Robert Louis Stevenson's 1886 novella "The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyda" provides a basis for discussion of the concepts of REPRESSION and DISSOCIATION.
I’ve been thinking about this story as it relates to Ted Bundy - and the urges that possessed him , eventually bringing forth his inner “Entity”, that took him down an extremely dark road
My understanding was that the difference is in what is the purpose of the process i.e. repression of the material vs dissociation from the self. Thank you for your videos, they are simply great!
Quite challenging for me as a neurologist as some of symptoms you describe could be organic and are seen in epileptic seizures Depersonalixation and derelization, spatio-temporal confusion... subtle boundaries...
Yes, I once had a patient who had defended against his verbally abusive father by “tuning out“. Many of his employers had complained of his doing this, as did his wife and children. I had assumed this was a repetition of his childhood defense. One day he had a grand mal seizure. On investigation it turned out that his absences were petit mal seizures. On medication the problem cleared up.
As I remember Kohut's first book "The analysis of the self" there was even a drawing in it illustrating the vertical and the horizontal split of the psyche. There he says that the horizontal split is maintained by repression and the vertical split is maintained by disavowal. Repressed things are entirely missing from the consciousness, the patient simply does not "know" them and does not able to reflect on them. On the other hand, disavowed things are "known" by the patiend but he seems to put this knowledge completely aside and behaves as if he did not know it. He does not close out the knowledge itself but he entirely closes out the significance and the consequences of the knowledge. According to Kohut, while disavowed parts of the personality can contain ego elements as well (may be that's why they are consciously elaborated to an extent) it is no good to speak to these elements in therapy, because they are only fragments to integrate. The analyst's ally is the relatively intact real ego and he has to be in conversation with this part of the patient's personality. These of my readings were immediately come to my mind from 20 years ago when I watched your video, professor Carveth, and I think it justifies what You just said. Grat lecture again!
I really appreciated your quote from Freud. That experiencing conflict motivates growth and change, defending against conflict misses out on drive to change. So one could say that avoiding conflict can be a trauma response? Not all the time. But I've found myself with conflicting thoughts. Where I will say yes out loud yet internally mean no. Great video and has me thinking ❤
I love the pairing of psychoanalysis and story Jordan Peterson has a wonderful reading of Pinocchio I’ve recently been thinking about the Wizard of Oz in terms of attachment theory 🙋♀️
Hi Don Reading meeting the shadow a collection of essays and reflections on this central topic ,again 29:00 Suddenly yes ,the clarity correction and beautifull simplicity ,dare to say it as it is ,"what the hell are you doing exactly ,my thoughts are such therapists mental health nurses proffessionals are themselves deeply repressed and welded to their convention ,the process of polarisation of fundamental mistrust they dare not entertain the neurotic pyschotic ,autistic aspects in themselves so are afraid to call it out ,sadly this is indicative of the times we live in out ,.That surely is at the heart of Shadow Work . 33:00 in No I don't think they are perhaps one is more extreme inwardly violent so I remember the brilliantly simple group analyst therapist insisted at the start we check in with our feelings ,and repeatedly at various points would bring us back, as is all the usefull body work. Like the weird one I think all day relatively sexualy repressive or without a real sense , conscious suppression ! gives ways to irresistible arousal before ,in and during sleep. Dissacociation is the name of the game for neurotic normals ,the ritualised formal civilised World we live in ,oh never say F..k,don't get angry ,say or do anything which might lead others to believe I am not the person I am or rather try to be , or think myself to be, pretence identification with roles and ideals ,the fear of being seen as not that as a Dr Jeckyl ,the priests who abuse for years ,the nice business man con artist on and f..on it goes Don ,yet no let's pretend,.. They drive me f..mad ! Post LENT group with retired priest couple in would be take over ,it kinda feels they just don't get it ,trenchant church y,Y,as Jesus said woe to you scribes and pharisees you love to go around in fine clothes and being seen to be somebody my para prhasing but inside ..You ,how can you tell ,for them a society without rules would be chaos ,they fear spontaneity ,will never answer valid criticisms and always move towards control How can you work with such people ,even Jesus would scream enough !
Thank you for this talk & great to listen too. Just wondering about your thoughts here..in the case of early childhood trauma. In your opinion would this potentially be viewed as in the area of repression rather than dissociation as this is laid down as somatic memory , basically they have not been established/processed via the executive part of the brain. Thanks again.
@@doncarveth Thank you for your comment back. I have just downloaded an article to read re that link. I practice as an Art Psychotherapist and work with patients that suffer C-PTSD I use arts mediums in sessions to facilitate connections with emotion/un process affect. It is believed the creative arts helps process information from a sensory based angle (bottom up processing) then potentially helps the forming of connections (top down processing) thereby making sense of their experience. This begs the additional question around the potential of reclaimed memory from the repressed memory etc etc. Any other thoughts/articles around this from your perspective...would be greatly welcome. Thank you.
I had a patient who all his life had been fighting against what he felt to be forces trying to hold him down. He suffered from claustrophobia. I got him to ask his sister how things have been when he was an infant. She would come home from school at lunch and The mother would still be asleep in the dark and stinky bedroom and the baby would be awake lying silently and still in the crib and then she noticed the straps holding him down. He had no memory whatever of this. There have been zero process. But his whole world was trying to strap him down. Beginning to put all of this into words or into drawings or into paintings Is gradually beginning to process the unprocessed. But I don’t see any rule for “memories” here. Read Joseph Fernando’s works on trauma. There is a new book just out or about to come out.
Very interesting and germane subject. Compartmentalization, dissociation, DP/DR can become so intense as to resemble separate "stranger" entities, but seems to me that is exceedingly rare ... and the "popularity" of DID is mostly BS. Agree with Carveth that we all are doing some or much of this, and it's pretty much a standard part of the human condition, often scarily so.
Just watched your video on narcissism. Obviously you hate us as much as we hate ourselves. We made bad choices from the start. We turned our rage inwards. It is a sin I agree. What should we have done instead? We keep avoiding the guilt. What do you suggest? We chose to escape from reality and attack life. And now we are too busy trying to avoid suicide. What is your contempt about? These are genuine questions. Hope I won't be ghosted.
Listen, don’t you realize I am a narcissist to? I became one in reaction to my mothers, alcoholism and an early hospitalization. I’ve struggled with it all my life. Why do you think I right so much about guilt? But you ask what’s the solution? For me it was re-finding Jesus Christ. I grew up in the Anglican church. Lost it all at puberty. Got it back in my 40s. I guess you would say I am a secular Christian, I believe, and I do not believe. Jesus came to attack religion, and the super ego in favour of conscience.
@@doncarveth I see, thank you, but you should say it. So you also struggle with fear of being evil Iguess. You have contempt for yourself because you complied (or submiited yor masochistic self as xou say) to be accepted by your parents.You wished you could have declared your indépendance instead or or easy going taken life as a play been able to charm yor parents to get your needs met. I guess. I am relieved but I am not doing well. I think it's time to be kind with ourselves. I think the starting point eas a paranoic. At tomes of fear we elect tyrants temperament.
I was curious about how Chat GBT would answer the question "did Freud know about the novela?" Here's what I got. Yes, Sigmund Freud was aware of Robert Louis Stevenson's novella "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". It is believed that Freud was influenced by the duality of human nature depicted in the novel and incorporated the concept of the "dual self" into his psychoanalytic theories. In the novella, the protagonist Dr. Jekyll transforms into the evil Mr. Hyde, representing the dichotomy between good and evil in human nature. This idea of a dual self, where individuals have both good and bad impulses, is similar to Freud's concept of the id, ego, and superego, where the id represents primitive and instinctual desires, the ego represents rational and logical decision-making, and the superego represents moral and ethical values. It is worth noting, however, that while "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" may have influenced Freud, the idea of a dual self has a long history in Western thought, dating back to ancient Greek philosophy. Creepy but interesting.
@@doncarveth Your welcome. I am wondering how these rapidly developing AI's will be integrated into the analytic framework? Also I'd love to hear critique of Dr Strange love within the analytic construct. Thanks again.
@@doncarveth Professor Carveth, i know you already did a fantastic lecture on Lacan which is more than enlightening, but i was wondering what your thoughts are on Lacans concept of the way a subject is structured (i.e. Neurotic, Psychotic, Pervers). As a layman it is Impossible for me to judge the credibility of lacans claims, but considering how there are different ways of conceptualizing personality in Psychoanalysis, Lacans concept of these strict unchangeable structures seems to be rather unpopular, but i could be totally wrong here. I suppose as somewhat of a kleinian (correct me if i'm wrong) you prefer to stick to the two positions and maybe there is no need for further conceptualization of personality, or is there? But then again, it seems like Otto Kernberg for example, has a quite complex idea of personality, but in a somewhat different way than lacan, right? But on the other hand Lacans concept of the genesis of psychosis seems to be the most sophisticated way of thinking about it. Anyway, your work is much appreciated and i'm glad to see you are still active, Professor, i hope you are doing well. Your channel truly is a treassure.
@@VigiliusHaufniensis I find Laban’s categories too rigid. I believe there is overlap. I likeKernberg much better but his categorization seems a bit overelaborated at rimes. We do need more than Klein’s PS/D. But it is easy for intellectual types to become obsessed with all this categorization as opposed to sitting “without memory or desire“ with each uniquely individual patient.
@@doncarveth I seem to remember from one or more of your lectures that you proposed/suggested a third position, using Klein as the starting point. Wasn't it about conscience? Or am I off track here and I confuse starting structures and evolved personality traits?
@@fagica you are not wrong, but I intended in this video to address the issue of repression versus dissociation. It would be a very different lecture if I had wanted to address the issue of conscience. A colleague of mine is interested in that very issue.
Hello Don, I’ve been avidly watching your videos since 2017. One thing I haven’t heard you talk about much is the pace of introjection in psychoanalysis. Is there much to say about it?
Complicated. Not sure what you are getting at by the “pace” of introspection. I certainly believe that a cure by introjection is far from a genuine cure.
Sorry Don, typo. I meant the place of introjection. I’m interested in how much of culture we learn via introjection. If all the nasty stuff from society is expressed in the persecutory voice of the superego don’t we introject the voice of the superego from outside us to then regurgitate to attack ourselves or others?
@@davidclarke9215 but remember, the core of the super ego is end aggression turned against the self. Internalized, societal ideology and norms is the second layer.
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I’ve been thinking about this story as it relates to Ted Bundy - and the urges that possessed him , eventually bringing forth his inner “Entity”, that took him down an extremely dark road
Yes agree ... when Bundy dramatically started talking about that inner entity, the interviewer inanely changed the subject.
My understanding was that the difference is in what is the purpose of the process i.e. repression of the material vs dissociation from the self. Thank you for your videos, they are simply great!
Thank you for the lectures. Please consider making lectures on Intelligence and attachment theories
Quite challenging for me as a neurologist as some of symptoms you describe could be organic and are seen in epileptic seizures
Depersonalixation and derelization, spatio-temporal confusion... subtle boundaries...
Yes, I once had a patient who had defended against his verbally abusive father by “tuning out“. Many of his employers had complained of his doing this, as did his wife and children. I had assumed this was a repetition of his childhood defense. One day he had a grand mal seizure. On investigation it turned out that his absences were petit mal seizures. On medication the problem cleared up.
As I remember Kohut's first book "The analysis of the self" there was even a drawing in it illustrating the vertical and the horizontal split of the psyche. There he says that the horizontal split is maintained by repression and the vertical split is maintained by disavowal. Repressed things are entirely missing from the consciousness, the patient simply does not "know" them and does not able to reflect on them. On the other hand, disavowed things are "known" by the patiend but he seems to put this knowledge completely aside and behaves as if he did not know it. He does not close out the knowledge itself but he entirely closes out the significance and the consequences of the knowledge. According to Kohut, while disavowed parts of the personality can contain ego elements as well (may be that's why they are consciously elaborated to an extent) it is no good to speak to these elements in therapy, because they are only fragments to integrate. The analyst's ally is the relatively intact real ego and he has to be in conversation with this part of the patient's personality. These of my readings were immediately come to my mind from 20 years ago when I watched your video, professor Carveth, and I think it justifies what You just said. Grat lecture again!
Thanks. But that explanation by covert would seem to justify manifest content therapy.
I really appreciated your quote from Freud. That experiencing conflict motivates growth and change, defending against conflict misses out on drive to change. So one could say that avoiding conflict can be a trauma response? Not all the time. But I've found myself with conflicting thoughts. Where I will say yes out loud yet internally mean no. Great video and has me thinking ❤
Good, thanks
Is he comparing the pack mentality of his public self in Victorian society to a jackle?
Listen on 1.75x for Ben Shapiro speed
Hilarious
I love the pairing of psychoanalysis and story Jordan Peterson has a wonderful reading of Pinocchio I’ve recently been thinking about the Wizard of Oz in terms of attachment theory 🙋♀️
"If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."
Thanks!
Hi Don
Reading meeting the shadow a collection of essays and reflections on this central topic ,again 29:00 Suddenly yes ,the clarity correction and beautifull simplicity ,dare to say it as it is ,"what the hell are you doing exactly ,my thoughts are such therapists mental health nurses proffessionals are themselves deeply repressed and welded to their convention ,the process of polarisation of fundamental mistrust they dare not entertain the neurotic pyschotic ,autistic aspects in themselves so are afraid to call it out ,sadly this is indicative of the times we live in out ,.That surely is at the heart of Shadow Work .
33:00 in No I don't think they are perhaps one is more extreme inwardly violent so I remember the brilliantly simple group analyst therapist insisted at the start we check in with our feelings ,and repeatedly at various points would bring us back, as is all the usefull body work.
Like the weird one I think all day relatively sexualy repressive or without a real sense , conscious suppression ! gives ways to irresistible arousal before ,in and during sleep.
Dissacociation is the name of the game for neurotic normals ,the ritualised formal civilised World we live in ,oh never say F..k,don't get angry ,say or do anything which might lead others to believe I am not the person I am or rather try to be , or think myself to be, pretence identification with roles and ideals ,the fear of being seen as not that as a Dr Jeckyl ,the priests who abuse for years ,the nice business man con artist on and f..on it goes Don ,yet no let's pretend,..
They drive me f..mad !
Post LENT group with retired priest couple in would be take over ,it kinda feels they just don't get it ,trenchant church y,Y,as Jesus said woe to you scribes and pharisees you love to go around in fine clothes and being seen to be somebody my para prhasing but inside ..You ,how can you tell ,for them a society without rules would be chaos ,they fear spontaneity ,will never answer valid criticisms and always move towards control How can you work with such people ,even Jesus would scream enough !
Thank you for this talk & great to listen too. Just wondering about your thoughts here..in the case of early childhood trauma. In your opinion would this potentially be viewed as in the area of repression rather than dissociation as this is laid down as somatic memory , basically they have not been established/processed via the executive part of the brain. Thanks again.
Probably neither repression Nord Association, but what my Kahlig Joseph Fernando calls “zero process.“
@@doncarveth Thank you for your comment back. I have just downloaded an article to read re that link.
I practice as an Art Psychotherapist and work with patients that suffer C-PTSD I use arts mediums in sessions to facilitate connections with emotion/un process affect. It is believed the creative arts helps process information from a sensory based angle (bottom up processing) then potentially helps the forming of connections (top down processing) thereby making sense of their experience. This begs the additional question around the potential of reclaimed memory from the repressed memory etc etc. Any other thoughts/articles around this from your perspective...would be greatly welcome. Thank you.
I had a patient who all his life had been fighting against what he felt to be forces trying to hold him down. He suffered from claustrophobia. I got him to ask his sister how things have been when he was an infant. She would come home from school at lunch and The mother would still be asleep in the dark and stinky bedroom and the baby would be awake lying silently and still in the crib and then she noticed the straps holding him down. He had no memory whatever of this. There have been zero process. But his whole world was trying to strap him down. Beginning to put all of this into words or into drawings or into paintings Is gradually beginning to process the unprocessed. But I don’t see any rule for “memories” here. Read Joseph Fernando’s works on trauma. There is a new book just out or about to come out.
Thank you for sharing this. An Interesting insight, and thank you for the reading reference.
Warmest regards
Very interesting and germane subject. Compartmentalization, dissociation, DP/DR can become so intense as to resemble separate "stranger" entities, but seems to me that is exceedingly rare ... and the "popularity" of DID is mostly BS. Agree with Carveth that we all are doing some or much of this, and it's pretty much a standard part of the human condition, often scarily so.
Yes, thanks
absolutely saving me before my mock exam!
Just watched your video on narcissism. Obviously you hate us as much as we hate ourselves. We made bad choices from the start. We turned our rage inwards. It is a sin I agree. What should we have done instead?
We keep avoiding the guilt. What do you suggest?
We chose to escape from reality and attack life. And now we are too busy trying to avoid suicide. What is your contempt about? These are genuine questions. Hope I won't be ghosted.
Listen, don’t you realize I am a narcissist to? I became one in reaction to my mothers, alcoholism and an early hospitalization. I’ve struggled with it all my life. Why do you think I right so much about guilt? But you ask what’s the solution? For me it was re-finding Jesus Christ. I grew up in the Anglican church. Lost it all at puberty. Got it back in my 40s. I guess you would say I am a secular Christian, I believe, and I do not believe. Jesus came to attack religion, and the super ego in favour of conscience.
The narcissist, you hear me marking in my videos is me.
Mocking
@@doncarveth I see, thank you, but you should say it. So you also struggle with fear of being evil Iguess. You have contempt for yourself because you complied (or submiited yor masochistic self as xou say) to be accepted by your parents.You wished you could have declared your indépendance instead or or easy going taken life as a play been able to charm yor parents to get your needs met. I guess. I am relieved but I am not doing well. I think it's time to be kind with ourselves. I think the starting point eas a paranoic. At tomes of fear we elect tyrants temperament.
Sorry for types. Late here. Bye
I was curious about how Chat GBT would answer the question "did Freud know about the novela?" Here's what I got.
Yes, Sigmund Freud was aware of Robert Louis Stevenson's novella "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". It is believed that Freud was influenced by the duality of human nature depicted in the novel and incorporated the concept of the "dual self" into his psychoanalytic theories.
In the novella, the protagonist Dr. Jekyll transforms into the evil Mr. Hyde, representing the dichotomy between good and evil in human nature. This idea of a dual self, where individuals have both good and bad impulses, is similar to Freud's concept of the id, ego, and superego, where the id represents primitive and instinctual desires, the ego represents rational and logical decision-making, and the superego represents moral and ethical values.
It is worth noting, however, that while "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" may have influenced Freud, the idea of a dual self has a long history in Western thought, dating back to ancient Greek philosophy. Creepy but interesting.
Thank you very much for this.
@@doncarveth Your welcome.
I am wondering how these rapidly developing AI's will be integrated into the analytic framework?
Also I'd love to hear critique of Dr Strange love within the analytic construct.
Thanks again.
He hides Hyde. Isn't Hyde shadow?
A Jungian would say so, yes
@@doncarveth Professor Carveth, i know you already did a fantastic lecture on Lacan which is more than enlightening, but i was wondering what your thoughts are on Lacans concept of the way a subject is structured (i.e. Neurotic, Psychotic, Pervers). As a layman it is Impossible for me to judge the credibility of lacans claims, but considering how there are different ways of conceptualizing personality in Psychoanalysis, Lacans concept of these strict unchangeable structures seems to be rather unpopular, but i could be totally wrong here.
I suppose as somewhat of a kleinian (correct me if i'm wrong) you prefer to stick to the two positions and maybe there is no need for further conceptualization of personality, or is there? But then again, it seems like Otto Kernberg for example, has a quite complex idea of personality, but in a somewhat different way than lacan, right?
But on the other hand Lacans concept of the genesis of psychosis seems to be the most sophisticated way of thinking about it.
Anyway, your work is much appreciated and i'm glad to see you are still active, Professor, i hope you are doing well. Your channel truly is a treassure.
@@VigiliusHaufniensis I find Laban’s categories too rigid. I believe there is overlap. I likeKernberg much better but his categorization seems a bit overelaborated at rimes. We do need more than Klein’s PS/D. But it is easy for intellectual types to become obsessed with all this categorization as opposed to sitting “without memory or desire“ with each uniquely individual patient.
@@doncarveth I seem to remember from one or more of your lectures that you proposed/suggested a third position, using Klein as the starting point. Wasn't it about conscience? Or am I off track here and I confuse starting structures and evolved personality traits?
@@fagica you are not wrong, but I intended in this video to address the issue of repression versus dissociation. It would be a very different lecture if I had wanted to address the issue of conscience. A colleague of mine is interested in that very issue.
Incredible insight! An unexpected gem 💎
Thanks
Hello Don, I’ve been avidly watching your videos since 2017. One thing I haven’t heard you talk about much is the pace of introjection in psychoanalysis. Is there much to say about it?
Complicated. Not sure what you are getting at by the “pace” of introspection. I certainly believe that a cure by introjection is far from a genuine cure.
Sorry Don, typo. I meant the place of introjection. I’m interested in how much of culture we learn via introjection. If all the nasty stuff from society is expressed in the persecutory voice of the superego don’t we introject the voice of the superego from outside us to then regurgitate to attack ourselves or others?
@@davidclarke9215 but remember, the core of the super ego is end aggression turned against the self. Internalized, societal ideology and norms is the second layer.
Good stuff
Thanks