We FINALLY Understand Why Bats Live So Long

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  • Опубліковано 1 лют 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 1,6 тис.

  • @rogerstone3068
    @rogerstone3068 Рік тому +2203

    "We finally understand why bats live so long" - and then a list of things we DON'T fully understand about the perplexing biology of bats. Still fascinating, but the answer you promised is... still speculative.

    • @petevenuti7355
      @petevenuti7355 Рік тому +208

      I would have been just as interested in watching if he said, "we now have a clue" or "we now have a hint" instead of "we now understand".

    • @grapesofhypocrisy9842
      @grapesofhypocrisy9842 Рік тому

      I heard high intensity exercise creates ozone and certain cells can wield ozone as a weapon. Flying might produce ozone.

    • @tikimillie
      @tikimillie Рік тому +80

      They’re obviously vampires in disguise

    • @SabbaticusRex
      @SabbaticusRex Рік тому

      @@tikimillie Bats can be super cute -- but they are _total_ dicks .

    • @sunninho
      @sunninho Рік тому +1

      Their biology and evolution allows them to withstand viruses that kill all others, including rabies. We must inherit their genes and become bats

  • @hardinhenry
    @hardinhenry 8 місяців тому +93

    Why have I only learned about bat‘s echo location in school, but never their resistance against diseases and aging??? This seems so much more impressive to me

    • @mizzshortie907
      @mizzshortie907 5 місяців тому +10

      That’s another reason the vampire lore is comparable to bats

    • @EFM_95
      @EFM_95 4 місяці тому +7

      Education system sucks.. its purpose is more economical than real knowledge

    • @jchinckley
      @jchinckley 4 місяці тому +2

      @@EFM_95 Sad, but true.

    • @skeeterinnewjersey5256
      @skeeterinnewjersey5256 4 місяці тому

      I have a suggestion. Contact Bat Conservation International (BCI) online. I have learned an unbelievable amount about bats from them.

    • @PasserbyYT
      @PasserbyYT 4 місяці тому

      ​@@EFM_95Money is important. Did you have biology though?

  • @davidwoods1622
    @davidwoods1622 Рік тому +747

    The immune system may not be directly responsible for the longevity. He mentioned in the last 5 minutes that bats have better DNA validation. Just having that may lead to the longer life. DNA validation is the running theory on why elephants and whales live so long and lack cancer.

    • @AnnoyingNewsletters
      @AnnoyingNewsletters Рік тому +59

      Validation helps us live better and longer. 😉

    • @cynthiagonzalez658
      @cynthiagonzalez658 Рік тому +16

      Hypotheses need proof ‼️

    • @anim8torfiddler871
      @anim8torfiddler871 Рік тому +41

      Fascinating. Each passing day I am reminded of my GROWING ignorance. I would love to learn more about the concept of *DNA Validation.*
      Think I'll do a little browsing... Thanks to all for making the comments as good as the article.

    • @Angel_EU34
      @Angel_EU34 Рік тому +38

      We have very effective autophagy tho... problem is we eat way to often and way too much and pretty much never activate it.

    • @gregferguson7737
      @gregferguson7737 Рік тому +8

      ​@Angel-wo8gv additionally mTOR ends up chronically switched ON due to cell senescence and cells fighting to offset sarcopenia which blocks autophagic activation. Rapamycin adminstered in intermittent doses might compensate for such in humans.

  • @gtd9536
    @gtd9536 Рік тому +4

    Subscribed!! I love it. My interest in longevity biology naturally lead me into an interest in bats long before covid outbreak. What delight to see a basic summary of all I have read over many years into one short video. Thanks for making these facts about these remarkable creatures and the interplay between disease and the immune system widely available and more accessible to the public. You now have another regular viewer!

  • @Gigus6969
    @Gigus6969 Рік тому +473

    I work under someone who has a doctorate in mammology/ecology and he specializes in bats, so I feel the need to correct some information on this video if you are interested in learning about bats.
    Firstly, bats are indeed as susceptible to disease as other animals. Currently they are more susceptible than other species and many of them are at risk of becoming extinct. White-Nose syndrome is a disease affecting all bat species caused by a fungus which was first seen in 2016. It has a mortality rate of over 90% and kills bats mostly by disrupting their hibernation, leading to them using vital fat reserves and dying of starvation. In severe cases it can cause them to be unable to breathe due to covering the rostrum or cause wing damage as the fungus actually penetrates tissues. Bats are not immortal, they are in severe risk if a cure isn't found.
    Secondly, the postulate that he is referring to with body size and lifespan is definitely something that we see a lot happen in biology, but as with anything else there are major exceptions to these patterns. The naked mole rat is the most extreme example I can think of because they can live up to 30 years, when compared to their most related extant cousins, all rodents which have lifespans of years in some species. Bats are very, very distant from rodents, they are closer to whales, all carnivores, giraffe, horse, etc than to us which all have lifespans similar to bats. We are closer to rodents than rodents are to bats. Phylogeny can be a better way to understand lifespans in animals because in most cases closely related species tend to have longer (K selected) lifespans or shorter (R selected) lifespans. Like anything though there are always exceptions that we don't understand.

    • @MrCazjd
      @MrCazjd Рік тому +12

      I have an idea, leave them alone??

    • @scottbrower9052
      @scottbrower9052 Рік тому +34

      He also doesn't address the wide range of bat species and sizes. Everything from tiny insectivores to giant fruit bats (a.k.a., flying foxes). Surely, lifespans will vary.

    • @promerops
      @promerops Рік тому +6

      @@scottbrower9052 Are the insectivores and the fruit bat/flying foxes all that closely related?

    • @scottbrower9052
      @scottbrower9052 Рік тому +5

      @@promerops I don't think they are, no, but I'm not a zoologist.

    • @Dcupholder
      @Dcupholder Рік тому +10

      A man that lives to 80 which is the average life expectancy and has a normal heart rate of 80 beats per minute has approximately 3,36384 billion heart beats . A 150heart beats pm bat that lives to 40( *they hibernate that’s why 150 not 200/unusual for a bat, they live to 20 years tops) has 3,1536 billion heart beats

  • @mikefiatx19
    @mikefiatx19 11 місяців тому +20

    Mice eat about 15 times a day, bats eat twice a day between dusk and dawn. Maybe the bat goes into Autophagy due to not eating. Autophagy is known to repair human cells.

    • @gqas1247
      @gqas1247 2 місяці тому

      Wow fifteen times!?! 😮

    • @KenFullman
      @KenFullman Місяць тому

      @@gqas1247 This is why mice don't live long. It's unhealthy to eat between meals. Mice have a lot more meals to eat between, hence they're unhealthy.

  • @b.a.erlebacher1139
    @b.a.erlebacher1139 Рік тому +128

    I know of two age records for bats, one (39) from Alberta, Canada, and the other (41) from Russia. It would be interesting to know if microbats from warm climates, that don't spend half their lives hibernating, are also of comparable length. Btw, the Alberta record was from a living wild bat that had been banded as an adult, so could be even older.

    • @HappyBeezerStudios
      @HappyBeezerStudios 11 місяців тому +4

      small bats in hot climates would be even more affected by fever. Sure, the small body size means they would cool out faster, but the climate mitigates a lot of that.

    • @Arionid
      @Arionid 9 місяців тому

      would depend on their heart rate 💀

  • @talk2tomer
    @talk2tomer 9 місяців тому +32

    You're not taking into consideration that humans show the exact same temperatures while jogging or practicing other aerobic exercise..... this might provide another reason for why a daily exercise routine is so important.......

    • @yurineri2227
      @yurineri2227 2 місяці тому +1

      Good coment, its true that might play role in why phisical exercise bosts imunity
      But that bost isn't evem close to as big as in bats
      While exercising humans can increase their metabolic rate to about 2x
      Bats can increase it by 15x
      The backlash that would give to a bacteria or a virus is absurd

    • @neskrafe
      @neskrafe 3 дні тому

      @@yurineri2227 when I am training on empty stomach, I feel my metabolism goes crazy- pure adrenaline

  • @Michal_Kosakowski
    @Michal_Kosakowski Рік тому +595

    Now it makes sense why Batman sounds like he has a serious permanent throat infection, and never dies.

    • @vikassm
      @vikassm Рік тому +22

      This comment is underrated. Thumbs up 👍

    • @gilyun8352
      @gilyun8352 Рік тому +25

      Its herpes

    • @darthregulus
      @darthregulus Рік тому +15

      He ate out Cat Woman and got the clap in throat 😂😂😂😂

    • @gordslater
      @gordslater Рік тому +5

      me-ow chow

    • @kathyolney4083
      @kathyolney4083 Рік тому +2

      😂😂😂😂

  • @AlEndo01
    @AlEndo01 11 місяців тому +15

    One fascinating additional issue, not addressed in this video: maximal metabolic capacity. Several years ago, a book, "Power, Sex and Suicide" by Mark Lane addressed a fascinating phenomenon, having to do with "excess" mitochondrial capacity. If you look at the weight vs. longevity graph, birds live much longer than "expected." A finch smaller than a mouse lives 30 years, and 3 lb. parrots can live 90. Turns out a trained endurance athlete can increase his/her metabolic rate with exercise by a factor of 2.5. A bird can do a lot more than 20. This "excess" reduces the generation of reactive oxidative chemicals that are detrimental to health and longevity. I wonder how bats do in terms of "mitochondrial reserve."

  • @kriegmesserdclxvi2833
    @kriegmesserdclxvi2833 Рік тому +86

    Makes sense for an animal that lives in large colonies to evolve greater resistance to social contact diseases.

    • @ouknow1446
      @ouknow1446 11 місяців тому

      Many herd animals are susceptible to social contact diseases.

    • @Alienami
      @Alienami 11 місяців тому +5

      Especially an indoor moist environment of cooler temperatures, typically.

    • @ryandylan6946
      @ryandylan6946 11 місяців тому +3

      Yes it would make sense, buttt humans and a lot of other mammals have always lived in colonies without these great resistance. i think pure luck in the genetic lotterie is the reason

    • @Jack-he8jv
      @Jack-he8jv 11 місяців тому +8

      @@ryandylan6946only relatively recently we started living in similar cesspit densities, even still, americas were wiped out by plagues that dont effect cesspit dwellers.

    • @policy8analyst
      @policy8analyst 9 місяців тому +5

      I hate mosquitos so I love bats.

  • @MrHeuvaladao
    @MrHeuvaladao Рік тому +61

    Bats are like mr. Burns. They have so many diseases that one ends up fighting another, thus leaving the host alone for living long. 😂😂😂

    • @paradisepipeco
      @paradisepipeco 8 місяців тому +4

      *_"To a rat, a bat is an angel."_*
      ~~ Bruce Wayne

  • @Italianjedi7
    @Italianjedi7 Рік тому +92

    I’ve always loved bats, and this cements my desire to help them.

    • @SabbaticusRex
      @SabbaticusRex Рік тому

      Ah-hah ! ..but a bat's pet pangolin caused Disease X . So , ya , bats are _total_ dicks .

    • @nerdjournal
      @nerdjournal Рік тому +8

      Fruit Bats are frigging cute. Like winged puppies.

    • @christophermullins7163
      @christophermullins7163 Рік тому

      ​@@nerdjournal❤

    • @KorithStoneheart
      @KorithStoneheart Рік тому +3

      Help them by not interfering. We think we help nature by interfering with it and we actually cause greater harm

    • @sneakydragon2352
      @sneakydragon2352 11 місяців тому +6

      @@KorithStoneheart that's such an ignorant statement

  • @waxon2
    @waxon2 Рік тому +7

    Thank you Dr Ben for promoting Planet Wild. Their videos of collaborative land/habitat restoration Permaculture techniques and the subsequent successes are fantastic.

  • @higherresolution4490
    @higherresolution4490 Рік тому +188

    You missed the biology of birds. A rat who lives about 3 years has the same body weight and high metabolic rate as a pigeon. But the lifespan of pigeons is 35 years. And they tend to never look old.
    Instead of carnosine made in the liver from two amino acids, (beta-alanyl-L-histidine) as an endogenous anti-glycation agent, birds manufacture anserine, which is 7 times more powerful an anti-glycation agent as carnosine.

    • @EkilRevolution
      @EkilRevolution Рік тому +4

      what is the anti-glycative mechanism?

    • @higherresolution4490
      @higherresolution4490 Рік тому +13

      The anti-glycation mechanism is defined by a biochemical pathway that you can find on Wikipedia or any biochemical website. There's no way to create that in the UA-cam comment section.
      Quite some years ago, Russian doctors created a treatment for cataracts, which represent glycated chrystalin proteins in the lens. In this case, they use acetyl-l-carnosine in a liquid form.

    • @Frrk
      @Frrk 11 місяців тому +4

      The lifespan of pigeons in the wild is like 3-6 years. In captivity they do live longer, like 20 years

    • @higherresolution4490
      @higherresolution4490 11 місяців тому +12

      @@Frrk The lifespan of pigeons in the wild is complex. The shorter lifespan is partially a product of predation. The other factor is weather events, and also climate in general. 35 years is the maximum lifespan of a pigeon, and I can cite that fact.

    • @StrangersIteDomum
      @StrangersIteDomum 8 місяців тому +11

      Is it because pigeons in the wild eat too much McDonald's and junk food?

  • @andykaufman7620
    @andykaufman7620 10 місяців тому +4

    I just thought of a great movie idea. Researchers are trying to create life extending science for humans and create human vampires instead. 28 Days move over, 33 Nights is the new hotness.

  • @philclancaster
    @philclancaster Рік тому +65

    My late father remembered seeing syphilis being treated with malaria at the psychiatric hospital where he worked in Sussex, maybe late 1950's or early 1960's

    • @dannydadog1987
      @dannydadog1987 11 місяців тому +2

      How did it work out and why particulary the psychiatric hospital?

    • @virtualtools_3021
      @virtualtools_3021 10 місяців тому +7

      @@dannydadog1987It did work fairly often but fell out of favor because of safer alternatives like antibiotics that became avaliable. Possibly in the psychiatric hospital because advanced syphilis causes neurological symptoms

    • @robinac6897
      @robinac6897 9 місяців тому

      St.Francis?

    • @KenFullman
      @KenFullman Місяць тому

      I remember, back in the 1960s my mother telling me that, Malaria is a terrible disease but at least it has the benefit that you can't catch syphilis if you have malaria. She didn't have any medical background and had probably never travelled out of the country, so I have no idea why she had this impression. It was just one of those strange facts she believed. I wonder now if she had heard something of this experiment.

  • @thomasgrimm1664
    @thomasgrimm1664 5 місяців тому

    Hello Dr. Ben, thanks for being transparent about your involvement in the company. I'm curious about your recommendation for Planet Wild. Is that segment part of a paid advert? I've seen them mentioned on other channels as well and would like to know if they sponsor videos.

  • @dankedozo
    @dankedozo Рік тому +27

    It's Morbin' time!!
    Loved this video! I did find it funny where you mention a study where they give bats ebola then immediately show a clip of a bat biting a gloved finger!

    • @superkd7030
      @superkd7030 Рік тому +3

      Zombie Apocalypse origin story right there. 😂😂😂

    • @michaelmeredith912
      @michaelmeredith912 Рік тому

      Yep harmless…stick your finger in its mouth 😂

    • @danielasare5560
      @danielasare5560 Рік тому +1

      😂😂 I’m sure it was pun intended

  • @kenhansew7892
    @kenhansew7892 3 місяці тому

    Just discovered your wonderful channel and wanted to say thank you for sharing. Your insights and explanations are top notch. The levity sprinkled here and there act as ‘floaties’ that help carry this ignoramus through the deeper parts of some of these informative videos without which I’d have drowned and been swept away, never to view these more.

  • @skybluskyblueify
    @skybluskyblueify Рік тому +53

    Bombing bats help to spread rabies rather than eliminate the threat to us. Before the bats were concentrated in one area, after the bomb those that survive fly off to new locations .
    Another reason why bats have special immune systems is that they range far and wide and come into contact with many more animal species. Since many live in large concentrations they need to be versatile in how they handle diseases.

    • @SabbaticusRex
      @SabbaticusRex Рік тому +3

      Very cool . Where did these bats go - asking for a friend . Ignore the bombs .

    • @lewischime5737
      @lewischime5737 Рік тому

      ​@@SabbaticusRexlol

    • @agaragar21
      @agaragar21 11 місяців тому

      So why isn't this the case for Humans who gather in large metropolis's like Tokyo ?........is it cause we're basically a new species, or our current environs are a new circumstance to our genetics

    • @nekhumonta
      @nekhumonta 11 місяців тому +2

      ​@@agaragar21humans have had to endure a lot of plagues since we started to live in cities, but we adapted by increasing our hygiene.

    • @bigheadrhino
      @bigheadrhino 9 місяців тому +2

      @@agaragar21out adaptations is what we can do with our brains. Hygiene like someone else said and medicine are examples of this. We are a communal species so we ven the fact that some of us die from disease is an adaptation because dying stops the disease from spreading.

  • @Gary_Texan_USA
    @Gary_Texan_USA 4 місяці тому

    Thank you, Ben, for your comprehensible and erudite essays.

  • @josephharden5592
    @josephharden5592 Рік тому +52

    This seems like the beginning of a new school vampire flick where we try to extend our lives...but end up turning ourselves into vampires 😒😂

    • @mastergems5145
      @mastergems5145 Рік тому +2

      That movie already exists where humans become almost extinct while people have become vampires

    • @josephharden5592
      @josephharden5592 Рік тому +2

      @@mastergems5145 but was it based on this knowledge about the longevity of bats, humans trying to use that scientific knowledge and then inadvertently creating vampires?

    • @ynraider
      @ynraider Рік тому +5

      @@josephharden5592 "Morbius". It's the movie of all time... "It's Morbin' Time!"

    • @ynraider
      @ynraider Рік тому

      @@mastergems5145 "Daybreakers" is an instant classic!

    • @hemidas
      @hemidas 11 місяців тому +1

      Daybreakers?

  • @kenhansew7892
    @kenhansew7892 3 місяці тому

    Also, loved the heat reference to Vegas, where it is early October and still we await days with a high

  • @winoodlesnoodles1984
    @winoodlesnoodles1984 Рік тому +43

    There is another way of looking at this. Activity promotes circulation. Circulation aides the immune system. It isn't just the high body temperature but the circulating of the blood that aides the immune system.
    If I feel a bit down, like I may be coming down with something, I will go for a run, bike ride or hike. When I get back I feel 100% again. It is just movement promoting blood circulations which makes it easier for the immune system to do it's job.
    The only illness I've had in the past 35 years is disentery which I got from drinking hand squeezed lemonaide in Peru. In my defense, the beer there tastes like crap and I need a break from it. I should have gotten bottled soda.
    The point is that attempting to list a single thing as the sole reason for the bat's longevity and resistance to illness is a ignorant, at best.

    • @miguelmejia4656
      @miguelmejia4656 Рік тому +2

      mic drop

    • @HappyBeezerStudios
      @HappyBeezerStudios 11 місяців тому +4

      If it were just circulation, small animals would generally live longer. They have incredibly high heart rates and small bodies.
      But hey, the lemonade was bad but the beer was good? Just like in the middle ages. Just make sure to drink small beer or table beer if you don't want to get completely wasted.

    • @winoodlesnoodles1984
      @winoodlesnoodles1984 11 місяців тому +1

      @@HappyBeezerStudios 100% Which is why I stated "aides" the immune system. Good circulation with a poor immune system does jack squat. However, high body temperature from exercise, the added circulation from than exercise and a good immune system and you have a solid recipe to fight off an incredible number of diseases. That is not all diseases, because nothing other than death does that. 😁

    • @cykeok3525
      @cykeok3525 11 місяців тому +1

      @@winoodlesnoodles1984 Your premise is contingent on the assumption that all other small mammals have a "poor immune system"?

    • @miguelmejia4656
      @miguelmejia4656 11 місяців тому +1

      @@winoodlesnoodles1984 you also seem to forget other mammals make vitamin c in their body. so mammals don't really get sick as often. where humans don't make vitamin c and we have to consume it from nature and food.

  • @5nowChain5
    @5nowChain5 Місяць тому

    When i get influenza i usually try to overheat my core temperature to reduce to effects and duration of the symptoms, using a high tog duvet and a heated under blanket, So having a grotty experience sweating it out does have benefits. Swedish Saunas look interesting option.

  • @MI-wc6nk
    @MI-wc6nk Рік тому +19

    Personally the most attractive feature in a bat as a mammal, is it ability to fly - anyone working on that?!? ;)
    Thanks as always for your great content.

    • @douglasbrenner1351
      @douglasbrenner1351 Рік тому +20

      I'm no expert, but I strongly feel the bats ability to fly is probably related to their possession of wings.

    • @tharusmc9177
      @tharusmc9177 Рік тому

      ​@@douglasbrenner1351😆

    • @christophermullins7163
      @christophermullins7163 Рік тому +1

      ​@douglasbrenner1351 😂 tyvm ily have a great week

    • @sneakydragon2352
      @sneakydragon2352 11 місяців тому +1

      humans are too heavy for this, unless the wings are too long and it requires a full engine to create the energy to produce it, in that case we have airplanes and helicopters....

  • @JDM_Fanatic
    @JDM_Fanatic 11 місяців тому +3

    As someone that has been around since the 1300's after a cave exploration tour, I can agree that these little bastards are immortal.

  • @ShaneSaxson
    @ShaneSaxson Рік тому +11

    Fever theory is kind of correct. The nightly fevers from flying hold the virus count at a low level. Thus giving the bat time to produce antibodies to said virus.

    • @rickwrites2612
      @rickwrites2612 Рік тому +3

      Hmm..except he does say they did have a high viral load, they just didn't get sick, and other mammals with similar fever got sick if they had low virus level...the serine vs leucine in immune system and targeted immune system seem more promising

    • @davidbatista1183
      @davidbatista1183 Рік тому

      Perhaps virus "hybernate" and therefore doesn't do damage ?? 🤔 Like bears that don't do anything during that state but instead of hybernating on extreme cold they do it on extreme hot 😆

    • @Bialy_1
      @Bialy_1 Рік тому

      @@davidbatista1183 The video contains info about bats with extremely high amount of viruses that would literally be super deadly to other mammals and was not doing anything to bats... so there is no hibernation and there is huge resistance to what ever is killing other animals or the virus is not fully functional in them/cauing different reaction to some of his mechanisms).

    • @davidbatista1183
      @davidbatista1183 Рік тому

      @@Bialy_1 perhaps u misunderstood my comment ?? 🤔

    • @mnomadvfx
      @mnomadvfx Рік тому

      @@Bialy_1
      "so there is no hibernation and there is huge resistance to what ever is killing other animals or the virus is not fully functional in them/cauing different reaction to some of his mechanisms"
      Bats seem to have evolved into an ideal carrier (non infected host) species for a multitude of viruses.
      The ongoing hyperthermic action caused by their nocturnal flights may be the primary culprit for this ideal carrier phenomenon by the regular decimation of viral loads by way of thermal decomposition.
      The viral loads have the daytime to recover somewhat by division.

  • @LocomotiveThought
    @LocomotiveThought 4 місяці тому

    Really interesting video, I knew absolutely nothing about bats. I appreciate subject matter like Biology & Genetics over Space & Theory. "We have it on a table in front of us." is my kind of science.

  • @RuneRelic
    @RuneRelic Рік тому +21

    Theres actually a two stage immune response in humans when you think about.
    1. Body temperature.
    2. Indleness.
    In constrast, on serveral occasions when I start to feel sick and probably against better advice, I will go for a run. Specifically to get the blood flowing through my system as efficiently as possible, rather than stagnating.
    So perhaps two very different methodologies are at play.
    One hyper accelerates blood chemistry/temperature, while trying to keep disease transfer minimised, through low flow rates.
    One hyper accelerates both blood chemistry/temperature and efficiency/flowrate to kill disease as rapidly as possible, ignoring the transfer rate.
    Stasis vs hyperflow.
    Be interesting to see how fast the blood chemistry is in bats, if there is little to no serious inflammation. Perhaps this is done the opposite way around too. At least in relative terms. Preffering a high flow filtration system, might explain why there is few if any zombie cells in bats. Yet serious accumulation in humans.
    Perhaps the solution then, is to hyper accelerate/filter blood flow, rather than increase immune response aggressiveness and the resulting inflamation.
    Thus unfit people die early. Heart disease through blockages and/or reduced flow rates, with materials that arent flushed and accumulate in the system instead.
    Basically, we need to flush the turds from the blood, instead of being left with something that looks like a fatberg in a sewer.

    • @anim8torfiddler871
      @anim8torfiddler871 Рік тому +4

      It seems to be a VERY COMMON feature of pathogenic microbes to have a fatal sensitivity to excursions to a metabolic temperature regime that the Host can tolerate longer than the _bug._ I'm guessing the Fever response would NOT be so nearly universal if there were many more heat-tolerant microbes. Seems to suggest they evolved and spend a lot of time in colder environments.

    • @sneakydragon2352
      @sneakydragon2352 11 місяців тому +4

      @@anim8torfiddler871 temperature isn't only an offensive weapon, it's also a support weapon, a lot of our defence mechanisms work better when in high temperatures, fevers don't usually get rid of a cold by themselves, fevers help our immune system work better.
      As for "evolved in colder environments" argument, not necessarily it's a lot easier to "resist" cold than it is to resist heat, as when a cell/virus is in a cold (sometimes freezing) environment, it slows down the production of proteins and remains inert for a long time, while if its exposed to heat/radiation it simply starts to die because the radiation/heat damages its internal structure and delicate protein-production mechanisms

    • @anim8torfiddler871
      @anim8torfiddler871 11 місяців тому +1

      @@sneakydragon2352 thanks for amplifying the information.

    • @ouknow1446
      @ouknow1446 11 місяців тому

      In another words heat up which is why fevers are often a reaction to infection.

    • @zoeydeu2261
      @zoeydeu2261 9 місяців тому +1

      In my family we do the opposite (not running). If a viral infection is taking place, we rest/sleep and sweat it out by covering ourselves with blankets to quickly increase the fever - up to a certain point, so it doesn't cause heatstroke/brain damage - to cook the virus. The rest is so the body can focus on fighting the infection, and sleep helps with recovery. If done early enough, we usually get well pretty fast.

  • @sciencefliestothemoon2305
    @sciencefliestothemoon2305 3 місяці тому

    Slight correction to fever in us.
    Fever is an increase in the metabolic rate, this also means metabolic pathways within the immunesystem are gearing up.
    Yes some infections are more susceptible to higher temperatures, but there are plenty who enjoy a good 40°C.

  • @UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana
    @UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana Рік тому +25

    It makes sense bats 🦇 would live long, because they physically cannot maintain large broods due to weight concerns. That means in order to have a lot of offspring, they *need* to live long, thus creating a massive selection pressure to gain de-aging adaptations.

    • @PastaAivo
      @PastaAivo 4 місяці тому +2

      Disease resistance could emerge in a similar way, since bats tend to live in fairly dense colonies and very poopy caves, so they'd sure need to be fairly resistant.

  • @anthonygrodecki7968
    @anthonygrodecki7968 11 місяців тому +1

    Thanks for your work very simplified which is good for me. I think some of this work could cross over to auto immune conditions which also have this inflammation factors.

  • @italucenaz
    @italucenaz Рік тому +5

    9:27 IT'S DIANE GUERRERO! I didn't know she made stock videos and images back then, but it does make sense since she would only become and actress at 24 and she had to start from somewhere

  • @tikaanipippin
    @tikaanipippin 11 місяців тому +1

    40C is not wildly deleterious for bacterial/viral pathogens. It however improves all elements of the mammalian immune response, from cellular response of macrophages to cytokine release.
    Optimum temperature for gut bacteria is about 37C
    Pathogens actually do better at about 40C, but use local resources at a greater rate, leaving them vulnerable to immune system action.

  • @PaulG.x
    @PaulG.x Рік тому +19

    3:51 I was not aware organisms use POSIX operating systems! Systemd too!
    It makes sense though. The other OS would result in a blue screen of death immediately after birth and evolution would have eliminated it aeons ago.

    • @stevendorries
      @stevendorries Рік тому +4

      Technically NT based Windows is POSIX compliant too, POSIX compliance doesn’t guarantee stability. See also, feinting goats who are clearly running XP Pro without any service packs

    • @ps.2
      @ps.2 11 місяців тому

      Eh, neither sudo nor systemctl are POSIX commands. Maybe you meant to say Linux?

  • @anthonycade9034
    @anthonycade9034 6 місяців тому

    The diversity of mammals on our earth is astounding. From flying creatures to enormous swimmers of the oceans. I wonder how many other planets have evolved mammals and what would they look like. It’d be really cool if when we die if we get to explore these questions.

  • @markmuller7962
    @markmuller7962 Рік тому +6

    One theory says that having less predators increases the evolutionary advantages of staying fertile for longer and later in life which otherwise makes little sense given that it/he would die early anyways being catched by predators.
    Humans should have a much longer life span then we currently have but apparently War has replaced predators historically/anthropologically speaking

    • @jBiz91
      @jBiz91 Рік тому +5

      I recently watched a video on the biggest fence in Australia. The baby kangaroos on the side with less predators began to grow a lot slower than the kangaroos on the side with predators and I'm sure it said they was giving birth later in life. Also after world war 2 during the baby boom over 70% of births were male which has to be true otherwise I would have more than zero girlfriends 😂

    • @markmuller7962
      @markmuller7962 Рік тому +1

      @@jBiz91 So interesting, yes it's very possible that the biology of pregnancy is heavily affected by what the mother see around her environment, actually I remember a documentary where it was scientifically confirmed on many traits of the child, the doc wasn't about gender ratio but other characteristics

    • @b.a.erlebacher1139
      @b.a.erlebacher1139 Рік тому +2

      ​@@jBiz91Great story, but not true. As usual, about equal numbers of boys and girls were born after WWII. The only places you see a disproportionate number of boys to girls is places that allow people to select for sex by abortion or infanticide. China is an example.

    • @b.a.erlebacher1139
      @b.a.erlebacher1139 Рік тому +2

      Humans already have more than twice the lifespan of other mammals of the same size. You can see this in the charts shown in this video.

    • @jBiz91
      @jBiz91 Рік тому +1

      @@b.a.erlebacher1139 Spikes in the number of boys typically happen at the end of wars. This phenomenon has been dubbed the “returning soldier effect”. It can be seen after both world wars, when more babies were born and even more of them than usual were boys. Also human lifespan has doubled in the last 200 years thanks to mecidine, clean water and technology which other mammals don't have access to

  • @monicabello1962
    @monicabello1962 11 місяців тому +1

    Wow, so Batty, the bat living the cave of my backyard will live longer than me. I love him❤ Every year I can't wait spring to see him again.

  • @blengi
    @blengi Рік тому +5

    you'd think any cellular ability to inhibit dna changes due to high virus loads bats might have evolved, would also have the effect of making integrity of normal dna information and consequentially other cellular processes much more robust and hence likely less susceptible to the effects of aging too...

    • @ps.2
      @ps.2 11 місяців тому

      Key word "evolved," though. Any mechanism that inhibits DNA damage _also inhibits evolution._ This is not always an evolutionary advantage.

    • @blengi
      @blengi 11 місяців тому

      @@ps.2 perhaps, but we know different tissue types can have different rates of mutation/viral introgression and therefore different tissues can be more of less robust in terms of dna alteration. Such that reasonably the robustness of most of the body versus gametes carrying forth the evolutionary variation doesn't have to be 100% in lock step. Surely there is a statisitical signature in the dna of whether this is the case, be interesting if anyone knows.

  • @enduraman1
    @enduraman1 11 місяців тому +1

    It’s not just a high temperature but the temperature variability that is Key. Bat’s go from a low body temperature to a high body temperature. The same thing goes with heart rate variability. Bats have a huge difference between low heart rate and high heart rate.

  • @richardkudrna7503
    @richardkudrna7503 Рік тому +8

    There was human testing on hyperthermia as cure. The first subject died then the researchers learned to adjust the ph change in blood and increased head (brain cooling). It showed some cancer death and considerable virus death.

    • @wolf-xf6hf
      @wolf-xf6hf Рік тому

      No fucking shot researchers just killed a dude

  • @black5f
    @black5f 7 місяців тому

    Very interesting. We have Pipistrelles flying round the garden at night eating tons of midges and other insects. We can learn so much from these little critters. We also have badgers (UK)? Badgers are interesting, critters, evolved before us, Neanderthals used to hunt them. They evolved before Mammoths. And yet despite constant persecution, are still foraging around in my garden today and pretty much immune to everything. The last of the mega fauna.

  • @ibenrubbinov5463
    @ibenrubbinov5463 Рік тому +4

    Thumperfitz, Iben's wife, here. Thanks for the fabulous video!!! Ya' know, bat's wings are basically seriously webbed hands making them the best mammalian cheerleaders as every time they fly by, they give you 2 thumbs up, so Awesome or bats!!!!!

  • @gregorypkampwirth8852
    @gregorypkampwirth8852 11 місяців тому +2

    Bravo Dr Miles for this amazing video on bats, my favorite animal ever 🦇 most people fear them, but I love 💕 and thank them for their service to humanity!! They're bug killers and bring us order to our world 🌍 in ways that we don't understand!! Many also believe strongly that they are deadly disease 🦠 carriers, but I think not, so again I totally thank you for your valuable information on them and I hope that people will understand that bats 🦇 are our best friends and NOT OUR ENEMIES!!! 😊

  • @FabianBarajas
    @FabianBarajas Рік тому +4

    Can I just say I really appreciate the sudo systemctl command you put on screen. Nice!

    • @akostadinov
      @akostadinov Рік тому +2

      yeah, I upvoted the video for this reason

    • @ayanned
      @ayanned Рік тому

      same

  • @Gecko17k
    @Gecko17k 11 місяців тому +1

    Very interesting.
    Looks like people are working hard to understand these bat benefits.
    It's rather impressive, that lifespan!

  • @TheSkystrider
    @TheSkystrider Рік тому +10

    Great video Dr Ben Miles! Very informative and amazing! Seeing those cute bats makes me want one as a pet 😂
    I live in Manitoba and a long time ago i heard that one way to help the environment is to buy/make a bat house to help bats live in the city since they are a cornerstone species. Would a slightly higher city population of bats increase the spread of diseases amongst animals and humans or is it such a low population of bats already that increasing it by 50% wouldnt change disease spread but would help nature with the other ways that diverse ecosystems benefit?

  • @tamarrajames3590
    @tamarrajames3590 4 місяці тому

    I love bats…every one of them. The Flying-Foxes are so clever and curious, and their nightly work of pollinating trees, and spreading seeds ensure the survival of rain forests. Micro-bats have such vivid personalities for their size…lots of battitude is always needed. I have never met a bat I didn’t fall in love with instantly. Thank you for this little peek into their world.🖤🇨🇦

  • @danielwitham1791
    @danielwitham1791 Рік тому +25

    Cov from bats?
    Maybe pre bioengineering...

    • @tim_koch14
      @tim_koch14 Рік тому +2

      Maybe he confused SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2. Not very probable though.

    • @dylaninnes8541
      @dylaninnes8541 Рік тому +2

      Lol yup

    • @wolf-xf6hf
      @wolf-xf6hf Рік тому +1

      Thats sars cov 2 not covid 19 two different viruses

    • @tim_koch14
      @tim_koch14 11 місяців тому

      @@wolf-xf6hf Covid-19 is what they called the illness caused by SARS-CoV-2.

    • @deavman
      @deavman 8 місяців тому

      @@wolf-xf6hf
      From the WHO:
      Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) is an infectious disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Most people infected with the virus will experience mild to moderate ...

  • @YVO007
    @YVO007 9 місяців тому +1

    Well done, Thank you Side note: There are no more wide forests in the UK.

  • @michaelharding4556
    @michaelharding4556 Рік тому +4

    Love the cute dogs to illustrate mammals 😂

  • @ropi5103
    @ropi5103 8 місяців тому

    Fascinating video and also highlights the respect we all need to have for nature, for any species.

  • @hherpdderp
    @hherpdderp Рік тому +10

    No wonder Ozzy is immune to everything.

    • @boke75
      @boke75 Рік тому +1

      Except maybe to brain damage. 😂

    • @ophirbactrius8285
      @ophirbactrius8285 7 місяців тому +1

      "Welcome to the Bat Cave" 😎🦇🦹🏻‍♂️

    • @_Nobody_Special
      @_Nobody_Special 4 місяці тому

      @@boke75No brain no pain.

  • @beakhammer2638
    @beakhammer2638 11 місяців тому

    Great video. Probably the most important and interesting one I've seen for a long time. I have been a medical doctor for 39 years. Stop doctors giving kids anti pyretics frequently. Thanks from Ireland.

  • @DrMaddy101
    @DrMaddy101 Рік тому +9

    Is the miracle cream that comes from this called Benjamin Bat-on? Like Benjamin.. Button.. I'll show myself out

  • @stephaneclerc667
    @stephaneclerc667 Рік тому

    First vid from you and I'm already subscribing, good job doc 😉

  • @VRnamek
    @VRnamek Рік тому +6

    I thought it was from drinking blood and hibernating in a coffin

  • @laurieparis2203
    @laurieparis2203 11 місяців тому +1

    Fascinating! So great to learn something completely new .

  • @stevendorries
    @stevendorries Рік тому +5

    2:17 was that Dracula: Dead and Loving it?

  • @brianwnc8168
    @brianwnc8168 Рік тому

    The easiest way to get rid of senescent cells is to learn about how to take Fisetin in the proper way for high absorption while also taking the amount that is a threshold dose to activate the natural clearing of senescent cells.

  • @WillPower311
    @WillPower311 11 місяців тому +5

    41c = 105.8F

  • @jibberoverjava
    @jibberoverjava Місяць тому

    The feverish body temperature caused by the extreme heart rate is primary to keeping the wings warm, not to immunity which is only an affect. Bats fly in cold night temperatures (even in deserts) for long hours, many miles. If you understand aircraft flight, this will make sense to you. Even though the bat's body heats up like a furnace, the heat it generates is offed by not only the cold night air but also by it's own flapping wings. It's not energy just being built up, but it's being offed like a fan an a heater so it's a circulation... the blood being chilled in the wings is traveling back to its body, and blood heated in the body is being sent to the wings otherwise the bat would grow cold, stiffen and fall, possibly die. All winged animals heat up to keep their wings warm during flight. Sit infront of a strong fan for a couple hours and see how cold you get, especially your arms/limbs/digits. Things are simple not complicated. To find the accurate connection between things and if there is any at all you have to think simple. Now you can see that the bat's body getting hot is directly and primarily for the purpose of keeping it's limbs warm against the cooling affect of air against its flapping wings and body. As you said it's heart rate subsides at rest. So the connection of the high body temperature on it's immunity is secondary... an effect or result of the primarily. Now you can explore the immunity issue with more clarity, not confusing the two as one. This creates a flow of theory or a direction like a chain of events. Things are simple not complicated. That simplicity shines a bright light on the incredible design of living and inanimate creation.

  • @maybehuman4
    @maybehuman4 11 місяців тому +4

    So that's why BATMAN doesn't age 😆

    • @n.henzler50
      @n.henzler50 9 місяців тому

      Unless you count Dark Knight Returns, where he's 50 years old and looks 80. Given what he puts himself through, that's probably accurate.

    • @cooliipie
      @cooliipie 5 місяців тому

      ​@@n.henzler50
      That's just a movie, not the comic

  • @OldieBugger
    @OldieBugger Місяць тому

    I and my mother and 1 of my sons, we rarely have a flu or something like it. My best guess for this is that our immune response is so low that we don't even notice most of these diseases. Well, I suffered from SARS-COV2, twice. I had a cough that lasted a week, both times but no fever.

  • @marknasia5293
    @marknasia5293 Рік тому +4

    so they were looking for the fountain of youth, it escaped the lab and 2020-2023 we all got screwed over, loss of freedom etc.

    • @knivescom
      @knivescom Рік тому

      They were not looking for the fountain of youth.
      They were looking to kill us off.

  • @mecahhannah
    @mecahhannah 8 місяців тому

    Awesome as always thanks ❤

  • @troyclayton
    @troyclayton Рік тому +5

    Having a thumbnail with false information is among the fastest ways for a channel I've never seen to get put on the 'do not recommend channel' list.

  • @becerraluisc
    @becerraluisc Рік тому +1

    Interesting video, loved the systemclt command 😅

  • @niteshades_promise
    @niteshades_promise 11 місяців тому +65

    Ok now lets stop messing with bat viruses in military labs🤐🍻

    • @crocop2o12
      @crocop2o12 9 місяців тому

      No need to worry about that, they already made GX_P2V , the deadliest virus ever with 100% death rate, so if you hear about something like when sarscov2 started, it means they released it

    • @CS.AtheistChannel.VoteBidenAOC
      @CS.AtheistChannel.VoteBidenAOC 9 місяців тому

      No way. Bats r cool

    • @DutchmanAmsterdam
      @DutchmanAmsterdam 8 місяців тому

      Too much money and power in it. Ask Fauci and Xi, although they tend to avoid honesty.

    • @ichigokurosaki2838
      @ichigokurosaki2838 8 місяців тому +5

      Your comment needs to be pinned 📌.

    • @alpacaofthemountain8760
      @alpacaofthemountain8760 7 місяців тому

      Found the fool

  • @SickofTired
    @SickofTired 11 місяців тому

    It's amazing what people can go on and on about if they ignore the lack of science surrounding "viruses"

  • @blktarockstar818
    @blktarockstar818 Рік тому +22

    When this medicine is available there is 0 chance poor people get access

    • @jamesricker3997
      @jamesricker3997 9 місяців тому

      For a little while.
      Profit is a huge motivation

    • @Joshua-pr9vg
      @Joshua-pr9vg 8 місяців тому

      Well civilization wont provide them food and shelter so why would they receive medicine?

    • @MrGoodaches
      @MrGoodaches 5 місяців тому +2

      Not just the poor, but the working class and middle class too. The privileged class and their grifting minions have always looked at economic and social policies from the standpoint that we should be satisfied with subsistence wages and just die off whenever our health or age makes 60 hour work weeks untenable.
      Not every ultra wealthy person has such a predatory perspective of less privileged citizens. Some understand very well the historical correlation of prosperous middle classes with innovation, economic growth, and social stability. The ones that aren’t grubbing for another $million next week do realize that an equitable society will long term result in more wealth opportunity for them and their descendants.
      But, if you care to see public policy mandates that will devalue middle class workers to serfdom, and eliminate safeguards on natural resources with intention to provide accelerated wealth growth for a big segment of the privileged class, read Project 2025.

  • @waxon2
    @waxon2 Рік тому +2

    Thank you Dr Ben for such an excellent and informative video :) Thank you also for mentioning how continued habitat destruction is a primary driver of extinction threats. Let us learn to respect all life and respect the unique gifts each species has to offer.

  • @khizar511
    @khizar511 4 місяці тому +8

    People are 100 percent sure that God doesn't exist, but they don't fully understand the bats yet.

    • @TheOuroboros84
      @TheOuroboros84 3 місяці тому +8

      Yes, genetics are *that* complicated... We don't need a man in the sky to justify it's complexity

    • @LacayoDe
      @LacayoDe 3 місяці тому

      Doesn't make sense to explain complexity with something even more complex

    • @X862go
      @X862go 3 місяці тому

      Yeah, evaluation is complicated

  • @EannaButler
    @EannaButler 3 місяці тому

    3:47 😀
    Great video, I like your style! Subbed...

  • @edmanr2010
    @edmanr2010 3 місяці тому

    I am not going to lie listening to the part about body temperature reminded me a lot of the Wim Hof cold training.

  • @borndeafin1ear
    @borndeafin1ear Рік тому +1

    How does the immune response processes in bats relate to consuming 2000-5000 mg of lauric acid on a daily basis for humans? Assuming lauric acid or monolaurin creates an environment that makes it hard for infectious entities from building up in the body, then wouldn't this reduce the amount of inflammation entities in the body that are also destructive within the body? If so, then could using coconut oil, or lauric acid supplements, might help slow our own aging? Also, could the body's reaction to such infectious entities or other substances be a big part of the real reason for other conditions, like high cholesterol and similar things?

  • @WiseSloth1978
    @WiseSloth1978 9 місяців тому

    All these discoveries are great. Unfortunately we still lack many tools to achieve viable therapies. There is so much to discover! What a time to be young!

  • @MrSwider87
    @MrSwider87 11 місяців тому

    So what if its a click bait title... Look at all the internet know-it-alls. This man provided a lot of great knowledge and insight, Cant anyone just say thanks great video? THANKS DR BEN GREAT VIDEO.

  • @shreeshdixit3391
    @shreeshdixit3391 11 місяців тому +1

    Insect diet or fruit diet along with flight adaptations like birds is behind their longivity 😊

  • @paulwright8378
    @paulwright8378 Рік тому

    Like when you get a cold you gotta sweat it out by doing some gardening or exercise to heat up your body so much that you get over the cold quicker

  • @mojeimja
    @mojeimja 11 місяців тому

    There were documentary on this topic in 2013, there are some guy who invented a special virus for humans, that allows for a controllable short-term body overheating with effects similar to those described in this video and more. I forgot the name of the movie but the virus was called "extremis" or something like it.

  • @anim8torfiddler871
    @anim8torfiddler871 11 місяців тому +1

    This is one Post where I MUST Compliment the folks Commenting --> Browsing through the Comments has been both Highly Entertaining, and Unusually Informative and Educational. Got a bunch of Erudite and Articulate smarty pants commenters carping, taking pot shots at the host and at each other, but with reasonable civility. It's not often I'm inspired to go do some research on physics or chemistry or math to remind self of some equation or name or principle referenced in someone's comments. Putting Stretch marks on the Existing Stretch marks, while enjoying occasional Belly laughs. Thanks a lot!!!

  • @VTPSTTU
    @VTPSTTU 6 місяців тому

    Thanks for the video.
    I'm not sure how the bats can have their body temperatures go up that much without cooking their little brains inside their heads. Is there something about the circulatory systems that would offer protection? If they have less circulation to their brains, maybe they can recycle blood through their big ears and release heat that way. If the ears are constantly functioning as radiators, maybe the circulation can keep their brains cool.

  • @basantitanga3631
    @basantitanga3631 4 місяці тому +1

    Like Batman said
    Whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

  • @user-p4bl04
    @user-p4bl04 Рік тому

    Its MORBIN' TIME.
    Great vid, quite insightful.

  • @Abyss-Will
    @Abyss-Will 8 місяців тому

    I think salamanders, tritons and similars are also pretty small animals that can live for decades and they also seem to have some amazing bodily functions that allow them to regrow whole limbs !

  • @THR-zf6ti
    @THR-zf6ti 6 місяців тому

    Very interesting video - real science instead of clickbait nonsense without real information!

  • @stevesloan6775
    @stevesloan6775 Рік тому

    Cool video!
    How bats fragment their DNA and survive is amazing.
    The thing to remember is that probability will say X amounts of fragmented DNA will fuse.
    Is it a bird is it a plane, no it’s a flying CRISPR.
    🤨🙃😑😟

  • @anamariacarvalho6738
    @anamariacarvalho6738 9 днів тому

    Hi Ben, good afternoon

  • @RolandoGarza
    @RolandoGarza 11 місяців тому +1

    3:50 kudos for including a properly written Linux command

    • @girmo2676
      @girmo2676 2 місяці тому +1

      was scrolling to this comment :D

  • @AbdulSoomro-kj5lt
    @AbdulSoomro-kj5lt 11 місяців тому

    Dr Miles you are a super genius! Thank you for this video!

  • @JamesIIIPearson
    @JamesIIIPearson 2 місяці тому

    I think we may need to hold off on the sars-cov-2 connection for now. We can easily prove sars-1 and mers as well
    note: I'm not saying the relative of sars-2 didn't originate in bats, but I don't think we have solid and uncorrupted data for bat to intermediate host to human

  • @mrhappy4521
    @mrhappy4521 3 місяці тому

    Neet doc the pic of the lions in the tree about killed me with laughter!

  • @regisdumoulin
    @regisdumoulin 11 місяців тому +1

    Bats are awesome, I so wanted one as a pet when I was a child! Sadly I was never able to convince my parents this was a good idea 😂

  • @andrevandenheever6740
    @andrevandenheever6740 11 місяців тому

    Maybe by studying long distance runners we can shed more light on the effect of prolonged raised heartbeat and temperature on our own biology.

  • @marcvalade94
    @marcvalade94 9 місяців тому

    What if their resilience have to do with the way they sleep or because they do in the day time, or fully surrounded by air. They have been designed to have a warm blood at night when it is colder, and still be ok sleeping fully exposed in the day time when it is warmer. For heart rate is not the only specific trait of bats.

  • @TheGroundSloth
    @TheGroundSloth 4 місяці тому

    It was mentioned that when bats increase their core temperature, they do cellular and DNA damage to themselves. However, they have increased ability to check/repair this damage.
    My understanding of how viruses work is that they send their own DNA into the cells and reprogram the cells with embedded foreign DNA.
    I wonder if the bat's increased DNA repair and checkpoint system undoes any virus tampering or at least lessens it. This along with the increased temperature degrading viruses already existing or being made in the body.

  • @ladykoiwolfe
    @ladykoiwolfe 9 місяців тому

    This was an interesting video, but that gene silencing sounds super interesting. As someone with at least two genetic disorders (epilepsy and fibromyalgia), I'm very interested in seeing how this develops.