Trent Horn/Jimmy Akin Vs Samuel Nesan/Dr. Stephen Boyce: How should We Understand Justification?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 13 тра 2024
- #debate #bible #theology #jesuschrist
Samuel Nesan: @ExplainApologetics
Trent Horn: @TheCounselofTrent
Jimmy Akin: @JimmyAkin
Dr. Stephen Boyce: @EarlyChurchFACTS
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUPPORT
Venmo: venmo.com/TheGospel-Truth
Patreon: / thegospeltruth
Paypal: www.paypal.com/paypalme/TheGo...
Fund Raiser - fundly.com/travel-media-equip...
________________________________________________
WEBSITE: tgtengage.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOCIAL
Facebook: / tgtengagingtheculture
Twitter: / thegospeltruth8
Instagram: / the_gospel_truth_
TikTok: / tgtengage
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MERCHANDISE
the-gospel-truth-3.creator-sp...
thegospeltruth.qbstores.com/home
_________________________________________________
GET IN TOUCH
Email: evangelio.alitheia@gmail.com
Hey folks, skip @ 21:20-31:12 point of debate. This is when Jimmy Akin’s audio would not work and was reestablished. Thanks
Sam said that you were going to be upset because of the outcome of the debate. Was he right? He said that Protestantism is dead.
Trent Horn teaming up with Jimmy Akin is crazy. Debating them would be like trying to take on Anakin and Yoda
I would say Jimmy is more like Qui-Gon because in his pursuit of knowledge he asks atypical questions and Trent is more like Obi-Wan because he gives me that vibe.
👍
I approve of this analogy lol they are sharp guys. I enjoyed dialoguing with them.
@@stephenboyce6996God bless you sir!
Yoda and Mace Windu. The two most powerful Jedi.
Akin and Horn together 🔥
Trent and Jimmy together is the greatest apologist superteam ever
Depends on the subject
@garrettwilliams6396.
I would agree that they are indeed excellent debaters. But I thought they stumbled quite badly here.
Jimmy, eager to show that there’s very little difference between Reformed and Catholic thought (and thus little reason not to convert), rushed to concede point after point.
I think they failed on several arguments:
1. There is no demonstrable difference between “one faith” referring to one occurrence and “one baptism” referring to one occurrence. If number of occurrences is in mind. If instead it refers to church consensus on faith…and on baptism…then the verse says nothing at all about the number of occurrences.
2. Catholic dogma itself says that God is co-existent with time and co-existent with his Creation. He is present to his Creatures (and even dwells with them through his incarnation). His timelessness does not make him distant and unapproachable as in Islam and Gnosticism.
3. How can Judas be written in the Book of Life? If Jesus predicted Judas specifically would reign on a throne, then Jesus is a false prophet.
At any rate, I thought they had their troubles. The Protestants were impressive from time to time, but they did a face plant on documenting the historicity of perseverance.
The whole debate on perseverance is almost always botched and muddled…on both sides. Nobody believes that “you” (whoever that might be) cannot lose his salvation. Even the elect are told to “make their calling and election sure.” One can be self-deceived.
There are those who have not believed and have not been baptized. We know they are not saved. There are those who exhibit all the fruits of the Spirit and who die in the faith. We know they are saved. But nobody knows quite what to do with those who lie in between these extremes.
If the elect can fall away, then how were they elect? Can someone be unchosen? What does that even mean? Does God make mistakes? (Whoops! How did YOU get through my screening process?)
If the regenerate can fall away, then how were they regenerate? Can the New Creature die??? Again, it sounds like God doesn’t know what he’s doing.
But the whole thing is so incredibly muddled-to this very day. So why would we expect the fathers to be clear on it?
Peter and Paul were pretty good too.
@@ieroergoFair enough
Wow, Jimmy Akin is fire!!!! Trent is great too!🔥🔥🔥🔥
Pray for Christian unity and love.
@@sonsofpolaris6102there are degrees of unity. Every mass the priest prays for more unity (and more peace!)
35:00
Yes, Catholics can affirm we are saved by faith alone.
The primary difference between Protestants and Catholics is justification. Protestants believe justification is a one-time event. Catholics believe there is continuous growth in justification.
The Bible supports the continuous process of justification. It recorded three events where God justified Abraham.
I'm Catholic but one interesting critique from many savvier Protestants is they say that Catholics conflate justification amd sanctification
What're your thoughts on this
Scripture makes no category distinction such as this.
This distinction is a Protestant notion invented by them for their soteriology.
Neither Catholics nor Orthodox have any obligation to accept Prot terms or framework.
30:22 Jimmy begins opening statement
Thank you!
My Catholic brothers, and two favourite apologists!! Can’t wait to watch this one
Tbh, I'm just thrilled the debate was so amicable and honest. I wish more debates between Christians were like this! Mutual respect goes a long way towards open ears.
This was a great exchange. As a former Presbyterian and then Anglican (now Catholic), I appreciate hearing from all of these sides. I appreciate the charity shown on all sides. I have to say though, Trent ratcheted the exchange up from a conversation to a true debate, and unpacked a brilliant expose on the historic and Catholic view of the issue. Well done!
When both sides define their terms, you know its going to be a great debate.
Hey the next time can you ask Jimmy and Trent to announce they'll go live on their youtube community tabs? I would have loved to be here, I'm subscribed to both of their channels but I wasn't told they'd appear here
The Protestant side was unable to assert that Catholics preach a false gospel. One of them acknowledged the concept of post-death purification and that baptismal regeneration was a widely held belief in the early church. They disagreed on the idea that a Christian can lose their salvation. However, Samuel's acknowledgment that Judas was a true apostle contradicts the claim that one cannot lose their salvation.
I'd say there's tension but no contradiction in the view that an Apostle was never saved.
@@tafazziReadChannelDescription what do you mean by tension?
@@gto2111 two statements A and B are in tension with eachother if, taking A by itself, you'd reasonably infer not-B.
For example, in catholicism you have these two statements
A: John 3:16 is true (For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.)
B: belief is not enough for eternal life
This is a tension but not a contradiction, because you can understand John 3:16 in a way that includes the importance of grace and cooperation with grace, even though it's not obvious.
@@tafazziReadChannelDescription It's not "tension" or contradiction in the bible. The false interpretation causes a "contradiction". Samuel contradicted himself and misinterpret scripture.
@@gto2111 there's plenty of tension in the Bible, that's what makes it hard to interpret.
On Purgatory I think there's just no way around it, his position includes a contradiction, but the thing about Judas is no more than a tension.
I liked hearing from the fathers rather than JUST hearing about them. Very nice!
Great show Marlon. God bless you brother. Big names. Hoping for more to come.
Would be awesome to get Dr James White on here for a debate ...💥
I like there type of talks better then formal debates
I think what's missed in this discussion is that Faith Alone is the second part of how we are saved. We are saved by _grace_ through faith (Ephesians 2:8).
So we are saved by Grace Alone and we receive this grace _through_ Faith Alone.
You can’t win a debate against two of the GOATs. Trent and Akin… That just isn’t fair 😂
55:30
I am glad Jimmy quoted Eph 2:10. Good works are not fruits of our faith. They are created by God to cooperate in love. Ephesians shows that God created Good Works and not our faith.
Good works can't be fruits of our faith if our faith did not produce those works.
Jimmy and Trent!!
Thank you for talking kindly to each other 👍. While nominal Catholics are easy to refute, strong Catholics are very hard to refute without hardening one’s heart ♥️ like Pharaoh. I urge therefore all strong Catholic apologists to exercise extreme humility and leniency towards our Protestant brothers and sisters. If we as faithful Catholics have a problem with Pope Francis, what would we have done in the 16th century with all the abuse in Rome? Nevertheless, I encourage Protestants to return home to the fulness of truth and the holy sacrifice of the Mass. You will miss the best God has for you otherwise 🙏 an ex-Pentecostal Elder an convert to the Catholic Church 🥰
Can you tell me about you being born again?
Faith if it has not works is dead being alone.
Holy Scripture teaches after death, we shall each be held accountable for every careless word we have uttered and shall each be judged as we have judged others, as we shall each be liable to judgment if angry with others and we shall each receive recompense for BOTH the good AND THE BAD we have done in the body, as we must all strive for that holiness without which no one shall see the Lord! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!
It was less of a debate but more like the Catholics teaching the Protestants their own faith. And the Protestant side seemed to be not in lockstep
Cool channel
Well they need to iron out the moderation and the computer glitches. The cowboys was unable to present his visual aides because of the hosts technical issues.
However, the overall experience was still impressive, given the guests vast knowledge, and I shouldn’t complain.
I can't wait for the red pill conversation. I have an issue od how they view manhood and sex.
How who views manhood?
Akin repeated his argument that used with Jimmy
Please have Dr. Robert Sungenis in your channel for a debate.
Nah he spends his time misrepresenting the magisterium. Evolution and heliocentrism are clearly compatible with the Faith
Catholics won hands down. Their belief and teaching weaved in and out together like a beautiful tapestry. Why? Because they are united!!! The two protestants don't even agree with each other. A Baptist and Anglican. And it showed.....but it was a civil discussion. Great job 👏
A house divided can’t stand
By one offering he is perfected them that are sanctified once and for all, Christ work has made us perfect he is our sanctification and righteousness through faith
34:35 Abraham justified by faith, it was accounted to him as righteousness and he became the friend of God. Abraham was glad to see Jesus His day and he rejoiced.
Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
At trial on judgement day
@@t.d6379 Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
@@jamessheffield4173 do you know who put the chapters and verses into the bible you are quoting happily from?
@@t.d6379 Robert Stephanus (aka Robert Estienne) created a verse numbering system in the mid-16th century and was the first person to print a Bible with verse numbers in each chapter. The chapter and verse numbers we know and love today are direct descendants of these systems. Bing search
@@jamessheffield4173😂👍🏿
@tgtengage 6:22 Why was Trent Horn (@TheCounselofTrent) presented as “Roman Catholic”? 🤔 I’m pretty sure he’s a Byzantine Catholic or Ruthenian Catholic to be precise.
Also, IMHO it’s weird to say to which particular liturgical traditions of the Catholic Church Jimmy and Trent belong, but then to present Dr Stephen and Samuel only generically as “Protestant”. 😅 Thanks for hosting the debate, though! 🤗
@@mbalickiyou have different rites but one church.
Different liturgical rites does not automatically invalidate underlying theology.
Little disingenuous on the Catholic side bringing up every other topic outside of justification - seems they had some agenda there.
Apart from that, amazing discussion would love to hear more.
What do you mean? Doctrines of purgatory, baptism, eternal security are all affected by one's understanding of justification.
Protestant ask questions and Catholics give full on answers. Catholics ask questions, Protestants are limited to yes or now answers and are interrupted when trying to elaborate.
He need justification from dewhite
1:28:15
It was said that Good works in Ephesians 2:10 is the product of faith. They can't be a product if they were not created by faith.
A product is a thing that is produced. How does faith produce Good Works if those works were already produced by God? Ephesians 2:10 says this.
Gal 5.22-23 KJV
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith
23 Meekness, temperance : against such there is no law.
Saving faith is a fruit of the Spirit and, along with every other fruit, is worked in the believer as God see's fit (see Mat 13.8).
Wine is a product of the vine, but by itself the vine cannot make wine, something else is needed
It is troubling to hear that both Samuel and Stephen both think baptismal regeneration is not a false gospel. It is a false gospel. You are not regenerated through your baptism. You are regenerated by being born again by the Spirit of God.
Those two are stooges. Stephen started out as a Reformed Baptist plant, now he’s an Anglican, and tomorrow he’ll be a Roman Catholic. He’s a shill.
The one baptism objection around 2:27:40 or so was pretty interesting.
I’d like to hear your thoughts. Sadly, we didn’t get into it more due to time but I wasn’t satisfied with his answer. Btw I hold to one baptism as well I was merely asking for consistency.
@@stephenboyce6996 As a protestant I believe in One True Baptism. But I do believe that when you voluntarily fall away from faith and loss your grace with God, it would be perhaps a good idea to get re-baptized. “Believe and be Baptized” was said in acts on how to be a christian, so to be a Christian again could be that same formula. But I dont think other baptisms are needed though.
@@dennycascade7455 the problem with that view is that a “re-baptism” after a valid baptism is a sacrilege, and has been deemed so since at least the third century. Thankfully, the Church, provides remedy for those that have been validly baptized and later reject their faith; the Sacrament of Penance, which includes repenting of your sins and asking of God’s forgiveness.
I'm so sick of protestants trotting out this totally dumb saying "but if you can lose eternal life then it was never eternal in the first place". God that is so insufferable.... ofcourse it is eternal bc its source is eternal...it does not follow that the receiver is equally eternal in keeping it. They equate the Giver with the reciever. They make the receiver equal to the gift. NO! The gift itself doesn't fail. The reciever can fail to keep it. Just bc the reciever fails is no insult or downgrade of the gift itself. Sorry. I had to let that out.
The receiver is not equal to the gift....but who is?
@@michellecheriekjv4115we don't deserve gift. No one deserved it. And not everyone can keep it.
Satan had eternal life until he rebelled and got kicked out of Heaven.
Justification: gentiles to whom a covenant with God never existed now have an opportunity with their faith in Jesus Christ.
That's it. The door is open. It's not salvation, it's an opportunity for salvation
Beautifully put...
How is that justification?
@@chanano1689
Because prior to Christ's passion God only had a covenant with the Jews, they were his people and he was their God.
With Christ, it became all nations, starting with the gentiles.
@@eddardgreybeard in those terms their justification was done through lamb getting slaughtered. However, in these terms the Lamb of God is perfect to cover all my sins and the priest is sitting down.
@@chanano1689
Believing he was the Lamb is justification. His blood is the new covenant, one extended to all nations, not just the Jews.
*Hallelujah!!!! The daily jesus devotional has been my a huge part of my transformation, God is good 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻was owning a loan of $47,000 to the bank for my son's brain surgery (David), Now I'm no longer in debt after I invested $12,000 and got my payout of m $270,500 every months,God bless Christy Fiore🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸..*
Thanks to my co-worker (Alex) who suggested Ms Christy Fiore.
She's a licensed broker in the states 🇺🇸
After I raised up to 325k trading with her I bought a new House and a car here in the states 🇺🇸🇺🇸 also paid for my son's surgery (Oscar). Glory to God.shalom.
Wow that's nice She makes you that much!! please is there a way to reach her services, I work 3 jobs and trying to pay off my debts for a while now!!
Please help me.
Hi that's good you have idea &share to those who deserve it that's great god bless🙏🙏
The Catholic position is double speak... He said that the Catholic Church affirms "faith alone," so long as you define saving faith as "faith + works." Just ridiculous...
Do you think you can have true faith without it been manifested in works?
@@augustuslc True faith is evidenced by works, but works themselves play no part in justification. This was James' point in James 2:14-26, he was making a distinction between those who merely claimed to have faith as opposed to those who had a genuine faith. Catholics believe that justification requires (among other things) participation in the "sacraments" as a means of obtaining the grace of God - it is this kind of an emphasis on works that is anathematized by scripture.
@@lawrencestanley8989 Are you saved by Mentally Ascent Faith Alone or Saving Faith Alone?
@@AlbertoKempis No one is saved by faith, rather, Jesus saves individuals through faith; see the emphasis? Faith is not the impetus and basis of salvation, Jesus is (John 6:37-44) - grace is the root of salvation, and faith is merely one of the fruits that it produces, through which the blessings of God are received. The error of the Catholic Church (and many others) is in thinking that faith (or faith + works) is a prerequisite that God first looks for in someone before he will save them (choice meats), but this is not what scripture teaches.
Man is saved by God's grace alone through the instrumental means of the faith that He Himself gives us in regeneration; genuine faith being evidenced by good works.
@@lawrencestanley8989I take it your Calvinist…are you saying that people who don’t have faith in Christ it is just because it wasn’t given to them? Why have any prescribed passages in the Bible at all if that’s the case. Just let your will get taken over by God as long as your elected to it
At 14:10, this may be a quibble, but he states that "this saving faith alone is the basis of our justification before God." Now, since faith is supplied to man by God (John 6:29), faith is not the basis of our justification, but the instrumental means of our justification, with Christ as the basis of our justification. While the scriptures declare that we are saved "by" and "through" faith, they never state that we are saved "because" of our faith - this is a huge difference that separates Christians from all other works-based heresies, so we have to be careful.
MR. AKIN WAS ALLOWED TO TAKE MOST OF HIS QUESTIONING TIME EXPLAINING THINGS. NOT FAIR.
Guess the cross examiners need to learn how to control their examinations.
@@sonsofpolaris6102 he’s crying in caps but he is o so patient. So we just need to give him a little time.
@@LetsgoB actually it’s the moderators job to do that. It looks bad for the participants to yell over each other to gain the floor. Questions are suppose to be asked under a minute and answers given under a minute. This was enforced later but not in the first cross-examination
Roman Catholics can loose salvation but not to genuine Christians.
Catholics are the genuine Christians. Protestants delude themselves to believe they are the genuine Christians and that they can't lose their Salvation. I hope they approach God on the day of their death in good favor and He judges them faithful and welcomes them to heaven. However, my fear is that too many believe they are saved while practicing wicked things throughout their lives while also lacking in love (good works). You don't know for sure until that day you are judged and you will be judged by your works.
Genuine Christians are those who came 1500 years after the death of Christ and introduced liberal theological innovations outside orthodox teachings?
Samuel sucks as a debater
And you suck in charity in your comment as a Christian
He was there to learn not to argue. A very Christian trait.
@@alisterrebelo9013 Hi, do you mean @Ha-Elyon or Samuel?
@@swim96ful I was talking about Samuel being there to learn.
@@alisterrebelo9013 Got you, my previous comment got deleted somehow. I agree with you totally. I dont appreciate the way @Ha-Elyon commented on Sam. Besides, Christian debates shouldnt be about who's won or who's lost. You can be wrong and win a debate just because you are more eloquent. Then, even if you are right and win a debate, but dont win someone's heart, you lost it. Jesus didnt try to debate, but to change people's hearts.
James is not written to the Church = James 1:1
These believers are not saved yet = James 2:14/James 5:19,20
These believers need Works and Faith to be declared righteous = James 2:24
That's not what Paul says about the Church = Rom 4:1-6
“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings. Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,”
James 1:1-2
It’s for the Church and they are called brothers… so this is awkward
U have to remember all the books of the NT are not written to us. So the Bible was not written to us, but is for us. So with your own personal standard, u have to recognize that Philippians 1:6; that he who began a good work in u will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
This was written to the church of the Philippians only. So then this is not for u either then. If u are still going to reject the book of James too.
U need to stop parroting this argument, & realize that you're erroneous. Bc with your own standard can be used against u, with other NT books.
But all the books of the Bible are not written to us, but all the books are for us as an example, on what to do, & what not to do. Just has all the OT books were written to Jews in Israel only. But we still follow them for our salvation.
Bc Christ did not come here to condemn the law he came here to fulfill it period. That's why we follow the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.
Thats why St. Paul says we are not saved by works, bc its about the works/ law of Moses.
So if u want to reject the book of James. U still have to deal with the letters of Peter, John, & Jude. That were only written to certain people in the 1st century.
But still states we have to be faithful, an ongoing continual process for our salvation.
Bc there's sins we can commit after we believe in Christ, that will cause us Spiritual death. But if we commit sins, we can pray to have our sins forgiven= 1 John ch 1, ch 2, ch 3. Basically all the letters of John. Even the gospel of John.
It's a horrible argument. Even Martin Luther never said this. What Martin Luther said was, how James is not a canonical book, It's actually an Epistle of straw. Bc it contradicted his ideologies, & his definition of Sola fide.
@@chanano1689exactly 🙏🏼🎯💯
@chanano
Who are the 12 tribes in the bible?
Verses to support brethren can be Israel.
👉Hebrews 2:16,17 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his (brethren), that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
👉Acts 2:29 Men and (brethren), let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
@BYZANTINEFINEST
Ephesians 4:4 There is (one body), and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
👉The (one body) here is the Church.
Ephesians 1:22,23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
👉We need to rightly divide the word of truth to understand = 2Timothy 2:15 King James bible.