INCREDIBLY nuanced conversation on semantics- awareness and accountability. Context collapse. Kier has been excellent. Absolute Gold. Please have Russell Brand and Trevor Noah on I think they will add incredible perspectives to your ongoing conversation. Keep up the work seriously.
Thank you. Kier is really incredible - bringing complex ideas in really accessible language. We've been trying to get both of them on, so hopefully soon.
Kier had just confirmed the SAYING "Its Not Where you Comr From but where you Going" reading between the lines there was a lot of Truama and Hard times.But he was determined to make it Better for him as well as for others..God Bless you and your Family..And our Man Enough Family Liz,Jamey and Justin💞💞✨✨
The way I LOVVEE kier and them! 😩 This crossover is encouraging and elite 👌🙏 After watching Kier, I’ve just become a bigger fan of him as a human. One thing I noted was that, even during the challenging conversations, he seemed to make everyone feel soo comfortable. I feel like he contributed to ensuring there was equal representation of all voices in the room, and I just LOOVE him for that! 🙌
First time discovering this podcast…. Gaines got me in the door, but the conversation got me to subscribed the podcast. Love the way you all minds work. Very self aware and thoughtful 💚🙏🏾
What a beautiful Soul Kier Gaines is. Thank you for yet again introducing me to such a wonderful man to follow on social media. I love that he was raised by women, and now has a wife and daughters. I realise he didn't have a father figure in his life but he certainly must have had some powerful women to raise such a fine young Spirited man.
That was an eloquent discussion of “toxic masculinity”. I had completely forgotten that Justin spent the first chapter of his book explaining why he didn’t use that term, and it made me realize I used the term when I was trying to introduce my father to the book. He latched onto it and we ended up having a similar discussion and arrived at a similar place as y’all did. Then he reached out not too long ago and asked me “who’s the guy who talks about toxic masculinity?” Knowing him, I think that means he has gone and picked up Man Enough. I’m looking forward to hearing his thoughts soon. Thank you all for showing this discussion and so many others. I love when things get uncomfortable because y’all handle it so well and with such insight and grace. I am having more of these kinds of conversations with the men in my life and am so thankful to have an example set for me. Love you all 💜
Thank you for sharing with us, Christopher. We're happy to hear that you're working through this and having the hard conversations with your father. That's what will help each of us, and the world, begin to change, slowly but surely.
Not so much about right / wrong, black / white, man / woman...semantics. More about sharing experiences, love, compassion,accountability,...humanhood. That conversation was all about it. And that, was great. Thanks Justin, Liz, Jamey and Kier.
Came to watch this after recently coming across one of Kier's videos on IG and following him. Incredible discussion. I'm always challenged and encouraged by what you all do. Thank you so much for sharing this work!
I went into this Podcast saying, he too young to learn anything from. Boy was I wrong. Kier, you are amazing. You put a lot of great and nutritious food on the table. You brought life. Thank you Man Enough Podcast for this talk 🙏🏾💜👏🏿👍🏾
LOVED this episode, and the conversation about the use of words, politicized versus coddling was fantastic. I’m on both sides and have had this conversation with a couple friends. I just finished Colin in Black and White on Netflix. I NEED Colin Kaepernick on this show please. Would love to hear him speak, especially with Jamey. Also about the show, and it’s response. I hadn’t read any reviews until just now but I’m curious to hear him talk about it.
Fantastic episode! I was hoping you all would have Kier on some day and this absolutely did not disappoint. As I've examined this topic over and over again in my own life, it seems to me that when it comes to the term "toxic masculinity", I think that a part of men healing will be taking that term back from those that have put so much venom into it. The interesting part about it is that the very system that amplifies those masculine traits in us that can be toxic (don't show your emotions, don't feel pain, women are objects) is the exact same system that makes us defensive to those terms and others we need to deeply understand, like safe spaces, feminism, etc. I also think it's crucial that we have folks like Liz and Tony Porter that have given us terms like conscious masculinity and healthy manhood so that we can differentiate between the helpful and the hurtful so when we have these conversations we can have a direction to go in for context and clarity. It seems to lead to a whole lot more of those "Ooooohhhh!" moments. It's shows like this that allow us to be conscious to what's happening and to realize what is toxic so that we can make those changes in our lives and maybe even show others in our own circle what that looks like. Incremental, yet real change. Thanks for all you do, Team ME!
@@WeAreManEnough That's incredibly exciting! I did the "A Call To Men" Training Institute this summer and I'm reading his book now. I was introduced to him by -- surprise, surprise -- the Man Enough #MeToo episode. I can't wait!
Just found this podcast channel today and first video was this! Oh my... Its so great to see, hear and be a part of these deep, open, brave and uncomfortable conversations which are so needed. Thank you!
This was the third episode that I binged, am currently home, and I have to say that all three were amazing listens! Great conversations and discussions.
Wowww this was wonderfull!!Sending some love to you guys! Kier,Jamey, Liz , Justin & all the crew behind the camera just amazing guyss! So happy to be here as always..Been here since the trailer of this podcast..n guess what just like any other man who's here I suppose from Justin's TED talk! I just love the therapy sessions here & eye-openers which I haven't thought about or spoken about to someone which makes me want to..I'll always listen to you guys and implement them in my life! Thank you super grateful! Btw this episode was bang on! Much love :-)
The discussion about terms is so valuable to help us all be able to stay ingaged together. Again, another sigh of relief int this episode with you three and Kier.
Absolutely love this episode! I didnt know kier and he is an incredible beautiful human being. I loved the way he express his thoughts and the vibe that he has. I really like see people like this. Thank you for sharing these amazing conversation and also thank you for sharing the little conflicts that sometimes you have here. For me its very valuable seeing "healthy" conflicts between justin and jamey or liz and justin or whatever combination you can imagine. Its valuable because i can see that the thing its getting hot but at the same time, i see how you tried to understand the different points of view and articulate your opinions without attacking others. Its beautiful, i can see that this is a safe space, you have room for express yourself even if sometimes its a little umcomfortable. Then when things are more calm, you can try again to see the different points or not, but its always from a position of love and respect, even when you disagree. Its really beautiful. Thank you for your work and thank you for taking the time to make the subtitles! :) Lots love! PD: i think Liz its an beautiful women but god, in this episode, with this glasses she seems like an hilarious super top poker player, i really like the look hahhahah
I look forward to listening to an episode of man enough each time I make my commute to work or watching on UA-cam when I can. I like that Jamey challenges everyone in a way that is educative yet respectful, there were many valid points made in this episode. I purchased Liz’s book a few months back since Justin said her book was better lol and was lucky enough to get the only copy left in my library. Currently on chapter 4, love that the book has so much data to back it up,some that are shocking. Thank you all for what you do, waiting for Will Smith to hop on the podcast!
Thank you, Joe. We're so glad you're here and enjoying the content, and even going deeper by reading the books. Liz's is really an incredible treasure trove of data and insights. We're waiting for Will too. :)
I've tried therapy and I didn't get anything from it and I felt it was a waste of time and money. I often found it awkward talking to therapists. I think what the therapy community gets wrong about men is that we are different than women and we do not socialize the way women do. Studies have shown that men do better in therapy when they are led by male therapists and are in group therapy. Many therapy sessions is a face to face conversation with a woman who does not know about the nuances of what men go through.
It's really, really hard to find the right therapist. It's like dating in a lot of ways. If you don't find the right fit, it probably won't work. If you do find the right fit, it can be incredibly powerful. Also, a lot of people only think of therapy as the traditional Freudian approach of sitting in a room and talking, with the intention of being analyzed by the therapist. There are many other forms of therapy, some of which are largely non-verbal, so perhaps it's worth exploring whether there's a different approach that might be more effective for you. Thank you for being here and for sharing your experience with us.
Lately I been feeling lost, been working on myself and wanting to be better but is hard whenever making a mistake and feeling I'm still not the best version of myself... thank you for this, it truly helps to remind myself that i am enough and is ok to make mistakes and continue learning
Favorite episode. I get what Justin was saying. Like you could lose potential allies and people healing and changing by using a word that makes them turn off to the discussion.
First of all, I LOVE this podcast, and am listening to every episode. Thank you for these discussions. They really give me hope, when I feel like I'm losing that hope due to the unwillingness of the men in my life to engage openly in these discussions with me. I get a lot of push back on the basic terminology as well... feminism & toxic masculinity being the hot button labels for sure. I understand the push back on the term toxic masculinity because it basically blames men for all of the issues within the patriarchy (recognizing that men are the ones with the power in the patriarchy). So I try to use the term toxic socialization instead, recognizing that it is the way the we are socialized that creates the issues; and recognizing that women have also learned very toxic behaviors. I try to present the discussion as Toxic Socialization = toxic masculinity + toxic femininity. That goes some way in bridging the gap. It helps to have the terms because they provide a language for the discourse, but they can be so polarizing.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. It is so hard to find terminology that is not polarizing. These constructs are embedded so deeply in our society and ourselves from birth.
I felt conflicted like liz and jamey with the term “toxic masculinity” like sort of defensive myself about other people being defensive to the usage of the word lol like get a clue and learn what it means before you get all defensive right? but now it’s clear as day IMO: LANGUAGE AND WORDING IS EVERYTHING i've always felt that way now i see it maters more especially when it comes to contreversial topics of conversation like white priviledge, sexism, racism, so YES you abseolutely have to watch what you say and how you say it when youre trying to get someone to see the wrong they're doing, its unfortunate but the opposite tactic/approach triggers that defensive feeling of being attacked majority of the time. I believe the reason why is because nobody likes to feel like the bad guy or bad person, and as we know we don’t learn and grow from shame and embarrassment - brene brown talks about that in her book i forget the name - and when you use words like “toxic masculinity” its the same thing as calling someone “too sensitive” in the midst of an arguement. Soon as I linked those 2 examples it made perfect sense to me why we should'nt use the word. The only way to get people to truly LISTEN is to meet them at their level. It’s not about coddling or holding back its about mindfulness and intention even for the oppressed and the slightest shift in wording and language can make someone go from being open to learning and making changes to completely shutting off and getting defensive, I know because I am that way too. and now because you chose to use a deratory term AGAISNT someone in the hopes to get your point across youve lost them and who knows how many more people just like them who as justin said are probably the people or in this case the “men” who needed to hear the message the most. We can get to us as people or men being more open and less defesnive about a word like toxic but that kind of growth only happens AFTER we first even learn that we’re being defensive to begin with, and we won’t hear it if you call us OUT as oppose to in, as Justin says. Liz and Jamey always talk about it - it’s steps - nothing happens over night. People who want to inform others - their first step is learning how to communicate with the peoeple their trying to reach. Approach is everything. This was anotheer beautiful video and conversation, I larned a lot. Thank you for these amaazing guests and topics
loved this episode. i personally replace "toxic" with "distorted" or "misconcieved". it's not about the man itself but about his distorted perception of what masculinity is. does not always help because some of them will still feel attacked: "how dare you say out loud that i don't understand something! you are embarrassing me (in front of all these people)!" it's mostly about shame and percieved shame, so as men modeling that not knowing/ not understanding/ not being right, is nothing to be ashamed of, even at risk of being ridiculed for it, is the best and bravest thing you can do as an ally!
We certainly think so, except that we're working to reframe the entire idea that there are certain things that are "masculine" or "feminine". These are human characteristics that have been organized into this binary construct, which is oppressive to all people. That very structure is unhealthy, which means that adhering to the confines of that structure certainly creates unhealthy situations and experiences at times. Thank you for being here. Please keep bringing thoughtful questions and learning with us.
38:03: "We deny manhood to marginalized communities." #ActuallyAutistic Felt less than for pretty much my whole life. Anyone on the spectrum struggling with claiming manhood while trying to not turn into Nate from _Ted Lasso_ (i.e., not turning into an asshole at the first taste of power, prestige, and/or respect)?
Thank you so much for sharing. Finding that balance between confidence and comfort in your self-identity without falling into the traps of privilege or empowerment is so hard. Thank you for being here and for asking that question; that's a huge step in the right direction.
22:04 the brother ask why do it take spaces like this for us man to open up.well for one y'all have made it a save spaces to open up and be transparent and real second us men process differently the women do. women process things through talking we process things through silence so we can give good answer so ladies it not that we not answer right then and there we just process things differently that how are brain is wired
I am also conflicted about "toxic masculinity", because it can feel like mens' comfort is one of the most important things in this world. Just one example, out of many but: men's birth control being pulled immediately, because they had depression as a side effect. Women have had that (and pages and pages of side effects) since the beginning. It's acceptable when a woman experiences it, but as soon as man does, it's an emergency. I understand what you mean about wanting to welcome people in, and not having men peg you as someone to ignore, but...it can be really frustrating. Compare how BIPOC, women, LGBTQIA+ community, people with disabilities, etc. are made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, and bad about being who they are constantly. But make a man - especially a white man - feel bad or uncomfortable? That's a no-no. Everyone else has to live through it, sit with those feelings, work through it, understand it, and learn about it, but men can't look up a definition or watch a 5 min video talking about it? They can't sit with it for 5 minutes to actually see the phrase "toxic masculinity", and see that there's an adjective? They can understand "broken car" doesn't mean all cars are broken, it's just an adjectives to describe that car? I know I'm going off on a rant here, and I do understand what you mean. And I do care about men an their well-being, and love who men are and what they are. But, as someone who is in some of those other groups, that is negatively impacted by toxic masculinity, it can be so frustrating, and can honestly hurt that once again, the world and language has to accommodate men's comfort, because they can't sit with discomfort.
We completely agree. It's so complicated. It sometimes comes down to goals - if we alienate too many men, whether we think they should feel that way or not, then are we succeeding in our mission to learn and grow together, to create more empathy, to change the hearts and minds of those men? It's really a fine balance between speaking our truth in a way that is accessible and being so careful that we're pandering; we of course never want to do the latter.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Wooow this was one of my favourite episodes, so much intentionality and truth within the narrative. Such blessing ✨
Thank you!
INCREDIBLY nuanced conversation on semantics- awareness and accountability. Context collapse. Kier has been excellent. Absolute Gold. Please have Russell Brand and Trevor Noah on I think they will add incredible perspectives to your ongoing conversation. Keep up the work seriously.
Thank you. Kier is really incredible - bringing complex ideas in really accessible language. We've been trying to get both of them on, so hopefully soon.
Kier had just confirmed the SAYING "Its Not Where you Comr From but where you Going" reading between the lines there was a lot of Truama and Hard times.But he was determined to make it Better for him as well as for others..God Bless you and your Family..And our Man Enough Family Liz,Jamey and Justin💞💞✨✨
Thanks, Gwen. So much comes down to attitude and keeping perspective.
The way I LOVVEE kier and them! 😩
This crossover is encouraging and elite 👌🙏
After watching Kier, I’ve just become a bigger fan of him as a human.
One thing I noted was that, even during the challenging conversations, he seemed to make everyone feel soo comfortable. I feel like he contributed to ensuring there was equal representation of all voices in the room, and I just LOOVE him for that! 🙌
We agree - he really brings everyone in.
First time discovering this podcast…. Gaines got me in the door, but the conversation got me to subscribed the podcast. Love the way you all minds work. Very self aware and thoughtful 💚🙏🏾
So glad you found us and will be with us going forward! 100 episodes so far, so let us know if you're looking for anything specific.
I’ve listened to every single episode of man enough and I have loved them all but this episode?? It was on another level
Kier is really a special human. So glad it connected with you.
What a beautiful Soul Kier Gaines is. Thank you for yet again introducing me to such a wonderful man to follow on social media. I love that he was raised by women, and now has a wife and daughters. I realise he didn't have a father figure in his life but he certainly must have had some powerful women to raise such a fine young Spirited man.
That was an eloquent discussion of “toxic masculinity”. I had completely forgotten that Justin spent the first chapter of his book explaining why he didn’t use that term, and it made me realize I used the term when I was trying to introduce my father to the book. He latched onto it and we ended up having a similar discussion and arrived at a similar place as y’all did. Then he reached out not too long ago and asked me “who’s the guy who talks about toxic masculinity?” Knowing him, I think that means he has gone and picked up Man Enough. I’m looking forward to hearing his thoughts soon.
Thank you all for showing this discussion and so many others. I love when things get uncomfortable because y’all handle it so well and with such insight and grace. I am having more of these kinds of conversations with the men in my life and am so thankful to have an example set for me. Love you all 💜
Thank you for sharing with us, Christopher. We're happy to hear that you're working through this and having the hard conversations with your father. That's what will help each of us, and the world, begin to change, slowly but surely.
Not so much about right / wrong, black / white, man / woman...semantics. More about sharing experiences, love, compassion,accountability,...humanhood. That conversation was all about it. And that, was great. Thanks Justin, Liz, Jamey and Kier.
Came to watch this after recently coming across one of Kier's videos on IG and following him. Incredible discussion. I'm always challenged and encouraged by what you all do. Thank you so much for sharing this work!
Thank you!
This is what enlightenment looks like!
Great content. Deep dives and very intimate.
I went into this Podcast saying, he too young to learn anything from. Boy was I wrong. Kier, you are amazing. You put a lot of great and nutritious food on the table. You brought life. Thank you Man Enough Podcast for this talk 🙏🏾💜👏🏿👍🏾
Definitely not too young. :) He's so wonderful and insightful.
LOVED this episode, and the conversation about the use of words, politicized versus coddling was fantastic. I’m on both sides and have had this conversation with a couple friends.
I just finished Colin in Black and White on Netflix. I NEED Colin Kaepernick on this show please. Would love to hear him speak, especially with Jamey. Also about the show, and it’s response. I hadn’t read any reviews until just now but I’m curious to hear him talk about it.
We would love that too. Working on it!
Fantastic episode! I was hoping you all would have Kier on some day and this absolutely did not disappoint.
As I've examined this topic over and over again in my own life, it seems to me that when it comes to the term "toxic masculinity", I think that a part of men healing will be taking that term back from those that have put so much venom into it. The interesting part about it is that the very system that amplifies those masculine traits in us that can be toxic (don't show your emotions, don't feel pain, women are objects) is the exact same system that makes us defensive to those terms and others we need to deeply understand, like safe spaces, feminism, etc. I also think it's crucial that we have folks like Liz and Tony Porter that have given us terms like conscious masculinity and healthy manhood so that we can differentiate between the helpful and the hurtful so when we have these conversations we can have a direction to go in for context and clarity. It seems to lead to a whole lot more of those "Ooooohhhh!" moments.
It's shows like this that allow us to be conscious to what's happening and to realize what is toxic so that we can make those changes in our lives and maybe even show others in our own circle what that looks like. Incremental, yet real change. Thanks for all you do, Team ME!
Thank you so much, Ron. We really appreciate the thoughtfulness that you bring, week after week. We have an episode with Tony Porter coming soon too!
@@WeAreManEnough That's incredibly exciting! I did the "A Call To Men" Training Institute this summer and I'm reading his book now. I was introduced to him by -- surprise, surprise -- the Man Enough #MeToo episode. I can't wait!
@@ronsparkman4913 Oh wonderful! It's a great one and we'll release it in early 2022.
❤❤❤❤Very insightful comment.
Just found this podcast channel today and first video was this! Oh my... Its so great to see, hear and be a part of these deep, open, brave and uncomfortable conversations which are so needed.
Thank you!
Thank you for joining us. So glad you found us and that it's resonating. Let us know if you have any feedback.
What a beautiful healing conversation!
We agree!
This was the third episode that I binged, am currently home, and I have to say that all three were amazing listens! Great conversations and discussions.
Thank you for checking us out. There are 20 more for you to listen to/watch so far. :)
Wowww this was wonderfull!!Sending some love to you guys! Kier,Jamey, Liz , Justin & all the crew behind the camera just amazing guyss! So happy to be here as always..Been here since the trailer of this podcast..n guess what just like any other man who's here I suppose from Justin's TED talk! I just love the therapy sessions here & eye-openers which I haven't thought about or spoken about to someone which makes me want to..I'll always listen to you guys and implement them in my life! Thank you super grateful! Btw this episode was bang on! Much love :-)
Thank you so much for your support and kind words. We appreciate you going on this journey with us and welcome any feedback that you might have.
The discussion about terms is so valuable to help us all be able to stay ingaged together. Again, another sigh of relief int this episode with you three and Kier.
Thank you. Yes, so much of this starts with finding common language that helps us start from a place of understanding.
Absolutely love this episode! I didnt know kier and he is an incredible beautiful human being. I loved the way he express his thoughts and the vibe that he has. I really like see people like this. Thank you for sharing these amazing conversation and also thank you for sharing the little conflicts that sometimes you have here. For me its very valuable seeing "healthy" conflicts between justin and jamey or liz and justin or whatever combination you can imagine. Its valuable because i can see that the thing its getting hot but at the same time, i see how you tried to understand the different points of view and articulate your opinions without attacking others. Its beautiful, i can see that this is a safe space, you have room for express yourself even if sometimes its a little umcomfortable. Then when things are more calm, you can try again to see the different points or not, but its always from a position of love and respect, even when you disagree. Its really beautiful.
Thank you for your work and thank you for taking the time to make the subtitles! :) Lots love!
PD: i think Liz its an beautiful women but god, in this episode, with this glasses she seems like an hilarious super top poker player, i really like the look hahhahah
Thank you for your kind words and perspective. We appreciate you being here.
This was great. Love, love, love!!! I just love Jamie ❤. Appreciate you guys.
Thank you! We appreciate you too.
I look forward to listening to an episode of man enough each time I make my commute to work or watching on UA-cam when I can. I like that Jamey challenges everyone in a way that is educative yet respectful, there were many valid points made in this episode.
I purchased Liz’s book a few months back since Justin said her book was better lol and was lucky enough to get the only copy left in my library. Currently on chapter 4, love that the book has so much data to back it up,some that are shocking. Thank you all for what you do, waiting for Will Smith to hop on the podcast!
Thank you, Joe. We're so glad you're here and enjoying the content, and even going deeper by reading the books. Liz's is really an incredible treasure trove of data and insights.
We're waiting for Will too. :)
What a delightful episode! :)
We agree!
I've tried therapy and I didn't get anything from it and I felt it was a waste of time and money. I often found it awkward talking to therapists. I think what the therapy community gets wrong about men is that we are different than women and we do not socialize the way women do. Studies have shown that men do better in therapy when they are led by male therapists and are in group therapy. Many therapy sessions is a face to face conversation with a woman who does not know about the nuances of what men go through.
It's really, really hard to find the right therapist. It's like dating in a lot of ways. If you don't find the right fit, it probably won't work. If you do find the right fit, it can be incredibly powerful. Also, a lot of people only think of therapy as the traditional Freudian approach of sitting in a room and talking, with the intention of being analyzed by the therapist. There are many other forms of therapy, some of which are largely non-verbal, so perhaps it's worth exploring whether there's a different approach that might be more effective for you. Thank you for being here and for sharing your experience with us.
Lately I been feeling lost, been working on myself and wanting to be better but is hard whenever making a mistake and feeling I'm still not the best version of myself... thank you for this, it truly helps to remind myself that i am enough and is ok to make mistakes and continue learning
Thank you for sharing, Juan. You are indeed enough. Sending you love and strength. We're all learning together.
Favorite episode. I get what Justin was saying. Like you could lose potential allies and people healing and changing by using a word that makes them turn off to the discussion.
Yes, it's a really challenging fine line.
First of all, I LOVE this podcast, and am listening to every episode. Thank you for these discussions. They really give me hope, when I feel like I'm losing that hope due to the unwillingness of the men in my life to engage openly in these discussions with me. I get a lot of push back on the basic terminology as well... feminism & toxic masculinity being the hot button labels for sure. I understand the push back on the term toxic masculinity because it basically blames men for all of the issues within the patriarchy (recognizing that men are the ones with the power in the patriarchy). So I try to use the term toxic socialization instead, recognizing that it is the way the we are socialized that creates the issues; and recognizing that women have also learned very toxic behaviors. I try to present the discussion as Toxic Socialization = toxic masculinity + toxic femininity. That goes some way in bridging the gap. It helps to have the terms because they provide a language for the discourse, but they can be so polarizing.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. It is so hard to find terminology that is not polarizing. These constructs are embedded so deeply in our society and ourselves from birth.
I LOVE IT! I LOVE IT! I LOVE IT!!!
I felt conflicted like liz and jamey with the term “toxic masculinity” like sort of defensive myself about other people being defensive to the usage of the word lol like get a clue and learn what it means before you get all defensive right? but now it’s clear as day IMO: LANGUAGE AND WORDING IS EVERYTHING i've always felt that way now i see it maters more especially when it comes to contreversial topics of conversation like white priviledge, sexism, racism, so YES you abseolutely have to watch what you say and how you say it when youre trying to get someone to see the wrong they're doing, its unfortunate but the opposite tactic/approach triggers that defensive feeling of being attacked majority of the time.
I believe the reason why is because nobody likes to feel like the bad guy or bad person, and as we know we don’t learn and grow from shame and embarrassment - brene brown talks about that in her book i forget the name - and when you use words like “toxic masculinity” its the same thing as calling someone “too sensitive” in the midst of an arguement. Soon as I linked those 2 examples it made perfect sense to me why we should'nt use the word.
The only way to get people to truly LISTEN is to meet them at their level. It’s not about coddling or holding back its about mindfulness and intention even for the oppressed and the slightest shift in wording and language can make someone go from being open to learning and making changes to completely shutting off and getting defensive, I know because I am that way too. and now because you chose to use a deratory term AGAISNT someone in the hopes to get your point across youve lost them and who knows how many more people just like them who as justin said are probably the people or in this case the “men” who needed to hear the message the most.
We can get to us as people or men being more open and less defesnive about a word like toxic but that kind of growth only happens AFTER we first even learn that we’re being defensive to begin with, and we won’t hear it if you call us OUT as oppose to in, as Justin says. Liz and Jamey always talk about it - it’s steps - nothing happens over night. People who want to inform others - their first step is learning how to communicate with the peoeple their trying to reach. Approach is everything. This was anotheer beautiful video and conversation, I larned a lot. Thank you for these amaazing guests and topics
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughtful response. Kier really is quite amazing.
loved this episode. i personally replace "toxic" with "distorted" or "misconcieved". it's not about the man itself but about his distorted perception of what masculinity is. does not always help because some of them will still feel attacked: "how dare you say out loud that i don't understand something! you are embarrassing me (in front of all these people)!" it's mostly about shame and percieved shame, so as men modeling that not knowing/ not understanding/ not being right, is nothing to be ashamed of, even at risk of being ridiculed for it, is the best and bravest thing you can do as an ally!
What a great reframing! Thanks for your input, as we relinquish the weight of shame together.
1:07:17 just curious, if masculinity can be healthy and unhealthy. Can femininity be healthy and unhealthy as well?
We certainly think so, except that we're working to reframe the entire idea that there are certain things that are "masculine" or "feminine". These are human characteristics that have been organized into this binary construct, which is oppressive to all people. That very structure is unhealthy, which means that adhering to the confines of that structure certainly creates unhealthy situations and experiences at times. Thank you for being here. Please keep bringing thoughtful questions and learning with us.
It would really be interesting if you guys have Nico Tortorella on the podcast. I would love to hear the conversation between you guys and Nico.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Wow,wow💖🔥🌞. Thank you.
Watching s6 e8 of The Goldbergs through the Man Enough lens and realizing Man Enough has fully become a lens through which I now process lol
Nigerian brilliance
38:03: "We deny manhood to marginalized communities."
#ActuallyAutistic
Felt less than for pretty much my whole life. Anyone on the spectrum struggling with claiming manhood while trying to not turn into Nate from _Ted Lasso_ (i.e., not turning into an asshole at the first taste of power, prestige, and/or respect)?
Thank you so much for sharing. Finding that balance between confidence and comfort in your self-identity without falling into the traps of privilege or empowerment is so hard. Thank you for being here and for asking that question; that's a huge step in the right direction.
There she is with data no emotion
22:04 the brother ask why do it take spaces like this for us man to open up.well for one y'all have made it a save spaces to open up and be transparent and real second us men process differently the women do. women process things through talking we process things through silence so we can give good answer so ladies it not that we not answer right then and there we just process things differently that how are brain is wired
Thanks for your thoughts on this, Derrick.
I am also conflicted about "toxic masculinity", because it can feel like mens' comfort is one of the most important things in this world. Just one example, out of many but: men's birth control being pulled immediately, because they had depression as a side effect. Women have had that (and pages and pages of side effects) since the beginning. It's acceptable when a woman experiences it, but as soon as man does, it's an emergency.
I understand what you mean about wanting to welcome people in, and not having men peg you as someone to ignore, but...it can be really frustrating. Compare how BIPOC, women, LGBTQIA+ community, people with disabilities, etc. are made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, and bad about being who they are constantly. But make a man - especially a white man - feel bad or uncomfortable? That's a no-no. Everyone else has to live through it, sit with those feelings, work through it, understand it, and learn about it, but men can't look up a definition or watch a 5 min video talking about it? They can't sit with it for 5 minutes to actually see the phrase "toxic masculinity", and see that there's an adjective? They can understand "broken car" doesn't mean all cars are broken, it's just an adjectives to describe that car?
I know I'm going off on a rant here, and I do understand what you mean. And I do care about men an their well-being, and love who men are and what they are. But, as someone who is in some of those other groups, that is negatively impacted by toxic masculinity, it can be so frustrating, and can honestly hurt that once again, the world and language has to accommodate men's comfort, because they can't sit with discomfort.
We completely agree. It's so complicated. It sometimes comes down to goals - if we alienate too many men, whether we think they should feel that way or not, then are we succeeding in our mission to learn and grow together, to create more empathy, to change the hearts and minds of those men? It's really a fine balance between speaking our truth in a way that is accessible and being so careful that we're pandering; we of course never want to do the latter.
I know I was meant to see this. I have the same fear Kier has with absolutely no evidence for it
So glad you're here with us!
He's afraid of loosing it all