Appreciating Old CRPGs & The CRPG Revival
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- Опубліковано 24 лис 2018
- Old is gold but new stuff can be good too ..whether its a game from 1992 or 2012 .. give it a chance and form your own opinions
Music used - Planescape Torment- Fall from Grace Theme
Darklands (OST) - Lhomme Arme
Kings Field IV Music - 20 - Dark Reality
Credit for videos I used that are not my own
My Review With Ozzie Arcane for gateway to savage frontier - • Video
Ultima 6 SNES - • Ultima VI: The False P...
Aklabeth- • [Apple II] Akalabeth -...
Etrian Oddysey trailer belongs to ATLUS
Wasteland 2 trailer belongs to InXile
Labyrinth of Refrain trailer belongs to Nippon Ichi Software
Stygian belongs to Cultic Games
Black Geyser belongs to GrapeOcean Technologies - Ігри
I totally love crpgs i'm 17 so i didn't born at the time but i like the feeling of playing wizardry 6 until 3:am while drawing my map that feeling it's just magic
Wizardry really seems like it was loved more in Japan then it was over here. A Japanese studio acquired the IP when the original developer went out of business. Not to mention that Wizardry and Ultima were the main inspirations for the original Dragon Quest which birthed the JRPG genre.
To me, story-driven cRPG is the best way for people to experience the craziest idea one can come up with. Why story? Because good words can make you easily build the image in your head. Why RPG? Because you can play a role whatever the best suits you, and the most effectively immersive way so far.
So, imo, cRPG and tRPG have so much potential that are far more than just "games" that simply for fun. I wish there were more people making good use of them. It would be the best media for art and education.
Fantastic video my friend. Thanks for such a thorough look at CRPG history. I started gaming way back in the 80's back in Russia on a European Nintendo console called "Dendi". I can always go back to retro games I haven't played today and appreciate the art and ingenuity that went into them. Artists produce their best work when limited by their medium (in this case hardware tech.)
Really am grateful for a younger gamer’s view-point and appreciation of older game media. Thank you for the great video! I hope to get more like these.
Obsidian is announcing a new game next week at the game awards. Can't wait to see what it will be. The advertisement for the announcement looks really interesting.
Edit: I remember I had no idea what to do in Lionheart...I have to go back and play it sometime.
Hey man, just want to say I like your videos very much. Thanks for making them :) Cheers
Very very well said. All of it! Clear, to the point and obviously in love with the genre! :D Thank you for this piece.
This video is professional and respectful to all crpg fans. I enjoyed your positive outlook on the debates of different generations of gamers. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for this great video, dude. I love oldschool RPG's.
Thanks! you ever try underrail
@@RetrospectiveGaming Nah, not yet. But I want to try it now.
and here we are, with baldurs gate 3 coming out, wasteland 3, pathfinder: wrath of righteous.. really happy to see this sub-genre getting back with some quality games
I have mono rn and binge watching your videos helps the pain dude, I love your videos
Get better soon! .. I'm also bed ridden for awhile due to my chrons's disease acting up ..reading the comments help me pass time
This video's teasing at least two reviews I'd really like to watch :)
damn it's bean 2 years since your "crpgs aren't dead" video! time flies I need to do something with my life
I must confess to you guys, i don't like dungeon crawlers that much, i prefer something more like Fallout 1/2 and underrail, i search for a balance between combat, npc interaction and problems solving. Dungeon crawlers focus too much in combat and team development. That's why Might and magic series and wizardry series turned me out.
There are plenty of alternative ones that don't involve Dungeon Crawling. Wasteland 2/3, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pillars of Eternity, the Infinity Engine games--kind of, if we stretch the definition--and cult classics like Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. You just gotta find your specific poison to take.
I have played almost all Infinite engine games: Planescape torment, Bg1/2, Icewind dale 1... I still need to finish Icewind dale 2. I have played VtM, both of them.Hahaha
@@diogobruno4930 Ever touched the Neverwinter Nights series? Endless CRPG adventures await you there with or without friends.
@@SpartanWolf222 I played only the first one, haha
@@diogobruno4930 NWN2 is pretty good on its own; I like to think of it as the tub chocolate ice cream comfort food of RPGs as the story it tells is somewhat by the numbers, but man does it feel like BioWare levels of character building and ooze personality through the smallest moments.
Have you played Divinity Original Sin 2? It wont disappoint.
Fine, I'll buy Under Rail, it's been in my wish-list for months, but you've convinced me.
Whoa, I just happened to be concepting out an original RPG modelled off the Infinity Engine games, but with more modern game design choices. The kind of stuff you could reasonably expect out of Zelda, Avatar, and D&D's ToEE / PotA, with a wide variety of diverse gameplay mechanics, from Magicka, Age of Empires, Harvest Moon, Elder Scrolls, Nexon K-RPGs, FF Tactics, and a few other sources.
The biggest hurdle is obviously coming up with an original ruleset to use. I love D&D and all, but you can't just gank the entire ruleset and expect it to fly with Wizards of the Coast.
I like the idea of freeclassing, skill-based systems, but I still want to have a bit more structure. Being a "Paladin" or a "Druid" feels like a job advancement you'd have to work for and prove yourself worthy of. So the class system is a bit like Maple Story's first generation characters (fighter, thief, mage, ranger, and replace 'pirate' with 'monk'.)
Use the D&D OGL (open games license) like Pierre does for Knights of the Chalice.
sonedts Aw, shit, yes! Thanks! I'll check it out!
I grew up on the old CRPGs...many of the games you mentioned here form the 90's and early 2000's I played new. My first RPG was dungeon master on an Atari ST. I think the new games still have a way to go to reach the depth of old games.
Skyrim was great but it really needed the travel options of Morrowind with an option then to disable fast travel, and quest markers. These could be options for those that want to play them, but for me if we have all the travail systems Morrowind and a good horse I'd never use the map to fast travel. Skyrim's depth of world design, and quests were lacking I think in someways they did better than oblivion, but I want to get lost in caves like I always did back in the 90's when I played Daggerfall. I loved the combat and stealth mechanics in Skyrim though I think it is the second best elder scrolls game behind Morrowind....but that being said if they kept and expanded on Daggerfalls huge world and massive randomized dungeons, I think ever elder scrolls games could have been better, than giving us often uninspired quests with small hand drawn dungeons that did not offer much more than any other dungeon, save for a few rare exceptions.
Pathfinder Kingmaker is another great one but I never played it without the Turn-Based Combat mod. The game is so broken without it, because the party is almost uncontrollable. But there are not many memorable RPGs in the modern era. All the new Fallout games feel flat compared to the first 2. Divinity Original Sin and pillars of eternity lacked a lot of character customization and development...any time I can play my own class or a hybrid I will get more into the game. And most of the old games, as well as Skyrim and Pathfinder allowed that level of creation.
I do think there is room to add more depth to a Skyrim, or more character customization, with classless systems to Pillars of Eternity and Divinity Original Sin. and then just add an option to remove quest markers, and immersion breaking fast travel to help bridge the gap between the depth of the old games that made us think, yet can have the look, and mechanics capable with modern hardware technology. Those of us who like old games with bad graphics only like them because we can push past the graphics to reach the underling deep gameplay. But many of the newer games take out all the puzzle solving to instead focus on combat, but there is no reason they could not do both.
I do like Skyrim and Oblivion though for providing deep lore for us nerds that read and collect all the books, yet it still allows many player to skip them entirely. Adding more options like that can help bridge the gap between old school players and modern ones. Or something like Arcanum and Pathfinder Kingmaker with the Turn-Based Combat mod..allowing an option for turn based or realtime as the player seems fit. Arcanum I did not think did the real time well...but I guess I don't think Pathfinder kingmaker did it too well either. :) But I do think allowing options is a great way to reach the most people.
I don't think I have a bias or preference towards older/newer games. There are great games in every age regardless of the technology that goes into making them. You just have to find them.
By the way, as a big Mass Effect fan, I'm not offended by your opinion on the series. Different people see different things from a game. I personally like Mass Effect mostly because of its sci-fi setting, and never cared much about the romance (I actually never romanced with a character until ME3, and even then it was mostly out of curiosity). But it is hard to explain to someone with different life experience why I click with the setting so much.
Actually the similar scenario has happened to me on more than one game. The Witness is one of my absolute favorite games (the other one is Braid). Some people (like me) love The Witness to death, while others just can't get a single bit of it whatsoever. Even for games we both share a love with, I bet some of us love them for different reasons. Arcanum is also one of my all-time favorites. While there really is a lot to love about this game, would you believe what truly sold me on it was the books in it?
I'm glad you didn't take offense to the joke ..to be fair I have to play the trilogy again to give a fair judgment on it ..its been so long since I even tried them and I started with ME 2 .. I was the same way with Morrowind .. I started reading the books in game ..actually spend 2 hours one night in some dude's store reading all the books he had on his shelf ..without paying of course ..never played the witness but I did play a bit of braid back during the days of the XB 360
Good video! Personally I enjoy the old games more. Not only because of the mechanics, but also because of the graphics. MM4 Clouds of Xeen to me represents the way all RPG games should look like ;)
I thought it was funny when people complained that Torment: Tides of Numenera had too much text. Um isn't that a staple of CRPGs? Having lots of lore, details like a novel, and tons of choices to make? That's what makes this genre stand out from other Western RPGs like Witcher and Elder Scrollls. That and the strategic combat. It's a good thing that there are tons of descriptions and lore imo. It's what makes the isometric party-based CRPGs stand out in the crowd of other RPGs. I'm in the camp that really wants to play all the CRPGs that are worth playing, whether they are old or new. When I say CRPG I am referring mainly to the isometric party-based RPGs.
Retrospective gaming I got a question is it alright if you can do a review on classic doom.
I was wondering if anyone's ever asked you before, but what do you think of Adventurer Mode in Dwarf Fortress, and games like Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead?
Totally disagree. The best RPG is Fallout 76.
10/10 it just works!
76/10
it's alright, I guess
76% off!!!
Just wait for Diablo Immortal. Gonna be the greatest CRPG of ALL TIME
@@ricemenarq6230 I can't wait! I do need to buy a phone though, I hear I need to to play Diablo Immortal...
I used to play Ultima IV in high school. Since there was no internet nor even printed game guides, we usually had to painstakingly figure out each puzzle on our own over days or weeks though occasionally we'd get lucky and find someone irl who had passed that stage. We had to draw our own maps, too. RPGs were far more challenging then.
I have never played a CRPG until late 2020 Divinity original sin 2 and now I'm addicted to them and I'm hoping to OD myself with them.
I've been playing thru and finishing many of the old games i grew up with from the 90's lately and been having a blast but i do love projects like Daggerfall Unity/GZDOOM/Eduke that allow me to add mod support and modern controls and tone down or remove the blocky hud elements.
Currently playing Pathfinder Kingmaker. This game is something else and way more polished now than launch. 90% of the issues has been resolved, only the minor ones are left.
“Nostalgia - its delicate, but potent. Teddy told me that in Greek nostalgia literally means “the pain from an old wound.” It’s a twinge in your heart far more powerful than memory alone.” - Don Draper
CRPGs and their stories were a formative part of growing up for me and I still play all interesting new entries into the genre to this day.
I've loved gaming for several decades now and while I think the modern gaming landscape produces some fantastic titles - in spite of how genuinely disgusting and deplorable the corporate side of things has become of late - the one aspect that I can't help but think has outright _degenerated_ is the writing.
I can't remember the last time I've played a new game with an original, non-derivative story that didn't rely on trite as hell tropes, let alone one that actually dared touch on relevant topics to any substantial degree.
While the tech and much of the artistry behind game development has evolved and become more sophisticated, the writing has outright stalled for years and years now.
People thought cRPGs had no future... and then Larian Happened with their Original Sin 2, and blew everyone's fucking mind!
I'm one of those "old school" gamers whose CRPG tastes have really changed over the past 30 years. I began with the classics (Wizardry, Ultima, Might & Magic, Bard's Tale, Dragon Wars, AD&D Goldbox) and rode out the mid-90s CRPG 'Dark Age' until the revival with Baldur's Gate. (As an aside, someone should do a video on CRPGs from 1993-1998; with the exception of Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, this was not a good stretch). I largely rejected the old school games by the 2000s, viewing them as hopelessly dated and obsolete compared to the newer, story-driven RPGs that were coming to dominate the market.
Over the past 4-5 years, I've done almost a complete 180 on this. Going back to the older games is like a breath of fresh air. Because of the intense challenge, you NEED to learn the systems and master them. Without an automap or auto journal, you NEED to pay attention to your surroundings and keep your own map/notes. It feels so much more immersive to not have the developers constantly holding your hand. I'm playing Wizardry 7 again now and the game feels like a truly 'open world' in a way that, say, Witcher 3 does not. There's not HUD clutter everywhere, people throwing side quests at you every 5 steps, or mindless racing from one objective-point marker to the next. You learn about the world, the NPCs, and the lore by doing the work yourself, not through cutscenes or lots of exposition.
I think that there is plenty of room to incorporate this old school playstyle with modern elements. The Dark Souls/Bloodbourne games, while action-oriented, are extremely old school. Serpent in the Staglands incorporates gameplay and aesthetics from 1992 with modern touches like an in-game journal for you to keep your own notes. These quality of life improvements make the games more accessible to modern audiences while keeping their core experience intact.
i woudn't say we're in a golden age, but maybe a silver age would be more fiting, and maybe we'll achieve a golden age or something even better!
Just saw your video linked on rpgwatch.com, great stuff. You just got yourself a new subscriber
Sweet ..I used to go on that website all the time
How long do you have to play these older games before your eyes stop bleeding?
this is a wonderful video che, also did you see the metacritic scores for fallout 76? it is honestly beautiful to see people call out a bad game when you see and play one. BTW bethesda said they are going to use THE SAME CREATION ENGINE for starfield and the next elder scrolls....
Kudos for em!
Etrian Odyssey Untold and Untold 2 ! Old school dungeon crawling doesn’t get better than these games! 10/10 !!
I love RPGs but... I can't play older RPGs I mean this on DOS. I love Fallout, Arcanum or Baldur's Gate but a lot of older ones are too archaic for me. I tried to play Betrayal at Krondor but combat and graphic scared me. But this is maybe only BAK because I really enjoy Eye of the Beholder (but this game is simpler game in mechanics and looks better). I really prefer new "old ones" like Pillars of Eternity, Legend of Grimrock or Underrail.
one of the things i find interesting is how much point and click adventure games and crpgs have in ocmmon
they both were popular in the late 80's and 90's
everyone thinks they died in the early 2000's when they were still being made during that decade just by people not as well know
and they had a resurgence during the 2010's.
RetrospectiveGaming
Aw man...that looks so much like Suldanessalar (Baldurs Gate II) at 6:43!
0:16 - 0:28 - 'Go away! Stop waving your arms at me! Oh, no, there are 2 of them now! Leave me ALONE! Dang it! Now, a skeleton is doing it! Arrggh! Get lost!!'
The Skeleton animation is hilarious...looks like he is trying to swim
Hahahah! He's doing the back-stroke!!!
Shout out to etrian odyssey! Love em
Allright, allright. I'll buy this so called UnderRail already (it's for sale, yay!)
Got it free from somewhere few years ago. Never played it :d
Alternate video name CRPG second coming.
Playing wizardry 8 thru at 1080p with full Anti alaising at 144 fps is nice to say the least, nothing like getting my party wiped on a random nothing encounter by a giant horde army of bandits in full HD.
I got your video running in the background while I doing work with kids around. No need to curse. I'm thinking you're trying to succeed at streaming. The number of people who turn you off due to not being able to listen to you around mixed company will outnumber of people you get bu swearing. Very good content, just clean it up.
Underrail is really amazing game. I have spent about 500 hours on steam playing it. The feeling when your psionic is one man army is incredible.
Every playthrough .. I always go with a Psionic build
RetrospectiveGaming i know right? It's amazing build/class.!
I think the "golden age" (1990~2000) came "as is" because of the huge amount of experimentation from the developers. In the early days of this age there was no 2D acceleration and most has to be done by the CPU, from 95 ownwards there was direct draw and direct 3D yet most games had to endure the software rendering, then in 97 with the 3DFX series of 3D accelerated cards developers could create RPGs with less chore.
YO. DO A FALLOUT 1 AND 2 PLAYTHROUGH. THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW
I've been playing computer games - especially RPGs - since 1979 on the Commodore PET. Then, it was the Apple II+ and IIe. After that, it was the Commodore 64. And finally, the PC when the IBM clones could do more than 16 colors.
Dungeon crawlers are hit or miss for me, but when they do hit... oh boy it is the best. Have you ever played games like Moria or The Game of Dungeons? Do you consider them CRPGs?
Hey Che. Have you played Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar?
When it comes to western people being late to the party when it comes to the more hardcore RPGs of Japan, I feel like the stereotype of jRPGs being a joke scared folks away. But with localizations booming it started dying down.
I'd argue that to an extent, the nostalgia goggles argument is true, though not in the way those who spoke it wanted. Some of the more hardcore fans have bizarre standards and if you're not a great-ass game it somehow makes you not an RPG. Criticism is great, but pretending the flawed ones don't count helps no one, and nobody learns as a result.
The Steampunk dungeon crawler is Vaporum btw
@HardWarUK deep sky derelicts it's not a steampunk, it's a space salvager type of theme.
@HardWarUK I give a lot of love to Western RPGs .. wanted t o share some love for some Japanese Dungeon Crawlers I'm interested in..the game i was talking about is Vaporum store.steampowered.com/app/629690/Vaporum/
What scares me away is that Japanese games rarely seem to be rpgs. They seem to be linear and combat focused experiences, I don't play rpgs because I love the 'real time with pause' combat or 'tactical' turn based combat or simplistic and often poorly designed action combat systems like the original Gothic games or Vampire the masquerade bloodlines have. I can find better combat and higher production value in linear stories in other types of games than in most games I've seen described as 'jrpgs'. I don't find numbers addicting or grinding for colour coded loot that enjoyable. I prefer getting a wide array of abilities to play my way and for either less of an emphasis on 'looting' or for loot systems to have less randomization. It's way more satisfying to take that cool helmet or dragon skull right from the dude's head or dragon's skeleton I just killed. Better if there's more reasonable, consistent and logical ways for players to acquire goods like crafting, stealing, trading rather than clearing out the entire world's chicken or wolf population to randomly get a purple sword drop. I prefer it when the guy I was just fighting wearing the cool helmet drops the cool helmet upon death or can be robbed for it.
I want an rpg for the ability to roleplay, for an entertaining world or story or to see what I can get up to. I also really like a lot of sandbox games. If there's some jrpgs that shed their 'jrpg elements' like endless grinding. Like simplistic and repetitive fetch quests. Games that aren't all about battling endless ambushes. Games with an emphasis on story or a wide array of gameplay mechanics like a sandbox.
A game that has a consistent focus on branching, non linear, complex, engaging and elaborate objective, quest or mission designs part of a branching narrative. So that the player's experience is determined by the role they chose to play and will be very different if they had or then choose to play a different role. I don't mean choosing one of several completely linear stories or 'procedural' endless combat grinds either.
I think the only Japanese game I've come across that's tried anything like an rpg (or western rpg.) is Dragon's dogma. Yet the emphasis was still heavily on repetitive tasks, combat and grinding with a comparatively modest branching narrative and light sandbox elements (doing neither of the things I'm looking for.). A lot of this branching being somewhat inconsequential, different ways to reach the exact same conclusion having little or no impact on the story, branching rather than due to choices afforded to the player instead by whether the player had some item they had no idea was related to a quest with the direct ability to actually roleplaying being rare in the game.
The few japanese 'rpgs' I can find that aren't linear combat focused final fantasy clones seem to be essentially Zelda or God of war like action games such as Dark souls or monster hunter. Being all about the combat system and not about roleplaying. I can still appreciate these games but not as roleplaying games.
Hey Che, it's me, Logical Phallusy. I'm back on youtube... for now.
I'm old enough to have played the golden age games as they were released. Due to crowd funding and steam, we are in a new golden age.
Like old school fallout? Try underrail or atom.
Like infinity engine games? Shit, too many to list by this point, but at the moment play Kingmaker. Hell, go play the beamdog upgraded versions of the infinity engine games if you like, and you can even do it on your phone.
Liked PS:T? Play Numerenia.
Could go on endlessly. The older folk who bitch are blinded by nostalgia and have that "everything was better in the past" attitude.
I am very glad there's still people preaching about CRPG's. Elex for example is being hated by many, but loved by the others as well. To me Elex is excellent, its not perfect, but games like it are just top notch in today's gaming to me.
For me the best RPG ever is Betrayal at Krondor. It's a shame that there is no interest anymore to create something like that. Come on Neal Hallford, do a kickstarter for spiritual successor :)
You should review the New California mod for Fallout New Vegas
Its empty and dull not worth it imo.
Check out encased rpg... It also looks it will be a good crpg, its new on kickstarter
Will do
I am not even an old time, but i still prefer games from the past; Baldur's gate, Icewind dale, Arcanum, Avernum, Ultima... And the list goes on!
Can you recommend me some good modern CRPGs like divinity original sin 2?
Tyranny, Pillars of Exile, and Pathfinder: Kingmaker, for starters.
@@christianempire3909 Thank you.
You're welcome! @@atitana
Wasteland 2 is my current favorite, after I played DOS2 to death and beyond. Torment: Tides of Numenera and Pillars of Eternity are on the 'to continue' list, but both made a very positive first impression during the first hours I played them. You could also try the enhanced versions of the Icewind Dale series (which I personally like a bit better than Baldur's Gate)
@@christianempire3909 i would be really grateful if you pointed out to modern turn based crpgs, like underrail, atom rpg, or divinity original sin 1 & 2, i simply can't play action rpgs because my memory, my quick thinking and my atention are really low, i also can't play rts because of this, only platformers are more easy to me since they depend more on reflexes and i'm decent on them.
great video. art through adversity.
I would say I'm in the middle camp
CRPGs are a game of the D&D pen & paper game. JRPGs are D&D where you just watch an anime and have an auto-battle button on your remote control.
Che, how're you doing?
Perhaps Vaporum was that steampunk dungeon crawl?
Yes!
10:57 WOT - so PoE borrowed its UI from this?
No PoE came out before this game ...Black Geyeser is still in development
76
Have you played Divinity OS 2 yet? It’ll melt your fuckin face man.
Luuis I'm saaad...
the best part about new rpgs is that they are all waifu games
also i wouldnt ever call elex a crpg
You bring up goofy romance in Mass Effect but two things. Did you actually try all the romances? Because they are all decently unique. And 2nd your failed to mention they are completely optional. So does it even matter? There's very few games with actually good romance.
Elex video?!????????
U should try neverwinter night is great game
I'll be honest. I don't hate CRPG and I love some systems of it, but I really hate the isometric view and the turn-based gameplay of it... Those are my least favorite elements in any video games such as Diablo and original Fallout(isometric) and turn-based (Fallout, most of JRPGs...)
man can you shout me out - love you
Ok boomer
This "nostalgia blind" argument is bullshit! I have played Avernum and the Ultima series in 2014 and i still like it, Ultima 5 can kick new RPGs ass easily! Ultima started the NPC schedule thing, Bethesda didn't invented it, and Gothic 1 and 2 continued the greatness!
If a console player unfamiliar with the genre starts playing Elex, he will never again try a CRPG in his life. What an awful game.
I like ELEX so far but to each his own ... I just with Piranha bytes would optimize their games better but ppl gotta try more than one game in a genre out ..for example I didn't like the first racing game I played ..or the second but Need for Speed Carbon got me into those games
Lol dating sim rpgs