It is very difficult to admit “i was wrong.” It is harder still to admit “i was fooled.” The hardest is to admit “i was fooled; I helped to fool and harm others, including those I should have protected.”
My book The War on Gender is my go at taking down the agenda that is trying to fool people. I don't think people understand that. I agree with Stella on much of this, except that she makes it a blanket judgement and doesn't understand it was a real thing, transsexualism, which is being mocked by the transgenderists.
Spot on. But this is why doctors have a diagnostic process. They completely changed that ONLY for this one particular condition. The Gender Affirming Care model is completely non-scientific. By definition, it circumvents their usual imperative to assess a patient via taking a thorough history (and examination, where relevant) before running tests/investigations (where relevant). Doctors have collectively abdicated their duty of care in the name of this ideology and it is bordering on criminal, especially now in the face of all of this emerging evidence. This is why I blame the doctors for this disaster.
All of my friends are pro-trans and I feel so frustrated and condescended to when I bring up what is happening to (disproportionately gay) children. The assumption seems to be that I, a gay man, am ignorant and hateful when I say I don’t want these kids to be medicalised and have the best chance in life for loving relationships and healthy bodies… and I’m being told this by straight people. It’s such an insidious, shitty thing. Thank you for the work you both do. The sunk-cost fallacy runs so deep not only for the parents who trans’d their kids, but those who think trans is the new civil rights frontier and are completely silo’d with the left-leaning content they consume. I don’t know what it will take.
Quite fasconating from an anthropologist point of view. The Trans-ideology zeitgeist is right here, right now, and its in the air. Give it five or ten years and we here in the Anglosphere will look back on this chapter of human history in the same way as we look back in disbelief on strongly held beliefs from the past, like witchcraft which was the zeitgeist of it's time! There is no biological or scientific basis for witchcraft or believers in a flat earth, neither is there any scientific proof in Trans-ideology, for its a belief system, and just like a religion you either believe and subscribe to it ... or you don't. I don't.
I agree with all of this. And yet I find myself vilified as if I was grooming children for transition. People clearly never go into this so as to understand that serious transsexuals despise the whole 'Trans Rights' agenda. I wish people would engage without imagining in advance that they know what they are actually ignorant and prejudiced about.
The podcast Unspeakable Truth featured Andrew Sullivan about this issue. I'm using it to open the eyes of my liberal friends. While Andrew Sullivan is historically conservative, he has been outspoken about Trump and is an OG in fighting for gay marriage. Hard for my fellow liberal friends to discount him because of that. I really think if more of the LGB and "Be Kind" crowd understood the conflation that is occurring between the gay rights and trans right movements is harmful, more people would be against GAC. It's called "Andrew Sullivan on Where Trans Activism and Gay Rights Collide" it was cast about 10 months ago.
@@CPCA_88 What most people also don't understand is that 'trans activism' has very little if anything to do with actual transsexuals and is a parasitic mockery created by anarcho-leftists who want to cause chaos.
This is why I’m not as optimistic as many others that the trans craze is going to start dying down anytime soon. Too many people - from individuals to institutions to society as a whole - have invested everything they have in the issue and burned all bridges behind them, and now there is no ”face-saving” of turning back.
@@goodkady That's a very hard thing for most people to admit though. The subconscious "reasoning" seems to go something like this: "If this were a lie, then only an idiot would believe it. But I'M NOT AN IDIOT. And I DID BELIEVE IT. Therefore it can't be a lie."
Could a new campaign of sorts be started "Look forward in health" or something more catching, that suggests really forgiving and moving past ill information and see the children and their concerned family members in need and finding a way to allow them save-face or move on with healthier horizons without shame?
@@bjartefoshaug7486 hey then maybe Elon saying he was tricked wasn’t so cockamamie after all. I mean, if a multi billionaire genius could be tricked by a bunch of quacks, then we all can be tricked and our faces are saved.
I'm not as optimistic only because it's a perfect pathway to destroy the rights of women, which humanity has never, ever, ever been in favor of for ANY significant period of time. You look back at the history of the human race, and women have been cattle for 100% of the time. Our rights are fragile as a soap bubble, and we refuse to see that.
My best friend is a gay guy, he’s been pro-trans for years. He never heard of the Cass Report until I brought it up to him. I explained to him about that and what happened to jazz Jennings and the surgery they aired on TV, he was blown. He does slowly seem to be realising that there are glaring issues going on here.
Ironic. One of my old good friends was a gay man, from Irish Catholic family, with dad who loves him despite their worldview difference. Anyway, back in 2008 he warned me against using preferred pronouns for a deranged "transman" who was stalking a female friend of mine. He pointed out one can disagree and respect a person's dignity but uphold your boundaries. His father loved him, they were tight but surely he was not going to affirm his sexuality and he wasn't going to stop being gay for his dad. They had a worldview difference but respect for each other. The deranged woman on the other hand required complete buy in from others. Last I heard in 09-10 this woman was not doing well on testosterone. Like not at all. Next time I see him I gotta ask if he ever changed his no preferred pronouns policy. I highly doubt it.
23:27 this reminds me of the neverending "we need more research to show whether or not trans women have an unfair advantage" when we already have mountains of evidence that males are more athletic than females.
That's the left wing's version of "we need more research into global warming." Only one side gets accused of science denial, but both sides do it. It's sickening.
And the cognitive dissonance among some gender critical women, who recognize that fact, and yet continue to believe that female professional athletes like Megan Rapinoe and Caitlin Clark deserve "equal pay" to their objectively superior male counterparts.
The fact that every episode you have produced from the beginning of your podcast has been extremely is interesting and pertinent is evidence that there are far too many layers to this for it to go away anytime soon.
Thank you so much for this. As parents we are here, dancing a razor’s edge between delaying so she can grow up, but having her hate us. Thank you for being that voice of rationality that I need in keeping up this dance.
This must be so challenging. We have no evidence that Puberty blockers used inappropriately (I.e to halt normal puberty instead of its intended use for precocious puberty) actually delays puberty. In practice, it appears to arrest puberty and I worry these children will never mentally develop appropriately. Many parents have been down the same road and many have been able to save not only their children but their relationship with their children (it’s harder once your children are legal adults or old enough to emancipate themselves)
As the other commenter said, it must be so extremely hard to balance this. After everything I’ve read, watched, etc. let your child “hate” you. Majority of kids desist. It’s better for your child to “hate” you now, than hate you later after realizing they’re not actually trans and have made a huge, irreversible mistake. Sending love and strength ❤
It’s a “tightrope marathon”. You are not alone in watchful waiting. My daughter finally desisted after 4 really rough years of non-affirming. Strongly recommend getting her into a hobby offline or some outdoor activity that connects her with her body as a tool, rather than an identity. Science is on our side, we will win.
I recommend researching Gabrielle Clark. I just heard her story and she makes a lot of good points. She's a desistance coach and helped her young daughter.
I'm totally with Sasha on this. The vast majority of parents who eventually do support transition for their children--even for children who are technically adults and began cross-sex hormones at 18 or older--didn't come to that decision lightly. In a sense, they had to persuade themselves that transition was the only option available. Imagine going through all of that--for nine years!--and then your kid comes back to you and says they were wrong. Suddenly, all of those warning lights in your brain start blipping, and you realize that you're at least partially responsible for that fact that your beloved child will never have children of their own or experience an orgasm. That's a lot to deal with, and one of the natural responses to regret is to deny it. That's why we're all so susceptible to the sunk-costs fallacy. We keep spending and spending and spending because if we stop, we admit that the original money spent was a total waste.
They tell kids, listen to who you really are (when the kid says they're trans). Then, when the kid says, actually, I'm not. THEN the parent says, no no no, (we've invested too much social capital in this) we know you better than anyone; you're trans.
I think we will get out of this the same way we got out of the recovered memories movement-when insurance stops covering it. When insurance stopped covering therapy for recovered memories, suddenly cases dropped drastically. There’s also parallels in that it was very hard to speak out against the recovered memories movement-“What do you mean you don’t believe this child was SA’d by her father?! Are you a monster?!” I do wonder how some of the skeptics of the recovered memories movement were able to speak out, we should learn from them.
I cant thank you ladies enough for all that you have been doing. My family began struggling with this about 3 years ago. My one regret is that I listened to the name change, I allowed it but have not affirmed it. I tried to call my child by his new name maybe 4 times. We have a long long story but I am still hopeful that I will be able to embrace my son again and call him by his name...and look in his eyes and see him instead of the emptiness I see now. My Christian believes also give me hope that even if I never embrace him again in this world that I will in the next. But your diligence and commitment to therapy first is empowering to me. It emboldened me to stand in front of this as much as I could and can. I agree we never see a true "end". But through calm, compassionate discourse we can change minds.
In order to avoid doubling down I have found a few things to be very instrumental in allowing people to change their minds. First they need to be committed to the outcome rather than the process. We want better lives for people who experience GD. If that is what we truly strive for than accepting new data on how to achieve that is easier. Also people need a pathway to gracefully change their minds and be allowed to do so from those across the aisle. And we need to practice and teach people how to be wrong. That it is ok to be wrong. We should model and share where and how we ourselves were wrong, how we changed our minds and that changing your mind does not mean giving up on the overarching goal. (Though the initial goal may change or evolve to get at what we truly believe is important) I have been in something of a cult and it was hard to leave. I was also a true believer of gender ideology. I was able to change my mind, learn and incorporate new information. I do not think I am particularly unique or special but I did spend a good deal of time and energy learning how to do these things. And one more thing many people think they lack the knowledge to come to these different conclusions. They think there is some information that the activist experts possess that they don’t know or understand. So they think there is more there than there really is and when drawing a conclusion they want to be generous to the side that seems more aligned with their broad values. Those who are concerned about youth transition and youth gender medicine will only appeal to those people of the message is we also want what is best for young people, we just get there in a different way. People concerned about compassion will never change their minds if it is framed as competing empathy between trans people and women. They may get that aspect eventually but that is not a persuasive argument when they are still firmly believing the TRA talking points.
I am against these 'TRAs' But there is more to transsexualism than their ideology I was never influenced. How could I have been as a child in the 1950s growing up in Africa? Entirely endogenous. I went through extensive and intensive therapy in an attempt to 'cure' myself in my twenties. I tried. Couldn't be done. And yet everybody seems to think that they know all about why I felt this way and what I should have done about it. Worked out fine in the end, facing and trusting myself. I'm just worried about the coming pogroms.
@@robertmarshall2502 I'm saying that as a child in the 1950s in Africa was not exposed to the kind of gender ideology which is rampant today. So not all 'trans' children have been influenced is what I am saying.
@@CosmicClaire99 Yes and that's dumb. Because we know that in that era young "effeminate" boys were still affected and if you did this 40 years ago then it sounds more like classic AGP
I saw Stella struggling with the language to apply Bertrand Russell's concept about the teapot. The bottom line is that the person making the claim has the burden of proof, not the one who questions the claim. In Russell's analogy, if you claim that there is a teapot, you have to provide evidence of the teapot (i.e., it isn't up to the person questioning to provide evidence there isn't). If you claim that the best course of action, when a young person questions their gender, is to medicalize them, then you have to provide evidence.
Obviously the whole gender ideology capture is a psy-op. But this is a case of an actual syndrome ~ Transsexualism ~ being captured by 'Queer' activists, infiltrated, weaponised and used against our society. If there was strict gatekeeping like there used to be this whole issue would go away, but it's promoted and you can't be critical of the agenda, even if like me you went through a properly triaged, monitored and measured process 40 year ago.
Once you open your eyes and see the reality, it’s a very lonely and threatening place to be in life. Unless your social group, and community, have also gone through the same eye opening experiences, they cannot understand. And they have a stake in shutting you up and keeping you from talking about it. When my nephew announced he was now female, my sister had a lot of trouble accepting this. I’m ashamed to say that I joined the group of people shaming her and calling her a transphobe. Even though I worked at a gender clinic at the time and saw how it wasn’t working for the people in the clinic, and how they ended up more broken and more vulnerable than when they came in for help. But my entire identity was invested in being this “open minded” (ha!) person who is on the “right side of history.” Now I see that I was on the wrong side of history. And it took a lot for me to get there very gradually. But once I saw it I couldn’t unsee it. Edit: He has since detransitioned. I forgot to add that part in the first posting. And one of his sisters still refuses to talk to her Mom since her entire identity got wrapped up in being such a good ally, a battling their “transphobic” Mom. Recently a friend, who I thought was also smart and able to grasp reality, and who had listened to my stories with seemingly an open mind, well she decided to “confront” me with the talking points that we are all so familiar with. “It’s only because of society being unable to accept them that these people end up more miserable than they were before.” And “People should be able to be their true inner selves.” And all of that. She did this in public, in a crowded wine bar, whereas all of our previous conversations (where she agreed with me that this subject is actually much more nuanced than that) had been in private. But she suddenly comes out with the official narrative when it would be potentially very dangerous for me to disagree with her. I simply nodded and realized I needed to go. Paid my bill, and politely left. She tried to bring up this subject to me again in a telephone conversation but I wasn’t going to go there. She’s not the safe person I thought that she was and that’s that. I assume eventually she’ll come around, like we all do. Like everyone will. Because it’s an insane ideology that doesn’t actually make any sense medically or socially or on any level. And once you really see that you can’t unsee it.
Bless you for your critical thinking. It gives me hope that there are whistleblowers coming out of the clinics themselves. Part of the struggle is that the subculture encourages these kids to issue unaliving threats. It’s one thing to hear it and have the larger life story of these children. But at the clinics, you are only seeing the child in crisis who believes the narrative and earnestly thinks they need treatment. It’s such a perfect storm of mental illness.
@@sisofphil When you look into their comments on "pro trans, we're soo persecuted" videos, it becomes very clear that most of them are just teenage brats getting themselves all worked up. Which is normal and fine and 10 years ago they would have been "emo", 20 years ago "goth". Parroting the stupidest arguements which have been debunked a thousand times. They're kids, they don't know any better. They're passionated. The problem are the adults putting them on a path of medicalizing and giving kids more agency than they can handle. It's the adults who let those kids down, who should know better, ask the right questions and be brave enough to speak up: doctors, psychiatrists, journalists, politicians and yes, parents.
Excellent point about the inadequacy of using scientific/empirical evidence - ‘you can’t reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into’. How do you ultimately challenge unfalsifiable beliefs? Sadly, it is these kinds of obstinate ideas that make so many problems intractable - I have a feeling the real solution lies outside of the box - I just don’t know where. I’m reminded if that study which found violent crime decreased when water was decontaminated of lead - the trans issue lays down stream of other cultural forces.
I think the real solution will be reached in the courts. Gender-affirming “healthcare” providers, and perhaps the parents as well, need to be sued by the victims of these manipulations and mutilations. Once enough court cases are settled in favor of the children, the “care” providers will have to stop, because it won’t be economically feasible for them to continue. Every day, I pray that the lawsuits will be settled quickly, in favor of the children. It can’t happen soon enough.
People often deprogram when they are rejected or ridiculed by their in-group when the person believes they did nothing wrong. For example, someone thinks trans women shouldn’t compete in women’s sports, the in-group ridicules him for being wrong. He knows he’s right, so this causes him to examine his other in-group beliefs.
@@lancewalker2595 , there is logic behind strange beliefs imho. Thinking there isn't is a very dangerous idea in my opinion. A logic that says: "I support this group because I think they are oppressed" or "they look like me so I support them" are logical. Maybe flawed and could lead people to support groups which actually have in their belief the idea that they need to unalive them... but logical for them (as in they do not experience a cognitive dissonance while reasoning themselves into the specific belief, or more accurately explaining to themselves that the belief they chose is not incongruent to them).
For this particular issue, what I've seen is people doing absolute backbends over rationality to avoid having any whiff of agreement with "those people," meaning of course, politically conservative-to-far-right. There seems to be an inclination to sort the myriad presentations and motivations that end up under the trans umbrella with the miserable treatment of gay and lesbian people for centuries, if not millennia. I think many people who double down instead of adjusting their opinions and understanding are concerned with ending up on the wrong side of history where many people on the political right seem to feel perfectly comfortable. And I get it. On this one topic, I end up broadly in agreement (with some important differences in *how* I got there) with a bunch of people who I disagree with in so many other ways. It is unpleasant to ever have anyone assume that because of my convictions about the current tumult over transgender ideology, I am anywhere near the political right. I'm not. The more I learn, the more I just think many people on the left just have this dead wrong--and that it causes real harm to individuals and society.
28:33 - for a psychological organization to ban research on the evidence for or against trans is like the Catholic Church banning Galileo from looking through telescopes.
It's so tedious how people assume a woman with gender critical views must be 1) right wing and/or religious and 2) a radical feminist. I've been left wing all my life, am spiritual but not religious (raised in secular home), and have never read a feminist book. I came to my conclusions on gender identity ideology through listening trans identified people, detransitioners and being female. In my experience, I'm a pretty typical example of people who are critical of gender identity ideology but don't spend their time storm chasing on twitter.
I live in a socialist state, a democracy but the level of socialism in the state makes it socialist. The issue is that leftism has no boundaries, they have no map and no north pole. So eventually everyone will end up on the ”kulak side”.
Thank you for bringing up this extremely important and relevant topic, even if tangential. You nailed it. I worked with James Randi briefly. Smart guy. Good guy. I learned a lot from him. If you get the chance, read his book, “Flim Flam”. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s response to Harry Houdini is priceless! You nailed it, ladies. Nailed it!!
Dale O'Leary's "The Gender Agenda" gives a very rich background to the kind of people around the UN who helped push all this through. Great information ladies. Thanks so much.
I’m going to have to watch this in short excerpts it’s too much for me as a grandma that’s been excluded from my dear granddaughter by daughter and son in law..
So good! My favourite show, I look forward to each week. This is amazing episode for my birthday 💝 definitely a gift. I feel the shift getting stronger, still a long road back but truth will prevail eventually
When I think about how parents got sucked in in the first place, with that threat about not having a child anymore, that we all know so well. It tells me that the way back for them is with the best interest of the child. If we can hammer home a single sentence phrase that facing the scaryness and the pain has a goal of saving their child, they may come back. I think about my own little sister, who I left with abusive parents, and then went back for her when the guilt was too much. For a long time I didn't forgive myself. I felt like I deserved to be punished. And because i felt like I needed to be punished, she needed to be a victim in that narrative. And we stayed in that space, and played our roles, and it wasn't healthy for either of us. I had to realize that me punishing myself was actually selfish. It was preventing her from flourishing and allowing her to create her own narrative for her life. For both of us, I needed to forgive myself. I couldn't forgive myself for me. But I could for her.
For years I believed a lot of what the TRA’s were saying, a few arguments or terms didn’t make a whole lot of sense to me but I brushed them off because I thought I could still overall support the cause and disagree with minor points. For me, the WPATH files and Cass Review made me realise what was going on more. I finally started listening to the other side and I realised how very wrong I was. I’m an odd person though lol I understand that a lot of people will never accept that they’re wrong.
Most transsexuals despise TRAs because they don't represent us in the slightest. They have mocked the very real difficulties we have had and made a travesty of a real issue.
What are the links between hormone blockers and mental health issues? A male teenager I like very much (who had no feminine characteristics as far as I could tell) began taking hormone blockers several years and is now suffering from hallucinations. His parents are good people and are "listening to the experts." It breaks my heart.
Love this deep dive! You guys challenge your audience intelligently and with evidence to back it up. For many, it’s scary to look at what we e done to kids-whether it’s the gender movement, junk eating, screen time, phones etc. we cave and we rationalize that our experience is different. Keep digging for us please.
I love that you guys talked about this. I have given up years ago being shocked when people double down (a certain politician comes to mind) and twist and turn to avoid the truth. I have been very much into looking at all the cognitive biases ("How do you know what you know?") we naturally carry and find that it applies to most people and their discussions about issues. I am working on learning about my own (and being very conscious of the truths I am trying to avoid) and then being able to see others' biases when I argue with them about things like this. It can help to when trying to counteract them. I also appreciate your reflection on what it will take for "our side" to be effective. Engaging in the same bad tactics (overblown arguments laden with logical fallacies and cognitive biases) that can be dismantled by the other side is not going to work. Winning over hearts with your own stories, vulnerability, and personal reflections is more effective than abstract arguements when it comes to daily life. I have made a lot of headway with people in my life who are on the left side of the spectrum. I think back to one of them who 6 years ago was in anguish over JK Rowling and now is extremely supportive of me and my perspective on my trans-identified child.
I honestly kinda hope that people like that never truly realise what has happened to them. I can’t imagine how angry and upsetting it would be for them.
But how can you say "or even accept she isn't trans." when you don't know her and are unlikely to ever have a conversation with her? Even if you did you sound like you would be pushing her to "accept" what you believe. I'm an Art Therapist and one rule is that you don't force your reality on clients.
@@ruthhorowitz7625 I don't know what Jazz thinks, feels or will do. I don't think you do either. There is this movement to judge. I am nearly 40 years past full transition and never regretted one moment or wished to detransition.
Stella and Sasha, THANK YOU both sincerely for this important podcast. 2 brave speakers who have the courage to speak the truth and show compassionate ways forward to young people struggling with gender dysphoria, self identity and related issues. I agree fully with you on the huge cognitive dissonance challenge, not just on this issue but on other matters where people have become entrenched. Some people, even when presented with the most irrefutable evidence, unfortunately will take it to their grave before admitting that they might, just might have been ill informed. Heartbreaking 💔
Frame and orientation matters. It seems to me from what I am hearing( I haven’t read the Cass Report myself yet) that Dr. Cass began at the premise that trans is a thing and her focus was what does the evidence show is the best way to help these beleaguered people. From that starting point, she came to her conclusion that the poor outcomes of the current treatment protocols are because we haven’t yet hit on the right way to help trans kids. However, if you begin further upstream, with the premise that there is no such thing as a born-that-way-trans-person, that in reality there are only mentally distressed people, or girls caught up in a social contagion, etc who latch on to this novel way to rebel and be special( the trans-is-the-new-Goth argument), or people caught in paraphilic kindling, then you find that the affirming approach simply entrenches the gender distress and delusions…
Parents don't need to be Munchausen to readily jump on the opportunity to trans their child. This is a belief system that is "correct" amongst a particular class of middle class professionals. A trans child confers a certain status on the parent. Sociologist Musa al-Gharbi, in his new book, calls this class "symbolic capitalists". They gain social capital from believing in trans ideology and supporting gender questioning in their kids. They're not doing it deliberately, they think they are being incredibly open minded and kind. This is the group that makes up the vast majority of the professionals that work in gender medicine, psychology, psychiatry.
It's worth noting as well that these professions are predominantly female, 80% of clinical psychologists are women. 83% of social workers are women. 83% of teachers are women.
Great show. Interesting how we convince ourselves of what we want to believe. ….on a side note I totally relate to your concept of weight loss Stella. I don’t believe in scales either. 😅
I see so many similarities and underlying issues and beliefs behind “parental alienation” or what many of us refer to as “trauma coerced parent child attachment” This is when a child is influenced and manipulated to reject a healthy & loving normal range parent often by the other parent in the context of separation/ divorce. It can also be perpetrated by a peer, teachers, other family member etc. 1. Some people refer to PA as a “pseudoscience” despite a significant amount of quality, peer reviewed scientific evidence over the past 3 of so decades. 2. The alienation is often perpetrated on a child/ teen/ young adult when their brain is not fully developed and they are very vulnerable and susceptible to influence. Once these children of young adults succumb to alienation they will often dig themselves such a big hole including making false allegations against the rejected parent that “changing their mind” is virtually impossible and that doubling and tripling down is easier. 3. Joshua Coleman - I believe he has quite a bit of understanding of PA but I still don’t think he understand how horrifically it impacts these kids when they become l older teens or adults. I would LOVE to see an interview by the two of you more specifically dealing with PA and also bringing in the gender aspect of this and how it can play out in these cases. To me a massive cultural issue is our child centric and child-led culture with (similar to the “me too” movement) we are told to ALWAYS believe and affirm the child. From personal experience and played out by many mothers and some fathers I know has devastating and catastrophic consequences for the rejected parent and most importantly the child/ren.
Many ppl are clueless about the extent of GIA (gender identity affirmation). I happened upon the subject through the employer-sponsored mandatory education around 2014-2015. Since then UA-cam was feeding me “stuff”. I was getting more and more shocked until, blessings, the “normie” professionals started speaking up. From there on, I have been following you for about 3-4 years along with Benjamin Boyce . Very grateful 🙏
Our girls don’t want to be women anymore! When my daughter moved up from junior school (about 12) I was shocked by how many of her classmates identified as something other than a girl! Girls & women come in all shapes & sizes! 💔❤️🩹💔
What I like about flat earthers is the willingness to demand evidence to support what we were merely told is true in school. Scientists should not expect us to just take their word for anything.
The answer to this important question is described in huge and fascinating depth by Iain McGilchrist. His extraordinary book “The master and his emissary” is far and away the best book I have ever read.
Great episode! I think that research and more importantly truly reporting what is happening on the ground is crucial to alert the vastly ignorant population and to create resistance among non-captured policymakers. But research is dry and won't galvanize people enough. We need another layer that focusses on alternative visions for life. Battling gender euphoria with the Cass Review probably won't work..
Those that will most readily believe something to be "The Truth", the most certain and able to convince themselves of something and willing to act on their beliefs, are people for whom self reflection is hardest. Lack of that critical voice is what led these people down this path in the first place. It seems to be an incredibly common trait. I don't have much hope any amount of "evidence" will convince these people they are wrong. They HAVE to be right, otherwise the very foundations of their idea of themselves as competent, reasonable humans would become unstable.
At first, to the topic of gender I came with an open mind. I had very limited information (because I wasn't really interested in this topic) and I believed it is possible to be born with opposite sex brain, I believed Jazz Jennings is an example of that (in my defense I was a teenager back then). Few years passed and I randomly thought about Jazz and it was the beginning of the rabbit hole I jumped in. After few months of intense reading I knew I was soooooo wrong to believe what I believed, I felt such a shame to even consider it a possibility. To this day I feel like the worst sheep. Silverlining of that is, it gave me that impulse to question every piece of information I see
I'm registered Independent in California. I'm also a 59 year old 'normie' woman who has no kids and not a dog in this fight. But people like me can still VOTE against the party who implements these policies, as I have just done.
23:50 considering the simple tenet: “first do no harm” Then the onus ought be on proving that what they do with medicalisation *isn’t* doing harm ( which it clearly is), Not on having to defend doing nothing ( against the accusation that not medicalising, causes harm) and therefore pushing the medical route 🤦🏻♀️
Don't forget the Change cycle - even people who seem so Anti- change / admitting they made a terrible error, may be willing to revisit the subject at a different point in their life. They might be in pre-contemplation, but you can still help them move along the cycle, even though it doesn';t seem like it.
Stella O'Malley comes across as a very loveable human being. There is a really unaffected engaging quality about her. These two are having important conversations.
I was in a Christian cult for 8 years. When I discovered that Biblically they were wrong, then I was done. I admitted it and moved forward still being a Christian. The ones who have an inability to see something that indicates that they've been flat out wrong, but who won't admit or, double-down on why they are still "right" are those who have become ideologically possessed. This is "who" they are. To ask them to change their mind or to even see how they are wrong is a threat to their identity...to who they are as a person. To be wrong is a personal threat and asking them to admit they are wrong is tantamount to suicide. What you're describing happens a lot all the time with all kinds of ideas and beliefs. We see this a lot in politics.
I’ve said this before but this reminds me of the reading wars. The science was overwhelming but whole language captured academia. It seemed hopeless. England changed first. There were stalwart brave English women speaking out and irrefutable evidence. England has a national curriculum so it was easier. America took much longer. It took a rebrand- phonics to the science of reading. And Mississippi seeing huge gains. In 2009, I never thought we’d be here now. I’m a reading specialist- if you can’t tell! You have to let people pivot instead of demanding they acknowledge wrongdoing. We need American research and much better branding. One advantage is detransitioning will continue to grow and liberal people mostly agree silently. We have to rebrand quickly though because younger people are captured.
I find the question this episode revolves around rather ironic since Stella herself has stated: “I think we need to be careful in declaring we’re the ‘evidence-based side,’ as most parents seek psychotherapy for their gender distressed kids and psychotherapy doesn’t have a strong evidence base,”
I know people can get trapped in trans because they don't want to defect from what they perceive as an embattled community, even if it feels less and less like they belong. Now it seems like they can be trapped in trans because, having put their family through all the drama, it's hard to backtrack and there may be recrimination or resistance from their parents. Add to these factors the natural desire to be consistent and not say that all that part of their life was a mistake and there's a real gravitational pull to trans that is pretty hard to escape. .
I have come to realize that social changes take a long time and that medicine tends to adapt itself to societal norms. For example, the negative effects of "the pill" aren't too publicised because it suggests that not all women can be free to have sex without thd risk of having an unintentioned pregnancy. Since the 1960's western societies focus on detaching sex from marrying and having children. The trans movement could have never come about in a world where having children is considered essential to self fullfilment. All that said, I feel very sorry for all trans children and their parents for sll the suffering they go through...
I think we are stuck with this phenomenon for the foreseeable. I hope it gets down-graded to the importance of something like Astrology: In the news (paper) but not "The News".
The three most difficult words to pronounce in the English language: I ... Was .... Wrong. Of course, it's more than that. It's easy to admit that no, Boston is not further north than Mardrid. But when you've accused people who disagree with you of being hateful and genocidal, and felt it in your bones, the cognitive dissonance of dealing with the fact that no, in fact, they were not, is too much to bear. It has nothing to do with the subject, it's the association of belief with identity. People won't even allow that a single thing they believe is wrong, for fear that the logical conclusion would be that EVERYTHING they believe is wrong. Better to lie to themselves indignantly than to lose their entire belief system.
If I listed everything I believe in, there would be a few that would conflict with each other. It’s that realisation that tells me somethings I believe are not actually true.
Can you interview Gabrielle Clark? I just heard her story. She's a desistance coach and helped her daughter who was wanting to transition. She had a lot of good points.
I have a friend like this. Her daughter decided at puberty that she was trans. Daughter ticked every box for the social contagion theory: autistic, mental health issues and her friend group "went trans" all around the same time at about age 11-12. The daughter comes across as androgynous at best, in looks and behaviour. She's got a goth look going on and mostly wears androgynous clothes. Occasionally she wears dresses and shows her cleavage, wears ear rings etc. I don't see her often so I can't say how often she looks feminine and how often androgynous. The daughter hasn't done anything medical yet, as far as I know, despite now being 18. I've always doubted that this particular girl is trans: what do others think?
Munchhausen by proxy. Well if they admit they are wrong, that also admit they were weak about protecting their children. On another note. You know that Randy, at the end, had to concede and pay out the million? Granted, what the gentlemen who proved Randy wrong demonstrated is highly unusual.
Similarly, “Sunk cost fallacy” (or “sunk cost bias”) is the human tendency to accept an irreversible - but preventable - loss and act as if the results are actually tolerable, even beneficial; to minimize the damage done; to avoid admitting a calamitous mistake.
The best way to allow yourself to change your mind is to verbally, out loud, append the statement: "But I'm open to the idea of being wrong, and new evidence can make me change my mind." It's that simple. And FFS, maybe SHUT UP about your deeply held beliefs and stop shoving them in other people's faces? If you are thinking actively, you SHOULD change your deeply held beliefs, because that demonstrates growth and learning from new experiences. Building your whole sense of personhood on What I Believe is like building on a house of cards. Maybe if you didn't introduce yourself by your beliefs, plaster them all over the back bumper of your car, and stick them in your g/d LinkedIn profile, you wouldn't feel like a tool when you have to change them. I still can't quite take in that people I've known for decades have actually gotten to the point where they are actually in favor of encouraging amputating the penises from seven year old boys and saying things like, "Yeah, but women get raped all the time anyway." It's incredibly depressing how quickly you can make people passionately affirm bullshit that flies in the face of everything they claimed to stand for much less bullshit that is provably wrong.
Faith isn't checkable, this applies to the gender ideology as well as religion. That's the problem, one decides to believe, that's what faith is. And that's why we will never convince most who are already victim.
To a degree I can empathise with the parents. Unless they’re full on “progressive” weirdos they’ve probably given up heaps and spent a lot of money to go down the affirmation route. Then to have the kid go back on it, I can see how that’d be frustrating
Just imagine a doctor who has been been performing MGM (circumcision) on thousands upon thousands of baby boys finding out not only that it isn't harmless, but in fact negatively impacts sexual function, and even mental health.
Yeah... And circumcision was the first instance of medical mutilation, and it's STILL GOING ON. Suffice it to say: people care less about male welfare than they do for that of females.
It is absolutely harmless unless the person doing it is incompetent. And there is absolutely NO diminishing function. Are you even male? You don’t know what you’re talking about. I have NEVER had any issues, and what people like you don’t realize, is that some people (not me, but someone I know) have a condition called Phimosis that requires medical intervention, otherwise sex will be painful and risky. That condition is when the skin is too tight and splits with an erection causing bleeding and pain. Not conducive to a healthy sex life. It seems there are a few kinds of people against male circumcision- (the “female” version IS “mutilation”, as it serves no purpose other than reducing their function) Those who oppose males, seem to be militant atheists who believe it’s a religious practice, those who think everything should be “natural”, and those who associate it with Judaism, and they hate them, so they want it stopped. Why don’t you mind your own business?
C. S. Lewis is very good about this. "Repentance for a sin," in the old Christian jargon, is like "doing a sum," where you have to good all the way back to the place where the original error was made, and re-do from there.
Perhaps you should ask Gordon Guyatt if there such a thing as having "a change of heart" IF you are practicing evidence based medicine (EBM)? Guyatt coined the term (EBM). Perhaps the concept of EBM is meaningless.
Gender dysphoria is a thing, call it gender identity disorder or what have you. It is still very real for a lot of people. If the ROGD and youth transition concerns were changed somehow, there would still be people who experienced gender dysphoria and who would want to transition. We may not understand why, it may be a complicated interaction of C-PTSD and other issues, but the world keeps turning out people like us. I think that hormone therapy and transition may still be the best solution for some of those people, who are able to consent and willing to accept the risks. I don't support transition of youth, but I am extremely grateful for my own transition and access to medical resources that have supported me. Maybe the answer regarding whether it works is to look closer into the people for whom it does work, and who have had a positive outcome. We exist.
I think most people understand there are people who have gender identity disorder. However, it is a mental disorder and should be treated as such. It is pretty shocking that instead of looking for a “cure” if you will, we transition people. It would be much better if we could treat people with medication to help fix whatever is misfiring in the brain, then what we are doing to people now.
@terrie6738 Personally, I would rather transition. I think if there were such a medication, I would have declined it. I think that for many of us, including me, there is no other solution. I think there should be gate keeping to avoid the ROGD that has developed, but for adults like myself, I think transition is a viable treatment option. I think that transition can be a successful treatment and the decision to do so should be between a mature, educated patient and their care team.
@@jeng3609 I had a feeling you would say that. It is interesting that if you had an option to be happy and comfortable the way you were born, you would still rather try to change to look like the opposite sex, which comes with a lot of risks and disadvantages. That really doesn’t make a lot of sense. Definitely something to think about.
@terrie6738 I think that is a good observation and one that I think might answer some questions if you thought about it. What do you think about it? I live it, and I love my life.
@@jeng3609 well, some people with various illnesses don’t want to get better. There are plenty of different reasons why, I think it seems possible that you didn’t/ don’t want to get better, in the sense of accepting/ loving yourself the way you were born. You would rather feel the pain and go through the horrible process of trying to change your gender and continue to be a victim for the rest of your life. Because even if you transition and “passed” as the opposite sex, you would never actually be that sex, therefore you are continuing to punish yourself with these feelings of not being who you believe you should be. Plenty of other reasons as well. But this could definitely fit, as well.
Woah now!!!...where did the mention of ADHD and the suggestion that it's wrong to medicate it come from??...not only is that completely wrong, but it's off topic and completely unnecessary to mention...in the UK kids are under diagnosed not overly diagnosed...as a person with ADHD and a parent of children with ADHD I am massively offended by your suggestion!!!
@@VauxhallViva-s8x It's not just me. She won't talk to anyone who doesn't follow her narrative. I'm just the person who stuck their head above the parapet.
The thing they need is Jesus. Because in Jesus we are able to remove the mark and stand naked and ashamed in the presence in The Most High God and not die, but live in His everlasting mercy that is greater than our sins. If the person refuses Christ, we who agree with Him that all have fallen short of the glory of God, then we can afirm that though we may see differently than them, we are not enemies, so how much more mercy and kindness and understanding is available for who are detransitioning or descussing their remorse with their family and friends. But, even if they are all alone in this world in the Spirit they can be with Jesus. He will never cast anyone out. If anyone would like scripture references for these thoughts. Ask
It is very difficult to admit “i was wrong.” It is harder still to admit “i was fooled.” The hardest is to admit “i was fooled; I helped to fool and harm others, including those I should have protected.”
My book The War on Gender is my go at taking down the agenda that is trying to fool people. I don't think people understand that. I agree with Stella on much of this, except that she makes it a blanket judgement and doesn't understand it was a real thing, transsexualism, which is being mocked by the transgenderists.
💯%.
@@dempseyg12 And it's hard for people to accept that someone they thought was 'fooled' couldn't possibly have been.
Spot on. But this is why doctors have a diagnostic process. They completely changed that ONLY for this one particular condition. The Gender Affirming Care model is completely non-scientific. By definition, it circumvents their usual imperative to assess a patient via taking a thorough history (and examination, where relevant) before running tests/investigations (where relevant). Doctors have collectively abdicated their duty of care in the name of this ideology and it is bordering on criminal, especially now in the face of all of this emerging evidence. This is why I blame the doctors for this disaster.
All of my friends are pro-trans and I feel so frustrated and condescended to when I bring up what is happening to (disproportionately gay) children. The assumption seems to be that I, a gay man, am ignorant and hateful when I say I don’t want these kids to be medicalised and have the best chance in life for loving relationships and healthy bodies… and I’m being told this by straight people. It’s such an insidious, shitty thing. Thank you for the work you both do.
The sunk-cost fallacy runs so deep not only for the parents who trans’d their kids, but those who think trans is the new civil rights frontier and are completely silo’d with the left-leaning content they consume. I don’t know what it will take.
Quite fasconating from an anthropologist point of view. The Trans-ideology zeitgeist is right here, right now, and its in the air.
Give it five or ten years and we here in the Anglosphere will look back on this chapter of human history in the same way as we look back in disbelief on strongly held beliefs from the past, like witchcraft which was the zeitgeist of it's time!
There is no biological or scientific basis for witchcraft or believers in a flat earth, neither is there any scientific proof in Trans-ideology, for its a belief system, and just like a religion you either believe and subscribe to it ... or you don't.
I don't.
I agree with all of this. And yet I find myself vilified as if I was grooming children for transition. People clearly never go into this so as to understand that serious transsexuals despise the whole 'Trans Rights' agenda.
I wish people would engage without imagining in advance that they know what they are actually ignorant and prejudiced about.
The podcast Unspeakable Truth featured Andrew Sullivan about this issue. I'm using it to open the eyes of my liberal friends. While Andrew Sullivan is historically conservative, he has been outspoken about Trump and is an OG in fighting for gay marriage. Hard for my fellow liberal friends to discount him because of that. I really think if more of the LGB and "Be Kind" crowd understood the conflation that is occurring between the gay rights and trans right movements is harmful, more people would be against GAC. It's called "Andrew Sullivan on Where Trans Activism and Gay Rights Collide" it was cast about 10 months ago.
@@CPCA_88 What most people also don't understand is that 'trans activism' has very little if anything to do with actual transsexuals and is a parasitic mockery created by anarcho-leftists who want to cause chaos.
@@CPCA_88I will give it a listen on tomorrow’s commute, thank you.
This is why I’m not as optimistic as many others that the trans craze is going to start dying down anytime soon. Too many people - from individuals to institutions to society as a whole - have invested everything they have in the issue and burned all bridges behind them, and now there is no ”face-saving” of turning back.
They can always say they were tricked
@@goodkady That's a very hard thing for most people to admit though. The subconscious "reasoning" seems to go something like this:
"If this were a lie, then only an idiot would believe it.
But I'M NOT AN IDIOT.
And I DID BELIEVE IT.
Therefore it can't be a lie."
Could a new campaign of sorts be started "Look forward in health" or something more catching, that suggests really forgiving and moving past ill information and see the children and their concerned family members in need and finding a way to allow them save-face or move on with healthier horizons without shame?
@@bjartefoshaug7486 hey then maybe Elon saying he was tricked wasn’t so cockamamie after all. I mean, if a multi billionaire genius could be tricked by a bunch of quacks, then we all can be tricked and our faces are saved.
I'm not as optimistic only because it's a perfect pathway to destroy the rights of women, which humanity has never, ever, ever been in favor of for ANY significant period of time. You look back at the history of the human race, and women have been cattle for 100% of the time. Our rights are fragile as a soap bubble, and we refuse to see that.
My best friend is a gay guy, he’s been pro-trans for years. He never heard of the Cass Report until I brought it up to him. I explained to him about that and what happened to jazz Jennings and the surgery they aired on TV, he was blown. He does slowly seem to be realising that there are glaring issues going on here.
Sadly leftists usually live in an echo-chambre.
Ironic. One of my old good friends was a gay man, from Irish Catholic family, with dad who loves him despite their worldview difference. Anyway, back in 2008 he warned me against using preferred pronouns for a deranged "transman" who was stalking a female friend of mine. He pointed out one can disagree and respect a person's dignity but uphold your boundaries. His father loved him, they were tight but surely he was not going to affirm his sexuality and he wasn't going to stop being gay for his dad. They had a worldview difference but respect for each other. The deranged woman on the other hand required complete buy in from others. Last I heard in 09-10 this woman was not doing well on testosterone. Like not at all. Next time I see him I gotta ask if he ever changed his no preferred pronouns policy. I highly doubt it.
23:27 this reminds me of the neverending "we need more research to show whether or not trans women have an unfair advantage" when we already have mountains of evidence that males are more athletic than females.
That's the left wing's version of "we need more research into global warming." Only one side gets accused of science denial, but both sides do it. It's sickening.
And the cognitive dissonance among some gender critical women, who recognize that fact, and yet continue to believe that female professional athletes like Megan Rapinoe and Caitlin Clark deserve "equal pay" to their objectively superior male counterparts.
@@lancewalker2595 It is fun to invent arguments to win against mate.
If childish.
The fact that every episode you have produced from the beginning of your podcast has been extremely is interesting and pertinent is evidence that there are far too many layers to this for it to go away anytime soon.
Thank you so much for this. As parents we are here, dancing a razor’s edge between delaying so she can grow up, but having her hate us. Thank you for being that voice of rationality that I need in keeping up this dance.
This must be so challenging. We have no evidence that Puberty blockers used inappropriately (I.e to halt normal puberty instead of its intended use for precocious puberty) actually delays puberty. In practice, it appears to arrest puberty and I worry these children will never mentally develop appropriately.
Many parents have been down the same road and many have been able to save not only their children but their relationship with their children (it’s harder once your children are legal adults or old enough to emancipate themselves)
As the other commenter said, it must be so extremely hard to balance this. After everything I’ve read, watched, etc. let your child “hate” you. Majority of kids desist. It’s better for your child to “hate” you now, than hate you later after realizing they’re not actually trans and have made a huge, irreversible mistake. Sending love and strength ❤
It’s a “tightrope marathon”. You are not alone in watchful waiting.
My daughter finally desisted after 4 really rough years of non-affirming.
Strongly recommend getting her into a hobby offline or some outdoor activity that connects her with her body as a tool, rather than an identity.
Science is on our side, we will win.
It must be tough being a parent in this situation but this girl sounds like she has the worst parents.
I recommend researching Gabrielle Clark. I just heard her story and she makes a lot of good points. She's a desistance coach and helped her young daughter.
I'm totally with Sasha on this. The vast majority of parents who eventually do support transition for their children--even for children who are technically adults and began cross-sex hormones at 18 or older--didn't come to that decision lightly. In a sense, they had to persuade themselves that transition was the only option available. Imagine going through all of that--for nine years!--and then your kid comes back to you and says they were wrong. Suddenly, all of those warning lights in your brain start blipping, and you realize that you're at least partially responsible for that fact that your beloved child will never have children of their own or experience an orgasm. That's a lot to deal with, and one of the natural responses to regret is to deny it. That's why we're all so susceptible to the sunk-costs fallacy. We keep spending and spending and spending because if we stop, we admit that the original money spent was a total waste.
They tell kids, listen to who you really are (when the kid says they're trans). Then, when the kid says, actually, I'm not. THEN the parent says, no no no, (we've invested too much social capital in this) we know you better than anyone; you're trans.
Excellent point
I think we will get out of this the same way we got out of the recovered memories movement-when insurance stops covering it. When insurance stopped covering therapy for recovered memories, suddenly cases dropped drastically.
There’s also parallels in that it was very hard to speak out against the recovered memories movement-“What do you mean you don’t believe this child was SA’d by her father?! Are you a monster?!”
I do wonder how some of the skeptics of the recovered memories movement were able to speak out, we should learn from them.
I cant thank you ladies enough for all that you have been doing. My family began struggling with this about 3 years ago. My one regret is that I listened to the name change, I allowed it but have not affirmed it. I tried to call my child by his new name maybe 4 times. We have a long long story but I am still hopeful that I will be able to embrace my son again and call him by his name...and look in his eyes and see him instead of the emptiness I see now. My Christian believes also give me hope that even if I never embrace him again in this world that I will in the next. But your diligence and commitment to therapy first is empowering to me. It emboldened me to stand in front of this as much as I could and can. I agree we never see a true "end". But through calm, compassionate discourse we can change minds.
You see emptiness because your daughter can’t trust you to love and accept her. That is your own doing.
In order to avoid doubling down I have found a few things to be very instrumental in allowing people to change their minds.
First they need to be committed to the outcome rather than the process. We want better lives for people who experience GD. If that is what we truly strive for than accepting new data on how to achieve that is easier.
Also people need a pathway to gracefully change their minds and be allowed to do so from those across the aisle.
And we need to practice and teach people how to be wrong. That it is ok to be wrong. We should model and share where and how we ourselves were wrong, how we changed our minds and that changing your mind does not mean giving up on the overarching goal. (Though the initial goal may change or evolve to get at what we truly believe is important)
I have been in something of a cult and it was hard to leave. I was also a true believer of gender ideology. I was able to change my mind, learn and incorporate new information. I do not think I am particularly unique or special but I did spend a good deal of time and energy learning how to do these things.
And one more thing many people think they lack the knowledge to come to these different conclusions. They think there is some information that the activist experts possess that they don’t know or understand. So they think there is more there than there really is and when drawing a conclusion they want to be generous to the side that seems more aligned with their broad values.
Those who are concerned about youth transition and youth gender medicine will only appeal to those people of the message is we also want what is best for young people, we just get there in a different way. People concerned about compassion will never change their minds if it is framed as competing empathy between trans people and women. They may get that aspect eventually but that is not a persuasive argument when they are still firmly believing the TRA talking points.
I am against these 'TRAs' But there is more to transsexualism than their ideology
I was never influenced. How could I have been as a child in the 1950s growing up in Africa?
Entirely endogenous. I went through extensive and intensive therapy in an attempt to 'cure' myself in my twenties. I tried. Couldn't be done.
And yet everybody seems to think that they know all about why I felt this way and what I should have done about it.
Worked out fine in the end, facing and trusting myself.
I'm just worried about the coming pogroms.
@@CosmicClaire99Africa, a continent where zero children have ever been influenced. Particularly in the 1950s.
What kind of ludicrous claim is this?
@@robertmarshall2502 I'm saying that as a child in the 1950s in Africa was not exposed to the kind of gender ideology which is rampant today.
So not all 'trans' children have been influenced is what I am saying.
@@CosmicClaire99 Yes and that's dumb. Because we know that in that era young "effeminate" boys were still affected and if you did this 40 years ago then it sounds more like classic AGP
I saw Stella struggling with the language to apply Bertrand Russell's concept about the teapot. The bottom line is that the person making the claim has the burden of proof, not the one who questions the claim. In Russell's analogy, if you claim that there is a teapot, you have to provide evidence of the teapot (i.e., it isn't up to the person questioning to provide evidence there isn't). If you claim that the best course of action, when a young person questions their gender, is to medicalize them, then you have to provide evidence.
Obviously the whole gender ideology capture is a psy-op. But this is a case of an actual syndrome ~ Transsexualism ~ being captured by 'Queer' activists, infiltrated, weaponised and used against our society.
If there was strict gatekeeping like there used to be this whole issue would go away, but it's promoted and you can't be critical of the agenda, even if like me you went through a properly triaged, monitored and measured process 40 year ago.
Hitchens razor😊
Once you open your eyes and see the reality, it’s a very lonely and threatening place to be in life. Unless your social group, and community, have also gone through the same eye opening experiences, they cannot understand. And they have a stake in shutting you up and keeping you from talking about it. When my nephew announced he was now female, my sister had a lot of trouble accepting this. I’m ashamed to say that I joined the group of people shaming her and calling her a transphobe. Even though I worked at a gender clinic at the time and saw how it wasn’t working for the people in the clinic, and how they ended up more broken and more vulnerable than when they came in for help. But my entire identity was invested in being this “open minded” (ha!) person who is on the “right side of history.” Now I see that I was on the wrong side of history. And it took a lot for me to get there very gradually. But once I saw it I couldn’t unsee it.
Edit: He has since detransitioned. I forgot to add that part in the first posting. And one of his sisters still refuses to talk to her Mom since her entire identity got wrapped up in being such a good ally, a battling their “transphobic” Mom.
Recently a friend, who I thought was also smart and able to grasp reality, and who had listened to my stories with seemingly an open mind, well she decided to “confront” me with the talking points that we are all so familiar with. “It’s only because of society being unable to accept them that these people end up more miserable than they were before.” And “People should be able to be their true inner selves.” And all of that. She did this in public, in a crowded wine bar, whereas all of our previous conversations (where she agreed with me that this subject is actually much more nuanced than that) had been in private. But she suddenly comes out with the official narrative when it would be potentially very dangerous for me to disagree with her. I simply nodded and realized I needed to go. Paid my bill, and politely left. She tried to bring up this subject to me again in a telephone conversation but I wasn’t going to go there. She’s not the safe person I thought that she was and that’s that. I assume eventually she’ll come around, like we all do. Like everyone will. Because it’s an insane ideology that doesn’t actually make any sense medically or socially or on any level. And once you really see that you can’t unsee it.
Bless you for your critical thinking. It gives me hope that there are whistleblowers coming out of the clinics themselves.
Part of the struggle is that the subculture encourages these kids to issue unaliving threats. It’s one thing to hear it and have the larger life story of these children.
But at the clinics, you are only seeing the child in crisis who believes the narrative and earnestly thinks they need treatment.
It’s such a perfect storm of mental illness.
@@sisofphil When you look into their comments on "pro trans, we're soo persecuted" videos, it becomes very clear that most of them are just teenage brats getting themselves all worked up. Which is normal and fine and 10 years ago they would have been "emo", 20 years ago "goth". Parroting the stupidest arguements which have been debunked a thousand times. They're kids, they don't know any better. They're passionated. The problem are the adults putting them on a path of medicalizing and giving kids more agency than they can handle. It's the adults who let those kids down, who should know better, ask the right questions and be brave enough to speak up: doctors, psychiatrists, journalists, politicians and yes, parents.
Excellent point about the inadequacy of using scientific/empirical evidence - ‘you can’t reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into’. How do you ultimately challenge unfalsifiable beliefs? Sadly, it is these kinds of obstinate ideas that make so many problems intractable - I have a feeling the real solution lies outside of the box - I just don’t know where. I’m reminded if that study which found violent crime decreased when water was decontaminated of lead - the trans issue lays down stream of other cultural forces.
I think the real solution will be reached in the courts. Gender-affirming “healthcare” providers, and perhaps the parents as well, need to be sued by the victims of these manipulations and mutilations. Once enough court cases are settled in favor of the children, the “care” providers will have to stop, because it won’t be economically feasible for them to continue.
Every day, I pray that the lawsuits will be settled quickly, in favor of the children. It can’t happen soon enough.
People often deprogram when they are rejected or ridiculed by their in-group when the person believes they did nothing wrong.
For example, someone thinks trans women shouldn’t compete in women’s sports, the in-group ridicules him for being wrong. He knows he’s right, so this causes him to examine his other in-group beliefs.
You can't reason a person out of a belief they did not reason themselves into.
Agree. For a lot of people, they will only stop saying transwomen are women because others have stopped. Pure sheep mentality.
I assume people actually reason themselves into beliefs, their reasoning process might be flawed though...
@@meirm471 They do… occasionally. Rarely though.
@@lancewalker2595 , there is logic behind strange beliefs imho. Thinking there isn't is a very dangerous idea in my opinion. A logic that says: "I support this group because I think they are oppressed" or "they look like me so I support them" are logical. Maybe flawed and could lead people to support groups which actually have in their belief the idea that they need to unalive them... but logical for them (as in they do not experience a cognitive dissonance while reasoning themselves into the specific belief, or more accurately explaining to themselves that the belief they chose is not incongruent to them).
If someone thinks they are Napoleon calling them Mr Bonaparte doesn't help them.
For this particular issue, what I've seen is people doing absolute backbends over rationality to avoid having any whiff of agreement with "those people," meaning of course, politically conservative-to-far-right.
There seems to be an inclination to sort the myriad presentations and motivations that end up under the trans umbrella with the miserable treatment of gay and lesbian people for centuries, if not millennia. I think many people who double down instead of adjusting their opinions and understanding are concerned with ending up on the wrong side of history where many people on the political right seem to feel perfectly comfortable.
And I get it. On this one topic, I end up broadly in agreement (with some important differences in *how* I got there) with a bunch of people who I disagree with in so many other ways. It is unpleasant to ever have anyone assume that because of my convictions about the current tumult over transgender ideology, I am anywhere near the political right. I'm not. The more I learn, the more I just think many people on the left just have this dead wrong--and that it causes real harm to individuals and society.
That's what I feel in a nutshell.
28:33 - for a psychological organization to ban research on the evidence for or against trans is like the Catholic Church banning Galileo from looking through telescopes.
It's so tedious how people assume a woman with gender critical views must be 1) right wing and/or religious and 2) a radical feminist. I've been left wing all my life, am spiritual but not religious (raised in secular home), and have never read a feminist book. I came to my conclusions on gender identity ideology through listening trans identified people, detransitioners and being female. In my experience, I'm a pretty typical example of people who are critical of gender identity ideology but don't spend their time storm chasing on twitter.
I live in a socialist state, a democracy but the level of socialism in the state makes it socialist. The issue is that leftism has no boundaries, they have no map and no north pole. So eventually everyone will end up on the ”kulak side”.
Thank you for bringing up this extremely important and relevant topic, even if tangential. You nailed it.
I worked with James Randi briefly. Smart guy. Good guy. I learned a lot from him. If you get the chance, read his book, “Flim Flam”. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s response to Harry Houdini is priceless!
You nailed it, ladies. Nailed it!!
Dale O'Leary's "The Gender Agenda" gives a very rich background to the kind of people around the UN who helped push all this through. Great information ladies. Thanks so much.
I’m going to have to watch this in short excerpts it’s too much for me as a grandma that’s been excluded from my dear granddaughter by daughter and son in law..
So good! My favourite show, I look forward to each week. This is amazing episode for my birthday 💝 definitely a gift.
I feel the shift getting stronger, still a long road back but truth will prevail eventually
When I think about how parents got sucked in in the first place, with that threat about not having a child anymore, that we all know so well. It tells me that the way back for them is with the best interest of the child. If we can hammer home a single sentence phrase that facing the scaryness and the pain has a goal of saving their child, they may come back.
I think about my own little sister, who I left with abusive parents, and then went back for her when the guilt was too much. For a long time I didn't forgive myself. I felt like I deserved to be punished. And because i felt like I needed to be punished, she needed to be a victim in that narrative. And we stayed in that space, and played our roles, and it wasn't healthy for either of us.
I had to realize that me punishing myself was actually selfish. It was preventing her from flourishing and allowing her to create her own narrative for her life. For both of us, I needed to forgive myself.
I couldn't forgive myself for me. But I could for her.
Beautifully said ❤
For years I believed a lot of what the TRA’s were saying, a few arguments or terms didn’t make a whole lot of sense to me but I brushed them off because I thought I could still overall support the cause and disagree with minor points.
For me, the WPATH files and Cass Review made me realise what was going on more. I finally started listening to the other side and I realised how very wrong I was.
I’m an odd person though lol I understand that a lot of people will never accept that they’re wrong.
Most transsexuals despise TRAs because they don't represent us in the slightest. They have mocked the very real difficulties we have had and made a travesty of a real issue.
I equate this doubling down to finishing the cake when I know that two pieces is already too much!
What are the links between hormone blockers and mental health issues? A male teenager I like very much (who had no feminine characteristics as far as I could tell) began taking hormone blockers several years and is now suffering from hallucinations. His parents are good people and are "listening to the experts." It breaks my heart.
Love this deep dive! You guys challenge your audience intelligently and with evidence to back it up. For many, it’s scary to look at what we e done to kids-whether it’s the gender movement, junk eating, screen time, phones etc. we cave and we rationalize that our experience is different. Keep digging for us please.
I love that you guys talked about this. I have given up years ago being shocked when people double down (a certain politician comes to mind) and twist and turn to avoid the truth. I have been very much into looking at all the cognitive biases ("How do you know what you know?") we naturally carry and find that it applies to most people and their discussions about issues. I am working on learning about my own (and being very conscious of the truths I am trying to avoid) and then being able to see others' biases when I argue with them about things like this. It can help to when trying to counteract them. I also appreciate your reflection on what it will take for "our side" to be effective. Engaging in the same bad tactics (overblown arguments laden with logical fallacies and cognitive biases) that can be dismantled by the other side is not going to work. Winning over hearts with your own stories, vulnerability, and personal reflections is more effective than abstract arguements when it comes to daily life. I have made a lot of headway with people in my life who are on the left side of the spectrum. I think back to one of them who 6 years ago was in anguish over JK Rowling and now is extremely supportive of me and my perspective on my trans-identified child.
This is why Jazz will never be able to detransition or even accept she isn't trans.
I honestly kinda hope that people like that never truly realise what has happened to them. I can’t imagine how angry and upsetting it would be for them.
But how can you say "or even accept she isn't trans." when you don't know her and are unlikely to ever have a conversation with her? Even if you did you sound like you would be pushing her to "accept" what you believe.
I'm an Art Therapist and one rule is that you don't force your reality on clients.
@@Toastie19 sadly she knows
@@CosmicClaire99 watch the show, most people see it.
@@ruthhorowitz7625 I don't know what Jazz thinks, feels or will do. I don't think you do either. There is this movement to judge. I am nearly 40 years past full transition and never regretted one moment or wished to detransition.
Stella and Sasha, THANK YOU both sincerely for this important podcast. 2 brave speakers who have the courage to speak the truth and show compassionate ways forward to young people struggling with gender dysphoria, self identity and related issues.
I agree fully with you on the huge cognitive dissonance challenge, not just on this issue but on other matters where people have become entrenched. Some people, even when presented with the most irrefutable evidence, unfortunately will take it to their grave before admitting that they might, just might have been ill informed. Heartbreaking 💔
Such an excellent, nuanced discussion. And applicable to so many social, political, and relationship issues. Thank you for your insights.
Frame and orientation matters. It seems to me from what I am hearing( I haven’t read the Cass Report myself yet) that Dr. Cass began at the premise that trans is a thing and her focus was what does the evidence show is the best way to help these beleaguered people. From that starting point, she came to her conclusion that the poor outcomes of the current treatment protocols are because we haven’t yet hit on the right way to help trans kids. However, if you begin further upstream, with the premise that there is no such thing as a born-that-way-trans-person, that in reality there are only mentally distressed people, or girls caught up in a social contagion, etc who latch on to this novel way to rebel and be special( the trans-is-the-new-Goth argument), or people caught in paraphilic kindling, then you find that the affirming approach simply entrenches the gender distress and delusions…
😂😂 57.32 when stella talks about kidding herself about losing weight.. I laughed out loud 😅
“I don’t believe in scales” 😂😂
''incrimental exposure'' is a perfect expression of what made me peak. it's definitely the way to go for walking back.
Parents don't need to be Munchausen to readily jump on the opportunity to trans their child. This is a belief system that is "correct" amongst a particular class of middle class professionals. A trans child confers a certain status on the parent. Sociologist Musa al-Gharbi, in his new book, calls this class "symbolic capitalists". They gain social capital from believing in trans ideology and supporting gender questioning in their kids. They're not doing it deliberately, they think they are being incredibly open minded and kind. This is the group that makes up the vast majority of the professionals that work in gender medicine, psychology, psychiatry.
It's worth noting as well that these professions are predominantly female, 80% of clinical psychologists are women. 83% of social workers are women. 83% of teachers are women.
An important conversation, as always. Thanks for all that you both are doing!
Good stuff, Stella & Sasha. It's a pleasure to listen to your back and forth, and this topic was a good one too.
Thank you for your amazing work. It is horrible to have parents like this. Keep your great job. KIsses from Lisbon. * 😘
This was a good one
Great show. Interesting how we convince ourselves of what we want to believe.
….on a side note I totally relate to your concept of weight loss Stella. I don’t believe in scales either. 😅
Many of the institutions have been captured.
I see so many similarities and underlying issues and beliefs behind “parental alienation” or what many of us refer to as “trauma coerced parent child attachment”
This is when a child is influenced and manipulated to reject a healthy & loving normal range parent often by the other parent in the context of separation/ divorce. It can also be perpetrated by a peer, teachers, other family member etc.
1. Some people refer to PA as a “pseudoscience” despite a significant amount of quality, peer reviewed scientific evidence over the past 3 of so decades.
2. The alienation is often perpetrated on a child/ teen/ young adult when their brain is not fully developed and they are very vulnerable and susceptible to influence. Once these children of young adults succumb to alienation they will often dig themselves such a big hole including making false allegations against the rejected parent that “changing their mind” is virtually impossible and that doubling and tripling down is easier.
3. Joshua Coleman - I believe he has quite a bit of understanding of PA but I still don’t think he understand how horrifically it impacts these kids when they become l older teens or adults.
I would LOVE to see an interview by the two of you more specifically dealing with PA and also bringing in the gender aspect of this and how it can play out in these cases.
To me a massive cultural issue is our child centric and child-led culture with (similar to the “me too” movement) we are told to ALWAYS believe and affirm the child.
From personal experience and played out by many mothers and some fathers I know has devastating and catastrophic consequences for the rejected parent and most importantly the child/ren.
This channel is so compelling, keep it up ladies, you are doing important work👍
Many ppl are clueless about the extent of GIA (gender identity affirmation). I happened upon the subject through the employer-sponsored mandatory education around 2014-2015. Since then UA-cam was feeding me “stuff”. I was getting more and more shocked until, blessings, the “normie” professionals started speaking up. From there on, I have been following you for about 3-4 years along with Benjamin Boyce . Very grateful 🙏
Very, very interesting discussion! Thank you.
Our girls don’t want to be women anymore!
When my daughter moved up from junior school (about 12) I was shocked by how many of her classmates identified as something other than a girl! Girls & women come in all shapes & sizes! 💔❤️🩹💔
Brilliant, as always
Excellent episode, very interesting. Keep it up.
What I like about flat earthers is the willingness to demand evidence to support what we were merely told is true in school. Scientists should not expect us to just take their word for anything.
The answer to this important question is described in huge and fascinating depth by Iain McGilchrist. His extraordinary book “The master and his emissary” is far and away the best book I have ever read.
Great episode! I think that research and more importantly truly reporting what is happening on the ground is crucial to alert the vastly ignorant population and to create resistance among non-captured policymakers.
But research is dry and won't galvanize people enough. We need another layer that focusses on alternative visions for life. Battling gender euphoria with the Cass Review probably won't work..
Adults are just as stubborn and prone to ‘magical thinking’ when it comes to discussing the use of animals as resources.
So informative and entertaining.. I love you gals!
Those that will most readily believe something to be "The Truth", the most certain and able to convince themselves of something and willing to act on their beliefs, are people for whom self reflection is hardest.
Lack of that critical voice is what led these people down this path in the first place. It seems to be an incredibly common trait. I don't have much hope any amount of "evidence" will convince these people they are wrong. They HAVE to be right, otherwise the very foundations of their idea of themselves as competent, reasonable humans would become unstable.
At first, to the topic of gender I came with an open mind. I had very limited information (because I wasn't really interested in this topic) and I believed it is possible to be born with opposite sex brain, I believed Jazz Jennings is an example of that (in my defense I was a teenager back then). Few years passed and I randomly thought about Jazz and it was the beginning of the rabbit hole I jumped in. After few months of intense reading I knew I was soooooo wrong to believe what I believed, I felt such a shame to even consider it a possibility. To this day I feel like the worst sheep. Silverlining of that is, it gave me that impulse to question every piece of information I see
I'm registered Independent in California. I'm also a 59 year old 'normie' woman who has no kids and not a dog in this fight. But people like me can still VOTE against the party who implements these policies, as I have just done.
If the cost for this mega debacle will be pushed on to the tax-payer, or insurance holder as collective, you sure have a dog in the fight.
@@helenestiernstrand6575 Right you are! That was my motivation for voting.
What would happen to someone who continues to conduct lobotomies? This is where we are with the child sex change advocates.
23:50 considering the simple tenet:
“first do no harm”
Then the onus ought be on proving that what they do with medicalisation *isn’t* doing harm ( which it clearly is),
Not on having to defend doing nothing ( against the accusation that not medicalising, causes harm) and therefore pushing the medical route 🤦🏻♀️
Don't forget the Change cycle - even people who seem so Anti- change / admitting they made a terrible error, may be willing to revisit the subject at a different point in their life. They might be in pre-contemplation, but you can still help them move along the cycle, even though it doesn';t seem like it.
Stella O'Malley comes across as a very loveable human being. There is a really unaffected engaging quality about her. These two are having important conversations.
Just because one person is truly trans doesn't mean every person who sees help is trans.
True trans is not a thing
I was in a Christian cult for 8 years. When I discovered that Biblically they were wrong, then I was done. I admitted it and moved forward still being a Christian. The ones who have an inability to see something that indicates that they've been flat out wrong, but who won't admit or, double-down on why they are still "right" are those who have become ideologically possessed. This is "who" they are. To ask them to change their mind or to even see how they are wrong is a threat to their identity...to who they are as a person. To be wrong is a personal threat and asking them to admit they are wrong is tantamount to suicide. What you're describing happens a lot all the time with all kinds of ideas and beliefs. We see this a lot in politics.
I’ve said this before but this reminds me of the reading wars. The science was overwhelming but whole language captured academia. It seemed hopeless. England changed first. There were stalwart brave English women speaking out and irrefutable evidence. England has a national curriculum so it was easier. America took much longer. It took a rebrand- phonics to the science of reading. And Mississippi seeing huge gains. In 2009, I never thought we’d be here now. I’m a reading specialist- if you can’t tell!
You have to let people pivot instead of demanding they acknowledge wrongdoing. We need American research and much better branding. One advantage is detransitioning will continue to grow and liberal people mostly agree silently. We have to rebrand quickly though because younger people are captured.
!!
I find the question this episode revolves around rather ironic since Stella herself has stated: “I think we need to be careful in declaring we’re the ‘evidence-based side,’ as most parents seek psychotherapy for their gender distressed kids and psychotherapy doesn’t have a strong evidence base,”
I know people can get trapped in trans because they don't want to defect from what they perceive as an embattled community, even if it feels less and less like they belong. Now it seems like they can be trapped in trans because, having put their family through all the drama, it's hard to backtrack and there may be recrimination or resistance from their parents. Add to these factors the natural desire to be consistent and not say that all that part of their life was a mistake and there's a real gravitational pull to trans that is pretty hard to escape.
.
Expecting those who disavow logic to follow logic isn’t logical
They can dismiss it all they want, they know the truth just like everybody else does, soon enough it will have to end
I have come to realize that social changes take a long time and that medicine tends to adapt itself to societal norms. For example, the negative effects of "the pill" aren't too publicised because it suggests that not all women can be free to have sex without thd risk of having an unintentioned pregnancy. Since the 1960's western societies focus on detaching sex from marrying and having children. The trans movement could have never come about in a world where having children is considered essential to self fullfilment. All that said, I feel very sorry for all trans children and their parents for sll the suffering they go through...
I think we are stuck with this phenomenon for the foreseeable. I hope it gets down-graded to the importance of something like Astrology: In the news (paper) but not "The News".
The three most difficult words to pronounce in the English language: I ... Was .... Wrong.
Of course, it's more than that. It's easy to admit that no, Boston is not further north than Mardrid. But when you've accused people who disagree with you of being hateful and genocidal, and felt it in your bones, the cognitive dissonance of dealing with the fact that no, in fact, they were not, is too much to bear. It has nothing to do with the subject, it's the association of belief with identity. People won't even allow that a single thing they believe is wrong, for fear that the logical conclusion would be that EVERYTHING they believe is wrong. Better to lie to themselves indignantly than to lose their entire belief system.
It's Deirdre of the many sorrows I thought.
If I listed everything I believe in, there would be a few that would conflict with each other.
It’s that realisation that tells me somethings I believe are not actually true.
Can you interview Gabrielle Clark? I just heard her story. She's a desistance coach and helped her daughter who was wanting to transition. She had a lot of good points.
I have a friend like this. Her daughter decided at puberty that she was trans. Daughter ticked every box for the social contagion theory: autistic, mental health issues and her friend group "went trans" all around the same time at about age 11-12.
The daughter comes across as androgynous at best, in looks and behaviour. She's got a goth look going on and mostly wears androgynous clothes. Occasionally she wears dresses and shows her cleavage, wears ear rings etc. I don't see her often so I can't say how often she looks feminine and how often androgynous.
The daughter hasn't done anything medical yet, as far as I know, despite now being 18.
I've always doubted that this particular girl is trans: what do others think?
Munchhausen by proxy. Well if they admit they are wrong, that also admit they were weak about protecting their children. On another note. You know that Randy, at the end, had to concede and pay out the million? Granted, what the gentlemen who proved Randy wrong demonstrated is highly unusual.
Similarly, “Sunk cost fallacy” (or “sunk cost bias”) is the human tendency to accept an irreversible - but preventable - loss and act as if the results are actually tolerable, even beneficial; to minimize the damage done; to avoid admitting a calamitous mistake.
The best way to allow yourself to change your mind is to verbally, out loud, append the statement: "But I'm open to the idea of being wrong, and new evidence can make me change my mind." It's that simple. And FFS, maybe SHUT UP about your deeply held beliefs and stop shoving them in other people's faces? If you are thinking actively, you SHOULD change your deeply held beliefs, because that demonstrates growth and learning from new experiences. Building your whole sense of personhood on What I Believe is like building on a house of cards. Maybe if you didn't introduce yourself by your beliefs, plaster them all over the back bumper of your car, and stick them in your g/d LinkedIn profile, you wouldn't feel like a tool when you have to change them.
I still can't quite take in that people I've known for decades have actually gotten to the point where they are actually in favor of encouraging amputating the penises from seven year old boys and saying things like, "Yeah, but women get raped all the time anyway." It's incredibly depressing how quickly you can make people passionately affirm bullshit that flies in the face of everything they claimed to stand for much less bullshit that is provably wrong.
🙁 Crossed the Rubicon.
Sad.
Yes!!! Im one of those normies!
Order out of chaos.
Faith isn't checkable, this applies to the gender ideology as well as religion. That's the problem, one decides to believe, that's what faith is. And that's why we will never convince most who are already victim.
To a degree I can empathise with the parents. Unless they’re full on “progressive” weirdos they’ve probably given up heaps and spent a lot of money to go down the affirmation route. Then to have the kid go back on it, I can see how that’d be frustrating
Just imagine a doctor who has been been performing MGM (circumcision) on thousands upon thousands of baby boys finding out not only that it isn't harmless, but in fact negatively impacts sexual function, and even mental health.
Yeah... And circumcision was the first instance of medical mutilation, and it's STILL GOING ON. Suffice it to say: people care less about male welfare than they do for that of females.
THAT IS NOT “Mutilation”, you creep. We aren’t “mutilated”. You don’t know what you’re talking about. 🤬
It is absolutely harmless unless the person doing it is incompetent. And there is absolutely NO diminishing function. Are you even male? You don’t know what you’re talking about. I have NEVER had any issues, and what people like you don’t realize, is that some people (not me, but someone I know) have a condition called Phimosis that requires medical intervention, otherwise sex will be painful and risky. That condition is when the skin is too tight and splits with an erection causing bleeding and pain. Not conducive to a healthy sex life.
It seems there are a few kinds of people against male circumcision- (the “female” version IS “mutilation”, as it serves no purpose other than reducing their function)
Those who oppose males, seem to be militant atheists who believe it’s a religious practice, those who think everything should be “natural”, and those who associate it with Judaism, and they hate them, so they want it stopped.
Why don’t you mind your own business?
@@theunknownatheist3815What is your opinion on circumcision outside of the version for medical reasons like yours?
We need scripts & structure for a Post-Trannyhausen-by-Proxy character-arc, for the parents.
C. S. Lewis is very good about this. "Repentance for a sin," in the old Christian jargon, is like "doing a sum," where you have to good all the way back to the place where the original error was made, and re-do from there.
Perhaps you should ask Gordon Guyatt if there such a thing as having "a change of heart" IF you are practicing evidence based medicine (EBM)? Guyatt coined the term (EBM). Perhaps the concept of EBM is meaningless.
Sunk Cost
pride
Disney's also digging in: ua-cam.com/video/7IO-MZFaM_8/v-deo.html&lc=Ugzf7pmyc9v51C9qz-R4AaABAg
❤🇬🇧❌❌
She needs to understand the pain she caused them!
They all seem to self-centered.
Gender dysphoria is a thing, call it gender identity disorder or what have you. It is still very real for a lot of people. If the ROGD and youth transition concerns were changed somehow, there would still be people who experienced gender dysphoria and who would want to transition. We may not understand why, it may be a complicated interaction of C-PTSD and other issues, but the world keeps turning out people like us. I think that hormone therapy and transition may still be the best solution for some of those people, who are able to consent and willing to accept the risks. I don't support transition of youth, but I am extremely grateful for my own transition and access to medical resources that have supported me. Maybe the answer regarding whether it works is to look closer into the people for whom it does work, and who have had a positive outcome. We exist.
I think most people understand there are people who have gender identity disorder. However, it is a mental disorder and should be treated as such. It is pretty shocking that instead of looking for a “cure” if you will, we transition people. It would be much better if we could treat people with medication to help fix whatever is misfiring in the brain, then what we are doing to people now.
@terrie6738 Personally, I would rather transition. I think if there were such a medication, I would have declined it. I think that for many of us, including me, there is no other solution. I think there should be gate keeping to avoid the ROGD that has developed, but for adults like myself, I think transition is a viable treatment option. I think that transition can be a successful treatment and the decision to do so should be between a mature, educated patient and their care team.
@@jeng3609 I had a feeling you would say that. It is interesting that if you had an option to be happy and comfortable the way you were born, you would still rather try to change to look like the opposite sex, which comes with a lot of risks and disadvantages. That really doesn’t make a lot of sense. Definitely something to think about.
@terrie6738 I think that is a good observation and one that I think might answer some questions if you thought about it. What do you think about it? I live it, and I love my life.
@@jeng3609 well, some people with various illnesses don’t want to get better. There are plenty of different reasons why, I think it seems possible that you didn’t/ don’t want to get better, in the sense of accepting/ loving yourself the way you were born. You would rather feel the pain and go through the horrible process of trying to change your gender and continue to be a victim for the rest of your life. Because even if you transition and “passed” as the opposite sex, you would never actually be that sex, therefore you are continuing to punish yourself with these feelings of not being who you believe you should be. Plenty of other reasons as well. But this could definitely fit, as well.
Woah now!!!...where did the mention of ADHD and the suggestion that it's wrong to medicate it come from??...not only is that completely wrong, but it's off topic and completely unnecessary to mention...in the UK kids are under diagnosed not overly diagnosed...as a person with ADHD and a parent of children with ADHD I am massively offended by your suggestion!!!
@@solarydays you clearly don't understand what ADHD actually is...would you call a child with diabetes who is taking insulin "drugged up"??...
If it wasn't for the r.o.g d girls we wouldn't have most of the problems with queer theory etc.
To really deal with this, women have to stop blaming men for the sufferring that is life.
So do men😂
Why do you keep saying gender instead of sex? The word is sex, male and female.
Its to avoid the negative connotations that can go along with it. Its a form of dishonesty.
@@searchingstuff >"Its a form of dishonesty."
But why do you always double down against people who have a different view on this and refuse to speak to them? (Like me)
You're just an echo chamber.
And you clearly feel you need to be the centre of attention and are quite annoyed Stella refuses to play along.
@@VauxhallViva-s8x It's not just me. She won't talk to anyone who doesn't follow her narrative. I'm just the person who stuck their head above the parapet.
The thing they need is Jesus. Because in Jesus we are able to remove the mark and stand naked and ashamed in the presence in The Most High God and not die, but live in His everlasting mercy that is greater than our sins.
If the person refuses Christ, we who agree with Him that all have fallen short of the glory of God, then we can afirm that though we may see differently than them, we are not enemies, so how much more mercy and kindness and understanding is available for who are detransitioning or descussing their remorse with their family and friends. But, even if they are all alone in this world in the Spirit they can be with Jesus. He will never cast anyone out.
If anyone would like scripture references for these thoughts. Ask
The bible mentions eunuchs in several places, never in a negative way.