The fact that God wanted to test Abraham’s faith by ordering he kill his own son is beyond problematic because it shows God didn't care what Issac felt at the moment; the fear, the horror.
Unless you also consider that Isaac was 37, being lead to sacrifice by a man over 100 whom he could easily overpower. He had to have been a willing participant and like Abraham knew that it was never going to actually happen.
@@greatsayain if they both knew it wouldn't happen, then that "god" also would have known what they were thinking. This makes it pointless. I doubt a 100 year old man could climb a mountain.
@@TheBox225 well a 90 year old woman couldn't have a child but that's how old Sarah was when she had Isaac, so you kind of have to get part the impossible stuff happening if you want to have a discussion about meaning. And yes, the test is pointless is a valid interpretation of this story. People have been analyzing the story for centuries to figure out what it means and what there is to learn from it. Some say Abraham actually failed the test by not calling G-d out on his request. Seek out other interpretations and see what you can find.
It's simply beyond me how that audience (or at least the sensible portion) could have remained seated after Hitch said "No, fuck you." The first time I ever saw this clip I found myself not only applauding, but on my feet as well; I was home alone in my office chair at the time.
Abraham took Isaac's hand and led him to the lonesome hill. While his daughter hid and watched,She dare not breathe. She was so still.Just as an angel cried for the slaughter, Abraham's daughter raised her voice.Then the angel asked her what her name was,She said,"I have none."Then he asked, "How can this be? ""My father never gave me one."And with his sword up, raised for the slaughter, Abraham's daughter raised her bow."How darest you, child, defy your father?""You better let young Isaac go."
I think the point is that if Abraham knew the character of God to be a loving one, then he should have known any god telling him to sacrifice his own son could not be the same God he worships. Obviously, Abraham must have thought it was within God's nature for Him to accept human sacrifice. Our current morality tells us now that human sacrifice is immoral and Hitchens points out that we currently must have superior morals than those presented in the Bible.
I can't seem to find a video of Hitch sub par, or Hitch not quite so good as usual. He seems to always be at his best... I fucking LOVE this one, though. (among others ; ;)
We don't know....yet. It is better to admit we don't know, while seeking the answer, than to make up fairy tales that pretend we do, to provide comfort.
The last I looked, LIFE has been explained and there really hasn't been any need for a 'god', long before it was, except of course for the week minded and those who wish to prey on them.
First of all I mentioned philsophers who tried to understand whatever the concept of God was by proving to the masses "Science." They believed that science was a way to find the "LOGOS". That is why they preached polyscience which later became the concept of universities. The guy who cursed me should thank Plato for paving the way for his chance to even utter profanity at me about his beliefs in terms of rational thought. Remember what brought the "rebirth" of classical thinking into Europe?
You are right. Plato took the notes. Plato was the pupil and started an Academy to further the teachings of Socrates. The death speech of Socrates before he drank the hemlock and was executed was recorded and passed on by Plato. Socrates was put to death for mainly challenging the Greek mythology and idiotic thinking of the time. "Convince or be Convinced" was a famous line from him. He died for truth and didn't hide from his critics.
that's just it, there is no reason when it comes to the blind faith of the religious. they do not listen to logic because who knows better than MY god? MY god says i can do what i please (mostly because he is my own desires...) a crazy man in charge of a country is hard to negotiate with
In that story, Yahweh should be derided for being a cruel, perverse sociopath, and Abraham for being a blind, servile automaton. I can see North Korea redoing it with the Dear Leader as god.
God and religion aside for a moment:: the strides froward which human kind has made in science and human understanding still has not stopped the wars we continually involve ourselves in. We should ply the backward nations with reason not bombs and bullets!!
The stories in the bible came from older sources. The universe is rational and the believe systems we have are attempt to explain the universe. Understand also that when an advance civilization encounters a more primitive one the primitives sometimes worship the more advance.
The point is that Abraham agreed in the first place. Besides, is this a point that God doesn't condone human sacrifice? You may have skipped over the book of Judges, within which Jephthah vowed to sacrifice the first person to walk out of his house if God were to grant him victory in his battle. God agrees to this shady deal, knowing in advance it would be his daughter. He then made him go through with the sacrifice.
I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here... however I will agree with you that the profanity spewing folk give everyone a bad name. As for your comment on the "rebirth" of classical thinking... the Renascence was backed mostly by deists, following the technological Dark Ages, which coincided nicely with the rise of Christianity. NOTE: I try and do my research, but I am no expert. Take my claims with a grain of salt.
Morally unjustifiable? what? having sex/kids or having kids because you assume he truly only helped conceive them to carry on his genes? I highly doubt he believes his children are only to help him carry on his legacy. I like how you put quotations on "normal and "natural" as if to emphasize that sex and child birth aren't natural...
This is quite a short clip. I'd like to just say that God actually told him he could keep his son when he reached the top of the hill. Most of the people who say "Good point" have probably never even properly examined this part of the scripture.
Actually, infanticide at the time was as common as buying hotdogs on the streets today, the worship of baal, mollock, so maybe the abraham story is a way to disprove infanticide through an allegorical story
it's ironic that you say that, because there's no real difference between greek mythology and modern religions. christianity is as myth-based and idiotic as any ancient myth-based religion. assuming that bible-based religions are superior to ancient mythologies is a common mistake. socrates, as jesus, chose to die for a message. both could have escaped their deaths. their choices don't make them any more right or wrong than their escaping would have.
Bro, the story written for ancient farmers and meant to dissuade them from performing child sacrifice. AND IT WORKED. Erm but too bad it was a problematic story 😭 😭 😭 Hitchslap=agressively bad interpretation of a text.
No it wasn't. It was meant to illustrate that faith in their god was the most important thing above all other things, and that utter obedience is the goal, even if that includes sacrificing your only child.
I have never heard "No, fuck you" said so perfectly before.
The fact that God wanted to test Abraham’s faith by ordering he kill his own son is beyond problematic because it shows God didn't care what Issac felt at the moment; the fear, the horror.
Exactly, a very simple example of yahweh’s immoral nature - problematic coming from a perfect, loving deity. But his followers are deluded and fake
Unless you also consider that Isaac was 37, being lead to sacrifice by a man over 100 whom he could easily overpower. He had to have been a willing participant and like Abraham knew that it was never going to actually happen.
@@greatsayain if they both knew it wouldn't happen, then that "god" also would have known what they were thinking. This makes it pointless. I doubt a 100 year old man could climb a mountain.
@@TheBox225 well a 90 year old woman couldn't have a child but that's how old Sarah was when she had Isaac, so you kind of have to get part the impossible stuff happening if you want to have a discussion about meaning.
And yes, the test is pointless is a valid interpretation of this story. People have been analyzing the story for centuries to figure out what it means and what there is to learn from it. Some say Abraham actually failed the test by not calling G-d out on his request. Seek out other interpretations and see what you can find.
And the Israelites said to Abraham “Like umm God is super problematic” and lo did he smite them
This is the greatest 1 minute clip on UA-cam
It's simply beyond me how that audience (or at least the sensible portion) could have remained seated after Hitch said "No, fuck you." The first time I ever saw this clip I found myself not only applauding, but on my feet as well; I was home alone in my office chair at the time.
Best hitchslap ever!
Abraham took Isaac's hand and led him to the lonesome hill.
While his daughter hid and watched,She dare not breathe. She was so still.Just as an angel cried for the slaughter,
Abraham's daughter raised her voice.Then the angel asked her what her name was,She said,"I have none."Then he asked, "How can this be? ""My father never gave me one."And with his sword up, raised for the slaughter,
Abraham's daughter raised her bow."How darest you, child, defy your father?""You better let young Isaac go."
I think the point is that if Abraham knew the character of God to be a loving one, then he should have known any god telling him to sacrifice his own son could not be the same God he worships. Obviously, Abraham must have thought it was within God's nature for Him to accept human sacrifice. Our current morality tells us now that human sacrifice is immoral and Hitchens points out that we currently must have superior morals than those presented in the Bible.
Any living sacrifice is immoral IMO
Perfect, as always.
I can't seem to find a video of Hitch sub par, or Hitch not quite so good as usual. He seems to always be at his best...
I fucking LOVE this one, though. (among others ; ;)
Greatest hitchslap ever
I think Hitchens will live on for long after his death as he is through the videos on youtube.
We don't know....yet. It is better to admit we don't know, while seeking the answer, than to make up fairy tales that pretend we do, to provide comfort.
Mr. Hitchens,as usual, is correct.
This excerpt is from Christopher Hitchens vs. Jay Richards debate.
The last I looked, LIFE has been explained and there really hasn't been any need for a 'god', long before it was, except of course for the week minded and those who wish to prey on them.
Brilliant point. So true.
First of all I mentioned philsophers who tried to understand whatever the concept of God was by proving to the masses "Science." They believed that science was a way to find the "LOGOS". That is why they preached polyscience which later became the concept of universities. The guy who cursed me should thank Plato for paving the way for his chance to even utter profanity at me about his beliefs in terms of rational thought. Remember what brought the "rebirth" of classical thinking into Europe?
«The second thing i live for, if not exactly passing on my genes, is taking part in activities that might allow those genes to be passed on» 😅
AWWWWW YEAHHHHH
You are right. Plato took the notes. Plato was the pupil and started an Academy to further the teachings of Socrates. The death speech of Socrates before he drank the hemlock and was executed was recorded and passed on by Plato. Socrates was put to death for mainly challenging the Greek mythology and idiotic thinking of the time. "Convince or be Convinced" was a famous line from him. He died for truth and didn't hide from his critics.
Childish insults: the last resort of children and no-argument-left-theists.
Well done.
that's just it, there is no reason when it comes to the blind faith of the religious. they do not listen to logic because who knows better than MY god? MY god says i can do what i please (mostly because he is my own desires...) a crazy man in charge of a country is hard to negotiate with
This should be the epigraph to McCarthy's The Road
Wise words.
In that story, Yahweh should be derided for being a cruel, perverse sociopath, and Abraham for being a blind, servile automaton. I can see North Korea redoing it with the Dear Leader as god.
RIP Christopher Hitchens
God and religion aside for a moment:: the strides froward which human kind has made in science and human understanding still has not stopped the wars we continually involve ourselves in. We should ply the backward nations with reason not bombs and bullets!!
Can anyone tell me which debate this is? -the only one can't find much info on -
yeah, 21st century but it still feels like two steps foreward, one step back in the war between rationalism and faith.... :/
The stories in the bible came from older sources. The universe is rational and the believe systems we have are attempt to explain the universe. Understand also that when an advance civilization encounters a more primitive one the primitives sometimes worship the more advance.
here here
If I am lying, I am certainly not doing it on purpose. Please, if you have some evidence to the contrary, share it.
What debate is this?
Christopher Hitchens vs. Jay Richards
(no relation)
+Connor Richards Lol Connor
I have absolutely no clue what in the world you are trying to say.
No offense. Please clarify. I am interested to hear what your point was.
The point is that Abraham agreed in the first place.
Besides, is this a point that God doesn't condone human sacrifice? You may have skipped over the book of Judges, within which Jephthah vowed to sacrifice the first person to walk out of his house if God were to grant him victory in his battle. God agrees to this shady deal, knowing in advance it would be his daughter. He then made him go through with the sacrifice.
Just read the Jephthah story, crazy.
how do you read Socrates?
I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here... however I will agree with you that the profanity spewing folk give everyone a bad name.
As for your comment on the "rebirth" of classical thinking... the Renascence was backed mostly by deists, following the technological Dark Ages, which coincided nicely with the rise of Christianity.
NOTE: I try and do my research, but I am no expert. Take my claims with a grain of salt.
I was not quoting anyone.
What is this debate?
you clearly missed the point of the video.
Morally unjustifiable? what? having sex/kids or having kids because you assume he truly only helped conceive them to carry on his genes? I highly doubt he believes his children are only to help him carry on his legacy. I like how you put quotations on "normal and "natural" as if to emphasize that sex and child birth aren't natural...
Amen :P
Don't say THAT one didn't hit a nerve, gay bait.
This is quite a short clip.
I'd like to just say that God actually told him he could keep his son when he reached the top of the hill. Most of the people who say "Good point" have probably never even properly examined this part of the scripture.
produce the author of what you quote
Actually, infanticide at the time was as common as buying hotdogs on the streets today, the worship of baal, mollock, so maybe the abraham story is a way to disprove infanticide through an allegorical story
it's ironic that you say that, because there's no real difference between greek mythology and modern religions. christianity is as myth-based and idiotic as any ancient myth-based religion. assuming that bible-based religions are superior to ancient mythologies is a common mistake.
socrates, as jesus, chose to die for a message. both could have escaped their deaths. their choices don't make them any more right or wrong than their escaping would have.
You're just angry at God for your being a Halloween monster the other 364 days of the year.
Bro, the story written for ancient farmers and meant to dissuade them from performing child sacrifice. AND IT WORKED. Erm but too bad it was a problematic story 😭 😭 😭 Hitchslap=agressively bad interpretation of a text.
So true. I’m glad no one today is dumb enough to think the text is actually literal. Great point.
It's still the very implication of the story that's troublesome... sacrificing your child, or being prepared to (!), if commanded. It's sick.
No it wasn't. It was meant to illustrate that faith in their god was the most important thing above all other things, and that utter obedience is the goal, even if that includes sacrificing your only child.
he didn t really kill his son, chris. it was just a test..don t take it so literally, a story about a god, of which you say is not real anyway. hmm.
A test of what though? Abraham passed the test because he was willing to kill his son.
Fucking Evil.
He would have!