The Cultish Aspects of Academia. Disturbing Similarities You Can't Ignore!
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- In this video I share with you the cultish aspects of academia.
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▼ ▽ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - introduction
0:20 - social isolation
1:07 - leaving academia
1:49 - new ideas
3:25 - leaders
4:07 - passion
4:50 - exceptions
5:39 - financial
6:45 - quickfire round
10:04 - wrapping up
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Career academic here. They may say that 'if you leave you are a failure', but deep inside most know that they themselves won't survive a month in a corporate job. There's so much moral grandstanding and virtue signalling in this job, it makes me feel nauseated. And the hypocrisy is even worse! They'll keep talking about climate change and emissions and the same people couldn't keep their Butts on the ground, hopping one conference to another.
or talk about sustainability but still use disposable plastic cups at any slight chance
Okay but CEOs wouldn't survive the harsh physical labor their employees survive. Celebraties and artists wouldn't survive a corporate job either. I think basically everyone looks down on some people whose jobs they couldn't do.
Or talk about workers rights but will fire MD adjunkts in a blink of an eye
I do have to say, I like the attitude of people in industry mostly way better than in academia. They also have a more realistic view of life and are less fake. But maybe that is only in smaller companies. I am also always astonished when academics that earn less than a cashier buy the most expensive stuff from alternative stores.
Yea most of the academics ive known are overgrown children with very little of what people typically consider “skills” in the workforce
Andrew, with your beard you are classic prophet, a leader of our cult, we follow you in and out of academia!
😂😂beards
Another cultish aspect of academia is that leadership or authority creates an "alternate reality" to distance the group from the rest of humanity: we are smarter, we are engaged in a sacred task that is worth sacrificing for, its our team vs. the world, the stakes are high and the opportunity is unique. These are extremes which are intended to continuously return the attention of the group members back to the group.
LITTERALLY. THEY TREAT IT LIKE ITS SOME SACRED TASK.
Covid had to be the most infuriating time.
All these clowns pushed vaccines and Fauci-ism like a pseudo-religion, where you have to obey the elder scientists or something.
It litterally added fuel to the fire of science denialism.
Science is just the normal way humans think. Its not some special novel way of thinking lika religion is. It baffles me how people treat it like such.
Science shouldnt even be a word honestly.
I have just been reading *The Invisible Writing* (1954), in which Arthur Koestler describes how he first surrendered to communism, then got out of it, and finally warned the Western world against it. Again and again, as I pored over Koestler's account of the otherwise mostly unemployable loons and shysters who dictated policy to their fellow comrades, I was reminded of one feature above all which afflicts many tenured antipodean academics (as opposed to hard-pressed antipodean casuals): an *absolute incomprehension* of the financial pressures which burden us working stiffs. They have no more understanding of what it's like to struggle with paying bills or rent, than I have of what it's like to study chemistry or mathematics.
@@robertjamesstove I would argue that academics can and do understand what it is like to struggle having had to climb the greasy pole themselves; they simply don't want to think about it. It's a combination of being blinded by ambition and avoiding uncomfortable feelings of empathy. It's more like "the banality of evil" than an inherent inability to comprehend. Everyone protects themselves from uncomfortable realities to some degree, especially today where one is exposed to the happenings of so much suffering and injustice through worldwide media. The difference here is that these authorities actually have significant control over the degree of suffering they cause and they cause it anyways.
Capitalism is a cult.
@@profdc9501 What is the evidence that academics don't know about struggle? Do you think that every successful academic is where they are because they didn't have to struggle?
The cultish aspect is one of the many reasons I quit my PhD.
In addition to being a cult, there also some essays that compare academia to the drug trade. In both there are lots of young, motivated people willing to undergo horrendous working conditions to achieve a dream of future personal success. The exploitation of passion and unrealistic hopes and the oversupply of young people willing to suffer these pains because they are so naive is what keeps these systems working.
Good comparison, but also a bad one
The one difference that I think automatically overshadows all these similarities is that one is legal and the other is illegal. That makes every single living day extremely dangerous for the latter
@@kramarancko1107A completely redundant point
So right. I left after 7 years without finishing, and my relationships with a lot of people ended. Life has been very hard since I left but I haven't regretted my escape for one moment.😊
Sorry to hear that you went through that toxic mess and abuse for 7 years. I escaped in 2.5 - 3 years. I understood that I needed to leave soon to preserve my physical and mental health, so I left soon after publishing my second paper. No PhD, No Problem. I am alive and healthy....and published. The key is to make the decision to leave sooner rather than later when you are in a toxic, exploiting, abusive program, institute or job.
@@soccersprint You were smarter than I was. lol. I stayed til partway through the dissertation before I realized I didn't know why I was doing it anymore. I actually had some very good people in my corner, but I was so tired of the whole system. I'm training to be a therapist now, and part of what I want to work on with clients is academic trauma.
I stopped at a Masters in Cultural Studies and went to library school. One of the advisors on my thesis committee actually started making fun of me for it, but I didn't take it personally. A few years later, that same professor failed to get tenure, went adjunct at a university in another city, then dropped out of academia himself! We're good friends now, and every so often I'll run into him at the grocery store and we'll catch up.
The podcast “Sounds Like a Cult” has an episode on academia - lines up quite well with this video (and my experience currently as a PhD student)
Dr. Andrew, I stumbled over your video, and I can clearly stipulate that your channel has become one of my favorites! Keep up the good work! The sky will never be your limit, but rather a stepping stone to more positively profound heights. Cheers!
I used to be very open to the accusations of this or that being a cult, but the older I get, the more I see how these "signs of a cult" are often also requirements for any field or community or social movements to succeed. When we see these things, we should then ask ourselves, "to what degree?" or "to what end?" Furthermore, it is wise to acknowledge that when something becomes "cult-like," it's not necessarily the fault of the institution or those in charge of it, but the work of those who join in and start behaving cult-like in spite of objections by those in leadership (seen that happen several times in a few places).
Yes
I saw cult behaviour in my last job created by academics. The underlings had titbits dangled in front of them to ensure loyalty, of course, none of these little prizes never came out of the academic's pocket.
Often the reputation of the academic is the result of urban legend rather than merit. Perhaps that could be another corollary to define a cult.
Great stuff. I only disagree with the assertion that you should never pay for a PhD. I think it depends on your situation. I was working full time in industry and dropped about $17K on a part-time, online PhD from a private nonprofit American university next to no one has heard about. I was able to write my dissertation in four semesters and keep my day job. Will I ever be able to do research at an R1 university, no. Does my industry have a weird obsession with the "Dr." title and is willing to pay a lot more for someone with the title, yes. A paid-for PhD was an investment that worked out well for me and if I want to I can teach at the community college level or state college level. I'm pretty happy with it all.
I am impressed by your charisma in outlining these points. Wait a second . . .
Absolutely love Dr Andy. Just recently discovered him and now I am hooked. Entertaining yet very insightful and relevant commentary is the order of the day. As for this video, brilliant!!!
I think when I first join the academia from industry, the person that I worked with also felt betrayed at some point and discouraged me from joining the academia. So it doesn't matter where you are from, when you switch career, people do perceive that way. Part and parcel of the working life, but life still moves on. I love working in the academia now. ❤
This is hilarious and sad at the same time
The phrase "funny cuz its true" comes to mind 😅😢
Great content as always!!! Keep up the extraordinary work!
Thanks! Will do!
There is a mirroring of this in tech corporate culture. Landmines everywhere. Put in 110%, embrace the sacrifice, don't highlight inefficiency or raise suspicion of unidentified protected members.
Gonna sound weird but I wish we were encouraged to socialize more as I'm a very antisocial person. I mean like minded people are those you generally feel least awkward socializing with.
Hey Andy, off topic but did you hear about the tragic events between a phd student and advisor at UNC? It happened a few days ago at a US campus. Certainly got me thinking about your videos which go into detail about how much strain, pressure, and stress are on the phd candidates and how important the doctoral advisor is.
And yet we go years and years and years without students hooting their advisors.
As a second year PhD student, I can tell you the pressure is immense.
As for the supervisor, he literally determine whether you will succeed your PhD or or you will drop out of the program.
@@40NoNameFound-100-years-ago As a person with a PhD, I understand that the pressure is intense, and I understand the feeling of powerless, but I can tell you that this very common sentiment that one person can determine your whole career is not true. I can tell you from personal experience that any number of people can be disruptive to your career, and maybe even set you back. Changing advisors, for example, is disruptive, but it can be done. I help students do this all the time. And sometimes an advisor change is not the solution. Sometimes a conversation is the solution. I can tell you that I got a faculty position without a letter from my postdoc advisor. I can tell you that I write letters for students who dont want to ask their advisor for a letter because they know or fear it will be negative. I can also tell you that one can absolutely survive something way more stressfgul than graduate school, which is tenure denial. I can tell you that a person can have a successful academic career despite numerous setbacks, despite the feeling-or the evidence-that one person or group tried hard to allow you to fail or make you fail. The mindset that one person can destroy your career contributes to the "toxicity" of academia. It's simply not true. Don't let your advisor live rent free in your head.
Did they know what were the motives of this action??
this video is so true, so insightful, and so brave in speaking out the truth about academia! also in a very amusing way. and look at the comments, a lot of people echoed with this video, and they shared lots of very, very interesting comments, which took the discussion to a new level!
Academia is definitely a mess. I'm glad less students are going to college. They need to reassess what they're actually doing.
One thing I will say about financial side is yes, it is terrible in the states. As for the exception part, if you make it clear you are not willing to play the game, but don't try to burn the bridges, a smart experienced mentor, especially in the life sciences, will respect it. It's because they know having an inside connection to industry, government, or patent law can become invaluable in the future for them. That is not to say my mentor didn't push heavily back against me deciding to not follow a traditional route, but they accepted it. It can be a coin toss though. Some faculty and mentors will get utterly offended at you even toying with the idea of someone not becoming an academic and will do everything in their power to belittle you. I recommend avoiding these mentors honestly.
300% agree with all of the examples. I would not even bother going after more since those are paramount to define a cult.
Although I usually agree with your videos, this is the one that resonates the most with me, since I have reached the same conclusions here in Europe and it fascinates me that such a system can exist and be publicly funded in 2023. You could add that it is a pyramid scheme. I think that you are too naïve thinking that social isolation in academia is something volunteer, but it is comprehensible with the amount of gaslighting, manipulation and psychological nuances. The fact is that academic regulations, norms and nepotism protect the system so much, that if you end up in a toxic environment they will level this against you. To brainwash you , they may try to break your mind telling you everyday that your work is garbage and you are useless, that they can do your work in 2 days, highlighting your errors and denying their own or attributing them to you. In addition, you have to remain silent. You won't be able to reason or argue because they become aggressive. After a couple of years of hearing various people tell you this, even if you used to be a winner and the most confident person in yourself, you will think that you are worthless and dependent on them. Even if you know it's manipulation and you are publishing in the best journals with their signature, you will have so much insecurity that you won't want to leave for another job.
Regarding social isolation, I had never done an extra hour of work in my life before entering academia; however, here the threats began: threats of contract termination, of not completing the PhD, of your professional career, and workloads that you couldn't even finish in two workdays, sometimes asking you to do useless tasks. As a result, I have gone without vacations, weekends, or holidays for 4 years. In the end, being separated from your family or friends makes you more vulnerable and more dependent on your supervisor or colleagues.
I would also add the situations where they ask you to do something that harms you but benefits them, trying to convince you that it's best for you. For example: "What's best for you is to quit your job and apply for a scholarship, so you can dedicate all your time to research" (but they conveniently forget to mention that you'll receive a fifth of your current salary, you'll be dependent on them for your contract, which they can use to manipulate you, and you'll be writing articles they'll put their names on). Another example: "You've been invited to publish in a Q1 journal, but your work isn't up to par. I'll arrange for you to publish in a Q3 journal instead, and you must accept it. Remember, your contract depends on publishing" (but they conveniently forget to mention that their spouse is the editor of the Q3 journal).
This is unbelievable! How did u know my story? N so accurately!!
You know that a huge portion of society has always seen this whole situation as a cultish pyramid scheme? They usually get lumped in with anti-science people. Or their opinions are just seen as worthless. Reading this is kind of like watching a Scientologist realize the possibility of Atheism for the first time lol
True. The exact same thing happens in Academia in the USA. Its very toxic, abusive, and full of manipulation and exploitation. It is common and widespread among many of the institutes in USA.
Hi Andy, thank you so much for this video. I am right now preparing my self to leave academia for good. I had a terrible PhD and now I wanted to give it another shot as a PostDoc with a new supervisor. But the point you made about new ideas is so difficult to do. I would like to establish a new method with a fairly new instrument in the field of Glycobiology. My Supervisor is not really known in the field for this but I would be down to try, since I really think its something that is really less studied. When I pitched my ideas to him, he was really resistant and also told me that he does not believe in the data existed. So for now I really do not know what to do? Moreover, I am also leaving as you said, that they say you have really great chances to become a professor but thank god I saw the reality. I want to shift my focus more on translational medicine based research but it is incredibly hard. I am also a person who loves to collaborate especially with medical professionals but my current supervisior is not really into it. Do you maybe have an Idea if I should continue my next two years (my contract will then end) or shall I have already now a look for a better job in industry? I would love to hear from you. Thanks for your time and your great videos!
Maybe get a different postdoc?
Academics tend to be stubborn, angered when their silly reasoning is proven wrong, and sustain worldly dystopia.
Good info. I would point out that Social Science Ph.D.s often have to pay for their doctorate program as we don't tend to produce money making research or receive grants at the same frequency of the harder sciences.
Thank you very much
Andy! Get on Scite! We need a video from you on it asap! 😃
truth! keep it up
Ludwig Boltzmann was not recognized for his statistical mechanics until later on. He put out the ideas before atomic theory was acceptable in science.
One of the brightests minds of physics and yet he was ridicularized by other most "stablished" names whose minds could not reach near as far as his. His tragedy was to be too much ahead of the other experts on his area.
Wow, all of the aspects were so spot on :D Thank Zeus I'm out of that life sucking sinkhole.
Dr. Andrew if I’m offered a Lecturer job in a Russel group of University and a non -Russel one , which one do you think would be better for my career growth. Thank you in advance
Some corporations are also cultish.
yep. Southwest Airlines is always given first example of that. It is actually exploitive for the employees.
It's a good idea to avoid those.
@@jsb4812 IBM springs to mind when talking about corporate cult mentality.
Hello there! In previous videos, you have discussed applying to Ph.D. programs. But could you discuss when a Ph.D. student decides to leave their current program and apply to another? It is the beginning of my 2nd year of my Ph.D. (US based), and I have decided to leave my current program. So, I am currently looking for other programs (STEM) and will apply to them this fall. My current advisor is not providing a letter of rec, and I am worried that the programs I apply to will take my application as a red flag. But I feel like professors should understand that things happen and might understand that Ph.D. students do transfer.
This seems petty and gross that they would not write you a letter of recommendation (unless you were a shitty Ph.D. student lol)
real quick, what is your grooming kit? your beard is amazing..
i disagree with the ideas thing on the office side. one manager spoke up and said it's amazing what you can accomplish after the seniors leave or retire.
Even when ideas are supported by good data, new and reworked from others, academia will turn themselves into pretzels against the data quality and argue in parallel amd not directly. This in my experience happens if the result goes against previous suggestion that could have save the world, so to speak. Why? 1. Difficult to let go of decades of past but limited researchIl results on which they are based, and current grants, PhD and post doc programs over 3 years may be threatened as wrong or irrelevant before completion.
Social isolation? That makes it far harder than it already is, as it's clear that academic success is more about your network than being a scientist. especially when publishing papers, having a networks allows you to get your printed much more often than by your own work.
Social isolation is always a problem, but in academia it looks like a death sentence.
I only have a master's and it is in the lib arts, but i love your videos and you would be surprised how much overlap there is. My recommendation for surviving school, and research, if you choose to do it. Drop online dating and tinder and just go to student union events, and ask someone out. I met my wife in grad school and i cant tell you how much more balanced my life seemed to be than my peers who did all school all the time. Having a love life gives your life a direction and a purpose outside of what you are doing professionally. Thats my advice. Date the old fashioned way and make it last. Its worth it.
SOOO TRUE!!! YES....the conformity...the desperation....the pointless power tripping....
Anarchic Mentors taught me to BURN it down and do what I think is right! 😂..and..
Write to them if I get into too much trouble ....and need help to get airlifted.....
Hahahhaaha. 😂 I didn't know what that meant until recently!
You are entertaining, Andy but also talk about the Rebellion pls!
There's a lot of successes that come out of Rebellion and Revolution! 🎉🎉🎉
This might sound as a stupid question but hope you can answer this.
I did a MSc. In 2012. At the time I really considered doing a PhD but due to only having average grades never pursued it.
Now 10 years later I’m reconsidering. I’ve more or less kept up on current scientific literature and gained useful real life experience. What should I keep in mind when applying to do a PhD?
This may be obvious, but be prepared mentally and financially for the financial dip.
Study something interesting that will provide you skills that are transferable to industry (if you plan on going back). Your project will last 5 years so it’s important to work on something that will keep you motivated.
Finally, keep support from ALL ANGLES (e.g. family, friends, and definitely colleagues who understand the scope of the work). A PhD is super isolating.
Best of luck!
Isn't an MSc more generally marketable than a PhD? I know that in the case of physics -- a PhD is often perceived as you being overqualified in industry, thereby making an MSc a 'sweet spot' for industry jobs. I have heard similar things about chemistry. In biology -- you need every tier of credential that you can get a hold of to stand out. You are competing with everyone and their dog in the world of laboratory biology.
Keep in mind that quality of life is more important than a Phd and that getting a Phd most likely will not improve the quality of your life and will not make you more employable. Keep in mind to be very careful with choosing your program and supervisor if you do decide to give it a try. If you experience excessive toxicity then leave or even switch to another program at a different institute.
Isn't it true for any "serious" association of people (by "serious" I mean: not unpaid activity, activity where your living depends on it)?
I don‘t think so, the vast majority of jobs in most industries in my country is 9-5 and forget about it once you clock out. This is the exception in academia. In that sense I think it is similar to closed off fields like investment banking, which do have cult-like aspects but ultimately are just a very special occupational niche.
Nope
I took a bachelor's degree in engineering even though my undergrad advisor was very encouraging and 3 different graduate supervisors were very interested in me working with them in a masters program. But I had already worked for years as an electronic technician in my engineering college's labs as an undergrad and I knew the personalities, the politics and the way certain professors treated their graduate students like slaves. And so I went to work in private industry instead. I don''t think that decision has been wrong.
Brilliant ❤
Revolutionary leaps forward will come from independent research that is done outside of the accepted academic structure.
These leaps forward will be resisted and suppressed if possible by the academic establishment.
Those academics on top do not want to compete with others to maintain their position.
Right.
Please explain how you ‘ can see me in the next video’
I think the degree of stigmatization varies by field and also what you're leaving academia for.
This sounds an awful lot like an episode from the podcast ‘Sounds Like A Cult’: The Cult of Academia.
Just look at Harvard University and the Salem Witch Trials.
So, it is impossibile to become a professor?
Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.
Impossible? No. Improbable? Maybe. A pain in the ass? Yes.
Oups first again 😂. I should seriously stop procrastinating
Well done!
why did you use the illuminati symbol for cult on your thumbnail picture?
Love the video. Hate the beard.
I think this reading of academia is either outdated or unfair. For example, while the stigma of leaving is a real thing, it is often more on the person leaving than their peers. In my experience, me and my friends sort of celebrated when people finished their academic career (the sad part was that meant they will very likely move away), after all, they went against the flow of things inside academia to become more economically “free” than us that stayed.
Another example, the exploitation of passion is something that more frequently happens like self-exploitation, many advisors are too tangled up in their personal projects that they sort of forget of their least productive students until it is time for them to graduate (I acknowledge that this is very particular with mathematics).
The charismatic leader thing really happens every single time you have a bunch of people working towards the same goal.
The isolation isn’t some encouraged, in fact, at a systemic level it is discouraged through students meet up events from different programs and certain community-wide events sponsored by the University. Of course, when the workload is too large for the time and funding, one tends to push for more hours than the normal full-time job schedule. (While the systematic solutions are ineffective, this doesn’t mean you are guilt tripped or baited into isolation like in most cults.
This. Thank you. Totally agree.
Yip, very cult like.
where is the extraordinary evidence for pedantic essay formatting requirements, transgender ideology, and starting classes at ungodly hours in the morning? There's plenty of evidence that schools disproportionately discipline boys over girls and zero tolerance policies are ineffective but thats still a thing in academia.
I research this specific area, so please check your AI inbox. ;-)
Sorry big dawg this is all industries.... Retail, hospitality etc etc
I worked for a Japanese company, it checked every box on that list.
I'm in Japanese academia...a cult within a cult
Sorry small dawg, but you are wrong. Academia is a different beast. Its a different level of abuse and slavery in those lab plantations.
@@soccersprint nah you academics just think youre more special than the rest of the labor force
@@ultravioletiris6241 Nah dawg, I'm not in academia. Been in industry for 15 years after leaving Phd program and Academia. Industry is crazy too, but you get paid much much better than academia, and there are paths to escape the lab based toxicity in Industry jobs. Academia is grimmy slavery with no improvement. Only improvement is to leave academia.
Did they excommunicate you for heresy?
Doing a PhD is not exactly a job. A PhD student doesn't only work for a supervisor. To a great extent, a PhD student is working for himself/herelf. To a great extent, the supervisor works for the student. If a student works on weekends, they're doing it for themselves, to improve their chances of securing a position and be able to work what they're passionate about. And they're doing it to improve Science and society. A lot of tenured professors work many weekends.
Are you in a cult?
Good tip: don't rely on the Google instant expert to establish what a cult is. You both missed out a vitally important indicator of cult. The clue is in the language. Study the language from the perspective of a psychologist and then you will know for sure. You can also use someone's language to identify them and even figure out who is controlling them. It's the art of linguistic fingerprinting. This is a tool which they often don't guard against. You could even spot a double-agent if you got good at it.
Skull and Bones does not approve this message. 💀
Lack of sleep.
Haha, that charismatic leader is simply a narcisist. I mean it a real real narcisist.
What was that?
I created a big expectation when I saw the title of this new vídeo... What a disappointement! You fail the obvious things like the herd mentality and blind acceptance of authority by the students and researchers and you even stand by academia claiming it is very open to new ideas!! You certaintly live in different world from my own...
It may be like a cult but in reality you’re all publisher slaves. Elsevier, JAMA, Nature are taking all of the cash whilst you are providing all of the content and marketing ( through citations). These platform owners have the Universities on a leash to do their bidding.
Definitely a bad cult!