Ya.... I fired an L85A2 when I was cross training with the Royal Marines.... don't get me wrong, it was kinda nice how short it was compared to my pike of an M16A4 but even without a laser and light (which my m16 had a Peq15 that was issued and a streamlight I bought for it) it weighed considerably more. Also Brock would lose his teeth if he ever shot an L85, they aren't ambi at all, you shoot them right handed or you get to go to the dentist.
@@MrRedrooster53 Interesting. As someone in the same boat, i shoot right handed, and since i have an optic or at least a red dot, i don't really need my dominant eye to be doing the main work. Only time it matters is for Iron sites, and for that on a pistol, i ust my right hand it hold it to my left eye, i don't even think about it anymore.
I grabbed a hellion last year on a whim. It's like my 29th gun, so it's far removed from any kind of practical considerations. I have some notes on it from using it in several 2gun and rifle matches. In no particular order: Mine doesn't work at all with gen 2 pmags. But metal GI mags, lancer mags, and gen 3 pmags work fine. I ate shit in the first match I ran it in due to bringing gen 2 pmags. That sucked. Redeemed at the next match bringing GI mags and came in 9th overall. The LOP with the stock fully collapsed was fine for my 6ft dad bod. But forget using this with body armor. That's a no go for me. As for optic setups, what I settled on was a romeo 5 on a low pic mount, with a primary arms micro 3x magnifier on an arisaka low pro magnifier mount. I didn't mind the safety, was a little awkward but I got used to it pretty quickly. I did put a slate stop on mine, helped with c-clamping around the front, but otherwise ran it slick with no light or laser because those weren't necessary for the shooting matches I was participating in. The last issue I had with it is there's no external bolt hold open on the gun (unless I'm blind) which is a big detriment in shooting matches specifically. Having to lock the bolt back to show clear at the end of every stage required dropping the magazine then finger fucking the bolt catch through the mag well while holding the charging handle back. However, every match I show up to with it, the hellion draws a lot of attention which is kinda cool.
I'm also running a Hellion in 2gun. Mine's worked with any mags I've ran with it. I have it setup with a Sig Romeo7s on the low mount with a Holosun 3x magnifer and a Surefire M600 on the left side of the gun and a tape switch on the right side to actuate it. For me the safety was never an issue as I run a lot of AK's and have large hands. For me I've gotten to the point where I can drop the mag and thumb up the bolt hold open without looking. The trigger isn't great but once you get used to it its not bad.
I don't know. I love my Hellion. I think it's the best on the market. It's easily better than the X95 I used to own and far better than my buddy's AUG. I've messed around w/ the Desert Tech and Keltec and didn't prefer them either. Everyone always has the same complaints: trigger, safety, magwell, bolt release, and length-of-pull being too long. Springfield has already rectified the safety on all the new color 16" and all 20" models. It was an in-line production upgrade. The magwell/mag release, bolt release are all fixed w/ less than $100 worth of after market parts from Lunar Tech. The stupid adjustable stock and length of pull is fixed with Manticore Arms new butt pad that removes over an inch of LoP and increase the buttpad height making the HoB much less of an issue. Regarding HoB, I know you all understand you don't have to use a cantilever mount. You can use standard low rings that enough clearance. Seems disingenuous. That really only leave the trigger, which is indeed bad compared to a nice AR trigger but it is still perfectly usable. I'm able to hold 2 moa at 300 yards w/ it easily using the AEMS I have mounted. The complaints about LAMS and what not aren't a big deal to me but if they are to you, use one of your many ARs you inevitably have in the safe. I doubt many buyers of this weapon are getting it as their first.
I have to second this sentiment. The trigger feels like a glock gen 5 trigger. Certainly not the best, but mine is a clean 2 stage glock trigger feel. Has a long first stage, but a very clean break. I think they may have gotten a bad trigger pack in their rifle, as I've felt other vhs2 triggers and they feel identical to mine.
I'm honestly hoping it's good enough to want. They probably won't be fully into it but I have been waiting for a serviceable bullpup that's under $2k for awhile now. Literally every one on the market, like they said, is permanently stuck "halfway there". Always some issue or another.
I worked at an FFL that one of the guntuber's who got the Hellion with the NX8. I opened it up and got to mess around with it a bit for a while. It's a neat looking gun. None of us were that impressed with it in the shop.
i find it funny that they were shipped with the nx8. Like they were scared guntubers were going to put a 50 dollar optic on it which would color their experience of it.
I didn't know nearly as much then, as I do now about optics and stuff, and thought Night Force was a hokey named, and thought the LPVO on it was cheap jank. Lmao@@novagroup2
The height over bore is interesting because a lot of people are already running unity mounts for head up shooting, so I wonder how this compares with the hydra like mounts that are like poles sticking from an AR 😂
Only google result for the Hellion I got was shootingillustrated saying 4.3" hob. Delta34's videos say the unity mounts have a 3.47", the Goober's have 4.12", and an ACOG/RMR stack has 4.55". The hob difference between a Hellion and a Unity mount is the same as the difference between a Unity mount and absolute cowitness.
The hellion is the worst bullpup yet it's the only gun that went toe to toe with the hk416 in the german special forces trials for their new service weapon
I’m a huge bullpup fan have the original tavor, x95, aug, and the hellion. The ar15 is still my go to. The points are sound you’re just making sure people spend their money wisely. If you got an ar15 set up as your go to and you want something cool? Get you a hellion or whatever you want.
I feel like if you get it at a good price and arent' worried about night vision, a bullpup is great, especially for flipping off the ATF and their sbr "rules"
I use the VHS-2 (not calling it the Hellion) and an X95 as my go to rifles since I much prefer them over the front heaviness of ARs and they offer much better stability, balance, and compactness in general. I’m not rich enough for night vision so I just need an optic and maybe a light and I’m good to go.
Guys, you literally just put an offest mount on the top rail and then either thumb operate or mount the tape switch right in front of the charging handle on the flat. You can literally see in this very video that your thumbs are in the perfect locations to do both, perfectly comfortably. The compact tapes with the two-button that will naturally ride the curve I bet does especially well. I don't even like the thing, but like, 70% of your complaints were objectively wrong.
they really were wrong. they could very easily place the wires in any which way to suit a laser and light but instead they chose to complain about issues they could very easily resolve. they also say that they can't put a laser on it with an LPVO. the only reason they can't do this is because they have the scope too far forward. they have plenty of space between their head and scope to pull it further back and still have eye relief.
The mount height problem is only a problem because we all run ars and all our mounts are high. The lpvo you guys were using had almost full 2 inches of room to come down with a lower mount. This is the same problem that we all have with side rails on kalashes but you just need a nice pair of ratcheting medium height 30mm rings. A low, single piece, qd mount would be great but I haven't seen one.
It's too soon for the Hellion to have good customization options. Manticore Arms is making parts already but only a few. They do have a safety. Give it a year and I'm betting even Geiselle has a trigger for it. And the Hellion makes a great suppressor host.
yeah we said that. But you do need to use 1.5" flat top height if you want to clear lasers. Which I probably woudn't run on here anyway. So yeah. ~1" ring mount it is.
Bronze Age was coooonsumerisim at its inception. “Oh you want better axe than copper? Why? Who cares copper is the OG but you *neeeeeed* it I guess, so go sail from Greece to litteral England in the year 4000 BC to go find tin and sail back and melt it all together and stuff for something that’s marginally better? Ok consumer bro
No but for real the new 18-in and 20-in models, gone with an enhanced trigger model since it doesn't have the full auto trigger pack. This basically takes up about half the slack the trigger feels a hell of a lot better. As well as a safety in a different spot, I originally hated the 16-in and when the 18 and 20 inch came out I went over to make fun of it again and immediately fell in love with it. But then again I'm 6'3 and about 290 lb and built like a f****** gorilla. So this feels very tiny in my hands. Apparently a lot of the Croatian military are built like this so the gun fills accommodating in their hands. Of course I kept my basic 137 rifle, but this is going to be my new general purpose rifle just because it ticks all the boxes that I want. You know what they say there is no free lunch, and if I can live with the trigger and train with it I love all the pros that come with this rifle.
We croatians are one of the biggest(tallest) people in the world,shared top spots with Netherlands and Bosnia and Serbia,people usually don't get it. I'm 1.95m tall and I'm average height in my region. So for us that gun fits,same as for us ak grips are too small and m4s are also tiny.
Standard military bullpups come with 20 inch barrels, VHS-2 (Hellion) is not an exception. It's not about making a 16 inch barrel as short as possible. It's about making a compact 20 inch rifle.
"military grade" isn't really a vouch for quality ,its usually the opposite as most people who have been or dealt with military requisition process can tell you. Tho i heard a lot of "issues" listed about the civilian "hellion" (god thats a stupid name) and then i asked some of my friends who had experience with the military issue one (and the original) and especially on the trigger they seem to not have had any issue. Mind you the VHS2 has actually been field tested, the 2 was already a major upgrade from the 1(including the trigger being changed from it) based directly on combat experience of Croatian military mission in Afganistan, after which the same was done for VHS2 for purpose of improving those into what they are. Dunno if its due to any construction changes on the civilian one(in my mind i have a sneaky suspicion that the trigger setup on it is actually the one from the original VHS versions) on the other hand it could be another thing that people usually don't take into account and thats not a joke that people there are built different. So let my explain that, for example you might have heard the meme of soviet tanks being cramped or having size restrictions, well that was because soviet men( tended to actually be on average smaller so it wasn't actually a major issue, but the size was listed for safety reasons and people who don't understand and don't consider these things like that took it as a funny and made fun of it without thinking that there is a logical explanation about it. Mind you a lot of western tanks at the time of WW2 are "cramped" by today's standard again because of the average size of men since WW2 has gone up so ofc old tanks from back then will be cramped for someone from today.
That's true for a lot of things that militaries purchase, but I wouldn't say that it's true for something like a general issue rifle. It's one thing if you cheap out on a pistol(...no need to name any specific recent US military contracts or anything...) that basically never gets used; but, if your service rifle is having serious issues because you went with the "cheap" one instead of the "good" one, then that's a very real problem. Rifles may not win wars, but I'll be damned if they can't lose them lol.
I was pleased that recognize the Kel-tec RDB's superior design. The fact that it is made out of Fisherprice plastic and sheet metal is, of course, completely inconsequential compared to this moral victory.
If you do end up getting an Aug for testing, underworld arms makes a relatively inexpensive handguard that covers the full length of the barrel, and would allow for mounting of nv stuff. It is attached directly to the barrel assemblyband should hold zero. otherwise try reaching out to Arid Defense to see if you can get a t&e version of the top rail and handguard they are developing.
I am Austrian, got a Tavor in 9mm, a Vhs2 in 223, and no AUG... Maybe something is wrong with me. I have fun at the range with both rifle an i do enjoy to not have an Ar15, even if i might shoot better with it
I love mine. It' more accurate than most ARs, it gives me 16in of barrel in the same space as all of those TOTALLY awesome 10.5-11.5 guns (and offers more velocity, which does more of what we want 5.56 to do for us), and it fills my perceived need for a good, useable tool when I need one. The 20in variant is the same size as an issue M4. Imagine, all that vibe check in such a small package ... The trigger is awful, yet (for me at least) is consistent/repeatable enough to be accurate to 400+ yards, and that's not bad for a carbine with a "garbage" trigger. It's like a worse G3/MP5 trigger. In the end, if it works well enough, is it really "bad?" You decide. HOB is dealt with by using low rings and appropriate glass. Any decent 30mm 1-6 or 1-8 LPVO will work just fine, and with a T2 in a low pro mount, you can achieve absolute co-witness, if you like that kind of perversion and don't need magnification. Mag changes are really easy, charging the gun is really easy. The original safety is garbage, but Manticore has that covered, and the new rifles have a better, easier to reach safety. IDGAF about the lack of a BHO. Truly, it's an annoyance, nothing more. The guys who use these for fighting don't seem to mind, either. TLDR: Bullpup haters are going to hate bullpups -- zero surprise there. Bullpup haters are like that skateboard kid who can only pull a trick under exact conditions, and shit on people who are more adaptable. "I'm familiar with the AR, I just can't do anything weird or outside of my general experience."
Still a multiple XD owner and the trigger in the hellion isn't worse. It's not bad at all most are just whiny because (muh AR trigger) also I own multiple AR's
I got mine and i have a 2x7 lpvo flip to side for irons! With a laser light combo that sorta works as a foregrip! No problem with laserlight and my flip to side lpvo iron sight open works perfectly
@@Hoplopfheil "there is otherwise no provision for a bolt hold open" the worst part is those were YOUR words, not brass'. the bolt release on both guns also functions as a bolt hold open. you failed to read the manual and will be held back another year.
I have a hellion, I don’t like the weight, trigger, hoops required to mount nv stuff, the 4” or more HOB with the acog on it or the safety but can you really put a price on decking out a real rifle like your video game loadout? Naw.
Greatly appreciate both of you diving into the pros and cons of bullpups and even owning a 308 rifle. Would love to see y’all do the same style but for ar15 alternatives because everyone at least once has thought of something besides an AR15
Honestly, for real use or serious training, nothing else is as good as an AR. Nothing touches it. Anything that comes close takes serious notes from it. Nothing else has the flexibility, aftermarket support, or performance record. The only reason to not go with an AR-15 derived rifle is a desire to be different.
I picked up the newer 20". I personally dig it. Will it replace my AR? Most likely not. The trigger doesn't bother me as I got used to staying in the actual trigger zone on trigger reset. As with anything the more I build muscle memory the more comfortable it is to use. The AR still feels more natural to use, but that is years and years of using one. I have the fixed stock on my Hellion and I believe that design makes more sense than having a collapsible version. For an out of the box rifle in a KISS config. She isn't bad at all and is a neat addition to the collection.
You (Hop as he's not disabled with left-handedness) should try the AKB-23, it's a Bullpup kit for the BRN-180 that's basically a high quality L85 we have at home (I can't speak to its actual quality as it's not shipping yet)
My hellion is an egregiously accurate rifle that shoots constant sub MOA. I might be alone in this, but I think it's a very aesthetically pleasing rifle. The biggest issue is trigger as the main downer with the Hellion.
Bullpups will take off in military service when the need of a longer barrel for higher velocities becomes necessary. Right now body armor is advancing quickly so it may not be long before 20"+ barrels become critical to defeat it without resorting to expensive semi rare metals.
When reffering to military bullpups it's weird you say "Even the AUG" when the EF88 (Aug based) is probably the most successful battle tested bullpup out there with a great warfighting record. Also the original AUG has a switchable front grip that folds flat and the new ones use a tinny rail...
"the x95 and aug does what the VHS does but better" as far as the AUG my guy have fun suppressing that thing and having to buy a whole new bolt just to switch ejection sides, and even when you do flip it the charging handle is still on the left side. For the X95 you also have to buy a left handed bolt and its a 4-6 MOA POS on top of that.
These guys are idiots. The x95 is inaccurate. The hellion is the most accurate bullpup. Sounds like 2 guys crying. Learn how to shoot a new weapon system. Not complain about it. That is why they are civilians. Dummies.
I think some reasons why civilians such as myself like the IDEA of the VHS (not using the stupid name) is because while you mostly can't mount LAMs it's really a no factor for most civilians really only needing a flashlight. I can understand a bunch of guys who all have nvgs putting a great emphasis on night use but for some of us we might be lucky if we even have a flashlight attached to the rifle itself but for $1600 it is upsetting the rifle is basically relegated to only a flashlight being mounted. As for the trigger issues the easy to swap trigger pack leaves hope that someone will make a really nice bullpup trigger for it if they haven't already. However again I have to agree for an $1600 rifle that is kind of unacceptable. I also think people like it because it tried to solve one of the biggest issues of being a bullpup which is being ambidextrous better than really any one I can think of. For me personally using an AR I very regularly swap shoulders for the dreaded left hand peek as a traumatized Tarkov player especially because in my house specifically most of my defensive positions require me to shoulder the rifle left handed to be exposed as little as possible. I'm sure most people who actually know what they're doing don't swap sides nearly as much but for me I appreciate not only being able to shoot left handed but doing it without changing anything on the rifle. Is the length of pull obnoxious yes but I would rather have that than not being able to shoot it left handed without swapping parts. I should also mention I like my milspec stock all the way out and sometimes feel even longer would feel more comfortable without body armor and I'm 5'8"-9" so I must have some strangely long arms for my size. I think this may be the biggest reason for the VHS' popularity over other military bullpups and because it's the only one that is this ambi it's appealing to those who have avoided bullpups because of the ambi issue bringing in a bunch of people who weren't bullpup fans before. As for optics mounting that is probably the biggest thing that makes me question buying one. I'm a red dot magnifier believer (for my area 3-4x is perfectly adequate and being more concerned with home defense I doubt I'd use the magnifier for anything that walks on two legs) Arisaka makes a low profile mount that I think would solve the height over bore issue but you're locked into eotech or aimpoint unless someone else makes a low profile mount. Also as a military bullpup with a crappy trigger I feel like mounting an LPVO is kind of a waste of glass. It seems like the rifle just isn't made for you guys and that's okay. If you use NV and LPVOs I agree this rifle is probably one of the worst bullpups. But as a strictly civilian rifle where the worst case scenario is a home defense situation without night vision I think the rifle would be good. But much like many armchair operators defending the VHS it's expensive and I don't own one so I'd love to see someone poke holes into my logic rather than finding out I just wasted $1600. Also before someone asks why not just use an AR 1: I don't plan on getting rid of mine I think the VHS is just another tool in the toolbox that I would simply use more than an AR for "everyday" type use. 2: If I want some extra magnification or buy some NVGs one day I'll be grabbing an AR since I can mount that stuff on it better. 3: I like my longer barrels for 5.56 and being able to get those good velocities with 55gr is important to me for various reasons I won't get into, plus I want to get a suppressor one day and I can confidently say clearing my house with an A2 style AR that's about the max length I can deal with so requiring a longer barrel with a suppressor really only leaves a bullpup as an option for me and needing a true ambi rifle really only leaves the VHS for me. If someone else can do what the VHS does cheaper or solves the rail space issue and height over bore for the same price I and probably most bullpup fans will look at that as the new king of bullpups.
I have a vertical fore grip on mine and a SF G2 on the right side, it’s very easy to activate the light. Go from c clamp to gripping the VFG and the light button is right there. No crazy switches or anything
@@Devin7Eleven HoB matters mostly when you're closer to the target than your zero. Most people probably wouldn't zero closer than 50 yards so for home defense when you may be fighting at 10 yards and closer the height of your sights over the bore means you have to aim higher to compensate. The AR-15 is basically the standard everyone goes by, I think with a cowitness red dot you'll have to aim roughly 1 - 1.5 inches above what you want to hit assuming a 100 yard zero and you're shooting within ten yards. Best way to visualize it is looking at a picture of a gun draw a line from the muzzle to a target then draw a line from the sights to the target you'll see the sights have to be angled down slightly. Now if you move said target closer you'll see the line drawn from the sight will be higher than the target for the line from the muzzle to still intersect with it. That's a very simplified explanation it also has implications for shooting past your zero but I won't get into that bottom line the closer you can get your sights to the bore the better. With the VHS using a cowitness red dot for one it seems the cheek weld itself isn't great but it looks like in the same situation you'd need to shoot somewhere like 3 inches over where you want to hit literally double. If you were to aim exactly at the heart on a human that could easily make the difference between a one shot stop and simply pissing the dude off. (Bit of hyperbole but you get the idea.) Or if you were to shoot at the head it could mean the difference between hitting the brain and hitting someone in the lips. (While still lethal in most cases I'd rather make sure I hit the true off switch not the cervical spine.) Also the railspace issue only really applies to things that need to retain zero so illuminators both visible and IR, foregrips etc would be fine but mounting lasers to M-LOK isn't the best for holding zero. It would work for having a rough POI inside a house but at any real distance it gets bad. Which as you said perfectly adequate but when the rifle is $1600 or more adequate is kind of unacceptable when a $800 AR could do night vision stuff better. I think this could be solved by just using the picatinny rails the Croatian military uses although I'm not sure if the handguard itself is good at holding zero. If not I'd imagine some minor design changes could get it to hold zero properly. With that in mind if you have an IR laser you're limited to the pic rail on top which isn't ideal as mentioned in the video. It can be done but compared to just buying a much cheaper AR it is a bit annoying. And even then the length of the handguard seems about the same as a milspec M4 quad rail maybe smaller which while perfect for some like myself may be a little small for others.
My biggest complaint with the Hellion is the mag well, It really needs a mag flair, which theres a after market part for. As for the trigger, idk if you guys got unlucky or I got lucky, but mine has a pretty long take up, then a decent break, not the best but its serviceable. My cheek riser doesn't move at all when its put together. End of the day, its my favorite rifle I have, mostly for the looks and I don't like ARs, its one of those rifles thats just "This has a lot of flaws, this is a terrible rifle" but when I actually take it down to the range its just a fun, idk how else to say it. Just a fun gun to run.
The Hellion is not bad at all for night vision. The handguard will kinda hold zero for a LAM since there are two plastic lugs on the front. Alternatively you can run a LAM at 12:00 with an optic sitting higher. You can mount your optic at a reasonable distance and run the stock out if you need to clear your tube.
I never fired a weapon until Sand Hill (Ft. Benning). And even though I'm ETS'd. I've never shot anything "better" than mil-grade weapons. So the (admittedly) mush-trigger, was easy for me to get used to. But yes, "where's the wall? Oh! It's there...this time..." lol. Still, I love this weapon, especially as a lefty. PS: I used a cantilever M-LOK adapter for mounting my WML.
The gun isnt the problem its the fact that people want to put accessories made for the AR(most are) on a non AR platform. All new hellions have the new selector. So im guessing anything not an AR is going to to get shit on.
I don't think that a variably powered optic or flashlight are particularly big demands for any modern "fighting" rifle. A problem inherent with bullpups is their lack of front-end real estate for anything other than your support hand, and the natural configuration of the weapon vs. optimal body mechanics for aiming. All this to take maybe 4-6 inches off the gun, which is quite a secondary concern for anyone not hopping out of AFVs or helicopters all the time. And as much as one can point out the lack of other legal options for a compact, "full-power" home defense weapon, I frankly don't see the problem unless your local baseheads have started breaking into places with plates and rifles (in which case my suggestions involve a U-Haul and a plane ticket out of there instead).
@@dib0018 Yeah, agreed. The problem comes with demanding the same things you'd demand from an AR, from an RDB or X95. They CAN have an IR laser and suppressor on them. Whether or not that can be effectively done is another story entirely.
@michaelturk7237 I'm not sure what your are putting on your fighting rifle(s). That being said all I can say is you may have limitations as to location. On my T7 I have BUIS, elcan, LAM, light, and even room for a picatinny QD. Again admittedly with a 16" handguard you have more options for your light and laser which many mount at the muzzle end since there is the C clamp grip(IMO another trend). Are bullpups perfect? Absolutely not. Do they offer solutions to some issues. Yes. Sure you have to train yourself for their layout but that's no different than a person who had never operated a firearm or you driving a car different from your daily driver. You have to learn the controls.
The hellion rifle isn't exactly a beginner's toy. it requires a level of maturity and skill to wield it effectively and, well, actually be lethal. Not everyone can handle that kind of firepower. Love from Croatia.
@@Enjoyer.762 hahahahaha nope,just to prove u got kicked out afganistan by aks,vietnam aks,syria aks,somalia,and somehow muh AR wins everything hahaha
@@stip3m4m1c8 Why did the Taliban dump their AKs for those M4A1s, 416s, M110s & M110A1s, SCAR17s, and M240s the Potato Biden-Harris regime gifted to them if outdated comrade weapons are so much better?
Lots of complaints about the trigger, but the accuracy results on this rifle have consistently been outstanding. At the end of the day, putting the bullet on target is what matters when shtf. Gucci glass break trigger or not, no arguing it gets the job done better than many other platforms.
Still have to review the last two bullpups: K&M arms M17S SRSS Bulldog M14 chassis But for real the Singapore BR18 seems amazing and the new Australian Lithgow MBR seems like the best in the world and almost came here 😢
As a fan of both youtubers I can confidently say that half of their criticisms regarding rifles are "where do i put my ir laser tho?", completely disregarding the fact that only 10% of people who care about nvg have ngv, which is also disregarding the fact that only 1% of armed citizens actually care about ngv.
12:22 - Also, using the wrong ring height isn't exactly the fault of the gun. Running a +2.3" riser ON TOP OF AR15 carry handle is wrong part selection. You need "low mount" QD 1-piece mount (GG&G SoCom-II 1.26") or ObjectiveBell/2 standard rings (1" saddle height for Razor LPVO) for "normal" cheek weld. As an optic snob associate of Hop, this portion of video was painful to watch. PEBCAK almost, although I won't blame -- but wish more effort was applied.
we mentioned that. We know But if you can't actually run a LAM if you do that (which we wanted to do). Hilarious that failed too because we ran out of railspace (no room under the bell of the lpvo)
@@novagroup2 Got it, that's absolutely deserved. G36 has same issue, and B&T made a "duckbill" sort of top rail for that. So spot on. On Sig553's (+ 1.5" T-2), Swiss Special forces even mount LAM on the RHS of trirail to clear PEQ. You're again absolutely correct.
@nathan_k it's funny the AR has had over 60 years to evolve and most if not all accessories here in the states are specifically designed for it. Then people want to try and cobble AR designed accessories on a different style rifle and when it does t work it's shit. This mindset isn't even remotely objective. Most of these channels are AR cultists. I like the AR but it's not the be all end all. This rifle has numerous attributes and now that it's here where we like to tweak our blasters I'm sure things will be much better. Lunartech designs bolt release is absolutely worth it. It and a little skate board tape behind the nub and you're cooking with gas.
@@dib0018 I'd disagree (in part). AR is a standard, and that standard won. MIL-STD-1913/STANAG 2324/4694 are only 1995+. MLOK 2014+. So parts commonality is a point. However, only to a point. Sticking a Grendel Type-1 bolt in Type-2 platform will result in terrible headspace failures, despite "fitting". Due to improper part selection. That's the extent of what happened here. Even LAM themselves (offset laser) is to clear obsolete M16A# fixed front sight. Proper fix is a better standard. Not redesigning the platform to suit obsolete hardware. See: ARCA rail standard.
The entire optic height problem seems like it could be solved with an MDRX style charging handle that doesn’t add much vertical space instead of a G36 style Picatinny bridge that adds two inches to height over bore
I have a PSA Jakl upper, and it is just runs. It doesn't care, it just runs. PSA announced a coming bullpup lower for it and I have to believe that if they get the trigger/ergos right then a year from now it will be a strong contender, budget or not. The shooty part is already solid and proven (a first, as far as I know). If they are smart with that lower/chassis, it might just be what I/we have been waiting for. On the Hellion, can you just remove the whole adjustable butt and associated fluff, and just attach a pad?
Agreed the trigger is crap. I own a PDP which has a good trigger out of the box and s EVO3 with a Czech after market trigger. These make the poor trigger stand out even more. I shot mine once to zero it and put it back in the cupboard until some one makes a decent trigger for it. Unfortunately I didn't think it would take this long 😢. Thanks for your thought's gents.
The F2000 had serious military adoption. Not as much as the AUG or Tavor, but a big deal in Slovenia and Saudi Arabia. The trigger and OEM optic are awful, but it solves the ejection problem without sacrificing reliability.
The 2 biggest issues I have with the Hellion are weight and length of pull. I love a lot of things about this rifle but damn its heavy and the length of pull just makes it flat out uncomfortable for me. Cost is also a factor currently. Maybe the orice will come down later. Unfortunately weight and length of pull arent something that can be fixed by the aftermarket.
I wonder why they dont extend the barrel and rail even farther. Basically just get an extended barrel on a normal AR length rather than a standard barrel on a shorter AR length
Been running a Hellion for a while now. My fix for light placement was getting a magpul cantilever pic rail, and running the light on my off-hand side so I could just thumb the button. Works well that way, no wires and allows me to grip the rifle as normal. For optics, I went with an EOTech Xps2 with a magnifier. At close range, I aim with the bottom "peg" on the large circle, and that more or less compensates for the height-over-bore issue. Can't speak on any fixes for lasers because I'm too poor to afford NVG's.
Honestly surprised ya'll havent tried a bullpup chassis kit. A3 triad looks super promising as far as the closest ergonomics to a traditional bullpup with a foxtrot mike upper. Thought about trying the reap weaponry SCY but when i saw that the A3 is way more bullpup esc with a cleaner build i decided to wait for that.
TFB/TV Averaged 1.6 inch groups at 100,Yards with a standout 1.2,inch group using all types of ammo cheap and expensive. Around 65 grain ammo was best. And that was with a stock VHS2 16 inch barrel they abused Puting it through a torture test on a previous episode.Alabama Arsenal got hits at 1000 yards with there Hellion. Maybe you guys are just not that good and are blaming the gun for your own inadequacy on the firing range. Cheers
@@novagroup2 go watch the torture test TFB/tv and honest outlaw put the Hellion through and still not a failure then do the same to your AR. Let me know how it went.
I do not understand why Hop is so obsessed with c-clamping the hellion's carry handle. You don't have to c-clamp everything. Throw a foregrip on it, and do aforementioned the surefire setup. It's fine.
If bullpups are good enough for Master Chief, they're good enough for me 😏
💯💯💯💯 the only thing that matters
THIS MAN GETS IT
Well 500 years from now Bullpups might actually be good.
the hellion is literally the closest irl gun to the battle rifle, what more needs to be said? it being good is just an added bonus
308 bullpup with a 60 round magazine firing at 900rpm, of course its kills whatever's at the other end
I think it’s poetic that Brock longs for the least lefty-friendly rifle in the L85
as a lefty, gotta admit idk why but its a lefty thing.
The L85 is your dream rifle!? That's kind of like when your buddy has the nastiest woman and no one can figure it out or talk him out of it.
but it looks cool
L85 was fun to use in battlefield so now me want
It's a bullpup ar18, it looks cool
Ya.... I fired an L85A2 when I was cross training with the Royal Marines.... don't get me wrong, it was kinda nice how short it was compared to my pike of an M16A4 but even without a laser and light (which my m16 had a Peq15 that was issued and a streamlight I bought for it) it weighed considerably more. Also Brock would lose his teeth if he ever shot an L85, they aren't ambi at all, you shoot them right handed or you get to go to the dentist.
"Bro, I just love her"
I don't think BrassFacts would like the L85... it's right-hand only.
He's right handed but left eye dominant so he shoots lefty iirc.
eeeewwweww
You mean 💪best💪hand💪only💪
@@MrRedrooster53 Interesting. As someone in the same boat, i shoot right handed, and since i have an optic or at least a red dot, i don't really need my dominant eye to be doing the main work. Only time it matters is for Iron sites, and for that on a pistol, i ust my right hand it hold it to my left eye, i don't even think about it anymore.
I think that’d be the least of his issues with it, especially the A1.
You know something is going on when Hop admits that a bullpup is an okay rifle.
NGL that thumb over grip being under the carrying handle looks super comfy.
Should put a pic rail there and you could put a light pad or a maul.
it is.
@@dylanturley7291 thats what adhesives are for
I grabbed a hellion last year on a whim. It's like my 29th gun, so it's far removed from any kind of practical considerations. I have some notes on it from using it in several 2gun and rifle matches.
In no particular order:
Mine doesn't work at all with gen 2 pmags. But metal GI mags, lancer mags, and gen 3 pmags work fine. I ate shit in the first match I ran it in due to bringing gen 2 pmags. That sucked. Redeemed at the next match bringing GI mags and came in 9th overall. The LOP with the stock fully collapsed was fine for my 6ft dad bod. But forget using this with body armor. That's a no go for me. As for optic setups, what I settled on was a romeo 5 on a low pic mount, with a primary arms micro 3x magnifier on an arisaka low pro magnifier mount. I didn't mind the safety, was a little awkward but I got used to it pretty quickly. I did put a slate stop on mine, helped with c-clamping around the front, but otherwise ran it slick with no light or laser because those weren't necessary for the shooting matches I was participating in. The last issue I had with it is there's no external bolt hold open on the gun (unless I'm blind) which is a big detriment in shooting matches specifically. Having to lock the bolt back to show clear at the end of every stage required dropping the magazine then finger fucking the bolt catch through the mag well while holding the charging handle back. However, every match I show up to with it, the hellion draws a lot of attention which is kinda cool.
I'm also running a Hellion in 2gun. Mine's worked with any mags I've ran with it. I have it setup with a Sig Romeo7s on the low mount with a Holosun 3x magnifer and a Surefire M600 on the left side of the gun and a tape switch on the right side to actuate it. For me the safety was never an issue as I run a lot of AK's and have large hands. For me I've gotten to the point where I can drop the mag and thumb up the bolt hold open without looking. The trigger isn't great but once you get used to it its not bad.
The PA micro magnifier is compatible with the arisaka? Does that mean it's EOTech footprint?
@@InvidiousIgnoramus yep! Eotech footprint. I've confirmed they work with adm and Larue eotech magnifier mounts too.
@@englematic that is fantastic. I really didn't want to drop the money for an EOtech to do the same.
Wait, there's low profile magnifier mounts?
*furiously checks Arisaka's website*
Ok, this fundamentally changes how I view AKs. Thank you!
I will forever want the halo battle rifle.
I don't know. I love my Hellion. I think it's the best on the market. It's easily better than the X95 I used to own and far better than my buddy's AUG. I've messed around w/ the Desert Tech and Keltec and didn't prefer them either. Everyone always has the same complaints: trigger, safety, magwell, bolt release, and length-of-pull being too long. Springfield has already rectified the safety on all the new color 16" and all 20" models. It was an in-line production upgrade. The magwell/mag release, bolt release are all fixed w/ less than $100 worth of after market parts from Lunar Tech. The stupid adjustable stock and length of pull is fixed with Manticore Arms new butt pad that removes over an inch of LoP and increase the buttpad height making the HoB much less of an issue. Regarding HoB, I know you all understand you don't have to use a cantilever mount. You can use standard low rings that enough clearance. Seems disingenuous. That really only leave the trigger, which is indeed bad compared to a nice AR trigger but it is still perfectly usable. I'm able to hold 2 moa at 300 yards w/ it easily using the AEMS I have mounted. The complaints about LAMS and what not aren't a big deal to me but if they are to you, use one of your many ARs you inevitably have in the safe. I doubt many buyers of this weapon are getting it as their first.
I have to second this sentiment. The trigger feels like a glock gen 5 trigger. Certainly not the best, but mine is a clean 2 stage glock trigger feel. Has a long first stage, but a very clean break. I think they may have gotten a bad trigger pack in their rifle, as I've felt other vhs2 triggers and they feel identical to mine.
Spot on Paulie771
Im not excited for the PSA bullpup Jakl, but I am excited for you all to get your hands on it.
I'm honestly hoping it's good enough to want. They probably won't be fully into it but I have been waiting for a serviceable bullpup that's under $2k for awhile now. Literally every one on the market, like they said, is permanently stuck "halfway there". Always some issue or another.
I worked at an FFL that one of the guntuber's who got the Hellion with the NX8. I opened it up and got to mess around with it a bit for a while. It's a neat looking gun. None of us were that impressed with it in the shop.
i find it funny that they were shipped with the nx8. Like they were scared guntubers were going to put a 50 dollar optic on it which would color their experience of it.
I didn't know nearly as much then, as I do now about optics and stuff, and thought Night Force was a hokey named, and thought the LPVO on it was cheap jank. Lmao@@novagroup2
The real problems started when we decided leaving the ocean was a good idea.
@Frankthetank-et7woBAK IN MY DAY WE DIDN'T HAB NO MITOCONDREEUH AN WE WUR JUST FINE
"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
😂
But we were created and never came from the ocean.. However, how about, 'problems' began once they let women vote' 😅
@@danielkreher7066matriarchal society is pure evil
@@danielkreher7066yes, that's why there are no significant matriarchal societies among non-Abrahamic cultures.
The height over bore is interesting because a lot of people are already running unity mounts for head up shooting, so I wonder how this compares with the hydra like mounts that are like poles sticking from an AR 😂
Only google result for the Hellion I got was shootingillustrated saying 4.3" hob. Delta34's videos say the unity mounts have a 3.47", the Goober's have 4.12", and an ACOG/RMR stack has 4.55".
The hob difference between a Hellion and a Unity mount is the same as the difference between a Unity mount and absolute cowitness.
Yea, that is a clear sign of bias. If this was a german rifle they would be ooing and aaaing.
@@frankopanklaricthis nazi obsession with german products is soooo anoying
@@frankopanklaricdo NOT watch Hop's video on the USP or PDP
I love my Hellion. Feels great in my hands, shoots great, runs super reliably. Love the ergos and controls of it.
The hellion is the worst bullpup yet it's the only gun that went toe to toe with the hk416 in the german special forces trials for their new service weapon
French military trial, not german. The germans don't buy from the rest of european countries, except switzerland maybe
It actually beat HK416 in the French rifle trials as well. However HK was the bigger manufacturer so french played it safe.
💥
@@thekraken1173 who would YOU trust to make guns, Germans or Croats?
I’m a huge bullpup fan have the original tavor, x95, aug, and the hellion. The ar15 is still my go to. The points are sound you’re just making sure people spend their money wisely. If you got an ar15 set up as your go to and you want something cool? Get you a hellion or whatever you want.
I’m still leaning towards bullpup due to compact size, still like the AR.
I feel like if you get it at a good price and arent' worried about night vision, a bullpup is great, especially for flipping off the ATF and their sbr "rules"
I use the VHS-2 (not calling it the Hellion) and an X95 as my go to rifles since I much prefer them over the front heaviness of ARs and they offer much better stability, balance, and compactness in general. I’m not rich enough for night vision so I just need an optic and maybe a light and I’m good to go.
@@Devin7Eleven same here, I don’t trick any of my pieces out; optic and light for me!
@@mattwalters6834. Well, compact is what I went for, so I got me a hellion. Arrived yesterday, picked up and shoot today. Loving it
Guys, you literally just put an offest mount on the top rail and then either thumb operate or mount the tape switch right in front of the charging handle on the flat.
You can literally see in this very video that your thumbs are in the perfect locations to do both, perfectly comfortably. The compact tapes with the two-button that will naturally ride the curve I bet does especially well.
I don't even like the thing, but like, 70% of your complaints were objectively wrong.
they really were wrong. they could very easily place the wires in any which way to suit a laser and light but instead they chose to complain about issues they could very easily resolve. they also say that they can't put a laser on it with an LPVO. the only reason they can't do this is because they have the scope too far forward. they have plenty of space between their head and scope to pull it further back and still have eye relief.
"That wasn't a real bullpup!"
Sounds almost like communism.
The mount height problem is only a problem because we all run ars and all our mounts are high. The lpvo you guys were using had almost full 2 inches of room to come down with a lower mount. This is the same problem that we all have with side rails on kalashes but you just need a nice pair of ratcheting medium height 30mm rings. A low, single piece, qd mount would be great but I haven't seen one.
It's too soon for the Hellion to have good customization options. Manticore Arms is making parts already but only a few. They do have a safety. Give it a year and I'm betting even Geiselle has a trigger for it. And the Hellion makes a great suppressor host.
You can use regular scope rings for the Helion. You don´t need a one piece scope mount so just pic correct height rings.
yeah we said that. But you do need to use 1.5" flat top height if you want to clear lasers. Which I probably woudn't run on here anyway. So yeah. ~1" ring mount it is.
@@novagroup2 Forgot about the laser. My bad.
6'2" is average height for croatian males so the size and stock length adjustment makes sense for its users.
BrassFacts is 6'1" and I'm 6'4" so keep trying
Tried an LPVO on mine, hated it. Then went rds+mag then acog. The gun is made for an acog.
Pretty much how I run mine, primary arms Prism optic instead of an acog though.
The bronze age was really the beginning of our down fall
Bronze Age was coooonsumerisim at its inception.
“Oh you want better axe than copper? Why? Who cares copper is the OG but you *neeeeeed* it I guess, so go sail from Greece to litteral England in the year 4000 BC to go find tin and sail back and melt it all together and stuff for something that’s marginally better? Ok consumer bro
😂
@@mr.spartacus6390why do you need copper? This here stone axe is just as good!
@@axelmilan4292 oh geeze here’s this boomer talking about his stone axe again lol
No but for real the new 18-in and 20-in models, gone with an enhanced trigger model since it doesn't have the full auto trigger pack. This basically takes up about half the slack the trigger feels a hell of a lot better. As well as a safety in a different spot, I originally hated the 16-in and when the 18 and 20 inch came out I went over to make fun of it again and immediately fell in love with it. But then again I'm 6'3 and about 290 lb and built like a f****** gorilla. So this feels very tiny in my hands. Apparently a lot of the Croatian military are built like this so the gun fills accommodating in their hands. Of course I kept my basic 137 rifle, but this is going to be my new general purpose rifle just because it ticks all the boxes that I want. You know what they say there is no free lunch, and if I can live with the trigger and train with it I love all the pros that come with this rifle.
Not gonna lie, as a bullpup fan, I'm getting pretty annoyed reading about this one - cuz I'm 5'5 damn it😅
We croatians are one of the biggest(tallest) people in the world,shared top spots with Netherlands and Bosnia and Serbia,people usually don't get it.
I'm 1.95m tall and I'm average height in my region.
So for us that gun fits,same as for us ak grips are too small and m4s are also tiny.
Standard military bullpups come with 20 inch barrels, VHS-2 (Hellion) is not an exception.
It's not about making a 16 inch barrel as short as possible.
It's about making a compact 20 inch rifle.
Bullpup pokemon 😂
OMG - IT’S MY FAVORITE CRINGEFLUENCERS!
This thing is neat because Halo 2 battle rifle vibes
"military grade" isn't really a vouch for quality ,its usually the opposite as most people who have been or dealt with military requisition process can tell you.
Tho i heard a lot of "issues" listed about the civilian "hellion" (god thats a stupid name) and then i asked some of my friends who had experience with the military issue one (and the original) and especially on the trigger they seem to not have had any issue.
Mind you the VHS2 has actually been field tested, the 2 was already a major upgrade from the 1(including the trigger being changed from it) based directly on combat experience of Croatian military mission in Afganistan, after which the same was done for VHS2 for purpose of improving those into what they are.
Dunno if its due to any construction changes on the civilian one(in my mind i have a sneaky suspicion that the trigger setup on it is actually the one from the original VHS versions) on the other hand it could be another thing that people usually don't take into account and thats not a joke that people there are built different.
So let my explain that, for example you might have heard the meme of soviet tanks being cramped or having size restrictions, well that was because soviet men( tended to actually be on average smaller so it wasn't actually a major issue, but the size was listed for safety reasons and people who don't understand and don't consider these things like that took it as a funny and made fun of it without thinking that there is a logical explanation about it.
Mind you a lot of western tanks at the time of WW2 are "cramped" by today's standard again because of the average size of men since WW2 has gone up so ofc old tanks from back then will be cramped for someone from today.
That's true for a lot of things that militaries purchase, but I wouldn't say that it's true for something like a general issue rifle. It's one thing if you cheap out on a pistol(...no need to name any specific recent US military contracts or anything...) that basically never gets used; but, if your service rifle is having serious issues because you went with the "cheap" one instead of the "good" one, then that's a very real problem. Rifles may not win wars, but I'll be damned if they can't lose them lol.
I was pleased that recognize the Kel-tec RDB's superior design. The fact that it is made out of Fisherprice plastic and sheet metal is, of course, completely inconsequential compared to this moral victory.
I just want a functional replica of the Halo Battle Rifle and DMR.
Tavor 7 is pretty close to DMR.
As a hop and brass fan how am I just now finding this channel
If you do end up getting an Aug for testing, underworld arms makes a relatively inexpensive handguard that covers the full length of the barrel, and would allow for mounting of nv stuff. It is attached directly to the barrel assemblyband should hold zero. otherwise try reaching out to Arid Defense to see if you can get a t&e version of the top rail and handguard they are developing.
The Underworld Arms HG looks amazing. Very similar to the AUG A3 M1, but lighter, more modern, and better looking.
Oooo, nice stuff. I will say, the HG with the top rail does look about a dozen lightyears better than without it lol
I am Austrian, got a Tavor in 9mm, a Vhs2 in 223, and no AUG... Maybe something is wrong with me.
I have fun at the range with both rifle an i do enjoy to not have an Ar15, even if i might shoot better with it
traitor.
I love mine. It' more accurate than most ARs, it gives me 16in of barrel in the same space as all of those TOTALLY awesome 10.5-11.5 guns (and offers more velocity, which does more of what we want 5.56 to do for us), and it fills my perceived need for a good, useable tool when I need one. The 20in variant is the same size as an issue M4. Imagine, all that vibe check in such a small package ...
The trigger is awful, yet (for me at least) is consistent/repeatable enough to be accurate to 400+ yards, and that's not bad for a carbine with a "garbage" trigger. It's like a worse G3/MP5 trigger. In the end, if it works well enough, is it really "bad?" You decide.
HOB is dealt with by using low rings and appropriate glass. Any decent 30mm 1-6 or 1-8 LPVO will work just fine, and with a T2 in a low pro mount, you can achieve absolute co-witness, if you like that kind of perversion and don't need magnification.
Mag changes are really easy, charging the gun is really easy. The original safety is garbage, but Manticore has that covered, and the new rifles have a better, easier to reach safety.
IDGAF about the lack of a BHO. Truly, it's an annoyance, nothing more. The guys who use these for fighting don't seem to mind, either.
TLDR: Bullpup haters are going to hate bullpups -- zero surprise there. Bullpup haters are like that skateboard kid who can only pull a trick under exact conditions, and shit on people who are more adaptable. "I'm familiar with the AR, I just can't do anything weird or outside of my general experience."
What jacket is the is y’all’s boy rocking at 6:17
some sort of kuhl jacket
Good to know the Hellion retains the same trigger as the XD. Thank you HS Produkt, very cool.
way worse than the XD
(former XDM owner)
Still a multiple XD owner and the trigger in the hellion isn't worse. It's not bad at all most are just whiny because (muh AR trigger) also I own multiple AR's
@@driftitlikeyouownitConsidering it’s a combat rifle with full auto in mind, I say it’s very serviceable
The new model of the Hellion has a fixed safety, and a glock esque trigger.
Eh, I still like mine. Just mad they updated the safety and released new colors after I got it.
I got mine and i have a 2x7 lpvo flip to side for irons! With a laser light combo that sorta works as a foregrip! No problem with laserlight and my flip to side lpvo iron sight open works perfectly
11:00 the MDR and RDB both have bolt hold opens. you just got filtered because it isn't an AR.
You failed your listening comprehension test and will be held back another year.
@@Hoplopfheil "there is otherwise no provision for a bolt hold open" the worst part is those were YOUR words, not brass'. the bolt release on both guns also functions as a bolt hold open. you failed to read the manual and will be held back another year.
I have a hellion, I don’t like the weight, trigger, hoops required to mount nv stuff, the 4” or more HOB with the acog on it or the safety but can you really put a price on decking out a real rifle like your video game loadout? Naw.
As a left handed giraffe person, I possess literally both of your worst qualities.
The hellion is relegated to range toy in it’s current form
Theres something youre not considering...it looks like the helghast rifle from killzone 2
that's the only thing it has going for it.
So any of you gonna step up to the 308 tavor 7 and do a review?
Greatly appreciate both of you diving into the pros and cons of bullpups and even owning a 308 rifle. Would love to see y’all do the same style but for ar15 alternatives because everyone at least once has thought of something besides an AR15
Honestly, for real use or serious training, nothing else is as good as an AR. Nothing touches it. Anything that comes close takes serious notes from it.
Nothing else has the flexibility, aftermarket support, or performance record.
The only reason to not go with an AR-15 derived rifle is a desire to be different.
Are we ready to just get a Tavor 7 now?
I picked up the newer 20". I personally dig it. Will it replace my AR? Most likely not. The trigger doesn't bother me as I got used to staying in the actual trigger zone on trigger reset. As with anything the more I build muscle memory the more comfortable it is to use. The AR still feels more natural to use, but that is years and years of using one. I have the fixed stock on my Hellion and I believe that design makes more sense than having a collapsible version. For an out of the box rifle in a KISS config. She isn't bad at all and is a neat addition to the collection.
Oh, the agriculture revolution was the turning point? I'm gonna have to mosey on over to SS to hear this.
You (Hop as he's not disabled with left-handedness) should try the AKB-23, it's a Bullpup kit for the BRN-180 that's basically a high quality L85 we have at home (I can't speak to its actual quality as it's not shipping yet)
My hellion is an egregiously accurate rifle that shoots constant sub MOA.
I might be alone in this, but I think it's a very aesthetically pleasing rifle. The biggest issue is trigger as the main downer with the Hellion.
Crossing my fingers for the wlvrn as far as night vision.
MDRx has been out for 7years. The Wolverine just changes the internal to be more reliable... ALLEGEDLY
@@almostontimehero5415 It's a completely new gun
I have a LPVO and laser with a surefire vamp on it literally no issues you run the wires underneath the handguard and then have a dual switch
Bullpups will take off in military service when the need of a longer barrel for higher velocities becomes necessary. Right now body armor is advancing quickly so it may not be long before 20"+ barrels become critical to defeat it without resorting to expensive semi rare metals.
When reffering to military bullpups it's weird you say "Even the AUG" when the EF88 (Aug based) is probably the most successful battle tested bullpup out there with a great warfighting record. Also the original AUG has a switchable front grip that folds flat and the new ones use a tinny rail...
these guys just refuse to try the only actually good and proven bullpup.
"the x95 and aug does what the VHS does but better" as far as the AUG my guy have fun suppressing that thing and having to buy a whole new bolt just to switch ejection sides, and even when you do flip it the charging handle is still on the left side. For the X95 you also have to buy a left handed bolt and its a 4-6 MOA POS on top of that.
These guys are idiots. The x95 is inaccurate. The hellion is the most accurate bullpup. Sounds like 2 guys crying. Learn how to shoot a new weapon system. Not complain about it. That is why they are civilians. Dummies.
They are just hating on it
become right handed, idk what else to say.
I will say, this is probably one of the nicest looking bull pups in my opinion.
What did you figure out was the best LPVO mount?
The L85…blink twice if you are in trouble Brock!
*blink*
I think some reasons why civilians such as myself like the IDEA of the VHS (not using the stupid name) is because while you mostly can't mount LAMs it's really a no factor for most civilians really only needing a flashlight. I can understand a bunch of guys who all have nvgs putting a great emphasis on night use but for some of us we might be lucky if we even have a flashlight attached to the rifle itself but for $1600 it is upsetting the rifle is basically relegated to only a flashlight being mounted. As for the trigger issues the easy to swap trigger pack leaves hope that someone will make a really nice bullpup trigger for it if they haven't already. However again I have to agree for an $1600 rifle that is kind of unacceptable.
I also think people like it because it tried to solve one of the biggest issues of being a bullpup which is being ambidextrous better than really any one I can think of. For me personally using an AR I very regularly swap shoulders for the dreaded left hand peek as a traumatized Tarkov player especially because in my house specifically most of my defensive positions require me to shoulder the rifle left handed to be exposed as little as possible. I'm sure most people who actually know what they're doing don't swap sides nearly as much but for me I appreciate not only being able to shoot left handed but doing it without changing anything on the rifle. Is the length of pull obnoxious yes but I would rather have that than not being able to shoot it left handed without swapping parts. I should also mention I like my milspec stock all the way out and sometimes feel even longer would feel more comfortable without body armor and I'm 5'8"-9" so I must have some strangely long arms for my size. I think this may be the biggest reason for the VHS' popularity over other military bullpups and because it's the only one that is this ambi it's appealing to those who have avoided bullpups because of the ambi issue bringing in a bunch of people who weren't bullpup fans before.
As for optics mounting that is probably the biggest thing that makes me question buying one. I'm a red dot magnifier believer (for my area 3-4x is perfectly adequate and being more concerned with home defense I doubt I'd use the magnifier for anything that walks on two legs) Arisaka makes a low profile mount that I think would solve the height over bore issue but you're locked into eotech or aimpoint unless someone else makes a low profile mount. Also as a military bullpup with a crappy trigger I feel like mounting an LPVO is kind of a waste of glass. It seems like the rifle just isn't made for you guys and that's okay. If you use NV and LPVOs I agree this rifle is probably one of the worst bullpups. But as a strictly civilian rifle where the worst case scenario is a home defense situation without night vision I think the rifle would be good. But much like many armchair operators defending the VHS it's expensive and I don't own one so I'd love to see someone poke holes into my logic rather than finding out I just wasted $1600.
Also before someone asks why not just use an AR 1: I don't plan on getting rid of mine I think the VHS is just another tool in the toolbox that I would simply use more than an AR for "everyday" type use. 2: If I want some extra magnification or buy some NVGs one day I'll be grabbing an AR since I can mount that stuff on it better. 3: I like my longer barrels for 5.56 and being able to get those good velocities with 55gr is important to me for various reasons I won't get into, plus I want to get a suppressor one day and I can confidently say clearing my house with an A2 style AR that's about the max length I can deal with so requiring a longer barrel with a suppressor really only leaves a bullpup as an option for me and needing a true ambi rifle really only leaves the VHS for me. If someone else can do what the VHS does cheaper or solves the rail space issue and height over bore for the same price I and probably most bullpup fans will look at that as the new king of bullpups.
I have a vertical fore grip on mine and a SF G2 on the right side, it’s very easy to activate the light. Go from c clamp to gripping the VFG and the light button is right there. No crazy switches or anything
Why does HoB matter so much? Rail space seems perfectly adequate also.
@@Devin7Eleven HoB matters mostly when you're closer to the target than your zero. Most people probably wouldn't zero closer than 50 yards so for home defense when you may be fighting at 10 yards and closer the height of your sights over the bore means you have to aim higher to compensate. The AR-15 is basically the standard everyone goes by, I think with a cowitness red dot you'll have to aim roughly 1 - 1.5 inches above what you want to hit assuming a 100 yard zero and you're shooting within ten yards.
Best way to visualize it is looking at a picture of a gun draw a line from the muzzle to a target then draw a line from the sights to the target you'll see the sights have to be angled down slightly. Now if you move said target closer you'll see the line drawn from the sight will be higher than the target for the line from the muzzle to still intersect with it. That's a very simplified explanation it also has implications for shooting past your zero but I won't get into that bottom line the closer you can get your sights to the bore the better.
With the VHS using a cowitness red dot for one it seems the cheek weld itself isn't great but it looks like in the same situation you'd need to shoot somewhere like 3 inches over where you want to hit literally double. If you were to aim exactly at the heart on a human that could easily make the difference between a one shot stop and simply pissing the dude off. (Bit of hyperbole but you get the idea.) Or if you were to shoot at the head it could mean the difference between hitting the brain and hitting someone in the lips. (While still lethal in most cases I'd rather make sure I hit the true off switch not the cervical spine.)
Also the railspace issue only really applies to things that need to retain zero so illuminators both visible and IR, foregrips etc would be fine but mounting lasers to M-LOK isn't the best for holding zero. It would work for having a rough POI inside a house but at any real distance it gets bad. Which as you said perfectly adequate but when the rifle is $1600 or more adequate is kind of unacceptable when a $800 AR could do night vision stuff better.
I think this could be solved by just using the picatinny rails the Croatian military uses although I'm not sure if the handguard itself is good at holding zero. If not I'd imagine some minor design changes could get it to hold zero properly. With that in mind if you have an IR laser you're limited to the pic rail on top which isn't ideal as mentioned in the video. It can be done but compared to just buying a much cheaper AR it is a bit annoying. And even then the length of the handguard seems about the same as a milspec M4 quad rail maybe smaller which while perfect for some like myself may be a little small for others.
I think Helion would have been so much better if top rail laid flat on top of the receiver instead of being part of carry handle.
Where do you think the new WLVRN will slot in with these?
My biggest complaint with the Hellion is the mag well, It really needs a mag flair, which theres a after market part for. As for the trigger, idk if you guys got unlucky or I got lucky, but mine has a pretty long take up, then a decent break, not the best but its serviceable. My cheek riser doesn't move at all when its put together.
End of the day, its my favorite rifle I have, mostly for the looks and I don't like ARs, its one of those rifles thats just "This has a lot of flaws, this is a terrible rifle" but when I actually take it down to the range its just a fun, idk how else to say it. Just a fun gun to run.
The Hellion is not bad at all for night vision.
The handguard will kinda hold zero for a LAM since there are two plastic lugs on the front. Alternatively you can run a LAM at 12:00 with an optic sitting higher. You can mount your optic at a reasonable distance and run the stock out if you need to clear your tube.
There is the new bullpup from true velocities but good luck getting your hands on that guy lmfao
I never fired a weapon until Sand Hill (Ft. Benning). And even though I'm ETS'd. I've never shot anything "better" than mil-grade weapons. So the (admittedly) mush-trigger, was easy for me to get used to. But yes, "where's the wall? Oh! It's there...this time..." lol.
Still, I love this weapon, especially as a lefty.
PS: I used a cantilever M-LOK adapter for mounting my WML.
I'm using a Mepro MOR PRO on my Hellion, works well enough with NV and cleans up alot of the clutter
Thank you Hop for this. I knew you would deliver a VHS-2 review for me ❤
Looking forward to the eventual Desert Tech WLVN video.
The gun isnt the problem its the fact that people want to put accessories made for the AR(most are) on a non AR platform. All new hellions have the new selector. So im guessing anything not an AR is going to to get shit on.
I don't think that a variably powered optic or flashlight are particularly big demands for any modern "fighting" rifle. A problem inherent with bullpups is their lack of front-end real estate for anything other than your support hand, and the natural configuration of the weapon vs. optimal body mechanics for aiming. All this to take maybe 4-6 inches off the gun, which is quite a secondary concern for anyone not hopping out of AFVs or helicopters all the time. And as much as one can point out the lack of other legal options for a compact, "full-power" home defense weapon, I frankly don't see the problem unless your local baseheads have started breaking into places with plates and rifles (in which case my suggestions involve a U-Haul and a plane ticket out of there instead).
@michaelturk7237 all weapons should have a light and I personally think lpvos are extremely overated and trendy.
@@dib0018 Yeah, agreed. The problem comes with demanding the same things you'd demand from an AR, from an RDB or X95. They CAN have an IR laser and suppressor on them. Whether or not that can be effectively done is another story entirely.
@michaelturk7237 Well, they can if these items are designed for those platforms, but often the case is they are not.
@michaelturk7237 I'm not sure what your are putting on your fighting rifle(s). That being said all I can say is you may have limitations as to location. On my T7 I have BUIS, elcan, LAM, light, and even room for a picatinny QD. Again admittedly with a 16" handguard you have more options for your light and laser which many mount at the muzzle end since there is the C clamp grip(IMO another trend). Are bullpups perfect? Absolutely not. Do they offer solutions to some issues. Yes. Sure you have to train yourself for their layout but that's no different than a person who had never operated a firearm or you driving a car different from your daily driver. You have to learn the controls.
The hellion rifle isn't exactly a beginner's toy. it requires a level of maturity and skill to wield it effectively and, well, actually be lethal. Not everyone can handle that kind of firepower.
Love from Croatia.
There is a russian bullpup prototype AK-74 conversion that lets you switch from conventional to bullpup on the fly
I imagine it would be rather... meh as a bullpup at best thanks to the sort of compromises you'd need for the ability to have conversion.
@@thecanuckredcoat4142ukranians have their own conversion kit they are using with decent success due to the nature of trench warfare.
AR > AK.
@@Enjoyer.762 hahahahaha nope,just to prove u got kicked out afganistan by aks,vietnam aks,syria aks,somalia,and somehow muh AR wins everything hahaha
@@stip3m4m1c8 Why did the Taliban dump their AKs for those M4A1s, 416s, M110s & M110A1s, SCAR17s, and M240s the Potato Biden-Harris regime gifted to them if outdated comrade weapons are so much better?
Just ordered this from DACK outdoors a week ago, can't wait for it to get here.
Lithgow F90 is likely the pinnacle of bullpups
Lots of complaints about the trigger, but the accuracy results on this rifle have consistently been outstanding. At the end of the day, putting the bullet on target is what matters when shtf. Gucci glass break trigger or not, no arguing it gets the job done better than many other platforms.
I really want to see how the Olcan ends up.
Still have to review the last two bullpups:
K&M arms M17S
SRSS Bulldog M14 chassis
But for real the Singapore BR18 seems amazing and the new Australian Lithgow MBR seems like the best in the world and almost came here 😢
FS2000
As a fan of both youtubers I can confidently say that half of their criticisms regarding rifles are "where do i put my ir laser tho?", completely disregarding the fact that only 10% of people who care about nvg have ngv, which is also disregarding the fact that only 1% of armed citizens actually care about ngv.
1:40 - You forgot FN FS2000, Bushmaster/K+M M17S, Malyuk, Grot, Evo, etc. All ALSO military bullpups.
12:22 - Also, using the wrong ring height isn't exactly the fault of the gun. Running a +2.3" riser ON TOP OF AR15 carry handle is wrong part selection.
You need "low mount" QD 1-piece mount (GG&G SoCom-II 1.26") or ObjectiveBell/2 standard rings (1" saddle height for Razor LPVO) for "normal" cheek weld.
As an optic snob associate of Hop, this portion of video was painful to watch. PEBCAK almost, although I won't blame -- but wish more effort was applied.
we mentioned that.
We know
But if you can't actually run a LAM if you do that (which we wanted to do). Hilarious that failed too because we ran out of railspace (no room under the bell of the lpvo)
@@novagroup2 Got it, that's absolutely deserved. G36 has same issue, and B&T made a "duckbill" sort of top rail for that. So spot on.
On Sig553's (+ 1.5" T-2), Swiss Special forces even mount LAM on the RHS of trirail to clear PEQ. You're again absolutely correct.
@nathan_k it's funny the AR has had over 60 years to evolve and most if not all accessories here in the states are specifically designed for it. Then people want to try and cobble AR designed accessories on a different style rifle and when it does t work it's shit. This mindset isn't even remotely objective. Most of these channels are AR cultists. I like the AR but it's not the be all end all. This rifle has numerous attributes and now that it's here where we like to tweak our blasters I'm sure things will be much better. Lunartech designs bolt release is absolutely worth it. It and a little skate board tape behind the nub and you're cooking with gas.
@@dib0018 I'd disagree (in part). AR is a standard, and that standard won. MIL-STD-1913/STANAG 2324/4694 are only 1995+. MLOK 2014+. So parts commonality is a point.
However, only to a point. Sticking a Grendel Type-1 bolt in Type-2 platform will result in terrible headspace failures, despite "fitting". Due to improper part selection.
That's the extent of what happened here. Even LAM themselves (offset laser) is to clear obsolete M16A# fixed front sight. Proper fix is a better standard. Not redesigning the platform to suit obsolete hardware.
See: ARCA rail standard.
So been waiting for this
I'd love to see if y'all could get your hands on a K&M M17S556 which is a modern version of the old Bushmaster M17
The entire optic height problem seems like it could be solved with an MDRX style charging handle that doesn’t add much vertical space instead of a G36 style Picatinny bridge that adds two inches to height over bore
does the height over bore impact accuracy or shooting, that was the main thing that worried me about it.
you have to hold in close quarters, GBRS group has a video about height over bore with ARs, same process
I have a PSA Jakl upper, and it is just runs. It doesn't care, it just runs. PSA announced a coming bullpup lower for it and I have to believe that if they get the trigger/ergos right then a year from now it will be a strong contender, budget or not. The shooty part is already solid and proven (a first, as far as I know). If they are smart with that lower/chassis, it might just be what I/we have been waiting for.
On the Hellion, can you just remove the whole adjustable butt and associated fluff, and just attach a pad?
72 stage trigger 😂😂 had me dying
Agreed the trigger is crap. I own a PDP which has a good trigger out of the box and s EVO3 with a Czech after market trigger. These make the poor trigger stand out even more. I shot mine once to zero it and put it back in the cupboard until some one makes a decent trigger for it. Unfortunately I didn't think it would take this long 😢. Thanks for your thought's gents.
UTG has a 30mm scope mount that is abut 1.29. Would that still be too high on the hellion?
The F2000 had serious military adoption. Not as much as the AUG or Tavor, but a big deal in Slovenia and Saudi Arabia. The trigger and OEM optic are awful, but it solves the ejection problem without sacrificing reliability.
The 2 biggest issues I have with the Hellion are weight and length of pull. I love a lot of things about this rifle but damn its heavy and the length of pull just makes it flat out uncomfortable for me. Cost is also a factor currently. Maybe the orice will come down later. Unfortunately weight and length of pull arent something that can be fixed by the aftermarket.
Is the scalarworks scope mount good?
I wonder why they dont extend the barrel and rail even farther. Basically just get an extended barrel on a normal AR length rather than a standard barrel on a shorter AR length
Been running a Hellion for a while now. My fix for light placement was getting a magpul cantilever pic rail, and running the light on my off-hand side so I could just thumb the button. Works well that way, no wires and allows me to grip the rifle as normal. For optics, I went with an EOTech Xps2 with a magnifier. At close range, I aim with the bottom "peg" on the large circle, and that more or less compensates for the height-over-bore issue. Can't speak on any fixes for lasers because I'm too poor to afford NVG's.
Honestly surprised ya'll havent tried a bullpup chassis kit. A3 triad looks super promising as far as the closest ergonomics to a traditional bullpup with a foxtrot mike upper. Thought about trying the reap weaponry SCY but when i saw that the A3 is way more bullpup esc with a cleaner build i decided to wait for that.
TFB/TV Averaged 1.6 inch groups at 100,Yards with a standout 1.2,inch group using all types of ammo cheap and expensive. Around 65 grain ammo was best. And that was with a stock VHS2 16 inch barrel they abused Puting it through a torture test on a previous episode.Alabama Arsenal got hits at 1000 yards with there Hellion. Maybe you guys are just not that good and are blaming the gun for your own inadequacy on the firing range. Cheers
there's more to a gun than raw mechanical accuracy. A 200 dollar barrel on a AR can do what you just describe. The bar is just really low on bullpups
@@novagroup2 go watch the torture test TFB/tv and honest outlaw put the Hellion through and still not a failure then do the same to your AR. Let me know how it went.
A 90 degree pic adapter for IR lasers seem to be the only option to not block a low mounted optic
Nice costco jacket Brock, how does it rank as a preparedness garmet?
So Tavor 7?
Height over bore looks INSANE.... I'll stick with my boring direct impingement. When I feel fancy I'll just take out my 16.1" LWRCI piston.
If you want to use the laser on the Hellion just use a GBRS Hydra mount and pretend like you still have a good cheek weld.
The Hydra should be mounted on a Unity riser for best results.
I do not understand why Hop is so obsessed with c-clamping the hellion's carry handle. You don't have to c-clamp everything. Throw a foregrip on it, and do aforementioned the surefire setup. It's fine.
Did you miss the part about the MAWL
@@Hoplopfheil No, I saw it. Just use a different LAM. The MAWL is great, it just doesn't work on a platform it wasn't designed for.