TSBB 63 - Ecological Approach vs Progressive Resistance with Greg Souders & Priit Mihkelson
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- In this episode of The Sonny Brown Breakdown, we are joined by two expert grappling coaches - Greg Souders of Standard Jiu Jitsu and Priit Mihkelson of Defensive BJJ - for an in-depth discussion on training methodologies.
Greg advocates for an ecological approach to learning BJJ, while Priit comes from a background utilizing progressive resistance. They debate the merits and drawbacks of each methodology, analyzing how to best develop skills and teach students.
It's a thought-provoking dialogue between two passionate, innovative coaches on the cutting edge of grappling instruction and practice design.
KeyTopics Include:
The constraints-led perspective on motor learning vs. traditional step-by-step technique instruction.
Can you accurately prescribe levels of intensity and resistance? Is there such a thing as "maximum effort"?
Teaching the foundational functions of BJJ positions and techniques rather than specific movements.
How to structure training sessions and games to elicit desired skills.
The redundancy across sports once fundamentals are deeply understood.
- Balancing broad generalities with targeted specifics when coaching.
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0:00:00 Introduction To Episode 63
0:04:02 The ecological approach vs. constraint-led approach
0:11:35 Playing the full game of Jiu-Jitsu
0:16:05 Organizing class structure and time allocation
0:23:39 Shifting coaching style to ecological from traditional teaching.
0:34:30 Introduction to Tarikoplata and its teaching approach
0:41:55 Traditional teaching frustrations and the importance of function
1:00:32 Discussion on the different interpretations and uses of drilling.
1:09:30 The current approach to training is ineffective
1:23:20 The use of specific constraints in training
1:30:36 Further questions about the Tarikoplata
1:38:09 Critique of the cultural constraints in jiu-jitsu
1:44:46 The Jiu-Jitsu community copying John Danaher's information
1:50:18 Training intensity without being able to define maximum effort
1:55:00 Rethinking the definition of teaching Jiu-Jitsu techniques
2:00:18 Conclusion with Priit Mihkelson & Greg Souders
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#sonnybrownbreakdown #ecologicalapproach #gregsouders #priitmihkelson
What Souders is trying to explain is basically what skateboarders or freestyle BMX or other X games athletes do. They "play" together an continually experiment with new things and pushing and pushing these things until they become more intricate. Take freestyle motocross... first they were whipping the motorcycle around off the jumps. Then they started doing a back flip, then a double back flip, and now they are doing front flips...on a motorcycle!!! No one taught this...they had to explore and experiment and continually fail until they succeed, BTW....I love Priit...he changed my defensive BJJ game and it came with minimal "techniques" and more with concepts.
While there is SO much value in what's going on academically here, I find it apt to note that you can also have a great time and break up the monotony by focusing on Sonny's face/reactions to the talking points. It's low-key gold
If Priit is struggling with what his job is as a coach I feel much better about how much I struggle applying ecological dynamics to my team.
What things have you figured out? I'm trying to learn also....
I feel like it's impossible for me
That was a fantastic conversation, gentlemen. Thanks for hosting it Sonny it was great to hear Prit asking intelligent questions in a genuine effort to understand the ED approach to coaching and Greg answering with his usual mix of knowledge and passion. 😂
Love these guys. Both Greg & Priit are so approachable & generous, sharing their knowledge with anyone who reaches out to them. Both are challenging many of the assumptions in grappling, pushing it to new levels.
As for coaching, I'm definitely struggling to understand and apply the ecological approach. I've been reading the books, listening to Greg on various podcasts, studying his UA-cam & Instagram material, and comparing notes with fellow coaches who are also experimenting with it. But I still feel like a white belt who wants to understand jiu-jitsu right now. I've been practicing jiu-jitsu for over 13 years and it's taken me a long time to get comfortable with the inherent patience required. But it's still daunting to think I'm only at the starting line in that journey when it comes to coaching. It's fair to say I'm out of my comfort zone.
Luckily, I've got local friends and acquaintances, like Darren Pinard, Matt Kwan, and Kabir Bath, who are on this same journey and happy to share their experiences.
Great episode, love Greg's approach and Priit's openness and curosity.
Sonny's expressions were a bit of a giveaway to how he felt during the interview lol
Haha it was very late for me and I was just enjoying it.
Fantastic conversation. I love Greg's attitude and approach to the sport that we all love. And Priit's inquisitive nature. He has been a catalyst for me since 2017, how we should question the subject of a coaches approach to bjj. I learned a lot from this. Thank you Sonny!!
Couldn't agree more! Glad you enjoyed it !
One of the truly great jiujitsu conversations/interviews. Greg is an extraordinarily generous and revolutionary teacher, Priit is a brilliant innovator and joke teller, and Sonny is the perfect mediator. Bravo, hope this the first of many 🙌👏
Priit has let us down lately with the good jokes. Come on Priit we know you have more jokes in the bag 😄
Thank you, very kind words!
Very interesting discussion. Thank you Sonny for hosting!
Was alright. I think the discussion you had on it a while back was far better.
You mean when they completely misrepresented and misunderstood the ecological approach?@@joeymoneymo
No problem !
Yesss, this is the kind of crossover I need in my life :") Thanks for making this podcast happen guys, amazing discussion.
Thank you!
This is excellent! Just listening to this conversation makes me realize how little I know about jiujitsu, let alone teaching. Talk about lighting a fire.
Glad it was helpful!
Something Greg said about how imagine we went all the way back in time before grappling knowledge and we said “let’s fight”. He says that we would look, try it, discuss it, ask questions. So one form of learning is discussion and demonstration. I think when Priit brings up the tarikoplata I think the question that was not answered was about how Greg sees the role of discussion and demonstration in his teaching. He briefly touched on teaching to concepts but I would’ve liked to have heard more about how Greg uses dialogue or conversations as teaching instruments.
Excellent conversation, I love this format! Thanks to Sonny, Priit and Greg for doing this, I hope something similar can be done again in the future.
Glad you enjoyed it, will hope to do more in the future.
Question to Greg: what are you optimizing for in your classes? Is it fastest learning, best outcome, highest student retention, maximum competition results?
Really interested to understand the bigger goal you ate setting out for yourself, your gym.
PS fascinating stuff, thank you for being so open in sharing.
Efficient and effective skill acquisition which produces a quality of behavior that is both flexible and adaptable
@@gregsouders9648 nice and clear. From a student retention or general “enjoyment doing jiujitsu” could you share your experience of how your current approach fairs versus the “traditional” class structure?
If students enjoy the rigor of skill acquisition and enjoy embracing the demands of live training I will retain them. If they don’t, then I wont. West-side Barbell has a smaller student base than Planet Fitness.
@@gregsouders9648 thanks, makes sense.
Loved what Greg said about the cultural constraint of buying instructional, it takes away the idea of thinking intuitively. To me there is nothing more magical than thinking I can come up to the answer of a problem myself rather than it being behind a pay wall.
@44:55 does anyone have a link to the video where (partybear) Ed Ingamells is comparing Gordan Ryan instructional vs Gordon Ryan competition?
I'm trying to find this too. Have you found it?
Nope, no luck.
I am looking for that too. Any luck?
Wonderful episode - thanks to all three of you 🙏
Please hold a hardcore debate with someone who does not agree with greg
I’m an early adopter and have been implementing this in my academy. It works.
As for a coaches conference, that’s what competition is for.
Loving these podcast with Greg, so much information.
Glad you enjoy it!
I am also having existential issues after 8 years.
Giving ideas, reinforcing attention and intention.
Keeping people on target with the constraints.
At times, I will teach a single tool or function to a student specifically for that student relevant to their observed abilities.
I like how Greg talks and I recently started to feel like there is a correlation between belt levels (time training) and resistance to the idea of changes in coaching methodology
“8 years of coaching “
Great discussion!
Cheers !
I am telling you all that this is how the best wrestling rooms in the country are training. People shitting on Priit or Greg are going to be left behind, and they are flailing instead of working to fix their gym. The traditional way of training jiujitsu is fucking stupid. You get a room full of mediocre or worse people who get beat up by the standouts that could succeed anywhere under any circumstances. Then the arrogant coaches pat themselves on the back because they think they are doing a good job. Congratulations, less than 1% of the clients are good. Wow... 🙄
Very interesting topic. I'm trying to get my head around this ecological approach. It's not easy as it requires letting go of a lot of previous learned assumptions and states. But question for Mr Souders: How would you handle large difference in skill/ attributes between athletes in your games? Wouldn't you have one person always winning the games? Or would you pair the participants with similar skill/ physical attributes? thank you so much
Take that away from them. For example Handfighting in Standing Position, If one person is stronger or a wrestler put the person on a Yoga Ball. Otherwise theres also the Idea of a designated Winner.
I started to view techniques and drills as suggested starting routes that could develope from the initial position and encouraged my training partners to resist while drilling.
I think I started to do that when I got bored in training and on seminars. It accelerated a lot since I heard of the ecological approach, its great.
Fantastic!
I am 50min in and there has been some difficulty with communication and Greg and Priit talking past each other. I would solve that by asking Greg two questions:
1. When students are watching videos online, see new things and bring these to the gym - does it make their bjj better, is it a good thing? I assume that the answer is yes.
2. What does it matter where the useful information/ideas came from, from the Internet or the coach? Wouldn't it be better if such useful information would be given to all and with skill, instead of trusting in Universe's randomness and that eventually the useful info will get to the students? It might (or may not) but it is definitely not the most efficient way (and the coach's main job is to supercharge learning). Are you really not teaching students figure-four and grip breaking and instead are just waiting for them to figure it out themselves? So what are you for then? You might as well just close people in the gym, wait outside and trust that through internal evolution eventually competent grapplers will emerge from within the gym.
I struggled with these questions for a while and still have some doubts about the most effective methodology. It has been explained to me that very often if you teach someone a specific movement pattern to combat your opponents the person will often get a type of tunnel vision that will impact their own bodies ability to problem solve effectively. There are far too many variables in grappling so it’s best to teach from the perspective of overarching concepts than rigid movement patterns. I hope that helped and didn’t further confuse.
@@ssssaintmarcus
Yes, that's why SBG's 3p (position, pressure, possibilities) exist and rocks.
great conversation
who is the person that compared Gordon Ryan DVDs to what he does in matches? Is this video available somewhere? I missed the name, and now can't find that bit in the video.
Awesome conversation!
I'm struggling with how I can use this with striking? I'm fascinated and believe I use some restraint based concepts already. The linguistics are confusing and breaking down the mechanics of striking without demonstration or"teaching " is hard to conceptualize.
Aliveness101 is the answer.
at 44:50 who was Greg talking about here? I cannot seem to find the guy he's referencing
Ed Ingamells
@@gregsouders9648 thanks Greg
@@KierenLefevreyou’re welcome
I want to hear Greg Souders thoughts on Ryan Hall and John Danaher.
I’ve been largely inspired by Greg and read through a lot of the source material.
I’m not sure he’s using the term “meta-stability” correctly in this episode.
A metastable athlete is one that can switch between multiple solutions without an attractor or detractor.
A metastable situation would be one where multiple solution can compete equally for an outcome.
I feel like he’s using it to describe a situation where his athletes would be a tactical advantage.
I’m not certain that context is within the spirit of the term, however if anything that would be a meta unstable position, as it would be outcompeting other strategies and thus advantageous.
I am using it appropriately. I am referring to a meta stable region in state space that “allows the agent to rapidly switch from exploiting already familiar action possibilities to exploring novel possibilities when this is what the situation demands”
But please keep checking me. I’m trying to get better at using the terminology when giving examples of application
@@gregsouders9648 I listened to that portion a second time and I think I may have just misunderstood.
You’re putting students in metastable engagements and the adding constraints (keep their legs from getting double inside position) which allows them to use/create novel solutions to ultimately create advantage from the situations. (?)
I had originally thought you were claiming that the specific task of preventing double inside position was metastable in itself.
We use these same terms in game balance theory (way different context than Ecological psychology) and we refer to strategies that outcomes others as meta-unstable.
Thanks for all the content Greg, I have benefited greatly as a coach from exposure to your ideas.
You’re welcome sir. This stuff is not easy to apply and it can be even more confusing to explain in perfectly clear terms (especially since I’m approaching these complex concepts as a layman). I truly appreciate people calling me on my shit so I can reexamine what I think I understand. So thank you for the engagement.
We need greg Souders on Bjj Globetrotters
That would be cool 😎
I’m a destination…and I don’t trot 😘
@@gregsouders9648 Either way. Just to have somebody like you interact with minds like Priit Mihkelson and Chris paines on podcast is I believe what we all been looking for and needed. Before Priit and Chris I just had this feeling inside that something was wrong in the way we learn and teach Jiu Jitsu but i just couldnt put my finger on it. Now i believe you are that final piece in tying in what those guys kind of have been trying to do.
Brilliant video
I am wondering if Greg would put Keenan in the same bucket with the rest of the Atos guys. What about J.T. Torres? I guess they were also Loyd Irvin guys so that definitely shaped their respective games.
Keenan got kicked out of Atos for doing his own thing and by not adhering to their style of training (amongst other reasons). JT is an individual wherever he goes. I wouldn’t refer to him as an “Atos” guy. There are outliers in every gym who break the mold. I’m only referring to the means as I see it.
Great podcast. Greg is spicy in this one lol
Part of coaching is to help people imagine or conceive of the possibility space. An example technique could do that - if it's grounded in theory of practice and taken as a reference and not as a prescription?
Can someone link to the Party Bear vid on Gordon Ryan? Cheers 🤙
Nice!
Thank you! Cheers!
Thanks so much
Seems like the future jiujitsu seminar will be a coaching seminar…
In some ways they should be haha
Please do a coaches conference. 🙏
On the question of:
“What is my value as a coach”
Outside of properly designing the “games”, If information is direct than wouldn’t you provide exponentially more value to your room by making yourself part of the environment and playing all the “games”.
Certainly way more value than standing on the side observing.
I understand that at first you must make sure students stay on task but once the room has bought in (which mine did eventually) should you not just participate?
No, its important to see whats going on in the room. Craig Jones answered the Question, whats the Main diffrence between Danaher and Galvao, that Danaher Sees your problem for Galvao you have to explain it. Same thing with the Games.
Mr. Souders; If I understand your philosophy correctly, your students learn through implicit emergence? Is there a drawback for students who learn new information better with kinesthetic, tactile or auditory as opposed to just visual? (Watching video or others rolling) Again, please don’t let me miss characterize your approach. If it is in-fact students progressing through implicitly “feeling” the positions, is it not just quicker to teach them explicit systems? It seems to me like if we go all the way back to Gracie Jiu Jitsu Combatives it was easier for new people to understand as opposed to something like Rickson’s “invisible JiuJitsu.” Another cursory observation would be looking at Danaher’s systems, their success, and how other schools copy and implement them… as opposed to an older, more archaic approach like “only the strong survive and eventually people get good.” Any feedback is greatly appreciated and I look forward to your viewpoint.
The theory of "different people have drastically different learning styles" has been debunked. Read on it.
The best teaching should be combinig all the "teaching styles" into one: showing the position, talking and narrating every move (properly, not useless "first you do this and then you do this"; "this" must be explained), demonstrating physically.
So where do we start?
What is the base?
Only the pins and what is a guard? Why? Pins in wrestling and jitsu/judo are different.
Can't they emerge on their own from nothing?
Do we show figure four control(not the tarikoplataor version, I get it) or does it emerge on its own?
Start playing with it, its really not that complicated
if people would pick up a book and actually try to understand it then what Greg is saying makes a lot of logical sense and is already really dumbed down. I really can't see how you could simplifying it anymore without losing its meaning. Simplifying it in the first place is what causes people to just misunderstand it as "oh it's just fancy way of saying situational sparring we already do that"
I’m falling into this pit. I’ve already made a few mistakes trying to “dumb it down”. Understanding this stuff is difficult enough but trying to explain it to those who haven’t tried to understand it is even worse.
@@gregsouders9648 yeah I saw your instagram story about that dude who didn't like what he heard so he just called people morons, cultists, and used terms like click bait, marketing scheme etc. Only to decide to pick up the books after he heard what he DID like hearing in a podcast. How can you say those things about people and make strong statements like that without even trying to research or understand the subject in the first place?
That what's called willful ignorance and its too common in BJJ. What would've happened if nobody spoon fed him info that he liked to hear ever? then he'll just continue to claim those falsehoods?
You can lead a horse to water…
who is Party Bear, neuroscientist? mentioned at 44:49
His name is Ed Ingemalls and I think his explanation of Eco/CLA is much better. He's much more pragmatic and doesn't get caught up in semantics. He's an excellent communicator. I would also recommend listening to the Talent Equation Podcast and Kabir Bath's youtube for great conversations around this topic.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Don’t understand what he means by understanding the function. Function of eg sweep is obvious, no?
Meta stable region … When Greg is speaking of leg locks , he mentions starting from beginning , denying the inside position , then working from end , having students work out of leg positions back to controlling inside position. How will his students know how to proper positioning, control, connection, resetting , and submission? Yes, you can do the same idea for the attacker, say, hold on to the leg and stay tight or deny inside position, there is no way for person escaping to feel what a good leg locker will do to deny their escape . I understand that’s the game, but it still seems there has to be an understanding of leg locks, not just simple concepts . Yes , infinite variables, but there are specific techniques that can counter an escape. I’m a big believer in principles and concepts , and understanding the why not the how, but there is an element of specific technique that still needs to be taught.
Why? Did someone figure these techniques out initially??? Who says the leg techniques you know right now are the best and won’t become obsolete with time? I don’t think you really get what he is saying or doing.
In reality some people have had more time on the track, and those people force you to create better solutions. Even if you have a similar general skill level as your training partner you won't be up skilling at the same rate as your partner in specific skills, so the skill gradient will drive improvement between you.
Leg Locks are based in simple concepts. Go watch enter the system from Danaher. He First explains the Key Principals. Then the Main Problems and their easy solutions. The people are Not idiots, they will Figure out the turnout Problem or shared Spiral Problem. I mean, you Only have two Options, left or right and Only one works. Its Not Rocket science.
There are painting of Romans doing heel hooks to each other. It’s not as complicated as we make it out to be
@@Breeze954 Its literally not, i make game practice 1 hr 4 days a week outside of class with my daughter, and she a 13 year old went from being timid about entering ashi, to transitiong between ashi, 5050, inverting, reverse x, 80 20 honey hole, she is now figuring out k guard entries and false reaps, ecological practice is legit 100% it works.
Has anyone got any leads to this Party Bear phD? Googled but led to nowhere. Much appreciated 👍
His name is Ed Ingamells, if you google that you will find other discussions with him.
@@thesonnybrownbreakdown Thank you Sonny
[edit] Now I know what Priit is doing [edit] It's absolutely wild to hear the same sort of resistance to what Greg is doing from Priit, when Priit gets the same sort of resistance to his teachings, and before that, Matt Thornton got absolutely the same sort of resistance to his ideas of "Aliveness" and progressive resistance. The cycle goes on and on.
Glad to see Priit has left SBG, they're ~YIKES~ levels of boomer q-anon brain poison now.
I like Gregs Approach very much, but that dude needs to work on his patience and ego.
It’s also difficult to get past Greg’s delivery. Eco training could be better represented without arrogance and hostility at times.
Dude are you high, the amount of arrogance and hostility this guy gets for just saying what he believes is astronomical, the truth is the truth if it hurts feelings oh well, once this catches on its inevitable thats how all truth is.
It’s difficult to hear reality, tough to reconcile wasted time
I am 50min in and there is not a single instance of arrogance or hostility. Provide time stamps or gtfo with your gaslighting!
I feel like an idiot listening to Greg..