Thanks, Dan, for this excellent video. Thranduil is a fascinating character. I think it is amazing that he could maintain his realm that whole time without a ring of power. It seems that Lothlorien and Imladris faded quickly after the Rings of Power lost their power. I wonder if Thranduil was able to maintain his Woodland Realm deep into the Fourth Age.
Yay! A new VoG video! Feels like forever since I saw one of your masterful videos! Man, I gotta go back and watch every one of your Silmarillion videos again! Hope you've been well and you had a Happy Easter my friend. You deserve the very best X)
The context strung together like this it's even more ironic that someone who reacted so aggressively to the dwarves it would be their son who became fast friends with one and mend some patches. It also makes me wonder just how deep this 'hatred' between the two is really still alive and well and how much is just conjecture from a lot of the interaction we see in 'modern' day coming from Thranduil and his heir who would have been heavily influenced if only from being raised in the same area by his father. As it's clear that while there are historical differences/tiffs /perspectives on events there has also been times of collaboration between the peoples. Thranduil also serves as an example of the variety in elves as others we have seen, elrond and galadriel, be quite warm, welcoming, and lacking in the element of greed being shown as those who provide for others and resist temptations. You know, it is known that all elves go west... but I wonder if on reuniting if each receives a sort of 'clean slate' or if old grudges still persist... Thanks as always for wonderful content.
When elves go to Valinor, they can heal from wounds, physical/mental/emotional. But they can't change their personality unless they're willing to work on it. If they are stubborn and selfish and have a grudge against another elf, that grudge is still going to be there when they get to Valinor. Knowing the consequences if the elf were to act on this grudge, especially in Valinor, he/she would have to just avoid that person and live their own lives or learn how to get over that grudge. Of course, like humans, elves can work on themselves and make themselves better. If they are horribly selfish, they can work on to not be as selfish, though this trait may never go completely away as it could be a part of who they are and their personality. One example I can think of is Feanor. He was exceedingly spoiled and selfish and self-centered. After spending thousands of years in the Halls of Mandos, witnessing his sons joining him there and seeing their griefs and sorrows from what they had done for the oath he forced them to take, and possibly knowing about his wife's sorrows he caused her, he had plenty of time to think and work on himself. He probably resisted for a long time before finally realizing he was most definitely not getting out of there. He could either stay miserable, or work on himself and become a better person. When the last battle for Middle Earth happens, we see this change in him. He actually surrenders the Silmarils and gives them to the Valar to be broken. In the Silmarillion, he started the whole crap fest that went down in the first age because he refused to give up the Silmarils. Then the Silmarils got stolen, he forced his sons to swear a horrible oath, rebelled against the Valar and left Valinor, and we all know the rest.
No reaccionó agresivamente, reaccionó dentro de lo esperado hacia alguien que invade su reino y se porta de manera altanera y agresiva ante el rey de dicho Reyno. Yo leí en The Hobbit a un Thranduil muy paciente hacia una raza que había hecho tanto mal a su pueblo (Reyno de Doriath). Cuando los enanos fueron a Rivendel llegaron con el propio Gandalf, obvio que hiban a ser bien tratados, no hiban a desconfiar de ellos. Años después cuando Gimli llegó a Lothlorien estaba en compañia de Legolas ( un elfo, pariente de los de Lothlorien) y Aragon( que ya antes había estado alli), aun así desconfiaron al inicio de Gimli siendo un único enano, el mismo Celeborn lo hizo; en cuanto a Galadriel, ella no sufrió tan directamente el dolor de las perdidas de Doriath como si lo hicieron los Sindar, además de que podía "ver" las intenciones de los otros lo cual es de gran ayuda para estar más tranquila o alerta ante gente nueva.
It's interesting that elves, being naturally immortal, can still carry grudges thousands of years later because for them the events happened in their lifetime. Thus, we end up with the dislike the elves of the Woodland Realm have for the dwarves, even though all the dwarves involved in the fall of Doriath died long ago. We also get the foolish, premature charge of the elves of Greenwood and Lórien because of their dislike of the Noldor and their unwillingness to follow the order of Gil-Galad. The result of that bit of stupidity is that the respective armies of those two kingdoms were shattered.
tbh the idea of Amdir and Oropher charging ahead unprovoced during the battle of Dagorlad is so foolish that it becomes ridiculous, in the sense of it happened mostly because the author wanted it. I like the nastiness of the follow-up consequences though: the demoralised remnants of the Sindar-Silvan force encouraged the orc band that hid (for like 7 years, lol) in the vales of Anduin into attacking Isildur as he was on his way to Imladris. Regarding the feud: time does not heal grievances per se, we all experienced that. And I actually have some doubts that the divisive events referred to in The Hobbit are the same as in the Silmarillion. I tend to consider them as recycled material yet in-universe a different event than the slaying of Thingol. It is a very good example of how unfinished the legendarium was at the time of Tolkien's death.
Lo que se tenían entre elfos y enanos era desconfianza, habían pasado muchas cosas entre ellos. Los elfos de Doriath habían sufrido la muerte de su Rey, que estaba solo ante todos esos enanos, habían sufrido el saqueo de su pueblo. Era una desconfianza hacia esa raza, no de los individuos como unidad para solo olvidarlo. Por eso Tolkien atribuye características al describir las razas, dando cualidades y defectos. Por ejemplo los noldor venidos de Valinor eran hábiles de manos y mente, pero eran orgullosos, violentos e incluso podían llegar a ser crueles, los enanos eran buenos guerreros, grandes herreros y también codiciosos y otros adjetivos que eran negativos escritos en The Hobbit. Para que la confianza se reparé tiene que pasar cosas, y eso hizo Tolkien, hizo que Gimli y Legolas pasaran por un periodo de interacción en el cual enfrentaron juntos muchas dificultades, cosa que termino haciendo que se conozcan realmente y esto lo utilizo el escritor para reparar la confianza perdida entre el pueblo de los enanos y elfos. La confianza una vez perdida es difícil repararla, requiere de trabajo, interacción, reconocerse nuevamente.
@@Crafty_Spirit You can look at our history and find any number of really bad and obvious military blunders, including some caused by envy of someone on their own side.
Thanks, Dan, for this excellent video. Thranduil is a fascinating character. I think it is amazing that he could maintain his realm that whole time without a ring of power. It seems that Lothlorien and Imladris faded quickly after the Rings of Power lost their power. I wonder if Thranduil was able to maintain his Woodland Realm deep into the Fourth Age.
Great video! The woodland realm has such an underrated history- what I love most is how much the second and third ages mirror the first.
Yay! A new VoG video! Feels like forever since I saw one of your masterful videos! Man, I gotta go back and watch every one of your Silmarillion videos again! Hope you've been well and you had a Happy Easter my friend. You deserve the very best X)
The context strung together like this it's even more ironic that someone who reacted so aggressively to the dwarves it would be their son who became fast friends with one and mend some patches. It also makes me wonder just how deep this 'hatred' between the two is really still alive and well and how much is just conjecture from a lot of the interaction we see in 'modern' day coming from Thranduil and his heir who would have been heavily influenced if only from being raised in the same area by his father. As it's clear that while there are historical differences/tiffs /perspectives on events there has also been times of collaboration between the peoples. Thranduil also serves as an example of the variety in elves as others we have seen, elrond and galadriel, be quite warm, welcoming, and lacking in the element of greed being shown as those who provide for others and resist temptations.
You know, it is known that all elves go west... but I wonder if on reuniting if each receives a sort of 'clean slate' or if old grudges still persist...
Thanks as always for wonderful content.
When elves go to Valinor, they can heal from wounds, physical/mental/emotional. But they can't change their personality unless they're willing to work on it. If they are stubborn and selfish and have a grudge against another elf, that grudge is still going to be there when they get to Valinor. Knowing the consequences if the elf were to act on this grudge, especially in Valinor, he/she would have to just avoid that person and live their own lives or learn how to get over that grudge. Of course, like humans, elves can work on themselves and make themselves better. If they are horribly selfish, they can work on to not be as selfish, though this trait may never go completely away as it could be a part of who they are and their personality.
One example I can think of is Feanor. He was exceedingly spoiled and selfish and self-centered. After spending thousands of years in the Halls of Mandos, witnessing his sons joining him there and seeing their griefs and sorrows from what they had done for the oath he forced them to take, and possibly knowing about his wife's sorrows he caused her, he had plenty of time to think and work on himself. He probably resisted for a long time before finally realizing he was most definitely not getting out of there. He could either stay miserable, or work on himself and become a better person. When the last battle for Middle Earth happens, we see this change in him. He actually surrenders the Silmarils and gives them to the Valar to be broken. In the Silmarillion, he started the whole crap fest that went down in the first age because he refused to give up the Silmarils. Then the Silmarils got stolen, he forced his sons to swear a horrible oath, rebelled against the Valar and left Valinor, and we all know the rest.
No reaccionó agresivamente, reaccionó dentro de lo esperado hacia alguien que invade su reino y se porta de manera altanera y agresiva ante el rey de dicho Reyno. Yo leí en The Hobbit a un Thranduil muy paciente hacia una raza que había hecho tanto mal a su pueblo (Reyno de Doriath).
Cuando los enanos fueron a Rivendel llegaron con el propio Gandalf, obvio que hiban a ser bien tratados, no hiban a desconfiar de ellos. Años después cuando Gimli llegó a Lothlorien estaba en compañia de Legolas ( un elfo, pariente de los de Lothlorien) y Aragon( que ya antes había estado alli), aun así desconfiaron al inicio de Gimli siendo un único enano, el mismo Celeborn lo hizo; en cuanto a Galadriel, ella no sufrió tan directamente el dolor de las perdidas de Doriath como si lo hicieron los Sindar, además de que podía "ver" las intenciones de los otros lo cual es de gran ayuda para estar más tranquila o alerta ante gente nueva.
Really interesting video to watch
Great video 🥰
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It's interesting that elves, being naturally immortal, can still carry grudges thousands of years later because for them the events happened in their lifetime. Thus, we end up with the dislike the elves of the Woodland Realm have for the dwarves, even though all the dwarves involved in the fall of Doriath died long ago. We also get the foolish, premature charge of the elves of Greenwood and Lórien because of their dislike of the Noldor and their unwillingness to follow the order of Gil-Galad. The result of that bit of stupidity is that the respective armies of those two kingdoms were shattered.
tbh the idea of Amdir and Oropher charging ahead unprovoced during the battle of Dagorlad is so foolish that it becomes ridiculous, in the sense of it happened mostly because the author wanted it.
I like the nastiness of the follow-up consequences though: the demoralised remnants of the Sindar-Silvan force encouraged the orc band that hid (for like 7 years, lol) in the vales of Anduin into attacking Isildur as he was on his way to Imladris.
Regarding the feud: time does not heal grievances per se, we all experienced that. And I actually have some doubts that the divisive events referred to in The Hobbit are the same as in the Silmarillion. I tend to consider them as recycled material yet in-universe a different event than the slaying of Thingol. It is a very good example of how unfinished the legendarium was at the time of Tolkien's death.
Lo que se tenían entre elfos y enanos era desconfianza, habían pasado muchas cosas entre ellos. Los elfos de Doriath habían sufrido la muerte de su Rey, que estaba solo ante todos esos enanos, habían sufrido el saqueo de su pueblo. Era una desconfianza hacia esa raza, no de los individuos como unidad para solo olvidarlo. Por eso Tolkien atribuye características al describir las razas, dando cualidades y defectos. Por ejemplo los noldor venidos de Valinor eran hábiles de manos y mente, pero eran orgullosos, violentos e incluso podían llegar a ser crueles, los enanos eran buenos guerreros, grandes herreros y también codiciosos y otros adjetivos que eran negativos escritos en The Hobbit. Para que la confianza se reparé tiene que pasar cosas, y eso hizo Tolkien, hizo que Gimli y Legolas pasaran por un periodo de interacción en el cual enfrentaron juntos muchas dificultades, cosa que termino haciendo que se conozcan realmente y esto lo utilizo el escritor para reparar la confianza perdida entre el pueblo de los enanos y elfos.
La confianza una vez perdida es difícil repararla, requiere de trabajo, interacción, reconocerse nuevamente.
@@Crafty_Spirit You can look at our history and find any number of really bad and obvious military blunders, including some caused by envy of someone on their own side.
@@istari0 True, the scenario e.g. has some similarities to battle of Watling street (Boudicca versus Romans)
Thanks dan
The coward who, born in Doraith in the first age, ran to Lindon and ran away to Mirkwood. Hid.
谢谢。
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