With the setup you have you're going to get a lot of roll/yaw coupling when in hover mode. As the motors change power differentially, the sum of their torque vectors will also change (that's how multirotors create yaw). I'm picking that there is a point where the corrective inputs cancel out and you no longer have positive stability. Also, if you want to improve the level of control when descending vertically then you'll need smaller control surfaces and smaller -- higher-pitched props -- so that the propwash over the elevons remains faster/stronger than the airflow through which they're passing. With a larger, lower-pitch prop in descent, the rising airflow (relative to the wing) will effectively counteract the propwash to produce an area of stagnation around the elevons and thus you have zero control. It's great fun this cut-and-try aerodynamics eh?
Aha! I am reviewing these videos in the light of having a crack at this again and you have explained why the Wingra has the props it does! All data is out there if you look, generally from Bruce. What about the relationship of distance from the prop to the control surface? I notice others use symmetrical aerofoils and actually have a very slight angle, less than 5 degrees backwards when sat on the skids on the ground. I also have a feeling a bit of mass if actually needed to smooth things out. But it's all guesswork.
Chris, you need to do some fixed-wing 3D and you'll find that you soon map the roll/yaw change into your brain. Hovering a fixed wing is easy, once you get the hang of it and then you wouldn't need to have a switch because your muscle-memory would automatically account for the transition.
I am beginner but I found that type of props makes a lot of difference in thrust created. I think i have those like yours and they perform lthe worst. Great channel keep the good work. Very inspiring and lot of info for Open Source tool chain. Thanks a bunch!
Wow, I'm impressed ... I wish I could build such a thing... It looks like a lot of fun... and how well the part flies... Have you mentioned how much you've invested in it? Can it be that the weight on one side influences the flight characteristics during landing? Perhaps the battery on the other side attach... Just such a thought, I see so a self-construction for the first time... and I want something like that... : D
roll more to one side because of the P factor... the torque of the motors. If possible have one motor turn in the opposite direction, that way the torque will equalize
I think the chord length of the wing is too long to get control from the props efficiently, which is why you have trouble descending. If your chord length was shorter, the props would have more authority over the air. In essence, your control surfaces are more susceptible to air pressure from the static air than the prop wash. You may need to: 1. Decrease Chord Length 2. Add differential torque to the (helicopter) yaw mix 3. Add rudder control to help compensate for the adverse roll (helicopter) from mixing in torque to the yaw Sounds really complex... better you than me ;-)
I have something similar, full length tapering tip plates, in between them, in the middle a rudder and fin. It is quite stable (slight dutch roll) I think the funneling of the air between plates and rudder/fin helps. It hovers or harriers OK . With continuous throttle attention. 1450 tgy and 8x4 prop.
Yes, one motor ,with 60 x 20 hard foam block on the underside to strengthen and velcro things on. spinning it is something to behold. The 3 nutballs I have come recommended and in the future a snowball. Watch "Nutball goes wild " etc.
Hi it would help to try to mount weight quite far down to improve the landing. Is really very interesting and would like to build it. Have unfortunately not so much space to fly and test. Thanks for the videos
What if you cut down the size of your ailerons? When your trying to land your basically trying to fly backwards and and between vertical ring state and ground effects those huge ailerons are trying to work in reverse. As a plane it handles so well I bet you'd eliminate that flutter also. I'm not an engineer or any kind of builder but one advantage of being older then dirt is I've gotten a bit of common sense. If it doesn't work I'll send ya a buck for another piece of foamboard. LOL One other thing, have you tried programming the motors using differential thrust? *Dance the Skies*
Hi sir really amazing build. I built a similar one too. But m have a problem. When i hover in Qstabilize mode, when i pitch forwad into the wind it changes to forward flight then hover again its like it does not like too much pitch. I m not sure why. M using a radiolink minipix. Flightmodes m using is qstabilize, fbwa and qrtl. Can you please help.
Move the motors out to the edge and maybe bigger pros, the longer the moment arm should give it some stability, make the pros turn inwards see if that makes any difference
My original plan was to have the motors right out on the edge, but I figured it would be better to get all possible airflow over the control surfaces so I put them directly ahead of the elevons. It also mean much fewer broken props :)
my 2 cents here are, your vehicle is under powered as copter, and when you pitch hard the elevons may enter a stall and give different values of lift, that may throw you off, I may be completely off the mark.
Yes I'm thinking that too. If I try this again I will go with at least 1806 motors (using 1804 now) that will let me comfortably try 3-blade or 6-inch props.
I am just having a stab in the dark but to me it looks like in heli mode does the flight controllers configuration have the boards orientation set correctly which I am guessing the pitch orientation is 90 degrees so it thinks the boards is flat.
It's only using a gyro, no accelerometer so it is not aware of orientation or gravity up/down. I have a switch that swaps yaw and roll input, to allow me to use the familiar stick movements in each mode (heli/plane). I think the main problem is that doing a roll (talking about heli mode here) will make one motor spin faster than the other, which also causes some yaw, and the flight control program does not account for that properly.
Hi iforce2d. Why not buy large blanket thing and land it on that to prevent on watery grass. (sorry for english i hope u get my point) Btw this looks very fun. Def my favourite design of a plane ive seen, really interesting with the landling/launching
I hated that song back in the day,was all Stock, Aitken & Waterman in the charts in the mid 80's. Then preferred the glamrock .,like poison and Van Halen or whitesnake or Scorpions......
Stoned Avocado Have you check out iforce's link in the video description? If you have then you should be able to see why I say it is interesting. If not have a click.
Yes zoq2, there is a silly physics related saying "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?" so I chose my user name on the box2d forums as irresistible force (because it sounds cooler than immovable object right?). A few years later I signed up for UA-cam to put up some videos about box2d things I made and of course I couldn't get the name irresistible force or iforce, but the 2d suffix was available.
just bought the plane using the link in the description, can't wait for it to arrive! :)
With the setup you have you're going to get a lot of roll/yaw coupling when in hover mode. As the motors change power differentially, the sum of their torque vectors will also change (that's how multirotors create yaw). I'm picking that there is a point where the corrective inputs cancel out and you no longer have positive stability. Also, if you want to improve the level of control when descending vertically then you'll need smaller control surfaces and smaller -- higher-pitched props -- so that the propwash over the elevons remains faster/stronger than the airflow through which they're passing. With a larger, lower-pitch prop in descent, the rising airflow (relative to the wing) will effectively counteract the propwash to produce an area of stagnation around the elevons and thus you have zero control. It's great fun this cut-and-try aerodynamics eh?
Aha! I am reviewing these videos in the light of having a crack at this again and you have explained why the Wingra has the props it does! All data is out there if you look, generally from Bruce. What about the relationship of distance from the prop to the control surface? I notice others use symmetrical aerofoils and actually have a very slight angle, less than 5 degrees backwards when sat on the skids on the ground. I also have a feeling a bit of mass if actually needed to smooth things out. But it's all guesswork.
Chris, you need to do some fixed-wing 3D and you'll find that you soon map the roll/yaw change into your brain. Hovering a fixed wing is easy, once you get the hang of it and then you wouldn't need to have a switch because your muscle-memory would automatically account for the transition.
I am beginner but I found that type of props makes a lot of difference in thrust created. I think i have those like yours and they perform lthe worst. Great channel keep the good work. Very inspiring and lot of info for Open Source tool chain. Thanks a bunch!
man that's looks real fun . I hope you will make a video on what to do in the arduino or how to make vtol/plane like this.
Amazing stuff.
Wow, I'm impressed ... I wish I could build such a thing... It looks like a lot of fun... and how well the part flies... Have you mentioned how much you've invested in it? Can it be that the weight on one side influences the flight characteristics during landing? Perhaps the battery on the other side attach... Just such a thought, I see so a self-construction for the first time... and I want something like that... : D
roll more to one side because of the P factor... the torque of the motors.
If possible have one motor turn in the opposite direction, that way the torque will equalize
You turkey! lol Got me.
put 4 sticks on the wings to get a bigger gab between the plain and the ground when starting from the ground
maybe that will help with starting
I think the chord length of the wing is too long to get control from the props efficiently, which is why you have trouble descending. If your chord length was shorter, the props would have more authority over the air. In essence, your control surfaces are more susceptible to air pressure from the static air than the prop wash.
You may need to:
1. Decrease Chord Length
2. Add differential torque to the (helicopter) yaw mix
3. Add rudder control to help compensate for the adverse roll (helicopter) from mixing in torque to the yaw
Sounds really complex... better you than me ;-)
I have something similar, full length tapering tip plates, in between them, in the middle a rudder and fin. It is quite stable (slight dutch roll) I think the funneling of the air between plates and rudder/fin helps. It hovers or harriers OK . With continuous throttle attention. 1450 tgy and 8x4 prop.
It's a lot of fun right? You have just the one motor?
Yes, one motor ,with 60 x 20 hard foam block on the underside to strengthen and velcro things on. spinning it is something to behold. The 3 nutballs I have come recommended and in the future a snowball. Watch "Nutball goes wild " etc.
Hi it would help to try to mount weight quite far down to improve the landing. Is really very interesting and would like to build it. Have unfortunately not so much space to fly and test. Thanks for the videos
What if you cut down the size of your ailerons? When your trying to land your basically trying to fly backwards and and between vertical ring state and ground effects those huge ailerons are trying to work in reverse. As a plane it handles so well I bet you'd eliminate that flutter also.
I'm not an engineer or any kind of builder but one advantage of being older then dirt is I've gotten a bit of common sense. If it doesn't work I'll send ya a buck for another piece of foamboard. LOL
One other thing, have you tried programming the motors using differential thrust?
*Dance the Skies*
Hi sir really amazing build. I built a similar one too. But m have a problem. When i hover in Qstabilize mode, when i pitch forwad into the wind it changes to forward flight then hover again its like it does not like too much pitch. I m not sure why. M using a radiolink minipix. Flightmodes m using is qstabilize, fbwa and qrtl. Can you please help.
Drop the vtol idea and perfect it for plane mode ? it looks fun already.
Move the motors out to the edge and maybe bigger pros, the longer the moment arm
should give it some stability, make the pros turn inwards see if that makes any difference
My original plan was to have the motors right out on the edge, but I figured it would be better to get all possible airflow over the control surfaces so I put them directly ahead of the elevons. It also mean much fewer broken props :)
when the "plane" is coming backwards down, the controls needs to be reversed bevause air is mowing frome rear end to front end.
maybe some kind of ground effect at landing and take off?
is the ground still marshy? I love how you work through the problems, I'm sure you'll be able to go over this problem as well
We had a day without rain (almost) so it has improved a little. Rain is always just around the corner though :)
you are in GB I think, or am I wrong
my 2 cents here are, your vehicle is under powered as copter, and when you pitch hard the elevons may enter a stall and give different values of lift, that may throw you off, I may be completely off the mark.
Yes I'm thinking that too. If I try this again I will go with at least 1806 motors (using 1804 now) that will let me comfortably try 3-blade or 6-inch props.
Can you make a video of how to make a "plane" like this pleasse
Would this design benefit from a few vortex generators?
Can anyone say what is the advantage of this drone?
Yes, but will it slope?
I am just having a stab in the dark but to me it looks like in heli mode does the flight controllers configuration have the boards orientation set correctly which I am guessing the pitch orientation is 90 degrees so it thinks the boards is flat.
It's only using a gyro, no accelerometer so it is not aware of orientation or gravity up/down. I have a switch that swaps yaw and roll input, to allow me to use the familiar stick movements in each mode (heli/plane).
I think the main problem is that doing a roll (talking about heli mode here) will make one motor spin faster than the other, which also causes some yaw, and the flight control program does not account for that properly.
I like it.
Hi iforce2d. Why not buy large blanket thing and land it on that to prevent on watery grass. (sorry for english i hope u get my point)
Btw this looks very fun. Def my favourite design of a plane ive seen, really interesting with the landling/launching
Yeah I have considered making a big net to land things in. They need to be controllable first though :D
Cool 😎
the Purchase link go to a song : Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up
lorenzo lol I bet you are fun at parties.
VTOCL (Vertical Take-Off, Crash Landing) type of vehicle. ((:
Make Unicopter ! Plz
F.ck I got Rickrolled! :D I didn`t know it is still a thing!
Oh no, *Never gonna give you up* is stuck in my head now. Really need a warning on those links. ☺
I hated that song back in the day,was all Stock, Aitken & Waterman in the charts in the mid 80's.
Then preferred the glamrock .,like poison and Van Halen or whitesnake or Scorpions......
Mmmm dry grass
affiliate links.... not you too... lol
I clicked and well it is interesting. I just wanted to see how you affiliate foam board.
got me too
whats the problem with it lol. its win win mostly right?
Freak of Speed i prefer affilate links. dont understand your problem.
Stoned Avocado
Have you check out iforce's link in the video description? If you have then you should be able to see why I say it is interesting. If not have a click.
#RickRolled
why iforce2d as a username?
what?
Im pretty sure his channel started out showcasing the box2d physics library
Yes zoq2, there is a silly physics related saying "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?" so I chose my user name on the box2d forums as irresistible force (because it sounds cooler than immovable object right?). A few years later I signed up for UA-cam to put up some videos about box2d things I made and of course I couldn't get the name irresistible force or iforce, but the 2d suffix was available.
oh...........that's why. btw your vids deserve more views.