China and the end of the liberal order
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- Опубліковано 7 кві 2020
- Is the end of the Western liberal order at hand? What are the defects of liberalism? Can China serve as an alternative political model? What should political legitimacy be based on? Check out the entire debate: nexus-instituut.nl/en/activit...
With former President of the European Commission José Manuel Barroso, Chinese political theorist and venture capitalist Eric Li and political theorist Mitchell Cohen.
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Eric is my hero!! He is a humble, educated, super articulate individual.
This team of scholars has actually been made to look a bit silly by one man. They have been utterly out debated here, no doubt about it.
Last 10 seconds shows exactly what Eric described earlier- “we are liberal so we have total legitimacy- no matter what”, this old scholar holds that idea firmly stubbornly.
liberal legitimacy is via democratic elections. Autocratic legitimacy is through repression.
Yeah as if the average Taiwanese have enough understanding of the world to make a conscious decision, instead of being played like a paw.
@@LucasBustamante1 They have a free press. They can decide. Meanwhile the CCP says to the Chinese people the majority of Taiwanese want to join China which is a big lie
@@LucasBustamante1They know want the CCP stands for and don't want to be part of it
@@Andy-P 1.4B chinese people also have a say on how taiwan should be managed
That last point by Eric reverberated around the wold.
I love Eric.. he is so intelligent, so well read n brilliant in his history research.. n he can think fast on his feet hence great in backing his words n in answering the others but remain respectful n humble.. beautiful man he is
I wonder how it will turn out if Nexus Institute assembles 8 Chinese and only 1 Western thinkers to debate this same topic. It would be interesting too.
Eight people from a single country, which has been ruled by a single party for quite some time, and one person representing the rest of such a multi cultural world?! LOl.. Would you call that a debate? HAHAH
In this debate you have people from different backgrounds, with different political views.. wtf is wrong with u?
I echo with you but with one modification to suggest: 9 thinkers who represented the multilateral polars of the world in proportion, including 6 from the developed countries including Eric Li and a female from China, 4 others from Russia, Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa, and 3 Western thinkers including 1 American and 2 Western Europeans, to debate this same topic.
@@China-bizvalueinstories , Yes, this is more inclusive. Should give it a try.
People don't understand China system, they thought they knew how China works, but if they knew how China works why did they fail to stop China? because they have no understanding of China that is why China keeps improving , and if China keeps improving that means what? China understand how the world works
It would make as fair sense as 10 white guys beating up one black guy.....
what insightful thoughts that Eric Li offered here.
Another is Mr Kishore Mahbubani, former President of United Nations Security Council, and an Indian Hindu. His famous quote ”American Plutocracy versus Chinese Meritocracy” define well the weakness of US political system in its current form and the unstoppable rise of China
The power of Li’s statement comes largely from his acknowledgement of the non-liberal nature of China, I think all scholars and politicians should learn from it: base your arguments on at least some ground truth, the attempt to evade the questions will only undermine your point. He made a better speech than Zhang from this perspective.
I've watched both of the forums in 2017 and 2019, as an exchange student to china, I totally understand zhang's situation that most of the 'ground truth' about china is not exactly correct,which is far from what in china,he just want speak out the 'pre-conclusion' of the liberal china
In other words, there will be no more gays, lesbians, transgenders, Black folk, Jews, etc... when China takes over?
So how do you say, 'Sieg Heil,' in Mandarin?
@@beaman_2000 as a chinese live in china for 40 years I find your point is wrong
Mr Li held his ground with calm confidence against 8 westerners arguing the other way
Neo-liberal societies are really democratic plutocracies. They profess democracy that they themselves do not have. Neo-liberalism has created poverty while in China which seems to be a social-democratic meritocracy, poverty alleviation is a total country endeavor. Businesses, governments from the federal level as well as the regional and local level work together to help the poorer areas of the country to escape poverty permanently. In some cases, businesses expand into rural areas. In other cases state-owned enterprises set up training and workshops for employment or entrepreneurial assistance to farmers. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHINA'S EFFORTS AND THE WEST IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT CARES ABOUT PEOPLE IN CHINA!!
Now is time to learn from China how to “lock the capital in the cage”, by the people, and for the people, instead of 1% rich.
I like how the video cuts off when Mr. Cohen is trying to interrupt Eric's response by saying "I'm not asking you a question blahblahblah", lol
Mr. Cohen is trying to state that, "just because System A has problems, doesn't mean that System B is good". He is correct, but the irony is that his country is doing exactly the opposite. Just as Eric pointed out, since the end of the World War 2, the West has been shamelessly pointing fingers at other political systems to legitimize their actions against other countries, these actions include economic sanctions, pollical revolution and coups, and sometime outright invading them militarily. This is exactly the "Imperial Overstretching" that Eric is talking about, and is what caused inequality in the West, and suffering all over the world.
It is truly refreshing to see China doing so well recently, and is starting to expose the problems of the West. When the Chinese point out the problems of the West, westerners like Mr. Cohen act so offended and defensive, while the West had been doing the exact same thing and more to other countries in the past 70 years.
He’s offended largely because he was outsmarted by Eric, less because Eric pointed out the true issue of the west. He felt dumb, we all feel these bunch are dumb and outsmarted.
This comment did not age well. China is collapsing. Like all dictatorships over time.
The West should not stuff their ideologies down the throats of everybody else. The West needs to learn that their ideologies are not perfect and respect the opinions of others.
Everything he said was true, because we are seeing it now
“When the Chinese keep quiet, the American thought they are stupid.” Malaysian Chinese’s proverb who graduated from American university.
If it's coming from a Malaysian Chinese, you know absolutely nothing good will come out of it...
Eliot Roger was raised by a conniving Malayan Chinese mom...
@@aslouie . One case is the final verdict. You probably have never been out of your great country. The Malay proverb; a frog 🐸 under the coconut shell. Is it your situation?
@@andywong9847 Well, it seems I'm now talking with a frog that's been under a dogmatically Han-centric bubble for far too long, so if it takes one to know one, maybe it's more about how long have you've ever been outside of your comfort zone?
And FYI, the Malayans did nothing wrong when they killed some insufferable Han chauvinist Chinese, back in the 50's/60's....
@@aslouie . Did they killed the Chinese? Or communists? Or Japanese during the occupation? I don’t live in Malaya.
@@andywong9847 Why then the reference with said Malayan Chinese proverb? But then again, with what's been going on of late with mainland China & the CCP, if such race riots were to happen again in Malaysia in current year, I don't know if China will garner enough world opinion on her side, given how much Xi Jinping's hellbent on keeping China communist as long as possible--and let's just say, what's been going on since the PRC's founding--or especially since 2012 or so with Xi's presidency, killing off Malayan Han Chinese could be seen by many as killing the last vestiges of 20th century/boomer communism, this side of some famed Polish journalist/mercenary.
Why？Nexus Institute has never released the full version of this conversation？Because it makes the western looks ugly? Common, give me the truth, not clips.
Here is a full version: ua-cam.com/video/nZ2DDFSDfTQ/v-deo.html
Li speaks with substance and confidence, others blah blah 😀
That's because you agree with him and not the others.
把自由當成一種主義(-ism), 還進一步無限上綱成普世價值, 這種心態本身就是極端的邪惡!!!
大多数西方底层人没有受良好教育的自由，只有死亡的自由，堕落的自由
来，还记得我们的社会主义核心价值观吗？这可是高中程度的知识 : - )
honestly，中国没有这样的学术自由去公开的讨论这样的政治话题而不沦落为一边倒的宣扬社会主义的说教。
@@linyu9767 实践需要过程，老百姓生活有实惠是最重要的
@@user-hk9vd1ki9o 党内的讨论尺度惊人，你不知道而已
Love Eric Li! the man is super smart and know what he’s talking about.
Bingo!!!! He sees it, and I hope the others are listening.
He is inspiring.
Long live tyranny!
Got 'em good at the end
How about releasing the entire discussion?
ua-cam.com/video/nZ2DDFSDfTQ/v-deo.html
Liberalism is idealistic vs realistic. Mainly for the rich n intellects.
With over 1.42 billion people n over 52 ethnicities, China is too large n diverse to dabble in liberalism. Too many chiefs n not enough Indians one would say. A lot of people don’t realise that over 90% of the population in China was illiterate pre 1949.
over 90% Cjhinese population is Han. The rest are 52 ethnicities. Different races don't exclude democracy. India is bigger than China and is a democracy
@@Andy-P you really need to study Chinese and India history bro. Do you know how many n how complex India’s ethnicity is??
India a democracy?? Laughable 🤣🤣. Now study up on ancient and modern history of India. Then We talk.
Do you seriously believe that a true democracy exists? If it did it would never get things done. Learn geopolitics as well.
@@yogi9631 Democracy is always work in progress. Yes I realise India has a complex make up - helps the point I am making.
@@Andy-P keep dreaming. democracy is too many chiefs n not enough Indians, pardon the pun.
@@yogi9631 Yes I pardon the pun :-). Democracy is freedom autocracy is repression. Democracies need independent institutions and an inclusive society. If these don't exist then Democracy cannot survive. India is back sliding since Modi took over.
4:30 Complacency of the liberal society may defeat the liberalism, Current Chinese party is constantly has the sense of crisis and how they delivered, that’s what I mean by legitimacy.
6:10 We have problems doesn’t legitimize you.
very well said
The video doesn't show Eric answer. His reply was excellent. You can search online.
This is the same as Scotland, Irish, Wales in the UK they want independence, similar to Barcelona in Spain, Hawaii in the US, Sabah & Sarawak in Malaysia, there are many separatists & extremists fighting for self governance & independence. Taiwan-China had been signed by the rest of the world, including the US, UK, Spain, etc. Why this is not an issue to US & the collective west to defending their democratic value by dump arms, funding & training the separatist there????
I feel so sad for the Afghanistan lady and her country. China has been colonised for many decades in history and that history still reminds we Chinese the importance of sovereignty, people's dignity, and peaceful growths. I think I almost can feel her sorrow and anger. Wish her and her country can enjoy peace and development in the future.
Agree! and freedom of speech and thinking.... and friendship ... human decency regardless of colour, religion or sex or political views...
When was China colonised... by the Mongols....the Manchu's? Western nations only held tiny pieces
Eric Le is roasting them
im here again to read comments😇
Eris is so patience ..the rest of the those analyst dont even been to China
Bravo to China Rise Peacefully ! ! !
You can help another country in the path of democracy but do not control, input, manipulate and dictate every single move in the process.
I agree 100% with the Eric Li. He doesn't use pretentious or "hard to understand" language, he goes straight to the point.
The french guy is stuck in the 1990s with the "end of history" narrative
I couldn't understand the american guy he just wanted to mention Taiwan for some reason which had nothing to do with the topic
西方人：闭嘴，我们在谈论自由
中国人：errrrr
不要告诉他们，把他们永远留在黑暗中骄傲自满吧，邓说得隐晦一点：韬光养晦
Why did the channel cut off Eric's response? 😂
It was just a clip. They didn't "cut off" his response. 😅😅😅 You can watch the whole video. Any more conspiracies you believe in!?😅😅😅😂
Durão Barroso is right. Ex urss countries are much better now. They went from full employment to record unemployed, now they finally have people sleeping and begging in the streets, prostitution, they no longer have free education and free health care, their streets are no longer safe, they have mafia and oligarcs who own major centers of power, they now do not own their land or their factories and their resources, they finally have to ask permission to brussels to use their territory, obey to the imf to acess the world market and nato (usa) in defense issues. They are much better yeah
One system can fit the whole world
Damn!!这个李是谁？讲的很好！我觉得比张维迎要远远更直击要害
观察者网创始人之一
校长和讲师的差别吧
主要是这一波讨论者的态度也远比张教授那一期友好谦虚并且水平也高得多。
张玮玮的bossXD
李世默
Liberal democracy holds a mirror up to it's people - for better or worse. I certainly think we all in the West need to ponder what we see. A key difference for the West is that at least we can freely discuss our reflection.
But that is the problem whatever mistakes or merit you see is only your reflection never another perspective.
If you think china does not reflect their results, than you are naive, no country can improve so much in such a short time as china, if they didn't self reflect and improve on their mistakes. thus even china have free discussions and reflections, otherwise it cannot function that well, even in an authoritarian country.
@@wesseldejonge4789 True. Yet no country can rely on the levels of surveillance and control that China does without there being something fundamentally brittle at its core.
@@jasonrose6288 I don't agree with this aswell, even in the West governments realize more and more that national security is continuously at risk, and there is external as domestic threats. for example radicalization of trump supporters or foreign terrorist threats of extremists, or even gun violence or police brutality if we take USA as a further example. these are all threats that need to be tackled, and china does it with strict surveillance, balances and checks, it has nothing to do with brittle fundaments, it is actually trying to strenghten their fundaments to create a safe society for everyone, not for just a few.
@@wesseldejonge4789 Sure, whether the population agrees with the government's policies or not. That's not a society I want to live in - and thankfully, I don't.
自由 民主都是好东西，我们需要，可是自由 民主需要被政治化么？当然是不需要的。
Li shimo always wins!
Unbelievable intelligence 🎉 ..I love you man ❤...before I listening other videos H Kong..and Taiwan..🎉again..Australia makes some stupid Q. About neighborhood Afghanistan 😂they sow world with their eyes..what it's their enemy's ""think it's for you or others...thx
liberalism will lead to ego, self-centred. Real goal to pursue should be democracy. Voting has nothing to do with democracy in my opinion. Real democracy to me is that at least people have the rights for affordable health care, affordable education, a stable and rule-of-law society to live in.
You wont be able to vote for that.. but its true you may be lucky to achieve (benevolent dictator style; good monarch)....freedom of thought then becomes the luxury good most wont have.. (don't get me wrong, untamed capitalism can mean loss of free thought too; especially with modern social media)...
🤣🤣🤣👍💪💪💪💪💪💝💝💝💝💝
Please end it my god
A.G.I Will be man's last invention ai will rule the world
Good points from Eric here. Democracy must be nurtured through education and wealth-creation. Most countries adopt authoritarian/dictatorships with top-down corruption.
Democracy in US now is a huge TV shopping show which has never delivered. established for distract people‘s attention from economic and society conflict
and no Chinese care about what system you guys ues，just remove you pointing finger away.
@@user-bh7bk6xy7u I agree with you my friend. The US democracy has been unsuccessful in many ways. I don't really blame TV shopping, but instead false advertising. People everywhere should be paying attention to what their lawmakers are doing, and freely criticize it of their own free will.
@@user-bh7bk6xy7u Normally agree with you. my friend. There is too much simplistic criticism of China. But not in this video. China is the subject of this discussion.
@@bobbarkeriii2597 don't take this discussion seriously until these western scholars make some valid points . One of them said" I mean Europe even we are not happy with political systems, but its much better than Poland, Totalitarian Communism , etc I mean, it goes without saying we are much better blablabla" There is no context of this judgement, it can be shortened to " we better, you big bad" . it's not an intellectual level speech.
Eric Li got it wrong that liberalism especially its political aspect had a 300 year run. Liberalism in its present form only started with the Cold War. Before that procedural democracy, aka universal suffrage, and full scale capitalism were practiced but bits of socialism were in place even in countries like UK and USA after World War 2. Going further back, executive monarchies and colonialism were the in thing.
liberalism come from western country ，its not from China‘s own cultrue.of course ，China just give you another option to rule coutry，as you said，China is rapidly develop just the time libraism begin，you can campare them .its fine you dont take it.China wont press thier way to other country.What China what is just respecr
@@ycw4335 China is not exporting their governance as an option, they believe their way of governance is purely tailor to its ppl and its country, China. So you always hear Xi says socialism with chinese characteristic s. As Eric Li said in his other forums, chinas model of governance is not exportable, he argues that each country should model their governance on their own specific needs and culture.
He was talking about liberalism in a broader sense - both politically and economically. The acknowledged official start of capitalist liberalism is the emergence of the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith
@@Ninjaaaa9999 The West is acting like God, it wants to make every country on earth into its own image, disgusting!
你要自由干什么
wallace 理直气壮自私，贪婪，甚至伤害他人
不干什么，可以不带口罩。
不知道怎么用自己的自由，那一定是世界上最低的人。
@@sjoerdios1 那你可以尝试回答一下
wallace 是每个人自己决定的，是自由的意思。问题是在中国你什么自由没有？比如说言论自由。在中国人们没有民主主义社会那么影响环境的自由，社会更安静但是也有点无聊。在美欧社会比中国热闹，不是不是大部分都是坏的事情，也有很多音乐节，戏剧，协会。我觉得更重要的问题是没有批评政策的自由，这影响大学和媒体，这影响人们的想法。如果一直听话，一致同意，自己没有问题。但是你不要反对还是不同意的自由吗？西方人也怕专制是因为历史，不只他们自己的历史。政府越强，民主越弱。终于不同意但是没办法反对了。
I wish he can speak like Lee Kuan yew..Eric is too soft body language too is not upto mark!
Give it time; I think currenlty he is the only person( Chinese) who can speak out as he did!
Barroso is so soo a liar and dishonest.
This dude is a spin doctor....
不要尝试去改变其它国家制度，也不要去批评。因为没人愿意被你改变，他们只想拿你的好处。老宣扬自己好的地方是一种很愚的做法。年纪太轻，见识太浅。进锡、维维应该闭嘴，聪明反被聪明误。国际间行走还是要老谋深算（中国人最缺的就是这奌）。实话实说很容易着了别人的道。你不闭嘴我只有捂耳了。你们的智慧简直惨不忍睹。
在国际间行走就是要大声说出自己的想法。什么都不说，话语权就是人家的。看看印度比比中国，无论是个人还是国家，在国际间的声誉都在他们自身实力之上，这其中有其他原因，但能说会道让别人了解你也是原因之一。随之而来的就是现实的好处。儒家思想对内是统治者的基础，对外就应该用丛林法则。
就是要说出来，之前就是因为不说让西方国家站上了舆论的高低，对他国指指点点
@@iqbang9236 我完全同意对外用丛林法则，但要有度的把握，要有所区别。同为丛林，人家惯用了他的为何要转用你的？就象售货一样，让别人试用到你的好处，其作用多过去踩另外产品。中国几十年来的飞速发展别人看不到吗？他们没有感觉吗？印度不是反华吗？莫迪不也要来深圳取经吗？试想，你向印度分析两国制度的优劣性，並建议他转用你的，莫迪还会来吗？印度的｀声誉＇来自能说会道吗？我不觉得印度有国际声誉。印度在国际上只有两种角色：棋子或弃子。在围阻中国时他是棋子，在申請入常时是弃子。朋友来了有好酒，但不能因为你有酒而去砸别人碗。疯狗来了有战狼，但只针对彭佩奥、莫里森之流。駡人可以，但别骂人娘。这就是度的把握。我不是公知，但感谢你的意见。
@@user-ug2in5tf1x 说到高地可能会让你失望；中国在十年二十年间都不会站在高奌。这个世界本来就是资本主义世界，社会主义只是小后生。社会主义的出现不是用来代替资本主义，而是作为一种补充来平衡资本主义。说不说，多大声说都改变不了这亇事实。现在谈谈｀说＇多了的反效果。川普为何不带口罩？为何不封城？因为中国先做了。他再做的话等于向世界宣佈：中国是对的，大家要跟着做。他肯吗？他宁愿死几十万人。弃用华为5G他的理由是安全问题。中国向欧卅解释没有问题，一开始他们也信了决定使用。如果有一个中国学者公开表示西方的制度不如东方，应该改变，会有什么后果？川普会对欧卅说：看见了吧，中国是想改变我们的制度。5G是前哨战，先控制我们的通讯。------一个学者的高谈阔论坐实了川普的谎言。欧卅还会用华为吗？
@@shaloihui1794 幼稚 弱懦 天真 肤浅
Neo-liberal societies are really democratic plutocracies. They profess democracy that they themselves do not have. Neo-liberalism has created poverty while in China which seems to be a social-democratic meritocracy, poverty alleviation is a total country endeavor. Businesses, governments from the federal level as well as the regional and local level work together to help the poorer areas of the country to escape poverty permanently. In some cases, businesses expand into rural areas. In other cases state-owned enterprises set up training and workshops for employment or entrepreneurial assistance to farmers. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHINA'S EFFORTS AND THE WEST IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT CARES ABOUT PEOPLE IN CHINA!!