an indelible legacy into the Far East and Eastern Europe, influencing battle tactics and methods of government for millennia. Why were they successful? Horse archers aside, it comes down again, to economy, and governance. If you paid your tithe, the Mongols left you alone. If you didn't, first you would face raids, then invasions, then full scale sieges. And it has to be understood, that many of the lands under Mongol control, were actually quite autonomous. In other words, the Mongols had accidentally created the first federated commonwealth in administrative terms. Mongol tithes of food, forage, materiel and men were often redistributed to underdeveloped areas. What's more, the Mongols would build infrastructure, churches, mosques, schools, markets and other things, to enlarge the economies of those they were tithing. Thus compulsion too, became voluntary. If you complied, you might someday get part of the tithe. This was possibly the first empire, which did not only take, but also gave. And not just to facilitate further expansion. So why did they fall? The Mongols also outran their own spheres of effective communications - but this is only just one factor. Federated commonwealths have a common weakness: a gradual divergence of interests. Between regions, between administrators, and this was seen in the splinterism of the empire after Genghis Khan's death. Unlike modern nation states, that often arise from federated commonwealths, the Mongols were unable to reform their model of universalism and political-economic development into a unifying ideology or cause. Even the blood ties of the Khan family itself buckled and broke against the administrative realities of such a sprawling realm. Look at Yugoslavia and the USSR's splintering: universalism replaced by particularism, and a virulent nationalism encouraged by the CIA that broke these commonwealths more thoroughly than the Fascists ever could. And, look at the US empire today. 30 years ago, "American civil war" was the domain of kooks. Today, the "Coastal elites" versus "flyover country ingrates" are exposing very real, and very dangerous divergences of interests. Here too, liberal universalism is being steamrolled by liberal particularism. History points out some possible outcomes. Most, involve bloodshed.
It's all well and good, to be inspired by real history and it reflects a great care in world building, when authors pull from historical references. But Frank Herbert I would argue was very careful, to make things different enough and ahistorical enough yet relatable, so as to give the deliberate impression of a human society that has diverged significantly after the first Scattering. Dune is supposed to feature humans that almost feel alien to us, go through internal development and external pressures that seem too much to survive without being fundamentally changed. The "decadence" narrative lens is just lazy moralising. "Clearly these people got soft on power - they should not have sought it, for it ruined them". It allows one to sit back and lazily dismiss historically contingent developments in economy, governance and social institutions. If all you took away from Dune, and from history, was that "decadence ruins an empire" then you should probably go back to school. Decadence is a symptom, not a cause, of a fall of empires. Institutional, political-economic and social developments, are what decides the fates of nations. Just as they do today, and just as they will into the future.
Excellent points however I think the mongols and more akin to the fremen as a military force with its values and skills developed by their natural environment rather than some warrior cult. I think a better comparison would be the samurai of medieval Japan substitute the diamyo for the emperor. As for the fierce warrior types being seduced by soft living I remember in one of the Dune books this elite Fremen warrior telling how he and his comrades on invading an ocean world developing sensory overload because of the amount of water
Correct sir. Herbert recognized this pattern.
Well said.
Fascinatingly this had not been the case with Famed Spartans, rather Sparta became rigid and "racist" in that only Spartans could breed spartans, this meant that more Spartans died in battle the fewer of them there was and their style of fighting was heavily reliant on even numbers as there isn't always a narrow gate or goat road. Later on, Sparta became a soft tourist trap but this was long after their fall from grace. Funnily enough, there is a story about enemy of sparta (I forget if Philip II, Persians or Romans) who went into Peoloponese looking for sparta, but upon seeing a small city without any walls or pomp they thought "this sure cannot be the Sparta we heard about!" and left.
Interesting in hearing about the religions of Dune Elaine. Keep up the great work!
It's crazy that such absurd cultural relics as middle eastern tribal mythology have persisted that far into humanity's (imagined) future.
I Always enjoy the Dune lore vids!!! Thumbs Up.
Thanks elaine and nick. They always struck me as futuristic Roman legionnaires. With an honor system plus rewards for victory.
The ethnicity of many Sikhs and other Punjabis is called "Sardar". Ceremonies with red tikka on the forehead and revering weapons are part of various cultures in Punjab. Sikhs carry the Kirpan (a sword) to identify as a member of the Khalsa and Punbajis were known to be good fighters. The British Raj considered them a "martial race" as per their racist world view and inducted them heavily into the army. Punjab also has a history of clashes with middle eastern cultures like Islam which is an inspiration for Arrakis culture. There is also some religious throat singing in the subcontinent.
They also wear those red dots similar to bindis.
Tilaks are a Hindu practise. Are you trolling?
@@JohnAutumn
This comment was so long ago I don't even remember the context. Tilaks are also a cultural thing and it's not uncommon to see it on others. I won't be surprised if sikhs have their own tilaks, I think they use white colored ones.
@@jaisalsanghvi white tilaks on Sikhs 😂 they not iskon people
Everyone is racist; why emphasize that quality in the British?
Thank you so much for doing this!
It’s sort of like Cliff’ Notes that I had way back in the day. It is an informed and intellectual description that a lot of us do not have time to go back and read all the books. It is well thought out and well presented and we all truly appreciate it!
Keep up a great work!
My pleasure! Thank you! ❤
Sardaukar reminds me of the Japanese Imperial Military before and during WW2 ,with their Bushido warrior code.
And schizo cruelty
Excellent video:) I love the Sardaukar and I think Herbert left them kind of in shadow to add to their mystique and ferocity. In the first Dune book you get the feeling that they are like a worn out, but still dangerous Roman legion from the 400s. Their leadership is wrought with infighting, their religion is undermined by cynicism and their pragmatism has been overwhelmed with pride, and then they lose to the Fremen who immediately start changing Dune to make themselves and their toughness impossible in future generations. It's such a fantastic allegory for how everything holds the seeds of its own destruction and no matter the glory of your era, nothing lasts forever.
As always a fantastic video. Thank you. I like how Villeneuve adapted the Sardaukar for the movie. Bringing in an almost Nordic vibe to Sardaukar cultural mix.
In the movie the scene where the blood of the sacrificed was being used to mark the Warriors before battle I found very interesting. Generally people seem to think that those being sacrificed were their defeated enemies. But I don’t think this is the case, they look too much like the Sardaukar themselves. My take on it when I first saw this scene was that these were sacrificial volunteers who would give up their own lives in the belief that doing so would bring them honor in the afterlife. This is similar to some Viking rituals with those being sacrificed were often volunteers.
Perhaps we should learn more in Dune part two.
Yeah, my take on it was that the sacrifices were those who failed the training.
I was trying to figure out what was going on with that scene also and if they are failed Sardaukar being sacrificed, it could be their version of Roman Decimation.
yes, the ritual seemed too personal and oddly respectful of those being offered up as sacrifice.. didn't strike me as their enemies either, but if i had to guess, i would say they are retiring soldiers who wish to pass on their strength and greatness to those who come after, literally offering their life blood so the current soldiers may be as strong as they once were.. come to think of it, didn't ancient Sparta have a similar ritual?
Hello my friend. I initially thought that and then remembered from the books that The Sardaukar live on House Corrino’s prison planet. I think they’ve just slaughtered a selection of prisoners so they can perform their pre-battle rituals. Remember that Sardaukar recruits are children. They have bi-annual death matches against other child recruits and start going on raids with the actual Sardaukar at age 12.
Your video music style is one of the best on UA-cam. Great work and please continue make these great lore video. And the soundtrack on background is just perfect. And you have a nice and soothing voice. Keep up the good work
You’re getting close to 100K subs!! Great job!! Won’t be long.
Her: Said the words and I'm yours
He:
"BOODUELLHMMMMDELLBOYEWLDUUULLLHMMDUUUULGAROWLHMMMMDOIUUULLBOIDOIL"
Starting the new movie with the Sadukar chat was amazing! Puts you directly in the feel of the film even before the credits. The Selusa Secundis chant scene while the warriors kneel gave it a familiar yet otherworldly feel at the same time. Haunting and incredibly effective. Incredible film and a remake that finally gets it right!
The Sardaukar's 2 main weapons are surprise and fear and a fanatical devotion of the Emperor... Damn.
There's a part of me, an elemental, ancient part of me, and most men, I imagine, that wants that sort of unshakeable espirit de corps, that the Sardukar possess. I guess that's why so many young men have signed up for the armed forces, since time immemorial. Dangerous emotions, in the wrong hands.
Elemental🤣
When I watched the movie, I'm also fascinated with the sardaukar. The way they held and wiped their swords during the attack and the fight with duncan idaho, it reminded me alot of the samurai. I really loved the concepts and facts about these soldier-fanatics. It's like combining both, yes, a spartan way of life with a bit of bushido way of fighting. Uuuuuh... Spartan-Samurai? Nah. I'm just kidding. Hahaha 😂
I think that’s the absolute intention, although when I first saw this now iconic scene, the Waffen SS also sprang to mind. Their fanatical devotion to The Fuhrer mimics The Sardaukar’s to The Emperor.
This is a great video breakdown of the essence of this warrior class. I can see many influences with other sci-fi and fantasy series like Star Trek's the Jem'Hadar and Halo Spartan Program.
These guys remind me of the Fedayeen (Men of Sacrifice) when I was in Iraq. You could also argue their reputation for ferocity in battle could be matched up with the Chechen's that were considered the best fighters of Al Queda.
When I was a child, I read something attributed to the first Persian Emperor that said somrthing like, "No single land can provide both fine soldiers and fine foods." Though I largely agree with this concept, I have also noted that the greatest savagery of Humanity tends to come from those most civilized, largely because of the organizational tools available to more sophisticated societies. I cannot help but look at the US Army's recruitment campaigns to see some sickening realisation of this concept in real time.
@@Deridus
I doubt Cyrus said this. He would have known about the Assyrians only a couple of centuries prior who rampaged around the Near East and trampled over everybody in their path with a brutality almost never seen before or after, despite having fertile soil in their native land.
@@holypaladin4657 I have my doubts as well, but when it comes to parables, who said it hardly matters. The point is basically, if you want tough soldiers, get them from rough areas. "Everything from it's place," if you will. While the most monsterous cruelty is often found in the nost civilized of nations, you won't find orchestras from savage tribes. I could go on for days, really.
@@Deridus
I suppose in the majority of cases the quote is correct as you say, but there are always exceptions. I believe that it is tied to culture and society rather than geography. Obviously a barren land will produce a certain kind of culture and people. But sometimes fertile lands and unusual situations will produce the same. The Spartans and their helot slaves producing a certain culture springs to mind, as well as the Assyrians having to see off countless invasions on their flat and indefensible lands for centuries.
I’ve always been fascinated by the Sardauker. They to me represent the extreme pinnacle of toxic masculinity. Whereas the Bene Gesserrit Represent extreme pinnacle of toxic femininity. Sheer brutality, power via strength and cruelty vs manipulation, control, and deception.
Great comparison! I see the Bene Tleilax and the Bene Gesserit as mirror opposites as well.
@@NerdCookies perhaps yea. But the Bene Tleilaxu are far from masculine. They’re not at all a pinnacle of the male physique or mind. They’re just extreme chauvinism and they scheme and manipulate like the bene gesserit.
I never heard of the Bene Gesserrits as that. But I see it know. Where being balance is best
i completely agree, and that being said, where would House Harkonnen fit into our metaphorical scale of morals and ethics? are they just more pure sociopathy and greed, instead of good intentions gone awry, as there seems to be with both Gesserrit and Sarduaker? 🤔
@@StayFractalesque
The Harkonnens lack honour. They have no inward code, no core of values except the striving towards the satiation of desires. They are fairly hedonistic though there are more hedonistic peoples in the known universe. The Baron seeks both momentary pleasures and long term goals which are themselves still satiation of pleasures, not of a philosophy of life or duty. The Sardaukar believe in honour, specifically an inward duty which means that others may perceive them to lack a sense of honour when it is in fact simply different perceptions of what is honourable due to differing initial values. They may be cowardly and deceitful to stab House Atreides in the back, but they serve their emperor. They know in their core of self that their lives are dedicated to a great purpose. In that they have a certain, but not complete, individuality. The Harkonnen enforcers simply love the brutality they can inflict of interiors while themselves accepting the brutality inflicted on them by their superiors, their leaders simply love their power. This is the typification of the vilest social hierarchy that can be, no honour, no duty, no trust, no true friendship. Their community is built on common lust and common fear, that is all. I do not see particular loyalty to anything except their passions.
I wonder what if any influences from Sikhism were used- being a warrior and protector are large parts of their religion, and I could see future space fantasy powers totally manipulating such beliefs to their own ends. Love these videos- they really have helped with introducing people to the world of Dune and why it should be considered a literary classic and worth reading.
Weren't the Sikhs born from a hatred of the Muslims who had conquered India?
Islam * not sikhism. funny enough........ sikhism is influenced from Islam
@@ahmadfrhan5265 Allah hu akbar
@@ahmadfrhan5265 Both of you are wrong. The Imperial Army is visually reminiscent of Hindu culture (red mark on forehead and three stripes on uniform, three stripes are drawn horizontally on a practising Shaivite Hindu's forehead as well), and Mongolian culture sonically.
@@JohnAutumn we are speaking about Freemen the main characters and leading the story not these guys
I personally saw many connections between the Sardaukar and Bishido. There is nothing more powerful than giving a man a purpose, and nothing more dangerous after training.
I never thought of them having a religion but could clearly see Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" and Nietzsche's influence strongly at work with their beliefs and training.
Yes i can see survival of the fittest being held in high regards on a planet that can easily kill you. Where being nice can cause you or even worst your whole group to die.
Tidbit Darwin never said in any of his works survival of the fittest. That was newspaper reporters. What he said was. Whatever traits a creature has that helped them live long enough to have offsprings. Gets carried over to the next generation. Examples of a group of weak nerds were able to outsmart super strong guys and make kids over many generations. The kids would most likely be really smart but average to weak in strength.
And take the peacock. Having large, bright and heavy feathers makes them easily killed by predators. But the ones that survive kept the traits for flashy feathers(also because the females like that)
Darwin was actually not a proponent of 'social darwinism ' and Nietzsche's ubermensch was actually a construct to displace the impending nihilism brought about by a pending directionless, faithless, atheistic society that dethroned the concept of God. He was to be more their new moral center, a transcendent being bound by no previous allegiance and morality, instead creating a new morality. 😬😁
Except Darwin's natural selection involved contingency, not the utilization of harshness to refine a population, and Nietzsche's repulsive nonsense (probably ghost written by his sister) only works if you sit in an attic lip-syncing to Black Sabbath. You take that crap into public, fiscal, military or political life and you're just a nihilist. There's no functional group that can run on Nietzschean lines, the collossal inefficiency, infighting and waste of the Third Reich confirmed this starkly.
I think Herbert had a vaguer idea of a millenias-old caste that persisted in spite of it's savagery, not because of it. Backed by powerful interests to be used, kept out of leadership in either culture, trade or politics.
They were always religious.
Everyone has a religion. Not sure how people don't understand this axiom of human coding.
Sardukar and Fremen both highlight the genetics vs environment discussion that was ongoing at the time Frank Herbert wrote Dune.
Being a casual Dune fan, I had never thought of the Religion aspect of them. Thank you very much, love these vids you do to help folks get a deeper appreciation of the Books!
I just wandering and reviewing your old dune lore vids and then you drop this!
Happy:HHHHÄÄÄÄÄMMMBÄÄÄÄÄMMMBÄÄBÎÎÎLL HÄMBÔRÄRÎMMM BÊNNNBØLÊNN Noises!
Frank Herbert's quote is one of the most insightful in military history. This is THE playbook for forging an elite force.
The way Denis portrayed the Sardaukar's war preparation reminded me of the War rituals performed by Hindu warriors. The blood marks on their forehead is what's know as 'Tilak' in Hindu culture and the blood for that mark comes from sacrifices to the Gods which also relates to the same war rituals I mentioned above. Whereas the Sardaukar's way of fighting and the type of blades used comes from the Samurai culture in Early Japan.
Babu delete ur comment. Don't let know world chhatriya secret or our ally sikh budhha warrior. U r sikh Or rajput. Keep hidden be hidden. Time will come, be silent till that plz
@@FatimaShaikhUAE Lmao
I have studied theology and consider myself a very religious person. However, I am also former U.S. soldier and know that the key to modern western warfare is that there are inviolable rules when we must engage in armed conflict. I find it very interesting and disturbing that soldiers who believe they fight with God’s imprimatur seem to fight with no limits or constraints. They perpetrate some of the most inhumane atrocities known to us. Mixing a fighting force with religious fanaticism is like playing with gasoline and fire 🔥. Just my humble opinion. Thanks for the video!
Absolutely, but history shows us that the human capacity for darkness increases the greater the perception of the threat. So, if you study human psychology you will see that religious zeal is less about God, and more about embedding a particular set of rules within a population. And the tension between God as Love and Unity, and the human tendency to strive to order chaos, and to reject uncertainty, expressed as God as Order and Hierarchy, runs through most of the major religions. And rulers have harnessed both to establish order. As civilisation is leveraging of people and Nature to ensure survival, Love and Order are woven through it. We see it in States seeking to monopolise violence to cope with threats to their survival, and the differences in how they approach this derived from their cultures. So, commenters have noted that Herbert may have drawn on the history of the Jannissaries from early Islamic Egypt, but I also see hints of the Samurai too. Both cultures were ones where death was always close, and ritual and honor codes cemented their positions in society, and their attitude to violence reflected their major cultural influences, and in many ways, fragile societies. Civil wars were commonplace, based on religion or political conflicts. And these militaries reflected their time and place.
Today, with much more stability, we are more fastidious and cut off in the West from the reality of killing another human being, and so our Military norms reflect that. We envisag we can eventually delegate it completely to technology, or eliminate the need completely. That's the ideal at least. But the result is the same, because we have not evolved far enough to do so yet. May we all find peace.
@@BigHenFor Interesting thoughts. I’m not so sure we’re all that divorced from killing and violence. It seems men in power are just as willing )if not more so) to use death and violence to maintain and grow their power - by any means necessary. I believe the key to a more just and equitable society begins by recognizing the humanity of the other and the sacredness of that humanity.
That's why fighting for a cause beyond yourself works to inspire the man to absolute devotion and loyalty as well as personal... sacrifice...
The religious symbology of the selusa secundus scene is fascinating. Three red stripes on the uniform (a holdover from the Christian trinity?)the blood anointing on the forehead (Celtic blood rituals?) you see the sun above the stone column and I can’t help but think of Stonehenge. I’m reminded of the Viking berserkers. I can’t remember who but someone in another vid described the sardaukar as Viking samurai. I think what is most interesting about the upcoming clash of cultures is the materially successful empire and the completely unwavering dedication of the fremen. The sardaukar served because they had to. The fremen server because they wanted to.
Great video. One thing I would add is that I think DV is dropping a hint that the BG are involved in the creation and maintenance of this Sardaukar religion. Which although not mentioned in the book, would chime with the Missionaria Protectiva's work.
I would draw your attention to 1:38 in your video, where we see robed female figures anointing the cadres.
Great spot my friend and I’m not surprised the BG are involved. The Sardaukar are essentially a tool for The Emperor to use to carry out the BG’s bidding.
Sparta yes, the baby thing isn't a myth thats true, i have seen the bones. , although they dont look to different grom the terrain. But you can find remans over 2 and a half thousand years later . Although other cultures did it too , Romans, Scandinavian Vikings, or in Asia.
In my opinion I felt the Sardukar 'pulled water' from a few wells of inspiration. The japanese warrior monks, the Sohei. The Spartans as you mentioned, the sword schools of the 17th & 18th centuries...And finally the obvious association with the ottoman turk Janissary who themselves were similarly cultivated, and elevated to compel loyalty. It was nearly a direct steal in many ways
Excellent video as always!
You have the best voice, Elaine!!! You should do more streams with Jay!!
As I recall, in one of the Dune sequels (I think it's Messiah but I'm not sure), Irulan's sister orders a Sardaukar Bashar to convert to the Fremen religion in order to understand why it makes the Fremen so powerful.
Didn't Herbert say the reason why the Sardaukar were not a match for the Fremen was due to their lack of religion. It was the religious zeal, the holy war/jihad (NOT crusade as they substituted in the movie), that powered the Fremen. They were holy warrior, fighting FOR something vs. the Sardaukar who fought simply to fight. The pursuit of excellence, being the best drove them vs the Fremen's religious zeal.
I wished that in the film the Sardaukar would have showcased a fighting style that illustrated their brutality more, because in a written story the fighting scenes are easier to portray one side is superior to the other because you are told who won, you know you get to make it up in your head filling the details. But I feel Villeneuve missed the chance to actually SHOW it in their fighting sequences. In my opinion they didn't look any 'better' or 'superior' while fighting the Freman or the Atreides... they just happened to win because the story obviously dictates so. That of course is nit-picking.
I'd have never thought of this. Great video Cookie!
It's worth mentioning they have "Sardukar" written inverted on their butcheeks in Comic Sans.
Truly mysterious fictional beings that never existed.
Just finishing on "Heretics of Dune". I've almost forgotten who Sardaukar were! Thanks for reminding me!
I enjoy your perspective very much! Keep up the great work!
I think this strong focus on religion is neither entirely represented by the Frank Herbert nor the Chris Herbert Canon. Especially the Prequels make it clear, that the Sardaukar are mainly a result of the harsh environment, and the abuse of existing Sardaukar of the prisoners, only leaving the strongest to survive, and the Corrinos on purpose keeping Selusa a pit they can dump prisoners into from the million worlds they rule. I think the religious interpretation the early books might hint of Frank also retreat a bit into the pure psychological fervor, while the Fremen are the truly religious Zealots. It is certainly an interesting thought to ponder about their beliefs, but I think the people there simply believed in survival and strength, and actually not believing in anything larger, this was a weakness in a way. Also, while Zensunni are mentioned in both canons (or even explained in the prequels) on Selusa, neither canon makes sense to see the Sardaukar as strictly Zensunni descendants, as it is quite clear, that it is a prison planet, to put people there, from other planets. If it were only the native population, they would have died out.
I love that they did them justice in this film… god knows David Lynch’s adaptation left a LOT to be desired (their significance was not made as clear to the overall plot, and when you finally do see them in battle in that film they look ridiculous in over-sized rubber suits
The hazmat suits confused me too. CDCaudaukar😄
Excellent upload, Congrats on the imminent 100k, very much deserved.
The Sadukar are the Corino answer to the Holy army of the Catholic Church during the era of the crusades and the early renaissance. Though there are other influences such as the roman legions, first being recruited from Rome and Roman territories then slipping and lowering standards to be less than perfect, and allowing mercenaries from foreign states to be the primary legionnaires, so too did the Sadurkar as you stated slipped in their standards. Though conversely the Freman are much like the Goths, visa Goths and Guls, whom learned the tactics and methodology of the Roman legions and used that knowledge to sack Rome and carve out a new order. Both cases the opposition knew its enemy well and had advanced counter tactics to take advantage inherited weaknesses that were never addressed in the ideology of the army they faced.
Hearing the dune lores from you is always a pleasure
To motivate people to something as fundamentally inhumane as war, they need to believe their cause is completely right, they will go to a Heaven if they're killed, and God(s) will forgive and erase any awful thing they do along the way.
I disagree. You can see quite well with current events in the real world, that all you need to make people become inhumane in wars, is the first part, believing they are right. No heaven or religion needed. Maybe not even the being right part, just the "ability to do stuff without consequence".
Heinrich Himmiler's SS were also taught religious aspects of Norse mythology and the theory of racial superiority.
I always found the Sardaukar more interesting and convincing than the Fremen.
It's difficult to draw an appropriate historical analogy to the Sardaukar when we know so little about their strategy and logistics. The tactics they are shown too rely upon are very individual soldier focused and limited in sophistication. They land on a planet, storm out and kill everything which resist. No use of combined arms, task deployed weapon systems, no navy, no armour, no air force, no artillery. No engineers, sappers, drivers or logistician, not to mention a leadership staff. I don't think Frank Herbert were either interested in, or knew very much about the intricacies of state warfare.
That they are referred to as deploying in legions would suggest they are modelled on the Imperial Roman Army though.
Oh yeah, I came to that same conclusion as well. Herbert was clueless or intentionally chose not to delve into such intricacies and sadly, Dune suffers for it. While warfare is not the main plot point, it does make his world building suffer. Especially in regards to the relationship between lasers and shields. He fails to understand how the arms race works. No one in their right mind ever would have switched back to melee as a primary form of weapon. Plate Armor foreshadowed the demise of melee combat, then later black powder spelled its end. Even if one adheres to Dune's logic, then all one has to do is wear plate-mail underneath a shield belt and becomes nigh invulnerable to melee weapons. As in-world logic dictates anything other than a bladed weapon would be ineffective. Anything that could defeat Plate Mail, would be beaten by a shield, as it would have to slow down enough to bypass and thus be unable to penetrate the plate armor. The weak points in plate armor could easily be protected by futuristic materials or even just chain-mail. Thus in the end, forcing militaries right back to ranged weaponry.
If Lasers cause nuclear explosions, then use ballistic weaponry that cause explosions. Even if they cannot pass the shield, the kinetic force will pass the shield and cause internal bleeding and or just knock someone out cold from the force of the impact. The American military figured out that while the armor plating on Humvees was protecting soldiers from the explosion, it did not stop the kinetic force from the explosion traveling through the armor up the seats, and ripping through the soldier's bodies. Causing lethal internal bleeding in many cases. Thus, one does not need to physically touch an opponent. Physics can often do the work for you.
Frank wanted a big scary elite group, so he could have his even more elite group trounce them. The Sardaukar don't really make sense, and the Fremen beating them really don't make sense.
@@DarkAshenfall That's a great point I hadn't thought of before! Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Remember that Herbert badly wanted to justify a medieval-style setting and warfare. The Butlerian Jihad regressed technology and "modern" warfare. Shields made guns useless and lasguns suicidal. Thus swords and melee came back in style probably because the author thought it was cool.
That and Herbert wasn't a military logistics kind of writer just like Tolkien wasn't a "Aragorn's tax policy" kind of writer because those are not important in their stories.
@@DarkAshenfall
My headcanon for a seeming lack of futuristic sword-proof armor in Dune is melee weapons in Dune are basically kinda like armor-piercing bullets and Dune armor protects against everything else except for weapons designed for it and the Imperium goes along with it because thats just the way things are.
I just found your channel and you have amazing content but your voice is just perfect
The religion is very interesting I probably would join the fremen, sounds like a great religion tbh
The more I learn about Dune and WH40K the more I see the huge influence Herbert had on Games Workshop's grimdark scifi setting.
I dig it. they really are two of the most interesting scifi universes, IMO.
As a Brit who lived for 25 years in the US, the cult of the military is obviously alive and well over there. Someone's in the army for a couple of years and their identity as a "veteran" is set for life, their character unquestionable and their actions justified. Describing them as paid killers protecting corporate interests doesn't go down well. I might learn to trust someone _despite_ the fact that they were a marine but never, ever _because_ of that and speaking honestly with them, they know why I feel that way and all know at least one comrade they'd kill before letting them near their family. When they are conditioned to a hierarchy, those with the right mind set put civilians at the bottom. I point out that I outrank them since I can tell their commander in chief to go to hell.
Civilian = Child Foreign Civilian = Dirt 😂😂😂
Never understood why the call soldiers straight out of training veterans. Every other nation you have to serve a certain amount of time going back to the Romans and beyond. When I hear veteran I think of a high ranking officer or someone retired.
As a US citizen, I think the veneration of someone because they were or are in the military is ridiculous. Yes, I appreciate their service. If they were deployed into conflict and were actually involved in the conflict, it’s valued and appreciated. But I know way too many people that expect everything to be given to them just because they were in some branch of the military. And having had many family members in the military at some point, it’s a very messed up system. I know some people who were in conflict, lost fellow soldiers or were injured. That’s the tough part. They really did and do suffer for the decisions of politicians. Some of them do it for the love of their country. Some do it for the benefits or because they feel it’s their best option.
Not just the older children that didn't exhibit desired strengths, but ANY newborn that had an obvious weakness or abnormality. The Spartans had a particular cliff along the shores used for this discarding.
Lupe fiasco rapped about spice in a song and brought me here….now I’m hooked lol
Great commentary Nerd Cookies!
Ironically their survival of the fittest, i.e. letting the young die in harsh conditions might actually be detrimental to their philosophy of honing the perfect soldier. An example would be that many children that are small at birth can turn out to be very large and strong adults and vice-versa.
Interesting. I played water polo for the U18 US National Team at 15, and I was the bigger then two 6 foot “runts” that both grew to be 6’4”. Lol I stayed the same and I would have liked to be slightly taller for basketball . But yea, a lot of growth happens late adolescence
I would expect elements of other religions, i.e. The Veneration of Hachiman, Shiva or other similar deities would find purchase in their beliefs...great content
Frank Herbert might have get is inspiration for the Sardaukar and the Fremen primarily on the Knights Templars, the Janissaries, the Mameluks, the Sicarii Jews and the first muslim arabic force who fought with Muhammad. But we have to consider that other similar elite forces or groups of resistance fighters could have inspired him as well: the Varigians, the Spartan hoplites, Alexander's Companions Cavalry and the Elite Silver Shiels heavy infantry, the Samurai, the ninja/shinobi, the Immortals, the Afghans Mujahidin, the Assassins order, the Praetorian Guard, the Native Americans tribes resistance and so on.
You do such great research on all your videos!
Good work. Thanks for the upload. I'm looking for a comparison in history and come to the conclusion that the Sardaukar are a mixture of the Janissaries, kidnapped and Islamized, fanatical Christian children who fought for the Ottomans and the German SS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Herbert took his cue from them.
So the sadaukar and really the embodiment of the USMC. I will accept that.
Love your Dune videos keep up the great work
Great creative, lore, content, concepts & vid here young lady!
The Sardaukar chant may have been inspired by Mongolian throat singing while sounding otherworldly and futuristic at the same time.
The Sardaucar home world in the books was also a brutal prison planet and any prisoner that could survive there was re-educated into a Sardaucar.
As always, your provision of the lore of Dune is superb, _bar none!_
Im bias, I liked the Sardukar more than the Fremen.
In my head canon, they can be equal but different in style, and both could serve the Empire
Good vid. The space suits were so cool. Regards from Malaysian utuber
Love you Nerd Cookie girl ! Peace !
Learned about your channel from Nerdrotic today. Very good production value here! Sub earned! Would love to hear additional commentary about their blood ceremony in the latest movie.
very interesting parallel between the sardaukar and the fremen.
Me, just seeing Duncan Idaho cleave his way through the Sardauker led me to believe that this imperial formidable force wasn't as formidable as they were Harold to be, and the Fremen led by Paul would make short work of them.
im glad i dont live in a time line where the Spartans had this type of tech & zeal.
sounds a bit like the Unsullied ;)
"Conquered by their mind control, they believe it accurate. While it is truly misleading....."
Master class of cinema, just like this scene the whole movie is magnificent
That scene where these guys where crucified upside down, reminds me of that episode on vikings, where they celebrated in opsala. Back then they killed nine of each race as an gift to the northern gods.
Lol now I know where you are getting your info. The appendixes in the first book are pov from in the book written after Paul took the throne. From the pov of the author an unknown force being able to best the sardukar was unthinkable and had to be explained in a way that bows to the new Emperor.
It always startles me when I see that ppl like to forget the life long exposure of the fremen to the spice. The Sardaukar have strict selection, training and willpower but the fremen are simply more human than human. (Which is also a logical break in the whole story by itself - every "lasting" Empire needs an able military and good intel and to have no idea about the long time effect of simply living on that planet is the complete opposite of intel / beeing able.) Sadly, there are some small logic gaps in the great works of ppl who relied on "Spice" too much themselfes. (Herbert, Philip K. Dick....)
You should've said something about the blood sacrifice in that scene. Creepy.
very good analysis
I can’t wait for the fremen to defeat the sarduakar in part 2
The depth of a story is only as good as antagonist. The more intelligent, capable, and cunning the bad guy, the greater the protagonists arc. I hope in Dune II, they expand on the Sardukar, and Feyd-Rautha beyond the 1 dimensional caricature of past attempts.
The Sardaukar's warrior religion sounds like bushido, which was a form of Zen Buddhism combined with Confuciusm practiced by the Samarai in feudal Japan.
1:10 I can understand that Judaism have some kind of warrior traditions in its religion. The latest iteration of that traditions is called the IDF spirit, Ruach Tzahal. Not sure about Islam though. A muslim warrior is called a Ghazi, Gazi or Razzia. The term comes from the word Ghazw. It basically means military expeditions or raiding. Unlike Judaism, the term has more political tones than religion. Frank Herbert made little reference to other famous religion with warrior doctrines like Hinduism's kshatriyas caste or Buddihism's warrior monks. Frank Herbert lumping diverse religious traditions are rifed in Orientalism. Lol
It is shockingly similar to the american medical education system
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I still don't think we can really grasp how truly terrifying the Sardaukar army is, it's so beyond anything humanity has ever known. Also, I always wondered why the first Dune movie had the emperor look so old when the book had him looking in his 30s. Just one of the many departures from the book I suppose.
Nerd Cookies. They were the criminals of the Empire. Thrown into a Atomics blasted wasteland infested with the most dangerous killers (Human & Animal) and conditions in the empire. By the time of the first novel, it was generally believed that one Sardaukar was equal to 100 house soldiers. Their primary purpose was to balance the armies of the Landsraad. To make war for the throne unthinkable. Those 11 year old's were their children.
Then, rumors began circulating that House Atreides soldiers were being trained in a new method.
A combination of Jessica's Bene Gesserit training in Prana-Bindu, close quarter fighting from Duncan, Idaho - a swordmaster of Ginaz and the military tactics of Gurney Halleck. This training was producing an army that could rival the dreaded Sardaukar and possibly put Duke Leto on the throne through a political marriage to Princess Irulan. The emperors’ ego simply couldn't accept that and it drove him into an alliance with Baron Harkonnen. We know what happened then.
The Atreides method did not find its full flowering until Jessica and Paul met and were accepted by the Freman of Sietch Tabr with the creation of the Fedaykin, who thought fighting Sardaukar was fun!
Unfortunately, they ended up in the same problem most movies have. If our modern troops had weapons to defeat their shields, or if the Sardaukar didn't have shields for whatever reason, they wouldn't last against really any of our troops. Their tactics are that bad. They're brutal...but incompetent.
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To be fair, Dune's shields are relatively easy to beat. Redevelop the old Gyrojet pistols and rifles, and add a new feature to the rounds. A secondary propellant that only ignites after the main propellant is expended. It burns longer, at a much lower pressure. The round hits the shield, and keeps pushing, but obviously can't go through because it was "too fast", then the secondary propellant kicks in, and thrusts with sufficiently lower thrust to get through the shield, but still enough to put the spike-like bullet into flesh. Perhaps a fragmentary aspect, with a single explosive compound that ignites as the secondary propellant ends. It would be somewhat complicated, but we have much faster and more effective methods of design and engineering than what were available when Gyrojets were first built.
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Then again, I'd do what the Harkonnen did, and fire a laser at a shield. The only real difference being that I wouldn't bother landing my troops at all. I'd just pick a vehicle or person with a shield, and quietly tag them with a lasgun beam. Boom. No more Arakeen City. No more Atreides, and if the Guild doesn't treat me well...no more spice. You get the entire Imperium by the balls for firing one goddamned weapon. But no...let's do this "plans within plans" dipshittery.