The most important part of the debate is that TC dilute the value of the plant. we don't care about TC or not for cheap plants because when people asks if it is TC'ed, they aren't asking if there are somaclonal changes within the plant. They are implicitly asking how much supply is available. A plant is in TC then it should be expected the value will tank. The sellers want to hide it, the buyers want to know it. The discussion around TC causes mutation is exaggerated for economical reason. That's especially the case for small business owner or collector who would want to keep the value of their plants. Anthurium has been in TC for a long time, If TC is prone to produce phenotype changes we would have a lot of literature on it now.
100%. love it when people are trying to use the same theoretical framework for cutting an anthurium 2x a year vs cultivating thousands of specimens out of the source material.
You made a great point that has changed my mind a bit on TC. The hormones being able to change some of the genetics or characteristics is a major point. I formerly believed slapping on “not from TC” was a way to artificially raise price I had the understanding that TCs were exact copies of the mother but by propagating from such a small number of cells, mutations could be amplified. You really helped me understand how things can be manipulated, therefore changed. My issue still remains…you just don’t really know. My BMF purportedly did not come from TC. I kind of believe it because the seller propped theirs from some plants that have been here for years and that’s before BMF were in TC. For me, that puts it in the “cool story bro” category. I have not seen any issues or mutations in BMF for it to make TC an issue (yet) AND, since there are no pedigree or chain of lineage, I don’t truly know 🤷🏽. I guess we will know if an albo variegated line hits the market.😂 Like my Japanese Adansonii tricolor. I got it as a “true Kunzo” imported and propagated from a mother bought from his nursery. Aren’t all of these from him, X times removed? Again, cool story, but is it worth a premium? I’m sure for some, answer will be yes.
Most of the time they are exact copies of the mother plant, but after lots of subcultures, the probability of genetic mutations increase. Interesting about the BMF! I just 3 in TC from Thailand 😄 Once they are large enough it shouldn’t really matter at that point. They’re strong specimens Good point about the Kunzo plants. I just figure more information the better… but they are just plants after all 😅😊 Thanks for always checking out the videos Richard!
I purchased a TC Delta Force from both the Rare Plant Shop UK and the Rare Plant Fairy accidentally because I really didn't think my 1 bid would've won the auction but it did 😂 I've had both since October and I've been amazed at how quickly they've grown and sized up. 95% of my plants are anthurium and it didn't matter to me if these were TC. It doesn't hurt to label them as such for the folks who do care but I assumed they were TC based on the price I paid for each. Folks who don't want TC anthuriums specifically always have the option to purchase cuttings but I'm glad TC is around to make some harder to come by plants more accessible. It's great to be informed on the process and possible outcomes of TC and it's fine if folks specifically don't want TC plants however, I've always found premature TC bashing or the labeling of them as "fake plants" to be just ridiculous. To each their own tho 😊
@asmrtpop2676 You can definitely take a cutting from a TC plant. I should've specified but I'm referencing cuttings from non TC anthuriums like a cutting from the original Delta Force v. a TC Delta Force. The former will usually be more expensive and the buyer usually requests proof of lineage.
Nice Video, very informative, I have both a true Delta Force and also a small TC delta force from Thailand that I purchased at the IAS show this year, the tc is too small to tell, but its growing strong and my guess is that in about 6 months to a year I should be able to see adult leaves and compare. I will let you know how that goes
I'm far from an expert but how does your example of variegation have anything to do with "changing genetics"? I've had mother plants (Anthuriums), 2 in total, push an offset (which is definitely an identical clone of the mother) with variegation, even though the mother plants themselves never had a single spot of variegation. In my opnion, these Delta Forces are definitely identical to the mother plant. I've seen dozens of them and they're all 100% looking like cuttings from the OG DF. Zero variation/change to them. Honestly, I love TC. I love how it makes these fcking overpriced plants cheaper and available for "normal" people. And I haven't really heard of any issues other than these with the Thai Cons...
I dont care if they are TC or not! I want plants to be affordable, not expensive! I have life things to buy that are expensive! I dont care if my thai is tc, she's growing great and it really didnt matter that my baby frydek variegata was too.. it was 20e! Keep on TC'ing guys, Sincerely, by a low income plant lover!
I definitely learned some information about TC, thank you. I don't think I'm personally at a point where it will be a deciding factor on acquiring a plant, but over time that may change. Very informative.
I agree that it may matter for really expensive or “rare” plants. But for most of us, buying most plants, it doesn’t matter and won’t make much difference. Plus once it’s been a few years, you’ll be getting cuttings from someone’s plant who got theirs from someone else and on down the line, and no one will really know. Plus like you said, people will claim it’s not from TC even if it is a cutting or offset from a TC plant. For me personally, I don’t care if it’s disclosed. But for the sake of rare plant sellers and breeders, the rare ones that are just beginning in TC should be disclosed.
id like to see you do genetic testing on a tc vs non tc shop, there is a CHANCE for variation but in general when properly done, TC provides genetically identical clones. mutation is rare.
I think once the plant is big, like over a 4in pot size disclosing TC doesn't matter unless you are planning to tc or chop and sell that plant yourself. The big problem I find is people selling TC plantlets just out of acclimation as "starter" plants. I feel like those are like buying a puppy instead of an adult dog, it will require extra care and be pretty small and useless for a long time unless you like tiny plants. Just like I want to know if I'm getting a top cut, butt cutt, or just how big the plant I'm getting is I want to know if it's a tiny tc plantlet just out of it's diaper.
Based on your description, TC is virtually identical to seed propagation, from a consumer perspective. Both have the same potential results, only one is faster. As you suggsted, a product that is NOT from TC could be labeled as such because it's less common. There's a lot of non science-based worry over how plants are grown, particularly with food. Almost every plant that is domestically grown or sold is genetically modified in some way, but the stigma around that is just nonsense and maybe a bit racist because of accessability.
It’s insane to me the amount of people who freak about “GMOs” but if you asked them to at least go vegetarian they would burst into flames. 😂 They don’t wanna actually do anything that requires discipline and would benefit them they just want to be racist.!
Very nice Topic, the thing for me is, its get weird when you take a cutting from a grown out TC Plant. Now the possible Variation is still in it from the TC, but its still a plant reproduced by Cutting. In Germany TC has a bad reprutaion overall and no one really hides that their plant is from TC when you ask them. But the moment they took a cutting or a corm of a Alocasia, everyone says its not TC. Which is not a real Problem for me, but its just weird to see people demanding the clarfication because the Hormones affect the plant so much and then it suddenly does not effect them at all.
Can we talk about sellers just showing the leaf when selling Monstera Albo/Aurea and other varigated plants. Yeah, the leaf could be gorgeous, but the growth point could be on the all green or even all white portion. I had one seller get pissed at me on a purge because I asked for pics of the growth points on several Aureas.
And here is where I think you're jumping off the cliff and now we stepping into purism. I know at this point we all should understand sexual reproduction and the mutations that surround such events. But just in case we don't... there is a chance the seeds you get won't be viable either, that they will have some sort of defect. Same things happen to people before birth and sometimes right after birth aka mutations. I know we are used to getting plants from clones or cuttings; thus making our hard earned money worth it that the plant we get wont shrivel up and die or present itself as something abnormally different than what we would expect but if you buy something from seed you have these same chances. There is even less chance when it involves TC, is it important to sell healthy plants totally but getting wrapped up in this tiny percentage is not worth the stress if anything it sounds like you are more concerned with its source like dog breeds than the actual plant itself and personally I think thats waste of energy just enjoy the plant!
Love that you brought up dog breeds. As a licensed vet tech so often we see pet parents who obsess over the lineage or source of where their dog came from and I am just inwardly rolling my eyes because they won the genetic lottery of chronic health issues. That’s just how it is sometimes!! You cannot 100% guarantee life will never develop imperfections/mutations/illness.
@@asmrtpop2676I used to be a surgical vet nurse not licensed. The amount of fuss we would see with our customers was crazy but also the mutts were the dogs that were the healthiest. It can get really ridiculous. The anger or frustration over minute differences in living creatures is wild.
I think its definitly a double edged sword. And this video explaines everything so well. First of all I think plants should always have being TC'd disclosed for every reason you mentioned here. Second of all maybe TC could have different production paths that could lead to good or bad variations in the results. Like if you only TC from original plants vs TC of a TC plant of TC plant; the amount and type of hormones used. And knowing how they were TC'd is close to impossible in most cases so it kinda sucks its like that. Having rare plants in TC is good for avoiding poaching on the other hand what good is it if plants aren't healthy?
TC increases the amount of the plant created so it creates a falsely elevated concept of mutations created “from TC”. Plants get mutations. TC just creates a LOT of plants a LOT faster than traditional growing methods.
Very interesting and thanks for the tip- will now buy only 4” or larger plants when tissue culture is involved so as to avoid mutations. And that Paraiso Verde was disgusting! Thanks for the video.
I believe the PV was just fascinations (spelling?). Ya know how some strawberries and tomatoes can have multiple bodies smashed together? Same thing. It naturally occuring. I've had it happen with one anthurium leaf, and then the plant when back to normal, which is the normal (tho some species, like strawberries, are much more inclined).
they should be disclosed, we disclose with TC on the label at my work we assume most people that buy the more expensive plants likely know what TC means if they see it on the label specifically when looking a certain harder to find varieties!
TC can go bad really fast. If everyone is getting a TC, then TCs that plant, and than the next person who buys it does the same... the plants are going to be worthless soon. And if that is relied on and no one propagated the original parent plant naturally that entire plant line will go extinct. TC is great for the average person if done responsibly so we can have plants that would normally be expensive, but it isn't good for plant breeding. I'm afraid the issues are going to keep seeping into the average consumer market too and we will end up with more Tai Constalation type issues.
I think some people also try to sell the same hybridized combination under the cultivar name. And you don't even need to go down a rabbit hole - a quick Google search is clear it's not the same. I think TC definitely matters if you're talking about unique hybrids. Do I care if some Home Depot Polly is TC? No. But for any plant where genetics matter, absolutely. My guess is the people who don't care, don't collect those plants.
Yup, agreed. Lots of plants out there are crosses, but not clones of the exact DF mother.. and the rest of them are from TC, which is awesome, but worth mentioning if you’re buying a $300+ plant
Here's a little conspiracy for us to chew over: how long will it be before larger tc labs/nurseries are intentionally producing anthurium that cannot reproduce? In both a seed batch and tc batch, one can have plants that are more hardy and others that never truly thrive. I wonder what a comparison would look like between the two groups on successful growth, rate of growth, etc.
Oooo this is good! Sterile crops are super popular in food! This could definitely become a thing 👀 For plants that don’t flower easily, I think somalclonal is preferred and the numbers scale quickly
Sorry late to this. I get TC, but it needs to be clearly labeled for all customers. Whether it is for you or not, that's on the person spending the money to decide. For me, I care and I don't care. If I'm just buying some burle marx flame plant or a minty monstera, yeah I'm gonna look at the variegation and/or health of plant because I just want that plant to add to my collection. So i don't really care how it got to me. Buuuuuut! For unique plants that have only one known form in the history of humanity, heck yes, i care about how it gets to me. There is a reason why A. delta force costs thousands of dollars. There's only one form of the plant and the same plant has been propogated thousands of times. Believe it or not, TC techniques can mutate plants and for such the unique form of Delta force, this is not a financial risk I'm willing to take. I'm not paying for some knock off form that was sold under "DF" cz someone wants to flip a plant, i want the real deal. Anyway, proud owner of a delta force with documentation that it's a clone cutting.
I feel 100% the same way. Thank you for pointing out that TC has the ability to introduce mutations at a higher rate than traditional stem cuttings! This is a contentious subject, but that doesn’t change the truth
For some reason, every time I watch this guy, I can’t resist the impression that everything he says is only a marketing scheme for their plant shop. The plants he slips in during the video, his tone, posture, and all. The things he says very often seem like straight-up lies, especially when you do some more research on a subject.
Yup. That would make total sense. Especially since we’re now selling mostly TC plants… Warning consumers of the pitfalls of TC has to be GREAT for business 👍 Fuck outta here with that shit
Hi I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on tissue culture plants and a lot of them have just melted. The ones that survived some growing well, but the majority have lost variation or just don’t grow at all just melt
I completely disagree with how you called out rpf in this video. While I understand the point you are trying to make calling out another business is wrong and unnecessary.
If everyone has a ferrari, then, ferrari is no longer special and beautiful. If many people has the delta TC, then the original one is not special anymore, coz we can see it everywhere. TC is good but not for something that has art in it.
I think a lot of people who know nothing of genetics are speaking their uneducated opinion with confidence leading to false information. That said, to me, it does not matter if a plant is tc or not. Like he said most if not all of the ones I have already are tc. All 213 are strong and beautiful... Cloning of food crops is not a good thing but It's too long and complicated to go into. The importance of genetic variation in food crops is not the same as as for pretty decorations.
I think maybe since almost all the plants on the market are tc, it might be better to disclose when it isn't tc instead. I just assume my plants are tc at this point, even the rare ones.
I think it should be disclosed because most consumers want to know and value the two (TC vs. cuttings from an original) slightly differently. Sellers know this is the case so they aren’t disclosing it. I have a feeling sellers also don’t want the public to know certain plants are being produced via TC. They know it’ll tank the value.
Tissue culture as it is right now is fantastic, the labs are all being very responsible and choosing super strong healthy mothers. If that changes it probably wouldn’t be so great anymore and I think if sellers are being upfront with the source of their plants but we can’t guarantee that will happen.
What a load of nonsense, you cant dilute genetics! All youve done is talk about facebook "science", all its going to be is that 1/1000 might have some oddity which will be either thrown out and not sold to the end consumer. If your only true example is one leaf that was double headed then this was a pointless video.
@@prettyingreen That doesn't mean the genetics are diluted, they would be changed or mutated. As part of any good husbandry program you always need to pick out and kill off the weakest or at least remove them from the breeding program (or tc). Somaclonal variation is a good thing if used appropriately and the same principal is always a risk when getting plants from seed. Across a big population you are bound to see less/more resistant. I wish you would make proper scientific videos instead of talking in half truths, trying to scare monger people into keeping their prices high for your products.
@@lindsayhayns6920I loved finding this channel but I am really surprised at the immaturity of their response to you. Maybe it’s an inside joke though that I just don’t get lol. Anyway I just wanted to say you hit the nail on the head. Is diluted genetics even a thing? Is that a correct term?
Great video! I always was wondering how people in Thailand produce so many variegated plants and was suspecting the chemically induced TC plants, but didn't know exactly if there were a term for them in botany. Thanks for sharing this information. Happy growing and have a great holiday season.
Well as a tc producer from Europe, I really agree on all of the infos in the video. Sommaclonales variation do exist and occur, but most lab produce a few thousand plants for one explant, the some babies are taken out of tc grown for a year and then re-introduced and that limit the risk of sommaclonales variation to almost 0. This is the case for the banana production, big labs who produce bananas for food production don't want sommaclonales variation, and they manage by taking the explant out of tc and re-introducing later. The problem comes from labs that don't take the extra step of doing so, in our lab we do it if we want to have clones, but if we want to create a new cultivar we will than leave it in the tc media for longer and use 2-4D which a mutagen, most labs in Asia use 2-4D for this reason and they use callus organogenesis since it's cheaper. Hope this help, thanks again for all your videos, keep up the good work 😊
Hey! Thank you for watching and your insights in TC. Would you be ok with answering a few questions about TC? Here is my email: chris@prettyingreen.com
I feel it should be disclosed. I’ve only been involved with house plants for 2 years and in that short time I’ve seen a scary decline in the quality of plants. My local grocery store has started carrying “rarer” plants that used to be over $150 on Etsy for $29.99 that’s super awesome but here’s the issue I’m seeing. The plant leaves are like paper thin they are not strong quality plants. they had some philo ring of fires in stock and the leaves were like see through. Several people in the FB plant groups rushed out to buy them and the majority of them all died. I have some Ring of fires that are not TC so I know what they should look like but for someone who may not know that’s not cool. I know for myself I see these big beautiful plants and when purchasing a small one I can afford, I’m hoping it grows and looks like the pictures I’ve seen. With all this cloning who knows what it will look like. With the people who say it doesn’t matter or they don’t care I don’t think they fully understand the implications of what’s happening.
This is EXACTLY one of the main issues with over producing a plant and why I also think it should be disclosed. The translucent leaf is super common in TC, and after that they sometimes melt back
I don't mind TC but I would like to know because I have noticed TC plants are a bit finicky for a few weeks after getting them in the home. That way I'm prepared for it.
A tissue culture is just a plant grown from a teeny tiny cutting. Because that cutting is just a handful of cells, a mutation occurring in one of the cells could more easily become the cell the rest of the plant grows from. (this is what causes somaclonal variance). A Mutation in a single cell on a traditional cutting (and I promise you there are many one each cutting) won't effect much UNLESS that cell is on one of the growth points. From a buyer's perspective it boils down to a game of odds. Some tiny tenth of a % of tissue culture plants are going to have acquired a random mutation. Some tiny thousandth of a % of plants from a cutting will have be cut from a branch that grew from a mutation on a growth point. The odds are lower on a cutting. But the odds for either are so low it's not worth worrying about. On the Thai Constellations: Somaclonal variance won't effect an entire plant line unless the grower then selects a plant effected by somaclonal variance to become the new mother plant which samples are taken from. I don't know if the grower for TC did this. The only sure thing is that the mother plant changed. It's possible they just accidentally killed it.
I think if TC can change the plant enough to create newer variations that can be sold for more, then there is a chance the genetics you're getting are less desirable. You just have no idea. It's like making a tape copy of another tape in the 80's. If you keep doing that over and over, the quality of the video & audio is degraded. I think it's good that it's disclosed at time of purchase.
I think this is a very interesting topic. Yes, somaclonal variation happens in tissue culture. With that said, somaclonal variation can also naturally occur. The only reason that this is such a big deal in tissue culture is because the plants are being produced at the cellular level, so somaclonal variation can occur more readily.
I have bought Delta Force TC, TWICE…. They are wonderful and have grown very well. They both looks so identical and I don’t see any of the problems discussed here.
I am glad this video was made! Kaylee Ellen is now justifying why she did not disclose, and I think this video here made some good points against hers.
Tissue culture mutations only occur in about 10% of tissue cultured plants so it’s not that common. Somaclonal variation is not desirable in tissue culture.
I’m curious. Can you share scientific literature on this? Looking for peer reviewed studies because this is interesting and could influence my choices.
Also they were right because you must ask what is their technic by sing TC , for example if the explant was used to make micropropagation, so they took lil clones by pushing it with hormone media, without multiplication of calus or what ever ... so scientifically a clone made in vitro keep being a clone, say that only because the plant was micro propagated it has any soma clonal variation is not accurate and very wrong
So please, give us your process of how to avoid Somalclonal variation…. How many times do you limit subcultures? Which auxin or cytokinins do you avoid? Which concentrations do you limit to?
I like the pros of TC, but the cons are definitely frustrating when you get a plant that is not as hardy. I have a TC Jose Buono and have been battling bacterial blight with it for months, and it just keeps coming back. It’s down to 3 leaves and I had to prune one today because blight showed up. For someone who is less experienced with plants, this could be a devastating ordeal. For my part, if it doesn’t survive this, I think I will explicitly look for a cutting from a healthy mother plant instead of TC.
So, all the ThaiCon that is on the market currently is TC and this also happened to other plants. But all the fuss about Delta is.. just envy I guess. Nobody states that ThaiCon is a TC, only if it is in gel, apparently. That it was in the same situation as Delta just a couple of years ago. So it's a cycle.
Yes, it is better to be transparent and disclose when a rare plant has been produced via TC instead of by cutting or offset. But it's also important to know when a plant has been TCed from an original cutting or offset, as those TCs will be much less likely to differ from the mother plant. The one that gets me is growers bragging about how much better seed-grown plants are to TC. Seed-grown plants can have a ton of genetic variation, and you can get lots of very weak seedlings in any batch.
I think disclosing if something is from TC is a good idea. I am not a fan of the word "clone" though. I usually hear it used to mean TC, and not from cuttings or division, but I see here that many are using it to mean the opposite.
Another reason why i always want to know if a plants tc. It might end up getting a sterilizing mutation witch would be an unfortunate for my purposes. Granted the risk isn't an automatic no for tc. After all in general BE plants will be tissue cultured and most individual species aren't automatically infertile because of being in TC. It's just a bit of a risk that comes with the lower prices.
It’s also just an inflated risk. TC produces SO MANY more plants faster you see mutations and think oh, TC makes higher mutation chances! But it’s just that TC makes plants faster. Mutations happens regardless.
I usually dont care if a plant is Tc or not but i have expirience with a Rhaphidophora tetrasperma i bought in a big box store in 2021 that grows really wierd … i think it Shows a Mutation because of tc
I think TC is great. It reduces poaching, theft (from plant shops), and increases availability of these ornamental plants to more plant lovers. In my experience, the only people who TRULY don’t like TC are a handful of sellers who supposedly have direct lineage (ie: cut vegetative propagations) plants from the OG collectors….but even those collectors have hybridized and lost original plants meaning the ones being passed around with “premium” pricing are likely no more “pure” than those coming from other vendors. After all, there’s no “AKC paperwork” that comes with your fancy anthurium. In addition, the premium plants being sold are often mutations of the OG material themselves (so no longer “clones”, genetically) and you’re starting a new F1 generation with that plant. Now, that being said, I *fully* believe in fair market values. In other words, if there are still people who want ONLY a piece of the original plant, more power to them. If people want to pay premium for certain looks, colors, patterns, or leaf shapes they fancy…absolutely fine. Most people, however, are happy with the cheap Chinese “dupe”. As for the vigor of most TCs - most would have never made it out of the two-leaf stage, let alone into transportable 4” pots by the millions, if they were fatally flawed. Thai Cons simply needed people to realize they need a chunky aroid mix to be happy. 😊
So helpful that you created this, yes, I would prefer to know if TC. I’d take it a step further and want to know the lineage in quality of the mother plant. Kinda like they do with AKC dogs.
Hey that was my email I sent to rare plant fairy to buy the delta force lol!!! Love your work man!! I love tissue culture huge fan of it!!!!! Just not when I’m trying to buy a delta force!! You made my day!!
Hey Kyle!! Yes that was your email 😅 Wanted to anonymize for privacy! But thank you for letting me share it! It’s an important question for plants, and worth disclosing when selling such high value plants!! Thank you for all the kind words and sharing your experience!
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The most important part of the debate is that TC dilute the value of the plant. we don't care about TC or not for cheap plants because when people asks if it is TC'ed, they aren't asking if there are somaclonal changes within the plant. They are implicitly asking how much supply is available. A plant is in TC then it should be expected the value will tank. The sellers want to hide it, the buyers want to know it. The discussion around TC causes mutation is exaggerated for economical reason. That's especially the case for small business owner or collector who would want to keep the value of their plants.
Anthurium has been in TC for a long time, If TC is prone to produce phenotype changes we would have a lot of literature on it now.
Agree.
100%. love it when people are trying to use the same theoretical framework for cutting an anthurium 2x a year vs cultivating thousands of specimens out of the source material.
You shouldn’t be discouraged buying tissue cultured delta force just because of mutations. Mutations in tissue culture are very rare
And TC can fight poaching, so pls more of it!!
You made a great point that has changed my mind a bit on TC. The hormones being able to change some of the genetics or characteristics is a major point. I formerly believed slapping on “not from TC” was a way to artificially raise price
I had the understanding that TCs were exact copies of the mother but by propagating from such a small number of cells, mutations could be amplified. You really helped me understand how things can be manipulated, therefore changed.
My issue still remains…you just don’t really know. My BMF purportedly did not come from TC. I kind of believe it because the seller propped theirs from some plants that have been here for years and that’s before BMF were in TC.
For me, that puts it in the “cool story bro” category. I have not seen any issues or mutations in BMF for it to make TC an issue (yet) AND, since there are no pedigree or chain of lineage, I don’t truly know 🤷🏽. I guess we will know if an albo variegated line hits the market.😂
Like my Japanese Adansonii tricolor. I got it as a “true Kunzo” imported and propagated from a mother bought from his nursery. Aren’t all of these from him, X times removed? Again, cool story, but is it worth a premium? I’m sure for some, answer will be yes.
Most of the time they are exact copies of the mother plant, but after lots of subcultures, the probability of genetic mutations increase.
Interesting about the BMF! I just 3 in TC from Thailand 😄 Once they are large enough it shouldn’t really matter at that point. They’re strong specimens
Good point about the Kunzo plants. I just figure more information the better… but they are just plants after all 😅😊
Thanks for always checking out the videos Richard!
I purchased a TC Delta Force from both the Rare Plant Shop UK and the Rare Plant Fairy accidentally because I really didn't think my 1 bid would've won the auction but it did 😂 I've had both since October and I've been amazed at how quickly they've grown and sized up. 95% of my plants are anthurium and it didn't matter to me if these were TC. It doesn't hurt to label them as such for the folks who do care but I assumed they were TC based on the price I paid for each. Folks who don't want TC anthuriums specifically always have the option to purchase cuttings but I'm glad TC is around to make some harder to come by plants more accessible. It's great to be informed on the process and possible outcomes of TC and it's fine if folks specifically don't want TC plants however, I've always found premature TC bashing or the labeling of them as "fake plants" to be just ridiculous. To each their own tho 😊
In the orchid world meristem clones are worth more money.
Can’t a cutting be from a TC plant though..? (Not bashing, I actually really like TC and recently bought a book to learn more on setups)
@asmrtpop2676 You can definitely take a cutting from a TC plant. I should've specified but I'm referencing cuttings from non TC anthuriums like a cutting from the original Delta Force v. a TC Delta Force. The former will usually be more expensive and the buyer usually requests proof of lineage.
All the beautiful species of Anthuriums available and people want this ugly cross. It doesn’t even grow large leaves.
Nice Video, very informative, I have both a true Delta Force and also a small TC delta force from Thailand that I purchased at the IAS show this year, the tc is too small to tell, but its growing strong and my guess is that in about 6 months to a year I should be able to see adult leaves and compare. I will let you know how that goes
I'm far from an expert but how does your example of variegation have anything to do with "changing genetics"? I've had mother plants (Anthuriums), 2 in total, push an offset (which is definitely an identical clone of the mother) with variegation, even though the mother plants themselves never had a single spot of variegation.
In my opnion, these Delta Forces are definitely identical to the mother plant. I've seen dozens of them and they're all 100% looking like cuttings from the OG DF. Zero variation/change to them.
Honestly, I love TC. I love how it makes these fcking overpriced plants cheaper and available for "normal" people. And I haven't really heard of any issues other than these with the Thai Cons...
You don't have to be an expert to know that this has been studied, repeated and proven for decades. "In my opnion" does not matter.
I dont care if they are TC or not! I want plants to be affordable, not expensive! I have life things to buy that are expensive! I dont care if my thai is tc, she's growing great and it really didnt matter that my baby frydek variegata was too.. it was 20e!
Keep on TC'ing guys,
Sincerely, by a low income plant lover!
100% I agree! I’m a big proponent of TC 😄
I definitely learned some information about TC, thank you. I don't think I'm personally at a point where it will be a deciding factor on acquiring a plant, but over time that may change. Very informative.
So glad it was helpful! Thank you for watching 😄
I agree that it may matter for really expensive or “rare” plants. But for most of us, buying most plants, it doesn’t matter and won’t make much difference. Plus once it’s been a few years, you’ll be getting cuttings from someone’s plant who got theirs from someone else and on down the line, and no one will really know. Plus like you said, people will claim it’s not from TC even if it is a cutting or offset from a TC plant. For me personally, I don’t care if it’s disclosed. But for the sake of rare plant sellers and breeders, the rare ones that are just beginning in TC should be disclosed.
I’ll absolutely buy a TC delta force once they’re cheap enough! Genetically weak is what my budget demands. 😂
id like to see you do genetic testing on a tc vs non tc shop, there is a CHANCE for variation but in general when properly done, TC provides genetically identical clones. mutation is rare.
There couldn’t be MORE of a spot on comment!! Currently looking into RAPD testing for genetic variation
I think once the plant is big, like over a 4in pot size disclosing TC doesn't matter unless you are planning to tc or chop and sell that plant yourself. The big problem I find is people selling TC plantlets just out of acclimation as "starter" plants. I feel like those are like buying a puppy instead of an adult dog, it will require extra care and be pretty small and useless for a long time unless you like tiny plants. Just like I want to know if I'm getting a top cut, butt cutt, or just how big the plant I'm getting is I want to know if it's a tiny tc plantlet just out of it's diaper.
This is a great point
is somaclonal variation the new pythium?
It’s one of the main points in the Thai con video I replied to you in
Based on your description, TC is virtually identical to seed propagation, from a consumer perspective. Both have the same potential results, only one is faster. As you suggsted, a product that is NOT from TC could be labeled as such because it's less common.
There's a lot of non science-based worry over how plants are grown, particularly with food. Almost every plant that is domestically grown or sold is genetically modified in some way, but the stigma around that is just nonsense and maybe a bit racist because of accessability.
It’s insane to me the amount of people who freak about “GMOs” but if you asked them to at least go vegetarian they would burst into flames. 😂 They don’t wanna actually do anything that requires discipline and would benefit them they just want to be racist.!
Very nice Topic, the thing for me is, its get weird when you take a cutting from a grown out TC Plant. Now the possible Variation is still in it from the TC, but its still a plant reproduced by Cutting.
In Germany TC has a bad reprutaion overall and no one really hides that their plant is from TC when you ask them. But the moment they took a cutting or a corm of a Alocasia, everyone says its not TC. Which is not a real Problem for me, but its just weird to see people demanding the clarfication because the Hormones affect the plant so much and then it suddenly does not effect them at all.
Can we talk about sellers just showing the leaf when selling Monstera Albo/Aurea and other varigated plants. Yeah, the leaf could be gorgeous, but the growth point could be on the all green or even all white portion.
I had one seller get pissed at me on a purge because I asked for pics of the growth points on several Aureas.
I always assume my plants are from TC. Thanks for sharing!
And here is where I think you're jumping off the cliff and now we stepping into purism. I know at this point we all should understand sexual reproduction and the mutations that surround such events. But just in case we don't... there is a chance the seeds you get won't be viable either, that they will have some sort of defect. Same things happen to people before birth and sometimes right after birth aka mutations. I know we are used to getting plants from clones or cuttings; thus making our hard earned money worth it that the plant we get wont shrivel up and die or present itself as something abnormally different than what we would expect but if you buy something from seed you have these same chances. There is even less chance when it involves TC, is it important to sell healthy plants totally but getting wrapped up in this tiny percentage is not worth the stress if anything it sounds like you are more concerned with its source like dog breeds than the actual plant itself and personally I think thats waste of energy just enjoy the plant!
Love that you brought up dog breeds. As a licensed vet tech so often we see pet parents who obsess over the lineage or source of where their dog came from and I am just inwardly rolling my eyes because they won the genetic lottery of chronic health issues. That’s just how it is sometimes!! You cannot 100% guarantee life will never develop imperfections/mutations/illness.
@@asmrtpop2676I used to be a surgical vet nurse not licensed. The amount of fuss we would see with our customers was crazy but also the mutts were the dogs that were the healthiest. It can get really ridiculous. The anger or frustration over minute differences in living creatures is wild.
seeds by reason they even exist is to change offspring genetics. so, whats the difference? tissue culture, seeds? both different genetics
Excellent TC information! Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
I think its definitly a double edged sword. And this video explaines everything so well.
First of all I think plants should always have being TC'd disclosed for every reason you mentioned here.
Second of all maybe TC could have different production paths that could lead to good or bad variations in the results. Like if you only TC from original plants vs TC of a TC plant of TC plant; the amount and type of hormones used. And knowing how they were TC'd is close to impossible in most cases so it kinda sucks its like that. Having rare plants in TC is good for avoiding poaching on the other hand what good is it if plants aren't healthy?
TC increases the amount of the plant created so it creates a falsely elevated concept of mutations created “from TC”. Plants get mutations. TC just creates a LOT of plants a LOT faster than traditional growing methods.
This is an interesting take!
Very interesting and thanks for the tip- will now buy only 4” or larger plants when tissue culture is involved so as to avoid mutations. And that Paraiso Verde was disgusting! Thanks for the video.
Loved the PV
I believe the PV was just fascinations (spelling?). Ya know how some strawberries and tomatoes can have multiple bodies smashed together? Same thing. It naturally occuring.
I've had it happen with one anthurium leaf, and then the plant when back to normal, which is the normal (tho some species, like strawberries, are much more inclined).
they should be disclosed, we disclose with TC on the label at my work we assume most people that buy the more expensive plants likely know what TC means if they see it on the label specifically when looking a certain harder to find varieties!
TC can go bad really fast. If everyone is getting a TC, then TCs that plant, and than the next person who buys it does the same... the plants are going to be worthless soon. And if that is relied on and no one propagated the original parent plant naturally that entire plant line will go extinct. TC is great for the average person if done responsibly so we can have plants that would normally be expensive, but it isn't good for plant breeding. I'm afraid the issues are going to keep seeping into the average consumer market too and we will end up with more Tai Constalation type issues.
I need more drama/tea update with those folks from Texas
☕️🫖☕️
I think some people also try to sell the same hybridized combination under the cultivar name. And you don't even need to go down a rabbit hole - a quick Google search is clear it's not the same. I think TC definitely matters if you're talking about unique hybrids. Do I care if some Home Depot Polly is TC? No. But for any plant where genetics matter, absolutely. My guess is the people who don't care, don't collect those plants.
Yup, agreed. Lots of plants out there are crosses, but not clones of the exact DF mother.. and the rest of them are from TC, which is awesome, but worth mentioning if you’re buying a $300+ plant
I have lots of tissue cultured, the problem is they easily gets mushy and rot..
This happens lots with the Thai Constellation
Here's a little conspiracy for us to chew over: how long will it be before larger tc labs/nurseries are intentionally producing anthurium that cannot reproduce?
In both a seed batch and tc batch, one can have plants that are more hardy and others that never truly thrive. I wonder what a comparison would look like between the two groups on successful growth, rate of growth, etc.
Oooo this is good! Sterile crops are super popular in food! This could definitely become a thing 👀
For plants that don’t flower easily, I think somalclonal is preferred and the numbers scale quickly
Sorry late to this. I get TC, but it needs to be clearly labeled for all customers. Whether it is for you or not, that's on the person spending the money to decide.
For me, I care and I don't care. If I'm just buying some burle marx flame plant or a minty monstera, yeah I'm gonna look at the variegation and/or health of plant because I just want that plant to add to my collection. So i don't really care how it got to me.
Buuuuuut! For unique plants that have only one known form in the history of humanity, heck yes, i care about how it gets to me. There is a reason why A. delta force costs thousands of dollars. There's only one form of the plant and the same plant has been propogated thousands of times. Believe it or not, TC techniques can mutate plants and for such the unique form of Delta force, this is not a financial risk I'm willing to take. I'm not paying for some knock off form that was sold under "DF" cz someone wants to flip a plant, i want the real deal.
Anyway, proud owner of a delta force with documentation that it's a clone cutting.
I feel 100% the same way. Thank you for pointing out that TC has the ability to introduce mutations at a higher rate than traditional stem cuttings! This is a contentious subject, but that doesn’t change the truth
For some reason, every time I watch this guy, I can’t resist the impression that everything he says is only a marketing scheme for their plant shop. The plants he slips in during the video, his tone, posture, and all. The things he says very often seem like straight-up lies, especially when you do some more research on a subject.
Yup. That would make total sense. Especially since we’re now selling mostly TC plants… Warning consumers of the pitfalls of TC has to be GREAT for business 👍
Fuck outta here with that shit
Every time? So you got that impression from the Thai Con and PPP videos for example??? 😂
now i need you to convince me NOT to get into TC i already have too many plants but it sounds so interesting
Hahaha it’s fascinating but soooo tedious and challenging 😅😅😅 If you’re up for a biological challenge go for it!!
Hi I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on tissue culture plants and a lot of them have just melted. The ones that survived some growing well, but the majority have lost variation or just don’t grow at all just melt
It happens a good amount in acclimation phase
I completely disagree with how you called out rpf in this video. While I understand the point you are trying to make calling out another business is wrong and unnecessary.
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If everyone has a ferrari, then, ferrari is no longer special and beautiful. If many people has the delta TC, then the original one is not special anymore, coz we can see it everywhere. TC is good but not for something that has art in it.
I am a consumer, I do not sell my plants! As long as my plant is growing well, I think TC is great!! I have 250+ plants in my collection!!
Same here, if the plant is healthy I don't really care :)
I think a lot of people who know nothing of genetics are speaking their uneducated opinion with confidence leading to false information. That said, to me, it does not matter if a plant is tc or not. Like he said most if not all of the ones I have already are tc. All 213 are strong and beautiful... Cloning of food crops is not a good thing but It's too long and complicated to go into. The importance of genetic variation in food crops is not the same as as for pretty decorations.
I think maybe since almost all the plants on the market are tc, it might be better to disclose when it isn't tc instead. I just assume my plants are tc at this point, even the rare ones.
You’re my favourite planty content creator! I always learn so much! Wish I was in the US so I could buy from your store
This makes my day!!! Thank you so much for watching 🙌🌱
Don’t be sad, I subscribed
Haha thank you!!!😊
I think it should be disclosed because most consumers want to know and value the two (TC vs. cuttings from an original) slightly differently. Sellers know this is the case so they aren’t disclosing it. I have a feeling sellers also don’t want the public to know certain plants are being produced via TC. They know it’ll tank the value.
Tissue culture as it is right now is fantastic, the labs are all being very responsible and choosing super strong healthy mothers. If that changes it probably wouldn’t be so great anymore and I think if sellers are being upfront with the source of their plants but we can’t guarantee that will happen.
What a load of nonsense, you cant dilute genetics! All youve done is talk about facebook "science", all its going to be is that 1/1000 might have some oddity which will be either thrown out and not sold to the end consumer. If your only true example is one leaf that was double headed then this was a pointless video.
Hahahahahahahah GO GOOGLE SOMALCLONAL VARIATION.
@@prettyingreen That doesn't mean the genetics are diluted, they would be changed or mutated. As part of any good husbandry program you always need to pick out and kill off the weakest or at least remove them from the breeding program (or tc). Somaclonal variation is a good thing if used appropriately and the same principal is always a risk when getting plants from seed. Across a big population you are bound to see less/more resistant. I wish you would make proper scientific videos instead of talking in half truths, trying to scare monger people into keeping their prices high for your products.
@@lindsayhayns6920I loved finding this channel but I am really surprised at the immaturity of their response to you. Maybe it’s an inside joke though that I just don’t get lol. Anyway I just wanted to say you hit the nail on the head. Is diluted genetics even a thing? Is that a correct term?
What you are talking about is very rare. They should disclose that the plants are TCed but they are right that they are clones
Why does everything gotta be a conspiracy 🙄
Great video! I always was wondering how people in Thailand produce so many variegated plants and was suspecting the chemically induced TC plants, but didn't know exactly if there were a term for them in botany. Thanks for sharing this information. Happy growing and have a great holiday season.
Even cuttings can change, sports are a source of cultivars.
propogating is cloning, seperating a plant is cloning.
Well as a tc producer from Europe, I really agree on all of the infos in the video. Sommaclonales variation do exist and occur, but most lab produce a few thousand plants for one explant, the some babies are taken out of tc grown for a year and then re-introduced and that limit the risk of sommaclonales variation to almost 0. This is the case for the banana production, big labs who produce bananas for food production don't want sommaclonales variation, and they manage by taking the explant out of tc and re-introducing later. The problem comes from labs that don't take the extra step of doing so, in our lab we do it if we want to have clones, but if we want to create a new cultivar we will than leave it in the tc media for longer and use 2-4D which a mutagen, most labs in Asia use 2-4D for this reason and they use callus organogenesis since it's cheaper. Hope this help, thanks again for all your videos, keep up the good work 😊
Hey! Thank you for watching and your insights in TC. Would you be ok with answering a few questions about TC? Here is my email: chris@prettyingreen.com
I feel it should be disclosed. I’ve only been involved with house plants for 2 years and in that short time I’ve seen a scary decline in the quality of plants. My local grocery store has started carrying “rarer” plants that used to be over $150 on Etsy for $29.99 that’s super awesome but here’s the issue I’m seeing. The plant leaves are like paper thin they are not strong quality plants. they had some philo ring of fires in stock and the leaves were like see through. Several people in the FB plant groups rushed out to buy them and the majority of them all died. I have some Ring of fires that are not TC so I know what they should look like but for someone who may not know that’s not cool. I know for myself I see these big beautiful plants and when purchasing a small one I can afford, I’m hoping it grows and looks like the pictures I’ve seen. With all this cloning who knows what it will look like. With the people who say it doesn’t matter or they don’t care I don’t think they fully understand the implications of what’s happening.
This is EXACTLY one of the main issues with over producing a plant and why I also think it should be disclosed. The translucent leaf is super common in TC, and after that they sometimes melt back
I don't mind TC but I would like to know because I have noticed TC plants are a bit finicky for a few weeks after getting them in the home. That way I'm prepared for it.
A tissue culture is just a plant grown from a teeny tiny cutting. Because that cutting is just a handful of cells, a mutation occurring in one of the cells could more easily become the cell the rest of the plant grows from. (this is what causes somaclonal variance).
A Mutation in a single cell on a traditional cutting (and I promise you there are many one each cutting) won't effect much UNLESS that cell is on one of the growth points.
From a buyer's perspective it boils down to a game of odds. Some tiny tenth of a % of tissue culture plants are going to have acquired a random mutation. Some tiny thousandth of a % of plants from a cutting will have be cut from a branch that grew from a mutation on a growth point. The odds are lower on a cutting. But the odds for either are so low it's not worth worrying about.
On the Thai Constellations:
Somaclonal variance won't effect an entire plant line unless the grower then selects a plant effected by somaclonal variance to become the new mother plant which samples are taken from. I don't know if the grower for TC did this. The only sure thing is that the mother plant changed. It's possible they just accidentally killed it.
I think if TC can change the plant enough to create newer variations that can be sold for more, then there is a chance the genetics you're getting are less desirable. You just have no idea. It's like making a tape copy of another tape in the 80's. If you keep doing that over and over, the quality of the video & audio is degraded. I think it's good that it's disclosed at time of purchase.
I think this is a very interesting topic. Yes, somaclonal variation happens in tissue culture. With that said, somaclonal variation can also naturally occur. The only reason that this is such a big deal in tissue culture is because the plants are being produced at the cellular level, so somaclonal variation can occur more readily.
I have bought Delta Force TC, TWICE…. They are wonderful and have grown very well. They both looks so identical and I don’t see any of the problems discussed here.
I am glad this video was made!
Kaylee Ellen is now justifying why she did not disclose, and I think this video here made some good points against hers.
Tissue culture mutations only occur in about 10% of tissue cultured plants so it’s not that common. Somaclonal variation is not desirable in tissue culture.
I am planning on selling TC plants soon, and I am ALWAYS disclosing that they are tissue culture.
They come from TC.
I will but TC always.not a problem;I UNDERSTAND genetics....so should you.
I’m sorry what
Who knew plant drama could be so scandalous? 🌿😂 Spilling the tea on Tissue Culture - because even our Anthuriums have secrets! 🍵💚
I’m curious. Can you share scientific literature on this? Looking for peer reviewed studies because this is interesting and could influence my choices.
You can google "somaclonal variation" and there are probably thousands of studies.
Yup, quick search into Google Scholar will bring up a bunch! I unfortunately can’t link in comments any longer :/
Also they were right because you must ask what is their technic by sing TC , for example if the explant was used to make micropropagation, so they took lil clones by pushing it with hormone media, without multiplication of calus or what ever ... so scientifically a clone made in vitro keep being a clone, say that only because the plant was micro propagated it has any soma clonal variation is not accurate and very wrong
This guy has no idea what he’s talking about. I do TC and he’s extremely naive.
So please, give us your process of how to avoid Somalclonal variation…. How many times do you limit subcultures? Which auxin or cytokinins do you avoid? Which concentrations do you limit to?
Lol, great comment section. It's the type of topic where everyone becomes a PhD.
Such a wild comment section 😂
I like the pros of TC, but the cons are definitely frustrating when you get a plant that is not as hardy. I have a TC Jose Buono and have been battling bacterial blight with it for months, and it just keeps coming back. It’s down to 3 leaves and I had to prune one today because blight showed up. For someone who is less experienced with plants, this could be a devastating ordeal.
For my part, if it doesn’t survive this, I think I will explicitly look for a cutting from a healthy mother plant instead of TC.
So, all the ThaiCon that is on the market currently is TC and this also happened to other plants. But all the fuss about Delta is.. just envy I guess. Nobody states that ThaiCon is a TC, only if it is in gel, apparently. That it was in the same situation as Delta just a couple of years ago. So it's a cycle.
Yes, it is better to be transparent and disclose when a rare plant has been produced via TC instead of by cutting or offset. But it's also important to know when a plant has been TCed from an original cutting or offset, as those TCs will be much less likely to differ from the mother plant. The one that gets me is growers bragging about how much better seed-grown plants are to TC. Seed-grown plants can have a ton of genetic variation, and you can get lots of very weak seedlings in any batch.
I think disclosing if something is from TC is a good idea. I am not a fan of the word "clone" though. I usually hear it used to mean TC, and not from cuttings or division, but I see here that many are using it to mean the opposite.
I would love a DF even if it is tissue cultured. I still believe it should be disclosed, but would happily purchase.
I'm not having that plant in my collection.
I like TC, but a disclosure would be good.
Another reason why i always want to know if a plants tc. It might end up getting a sterilizing mutation witch would be an unfortunate for my purposes. Granted the risk isn't an automatic no for tc. After all in general BE plants will be tissue cultured and most individual species aren't automatically infertile because of being in TC. It's just a bit of a risk that comes with the lower prices.
It’s also just an inflated risk. TC produces SO MANY more plants faster you see mutations and think oh, TC makes higher mutation chances! But it’s just that TC makes plants faster. Mutations happens regardless.
I usually dont care if a plant is Tc or not but i have expirience with a Rhaphidophora tetrasperma i bought in a big box store in 2021 that grows really wierd … i think it Shows a Mutation because of tc
It shows a mutation because plants can have mutations, that’s all.
I think TC is great. It reduces poaching, theft (from plant shops), and increases availability of these ornamental plants to more plant lovers.
In my experience, the only people who TRULY don’t like TC are a handful of sellers who supposedly have direct lineage (ie: cut vegetative propagations) plants from the OG collectors….but even those collectors have hybridized and lost original plants meaning the ones being passed around with “premium” pricing are likely no more “pure” than those coming from other vendors. After all, there’s no “AKC paperwork” that comes with your fancy anthurium.
In addition, the premium plants being sold are often mutations of the OG material themselves (so no longer “clones”, genetically) and you’re starting a new F1 generation with that plant.
Now, that being said, I *fully* believe in fair market values. In other words, if there are still people who want ONLY a piece of the original plant, more power to them. If people want to pay premium for certain looks, colors, patterns, or leaf shapes they fancy…absolutely fine.
Most people, however, are happy with the cheap Chinese “dupe”.
As for the vigor of most TCs - most would have never made it out of the two-leaf stage, let alone into transportable 4” pots by the millions, if they were fatally flawed. Thai Cons simply needed people to realize they need a chunky aroid mix to be happy. 😊
Great insights! 🙌
This was so informative. Your videos are interesting. Subscribe people!!
Thank you so much!! 🙌
I could really go for a Thai constellation bell pepper.
😂
The drama is crazy. 😂
😅😅😅
I think we are playing a dangerous game…..that is going to bite us in the butt! 😂
So helpful that you created this, yes, I would prefer to know if TC. I’d take it a step further and want to know the lineage in quality of the mother plant. Kinda like they do with AKC dogs.
The problem is that there is no AKC for plants (same analogy I used in my post). Just a bunch of (backyard?) breeders saying theirs is purebred.
Hey that was my email I sent to rare plant fairy to buy the delta force lol!!! Love your work man!! I love tissue culture huge fan of it!!!!! Just not when I’m trying to buy a delta force!! You made my day!!
Hey Kyle!! Yes that was your email 😅 Wanted to anonymize for privacy! But thank you for letting me share it! It’s an important question for plants, and worth disclosing when selling such high value plants!! Thank you for all the kind words and sharing your experience!