Shogun Showdown: Shogun 1980 Vs. Shogun 2024: Blackthorne Draws Map Of The World: Which Is Better?
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- Опубліковано 19 бер 2024
- Shogun Showdown: Shogun 1980 Vs. Shogun 2024: Blackthorne 1980 Vs. Blackthorn 2024 - Map Of The World Scene - Which Is Better? Vote In Comments. Shogun 1980 was Directed by Jerry London; Produced and Screenwritten by Eric Bercovici. Shogun 2024 was made by Walt Disney Studios+, Created and Screenwritten by Rachel Kondo and Justin Marks. Which do you like better? Both versions have their positives and negatives. Each is written from a different perspective, focussing on different aspects of the novel, Shogun. Tanoshimu!
Note: Shogun 1980 is up first, followed by Shogun 2024, and a comparison of the two. Both versions have their different viewpoints, and both have positives and negatives. Tanoshimu!
Shogun Note: The Shogun Channel is not monetized. If you would like to buy myself and Lord Toranaga a cup of Japanese Coffee, it is greatly appreciated. My Paypal.com is: trkgriffin@gmail.com. One dollar certainly goes a long way, if you spend it wisely. Sorry, but we do not read emails at that address. God bless you. Thank you so very much. Domo Arigatogozaimashita!
Note: If you liked this Shogun Showdown, you will also like: Shogun Showdown: "Unless You Win" Vs. "Unless I Win". - • Shogun Showdown: Shogu...
Note: You may also like Shogun Showdown: Opening Theme Vs. Opening Theme - • Shogun Showdown: Shogu...
Note: You may also like Shogun Showdown: 1980 Trailer Vs. 2024 Trailer - • Shogun Showdown: Shogu...
Note: You may also like Shogun Showdown: Mariko And Blackthorne's Introductions And Reactions - • Shogun Showdown: Shogu...
Note: You may also like Shogun Showdown: The Beheading Scene - Warning: Graphic Content - • Shogun Showdown: Shogu...
Shogun, The Millions-Of-Copies Sold Novel, was written by James Clavell. The Masterpiece 1980 Television Miniseries was Produced by NBC and Paramount Studios, Directed by Jerry London, Screenplay by Eric Bercovici, Director Of Photography Andrew Laszlo A.S.C., Production Executive Frank Cardea, with Production Designer Joseph R. Jennings. Shogun starred: Richard Chamberlain (as Pilot-Major John “Anjin-San” Blackthorne), Toshiro Mifune (as Lord Yoshi Toranaga; Lord Of The Kwanto; Lord Of The Eight Provinces; Chief General Of The Armies Of The East; Head Of The Clan Of Yoshi; President Of The Council Of Regents; Shogun), Yoko Shimada (as The Lady Toda Buntaro Mariko), Frankie Sakai (as Izu Daimyo, Lord Kashigi Yabu), Alan Badel (as Chief Jesuit Priest, The Father Visitor Dell’Aqua), Michael Hordern (as Christian Franciscan Monk, Friar Domingo), Damien Thomas (as Jesuit Priest, Father Martin Alvito), John Rhys-Davies (as Portuguese “Black Ship” Pilot Vasco Rodrigues), Vladek Sheybal (as Portuguese “Black Ship” Captain Ferriera; Governor Of Macao; Chief Officer Of Portugal In Asia), George Innes (as Erasmus Ship Mate Johann Vinck), Leon Lissek (as Portuguese Jesuit Priest, Father Sebastio), Yuki Meguro (as Chief Samurai Warrior, Kashigi Omi), Hideo Takamatsu (as Lord Toda Buntaro), Hiromi Senno (as Consort The Lady Usagi Fujiko), and Nobuo Kaneko (as General Lord Ishido Kazunari; Chief General Of The Armies Of The West; Commander Of The Heir’s Bodyguard; Conqueror Of Korea; Inspector General Of All The Late Taiko’s Armies; Head Of The Clan Of Ishido; President Of The Council Of Regents; Master Of Osaka Castle). Shogun Film Editors were: James T. Heckert, Bill Luciano, Donald R. Rode, Benjamin A. Weissman, and Jerry Young. Many people were involved in the making of this classic masterpiece. There was an A-List Cast, an A-List Director, an A-List Musical Score from Maurice Jarre, and A-List production quality with amazing sets and intricate costumes, detailed for that time era. Narration by the famous and powerful voice of Orson Welles.
(Note: Video scenes must be short in order to meet UA-cam’s Copyright Requirements. If video scenes are beyond 5 minutes, UA-cam rejects them for copyright infringement reasons. Thank you for your understanding. Enjoy The Shogun Channel.)
ショーグン 1980 対ショーグン 2024 の戦いのこのビデオを楽しんでいただけたことを心から願っています。これが虎長卿から世界中の侍たちへの秘密のメッセージです。あなたの国では、人類を奴隷にするデジタルIDと中央銀行デジタル通貨を拒否してください。」男性諸君、強くあれ。彼らはあなたが弱くて女性的であることを望んでいます、だから男性も強くなってください。神の完全な武具を身に着けてください。手遅れになる前に、永遠の救いのために、今日主イエス・キリストとともに救われてください。今日は皆さんに神のご加護がありますように。アーメン。
The 80's version feels like a Japanese girl is bringing her white boyfriend to meet her father at luncheon and having a friendly discussion while 24's feel like everyone is tensed up about no laughing matter discussion
Well. Except for that one a-hole whole cracked a joke and immediately got told to stfu 😅😂
That's an oversimplification because of what happens after.
@@ellebleisch6853the original version was more vibrant and shows Blackthorn's immersion into Japanese culture.
It's a good idea to lose your temper in public. For a story of sharing the world that is not urgent. It's not very Japanese.
The Japanese were actually quite nice to him (beside ribbing him blind) so in some way the original version is actually a bit more accurate
I like both versions. It seems to me that old version gives much more clear and detailed informations from Anjin (almost like school like) and scene has more private and friendly atmosphere, so you dont feel such a big tension. New version is shorter, faster and it's full of tension and suspense. I really like the way they did it, including camera and tempo. It is very different, but I love it. Only little thing ... new Toranaga made a just tiny smile, after Blackthorn said "Unless I win.", while Toshiro exploded in wild laugh. I miss that little bit in new version. Hiro's Toranga is much more calm and controled.
That's because they completely change to subjects of the conversation: In the miniseries (and the book) the conversation was about Holland rebelling against Spain; Toranaga says it's never Ok to rebel against your lawful lord...blackthore say's "unless you win" Toranaga likes this answer because he (Toranaga) is planning his own rebellion.
In the new series the conversation is just Blackthorne boasting about his plans to fight the portuguese
I’ll read the book! I watched old tv series years ago and loved it. New one is also great, currently best tv show you can find.
Yes, I noticed that change and I was very curious why they did it. Seems to me that in new version they left aside all "western plots", let them on background and simplify them them as much as it was possible, because they want to focus mainly on japanese plots. Btw For long years I was and still I am big fan of Toshiro Mifune. I have seen almost all his movies including japanese version of Cyrano. :-) He was so great. For years I say that if there is ONE actor who can remake his roles , that's Hiroyuki Sanada. I like them both. But it seems to me that Hiro takes his Toranaga much more serious. I miss little bit of that funny sense which Toshiro Mifune had even in most serious moments. And I know that Hiro has good timing for comedy, so I know that he has capacity for this, but its too little of that in new Shogun. I can forgive, because I like both version of Toranaga and both actors, but I will never forgive if they dont make "dance scene" :-). I want to compare Mifune and Sanada dance. 😀 Also I am so thankful for this page. In my country was Shongun cut into "movie" and some years later there was longer version in TV, but still at least half of show was cut out. Because your page, I can see original show from very new perspective and see scenes which are new to me. :-) @@forddon
❤ both versions and both are a little different from each other. I fell in love with Shogun in the 1980 version , and yes it was much more from Blackthorns view and the current version is much more from the Japanese version. I appreciate the newer version for its subtitles so I understand what everyone is saying
@@forddon I didn't realize they changed this part either as I generally find the new 2024 version boring and fast forward through each episode.
Damn, like the attempted seppuku, this was another significant scene that the new version also messes up.
The 2024 emphasis on "interpretation/translation" and how Mariko-sama chooses to report Blackthorne words and his meaning to Toranaga-sama is unparalleled. They really put the translation as a central part of the story and its unique and greatly done.
1980 warm colours, happy vibes, 2024 dark vibes like from horror movie.
Hai, WorkingWithTheLight-San, That is exactly what I thought. So far, in 5 Episodes of Disney+ FX Hulu Shogun 2024, I have not seen one sunny day, in what is supposed to be "The Land Of The Rising Sun", according to the Japanese Flag. Excellent Comment. Arigatogozaimashita. 👍🌅
imagine they are under 'Warring States period' and the theme is "happy vibes" that's a complete disconnect from reality!
LOL Japan is not a tropical country! the weather should not be sunny! and if you really watched the new series, there's a sunrise scene there with Toronaga and Yabushige.the 1980 series is complete disconnect from reality@@theshogunchannel
@@Rainierversethe 2024 series was filmed in Canada, in British Columbia, known for it’s endless rainy days so it would make sense that it’s always cloudy and rainy.
The 1980s series was actually filmed in Japan, so yes, this is what Japan actually looks like.
It reflects the state of the world in 1980 vs 2024.
What i like about the new show is the importance of Mariko as a translator. In the old show, as shown in this scene. Toranaga kinda just sits there and listens to Blackthorn speak like he actually understands what he is saying just like we in the audience making it just an exposition dump. The new show however puts a HUGE enfasis on the importance of the translator and it is Marikos revelation about catholisism and her strugle to cope with it that give this particular scene such tension.
That's ahistorical though.
@@korosuke1788What is?
@@korosuke1788
Does that mean Mariko speaks English? This drama was made with an English-speaking audience in mind, so the characters only speak English. However, in actual historical fact, such exchanges did occur. I think it was Portuguese, not English.
😮
Huh? Toshiro Mifune could not speak English to any practical extent. He would have only known what Chamberlain was saying from having read the script. Hiroyuki Sanada, by contrast, speaks English very well.
The role of Mariko as the translator and Catholic convert was given equal importance in both series.
Did you watch the same shows I did? Because that comment makes no sense.
ティーンエイジャーの時に両親と将軍を観た。現代の日本語を使っていたり日本の歴史には存在しない偽物が目立ち、”こりゃダメだ” って言いながら観た記憶。今回の将軍は戦国時代の時代考証や言葉遣いの正しさが素晴らしい。
When I was a teenager, I watched 'Shogun' with my parents. I remember watching it while saying, 'This is no good,' because it used modern Japanese and featured obvious fabrications not present in Japanese history. This time, 'Shogun' excels in its accurate portrayal of the Sengoku period and proper language usage.
You say that, but both series also used a modern English instead of a 1600s English which would essentially be Shakespearan.. and it should of course, really be in a 1600's Portuguese. All of that together is a hard sell to the audience, even in 2024.
Excellent comments, KW-San. Many times I think AI ChatGPT is coming up with these comments, and I do not even think they are real. Shogun 1980 was immensely popular in Japan, and it made Richard Chamberlain as a Super Hero in Japan. Portuguese is what should have been spoke to be "Authentic" and Shogun should have been written in Portuguese. Of course, it was an American Made Novel, and an American Made NBC/Paramount Production. It was Brilliant, but I think that some of these other comments are AI. Domo for your comments. Arigatogozaimashita.
They aren’t actually speaking English. They’re speaking Portuguese. Mariko only speaks Japanese and Portuguese.
And, Mariko speaks Latin as well. Arigato. @@dstarling61
There is a story that Mifune corrected the modern Japanese to 16th century vernacular.
In Shogun 2024 it was more than clear to me, that Toranaga took "unless I win" as a secretly funny joke as he is plotting to do the same. In the whole series the theme of a secret heart just for yourself is omnipresent and very important to Toranaga who hides his true intentions even in front of his closest ones. So it would be really out of his character to break laughing in front of an untrustworthy (at that time) foreigner and his soldiers (some of who he knows are playing both sides). Also Mariko's translations are more useful in the new version, as it adds more layers of meaning to the spoken words. The 80's version is cute, romantic and easy going. The new one shows that fight for power is a serious business.
I took his little smile as acknowledgment of the warriors never say die attitude. A belief in winning against the odd and the haughty underdog attitude (against all odd) which complimented what you pointed out…(I have a job to do).
In the book its actually his character to laugh and be quite unserious at times when he should be serious, which confuses his enemies just as much.
@@ElZilchoYo Exactly! The new version was too rigid.
@@warrennicholsony.fernando4513 but he does do that, just not in this scene, which in my opinion is handled better.
The „unless I win“ line is completely different in the book. In the book Blackthorne is explaining about the Netherlands rising up against Spain and winning their independence. Toranaga replies that it’s absolutely forbidden to rise up against your liege lord, to which Blackthorne replies: „unless you win“. This makes Toranaga laugh out loud.
I don’t understand why they changed this in the new series. It’s one of the most powerful scenes in the story.
I do like a lot the warm in 1980 original...but in the 2024 you get to see the other "half " of the book a little bit more...Great video!! Orson Welles was awesome in his narration also!
I like 2024❣I'm Japanese, and each word used in the dialogue is carefully chosen. You can feel the tension in the surprised conversations of military commanders at the time. The map is also easy to understand. The set and the subordinates around you are also realistic.
Sorry for the confusion. I agree with your comments. Arigato.
@@theshogunchannel It's a rude thing to say just because it doesn't match your opinion. This account has just been created, but it is a sub-account created to collect impressions of videos, impressions of old dramas and movies, and information from around the world.
And I'm Japanese. I saw "The Shogun" starring Yoko Shimada twice in the 1980s.
I'm glad that Americans are enjoying Japanese-themed works with subtitles, but shouldn't Japanese people be allowed to comment on them?
Up until now, most Japanese-themed movies made by the United States have been viewed as ``really weird'' by Japanese people. Overall, 70% of the works have incorrect images of Japan. However, 90% of this time's "Shogun" represented the true Japan, and I think it was because of Mr. Sanada's efforts and the seriousness of the staff. Many Japanese people feel the same way. However, it's a little too cruel. It's not that cruel. It's not even boiled in a pot. However, it was probably a necessary scene to have an impact on Western viewers. The story of the Jesuits is true.
Yoko Shimada was a beautiful actress, and at the time she was popular and one of Japan's leading actresses. From the looks of it, she suited the role, but her acting was poor.
To Japanese people, Anna Sawai looks like a Japanese American. But her acting is great. The real strength and way of life of Garasha Hosokawa is expressed in her acting.
I don't know what you didn't like about my comment, but I guess it means that a lot of the people who appreciated my comment were Japanese.
Why does it suddenly have to be called GPT or bot?
I didn't write it in a rough manner. I'm sorry. Please rest assured that I will no longer comment on this channel. However, as a Japanese person's impressions, I would be happy if this was left as is.
☺🙏
@@user-puyopuyo7 To this Westerner, these comments do not seem likely to be the product of a bot, although Chat GPT has gotten quite sophisticated, so I guess it's possible for all of our comments.
About Sawai, she does appear to have had one White parent. If so, I wondered if it would be irritating for Japanese people. I confess it takes me out of the story a little, although I think her line delivery, acting is skillful. Also, I would have a problem if a mixed race actress were chosen above a Japanese actress in order to have a more global appeal as that strikes me as somewhat racist.
Apologies to you. I do understand the 2 Shoguns cover different aspects of the same novel. Arigato. @@user-puyopuyo7
I just love that I've done enough research and have enough interest to recognize the major players. This time period and the Sengoku Era has always captivated my love for the nation and gives me hope for my own.
I really love the old Shogun, but I feel like both versions of story have their merits. The old one is definitely warmer and slower, almost like a dream, whereas the new one is much more suspenseful and rapid.
Honestly I love that, they both excel in their own way
The 1980 version spent more time in the first half of the novel, but later condensed a bit the second half. And even with the changes, stayed more true to the novel, which is essentially a fictional story that James Clavell wrote loosely based on historical character and historical events.
The 2024 version is trying to play a tug of war between the novel, historical accuracy and trying to keep everything realistic.
To me, if they wanted to stay true to history and realism, they should've made the a historical movie based in William Adams' life instead of basing it on Shogun.
Hai, AlwinDigital-San. Highly Excellent Comments. I agree 100%. Arigatogozaimashita. @@ALwinDigital 👍
@@ALwinDigitaltienes toda la razón ,la versión de 1980 es más fiel a la novela
The lack of subtitles really connects one to the foreigner experience and is an interesting choice. It is a unique experience for some people and incredibly important to the story. I really like it.
Note that in the 80s version, there are no subtitles even when Blackthorne is speaking Japanese. When I first watched that series, part of the experience was learning those words and phrases along with him.
I like both versions and cannot tell which is better. I liked the colour tone of the 1980 version and the actors and their performances, especially Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune. However, watching the show as a native Japanese, Japan depicted in the 1980 show didn't look like my country, and I sometimes felt uncomfortable. That’s probably why Hiroyuki Sanada focused on authenticity. Characters in the 2024 version look like real people in the 16th to early 17th century, and I like Sanada’s performance. Both shows are great in their own right.
Retraction: Apologies to you. I agree with your opinion. Arigato.
So, I must tell my story to convince you that I really exist.
"Doctor Kildare" aired in my area of Japan from 1964 and captivated 5-year-old me. I have liked Richard Chamberlain since then. About a decade later, I unexpectedly watched him in "The Slipper and the Rose" and was so glad. Back then, a teenage girl living in Japan's rural area surrounded by mountains didn't know how to find his shows.
It became the age of the internet, and I found the 1980 version and liked it. The show is undoubtedly great entertainment. It's true that some parts of the show made me uncomfortable, but I know it wasn't their fault. Americans in the 1970s and 1980s didn't know enough about Japan, just like a country girl had limited knowledge about Richard Chamberlain. The show is the best of its time.
I like both the 1980 and 2024 shows. I can tell what part of which one "I like more", but I cannot tell which is "better". I don't want to. Different eras, different budgets, different knowledge, different concepts, etc. You can enjoy both shows as they are. The question "Which is better?" makes you upset.
Hai, Jedi-San, but I have been Moderator for Very Popular Channels in ChatRooms, and when people make new accounts immediately and start commenting, many times they are Trolls, Agents, or AIChatbots: I have direct experience with them. Had you been a Moderator for years, you would have come to the same conclusion. Trolls and Agents abound in Chatrooms and in Comments Sections. It is not faulty logic: It is experiential wisdom. @@jedi423
I started commenting because you chose the wrong scene. I implied the importance of authenticity and claimed both shows are great. But you didn't seem to understand what I was implying.
The scene was wrong because they chose an outdoor tea ceremony as the setting. Sado (tea ceremony) is a part of samurai culture, and in the Sengoku era, only Warlords and some wealthy merchants practised it. It was an expensive hobby and a means of socialization, and also a way of staying calm. During the Sengoku era, Samurai, constantly facing death, needed the tea ceremony to calm their minds.
So, Toranaga should host this tea ceremony, calmly waiting for his guests at the centre of the carpet. His expensive tea utensils are neatly placed near him. Then, he should serve tea and start a conversation. And there should be no kids. That's what should happen if you choose a tea ceremony as the setting.
Besides, Mariko said, "I will explain everything to Lord Toranaga later." How could she be so rude to her master? And Toranaga didn't stop their conversation!
For people who have some knowledge about authentic samurai, Toranaga in this scene doesn't look like a well-educated daimyo. He doesn't make tea, and he doesn't take control of the conversation. They at least shouldn't have chosen a tea ceremony setting.
I thought, at first, your lack of knowledge was because you belong to my generation. We didn't know each other's culture in the 1970s and 80s. So I wanted to help you. But I was wrong.
Goodbye.
Arigato for your assessment. Very nice. Arigatogozaimashita. @@user-hf9pl2nt6t
1980年のは日本人からするとこのシーンだけでも全くリアルじゃないから、すごくフィクションな感じがするし、いわゆる海外の人がイメージする日本の歴史ファンタジーって感じがする。
1. まだ完全に信用したわけでもない外国人を殿に手が届くような位置に座らせる。
2.安針と女性との距離が近すぎる。
3.殿を放っておいて、安針とまりこが英語で会話しつづける。
この3点だけで、無礼者と言われて追い出されるか、二度と殿には会えないのが普通。
2024年版は、上の3点をすべてクリアしているし、あと日本がポルトガルの植民地として扱われていると安針が言った時の日本人キャストの緊張感がリアル。
もしこれが現実ならそれを言った時点で、国家転覆罪で死罪になる可能性が高いけど、これはフィクションドラマだし、あり得ない設定があるのも理解してます。
その上で2024年版はフィクションに見せない工夫が本当に沢山あって、日本人でも楽しめるドラマになっていると思います。真田さん本当にありがとう🙏
For Japanese people, 1980 is not realistic at all, so even this scene feels very fictional.
There are points
1. Making a foreigner (Anjin) who is not yet completely trusted sit in a position where he can reach the lord.
2. The distance between Anjin and women soooo close.
3. Anjin and Mariko continue to talk in English, ignoring the lord. (The lord must to be prioritize anytime)
These 3 points would normally get them called rude and kicked out here, or Anjin would never see the lord again.
The 2024 version cleared those points, and the tension of the Japanese cast when Anjin said that Japan is classified as a Portuguese colony is realistic.
If you are in real, the moment he said that, he would likely be sentenced to death for subversion of state power, but I understand that this is a fictional drama and that there are some impossible settings.
I recommend 2024 version, because it has many ingenious ways to not make it seem like fiction, and I think it is a drama that even Japanese people can enjoy.
Thank you Sanada San!
(Using Google Translate )
三船は大好きな俳優ではあるけど
あまりにも酷くて途中で見ていられなくなりました
その３点に＋まりこがセリフを言う時の仕草が過去のは
いかにも西洋風に頭や表情が動きすぎるのが正されていて、そこも好感度高いです
特に１はラストサムライでも気になってた点ですわー
帯剣させたまま明治天皇の御前とか…ありえんすぎる…って。
Just to let you know, many Japanese people have made comments that they prefer Shogun 1980, and that it is more Japanese to them: Also, it is filmed in Japan, whereas, Shogun 2024 was filmed in Vancouver Island, Canada, and they flew out all the Japanese to Canada. Arigato Gozaimashita.
@@theshogunchannel I've been reading the comments to this video for a while now to get the time flowing during a train ride. Not a single one written in Japanese or even claiming to be from a Japanese person so far preferred 1980's _Shōgun._ Every single comment written in hiragana and kanji has in fact been _very_ critical of the 1980 version and praised the 2024 remake (as opposed to the American boomer audience!). So far the tally sits at 6:0.
@@mateuszjokiel2813 Many Japanese people have spoken up, saying that they prefer Shogun 1980 over Shogun 2024. Look at the other 338 videos I have posted, and you will see the majority of Japanese prefer the Japanese landscape of Shogun 1980 and not the Canadian B.C. landscape; they also prefer Japanese instruments being used in the soundtrack and they prefer Toshiro Mifune, Yoko Shimada, John Rhys-Davies, and Richard Chamberlain. Check out our other videos, and you will see.
People griping about Anna Sawai’s lack of a Japanese accent but I’ve always been put off by Richard Chamberlain’s lack of an English accent.
An "English accent" from 1600 would sound like a cartoon pirate.
Aye
Keep in mind that Blackthorne and Mariko are actually communicating in Portuguese (and in the book, sometimes in Latin as well) so I can certainly understand why the producers might decided rendering a Portuguese-English accent might be a bridge too far for the sake of realism.😉
Rubbish, he hardly has any taint in it.
Actually, a 1600 English accent may sound close to what Richard chamberlain is doing.
actually like that the old version drawed japan in the western side of the map, funny little detail no westerner would do today.
Both are great, but I think the 2024 version is much more to the point and concise, does a better job of feeling like a show and not a documentary.
I think it's also in part due to how cinematography has changed over the years. I'm sure people look back at this stuff when it's 40 years old and feel similarly.
But visually it's horrible, and the acting is sub-par, with the exception of a few like Hiroyuka Sanada.
The old Yabu was bestest. His mischevious and cunning face is second to none.
Actor Frankie Sakai, who played Lord Yabu in the 1980s Shogun, was known for his comedy performances. Japanese in the U.S. were startled to see him in a serious dramatic role.
Absolutely. I love Tadanobu as an actor, but he choses to play Yabu as a halfwit who doesn't even know how to lie in a satisfactorily way. The old Yabu was better, but that is true for a lot of other characters as well. Mariko of the old series was a real dream, Toranaga was the real Toranaga from the novel instead of this new gloomy one whose lines are badly written. Omi of the old series was a very interesting character, with his intense look and sharp face. Unfortunately, te new series' Omi is so uninteresting as to not even remember his face; Hiromatsu is good in both series though, and his role is even better in the new series. All the portuguese in the old series are much much better than in the new series, every single one of them, the village priest, Rodrigo, Alvito, father Del Acqua and the Captain... The list goes on and on.
And the old Omi (Yuki Meguro) was bestes ❤
@@deem7478 Well.. thats just like "Pat Morita" in "the Karate Kid". He was a comedian, and was not taken seriously by the studio heads when he auditioned.
@@Ainulindala I agree. The actors chosen to play their roles in the original version were a lot better in terms of acting and presence so we remember their faces. Well, the original version was also more faithful to the book since Clavell was part of the writing process.
The 80s version has an optimistic feel about it, whereas 24’s is more sinister, a sense of foreboding to it. 80s Mariko was so sweet, 24’s Mariko is…’sexy’. I believe Mifune had an affair and child with 80s Mariko! Great comparison, thank you.
You mean he "pillowed" with Mariko.
@@getlost3346 Pillowed her cerebrum out, yes!
The music/sound designer is Atticus Ross, who's done a lot of work with Trent Reznor.
He's done well making the dark ominous foreboding feel in these scenes.
@@getlost3346”pirrowed”… 😂
according to wiki he had a daughter no with Mariko's actress, but the one who played Kiku in that adaptation.
i'm a graduate of design so perhaps if may, i want to comment from my perspective personally, i've seen comments regarding how the 80s version is all sunny and vibrant compared to the dark and muted 2024 version
we need to take into consideration that in the 1980s film technology especially digital filters are not available yet in the level we have today, we have so much more tools at our disposal to convey what emotions we want to put into the film we make, also to consider that during the era, analog film rolls are the tools they used and vibrant film rolls conveys the quality however on the other hand, the stylistic and artistic choices of the vibrant moods are also a factor that appeals to the audience of the era.
as for my personal opinion, both are great works but it shows to me the stylistic features of each era, where i find the 80s version prefer simpler story telling and clarity thus some comments says "school like" while the 2024 version conveys more on the emotional depth and burden of the scene, i especially like the difference where in 80s version toranaga, despite i feel how he is troubled by the information regardless, basically just "accept" whatever information conveyed to him and wakarimashita it, while i do believe and feels all the actors are very much into their role and execute the performance with commitment and seriousness, the emotion i capture is still regardless felt more "theatrical"
while in 2024 version as mariko translate each information toranaga and the rest of his entourage gasps in disbelief upon digesting the information, and mariko herself was shown to be more in disbelief emotionally than in 80s version, this to me also stylistic and artistic choices of today's audience where we indulge more on film's story telling where we are fed bits and pieces and then left for us to piece and connects those together ourselves to figure the bigger picture of the story, 80s version shows how the burden of this scene but in a more straightforward "acting" manner while the 2024 for me conveys a more natural reaction, i would expect myself to have if i am part of toranaga's entourage or to the fact that upon hearing this, toranaga display subtle but contemplative disbelief and complex layers of characters where i felt he is prepared to counter scheme this information he just found
This for me shows how methodical acting and cinematography evolved to be more naturalistic in protrayal of characters
ps: to clarify what i meant, consider that if you are born from the 80s era then you would see how past the 2000s era, most film adopt a story telling that is more "active" to the viewers and audience, where filmmakers tend to engage the audience to connects the dots themselves and inadvertently participate in the storytelling of the film as the film rolls, this in return creates a more immersive, emotional and personal experience compared to the 80s or 70s original star wars story telling or other films of the era, ths however does not diminished the artistic value of the old movies or especially the capabilities of the filmmakers, it is simply signifying the stylistic choices of each era just like clothigns does every decades
Well said
I found the 1st version more thought provoking more nuanced less force feeding sentiment through music and mist. Turning Mariko into a samurai killing warrior woman and revealing obvious basic faces/emotions is force feeding the audience the already connected dots. This reminds me of a convergence of video games to movies reversed into movies following video game visuals.
What do you think about the 2 versions of the "Not if I win" scene?
@@brianpeck4035 there are 2 parts of your opinion that i can break down into technical aspect of cinematography, the first are the choices of musics and mist, again, that is the visuals and stylistic choices the producer and director wants to convey, and as i mentioned these choices are sometimes, like fashion, dictated by what the general audience of the era prefers, and just like fashion, it is not one size fits all that is why i encourage in my comment to look at more broader view of this works and not judge it merely from a single aspect of choices chosen by the director.
the character of mariko surely is adapted to convey a more appropriate female character of our current era, that is all i can say regarding this, but then again, i don't know yet, i think, why they choose to do so, given the super depth of detail down to how the 2024 version troops even stand in the correct fighting position, i am sure there are reasonings for them to adapt the character of Mariko into this kind you are mentioning, either for appropriation of the current trends, to relate mariko to the audience of today, or for storytelling purposes. from my point of view, Mariko is presented with a lot of burden and resentment and the fact the character does not even attempt to hide it, is another plus, you don't need to connect the dots on that matter but i am yet to connect the dots of WHY, which started to be explained in the current episode as i wrote this.
for the not unless i win part, i would like to provide a disclaimer that while i see a lot of the original 1980s scenes i do not watch the entire movie and not the unless i win part, i watched how they did battles and other scenes mostly also from this channel, so strictly speaking from this video and from 2024's unless i win scene, for me, logical point of view of torinaga would fits IMO for him to ask, after explaining all this, and figure out he ain't daisy with the portuguese monks, to ask WTF are you and WTF you want.. in my eye this scene finally tells me the clue what is the character's ambition in the film or at least what he portrays up to this episode and probably the film maker want to make this fact into a dedicated episode or arc in the future episodes as key parts of the story
You should watch the entire Shogun 1980. Watching only the individual scenes does not give you the broad scope that the entire 9-Hour Miniseries Presentation brings. @@archingelus
@@theshogunchannel that is exactly why i want to be specific onto how i feel about the film from the technical aspects and how i feel when i see the scene and what is being portrayed and not as a whole works, which is why i am quiye specific on what i commented especially heavy on how i reacted to the stylistic and artisitic choices of each films and not commenting them as a whole intepretation of the same story of the life of williams adam, i sure do hope this part is also being considered provided some comments here also leans to what i feel the cinematography aspects of the film on its own as a work of arts, in my studies on filmmaking and videography even every scene i am assigned to make has to be detailed down to what and why a character script is made that way and that is what i am reacting to in my particular comment
and yes i am currently watching both but not yet finished, so far i do found the storytelling is much more intriguing from the 2024 adaptation which is kind of expected compared to the more straightforward, no frill way of story telling of the films of the era like other movies i watched from similiar years 😊
but as the clip you presented toshiro mifune does have the genuine language barrier look which is kind of a plus on its own as i understand he is genuinely not fluent in english
I love both versions ❤ wonderful series.
great shows both of them ,1980 shogun had a big impact in television worldwide back then and i remember it from the first episode ,it was my favorite show.2024 shogun is also a great show that will also most people love.
6:11-6:15 is for some reason, my fav part. The collective shift in body movement and surprise was so good. I legit love this scene.
The old version conveys the sense of an amicable conversation in which Blackthorn is imparting information that Toranaga accepts mostly at face value - there's little tension or forboding to the scene, and even when Toranaga hears that Japan has already been "given to" Portugal he doesn't seem particularly upset by the news. It makes for good entertainment but is (to me) unconvincing as a more-or-less accurate portrayal of the actual events behind this story.
Conversely, the new version is full of dark overtones and danger - to the extent that it feels as if Blackthorn is aware that by saying the wrong thing he could undermine his position and put himself in serious danger. Toranaga in the 2024 version comes across as a calculating and untrusting power-broker who is carefully evaluating every word that comes out of Blackthorn's mouth and trying to figure out how the new information impacts his schemes and how he can best use it to his advantage. It feels far more realistic given the historical figures that the actor's characters are based on.
Maybe the scene plays on later but I didn't see 1980 Lord Toranaga get much information as Lady Mariko said she would tell him later. Even the big part about you lie about the Church was kept to herself
I would say that is the Japanese way. You make like everything is fine on the surface, but underneath, you would be simmering and planning the next move. We see throughout 1980Shogun that every event and action was part of a stepping stone on the way to Toranaga becoming the eventual Shogun. Like a grand chess match.
Blackthorne's description of the treaties of Tordesillas and Saragossa is not correct. Though it is possible that Blackthorne is being gamely in trying to portray the Portuguese and Spanish in the worst possible light.
both are master made. well done, respect!
Brilliant performances by both Hiroyuki Sanada and Anna Sawai in the 2024 version. The facial expressions, the pauses, the looks in their eyes... absolutely brilliant.
Your analysis is to the point, same conclusions here.
People are really complaining about the English accents of the actors/actresses in both versions, instead of complaining about what they in that case should complain about - that they aren't speaking Portugese, which they are "actually" speaking in these scenes.
The performances are absolutely great all over the board.
Yes for sure, instead they should make sure that it is in Portuguese so precisely 1/10000th viewers will watch when English is the most popular language when considering second languages in the world. What they've done is amalgamate all non-Japanese languages into English to simplify. This show is not about the Portuguese, it is about Japan. They are just a part of the story, just as Blackthorne is just a part of the story. It being spoken in English is irrelevant. It is Japanese or Barbarian Languages being conveyed in English so everyone can watch.
@@CrispyChristieMAC Of course it is, they did the same with the excellent series "Chernobyl", turning the Russian language into just English so it would be more accessable. BUT, people then complaining about stuff like "the accent of the girl who plays Mariko is off-putting, since it is a American-Japanese English accent instead of a real Japanese English accent" is just riddiculious, since that's completely irrelevant because of the fact she isn't even "speaking English" in that scene, it's just for us viewers it's in English.
@@fiskmasadventures Vikings also did it but showed it better to the viewers. In Northumbria when Ragnar was negotiating for peace offering, you could hear in the background the other party's translator talking in Cumbric/Northumbrian while Ragnar was speaking but when the scene changed to when the Northumbrians was speaking they were speaking in english while you could hear in the background Ragnar's party talking in Norse.
A flyspeck of idiots on Twitter are not "people" writ large.
True, in the book Mariko and Blackthorne converse in Portugese and Latin, Blackthorne speaks in Dutch to his own crew. He is of course forced to learn Japanese which he does very quickly under Mariko’s tutelage and the threat that the whole village will be put to death if he doesn’t learn it sufficiently in 6 months.
The Treaty of Tordesillas (1494) is not as ominous as many would have you believe. It was an agreement between Castile (the primary constituent of what would become the Crown of Spain) and Portugal. It's first purpose was both to readdress existing treaties/agreements about who had right to what islands/lands, and prevent a conflict over future discoveries to the west -- Isabella wanted Columbus to keep the discoveries secret from João II of Portugal, but Columbus went to Lisbon and bragged to João's Court there, "I told you so." This led to both countries plotting, thus necessitating a treaty/restructuring of existing norms, bulls, courtesy of the Borgia Pope, Alexander VI.
The key sticking point of Tordesillas was that neither of them could occupy a land already claimed by a Catholic monarch--which, in theory, would include a monarch other than Castile or Portugal, if one existed. Think of this as more of a gold rush scenario, except with (for the moment) two participants, who could stake claims along lines specified by the treaty. These claims were pretensions directed against each other, setting limits on sailing rights. In essence, the world is being divided up, but only in this narrow context. So Tordesillas and Saragossa "dividing the world" turns out to be a big play on words. These are NOT borders in the technical sense -- that came later. This does NOT presuppose conquest. This does NOT mean that whatever treasures and inhabitants existing in those lands were at the mercy of Castile/Portugal. These issues were dealt with separately.
Bear in mind, that very little was known in 1494 about the extent of the new discoveries, which, then, only consisted of some islands -- Brazil was not yet discovered (1500). The biggest problem with Tordesillas was that during the drafting of the treaty, the participants operated under the assumption that the newly discovered lands were in Asia; when Columbus landed on Cuba, he sent a search party as an embassy to locate the "Great Khan."
Article Three of the treaty specified that a joint expedition of existing lines of exploration was to survey together and then ratify the treaty, but this joint voyage never occurred -- likely due to the gradual realization that the new discoveries were not in Asia after all. This essentially obviated the treaty in the eyes of the Catholic powers -- though no declaration was ever made to that effect; it simply faded away as an issue in favor of different ad hoc solutions.
Eventually difficulties arose over where the Spanish prerogatives ended and Portuguese began in the Pacific region; this turned into the Moluccas question. The Treaty of Saragossa was in itself an ad hoc solution to the Moluccas question, it didn't really solve the the prerogatives issue at all. Both countries just claimed whatever they wished to claim without any real sense of rhyme or reason, despite the Saragossa Treaty. This was probably because the people in the Pacific were so far away from Lisbon or Madrid, that they felt that they could get away with anything. Note that the Philippines is west of the Saragossa line, but it was colonized by Spain (1565), not Portugal.
There is a lot of Black Legend involved with these topics. History is not a reductionistic social binary. History is mostly ad hoc and very dynamic. Saragossa, like many events in history, was an ad hoc response to then-existing tension -- not a blueprint for colonialism. Spheres of influence did emerge later between Spain and Portugal, but it was not set in stone in 1494. There were later attempts to revisit the issue of Tordesillas. One such attempt was made by Pope Julius II in the early 1500s. Though it is true that in later years of the 1500s and 1600s, there were Spaniards that said that Tordesillas and the Popes gave them rights. A colloquial understanding emerged out of this, but it was a mistaken historiography. Tordesillas and Saragossa turned into a useful fiction.
When Mariko asked in 1980 "What gives them the right?" and Blackthorne answered, "The Pope gave them the right." This is not actually true. There is a similar problem with the Jesuits' scene, where they discussed that Blackthorne had told Toranaga of the Treaty of Saragossa. Was Clavell ignorant? I don't know. Maybe he overlooked this part of history. In all likelihood, Toranga already knew, and it really wouldn't have mattered to him.
I think they are both excellent. Chamberlain and Mifune are superb and the whole show was quite charming. The scale of the modern version is much greater, visually, and I think that Anna Sawai is devastatingly beautiful. Thank you so much for putting this video together. It really is quite excellent.
The worst part of the new version is Anna Sawai. She comes off as the daughter of one of the producers, and her Western 'feminist' sensibilities and arrogance is grating. Her 'combat skills' are especially stupid. Ugh.
That said, Hiroyuki Sanada is an inspired Toronaga, and Cosmo Jarvis is surprisingly good as a more subdued John Blackthorne. His lack of star power actually helps his narrative fit in and not dominate scenes.
@@DrCruel I prefer all the actors in the original version, though, even though I also like Henry Sanada (sorry I can't remember his entire Japanese name since he was Henry Sanada in the 80s when I was a teen LOL). And I prefer the old version as well even though the new version has its own merits. Maybe because I prefer a film, tv series to be more faithful to the novel as much as possible which the original version was able to do given that James Clavell was part of the writing process.
Can't beat the classics.
My vote is for the 1980s version as it's closer to the original scene in the book but the 2024 scene is also very well done.
Yes but it was dark and claustrophobic. Blackthorne's meeting with Toragana had already happened, this was a second, less official meeting. Toranaga was showing him to Yaemon, the kid. 2024 felt like an interrogation.
Yep, I prefer the original version because it was more faithful to the novel. Well, James Clavell was part of the writing process.
Both are powerfully done! I am very familiar with the earlier one and have not been able to see the new one yet. Perhaps, it will become available on Disc sometime in the future. The acting looks very great in each.
Mifune THE BEST
Yup. Sanada is good, but Mifune is next level.
I'm a huge Sanada fan, but I agree. Still, it's no shame to at least be in the conversation with Mifune, who is one of the all-time greats across all cinema.
三船敏郎もすばらしいが三船敏郎の真骨頂は浪人役や下人。七人の侍の竹千代や用心棒のような人間臭い役がはまる。一方で、真田広之は将軍や大老といった格式高い役が真骨頂。太平記で演じた将軍足利尊氏役は見事だった。虎長役は真田さんの方が合っている。
To act as a Shogun, the one needs a class act. That is Sanada’s specialty.
I prefer old one, one of the big reasons is simply having Mifune around :)
The original scene is a bit more realistic and down to earth imo, whereas the new show is obviously more compelling and dynamic from the cinematography and the heavy leaning on the musical score to set tension- but something true-to-life is lost in the modern romantic obsession with melodrama that I think the original scene captures well.
Interesting take. I personally prefer the new one but now that you've mentioned it, I can certainly see how the old one in some ways feels more like real life. Less dramatic.
２０２４は、日本人として違和感が無い。
I can't say which is better. I prefer the 80s show and nobody can replace Toshiro Mifune.
I think the 80's version is a better representation of the book.
Yes it was because it was making a show based on the book. The new version is trying to mix the book (which is an entirely fictional story loosely using historical characters and events as a base) + historical accuracy + realism.
Also, James Clavell, The Author, was Executive Producer on Shogun 1980, so, he influenced the entire production, to his specifications. @@ALwinDigital
Actually it’s not.
In order to make it fit to the allotted time, they decided to tell the story exclusively from Blackthorn’s point of view. Clavell went back and cut out all the parts that Blackthorn was unaware of. I think it was a brilliant solution as it let the viewers learn along with Blackthorn about Japan.
However, I prefer the new one as it is closer to the book and we get to see more of the Japanese viewpoint.
Yes and no. The 2024 show includes more of the Japanese perspective, which is book accurate.
However, the 2024 show has changed the character of Mariko significantly, and not in a good way. Part of Shogun's charm was that it was a love story as well as an adventure - but Sawai and Jarvis have zero chemistry. Chamberlain and Shimada had amazing chemistry, and IRL she barely spoke English and he was gay - but they are convincing because they're good actors.
This show started strong but it's gotten lost by meandering away from what made the original so successful.
@@RRTNZ Just saw (more like fast forwarded) the latest episode and the actor who portrays Blackthorne still hasn't improved. Still looking as constipated as ever, as described by another commenter, even in the scene with Kiku and Mariko at the "tea house".
I've read the book, and watched both series, and I have to say while the production quality of the 2024 version is, obviously, a lot better, I also feel like they just miss out SO many things from the book. Obviously they couldn't keep it all due to time constraints, but little things like the lack of Holland/rebellion being mentioned for the "Unless you win" part really stand out. In the new version it just seems so much less relevant when compared to the book and 1980's version.
Like seriously, the new one is 'there is no hope... unless I win', which is fine, but the old one is 'rebellion against one's liege lord cannot be just... unless you win', which was just... so much better, and even more relevant to Toronaga.
It really felt like the new version missed a lot of little things regarding Toranaga and Blackthorne's relationship, even the diving scene was more about studying Toranaga's character, than about developing his relationship with Blackthorne. It just feels like they missed so many opportunities, and then Toranaga explains why he saved Blackthorne and its like... because he makes you laugh? You kind of missed all the opportunities to show that in the show though.
I dunno. Now they've announced more seasons, I kinda wish they could have done that earlier and taken their time more, included more content, not rush the whole thing so much. It just feels like a waste for so much to have been left out.
I suspect that the Blackthorne-Toranaga exchange was altered to make it look like Toranaga was not approving of empire.
Yep, I prefer the original version because it was more faithful to the novel that I loved. But then, James Clavell was part of the writing process of the miniseries so there's that. I like the new version for the visuals, the suspense, and the action but the choice of actors in the original version was better for me because their faces were more memorable and their acting was better, in my opinion. And for me, the original version had more heart (and not because of the romance that we saw more of compared to the new version). You just feel how Blackthorne changed from hating Japanese and their culture to finally understanding Japanese culture as he learned about the language and culture. The new Blackthorne was kinda one-dimensional to me and maybe because his role was diminished compared to the original version.
I watched the 80's version as a child with my parents and have watched it again years later they did the best they could at the time the new version is very good but much darker in pallet
I watched both and the new version is much more gritty and great at transmitting the underlying darkness of that period- the European and the Japanese. It is also very close to the underlying darkness in the book as well. If I had to only watch one, I'd stick with the new one. Fortunately, that is not the case.
I agree, though I have to say tha the 1980 version have a better Blackthorne in my opinion.
I prefer the original version, though. The new version has its merits but all the actors in the original version were more memorable to me and played their parts better since the original was more faithful to the novel given that James Clavell was part of the writing process.
Great stuff
三船さんの演技を見れば素敵な気持ちになる。
でも、旧作は日本に見えないな。
新作は全く違和感なく見れる。
I feel the tenor and tone of the conversation is more culturally realistic in how the new version presents this conversation. These two men are still learning about the other. This is their first formal exchange and I believe that Toranaga's control of his passions is more in line with how he would be as a seasoned leader in front of a relative stranger that he is still analyzing. The quick smile at the end is his appreciation for Blackthorne's confidence in the face of great odds against.
Only in reality it was the SECOND. According to the book.
I’ve watched the complete 1980s series. Great show, much enjoyed. I’ve seen all current episodes of the 2024 series & enjoyed them. The difference between the 2 is interesting but not disturbing. I haven’t read the book however it is now on my list.
Shegun 24 😂 so dark can I see anything so blurry . can't I see the beauty like the 80 series
Both versions are awesome. I do prefer Chamberlain's Anjin over Jarvis' tho'.
I like original Mariko and Anjin better. I’m Japanese and I think new Mariko looks and sounds so westernized
Hai, user-hp3yh9vl8s-San. Domo for your comments. We have heard from some people saying that "Japanese people" prefer Shogun 2024, so, it is very nice to hear from actual, real Japanese, that give honest opinions about the 2 series. We all appreciate your comments. Domo Arigatou Gozaimashita.
@@theshogunchannel I've heard from multiple perspectives on this that the Japanese see more omote, ura, and shin in 2024 than in 1980, but this is misleading. 1980 was Blackthorne-centric, catered to a western audience, etc, while 2024 is not. 2024 is heavy on presenting the Japanese interactions -- personal and political. So the weight of the viewing experience favors the Japanese side -- not that there's anything wrong with that. But this means that omote, ura, shin are necessarily more prominent than in 1980. It's not that 1980 lacks these characteristics -- it absolutely does not; it just doesn't manifest as often due to 1980's focus.
I fortunately got to see shogun from a dvd rental site back in the 2000's so i grew up watching it because of my parents. Just because of that nostalgia I prefer the 80's version. But the more recent version is really amazing aswell, just exciting to see these types of comparisons being made and others being made aware of this amazing story.
Absolutely brilliant actor's...
🇯🇵🤍🙏
I like in the 2024 version how whenever someone is translating what Blackthorne says the subtitles show how the wording is often slightly different to what he actually says, sometimes in such a way that can be interpreted in a different way to what he is trying to say.
Different translators have different agendas and interests when translating, adding an extra bit of tension in what would otherwise be a mundane procedure.
私は日本人ですが、真田広之氏の仕事に拍手を送ります。彼は日本人が時代劇に求める、重厚な演技と雰囲気を現代のグローバルな土俵で見せてくれました。特に西岡德馬さんの自決の演技は日本の時代劇でしか見られない気迫を感じました。また、浅野忠信さんを始め、日本国内で今、実力のある俳優さんたちが魅力的な演技をしてくれたのがとても喜ばしいです。「将軍」よりも面白い題材がたくさんあると思うので、ぜひこのスタイルで新たな日本の時代劇に取り組んで欲しいと思います。
コメントしてくださってありがとうございます。カナダのバンクーバーで撮影された日本についてのシリーズについて、日本人として、セコイアの木々がカナダでしか見られず、風景が日本のものではないことについてどう思いましたか?
@@theshogunchannel
すみません、私はカナダのセコイアの木々だと認識できませんでした😅
確かに日本の四季や風景は日本らしさを語る上で欠かせないものですが、それらの要素にもしこだわるのであれば、題材も変える必要があると思います。
日本人も別に100%日本であることを求めて作品を見てる訳ではないので、そこのバランスは作品のメッセージ性によると思います。
@@tiebr5596 ご返事ありがとうございます。良いコメント。アリガトウゴザイマシタ。
The new version is a beautiful setup, but I have to say I prefer the original. It just had a different feel that I prefer. The story focused on Anjin, and we as viewers were kept just as much in the dark as him. We rarely got to know more than he did, which made his uneasiness and confusion easier to understand. And I prefer several of the old actors. like Father Alvito, Rodrigous, Yabu, Naga and Omi.
Richard Chamberlain was also fantastic as Aramis in the Three Musketeers
A lot has been said about the more muted colour palette of the 2024 version, but what strikes me the most is the depth of field and dynamic range. There's not much of either, and on purpose. The scenes almost look like they've been shot on DSLR with vintage lenses. Backgrounds are very blurry with swirly bokeh, which adds to the gloominess. Dark and light colours are close to each other in terms of lightness/darkness, for example you don't see much details or nuance in people's hair, they're either pitch black or white when reflecting light. Interesting choices.
80s were relaxed 😎
l love forever richard chamberlain❤❤❤💝😍😘💝😍😘💝😍😘💝😍😘💝😍😘💝😍😘💝😍😘❤❤❤❤❤
And Richard Chamberlain loves you too, RosaV-San, forever. By the way, Richard Chamberlain's birthday is coming up in 3 days: March 31st. Domo Arigatogozaimashita! 👍😄
Have to say I like the old one. There's a part in the new one at the end in which Blackthorne says "unless I win". It doesn't fit with the preceding dialog. This conversation was in a different scene in the 1980 version. However, the staging and importance of the scene with music and effects is much better done in the 2024 version.
Very cool. The current version seems to honor both the book and the original TV mini-series, with Richard Chamberlain (hard to beat!) . I look forward to seeing the new version!
In the book, the "Unless you win" scene involves Toronaga commenting on the English being in revolt against their "liege lord". Toronaga says this should never be excusable, to which Blackthorn replies "Unless you win". While it's not so obvious at that point, this scene in the book lays out a major theme of the book -- the nature of the japanese politics and bushido code. When Toronaga breaks out laughing, that's Toronaga acknowledging the truth revealed. In this current version, the scene just becomes about Blackthorn bragging himself up. I'm disappointed to lose the original scene.
Hai, CliffJones-San. Highly Excellent Comments and Analysis. I agree with you 100%. Shogun 2024 has become somewhat of a different story. I, too, am disappointed. Domo for your excellent comments. Arigatou Gozaimashita. 👍
Lol, bushido still wasn't written during this time. This story is based on ieyasu Tokugawa. Bushido was written during the Edo Period.
@@grandadoboman1995 The concepts that evolved to become the code of Bushido were already in existence since the 11-12th century in Japan.
@@ALwinDigital yeah, they had a code of conduct. All medieval societies did. But not bushido.
@@grandadoboman1995 it might not have been called Bushido, but James Clavell is writing a fictional story so nothing wrong with him coining the phrase a few decades earlier.
I've seen the 1980 version when it first aired. I enjoyed it but it didn't really have the vibe for the period. It was coming on the tail end of the Sengoku period. Seeing the 2024 version really shows how things were. The country had endured over a century of civil war and things were coming to an endpoint. The 2024 version seems to show how things really were.
The only problem with Shogun 2024 showing how things really were is that they filmed Shogun 2024 entirely in Vancouver, Canada, which is not where things really were: The Sengoku Period took place in Japan, and not in Canada. Also, Shogun is not a history book, but a historical fiction. This left room for romance and culture, which Shogun 2024 is sorely missing. Arigato Gozaimashita.
@@theshogunchannel I am very much aware of where and when the Sengoku Period took place and the book was not meant to be a history lesson. The location setting was probably due to cost to film. It was probably less expensive to film in Canada than Japan. That is always a key item with producers.
80s version is shit for me cz it's closer to the book which is white culture superior than japanese culture n all that bs i feel that's the tone... The new 2024 takes a different turn n gives more authentic representation to the japanese culture and doesn't look it through a white man binoculars with superiority complex... Ugh@@theshogunchannel
The original version is without subtitles, that rises the tension for all people who do not speak japanese.
But it shows how the protagonist may have felt in a country without knowing the language by not translating it to us either 🤔
The old Shogun - much more focus on the romance between Mariko and Blackthorne. New Shogun - so far, more emphasis on the intrigue and politics occurring in Japan during this era. Both are well done, but I’m enjoying the new Shogun because it puts the whole story in a different light.
In der neuen Mariko kann man sich auch nicht verlieben 😂
Love both scenes.
i am so watching the '80 version as soon as the current one is finished
Hai, Tbwj21-San. You will absolutely love it, and after finishing it, I would love to hear your comments. Arigatogozaimashita.
Interesting, looks like the original was filmed in Genkyuen Garden at Hikone-jo.
The changing of the meaning in the all-important dialogue, "Not if you win" totally sunk the new version for me. In the book and 1980 version, though we didn't know it at that point in the story, it's what swayed Toranaga to respect Blackthorne. And by the end of the book, thinking back to this exchange, Toranaga fondly remembers the moment as when he bound Blackthorne to himself.It explained just about every action he had had with Blackthorne since the exchange. More personal, more emotional, more human stakes.
Hai, Mark-San. That was an important line that Blackthorne delivered, and we started at that scene, to actually see Lord Toranaga (Mifune) start to like Blackthorne. That was missing from the new version with an unsure "Unless I Win" from Blackthorn 2024. I just did a Shogun Showdown on that very scene. I agree 100%: More personal, more emotional, and more human stakes. Excellent comments. Arigatogozaimashita.
@@theshogunchannel Because 2024 missed the point completely. The conversation was about how Holland was in rebellion against Spain and rebellion against one's master was unforgivable. "Unless you win."
The new Anjin looks kinda goofy compare to the old one
Genau meine Meinung. 😂
2 words: Toshiro Mifune
Hai, Nedsnark-San. Those are powerful words. Arigatogozaimashita. 👍
and three more words John Rhys-Davies. Rodrigues in the 2024 version is not even a presence. Another thing that bothered me about the 2024 version was the saki scene where Blackthorne and Buntaro are having their pissing contest, Blackthorne talks about cannons to which Buntaro says he can shoot farther and more accurately with his bow. But in the 1980 version and the book the conversation is about Blackthorne's pistols compared the Buntaro's bow.
80's Mariko is somewhat more convincing that today's Mariko. 80's Mariko actually has a Japanese accent when she speaks English, whereas 2024 Mariko speaks English with a British accent
I'm only 3 episodes into the new one so far, and am really enjoying it. But the one thing I loved about the 1980 Shogun was the lack of subtitles. You felt you were put in the same shoes as Blackthorne, having no understanding of Japanese at the start, but learning the language along with him as the show went on. It was done really well so that you always knew what was going on even if you didn't speak Japanese.
The production values of the new version are superb, and so far the drama, the acting and everything else is spot on. There is a lot more tension in the new one compared to what I remember of the old one (it's been quite a long time since I saw it). If I have just one minor criticism, it's the dialogue that is in English in the show, where they're actually supposedly speaking in Portuguese. It's understandable that they probably didn't want to have the entire show subtitled and have to train the actors to actually speak Portuguese as well as Japanese (for the ones who don't already speak it), but it very slightly detracts from the authenticity for me. But not enough to take away from the fact that it's a great show and I'm really enjoying it.
Both versions are great, but! The 1980's version has a better theme song, I believe.
So the conclusion is the Japanese commenter like the new one because of the authenticity of costume, design, etc. While the non Japanese (American?) like the old one because it's more bright and a hint of nostalgia for Chamberlain and Mifune.
Shin Nishida (Japanese, who doesn't speak English) designed all of the costumes for Shogun (1980), and won The 1981 Prime Time Emmy Award for Outstanding Costume Design for a Series. Being Japanese himself, I'm sure that Shin Nishida knew exactly what Sengoku Period Kimonos looked like, and he won a very prestigious award for it. I have yet to see any awards for costumes for Shogun 2024. Also, many subscribers do not like the "darkness" in Shogun 2024, they have said repeatedly that they cannot see their faces or facial expressions, which is definitely a plus for Shogun 1980. Shogun 1980 was also famous in Japan. Also, Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune are like Heavyweight Boxers. I do understand what the 2 Shoguns are about: They are about two different perspectives on The Shogun Novel. Agree with your assessment. Arigatogozaimashita.
@@theshogunchannelYou mush have really hate the 2024 shogun huh, You even argues with one of the japanese commenter about him being a bot.
Iye, I don't hate Shogun 2024. I can see that Shogun 2024 is not a remake, but it's own entity in itself. I understand their point of view as well. They are, in fact, two different perspectives, covering the same novel, Shogun. My mistake in thinking they were a bot. Arigato.@@oreo3087
@@theshogunchannelit's いいえ (ie) not iye. There is no 'ye' in Japanese.
Arigatogozaimashita, Kamizukuri-San. I definitely appreciate your correction. いいえ (ie) not iye. Domo Arigatogozaimashita. @@kamizukuri 👍
The new version is awesome and certainly more “cinematic” in style, but the biggest difference is how much easier it is to actually see the 1980 version.
Having watched both when it first aired way back, Richard Chamberlain had the better acting chops hands down
I wish Mariko had translated the part where Blackthorn says how absurd the Spanish and Portuguese are for dividing up the world like this
In response to Blackthorne commenting...not if he wins..."You have named the one mitigating factor." -Toranaga "Shōgun" (1980)
It's so interesting to see how people have different takes on their preferred version. I read the book a few years ago. Loved it, though I did feel like it could use some condensation. Watched the 80s version and thought it was well done but was not very much to my taste and seemed a bit dated to my modern eyes.
I'm currently two episodes in the 2024 version and I'm absolutely blown away! The realism, gritty aesthetics, cinematography, character portrayal and fast pace are just fantastic and so compelling!
And yet I must concede that some aspects of the 80s version were done better, such as how no subtitles helps the audience feel that fish-out-of-water feeling of a foreigner in Japan and the part where Toronaga laughs at "unless you win" (though I read that it was done later).
The new version is an incredible treat for me to watch, but it's even more fascinating to me that people would prefer the 80s one. Perhaps some of it is just preference and some of it is nostalgia? Either way, it speaks to the strong themes of the source material and how different people's interpretations of it, 40 years apart, can be. If only James Clavell were still alive to give his opinion.
What a time to be alive.
"I assure you their arrogance is unbelievable" always makes me laugh my ass off.
I am watching the 2024 version on its own merits, having read the book twice and watched the 1980 version. I love the new series but it's very hard to match Toshiro Mifune's portrayal of Toranaga. The man is terrifying just to look at and despite most of the rest of Japan being against him, you somehow know he's coming out on top...
Hai, AB-kx4ty-San. Excellent! That is the way I have to watch Shogun 2024, as it's own, standalone series. Otherwise, I cannot replace Toshiro Mifune with Hiroyuki Sanada, because they are just too different of actors, in my mind. You're 100%! It's very hard to match the powerful, King-type demeanor that Toshiro Mifune had. Excellent Comments. Arigatogozaimashita. 👍
SHOGUNは観てないんだけど、1980年版の映像の方が、よく観た日本の時代劇っぽくて安心する。
近年のハリウッドが撮る日本ってやたら青いから、そのせいでリメイク版は日本の雰囲気出てないなって感じてしまう（SHOGUNはマシな方だけど）。
衣装やセットは、リメイク版のがしっかり作られてるように見えるんで、たぶん衣装に関しては、前作は衣装スタッフが作って、今作は着物職人の方が作ったのかな。
I really liked the first Shogun. The only thing strange in the first series was that the costumes seemed brand new they didn't seem worn to stiff and starched if you catch my drift. An excellent series all the same, I do hope the new version hasn't been too condensed and sanitized, which for me would detract from the truly excellent book. In point of fact more details of this very interesting topic would make a superb series.
Hai, IanWheeler-San. I agree: the costumes were pristine in Shogun 1980, and they could have had a more worn-in look, but I also agree: A very excellent series. Good Comments. Arigato Gozaimashita.
@@theshogunchannel All of the costumes and sets for the 1980 version were hand made in Japan. An issue with the cinematography was that the cameras and other equipment was not the same as what was available in the US at the time. In the 1980's version Blackthorne's ship was actually a replica of the Golden Hind that was sailed from England to Japan to be used in the movie.
@@rickbruner5525 Domo for these Excellent and Informative Comments. Arigato Gozaimashita. 👍
I find it difficult to say which version I prefer. It is easy to pick apart the differences of the two. But ultimately, it's whether or not I am entertained that matters. And I have been immensely entertained by them both. There are actors in the first version that I prefer, such as Damien Thomas as Father Alvito, and I believe that had Toshiro Mifune been directed to act in a more serious tone, he could have pulled off this newer version of Lord Yoshi Toranaga impeccably. And of course, you gotta love Orson Welles narrating. In time, this newer version will have its own place. It's captivating and entertaining. That's ultimately what it's supposed to do.
No bloody way. Chamberlain was far better than the new one.
Someone forgot to turn on the lights in the new one.
Hai, Alyu1129-San. That is what everyone says. Arigatou Gozaimashita.
@@theshogunchannel どういたしまして /Dou Itashimashite
1980 Shogun is better than 2024 Shogun period! Hiroyuki Sanada is a good actor and producer but he cant hold a candle to the great Toshiro Mifune. Its like comparing John Wayne to Jeff Bridges in their versions of the western film True Grit.
All the actors in the original version were better and more memorable to me than the actors in the new version, although I like Henry Sanada. And the original version was more faithful to the novel and for me, had more heart and not because of having more romance.
Mariko sama is always gorgeous
I think they are both great.
the 80's version is clearly written and directed from a western perspective and expressed in a way that westerners of that time could appreciate.
I believe that the 24 version has a much more Japanese perspective focusing on things more appreciable by Japanese.
Just an old white guys perspective.
I like them both.
The original is an American Japanese production with a completely Japanese crew. The script writer is clavell the novelist. It was shot completely in Japan, on location with Japanese carpenters and artisans for every aspect of the show. The 2024 version is a completely american production shot in Canada with a Western crew with western artisans
respect for 1980 but 2024 is absolutely epic and shivering
I loved the original because i grew up watching it. The new one is also growing on me too, it captures the essence of the book very well.
Remember, Anjin san, that i told to forget fighting the portugese in Japan, that it is hopeless?
And you answered:
-Unless i win.
That was the moment i bound you to me. You are right, my friend, everything is possible if you win. It is stupid to lose, inexcusable.
The actual quote is:
The first time I saw you, I said "There's no excuse for rebellion" and you said "There's one- if you win". Ah, Anjin-san, I bound you to me then.
Changing it to something about fighting the Portuguese from the original conversation in the novel about the Dutch rebelling against Spanish rule ruins the foreshadowing that James Clavell wrote in the novel, where Toranaga was accused of/considering rebelling against the Taiko's will/successor.
@@ALwinDigital i know. What i wrote was a spur of the moment, a reaction to the dialog. James Clavell did a great job writting the book.
@@jedi423 true, it’s not a total loss on the foreshadowing part. But it doesn’t have the same level of depth or meaning or parallelism as the original line.
The book and the 1980 version direct the question to the matter of loyalty, which is the problem Toranaga is wrestling with, and Blackthorne's reply is the answer to Toranaga's problem - so they bond with each other, suddenly. The new version has the question be a bland one about bravery against odds. Not the same impact or meaning. The new version is very pretty and well-acted, but the dialog has been altered to remove subtleties presumably because the script writers no longer trust the intellect of an audience brought up on comic book literature.
@@davidgiles7393 LOL, "comic book literature" is putting it lightly.
There are people in various comments sections saying they will never read the book... because they think the TV adaptations are enough.
I prefer this latest version. It really captures the tension of the times. The politics and struggle for power are brought to the forefront. The cinematography is exquisite. Far superior in my opinion.
Hai, MikeNoble-San. I can definitely see how it captures the tension of the current times. Domo for your opinion. Arigatogozaimashita.
The 1980s version seems much more light hearted while the 2024 version is serious to the bone, much more ominous atmosphere.
If you have not watched all of Shogun 1980, you ought to do yourself an enormous favor and watch all 9 hours on Archive.org for FREE. You will then understand how so many millions can love Shogun 1980, and have indifference for Shogun 2024. Arigato Gozaimashita.
Both versions are class 👌 Will watch the original after the new version. Seen it many times from when it was broadcast
modern version is better. there should be huge tension when toranaga finds out the catholics are planning to overthrow his government. sanada plays it perfectly with barely concealed outrage. the '80 version is a walk in the park.
The old version is far better than this "remake"... for example the scene when Blackthorne is made a samurai, on of my favorites. On the old series you can actually feel the importance of "knighting" the Anjin, and what it means to him and everyone else... you can actually see the disbelief in Yabu's face or Omi's, although he tried to conceal this, and how proud is Mariko...this is even clearer for the spectator when Mariko says "now, Anjin-san, you are samurai". Although in the book is clear that the Anjin was already a samurai from the moment he was made a hatamoto, the old series reinforces the status of the Anjin as an ally. In the new series he was given the swords and that's it. Also, in the new series there is no "all the village will die if you don't learn Japanese" moment. The "I cannot live with this shame, therefore I must commit suicide" moment that leads to the Anjin being reborn into a "new life" and finally accepting his new fate was completely omitted.
1980 SUPER SHOGUN Richard bravissimo 👌👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏💯🔝
Both look brilliant…and cool.
I find it funny that they speak english , portugeese japanese and the dutch….english…..
Never saw the original series but I do know that Hiroyuki Sanada made sure to represent this time period down to every last detail. Just based off of that fact I think the new show is superior. & I’m definitely a fan.
Hai, AliciaJackson-San. Actually, The Author of The Shogun Novel, James Clavell, was The Executive Producer for Shogun (1980), and it was all filmed in Japan. Do not be fooled: Disney+ Hulu FX Shogun was filmed in British Colombia, Canada. Hiroyuki was not sure to represent the correct landscape of Japan, but instead, gave us Canada to be viewed as Japan, which the two landscapes are very different and have entirely different growing zones. So, the last detail that he forgot was: Location, Location, Location. He got it wrong. You should take the time to watch all 9 Hours of Shogun (1980). You will be a Super Fan of it, once you do. Arigatogozaimashita.
The original was an american Japanese coproduction with the novel's author writing the script. Everything was shot in Japan, on location with a Japanese crew, Japanese craftsmanship and Japanese everything. The new show is an entirely American production shot in Canada with an american Canadian crew
idk what their on, about sounds like a very resonable split literally a mandate of heaven