2018 BMW RnineT Review - Is the standard bike any good?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- 2018 BMW RnineT Review - I've been lucky enough over the last few months to ride the BMW RnineT in various of it's guises but seldom, have I had the chance to ride the "vanilla" bike. Stick around and stay tuned to find out what I thought of it...
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I’m getting to the age where the retro look bike is appealing more and more to me
I know how you feel!
With you on that, I have a T100 Bonneville coming. Bikes like these are beautiful things now, love them.
Paul Sauntson .... Know what you mean .. it’s a corker...
SunzOffski if you use words like “hipster” and “trending” BMW doesn’t want you riding their bikes...p.s ...who’s Nick Berry
I’m only 36 and I totally agree. I want a bike this is just a bike. Practical and beautiful looking.
if nobody mentioned it, the numbe 21 is significant..It is the BMW model number for the R9T.. just a tidbit of info
Are we not just in the best time in biking history for an amazing selection of motorcycles to ride across the board. It is so hard these days to stick to one bike and say that you will never change. I know there are a lot of people that get board with hearing how good BMWs are but they certainly know how to continually raise the bar and excite!
Great vid TMF and what a stunning day to be out on 2 wheels 😎👍
David
Agreed on all points! ....if only the weather was like that today (snow on the ground here now)....
TheMissendenFlyer
Snow here as well in southeast Europe, 19th March and the bloody thing came out of nowhere. Skies finally started to clear up and the days started to warm up and then suddenly this crap.
You know Andy I watched this review years ago before I got my R9T and I decided then and there I was gonna buy it. Honestly I studied the bike beforehand even then. But your review so direct and well explained summed it all up for me. Since I knew you are an experienced rider, I was certain you were telling it like it is. So now that I have the bike for 2 years I can tell you thanks man, because I love every moment with my bike in my life.
Glad I could help!
That growling twin sound is wonderful!
I'd love to know what the 3 people that didn't like this video didn't like. Just BMW haters? Great first ride impressions, as always.
Thank you Joe....
What a time to be alive..RnineT, Thruxton, Z900RS..! Would be a hard choice to pick just one as my retro! 😊
Yes they are are lovely machines - between the R9T and Z900RS for me....
Even a xsr900. Or a triuph street scrambler
The Thruxton is heavy expensive and less powerfull than the other two.
Would the Honda CB1100RS fall into this retro category as well? I always forget about this bike. Future review?
Richard Collins it would but how an almost 1200cc/4. Can be detuned to 85hp and 61ft/lb. Of torque is beyond me.
I am now on my second R NineT it's an Option 719 with the Vintage paint scheme , it's absolutely beautiful
Nice.......
"Bahnstormer in Maidenhead"
That sounds absolutely metal !
:0) I know what you mean!
I completely agree with you TMF. I also really like the styling of the RnineT. She's a head turner alright! Just perfect for a long sunny day's blast.
What a superb looking bike. Might be overshadowed for versatility by my R80GS with its 32 litre tank. Thing I loved about the R80 was the rear rise you got out of the torque reaction of shaft drive.
I don't generally like the look of BMWs..... BUT, i totally agree with you, this is a lovely looking machine!
Turned you!
Ok you got me!
TheMissendenFlyer this bike really stops people in their tracks , no matter where it's parked people will stop every time to look at it , I've only mine a week & ive never had so many people comming over to me & asking questions etc about the bike so yes I suppose you could call it a real head turner , my 2016 R 1200 R didn't have the same effect !!
Great review, you have peaked my interest in BMW’s. Never thought I would own one, but after your reviews on the different models, I’m definitely going to check them out. Many thanks!
Yeah there is a good reason why they are so popular! I too never thought I'd go for a boxer engined machine (didn't fancy all those poking out cylinders) but the low centre of gravity makes such a difference to the ease of handling....
This is my DREAM bike!!! I’d have it customised to be my own though but I absolutely LOVE it!!!!
Traded in my 2016 R 1200 R just a few days ago for a 2018 R 9 t like this but without the big yellow 21 stickers , a lot more character than the water cooled boxer , very happy with it , all we want now is for this long bad winter to finish - cheers from Ireland
Congratulations on your new bike.....and yes, roll on Summer - quickly please!
I have a Bonneville T100 and went to test ride this RnineT and in beginning it felt so jerky coming from the smoother Bonneville but damn this thing is punchy! Honestly I was a bit scared in beginning, the way it moves and even while shifting gears it has this sort of punchy response but after a km or two I felt comfortable and the ride just became smoother. Maybe someday I'll buy this one as my above liter class motorcycle.
Along with the Z900RS & T120 is also the new CB1000R . No riding reviews yet as far as I can see. Get yourself down to your local Honda dealer for a test ride TMF!! I'd be interested to hear your views.
I'll see what I can do!
I agree about the fuel gauge, but the other thing that baffles me is why BMW didn't put tubeless tyres on the Classic until 2021. They're the only two things I can find wrong with mine, it's a cracking bike.
nice review, less electronics less things to go wrong, I think it really is worth a look enough power for the real road riding world
Great review as ever. I agree that the front Brembos are fantastic; the best front brakes I've found on any bike. It makes the ones on my 2016 GSA feel feeble in comparison. Odd, as I think (but not 100% sure) they are similar, if not identical, componentry.
Just test ridden the R Nine T sport what a beautiful bike handling is sublime ,ride safe Mr Flyer
Thank you - you too!
I love these bikes. The Urban GS might be number 1
Number One is the original R9T people, the roadster. Come on..It is the complete bike. Non other versions have that front fork 46mm, straight off of S1000 RR. And we all know how important perfection is on a motorcycle, right !
Cool vid matey, brilliant camera angle and view when your riding too.
Thank you!
Fantastic review and to the point. As always, this is the channel for quality review of Motorcycles!
Thank you very much!
The other difference is the indicators, the new models have the dual dials and no LCD in the middle like the 2014-2016 models.
What a day makes you glad to be alive. - I think that’s why we ride motorcycles
Exactly right!
Thanks for the video! I hope you'll review the 2021 model soon. Note: It will have the fuel gauge (important indeed). Cheers.
The great thing about that bike, for those of us who wrenched that engine on 2000s RTs and GSs, we can service this new one without much of a learning curve. I think it's gorgeous. That seat looks like it will make my butt sore after a couple of hours.
Yes it's a beautifully finished bit of kit isn't it....
TMF, You're always so well spoken and obviously have a gift for communicating your thoughts and observations clearly to the viewer. That said is it necessary at speed in potentially icy conditions to point at the clocks and then reach across the center to the opposite dide to point out the shape of the mirror stems? Only thinking of your safety mate. Trust in your superb oration skills and keep the mits on the grips. Cheers.
Thanks for the tip!
Excellent, balanced review.
Lovely machine, nice power delivery, you found it comfortable but as a taller rider (6’) I found it too cramped over any distance.
Go for a good long ride before you buy.
Good advice Chris cheers!
Hmmm... I’m 6‘3 ... still want this - hope it will be fine
I'm nervous to watch as I may have to buy one!!...........Oh OK maybe with one eye first then the other......I know it will be a good review as always! Thanks TMF
Go for it Iain, you know you want one!
Yes, along with the T120 you "forced" me to buy! Good review TMF
love the look of the R9T but with out the yellow blobs and number 21, still watching you but a lot of the time on our TV so can not tick like or comment on it, advantage is bigger picture, keep up the good work young man
Thank you Paul - especially for calling me young man....
As usual another brilliant review. I'm always delighted when I've sat down with my morning coffee, poached eggs and toast to find a new review (or one I haven't yet seen) by you. Lovely bike, and although you can take off the rear subframe it would have made sense to have the option of just removing the pillion foot rests and hangers (like on the old R1100S) and keep the seat hump.. Now, time for another coffee and find another TMF review :)
Excellent - I like the sound of that Judo - thanks for watching.....
FYI: new since my17 - new cockpit and full adjustable suspension :)
The rake is also different from the 2014-16 models, the bike is supposedly more stable on the freeway at the expense of cornering ability. And the 17+ gets ASC traction control as an extra, not available on the earlier models.
How odd to not have a fuel gauge... good review, TMF. Cheers. 🏍
I had the same sort of stunned look when I test road one. The sale guy said, use the oddometer as your gauge..LOL
Never needed a fuel gauge on my bikes. Just stop every 70 miles and fill up. You will get the mileage down when you do that. Then you can go further or still stop at 70.
so retro....🤓
Thanks for yet another great review. I’m a big fan of yours and I picked up some great tips from watching your vids. For example I now have some ACF-50 and a bike dryer 😉.
I agree with most of the things you said about the R nine T however I have to disagree on the suspension part. I personally think the suspension isn’t all that great.
My back did hurt after riding the bike for more than one hour.
Many R Nine T owners, including myself, changed the suspension (front and/or back) to an Öhlins or Wilbers. I know the suspension changed from 2017 on but still it isn’t great. Especially if you compare it to your GS 😉. Also there are some differences between the 2017 models and the previous ones. Suspension, meters (gauges), canbus system, ECU, ASC, Euro-4, non-removable dB-killers, etc... Anyway, keep up the good work. I’m looking forward to your future posts!
It’s funny you compared it to the Bonnie T120. I also was torn between these 2 bikes. I did a testride on both and without a doubt I knew the BMW was the right one for me. I have to admit the Bonnie is more beautiful but once you start that boxer engine anything else is irrelevant. I love that engine! Anyway, thanks for posting all these vids and giving your honest opinion. It’s much appreciated.
Thanks for the kind comments - much appreciated! All the best - TMF
I like the ride and suspension it can be hard if you turn up the damping plus the seat is not comfortable over an hours trip. Not got my bike for that so not an issue for me. Its not a tourer
Impressive bike - though I am not impressed that it lacks a fuel gauge. I'd personally prefer to not have the number plate look but that's aesthetics.
Looking foward to your KTM 790 review!
Me too!
I was able to ride the 790 this evening through rush hour traffic, and on some Swiss mountain twisties!!!!!!
It is the bee's knees and the dogs bollocks!
Think KTM Duke 390, just more so. The 790 has more grunt, but is completely unintimidating, just as easy to ride, possibly even more agile. Just what I was looking for....
Get rid of the daft number on the tank and it's a great looking bike. Pillion perch looks just about non existent mind.
Yes I'm not sure about the number either, but it's still a great looking machine....
I kinda like the number plate. Top it off with sporty white letter tires and you're a real racer boy, sort of.
There is a comfort seat and pillion in the accessory list. There are also different paint and tank options. Love the look... m
Only BMW I ever liked the look of was the R90 s from the mid seventies in the orange sunburst with the bikini fairing.
They used them for production racing back in the day, great looking bike, I would never own a BMW but it was one of my favourite looking bikes along with the Z900 and Z1000 and not forgetting the Ducati 750 Imola replica.
Thanks for watching and for stopping by! All the best - TMF
A great review as always, covers all aspects of ownership if you’re into this sort of bike. A bit expensive for a commuter when you labeled it as an all rounder, but hey if you’ve got the dosh, why not!? Nice bike. If I had the space, and money, I’d have one to take out the missus with.
Me too!
Rarely do motorcycle companies need to down grade from the original bike to sell more.
Mic sounds a lot better in this video my man. May still suggest a quality external mic? Thanks for the videos!!
You can suggest what you like ;0)
Your reviews are all excellent! Sharp looking machine!
Cheers Bill - appreciated...
The RnineT was on my wish list when it originally launched, such a beautiful bike with a wedge of power and torque. Very expensive though. I'd still like to demo one at some point, but it is no longer on the wish list. I was tempted by the Kawasaki, but ended up putting a deposit down on the Street Triple 765 R instead.
Nice....
Loved seeing the country lanes, makes an old biker homesick
great bike
Sorry about that Aidan - where are you now then?
TheMissendenFlyer Auckland NZ
Another 1st class video. Best bike reviewer on the web. Why do you switch to iphone, is the quality that much better for close ups? Narrower angle of lens or something?
Just easier to see where I'm pointing it and the image is stabilised...
Great review. I've been eyeing it since it first came out and so far, just sat on one. Love the way it felt. Hopefully February/March 2019.
Well worth waiting for Ricardo - lovely machines....you'll like the video I posted today too :0)
Great and Liked video! Very professional.
I thought since I want to buy a bike next year, I thought what is the availability of used R9Ts. 2017: Nothing. 2016: Nothing. 2015: Nothing. 2014: 2 motorcycles and one of those machines was in another state! 1 used R9T in New York City! 8 million people!
So either BMW is keeping production down or no one is selling their bikes... Can't wait to try one on the road. :-)
Beautiful machine... I want!!!... Only negatives are fuel gauge and price...
Agreed on all fronts!
There is a fuel light 30 or 50 miles I cant remember, I asked BMW about this and they said retro look means less so they dont fit it. The bike is pricey but the finish is outspending.
The fuel warning light will come on when there is 3 litres left & also how many kms there is remaining in the tank will show once the light comes on also
Hi TMF, well this is the video I’ve been waiting for. That bike is just beautiful and yes it does need a fuel gauge....actually or does it! My old retro biking days didn’t include a fuel gauge just a reserve tank and that was perfectly fine unless of course you were travelling around the world. The question is.... a new kitchen ...........or this bike? I absolutely love it. A fantastic review, well ridden and thanks a lot. Kind regards.
That's not really a question is it....get down to the dealers mate!
On my way.
This is one of those bikes that gives me the fizz as far as looks. It's gorgeous. So it's just a shame it falls down for me in other areas... Cost, air cooled, BMW tax... But it makes a good wall poster anyway :)
Certainly is a looker isn't it - beautifully made too...
Try riding one it will put a smile on your face every time you ride it
I have ridden the previous model and loved that's a really good bike 👌
Great Review 👍😎
Thank you!
Awesome bike 👍
Excellent review as always sir👍
Thanks for watching and for stopping by! All the best - TMF
Great review as usual TMF. It would be better if they let you choose the number on the tank and tail. What was the buzzing sound throughout the vid?
Dodgy mic I reckon....sorry about that
No need to apologise, just an observation.
Wish BMW would put the spoked tubeless rims on the R9T model line!
Yes, tubes are not cool!
Great review of a lovely bike! Just out of interest, was red van man any faster than the more usual white variety?
Sadly he wasn't - it transpires the colour doesn't seem to make any difference!
Greetings! Love all your videos and bike reviews! What gloves are You using? They seem pretty comfy and I love the look of them. Maybe for future you could include your riding gear that you have while doing the review? Keep up the good work! Cheerio :)
Thank you Dejan - I do do kit reviews from time to time...these are my trusty Spidi H2Out gloves - my "go to" set - sadly I don't think they make them any more.......thanks for the kind comments - TMF
Thanks. On a side note I think it’s time to fix up the electric buzz/hum and other sound imperfections (levels). Don’t know what software you are using but guessing adobe, so do it in premiere pro or audition. There’s a few lessons you can watch on UA-cam.If not happy to do it a reasonable price and quick turn around for you as it’s what I do in the real world. Cheers.
Sadly I don't use adobe premiere and have no control over sound levels bar at a very basic level....
Thanks TMF, been waiting for this (liked). Torn between this and Thruxton R -- now need to look harder at T120. Decided I'm too old for hooligans and dressing like a Stormtrooper. Shaft drive and single swing arm are really nice.
Agreed - all great bikes but for me I think the R9T pips it....
Bike looks great and appears to be super smooth. Good for 2 lanes but not the super slab.
the fuel gauge on my f800gs is like not having a gauge
Oliver W same here with the faulty ones on r1200r 2006 and on 👍 riding on the 120-160 mls on the day trip indication 😂
Hi TMF, great review as always. I’m interested in these modern retro oxymoronic bikes; any chance you could do one of your great reviews on the Honda CB1100EX? That’s the one with wire-spoked wheels and harks back to the original CB750 - a beautiful looking machine imo. Keep up the good work.
Another great review Love the looks of the RnineT but i can only afford one bike. love the look of boxer engines just gives it that extra little flare. but as you know im a big Kawasaki Fan so looking forward to the Z900RS review. Ride safe .
Stay tuned, that's coming soon!
I do enjoy your causal rides in the countryside. Cheers
Thanks for watching and for stopping by! All the best - TMF
this or the s 1000rr???
Somewhat different bikes! I’d have the R9T
such a beautiful bike!
Nice landscape, i would like to ride in the UK, but i fear im to stupid to ride on the "wrong side" on the road.
You can save some money on the pure, witch rides allmost as good as the original.
Fabulous bike; but I do wish BMW would double skin their exhaust headers to stop the pipes discolouring. Honda’s CB1100 comes with double skinned pipes and they look fab, even after a couple of years use.
Yes agreed - I think the worse manufacturer for iffy exhaust headers is Ducati - so many of 'em look rusty when almost new!
Excellent video. I sorely wish I lived in such a beautiful place. I have long been a fan of the r9t and the 2021 models look nicer than ever. I recently bought a Ducati Scambler and commute for 40 minutes through central Paris and outskirts and the Ducati seems as good as it can get for the purposes but...I am tempted to switch to the r9t, just because it is so beautiful, well crafted and reliable. Have you tried it in dense city traffic? I spend half the time filtering and I'm concerned that the extra weight and width would be a handicap. I also have a couple of gripes with Ducati: the shift between first and neutral is pretty rough and it really heats up. Have you had any gear issues with the r9t? I think that the 2021 range has also made improvements in that area.
Definitely a smooth Rider,
& a great looking day, albeit chilly ;)
tbh, not a fan of that scheme,
but I do like the model, especially the lightweight w/o the water-cooled radiator
RSMF
Ah good to hear from you again sir!
Gorgeous and love the engine rumble!
Me too!
nice review again mr F, thank you, but have you seen how large your helmet looks at 2:56 ? It's just how the shadow casts on the bumper of the blue Toyota :) made me smile anyway :)
Well I have a very large head!
Nice review, covered all the bases really and nice looking bike. Some of the retro models don't do it for me but i like that one. Did you do the walk around near a nuclear reactor ? Lots of buzzing until you rode away.
Yes dodgy mic connection I think - sorry about that...
I bought one in 2015 when it came out wth back cowl single seat etc.. I found the back end wobbled when i came to junctions and roundabouts etc.. and thought the double headlights were so plastic etc.. eventually sold it .. bought the new Z900RS.. so looking fwd to your review.. havent even seen it in flesh..
My review on the Kwak is coming up - stay tuned!
What a great way to get rid of your old model engines.
Engine's a plus for me, that thing's been to the moon and back with constant iterations. I take tried and tested over new and improved every time.
No waterpump to frag.
Nicely done as always TMF, how would you rate this R9T next to the R1200R? I recently had a 1200R as a loan bike and loved it, I’ve previously ridden the R9T scrambler and same as yourself, didn’t like it and had subsequently ruled out all R9Ts as a future purchase.
Easy - R9T without a doubt....
You drove a standard RnineT in Oct 2017!
Did TMF forget? haha
Yup! Short memory....
TheMissendenFlyer haha, next should defo be the scrambler with normal tyres and the fatter seat. If you can fit it!
Another great review - thank you.
Thank you for watching - great to have you along...
But it does have a fuel gauge. You were probably confused by the German spelling "Trip Meter". Great review. They are very nice bikes. I am going to have to arrange a demo ride on one of the range soon.
Ja - wunderbar!
Lovely. And the sound. Just sounds right. I'd compare this more to the Ducati Monster over the Bonneville. Which of those would you go for?
Out of the Monster and Bonnie? ...Bonneville...
A real beauty for sure. I too am a big fan of a more "simple" bike, and this is a nice one. Along those lines, I would love to see you test ride a Guzzi V7 and/or V9. They also, (on paper), seem to check the boxes for me.
Yes I'd love to ride a Guzzi too!
Only the cool kids get to ride a Guzzi 😉😂
Very true.....
Please could you let me know if you had to choose between the BMW Nine T 2020 model and the New Ducati Scrambler 1100 Sport Pro which one would you choose. I have not had a chance to test ride either of these bikes due to the lockdown but will do when I can. However keen to know your thoughts. Thanks Shon
Scrambler I think...close call though...
Beautiful bike! I feel like it’s a bit overpriced it based on lack of technology and use of an old gen boxer engine. That said, BMW keeps selling them at the premium price so hard to blame them for increasing prices each year. Wonder if any of your viewers know roughly what BMW’s gross margin is on this bike at current pricing. My guess is 40% at full retail and 25% after dealer year end discounts. Totally guessing here so I could be way off. Great review as always!
Cheers Pete - Market forces and all that, people will only pay for the value they perceive!
TheMissendenFlyer so true and prices won’t come down until demand does. I was so close to buying one 3 years ago at an end of season dealership discount of -$2k off sticker price. Wish I had when you see what BMW is charging now!
Awesome bike just costs too much...same model in Australia $25000....so the uk has one thing going for it
Ouch... $16,950 in Canada, and our dollar is about the same as yours
Just checked the site here and its from 25k :( www.bmwmotorrad.com.au/motorcycles/heritage/r-ninet/
Maybe it's a chip on the shoulder tax
Contact SC let me know where you live and I'll courier all the chips to yoou as I don't eat them
Cosbro love to own, out of my affordability unfortunately.
Fantastic video! I'm currently tempted to return to biking after 14 years away from two wheels. I feel the RNineT could be the perfect choice as I've always had a thing for naked retros (previous bikes included a 1200 Bandit and 995i Speedtriple). Usage would weekend blasts for a few hours and may be the odd tour. How do you think the bike would be with an after market screen for touring? Also considering an R1200R or possibly the RS, but that feels a bit too cumbersome. Keep up the excellent work!
I think a screen would spoil it's looks personally - but it is a personal choice!
Thanks for the quick response! Yes you could right about spoiling the looks. I've seen one or two with small fly screen type affairs and have thought they looked fine, but I guess any weather protection would be very limited. My previous 1200 Bandit had something similar but I doubt I did more than 200 miles in a day, from memory that wasn't an issue then. More thought required...
Single seat with pillion foot pegs?
Seriously lovely looking machine,and i don't say that very often these days. That price though....ouch.
Yes it is a beauty isn't it.....
Would it be possible to get a review on the Kawasaki Z650, would be nice as a comparison to the MT07? Thanks 😊
I'll see what I can do!
Still got a be the Z900RS best looking retro by far
Interesting choice
Those roads are really narrow, it’d be tough getting a motorcycle with a sidecar through there.
Great looking bike and another great review. Thank you. I noticed it has passenger pegs. Is it a pain to get the seat cowl off if you wanted to have a passenger? Thanks again
I don't honestly know Tim...someone here may..
Hi Tim there is just one bolt securing rear seat so...
15,549$ in USA my F700gs was 13,000 out the door with panniers
Yes these are quite expensive machines.....
Joseph Potterf that's good value price in USA - just hitting 18,000 euros here in Ireland
How come you get all the sunny days up there? It always seems grotty down here in Hampshire!
I pick them very carefully! ...you don't hear about all the cancelled rides!
What are your impressions of the dry clutch? That is one of the features of the R Nine T that I'm on the fence about. The other would be the tube type tires.
Is it a dry clutch??? You sure??
To be honest, I'm not sure about anything. lol The US spec lists a single plate dry clutch. If I remember correctly, I read that the oil cooled GS that the R Nine T drive train is derived from was also a dry clutch.
Isn't that the "pure" model, without any electronics? The vanilla one from previous years had a TFT dash between the clocks with the trip computer, fuel gauge and all the basic stuff you'd expect. The "pure" version was a variant with the electronics stripped out afaik ... ?
img.newatlas.com/bmw-r-ninet-r90-review-road-test-3.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&h=670&q=60&w=1000&s=31c77e1e1d0e2ec00aa504721751d5b5
^^ That used to be the dash ?
I am told this is the "standard" bike (albeit with a fancy heritage paint job) - I think the Pure has more basic suspension etc.....I'll find out next week as I'm due to ride one, stay tuned!
Enjoyable review.
Just a thought - you got a fair bit of pixelation in that video.
I believe it's UA-cam doing that to your video...maybe an ND filter might help. (gives the impression of going faster too! :-D )
Yes true - I think it's YT that does that, annoying because the original footage is as sharp as you like...
It's doing it because presumably you shot in 1080 or 4K but UA-cam vids are replayed at much lower resolution rates (720 is common as is 480) and essentially the website can't keep up with the detail involved when things are moving, as on a bike.
It happens a lot on motovlogs.
An ND filter forces the GoPro to widen its aperture and basically blurs the countryside going past making 2 net effects: 1. the pixelation should disappear 2. the blurring makes it seem as if you're travelling a lot faster.
Many professional setups use these filters all the time to give just that effect.
Tom Scott has a good video on explaining the pixelation thing - hopefully I've explained it so it makes sense.
Wow, you sound just like Frankie from FrankieonPC!
Do they have a strawberry R9T as well?
Possibly.....??
Am I missing something but would this bike be even better with the latest water cooled boxer engine? If there was a choice of engines would folks still pick the 'old engine?
Very good point!