The possibilities you have opened up for me and others with this test/experiment are immense. Good work and I knew there was a good reason to being subscribed to your channel!
Living near the very cheesy Myrtle Beach, with all the helicopters and airplane banners flying by, this was my first thought as well. Scale this up 100X, maybe add solar (for the morning sun) and hover above the most crowded sections of beach for about 5 minutes at a time.
VERY entertaining Chris. Love the "plane" mode where the elevons flap like an ornithopter while the stabilser tries to do its thing. Keep up the good work!
Looks really promising. Rigging the servo mounts up to pivot around the front spar and controlling them by the same elevon servos would give much better yaw authority in the hover. But of course it would add weight and would probably be a hindrance when flying in plane mode. Probably easier just to make the elevons take up a bigger percentage of the total wing area if you ever make a mark 2. Larger diameter lower pitch props would probably help in the hover - it would reduce top speed in plane mode but it looks plenty fast enough already.
What a fantastic progression of bi-copter VTOL experiments. Had not realized this was a custom Arduino control gyro stabilization until near the end of the video. After watching both round 1 and 2, am left wondering if motor placement closer to CoG would helped with stabilization, as thrust would be closer to controls and moment of inertia would be reduced. I might have to try similar experiment, once I learn to how to configure Ardupilot. Guessing you never tried flying the Foamboard VTOL using Ardupilot as that would have been too easy? Did find your ducted fan Ardupilot tailsitter experiments. That build process was interesting, but flight performance was not so great. The poor wind performance likely due to round objects having higher drag coefficient than flat objects (when perpendicular to the wind).
Hi@@iforce2d , what would you recommend as a flight controller for someone starting out? I've built regular rc planes, and would like to be able to put some code of mine into it
I just discovered your channel the other day and though you were Australian then noticed a slight accent so thought you must be from either Perth, Tassie or Canberra mabey. It bothered me for a while because I knew I'd heard a very similar voice somewhere before, then it hit me - Bret from Flight of the Conchords! Gotta be a Kiwi ;-)
7 років тому
correct name for this video: 3d master extraordinaire flies flappy plank thing :) Those winglets really make it quite stable plane. You only have to do something about flutter, this thing has potential.
Hi Chris, Sorry for my lack of understanding and probably out of context question. In VTOL, especially tilt-rotor quadplane, do you think the two front motors should exactly match the two rear motors in terms of KV, size, propellers diameter and pitch?
Not necessarily, but it does make things a whole lot easier. I think you'd have enough on your plate trying to get a tilt-rotor quadplane running without having to worry about different motor specs as well.
Really looks promising! I know very little about this stuff, but I would try one flight with the battery on the opposite side just to see what happens. Makes me respect real plane test pilots more! LOL
It's possible that your gradual yaw drift might be because of a power differential in your motors, which I am sure you suspect. You might be able to get a pulse off of one of the motor leads to estimate RPM as additional input for a PID loop?
Nice experiment. Very interesting. I'm wondering if it would be more stable as a stretch quadcopter holding the carbon tube? The programming would be easier for the VTOL then. No yaw/roll confusion, or dependence on the elevons. You just have to compensate for the massive sail. Should work just as well in fixed wing mode as well.
Is your programming the same in plane and bicopter mode? Whats changing besides switching roll and yaw axis? May be you should give much more rates to elevons on bicopter mode. Also, do you have blackbox logging on your FC? It could give some clues to yaw problems. Awesome project, keep it up!
Currently the only difference between the two modes is that yaw and roll channels are swapped, and yaw (uhh... roll?) is reversed. Yes, looks like I will need to make some more changes too, gains, rates etc. It's just an arduino, no blackbox.
Do you have the yaw set to switch from left to right to right to left based on gyro? Like the DJI's do so you can fly it no matter if it face the other way round.
Just thinking... dropped toast always lands "butter side down"... one theory is that the butter increases the weight on that side. If you moved the battery to the other side of the foamboard, maybe it would be more inclined to land "electronics side up"?
it's Great man!!, you do very nice works, i saw your CNC project and your electrical bick too, some programming as well, just i wander (if i can ask) What do you do for a living ?
While it is in bicopter mode, I assume roll is controlled by differential motor speeds. While this is happening, a yaw component is also being introduced. The only ways I can think of to avoid this involve controlling roll by some other means, such as: (1) Contra-rotating co-axial props... too complex and heavy. (2) One front mounted motor (tractor) in line with a rear mounted motor (pusher). Check out ua-cam.com/video/XxyqklMx96I/v-deo.html ...you would not have propwash over the control surfaces. (He uses vectored thrust... more weight and complexity.) (3) Have rudders in the propwash as well as the elevons. OR... none of the above, it's bloody great fun as it is! :o)
The props are going in opposite directions. I think it's some interaction betwen the yaw induced by the motors, and the yaw induced by the elevons, that is not well accounted for in the program.
That's what I was thinking, it's the torque of the motors being off. I would calibrate the the ESCs through the flight controller before replacing parts.
Props were 5 inch, although I think a little larger and a little slower spinning might have been better. The electronics is a multiwii board that's not available any more, but it's basically just an arduino pro-mini and MPU6050
The 'firmware' is explained in the video linked to in the description, with some minor changes as explained in this video. The board is made for multiwii, it's basically an arduino pro mini with an MPU6050 gyro/accelerometer onboard, with convenient servo-plug style pin layout. You could do exactly the same with a pro mini and MPU6050 breakout board (as I did in the video linked to in the description) but the wiring will get messier.
It's roll man roll. Wings roll, not yaw, The tail (vertical stabilizer, or differential motors) cause yaw. Other than that it's a great video and I really enjoyed it.
In level flight the yaw axis is up and down (but has nothing to do with gravity). the axis are just points of rotation drawn along lines that pass through the Center of Rotation/Gravity) and they move as the plane moves. So when you were holding the "plane" by the tail with its nose sticking straight up and waggling the wings, it was rolling along a line/axis from nose to tail. Yaw axis would have been a line going from top of plane through to belly and the pitch axis would be along your carbon spar ignoring that it didn't go through the center of gravity. A quad is built differently but still has the same three axis' of control. It's all academic really, you got it figured out in the end and made it fly. What will really mess you up is trying to explain by which lift model a flat piece of foam like that will fly. :)
LegendLength I don't think there is an issue. We are all just arm chair quarterbacks yaking about it. I fly all kinds of real world and RC/FPV planes and quads, but I doubt I could build that vtol and make it work. Why don't you give it a try and see if you can get it to fly. I'm buried in Ritewing mini drak build, HC-44 race wing build, rebuilding a mini talon and just got my new HK Bush Mule in to build. Not to mention a new Arm Cammelion 5". Just stirring the pot once in a while. Lol
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
It's amazing to watch such an unwieldly plane be able to vtol and still fly rather well. Please keep up the good work.
The possibilities you have opened up for me and others with this test/experiment are immense. Good work and I knew there was a good reason to being subscribed to your channel!
Without the winglets, it looked like a giant flying razor blade , really cool creation, great narration too, love your experimental crafts.
Flying sandwich board, could be good for retail advertising 🤔 bloody good job getting it to fly.
Living near the very cheesy Myrtle Beach, with all the helicopters and airplane banners flying by, this was my first thought as well. Scale this up 100X, maybe add solar (for the morning sun) and hover above the most crowded sections of beach for about 5 minutes at a time.
VERY entertaining Chris. Love the "plane" mode where the elevons flap like an ornithopter while the stabilser tries to do its thing.
Keep up the good work!
Thought my audio was broken first and turned it up alot, then you suddenly shouted at me :D
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NO I JUST GOT LAZY AND DIDN'T MAKE ANY INTRO.
I don't think I have ever held my breath for so long... Brilliant! :o)
got me smiling with you many times! Very interesting and entertaining, thanks for sharing.
Looks really promising. Rigging the servo mounts up to pivot around the front spar and controlling them by the same elevon servos would give much better yaw authority in the hover. But of course it would add weight and would probably be a hindrance when flying in plane mode. Probably easier just to make the elevons take up a bigger percentage of the total wing area if you ever make a mark 2. Larger diameter lower pitch props would probably help in the hover - it would reduce top speed in plane mode but it looks plenty fast enough already.
I Love your optimism.
That was very interesting developement in one day... it was fun to see !!!
Thanks for giving me something sooo kool to watch!!!
very interesting project love it :D
keep up the great work looking forward to seeing more vtol test flights :D
fascinating video, I look forward to the next segments.
What a fantastic progression of bi-copter VTOL experiments. Had not realized this was a custom Arduino control gyro stabilization until near the end of the video.
After watching both round 1 and 2, am left wondering if motor placement closer to CoG would helped with stabilization, as thrust would be closer to controls and moment of inertia would be reduced. I might have to try similar experiment, once I learn to how to configure Ardupilot.
Guessing you never tried flying the Foamboard VTOL using Ardupilot as that would have been too easy?
Did find your ducted fan Ardupilot tailsitter experiments. That build process was interesting, but flight performance was not so great. The poor wind performance likely due to round objects having higher drag coefficient than flat objects (when perpendicular to the wind).
At the time of this video I didn't know anything about Ardupilot. Yes, the ducted fan tail-sitter was horribly inefficient.
Hi@@iforce2d , what would you recommend as a flight controller for someone starting out? I've built regular rc planes, and would like to be able to put some code of mine into it
I just discovered your channel the other day and though you were Australian then noticed a slight accent so thought you must be from either Perth, Tassie or Canberra mabey. It bothered me for a while because I knew I'd heard a very similar voice somewhere before, then it hit me - Bret from Flight of the Conchords! Gotta be a Kiwi ;-)
correct name for this video: 3d master extraordinaire flies flappy plank thing :) Those winglets really make it quite stable plane. You only have to do something about flutter, this thing has potential.
Got a plane very similar to this. Works good. Getting the cg right was hard and it doesn't like wind very much.
It looks like a space invader.
Thirty more of those and a paintball gun and you'll have a decent game of space invaders.
Hi Chris,
Sorry for my lack of understanding and probably out of context question. In VTOL, especially tilt-rotor quadplane, do you think the two front motors should exactly match the two rear motors in terms of KV, size, propellers diameter and pitch?
Not necessarily, but it does make things a whole lot easier. I think you'd have enough on your plate trying to get a tilt-rotor quadplane running without having to worry about different motor specs as well.
Fantastic going there Chris!
Really looks promising! I know very little about this stuff, but I would try one flight with the battery on the opposite side just to see what happens. Makes me respect real plane test pilots more! LOL
It's possible that your gradual yaw drift might be because of a power differential in your motors, which I am sure you suspect. You might be able to get a pulse off of one of the motor leads to estimate RPM as additional input for a PID loop?
That is Awesome!! Nice.
Nice experiment. Very interesting. I'm wondering if it would be more stable as a stretch quadcopter holding the carbon tube? The programming would be easier for the VTOL then. No yaw/roll confusion, or dependence on the elevons. You just have to compensate for the massive sail. Should work just as well in fixed wing mode as well.
Yes that would make the VTOL part of it a breeze. A little too easy I think :)
Is your programming the same in plane and bicopter mode? Whats changing besides switching roll and yaw axis? May be you should give much more rates to elevons on bicopter mode. Also, do you have blackbox logging on your FC? It could give some clues to yaw problems. Awesome project, keep it up!
Currently the only difference between the two modes is that yaw and roll channels are swapped, and yaw (uhh... roll?) is reversed. Yes, looks like I will need to make some more changes too, gains, rates etc. It's just an arduino, no blackbox.
Cool, loved the "splashdown". I'm wondering what a symmetrical airfoil, instead of the flat board, would do for the airplane mode?
WOW what a fun flies like the plane flap flap. Reality is the idea
Do you have the yaw set to switch from left to right to right to left based on gyro? Like the DJI's do so you can fly it no matter if it face the other way round.
Well done dude!
Did you just giggle at the end?? Rofl
Yeah, I was thinking, I said goodbye three times now, is it actually gonna be the end of the video or not...
very good!!! you need a vertical tail, if you use a vertical tail you will see that fly very well...
i see in the end that you put the vertical tail!!!lol :)
What are you using for the servo control rods?
Just thinking... dropped toast always lands "butter side down"... one theory is that the butter increases the weight on that side. If you moved the battery to the other side of the foamboard, maybe it would be more inclined to land "electronics side up"?
Hey Man,
Which controller are you using??
Can you please send me a list of all the components you used ASAP??
Thanks...
it's Great man!!, you do very nice works, i saw your CNC project and your electrical bick too, some programming as well, just i wander (if i can ask) What do you do for a living ?
I develop software.
iforce2d thank you for fast answer, is there a videos about that?
Hi! Do you remember the type of the escs? I got an old drone with the same escs but my friend does not rememer the type. Thx!
The brand was 'KingKong' but I don't remember much else about them. They were marked as being 4S capable but only really worked well on 3S.
@@iforce2d Thx! Do you remember if it was blheli by default?
I think it was, but it was quite a while ago so my memory is not very fresh
@@iforce2d thx! And as P360 says: Happy flying!
looks great.......
1:40 sounds like a dragster idling
lifesaver
Funny, I was just thinking about building one of these.
So funny! 👍🏻👏🏻
Piece of square foam board looks weird when its flying like a plane 😂😂
Pretty wild.. nice work
Hey may I suggest pushing the cg back just a bit , I don't know I'm only 11
That's amazing!!
While it is in bicopter mode, I assume roll is controlled by differential motor speeds. While this is happening, a yaw component is also being introduced. The only ways I can think of to avoid this involve controlling roll by some other means, such as:
(1) Contra-rotating co-axial props... too complex and heavy.
(2) One front mounted motor (tractor) in line with a rear mounted motor (pusher). Check out ua-cam.com/video/XxyqklMx96I/v-deo.html ...you would not have propwash over the control surfaces. (He uses vectored thrust... more weight and complexity.)
(3) Have rudders in the propwash as well as the elevons.
OR... none of the above, it's bloody great fun as it is! :o)
When it hovers it's actually a bicopter though, isn't it?
True, I'm just in the habit of saying quad/quadcopter so often.
Torque spin? Counter rotating props?
The props are going in opposite directions. I think it's some interaction betwen the yaw induced by the motors, and the yaw induced by the elevons, that is not well accounted for in the program.
Yes, I can scale down the value read from the gyro using the dials on the radio.
very cool
looks to me like one esc/motor is dying, the other compensates and causes yaw
That's what I was thinking, it's the torque of the motors being off. I would calibrate the the ESCs through the flight controller before replacing parts.
What FC/Firmware?
Link is in description
could you please share the electronics used and the prop size?
Props were 5 inch, although I think a little larger and a little slower spinning might have been better. The electronics is a multiwii board that's not available any more, but it's basically just an arduino pro-mini and MPU6050
@@iforce2d can this be achieved with the Old KK2 board running sone form of Openaero?
Fun time
VTOL stablizer + mixer can be found here www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=628992
very exciting! thanks
Awesome!
will this work with the kk2 board?
No idea, does it have a bicopter mixing? This is a regular arduino.
iforce2 i See a FC on this plane where is the arduino ?
Ok i found it can you explain more the software and firmware you are using? BF or CF?
it is a multiwii board
The 'firmware' is explained in the video linked to in the description, with some minor changes as explained in this video. The board is made for multiwii, it's basically an arduino pro mini with an MPU6050 gyro/accelerometer onboard, with convenient servo-plug style pin layout. You could do exactly the same with a pro mini and MPU6050 breakout board (as I did in the video linked to in the description) but the wiring will get messier.
:D very entertaining!
No real control of that great THING right bettween two lots of power lines. Not really promoting being sensible for other users.
It's roll man roll. Wings roll, not yaw, The tail (vertical stabilizer, or differential motors) cause yaw. Other than that it's a great video and I really enjoyed it.
I'm calling it yaw referring to rotation about the vertical (gravity/up-down) axis, and because I'm using the yaw stick to control it.
In level flight the yaw axis is up and down (but has nothing to do with gravity). the axis are just points of rotation drawn along lines that pass through the Center of Rotation/Gravity) and they move as the plane moves. So when you were holding the "plane" by the tail with its nose sticking straight up and waggling the wings, it was rolling along a line/axis from nose to tail. Yaw axis would have been a line going from top of plane through to belly and the pitch axis would be along your carbon spar ignoring that it didn't go through the center of gravity. A quad is built differently but still has the same three axis' of control. It's all academic really, you got it figured out in the end and made it fly. What will really mess you up is trying to explain by which lift model a flat piece of foam like that will fly. :)
LegendLength I don't think there is an issue. We are all just arm chair quarterbacks yaking about it. I fly all kinds of real world and RC/FPV planes and quads, but I doubt I could build that vtol and make it work. Why don't you give it a try and see if you can get it to fly. I'm buried in Ritewing mini drak build, HC-44 race wing build, rebuilding a mini talon and just got my new HK Bush Mule in to build. Not to mention a new Arm Cammelion 5". Just stirring the pot once in a while. Lol