My brother was a fireman on the South African engines and I remember how often he came home barely able to walk after an apple run to Elgin and over the various mountain passes. He turns 70 next week and he still relives those glory days through these videos. You can still see his passion for steam: it's something one never loses. The sight and sound of these queens still thrills one's soul. Thanks for the awesome videos!!
Mitchell Hogg. It's very difficult to maintain traction on a hill like that with Wet Rails and that many coaches behind you no matter how much you sand the track but I think that Driver would be more than happy to let an armchair expert like yourself show him how it's done properly.
@@davidellis279 well when you consider that thats supposed to be the most powerful passenger locomotive Britain ever produced...pulling a relatively short train...seems like it's struggling just a little bit too much to downright dismiss driver error
@@davidellis279 these trains used to thunder up and down those lines except twice as long and to extremely strict timetables they simply couldn't afford slip-ups like that. Sure the driver recovered it excellently but it shouldn't of happened in the first place
Mitchell Hogg. I've Never seen a train with 20 coaches on in my life as that's 600 tons in coaches alone before anybody gets on board, the Duchess Class was one of the most powerful locomotives ever built and that was probably half the problem, if you can't get grip it doesn't matter how much power you have it will slip and there's no getting around it, as soon as you open that regulator that power is transmitted to the wheels and with 300 tons plus passengers on board and only just over 100 tons holding it to the wet track it's not surprising on that Gradient the loco slipped, not a lot the driver can do about it.
Superb work from the crew wouldve resulted in no struggle at all. This is meant to be the 2nd most powerful steam locomotive ever to run on british tracks
I've seen this video several times. I'm always impressed by the 'recovery skills' of the crew, and whilst not doubting the difficulties Hemerdon throws at 'the unsuspecting', the engine was obviously ready, with a full head of steam, and no obvious leaks around the cylinders ... I still find this a little unusual - perhaps the initial approach was too gentle. Al.
Hemerdon was always a killer that needed to be taken at a rush even withe a King. I have often wondered why it was designed with such a savage finish when a bit more work in construction would have eased things. Pacifics don't take kindly to being forced to apply maximum torque at lower speeds.
@@lisastallingskeelor3328 Yeah, Lisa enhanced by her(the loco's)appealing and pleasing appearance! It's just a shame that more of this Class of Locomotive were not saved-they had wonderful names such as Duchess of Atholl and Duchess of Montrose for instance.....Oh! and Yes, the Cars(Coaches) especially the Dining ones are alluring
Rusty rails , empty sand boxes , makes for a trying time for both driver and loco ! Congrats to fireman for keeping up a full head of steam , and to the driver , "Well done" persistence pays !
I did some work on this engine when it was owned by Billy Butlin and had a cracked firebox at Bressingham Steam Museum in Norfolk. They had the Royal Scot there too!
Interesting. As a rule of thumb the Duchess with somewhere in the region of 2,000-2,400hp at its disposal, has a similar capacity to a class 47 (Nominally 2,500hp, less any train heating demand). But the problem on hills is that while a 47 has 12 driving wheels the Duchess only has SIX ! Therefore the Duchess has to put more power through each of its six drivers than the diesel does with 12 wheels. Hence is more likely to wheel slip and loose any momentum, so ends up having to "Slog" up the hill, using pure "guts". If a steam loco slips as badly as the Duchess is heard too, the driver is obliged, to shut & then reopen the regulator (power handle). Otherwise both wheels and the rail head can be damaged. Obviously momentum is lost when the regulator is closed, even momentarily, and being a superheated loco, there is a slight further delay in getting the power back to the wheels. As an ex Exeter Driver many years ago, I drove numerous Diesels up & down this gradient, and even HST's noticed the grade. But Diesels are a lot simpler to drive, than the skills required to coax a steam loco up such gradients. So full marks to the crew driving the Duchess up Hemerdon in this piece of film !!!!
My father was a mainline fireman out of the Willesden sheds, back in the days when it was LMS, always went to work in a nice white collared shirt,but often came home (not the same day) with same shirt ripped from sweating. They were truly great strong men.
could have had a diesel on the rear, but, that is one coach less, that is say 40 bums on seats that is lost, the duchess has more than enough power for 10 coaches, if the rails had been dry, she would have romped up the big hill.
ivansaric33 3350hp. 40,000 lb-ft tractive torque. The Coronation class is the most powerful steam locomotive ever to grace British railways. She could do the London to Glasgow run average in 85 to 90 miles per hour only needing to stop once for water. When you consider that she was built in 1938 I think that's rather incredible!
If they take just 1 car off, it might be 10x easier to get up the hill? Gosh, even an electric hand car on the back pushing, might give it just enough of a push to solve the issue?
Duchess? Plenty of power. not enough grip (on slipery rails). New Hitachi IET? plenty of grip but not much power (I went up here last week on a fully loaded 10 car train - down to about 20 M.P.H. over the top). I am sure these will fail when conditions are not right. Watch this space. The load should be down to 9 coaches for steam and only use the BIG engines - This one, Tornado, Duke, King, Clan Line, (M N), Princess...then possibly Scotsman, A4, Britannia or maybe a Castle
Kings routinely took 11 up the bank, Castles and Counties 9, Halls and Granges 8. I'm sure 6233 would have found no problem whatever if it had managed to keep its feet because its tractive effort is the same as King and the boiler is vast but that's 4-6-2s for you.
@@bfcmik Wouldn't be surprised is they dropped the max to 9, that's not a criticism of the loco but -- you know how the current version of bean counters think.
Providing steam to climb the bank. Unfortunately the driver couldn't use it at the expected rate. After a couple of slips , if it's on the redline , which with ten on it'll need to be, the valves ll lift. Fuck all you can do about it, keep feeding the fire and don't overfill the boiler to try and keep her quiet, she'll prime and then it really is game over!
Julian Bassett Hi Julian, no such railway lines in North Devon, all in the South. Taunton, Exeter, Torquay, Plymouth.. Can assure the Kings, Castles, Halls were built for such tracks, and were generally masters of the gradients. Regards, Phil
I spoke to one of the people restoring KE1 many years ago, and he told me that there was much more weight on the rear coupled axle than the official figures admitted. If you add the extra from the torque transfer, it would be even more. It would be nice , but impracticable, to do a comparison in similar conditions, though.
One reason that The Great Bear was a "one-off" was because of its route availability - mainly confined to the Paddington - Bristol route - the GWR really had no need for Pacifics when the Saints and Stars could suffice for express passenger work. I'm sure others here could come up with other reasons. Also, on the South Devon banks they would double-head 4-4-0s, Bulldogs and the like. Nice bit of filming there - thanks for sharing !
LMS semies were never made for steep banks like this, this was more for the powerful King class and Castle class, the old adage is true `horses for courses` and with the `Kings` being more lighter in weight and yet more powerful is the reason they were made for these west country gradients.
i think i can...i think i can...i think i can...i think i can...i think i can........... i knew i could ....i knew i could......i knew i could......i knew i could... ;-)))
This is a great video, don't get me wrong, but to all the steam "purists" who will jump to defend these sorts of trips....this is the very reason why diesels are mandatory these days on many steam excursion trips. Locos like this, struggling on lines that often have regular passenger trains running on them, can cause delays for those trains, and do nothing to keep Network Rail on side to approve the trips. Network Rail, or at least many in senior positions within it, have no time for steam excursion trips on main lines, and this sort of incident, which is becoming too frequent, and could have been avoided by more foward planning, does nothing to assist in securing permission in the future.
Eat your heart out you Americans this is British Engineering at it's best with nice clean lines, this is what steam engines should look like not like the untidy American locomotive look of valves, pipes and all kinds of equipment bolted all over the boiler.
Oh , come on doug . give credit to the 3985, 4014 and 844's of this majestic railway network . [nice to see the 4014 big boy running again , our loco's could not pull 6 miles of freight ].
My brother was a fireman on the South African engines and I remember how often he came home barely able to walk after an apple run to Elgin and over the various mountain passes. He turns 70 next week and he still relives those glory days through these videos. You can still see his passion for steam: it's something one never loses. The sight and sound of these queens still thrills one's soul. Thanks for the awesome videos!!
How’s your brother doing now?
Oh! Wow,that climb was hellish. Well done the men on board who babied her all the way,and,never gave up. Excellent .
well that's just it, you cant give up, you have to find a way to get up
That's a real driver, never give up on the old lady she got there in the end.
On the comtrary, a real driver would never have allowed the wheels to slip under the engine
Mitchell Hogg. It's very difficult to maintain traction on a hill like that with Wet Rails and that many coaches behind you no matter how much you sand the track but I think that Driver would be more than happy to let an armchair expert like yourself show him how it's done properly.
@@davidellis279 well when you consider that thats supposed to be the most powerful passenger locomotive Britain ever produced...pulling a relatively short train...seems like it's struggling just a little bit too much to downright dismiss driver error
@@davidellis279 these trains used to thunder up and down those lines except twice as long and to extremely strict timetables they simply couldn't afford slip-ups like that. Sure the driver recovered it excellently but it shouldn't of happened in the first place
Mitchell Hogg. I've Never seen a train with 20 coaches on in my life as that's 600 tons in coaches alone before anybody gets on board, the Duchess Class was one of the most powerful locomotives ever built and that was probably half the problem, if you can't get grip it doesn't matter how much power you have it will slip and there's no getting around it, as soon as you open that regulator that power is transmitted to the wheels and with 300 tons plus passengers on board and only just over 100 tons holding it to the wet track it's not surprising on that Gradient the loco slipped, not a lot the driver can do about it.
Wow what a struggle but superb work from the crew saved the day (and the engine!). And great commitment from the film work!
Superb work from the crew wouldve resulted in no struggle at all. This is meant to be the 2nd most powerful steam locomotive ever to run on british tracks
Great camera location for Hemerdon. Great sound and real steam engine driving wonderful
Great effort from the crew for not giving up and getting her up the hill
Great video. So nice to see mainline steam with no diesel to spoil it!
A box on the back might have come in handy here, but the crew got her going regardless.
I've seen this video several times.
I'm always impressed by the 'recovery skills' of the crew, and whilst not doubting the difficulties Hemerdon throws at 'the unsuspecting', the engine was obviously ready, with a full head of steam, and no obvious leaks around the cylinders ... I still find this a little unusual - perhaps the initial approach was too gentle.
Al.
Superb job from the crew to get her over the top on Hemerdon.
"I think I can, I think I can... I KNOW I CAN, I KNOW I CAN!"
I thought I could, I thought I could, i thought i could.....!
I was about to type that but you beat me to it!
Epic - sanders to the max and great patient driving !!!!
Wonderful.video
I do so miss the grace and beauty of the steam age.
What a magnificent sight to see! Well worth chasing the train! Thank you.
Amazing compilation. Well done. ;-) Greetings from Argentina. Best regards. Carlos.
Thank you! Excellent camera work and sound. And you're dead right about the crew's control of the locomotive on Hemerdon.
Hemerdon was always a killer that needed to be taken at a rush even withe a King. I have often wondered why it was designed with such a savage finish when a bit more work in construction would have eased things. Pacifics don't take kindly to being forced to apply maximum torque at lower speeds.
Like thunder in the distance,growing ever louder,then suddenly coming into view in all its might and splendour-unparalleled.
Gives a whole new meaning to “I think I can, I think I can.” The little engine that could.
Wonderful 'human' inspiration only found in Steam Locomotives that probably for many of us reflect our lives. Luv your comment
Classic Britain I love the sound of this engine.
@@lisastallingskeelor3328 Yeah, Lisa enhanced by her(the loco's)appealing and pleasing appearance! It's just a shame that more of this Class of Locomotive were not saved-they had wonderful names such as Duchess of Atholl and Duchess of Montrose for instance.....Oh! and Yes, the Cars(Coaches) especially the Dining ones are alluring
6233 normally storms up Hemerdon as various youtube videos over the years show. The railhead conditions must have been a problem today.
Vandals with grease buckets perhaps, you never know these days.
Great stuff - the fireman has just the right mix and the driver has great reflex action on the regulator. Well enjoyed, thanks for posting!
The wonderful power and sound of steam
What a professional job to get her over the top with 10 on. Well done.
They used to take 14+ over Shap day in, day out. Hemerdon looked a brute!
Brilliant. What a treat. Just waiting for the first glimpse of her at 36sec is wonderful. Boy! Was she powering along! Absolutely fantastic.
2:22 i was just imagining them all waiting for the train only for it to come from the other direction...
Rusty rails , empty sand boxes , makes for a trying time for both driver and loco !
Congrats to fireman for keeping up a full head of steam , and to the driver , "Well done" persistence pays !
I think rusty rail would have more traction. The track here looks very smooth and shiny, hence why it struggled to get up.
Great video. You can almost feel the driver and fireman "willing" the loco to maintain traction as she struggled up the bank. Excellent stuff.
I`m sure I saw the Duchess of Sutherland when I was a train spotter in the 60s. Probably saw her at Crewe.
This was an amazing shot
A brilliant recovery. This was the reason the GWR stuck to 4-6-0s, for better adhesion on the Devon banks.
Superb shots !
Wonderful stuff. Surprised she was only 6 minutes late through Totnes.
I did some work on this engine when it was owned by Billy Butlin and had a cracked firebox at Bressingham Steam Museum in Norfolk. They had the Royal Scot there too!
Put her next to a Southern West Country class and you have a nice comfy pair of slippers.
Wonderful video, she really struggled up Hemerdon!
Nice footage. Pity 6229 or 6220 isn't in steam anymore. It would be nice to see A streamlined Stanier running?
I was exhausted by the time I got up Hemerdon bank.. I thought I wasn't going to make it !!!!!!
Great footage. Keep them coming👍🏻
I can never get over just how many carriages they can haul.
Interesting. As a rule of thumb the Duchess with somewhere in the region of 2,000-2,400hp at its disposal, has a similar capacity to a class 47 (Nominally 2,500hp, less any train heating demand). But the problem on hills is that while a 47 has 12 driving wheels the Duchess only has SIX ! Therefore the Duchess has to put more power through each of its six drivers than the diesel does with 12 wheels. Hence is more likely to wheel slip and loose any momentum, so ends up having to "Slog" up the hill, using pure "guts".
If a steam loco slips as badly as the Duchess is heard too, the driver is obliged, to shut & then reopen the regulator (power handle). Otherwise both wheels and the rail head can be damaged. Obviously momentum is lost when the regulator is closed, even momentarily, and being a superheated loco, there is a slight further delay in getting the power back to the wheels.
As an ex Exeter Driver many years ago, I drove numerous Diesels up & down this gradient, and even HST's noticed the grade. But Diesels are a lot simpler to drive, than the skills required to coax a steam loco up such gradients. So full marks to the crew driving the Duchess up Hemerdon in this piece of film !!!!
She really gave those spectators a show!
I bet the inside of the passenger cars are lovely.
AWESOME . . . . .
thanks for sharing Dave & Deb, there is always 1 who gets in the way when you take a picture or video (lol)
Super vide Alan, thumbs up :)
What a beauty she is!
As ex BR, poor bloody fireman had a wet shirt
My father was a mainline fireman out of the Willesden sheds, back in the days when it was LMS, always went to work in a nice white collared shirt,but often came home (not the same day) with same shirt ripped from sweating. They were truly great strong men.
Wot a beauty !!!!
Wonderful video and so well filmed
I love your vids
Hi Alex, Could we use a snippet of this on our sites? With full credit of course.
Certainly wasn't short of steam going up Hemerdon!
Not short of steam or power, but short of friction.
The rails looked very shiny. More, smaller wheels give better grip.
Good video good locations A lot away or spending
unbelievable power..
I’m an American. I’ve not yet been to England. Can someone tell me just how big this hill is?
It's the forth steepest gradient on the British Rail network. 1/42 over 2.5 miles.
One of the steepest in the country
there's something about a Choo Choo that makes you feel happy........
Serious lack of traction in the dry so in the wet I assume it would not make it.
Does she shift, stunning performance!
Myriaddsystems 95mph.
Could kick an A4s ass anytime with the right crew and the right track
It struggled up hemerdon bank. Could have done with a Deisel on the rear.
could have had a diesel on the rear, but, that is one coach less, that is say 40 bums on seats that is lost, the duchess has more than enough power for 10 coaches, if the rails had been dry, she would have romped up the big hill.
No Mate just some sand in the boxes.
Epic!
surely over-loaded ? blowing off not short of steam, short of adhesion weight vs train resistance
Do any of these banks have cash points?
Super video!
Great compilation, the crew did well to get her over the top. Was the railhead wet?
Of course it would be. The hot steam from the pistons would make it wet.
The power :)
ivansaric33 3350hp. 40,000 lb-ft tractive torque.
The Coronation class is the most powerful steam locomotive ever to grace British railways. She could do the London to Glasgow run average in 85 to 90 miles per hour only needing to stop once for water. When you consider that she was built in 1938 I think that's rather incredible!
Who on earth would thumb this down?
A diesel lover
How much of a hill/mountain is Hemerdon?
If they take just 1 car off, it might be 10x easier to get up the hill? Gosh, even an electric hand car on the back pushing, might give it just enough of a push to solve the issue?
magical
Wow!
looks like duchess of sutherland is struggling to get grip
Duchess? Plenty of power. not enough grip (on slipery rails). New Hitachi IET? plenty of grip but not much power (I went up here last week on a fully loaded 10 car train - down to about 20 M.P.H. over the top). I am sure these will fail when conditions are not right. Watch this space. The load should be down to 9 coaches for steam and only use the BIG engines - This one, Tornado, Duke, King, Clan Line, (M N), Princess...then possibly Scotsman, A4, Britannia or maybe a Castle
Kings routinely took 11 up the bank, Castles and Counties 9, Halls and Granges 8. I'm sure 6233 would have found no problem whatever if it had managed to keep its feet because its tractive effort is the same as King and the boiler is vast but that's 4-6-2s for you.
Don't they sand the tracks over there?
Some adhesion problems I guess? Should normaly be an easy job on load 10!
10 is the maximum a steam loco is allowed to pull up the banks unaided. Always been so
@@bfcmik Wouldn't be surprised is they dropped the max to 9, that's not a criticism of the loco but -- you know how the current version of bean counters think.
and safety valves blowing off all the way. what was the fireman doing?
Providing steam to climb the bank. Unfortunately the driver couldn't use it at the expected rate. After a couple of slips , if it's on the redline , which with ten on it'll need to be, the valves ll lift. Fuck all you can do about it, keep feeding the fire and don't overfill the boiler to try and keep her quiet, she'll prime and then it really is game over!
I felt like getting out and giving her a push
It's a pity there wasn't a chiropodist on board.
He could have given them a toe.
😁😁😁
Whistling giants, 19h55 south African time.
genial los trenes
I wonder how a King would have fared, with the same tractive effort but no trailing truck?
A bit better, one would hope! The Kings were designed with the N Devon banks in mind I believe.
Julian Bassett
Hi Julian, no such railway lines in North Devon, all in the South.
Taunton, Exeter, Torquay, Plymouth..
Can assure the Kings, Castles, Halls were built for such tracks, and were generally masters of the gradients. Regards, Phil
I spoke to one of the people restoring KE1 many years ago, and he told me that there was much more weight on the rear coupled axle than the official figures admitted. If you add the extra from the torque transfer, it would be even more. It would be nice , but
impracticable, to do a comparison in similar conditions, though.
@@philsteer1414 Naturally I meant South Devon Phil.
@@julianbassett5172 South Devon banks
They almost never blow the whistle on these runs
At "WHISTLE" boards they do!
Now we all know why Banking diesels are on most specials. Have to think of the Commuters behind.
Historty lesson, This the reason Swindon never built any more Pacifics after the Great Bear!
Crap.
One reason that The Great Bear was a "one-off" was because of its route availability - mainly confined to the Paddington - Bristol route - the GWR really had no need for Pacifics when the Saints and Stars could suffice for express passenger work. I'm sure others here could come up with other reasons. Also, on the South Devon banks they would double-head 4-4-0s, Bulldogs and the like. Nice bit of filming there - thanks for sharing !
Beats one of Gresley’s magnificent A4s, but only just.
thats why the germans use 3 locos with 4 axels each
Cool
LMS semies were never made for steep banks like this, this was more for the powerful King class and Castle class, the old adage is true `horses for courses` and with the `Kings` being more lighter in weight and yet more powerful is the reason they were made for these west country gradients.
Never heard of Shap and Beatock mate
Also don't forget Camden bank from a standing start
i think i can...i think i can...i think i can...i think i can...i think i can........... i knew i could ....i knew i could......i knew i could......i knew i could... ;-)))
Poor baby...14 wheel slips on that Hemerdon grade...
This is a great video, don't get me wrong, but to all the steam "purists" who will jump to defend these sorts of trips....this is the very reason why diesels are mandatory these days on many steam excursion trips. Locos like this, struggling on lines that often have regular passenger trains running on them, can cause delays for those trains, and do nothing to keep Network Rail on side to approve the trips. Network Rail, or at least many in senior positions within it, have no time for steam excursion trips on main lines, and this sort of incident, which is becoming too frequent, and could have been avoided by more foward planning, does nothing to assist in securing permission in the future.
Stink the driver May of misjudged the signal at the top of the bank
I TRY SO HARD...in the end...it doesn't matter...
Eat your heart out you Americans this is British Engineering at it's best with nice clean lines, this is what steam engines should look like not like the untidy American locomotive look of valves, pipes and all kinds of equipment bolted all over the boiler.
Oh , come on doug . give credit to the 3985, 4014 and 844's of this majestic railway network . [nice to see the 4014 big boy running again , our loco's could not pull 6 miles of freight ].
Lucky it didn’t rain.
Clan Line and her crew showed how it's done last year...in conditions that were, if anything, worse: ua-cam.com/video/2t6AVOKKB2U/v-deo.html
Now you can see why the Great Western did not use pacifics
They need a New South Wales 38 class.
Kent Robison .....3801 ;)
Maybe someone greased the tracks
dam thing cant seem to get a grip on the rails
40,000 lbf tract I’ve effort will not be denied
That is actually what the problem is these locomotives are too powerful for their size
3:00 ALMOST SOUNDS DISTINCTIVELY AS A HELICOPTER OFF IN THE DISTANCE
what a catch! i wish i were there! but alas i'm not, i'm over here at home!
Who the Hell is the driver he wants a good rollicking were are the good old BR driver s