This machine came out right after I placed an order for a Londinium R24. Big difference between the 2 is on the Profitec, you can adjust temperature. While the Londinium you can adjust pre-infusion pressure. Your video does outline another point, I feel the Profitec looks better built. You also get the support of a much larger company in Profitec, warranty is important for something like a coffee machine, post sale support should also be clearly on the lists of requirements for buying a coffee machine. Thank you for the review.
Hi Viktor, You are welcome for the review. Thanks for sharing your thoughts comparing the R24 to the Pro 800. Profitec is known for excellent build quality. Marc
Hi Mark & co at WLL, I appreciate you’re a USA based company and using Fahrenheit is user friendly for your intended customer base, however an additional Centigrade reading during the Scase test etc would help the rest of us when we’re researching our next machine. After all it would mean more views etc and possibly subscriptions. Thanks from the U.K. 👍
Hi P, Thanks for the comment - it's one I get a lot from viewers outside the US! In most videos I do include Celsius and metric measurements alongside. It's weird here in the US! I and everyone I know does coffee weights in grams and I never provide those in the ounces used for weighing most things here. When mentioning liquid volume capacities of boilers, reservoirs, etc I almost always use liters. To be honest I have mixed feelings about C vs. F. Fahrenheit has about 2x the resolution of Celsius unless you get into tenths of degrees which systems on the vast majority espresso machines don't do. I did mention these temps in the video: Milk's sweet spot 140F = 60C Boiler temp setting for Pro 800 248F = 120C Marc
I'm happy owner of Profitec E61. Honestly Profitec/ECM have the best quality materials, attention to details and beauty. I evaluated for months others E61 machines but once you see Profitec/ECM you understand this brand is in another level.
Hi Fernando, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Profitec ECM. I agree they do stand out compared to other machines. One example I've used in the past is comparing the internal drip tray seams. Always well finished on Profitec/ECM machines while others have visible spot welds with burn marks. If they go to the trouble of finishing less visible areas you know they're paying attention elsewhere. Another example: Profitec/ECM was one of the first to use stainless steel mushroom valves in their E61 group machines. Other where using chrome plated mushrooms. Scaling on those would loosen the chrome plating and you might find sparkly metal flakes on top of your coffee puck. They also use a custom OPV in their machines which is serviceable. Marc
I used an Elektra Micro Casa a Leva (spring piston) for years and I always noted how the espresso was sweeter than from my Hx Vetrano. This P 800 is a beauty.
Hi Marc and thank you as always - As feedback, the Profitec machines (also me personally) would enjoy a thermometer or light signal just to know exactly when the machine is ready to brew at specified temperatures- As well as an internal cross-water solenoid type of mechanism to initially mix heat exchanger with brew water so it reduces time in half it takes to be fully ready.
The Pro 800 does not have a heat exchanger. It has a single large boiler containing a dip tube. When the lever is pulled down, the spring is compressed which allows water (under pressure from the boiler) to flow into the brew group chamber below the spring. As the water moves through the dip tube and into the chamber it loses heat and reaches suitable brewing temperature.
Hi rumar4u, As @Driver9 comments (thanks, nailed it!) there is no heat exchanger in the Pro 800. I've seen some use a stick on thermometer strip on the group head. There's the PID display behind the drip tray which shows current boiler temp. Of course the boiler will reach set temperature long before the group head temperature has stabilized. Marc
The only thing I don't like is the need to "pull the cup" at the end of the shot. I'd like it more if it had a lever actuated solenoid valve to end the shot by diverting flow from the group head to the drip tray. Maybe it would detract from the "purist's" enjoyment of the machine but I can't help but feel that wiping down the side of cups and scales after every shot would fast become an issue. I understand why you rested the cup on the edge of the scales in an attempt to avoid mess, but that doesn't appeal to me as a solution either. The scales work best with the cup centred. There's no denying its beauty, appeal and novelty though. Great review as always Marc
Hi Space, Thanks for the comment and sharing your thoughts. I think you're right in that it may detract from the purist aspect. And, that would be a major redesign of the group to add that function! Centering cup on scales makes sense, but I've never had issue with the Acaia scales with cup position. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I suppose this machine's configuration does eliminate the need to backflush so swings and roundabouts I suppose. Beautiful thing all the same.
I've owned 3 espresso machines including the 800 here and a Linea Mini. The 800 is by far the cleanest machine I've used. Swapping a cup to catch the remaining flow is very easy. Shots from a naked portafilter almost never spray the front of the machine due to the lever's forgiving pressure profile. Even more - no flushing the group after shots nor do you backflush the group weekly like you would a pump-driven machine. Nearly maintenance free. I could go on.
Hey Whole latte love, great to see a lever machine reviewed again. I love lever machines, this 800 looks great as well and the 2022 updates or minor indeed (because it already was a damn good machine). Doubted between this Profitec 800 and some others with a price tag ranging from €2500-4000 but eventually went for a Bezzera Strega for 2/3 or 1/2 the price. Looking at the result/vs $ you get in your cup, for me, there is no way back to a pump driven machine. especially in this price category, it completely outperforms the pump machine for home users, and in addition it's way more simple tech and will run forever.
Hi m, Thanks for the comment sharing your thoughts on lever machines! Your feelings mirror mine and those of the passionate lever owners I referenced in the video. Marc
Sorry for that Damon, I mean in the EU. In EU the P 800 is sold for +/- €2650, the Strega TOP for +/- €1600-1750 (depends which version (there is a SE (spec. edit.) version in NL for (1750 but the basic TOP starts at 1599). The no-pump version is available from around €1400 till €1550.
@@damonm3 Hi, Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MjE1Mjk2OTY2NjYxNCwxNTQ1OTk5MzE5MDk5 Strega is a fine machine as well. What you might be missing... Pro 800 uses a dipper tube boiler, Stega uses HX boiler. Pro 800 comes with bottomless portafilter and triple shot basket Strega does not. Purchased at Whole Latte Love Pro 800 has 3 year warranty. Strega warranty is 1 year. Pro 800 boiler is nearly double the size of Strega's. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Strega can do pre-infusion at different pressure and also has heated group head that some people may want. In Australia Strega is U$2695 while Pro 800 is U$ 3660 (both tax included) - Pro 800 is over priced here.
Thanks for the video. It’s an enthusiast machine. I run the PRO 600 and I never want to miss that almost 2 Bar Steam Power… Eventhough I have to agree that lever machine Espresso I drink in Italy is a class of its own.
Hey, Marc! How are you? I have a weird question, but here it goes: Is the counter-weight inside removable? Also, how much does it weight? I will have to decrease the machine's weight for a flight... Thanks for beeing so attentive with everyone!
Hey GMC, I'm well - how are you? Yes, the counterweight is removable. You can see the head of the retaining bolt at this point in the video: ua-cam.com/video/TmBpmVN6cUM/v-deo.html Not certain on exact weight but guessing it's 10-15lbs, 5-7kg Hope that helps! Marc
Love it but they should make a direct lever version with a brew pressure gauge. I get the appeal of being able to brew and steam at the same time and the consistency of the spring pressure but I would love a machine with the versatility of a direct lever with the ability to be plumbed in while also having the temperature stability of the 800.
Hi Marc! Great review! I'm still loving my Profitec Pro 500 PID. But, I can see that this will be the upgrade machine, when I have infants around in the near future! Just have to convince my wife.... 😂
Marc, great review! I am interested in getting the 800 and wonder if you have a recommended grinder (specific model or just a type) that pairs well with a lever machine. It sounds like these have a specific flavor profile, so perhaps some grinders will lend better to this? Bonus if it can dual-use for filter coffee.
Hi a, Thanks for the comment and question! It really depends on how far you want to go. If $$ no object we use the Ceado E37S as our reference grinder. Huge 83mm burrs, beautiful fluffy grind, consistent output of timed doses and extremely precise grind size adjustment. Grinders in the 50-64mm burr size work well look at options from Ceado E series. Those are all 64mm burr size. Differences are in programming ranging from totally manual like the E5 Pro to to timed presets on the E6P. Grind quality is the same from all those. Also look at Eureka grinders. They range in burr sizes from 50 - 65mm. They are more compact, perhaps a bit more contemporary in design. They do not have quite the fluffiness or perfect distribution of the Ceados but very good. Dual use typically means some compromise. Grinders with the precision required for espresso might require a lot of knob turning to go from fine to coarse and it can be tough on some to return precisely to your espresso setting. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi Marc! Thanks for for doing the review! I've seen this new Pro 800 2.0 in person side by side with other Profitec machines and to me, its absolutely stunning! The nanometer is larger, the stainless steel frame is thick stainless, the levers are the way to go, the wood accents are beautiful and the nostalgia look is priceless. I did notice the drip tray hole is placed farther back towards the machine than version 1.0 and wondered if it is placed too far back to match up with the collection cup. have you had the chance to set up the drain hose to see if everything lines up? Thanks!
Hi Shadow 2, Thanks for your comment. It is a stunning machine! You are correct on the drain hole lineup being a little further back than on the previous version - good catch! Just personally checked it out. Drain cup edge lines up right on the edge of the drain hole. It's too close for comfort! We took some pics and are forwarding to Profitec for comment/solution. One could do some in field modification with a bridge plate to move the cup back a bit to resolve but Profitec should provide a permanent solution. Marc
Awesome video. Just found out about these machines. I am little confused, regarding the draining and the usage. For draining, do you have to set up or connect directly to a plumbing line? And for usage, does the machine have to stay on? I believe I heard 40 minutes of pre-heat time or something. Please clarify, thanks!
Hey b, thanks for the comment and questions! You do not have to connect to a drain line. But, you can if desired. Drip tray is predrilled but has a plug if you choose not to connect to drain line. The machine does not have to stay on but it is 30-40 minutes for complete heat up. Many will use a smart plug so machine can be turned on/off on schedule or remotely. Marc
Which is better the Profitec 800 or the Bezerra Strega and why? I am really having fun pulling shots with my cheap Flair lever machine and want a powerful spring lever espresso machine. Also how compare to Londinium R24 and Vesuvius Evo Leva machines? Also how does the Profitec 800 rate against the Quickmill Achille and the Izzo Alex Leva? Would like to see you do a comparison of 2022 lever based high end machines like you did for dual boiler semi autos.
Hi RM, Well better is a bit subjective. Personally, I prefer the Pro 800. I appreciate when plumbed to water line the machine is silent - pump never comes on. Thanks for the video suggestion - I'll see what I can do but at the moment I do not have access to some of the machines you mention. Marc
Hi Mark, we bought out machine from you guys about 5 years ago. We Love it. However the pressure gauge has climbed up to the top of the green line at 14 bars. We cannot find anyway to adjust the pressure and get the needle back to 9 bars. Can you help us understand how we adjust that?
Hi kr, Thanks for your patronage and sharing the love. I'm assuming you do not have the Pro 800 featured in this video as it only has a boiler pressure gauge which maxes out at ~3bar. So you are talking about a brew pressure gauge on some other machine - right? If that's the case, does the gauge always read 14 bar? Even when the machine is off? If so, then the gauge may need replacement. If it goes to 14 bar only when brewing and returns to zero after then the OPV (vibration pump machine) or pump bypass (rotary pump) may need adjustment or again, the gauge could be defective. Best best is to shoot a quick video showing the problem and contact our tech support and share it with them so they can properly advise. Reach out to them here: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us Hope that helps! Marc
Hi MF, Thanks for the comment and question. The offset is typically ~48F but not constant depending on variables like ambient temp, airflow around the group and how long you allow the coffee to pre-infuse with the lever down. The group itself is much cooler than water in the boiler and absorbs heat from brew water before getting to the coffee. So cooler ambient temps, more airflow or a longer pre-infusion results in cooler brew temp (higher offset) relative to the boiler temp. Marc
Hey, Marc! How are you? I have a question about this machine. I know it takes about 40min to reach an appropiate temp. But I take 1 coffe at the morning... 1 in the afternoon... 1 at night... Do I need to shut down after each use and wait again before the next? Or there is some "sleep mode" for a faster use? Thank you!!!
Hi GMC, I'm well - just back from a short vaca! You do not need to shut down - you can leave on continuously. The machine does have an ECO mode which stops heating the boilers after a user set amount of time from last use ranging from 30 minutes to ten hours. But, the machine will not be ready faster after fully cooling in ECO mode. You could use a properly rated appliance timer or Wifi switch to turn the machine on/off on a schedule or remotely. Marc
Hi. Thx for the great video! One question about the vaccum relief valve. Wouldn't it be better to have a litte plastic cup around the valve where water drips could go in?
So I am struggling to pick between the pro 800 and the bezzera strega. Anyone able to help me understand why i should or should not consider spending a bit more for the Profitec model?
Hey O, here's a link to a side by side spec comparison of the Pro 800 and Strega: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NTkyNjcwNTIxMSwxNTQ1OTk5MzE5MDk5 I've used both machines and prefer the Pro 800. Its build quality is slightly better, from Whole Latte Love the warranty is 3 years on the Pro 800 and 1 year on the Strega. Pro 800 comes with a bottomless triple basket and if plumbed to waterline the pump in the Pro 800 never runs. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi LZ, Thanks for the comment. Lever machines usually have larger boilers with heavy connections to group head as it's the large boiler volume responsible for heating up the large metal group.
@@WholelattelovepageThanks for response! I understand the principle well. But there are people like me prefer some more compact machine. That's why Londinum is working on Vectis and Odyssey Argos. I'm looking forward to more options of this kind on the market in the future!
You said 248 degrees (F) is a good temp for brewing. That’s 120C. That is closer to steaming temp. Is this just for this machine? I’ve always been told 92 degrees C 197F is the best temp for medium roast.
That is the temperature of the water in the boiler (steaming temperature). In the Pro 800, the boiler water loses heat to the massive brass group head as it travels to the brew chamber between the compressed spring and the group head screen. The system is designed such that the heat loss brings the water temperature into the range suitable for brewing.
Hi z, Well the Pro 800 is a very hands on machine. It gets a lot of love from those who are looking for a more traditional hands on experience. Definitely more effort using a lever machine like the 800. Also takes longer to warmup. My perception is most 800 owners are focused more on straight espresso and do fewer milk drinks. Changing brewing variables like temperature and brew pressure on the 800 is an art. On the dual boiler Drive you have very precise controls for brew temps, programmable pre-infusion and flow control. You can also set steam boiler pressure to match your frothing style and skill. It's easier to produce consistent results on the Drive. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you so much mate, that helped a lot, i should focus on two boilers, one more question please, Between the Drive and rocket r58 or even the ECM synchronika what do recommend? Thabks a lot mate
Hi j, Great question! No backflushing needed. In fact you can't really back flush the machine as that requires a 3-way valve which exhausts water from the portafilter at conclusion of extraction. Marc
@@jettav88 None specified in the user manual. But, I would clean filter baskets and portafilters with Cafiza. If you use properly treated water no descaling needed. I recommend BWT filters which exchange calcium in water for magnesium. That prevents scale yet provides the mineral content forgood extraction/flavor. Sodium softeners are an option but sodium is a poor extractor compared to magnesium. Marc
@@jettav88 Hi, I would recommend an 'afterflush' though. Get rid of the puck, wipe the basket/filter clean with a micro towel, do the same with the shower cap. Then put the filterholder back and pull down the lever and help it to reject slowly. Any leftovers will be flushed away.
Marc... I purchased a Pro 800 from WLL last December. I just plumbed it in a week ago, and I find that the machine is not silent when the solenoid opens and water is flowing into the boiler. It makes a noise very similar to the vibration pump, but of much lower volume. Is this normal? I was under the impression that when plumbed in, the only noise the machine would make when filling the boiler would be the click of the solenoid opening and closing. I can't imagine that the solenoid is making all that other noise and it does not sound like just water flowing into the boiler, so I don't understand it. I know it's not a high water pressure issue because I am using a BWT Inline Pressure Reducer that is set at 2 bars. Can you please advise?
Hi D, First, thanks for your patronage! It's not unusual and normal to hear the sound of water flowing when the boiler fills but I would not describe it as sounding like the vibe pump operating. A couple of things you can try: 1. Adjust the pressure regulator. Profitec specs input pressure of 2-3 bar so try setting the pressure to 3 bar and see/hear if that makes a difference. 2. Be sure to adjust the pressure regulator when the boiler is actually filling. With the machine heated open the hot water valve so the solenoid opens to fill the machine. Leaving the hot water valve open adjust the pressure regulator. You might try setting the regulator to higher pressure for a few moments when adjusting. The higher pressure/flow could help push out any air trapped in the system which might be causing odd noises. If you continue to have an issue please contact our tech support here: support.wholelattelove.com/hc/en-us Hope that helps! Marc
Hi m, Thanks for the question. Yes, but be aware depending on how quickly you pull back to back the group head may get hotter resulting in brew temp increasing over time. For stable brew temps I recommend allowing 3-4 minutes between shots. Marc
Hi CC, Yes, most other Profitec and ECM machines use stainless steel boilers. Copper is the traditional material used for espresso machines. Using stainless steel is a more recent development. Stainless works well in machines like those with E61 groups which constantly circulate water via thermosiphon out to the group and back to warm the group. There's no thermosiphon in this lever group. Copper is better at conducting heat to the group to warm it. Copper is commonly used for drinking water transport. Leaching not a concern unless there are serious water quality issues like highly acidic water
Hi MA, Great question! You would most likely still need to re-pull. While the lever is down water will continue to flow to the coffee under boiler pressure but depending on how tight your grind is it may not be enough to reach the desired yield. Marc
@@garrettcphillips not mark, but I purchased one and am having a good time with it. Unlike a gaggia it is not a pump-driven machine, it uses a spring to generate the pressure to push the water through the puck. As the spring decompresses it naturally lowers the amount of pressure applied to the coffee to not over-extract as the coffee bed erodes over time. Creates a very smooth espresso. Also makes having a timer a little less important, as the decreasing pressure profile changes the parameters a bit again, and I’ve had shots anywhere from 25-55 seconds with this machine that were smooth and tasty.
Don’t buy the “minis”. Jump right in, Pro 800 will be day and night in comparison. Less money and time on mods and such. Limitations on minis are deal killers. Rest assured, no returns/way back on minis either so... Git reliance.🎉
Apples and oranges. Pro 800 is a spring lever with a huge boiler, steam wand, PID, etc. The Robot is a direct lever like the Flair. Now it's perfectly possible to pull a great shot on a manual lever brewer. I've done fantastic shots on the Flair. You just need to get really good at it. Spring levers handle the profile for you, as opposed to manual you need to control that manually every time, so its inconsistent until you really get the hang of it (not a bad thing, both have their own advantages). A spring machine like the Pro 800, Strega or R24 is closer to a high end pump machine that just happens to have a lever providing a declining profile. If it's just you, making a shot or two with no milk, a Robot might be the best result of you are up for the learning curve. If it's for a family of coffee drinkers, maybe invest in something that provides a better workflow. There are also half way points between a manual brewer and a high end machine. For direct lever there is the La Pavoni and for spring levers you have the Micro Casa. There are pretty good options at many price points when it comes to levers.
Hi, Marc, You see, despite my being a _Synchronika_ user, I am still watching your other reviews ;-) Interesting technique these lever machines… @10:02 I am surprised that when you pulled the lever the machine even moved a bit on the table. Weighing 70 lbs but still moving around… But as I see, there is still plenty of space inside to place some additional lead bars in order to prevent this from happening ;-) But the “hard work“ seems to be worth it when it comes to superior taste. I would love to participate in a side-by-side shootout of the two machines ( _Synchronika_ vs. this lever _Profitec_ machine) tasting the resulting espressi - when using the same grind level and coffee of course ;-)
Hi AGCS, Thanks for the comment. It's not so much the machine moving as flexing when the lever is pulled - very common in this type of machine. I don't think more counterweight would change the flex. If you have flow control on your Synchronika you can simulate a lever profile! I describe how in this video along with 4 other profiles for various brewing situations: ua-cam.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/v-deo.html Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi, Marc, You have no idea how impatiently I am waiting for ECM to offer this _Flow Profil Valve E61_ with the same beautiful barometer as the _Synchronika_ is coming with today. From an aesthetic point of view, I do not like the optical ”mismatch“ of these gauges… And I cannot wait to reproduce these refined ways of coffee brewing you are presenting in your videos. I am _really_ looking forward to that ;-) Do you consider the results with this ECM/Profitec _Flow Control_ in place on par with these lever machines as far as the espresso quality is concerned?
@@anotherguycalledsmith Flow control can give you the same quality as a lever shot. Especially on machines with rotary pump like the Synchronika or Pro 700. With those you can do the low pressure/flow pre-infusion like on the lever. Then, hit the coffee hard with initial higher than standard espresso brew pressure/flow and taper the flow to mimic a lever shot. It's not as easily repeatable as with a lever as you're manually controlling the tapering pressure/flow but you do have the group pressure gauge to help guide your taper.
@@Wholelattelovepage Marc, Thanks a lot, I will give it a try, that's for sure ;-) Please do not hesitate to drop me a line if/when you should ever happen to come over to Berlin, Germany. My wife and me would like to thank you in person for your valuable tips here on this channel. That is, - IF you meet and greet with your audience… ;-) This is a _German_ invitation which means that we would _not_ be surprised if you came back to this ;-)
@@anotherguycalledsmith Thanks for the invite! Having German heritage a visit is on my list! Also want to visit Profitec/ECM facilities. I visited them in Italy 4 years ago but they moved all manufacturing to Germany since then. Marc
Hi Lori, Thanks for the comment. In a manual lever machine the pump is not used to put pressure on the coffee. It only refills the boiler as needed and only if the machine is running from reservoir. As mentioned in the video, if plumbed to waterline the pump of the Pro 800 will never turn on as line pressure is used to refill the boiler. I understand the desire for rotary pump. Using one would increase the price and size of the machine. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage While I fully understand this, the noise of a vibratory pump at any operational point, removes a feeling of quality from the experience, especially at this price point.
@@Wholelattelovepage Although I don't disagree I second Lori's point. At this price point should have a rotary pump. The Londinium R34 as you know a close competitor uses a rotary pump not vibratory.
@@lorimcquinn3966 Although I don't disagree I second Lori's point. At this price point should have a rotary pump. The Londinium R34 as you know a close competitor uses a rotary pump not vibratory.
@@Wholelattelovepage Although I don't disagree I second Lori's point. At this price point should have a rotary pump. The Londinium R34 as you know a close competitor uses a rotary pump not vibratory.
This machine came out right after I placed an order for a Londinium R24. Big difference between the 2 is on the Profitec, you can adjust temperature. While the Londinium you can adjust pre-infusion pressure. Your video does outline another point, I feel the Profitec looks better built. You also get the support of a much larger company in Profitec, warranty is important for something like a coffee machine, post sale support should also be clearly on the lists of requirements for buying a coffee machine. Thank you for the review.
Hi Viktor, You are welcome for the review. Thanks for sharing your thoughts comparing the R24 to the Pro 800. Profitec is known for excellent build quality.
Marc
Never make a sound other than the sweet drips of espresso... That's perfect Marc
Hey KK, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Hi Mark & co at WLL, I appreciate you’re a USA based company and using Fahrenheit is user friendly for your intended customer base, however an additional Centigrade reading during the Scase test etc would help the rest of us when we’re researching our next machine. After all it would mean more views etc and possibly subscriptions. Thanks from the U.K. 👍
Hi P, Thanks for the comment - it's one I get a lot from viewers outside the US! In most videos I do include Celsius and metric measurements alongside. It's weird here in the US! I and everyone I know does coffee weights in grams and I never provide those in the ounces used for weighing most things here. When mentioning liquid volume capacities of boilers, reservoirs, etc I almost always use liters. To be honest I have mixed feelings about C vs. F. Fahrenheit has about 2x the resolution of Celsius unless you get into tenths of degrees which systems on the vast majority espresso machines don't do.
I did mention these temps in the video:
Milk's sweet spot 140F = 60C
Boiler temp setting for Pro 800 248F = 120C
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Fahrenheit has 1.8 times the resolution, which is less than 2. Still a great point though!
@@NouddeKroon You are correct sir! The C/F thing got me in I forget 32F = 0C
I'm happy owner of Profitec E61. Honestly Profitec/ECM have the best quality materials, attention to details and beauty. I evaluated for months others E61 machines but once you see Profitec/ECM you understand this brand is in another level.
Hi Fernando, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Profitec ECM. I agree they do stand out compared to other machines. One example I've used in the past is comparing the internal drip tray seams. Always well finished on Profitec/ECM machines while others have visible spot welds with burn marks. If they go to the trouble of finishing less visible areas you know they're paying attention elsewhere. Another example: Profitec/ECM was one of the first to use stainless steel mushroom valves in their E61 group machines. Other where using chrome plated mushrooms. Scaling on those would loosen the chrome plating and you might find sparkly metal flakes on top of your coffee puck. They also use a custom OPV in their machines which is serviceable.
Marc
I used an Elektra Micro Casa a Leva (spring piston) for years and I always noted how the espresso was sweeter than from my Hx Vetrano. This P 800 is a beauty.
Hi Marc and thank you as always - As feedback, the Profitec machines (also me personally) would enjoy a thermometer or light signal just to know exactly when the machine is ready to brew at specified temperatures- As well as an internal cross-water solenoid type of mechanism to initially mix heat exchanger with brew water so it reduces time in half it takes to be fully ready.
The Pro 800 does not have a heat exchanger. It has a single large boiler containing a dip tube. When the lever is pulled down, the spring is compressed which allows water (under pressure from the boiler) to flow into the brew group chamber below the spring. As the water moves through the dip tube and into the chamber it loses heat and reaches suitable brewing temperature.
Hi rumar4u, As @Driver9 comments (thanks, nailed it!) there is no heat exchanger in the Pro 800. I've seen some use a stick on thermometer strip on the group head. There's the PID display behind the drip tray which shows current boiler temp. Of course the boiler will reach set temperature long before the group head temperature has stabilized.
Marc
The only thing I don't like is the need to "pull the cup" at the end of the shot. I'd like it more if it had a lever actuated solenoid valve to end the shot by diverting flow from the group head to the drip tray. Maybe it would detract from the "purist's" enjoyment of the machine but I can't help but feel that wiping down the side of cups and scales after every shot would fast become an issue. I understand why you rested the cup on the edge of the scales in an attempt to avoid mess, but that doesn't appeal to me as a solution either. The scales work best with the cup centred.
There's no denying its beauty, appeal and novelty though. Great review as always Marc
Hi Space, Thanks for the comment and sharing your thoughts. I think you're right in that it may detract from the purist aspect. And, that would be a major redesign of the group to add that function! Centering cup on scales makes sense, but I've never had issue with the Acaia scales with cup position.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I suppose this machine's configuration does eliminate the need to backflush so swings and roundabouts I suppose. Beautiful thing all the same.
I've owned 3 espresso machines including the 800 here and a Linea Mini. The 800 is by far the cleanest machine I've used. Swapping a cup to catch the remaining flow is very easy. Shots from a naked portafilter almost never spray the front of the machine due to the lever's forgiving pressure profile. Even more - no flushing the group after shots nor do you backflush the group weekly like you would a pump-driven machine. Nearly maintenance free. I could go on.
Hey Whole latte love, great to see a lever machine reviewed again.
I love lever machines, this 800 looks great as well and the 2022 updates or minor indeed (because it already was a damn good machine). Doubted between this Profitec 800 and some others with a price tag ranging from €2500-4000 but eventually went for a Bezzera Strega for 2/3 or 1/2 the price. Looking at the result/vs $ you get in your cup, for me, there is no way back to a pump driven machine. especially in this price category, it completely outperforms the pump machine for home users, and in addition it's way more simple tech and will run forever.
Hi m, Thanks for the comment sharing your thoughts on lever machines! Your feelings mirror mine and those of the passionate lever owners I referenced in the video.
Marc
The Strega is $200 less.. am I missing something?
Sorry for that Damon, I mean in the EU. In EU the P 800 is sold for +/- €2650, the Strega TOP for +/- €1600-1750 (depends which version (there is a SE (spec. edit.) version in NL for (1750 but the basic TOP starts at 1599). The no-pump version is available from around €1400 till €1550.
@@damonm3 Hi, Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MjE1Mjk2OTY2NjYxNCwxNTQ1OTk5MzE5MDk5
Strega is a fine machine as well. What you might be missing...
Pro 800 uses a dipper tube boiler, Stega uses HX boiler. Pro 800 comes with bottomless portafilter and triple shot basket Strega does not. Purchased at Whole Latte Love Pro 800 has 3 year warranty. Strega warranty is 1 year. Pro 800 boiler is nearly double the size of Strega's.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Strega can do pre-infusion at different pressure and also has heated group head that some people may want. In Australia Strega is U$2695 while Pro 800 is U$ 3660 (both tax included) - Pro 800 is over priced here.
Thanks for the video. It’s an enthusiast machine. I run the PRO 600 and I never want to miss that almost 2 Bar Steam Power… Eventhough I have to agree that lever machine Espresso I drink in Italy is a class of its own.
Hi OO, Thanks for the comment and sharing your impressions of Lever shots. That Pro 600 is loaded with the steam!
Marc
Great presentation, Mark. Wonderful delivery. You must have had training in media.
Hey harleymann, Thanks for the kind comment! Before my coffee life began about 13 years ago I did work in broadcast TV.
Marc
Wow! What a beauty! Great review! Thank you🍻.
You bet! Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Hey, Marc! How are you?
I have a weird question, but here it goes: Is the counter-weight inside removable? Also, how much does it weight?
I will have to decrease the machine's weight for a flight...
Thanks for beeing so attentive with everyone!
Hey GMC, I'm well - how are you? Yes, the counterweight is removable. You can see the head of the retaining bolt at this point in the video: ua-cam.com/video/TmBpmVN6cUM/v-deo.html
Not certain on exact weight but guessing it's 10-15lbs, 5-7kg
Hope that helps!
Marc
Beautiful indeed ❤️ only wish is to have time set function so I don't need to wait 40 mins for the heat up.
Hi x, WiFi appliance timer. Likely cost less than if built into machine and more versatile!
Marc
Love it but they should make a direct lever version with a brew pressure gauge. I get the appeal of being able to brew and steam at the same time and the consistency of the spring pressure but I would love a machine with the versatility of a direct lever with the ability to be plumbed in while also having the temperature stability of the 800.
Hi JH, thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Marc
Hi Marc! Great review! I'm still loving my Profitec Pro 500 PID. But, I can see that this will be the upgrade machine, when I have infants around in the near future! Just have to convince my wife.... 😂
Hey Josh, Lol! gotta get approval from the boss - I know how that goes. 😁
Marc
Marc, great review! I am interested in getting the 800 and wonder if you have a recommended grinder (specific model or just a type) that pairs well with a lever machine. It sounds like these have a specific flavor profile, so perhaps some grinders will lend better to this? Bonus if it can dual-use for filter coffee.
Hi a, Thanks for the comment and question! It really depends on how far you want to go. If $$ no object we use the Ceado E37S as our reference grinder. Huge 83mm burrs, beautiful fluffy grind, consistent output of timed doses and extremely precise grind size adjustment. Grinders in the 50-64mm burr size work well look at options from Ceado E series. Those are all 64mm burr size. Differences are in programming ranging from totally manual like the E5 Pro to to timed presets on the E6P. Grind quality is the same from all those. Also look at Eureka grinders. They range in burr sizes from 50 - 65mm. They are more compact, perhaps a bit more contemporary in design. They do not have quite the fluffiness or perfect distribution of the Ceados but very good. Dual use typically means some compromise. Grinders with the precision required for espresso might require a lot of knob turning to go from fine to coarse and it can be tough on some to return precisely to your espresso setting. Hope that helps!
Marc
Beautiful machine
It sure is!
Marc
Hi Marc! Thanks for for doing the review! I've seen this new Pro 800 2.0 in person side by side with other Profitec machines and to me, its absolutely stunning! The nanometer is larger, the stainless steel frame is thick stainless, the levers are the way to go, the wood accents are beautiful and the nostalgia look is priceless. I did notice the drip tray hole is placed farther back towards the machine than version 1.0 and wondered if it is placed too far back to match up with the collection cup. have you had the chance to set up the drain hose to see if everything lines up? Thanks!
Hi Shadow 2, Thanks for your comment. It is a stunning machine! You are correct on the drain hole lineup being a little further back than on the previous version - good catch! Just personally checked it out. Drain cup edge lines up right on the edge of the drain hole. It's too close for comfort! We took some pics and are forwarding to Profitec for comment/solution. One could do some in field modification with a bridge plate to move the cup back a bit to resolve but Profitec should provide a permanent solution.
Marc
Thanks for checking it out!
hi marc,
great review as always
Hey, thanks!
Marc
Awesome video. Just found out about these machines. I am little confused, regarding the draining and the usage. For draining, do you have to set up or connect directly to a plumbing line? And for usage, does the machine have to stay on? I believe I heard 40 minutes of pre-heat time or something. Please clarify, thanks!
Hey b, thanks for the comment and questions! You do not have to connect to a drain line. But, you can if desired. Drip tray is predrilled but has a plug if you choose not to connect to drain line. The machine does not have to stay on but it is 30-40 minutes for complete heat up. Many will use a smart plug so machine can be turned on/off on schedule or remotely.
Marc
Which is better the Profitec 800 or the Bezerra Strega and why? I am really having fun pulling shots with my cheap Flair lever machine and want a powerful spring lever espresso machine. Also how compare to Londinium R24 and Vesuvius Evo Leva machines? Also how does the Profitec 800 rate against the Quickmill Achille and the Izzo Alex Leva? Would like to see you do a comparison of 2022 lever based high end machines like you did for dual boiler semi autos.
Hi RM, Well better is a bit subjective. Personally, I prefer the Pro 800. I appreciate when plumbed to water line the machine is silent - pump never comes on. Thanks for the video suggestion - I'll see what I can do but at the moment I do not have access to some of the machines you mention.
Marc
Hi Mark, we bought out machine from you guys about 5 years ago. We Love it. However the pressure gauge has climbed up to the top of the green line at 14 bars. We cannot find anyway to adjust the pressure and get the needle back to 9 bars. Can you help us understand how we adjust that?
Hi kr, Thanks for your patronage and sharing the love. I'm assuming you do not have the Pro 800 featured in this video as it only has a boiler pressure gauge which maxes out at ~3bar. So you are talking about a brew pressure gauge on some other machine - right? If that's the case, does the gauge always read 14 bar? Even when the machine is off? If so, then the gauge may need replacement. If it goes to 14 bar only when brewing and returns to zero after then the OPV (vibration pump machine) or pump bypass (rotary pump) may need adjustment or again, the gauge could be defective. Best best is to shoot a quick video showing the problem and contact our tech support and share it with them so they can properly advise. Reach out to them here: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us
Hope that helps!
Marc
Another awesome review, Marc. Now I just need to talk to my wife about it.
Hey Sam, Thanks for the comment and good luck with the conversation!
Marc
Great review and at some point my next machine. What’s the offset between the PID setting and the actual temp of the water at extraction? Thanks!
Hi MF, Thanks for the comment and question. The offset is typically ~48F but not constant depending on variables like ambient temp, airflow around the group and how long you allow the coffee to pre-infuse with the lever down. The group itself is much cooler than water in the boiler and absorbs heat from brew water before getting to the coffee. So cooler ambient temps, more airflow or a longer pre-infusion results in cooler brew temp (higher offset) relative to the boiler temp.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc for the detailed reply! Makes sense and I look forward to when I have the machine at home 🙂
Beaultiful images!
Hey, Marc! How are you?
I have a question about this machine. I know it takes about 40min to reach an appropiate temp.
But I take 1 coffe at the morning... 1 in the afternoon... 1 at night...
Do I need to shut down after each use and wait again before the next? Or there is some "sleep mode" for a faster use?
Thank you!!!
Hi GMC, I'm well - just back from a short vaca!
You do not need to shut down - you can leave on continuously. The machine does have an ECO mode which stops heating the boilers after a user set amount of time from last use ranging from 30 minutes to ten hours. But, the machine will not be ready faster after fully cooling in ECO mode. You could use a properly rated appliance timer or Wifi switch to turn the machine on/off on a schedule or remotely.
Marc
Hi. Thx for the great video! One question about the vaccum relief valve. Wouldn't it be better to have a litte plastic cup around the valve where water drips could go in?
So I am struggling to pick between the pro 800 and the bezzera strega. Anyone able to help me understand why i should or should not consider spending a bit more for the Profitec model?
Hey O, here's a link to a side by side spec comparison of the Pro 800 and Strega: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NTkyNjcwNTIxMSwxNTQ1OTk5MzE5MDk5
I've used both machines and prefer the Pro 800. Its build quality is slightly better, from Whole Latte Love the warranty is 3 years on the Pro 800 and 1 year on the Strega. Pro 800 comes with a bottomless triple basket and if plumbed to waterline the pump in the Pro 800 never runs.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi Marc, what do you think the chances are of ECM ever doing a lever version of the Synchronika?? That would be a dream machine.
Hey Mark, probably never happen. Lever machines just operate differently.
Marc
Love the build quality and the simplicity in design. But for me, the boiler is just too big. Wish they would have downsized version in the future.
Hi LZ, Thanks for the comment. Lever machines usually have larger boilers with heavy connections to group head as it's the large boiler volume responsible for heating up the large metal group.
@@WholelattelovepageThanks for response! I understand the principle well. But there are people like me prefer some more compact machine. That's why Londinum is working on Vectis and Odyssey Argos. I'm looking forward to more options of this kind on the market in the future!
You said 248 degrees (F) is a good temp for brewing. That’s 120C. That is closer to steaming temp. Is this just for this machine? I’ve always been told 92 degrees C 197F is the best temp for medium roast.
That is the temperature of the water in the boiler (steaming temperature). In the Pro 800, the boiler water loses heat to the massive brass group head as it travels to the brew chamber between the compressed spring and the group head screen. The system is designed such that the heat loss brings the water temperature into the range suitable for brewing.
Hi D-R, @Driver9 has your answer!
Marc
HI Marc, should i get this pro 800 or the profitec drive ? for milk drinks.
Hi z, Well the Pro 800 is a very hands on machine. It gets a lot of love from those who are looking for a more traditional hands on experience. Definitely more effort using a lever machine like the 800. Also takes longer to warmup. My perception is most 800 owners are focused more on straight espresso and do fewer milk drinks. Changing brewing variables like temperature and brew pressure on the 800 is an art. On the dual boiler Drive you have very precise controls for brew temps, programmable pre-infusion and flow control. You can also set steam boiler pressure to match your frothing style and skill. It's easier to produce consistent results on the Drive.
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you so much mate, that helped a lot, i should focus on two boilers, one more question please,
Between the Drive and rocket r58 or even the ECM synchronika what do recommend?
Thabks a lot mate
Will this have to be backflushed like the other machines, or really low maintenance? Thanks!
Hi j, Great question! No backflushing needed. In fact you can't really back flush the machine as that requires a 3-way valve which exhausts water from the portafilter at conclusion of extraction.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage So no real cleaning and chemicals necessary? Thank you!
@@jettav88 None specified in the user manual. But, I would clean filter baskets and portafilters with Cafiza. If you use properly treated water no descaling needed. I recommend BWT filters which exchange calcium in water for magnesium. That prevents scale yet provides the mineral content forgood extraction/flavor. Sodium softeners are an option but sodium is a poor extractor compared to magnesium.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank You!
@@jettav88 Hi, I would recommend an 'afterflush' though. Get rid of the puck, wipe the basket/filter clean with a micro towel, do the same with the shower cap. Then put the filterholder back and pull down the lever and help it to reject slowly. Any leftovers will be flushed away.
Can you do single shots with it?
Yes
Marc... I purchased a Pro 800 from WLL last December. I just plumbed it in a week ago, and I find that the machine is not silent when the solenoid opens and water is flowing into the boiler. It makes a noise very similar to the vibration pump, but of much lower volume. Is this normal? I was under the impression that when plumbed in, the only noise the machine would make when filling the boiler would be the click of the solenoid opening and closing. I can't imagine that the solenoid is making all that other noise and it does not sound like just water flowing into the boiler, so I don't understand it. I know it's not a high water pressure issue because I am using a BWT Inline Pressure Reducer that is set at 2 bars. Can you please advise?
Hi D, First, thanks for your patronage! It's not unusual and normal to hear the sound of water flowing when the boiler fills but I would not describe it as sounding like the vibe pump operating. A couple of things you can try:
1. Adjust the pressure regulator. Profitec specs input pressure of 2-3 bar so try setting the pressure to 3 bar and see/hear if that makes a difference.
2. Be sure to adjust the pressure regulator when the boiler is actually filling. With the machine heated open the hot water valve so the solenoid opens to fill the machine. Leaving the hot water valve open adjust the pressure regulator. You might try setting the regulator to higher pressure for a few moments when adjusting. The higher pressure/flow could help push out any air trapped in the system which might be causing odd noises.
If you continue to have an issue please contact our tech support here: support.wholelattelove.com/hc/en-us
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the quick reply Marc. I'll try playing with the pressure regulator.
@@driver9337 My pleasure!
Can this unit pull 24 double shots back to back?
Hi m, Thanks for the question. Yes, but be aware depending on how quickly you pull back to back the group head may get hotter resulting in brew temp increasing over time. For stable brew temps I recommend allowing 3-4 minutes between shots.
Marc
Copper Brew Boiler ???
Leaching ???
Other Profitec and ECM Machines use Stainless Steel
Hi CC, Yes, most other Profitec and ECM machines use stainless steel boilers. Copper is the traditional material used for espresso machines. Using stainless steel is a more recent development. Stainless works well in machines like those with E61 groups which constantly circulate water via thermosiphon out to the group and back to warm the group. There's no thermosiphon in this lever group. Copper is better at conducting heat to the group to warm it. Copper is commonly used for drinking water transport. Leaching not a concern unless there are serious water quality issues like highly acidic water
Hi Mark, how come you don’t sell the Lelit Bianchi?
Is it dual or single boiler
Hi aa, Actually it's a dipper boiler so uses one boiler but steam is always available.
Hi Marc! Curious if you were to preinfuse longer (10-15 sec) vs the 5 if you would have to re-pull the lever to get the desired yield (40g)?
Hi MA, Great question! You would most likely still need to re-pull. While the lever is down water will continue to flow to the coffee under boiler pressure but depending on how tight your grind is it may not be enough to reach the desired yield.
Marc
But 40g in a double shot? I reached 40 g in 25-30 seconds on my gaggia… so I’m confused by this machine. Also is there no timer? Thanks Marc!
@@garrettcphillips not mark, but I purchased one and am having a good time with it. Unlike a gaggia it is not a pump-driven machine, it uses a spring to generate the pressure to push the water through the puck. As the spring decompresses it naturally lowers the amount of pressure applied to the coffee to not over-extract as the coffee bed erodes over time. Creates a very smooth espresso. Also makes having a timer a little less important, as the decreasing pressure profile changes the parameters a bit again, and I’ve had shots anywhere from 25-55 seconds with this machine that were smooth and tasty.
I have the new version of this machine and have no issues pulling even 55g of yield... Not sure whats going on and why the extra pull was required.
@@StevenEliuk can I ask what your pid is set to, what your dose is, and how long you keep the lever down for preinfusion before raising?
Don’t buy the “minis”. Jump right in, Pro 800 will be day and night in comparison. Less money and time on mods and such. Limitations on minis are deal killers. Rest assured, no returns/way back on minis either so... Git reliance.🎉
Looks very expensive.
How does the final result from this one compare to the one from the Cafelat Robot?
Apples and oranges.
Pro 800 is a spring lever with a huge boiler, steam wand, PID, etc. The Robot is a direct lever like the Flair.
Now it's perfectly possible to pull a great shot on a manual lever brewer. I've done fantastic shots on the Flair. You just need to get really good at it.
Spring levers handle the profile for you, as opposed to manual you need to control that manually every time, so its inconsistent until you really get the hang of it (not a bad thing, both have their own advantages). A spring machine like the Pro 800, Strega or R24 is closer to a high end pump machine that just happens to have a lever providing a declining profile.
If it's just you, making a shot or two with no milk, a Robot might be the best result of you are up for the learning curve.
If it's for a family of coffee drinkers, maybe invest in something that provides a better workflow.
There are also half way points between a manual brewer and a high end machine. For direct lever there is the La Pavoni and for spring levers you have the Micro Casa.
There are pretty good options at many price points when it comes to levers.
Hi, Marc, You see, despite my being a _Synchronika_ user, I am still watching your other reviews ;-)
Interesting technique these lever machines…
@10:02 I am surprised that when you pulled the lever the machine even moved a bit on the table. Weighing 70 lbs but still moving around… But as I see, there is still plenty of space inside to place some additional lead bars in order to prevent this from happening ;-)
But the “hard work“ seems to be worth it when it comes to superior taste. I would love to participate in a side-by-side shootout of the two machines ( _Synchronika_ vs. this lever _Profitec_ machine) tasting the resulting espressi - when using the same grind level and coffee of course ;-)
Hi AGCS, Thanks for the comment. It's not so much the machine moving as flexing when the lever is pulled - very common in this type of machine. I don't think more counterweight would change the flex.
If you have flow control on your Synchronika you can simulate a lever profile! I describe how in this video along with 4 other profiles for various brewing situations: ua-cam.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/v-deo.html
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi, Marc, You have no idea how impatiently I am waiting for ECM to offer this _Flow Profil Valve E61_ with the same beautiful barometer as the _Synchronika_ is coming with today. From an aesthetic point of view, I do not like the optical ”mismatch“ of these gauges…
And I cannot wait to reproduce these refined ways of coffee brewing you are presenting in your videos. I am _really_ looking forward to that ;-)
Do you consider the results with this ECM/Profitec _Flow Control_ in place on par with these lever machines as far as the espresso quality is concerned?
@@anotherguycalledsmith Flow control can give you the same quality as a lever shot. Especially on machines with rotary pump like the Synchronika or Pro 700. With those you can do the low pressure/flow pre-infusion like on the lever. Then, hit the coffee hard with initial higher than standard espresso brew pressure/flow and taper the flow to mimic a lever shot. It's not as easily repeatable as with a lever as you're manually controlling the tapering pressure/flow but you do have the group pressure gauge to help guide your taper.
@@Wholelattelovepage Marc, Thanks a lot, I will give it a try, that's for sure ;-)
Please do not hesitate to drop me a line if/when you should ever happen to come over to Berlin, Germany. My wife and me would like to thank you in person for your valuable tips here on this channel. That is, - IF you meet and greet with your audience… ;-)
This is a _German_ invitation which means that we would _not_ be surprised if you came back to this ;-)
@@anotherguycalledsmith Thanks for the invite! Having German heritage a visit is on my list! Also want to visit Profitec/ECM facilities. I visited them in Italy 4 years ago but they moved all manufacturing to Germany since then.
Marc
Lost me at Vibration pump,. IMO, should not be on this price level of machine.
Hi Lori, Thanks for the comment. In a manual lever machine the pump is not used to put pressure on the coffee. It only refills the boiler as needed and only if the machine is running from reservoir. As mentioned in the video, if plumbed to waterline the pump of the Pro 800 will never turn on as line pressure is used to refill the boiler. I understand the desire for rotary pump. Using one would increase the price and size of the machine.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage While I fully understand this, the noise of a vibratory pump at any operational point, removes a feeling of quality from the experience, especially at this price point.
@@Wholelattelovepage Although I don't disagree I second Lori's point. At this price point should have a rotary pump. The Londinium R34 as you know a close competitor uses a rotary pump not vibratory.
@@lorimcquinn3966 Although I don't disagree I second Lori's point. At this price point should have a rotary pump. The Londinium R34 as you know a close competitor uses a rotary pump not vibratory.
@@Wholelattelovepage Although I don't disagree I second Lori's point. At this price point should have a rotary pump. The Londinium R34 as you know a close competitor uses a rotary pump not vibratory.
¾ẁes
DAMN I knew I shouldn’t watch this video.
Lol!