The Problem With Electric Power Steering - Hydraulic vs Electric!
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- Опубліковано 11 тра 2021
- Hydraulic Power Steering Isn't Dead Yet - McLaren Explains The Advantages
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Hydraulic vs electric power steering! What's the difference, and why are automotive journalists always complaining about electronic steering? And is there actually anything to these complaints? I took some time to speak with the chief engineer of the McLaren 620R and learn all about McLaren's philosophy on steering. We'll talk about the history of power steering, what McLaren believes to be the best steering strategy (for sports cars), and the science of how hydraulic steering systems can genuinely offer better road feedback.
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Just hit 3,000,000 subscribers!! Big thank you to everyone who has subscribed, watched, and supported this channel over the years! You sure do know how to make a nerdy kid with a whiteboard feel special. Thanks for being curious, for learning about cars with me, and for joining in on the discussion in the comments in an overwhelmingly positive manner. I can't thank you all enough!! 🙏
Congratulations 👏👏👏🎆🎆🎆🎆
Thank you for your knowledge sharing
I don't know why i like you soo much you are truly a gem of car UA-camrs
congrats dude I've learned so much from you and its made me interested in engineering as a possible career option.
Been following you since the webcam days! Keep up the good work Jason!
Hey Jason, to reduce some background noise in scenarios when cars don’t have dampening, be quiet for at least 15 seconds while driving. Open your audio track in Audition. Select at minimum 10 seconds of that no taking segment. Capture the noise print from the effects > noise reduction menu. Select your entire track and apply an effect called noise reduction process. Adjust to your liking.
Wow, neat!! You're saying you don't enjoy an abundance of road noise?! Haha, thank you for sharing!
@@EngineeringExplained I think he's saying that if you want to decrease that, then here's a way to do it. Some youtubers don't remove road noise because they don't know how, and some don't remove road noise because they don't want to. This will give you a choice that you didn't have before. I love road noise, but would be happy if it were decreased ever so slightly, because it will accentuate the road noise between the talking and help break up the video a bit.
@@samfedorka5629 lol, I think he was joking in that response
@@EngineeringExplained Please don't use noise cancelling. It always sounds far worse than the noisy version of the audio - I can't stand it.
@@C.I... Agreed. Since the sample used for noise canceling will be at a specific speed, it will sound off as the vehicle changes speed and road texture changes.
From whiteboard explaining to roaming with clutch plates in Honda S2000 to McLaren 620R, this kids come a long way.
This "kid' is almost 50 years old.
What kid?
He was 23 when he started😂
Now he must be 31 or so.
So he was a kid 😂😂😂
I thought he said he was born in 1970 or something like that
@@sprinkles2765 That was a joke, he's like 32-33
"Warm and sunny day to talk about these systems" -Jason 2021
I don't get it
@@johnreese7352 the weather looked cold and cloudy. He was joking.
I love that Jason gets to review and spend the day with cars like this then talks about steering racks. Ultimately I’m watching no matter what but it’s just hilarious.
He explains all of these details while driving at the same time.
My Wife: Where do you want to eat?
Me While Driving: I can't think right now. I have to maneuver around this other driver.
Gotta appreciate the whiteboard when it makes into this kind of video👌
It's great how you explained steering from a driver's perspective to those of us who don't get the opportunity to drive cars like these. I really enjoy your videos, and congrats on 3 million subscribers!
Thank you Sujay!!
@@EngineeringExplained Has anybody tried to put (simple, piezo?) microphones in the suspension and acustic (vibration) transducers in the steering wheel, so you can have all the assistance and still the "feel"?
I enjoyed this video as well even though this car is my daily driver.
@@TheChzoronzon That won't give the steering feedback. When we say feedback, it is referred to feeling the bumps and undulations in the road that the tyres come in contact with. It's like, when you hit a pothole, the steering wheel twitches slightly, except it's for much much smaller imperfections. I think I probably didn't explain it well enough, sorry. But, that's the basic idea.
And even better than what mclarens doing, is the one by GMA on their T.50. It is basically an electric rack, but it only assist when at small speeds, like parking or crawling.
@@naseeb46 I don't have the subject so clear... a microphone captures vibrations... an electro-acoustic exciter, similar to those used in DMLs, reproduces vibrations. The feeling you get in any steering feedback is just that, vibrations. There's nothing magical or special about it.
They can travel through a solid metalic medium (the steering axle), or if well done, through wire... it's a tech we have pretty nailed, you surely have heard about microphone & loudspeakers...which are exactly that, vibrations captured, sent through wire and then reconstituted... to a much more precise degree than what I'm talking about, I'm pretty sure that accurately getting the timbre of a violin is more difficult than bumps in a road...
I literally just looked up how power steering works yesterday and didn't find anything good. Your timing is perfect!
This is why this channel is the bomb. He'll tell you how something works, but then in a separate video like this, he'll tell you WHY IT MATTERS and how different driving systems affect the experience for the layman. Thanks for the context Jason!
A huge advantage of direct electric steering is new features like self driving or auto parking. But I guess if you are buying a McLaren, you probably want to do the driving yourself.
I want to do the driving, not the parking
@@22Platypus Indeed Richard
I just don't see why you couldn't do that with electro-hydraulic power steering. Sure, it's difficult to do with pure hydraulic steering (ie., pump driven off the engine), but when it's a completely detached system (ie., the pump is driven by an independently controlled electric motor), you can adjust pump-provided flow/pressure in an infinitely variable way and thus, as I (intuitively) understand it, achieve the same effect. Or am I missing something about how the hydraulics fundamentally work?
@@mnxs electric hydraulic steering is no different/smarter than any hydraulic steering. The electric hydraulic pump just makes high pressure oil. You can remove an engine driven pump and replace it with an electric pump without any other modifications.
Any hydraulic system, would still require an extra electric motor to drive the steering wheel for any self steering, don’t mater if it’s electric pump or engine driven.
The car got dirty so quickly because you are in LA, I got my car washed, drove it 0.2 miles home to park it in a covered spot, came out 2 hours later and it was covered in dust.
Literally.
My dad grew up in Pittsburgh in the 1950s. He said that, on bad days, motorists would have to sweep the mill dust off the car, like a dusting of snow, before going for a drive.
"Dirty air," today, simply doesn't hold a candle to how it used to be.
@@bcubed72I mean, *any* dirty air is bad air, so just because it was even worse 70 years ago doesn't mean it's not worth improving, or indeed complain about. But perspective is nice, sure.
i would be so nervous driving something so expensive in that fog. good video!
That too while recording.
With those tires
And with explaining different types of steering
Why? It's insured.
@@davidjereb you still don't want to be the guy that wrecked a 6 figure car. UA-cam won't let you live that one down anytime soon.
Always learning something new. This car is wild, cheers on 3M!!!
It was also ppppppgp
I have manual steering in my 91 MR2 turbo. I don't mind the difficulty parking because it feels WAY better than any powder steering I've tried.
The best solution for a sporty car? GMA has electric power steering mounted on the column, not the rack. The power steering works only at very low speed, then it completely disengages, so you have no assistance.
Wow, if only McLaren had thought of a way to turn off an electric motor they could have saved so much money!
Sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious.
I like how we a speed limit sign come up and suddenly the camera is off the speedometer. Haha. Congrats on the subs man!
You're absolutely correct about the additional inertia the motor adds to the system which filters out the higher frequencies. I would be interested to see how Porsche and Ferrari solves this problem with their electric systems. Porsche especially has pioneered EPS and I've heard the their cars still have wonderful feedback. GT3 being a case in point.
Steering feel is everything. Years ago a friend lent me her 2000 box stock 323i and the steering system was traditional hydraulic. Coming out of a GTI this was a fantastic car. Steering on the throttle is fun. Forward to two years ago I borrowed a 320i from the shop my GTI was being serviced. I was stunned to not have linear response. I couldn't dial it in. When you tried to dial, the car became twitchy with an accompanying lack of confidence when cornering. It felt like an over boosted Oldsmobile from the '80s. Great explanation.
I bet McLaren loved watching this back and seeing him with both hands on the wheels for like 10% of the entire time 😂😂
LoL. I bet its not one-of.
Haha, they got their car back unscathed, they're happy. :)
@@EngineeringExplained Except for those floor mats. lol
@@calholli And the scuff marks on the plastic panel in the footwell.
Press cars, if they get most of the parts back at the end it's a win.
Did anyone else get a little nervous seeing him jerk the wheel while next to a guardrail and certain doom?!
I'm impressed that he has taken the time to record at least two separate video segments during what I'm sure was a very limited time in the car. Hopefully there's more of this great car coming.
Btw... congratulations on 3m! I've only been here for a year and am looking forward to many more. Keep up the great work!
As an owner of a car with electric steering (2017 Mustang Ecoboost)
It is my LEAST favorite thing about my car (Including the terrible remote mount shifter), so floaty and disconnected.
I HATE IT.
I can't stand driving newer cars because of this.
This is a warm and sunny day, You ever been to england?
The sun does not shine on the British empire
@@kevinnorris6558 I wonder why
Ireland says to England: "Hold my beer" 😁
Sunshine State: More Lotion and Sun cream and lip blam
@@markoz673bajen8 Rub it in why don't ya. 😁 Sun cream is not a thing in my environs.
This channel has come so far......this is just incredible.
Hey Jason, your channel is awesome. I’m always on the hunt for content where I can learn something whilst being entertained. You never fail to do this, kudos to you!
Like the hydraulic steering on my e92. Driving something with electric power steering feel like a video game, feels good to go back to hydraulic afterwards..nice and heavy with wider tires
I miss that about my e92 m3. Best steering I’ve ever felt
E90 335 feels great too.
If I were sitting where you are driving that car, I would be smiling, not making a video. Congratulations on hitting 3 Million subscribers; you earned it.
My friends 2004 Mazda 3 had electric hydraulic and the steering feel was amazing for cheap economy car lol.
Just love your honest and clearly explained videos and long may you continue.
you know the video is good when there's car reviews AND the whiteboard is there. Also congrats on 3 mil subs
Congrats on 3M subs!!!! Always great content!
Jason, speaking of torsional forces on the steering column, have you ever noticed the rubber isolator system on the Crosstrek? Instead of a solid column, the damper is put there on purpose to reduce the feedback from the steering, which is also electric assisted. The STI's came with a solid column for the improved feedback. I've put a Perrin damper lock kit on mine, and it made a huge improvement in the road feel for little money and effort. Congrats on 3M! Awesome work!
Great point!
This was an amazingly detailed talk about a very important yet seldom discussed topic - power-assisted steering. Wow. You woke my interest.
I'm always excited when I get notified of a new EE video.
Great and insightful video! Lots of good info being delivered here. 👍
Basically, I just heard an excuse from a McClaren engineer that they don't know how to tune a servo system to achieve their desired response. I understand that there's a specific response and behavior desired in a car like this, and perhaps just like an audiophile there are good reasons to incorporate older tech as a simpler way to get those desired results. Yes, electric motor rotors have mass, but AC servo tech is such these days that you have control loops in the microseconds and motors that can accelerate at mind-blowing speeds. In some respect, it sounds like they need to use an additional encoder on the opposite side of the steering system to maintain responsiveness while permitting more of the road feedback through the starting column. No doubt, there's a lot of development to make it all behave as desired. Taking it to extremes, you could even incorporate a temperature model into the control loop to change the feel to mimick fluid temperature change through the driving cycle.
As for most daily drivers, electric power steering is now the preferred system due to a variety of advantages it offers, as well as tech that it enables, such as lane keep assist, auto parallel parking, trailer backing, all the way to various levels of automated steering. Hydraulic assist just isn't innately capable of doing these things.
I'd love a video explaining the tech behind Cadillacs Magnasteer in the late 90s early 00s cars... I had a 99 Deville and it didn't have a head gasket but boy did that Magnasteer make driving so leisurely
My Grand Prix had the Magnasteer system on it too, I thought it was great. It was variable so it was super light at parking lot speeds and comfortably heavy on the highway
There are plenty of youtubers out there with way more subs and can't even touch this much content. But lets not compare and just be thankful for these types of channels giving us supreme content. CHEERS E.E
It is kind of amusing how loud the interior is. Lots interesting noise happening even at low speeds.
It's mostly due to the fact it's mid-engine...the engine being behind you... This is evidwnt in the most sold/successful/cheapest mid-engine sports car in history: Toyota MR2. The ones that have powersteering has electrohydraulic power steering.
Congratulation on hitting 3M subscribers!!
One thing I find funny is my little old 98 Saturn SL2 has a variable effort hydraulic steering system when alot of cars even later on never did (until electric steering obviously). It simply has a little electronic valve in the power steering pump that lowers the hydraulic pressure the faster you go and at highway speeds it's bypassed almost entirely giving you a manual rack feel.
Lots of cars have that.
@@DonziGT230 Not really in the american domestic market at least. I can see it being common on european and maybe japanese vehicles. Only american vehicles I can really think of that had it were some 90s-2000s Cadillacs, 1st gen Chevy Traverse (and its relatives) and I think the Corvette. I'm sure there were others but not many.
Congrats on your content creation journey and reaching 3M subscribers!
Always love your videos Jason. Keep up the good work!
actually looked like a really nice day toward the end. cloudy but not wet. congrats on 3 mil btw!
Hi, Jason it's cool to know your YT channel has get 3M subscribers. You deserve 'cause you really do a great job here... congrats
My Pontiac G6 has electric steering and it is so devoid of soul, it feels like driving a video game. My 82 Mercedes is way more fun to drive.
11:03 Poor fly wanted to share its engineering knowledge on the white surface below, but you disturbed its effort... I expected YOU would understand =D
Congratulations on 3M subscribers, you rock!!! 💥🎉
2:24 nice NC with the retractable hard top! :D
Honestly, I love that my old MR2 has no power steering. I really wouldn't have it any other way.
Serious question though: is power steering really all that important for MR or RR layout cars? None (relatively speaking) of the weight is over the front axle, and so the steering is inherently lighter than in a front engined car, right?
Steering feel is most useful at the limits of tire adhesion - the more feel the faster one can react to a loss of traction and know how much counter-steering to put in. Prob don't need this kind of feel unless on the track; though it can be helpful in emergency conditions if you've practiced counter-steering. Awesome video - cool to learn how the high-end manufacturers do steering.
It's nice to feel the road texture at all times IMO!
Amazing video, so well explain! Could you make a video about dry steering (turning the tyres while static)
Wonderful information. Big thanks 👍
very thoughtful explanation, thank you!
I LOVE this CHANNEL so much. You are so nice to listen to. I always learn something new.
BUT - 3m subs and still no proper bass/quality focused mic :D The sound needs improvement so much :)
Interesting topic mate thanks for explaining
What an awesome video. This video should be used as a reference for engineers that work on steering. I've always been fascinated by tuning steering feel/feedback. One of my favorite videos you've done so far!!
Unfortunately most customers don't want any steering feedback. :(
"This video has been brought to you by 1st and 2nd gear." -Jason
Great explanation! love your video's
Fiat Chrysler put electric/hydraulic steering some years ago in Dodge Challengers and Chargers. When I got my 13 Challenger, I looked for the steering reservoir to find out the car has a fully contained electric/hydraulic steering system. The system works very well. The power load on the engine got transferred to the alternator, since the pump is now gone. The electric/hydraulic steering put high cyclical loads on the alternator. The extra load caused some alternators to fail and led to the P60 alternator recall. Mine was replaced without any problems with the original alternator. The systems works very well and I have no complaints. Its interesting to discuss this on a McLaren, though many cars today have electric/hydraulic steering.
"Warm and sunny California ", your just out before 10am.
I used to drive a 2005 Saturn VUE with electric power steering, and it was fantastic! It's not a car where you need much feedback through the steering wheel, but it was still fun to drive. As a bonus, the electronic power steering never needed any maintenance. Between that and the manual transaxle, about the only regular maintenance it needed was oil changes.
Thank you so much for adding real engineering, and not being an apologist to whatever the manufacturers in general are selling :)
Driving that car at those speeds feels like a crime
Haha and not even on a track - what am I doing?!
super helpful thank you
The best car UA-camr by far... You actually know what's happening mechanically throughout the whole car...
Seriously impressive how such a highly tuned engine can tootle around at ~1000 rpm so smoothly.
After driving an old Miata, yes, I can say full hydraulic feels AMAZING. However why do they feel different? This video explains why McLaren uses this electro-hydrolic, but NOT why hydraulic feels so different to electric. I mean yeah, "micro vibrations" and motor inertia that Jason mentioned, but there's so much more. In my old Miata, I could feel exactly how much weight was on the front axle, plus it would tighten up as you start to load up the steering rack in a corner. I've never felt that in any electric rack load up in a corner as much as that Miata (or my old Accord for that matter too)
I’m quite early this time! Congratulations on your (well deserved) 3 millions!
my 15 ZL1 has electronic power steering and I love it, no issues so far. Some of the best steering i've ever felt in a car, period. Is this system similar?
This is the first car I've owned with electric steering, this is the first time I've had no issues with leaking hydraulic hoses or replacing steering racks due to rotten hoses. Also the wheel will react to quick inputs a lot faster than hydraulic systems.
yes there is a HUGE cost/maintenance (or lack thereof) benefit to be had for the masses fitting an all electric rack hence another reason OEMS have switched. i've gotta replace a hydraulic rack now for a 2nd time that i recently replaced. 1st time it was leaking like a sieve (super old) but now the replacement (a rebuild) is loose on one side so the steering is wandering.
@@phillyphil1513 Also the hydraulic system is always working, while the electric motor only works when you turn the wheel. And the critics that say that the steering feels numb is BS, I drove a Scion FRS and the steering was super precise and quick to react.
I agree. The leaking lines also had the potential to cause rubber bushings to break down and leave terrible messes. Not to mention the headache of removing them. I had to make my own out of brake line for my old Honda and eventually ripped it all out because I was tired of the leaks!
Hey, I'm early! I always love new vids on this channel!
Nice job Jason, nice job. 👍
The first gen Mazda 3 actually has hydroelectric steering as well, and of the Mazda's I've driven it's my favorite steering feel, so maybe McLaren has a point?
Congrats on 3 mill! Took me from high school to my third year in electrical engineering 😁
Beautiful explanation.
Really thorough explanation.
just give me an electric power steering that switches itself off at 30km/h.
That sounds like a great idea. I wonder if the mass of the motor would still be dampening the shocks though. Perhaps better if it would be able to completely disengage from the rack at high speeds, but it risks getting very complicated at that point.
Power steering prevents death wobble. So if you disable it then you’re bringing yourself at risk of crashing. Or if you hit a curb with your wheels without power steering then the steering wheel will injure you violently if you have no power steering.
Congrats on the 3M Subs!
I like your use of the turnout lane. It's a gentle demonstration. "This is how these work."
Awesome job teaming up with NHTSA!
What up guy’s! Hope you all have a great day! 😊
Likewise! 👊
guys*
On the center lock nut thing with racecars, I have seen many tires come off racing cars during races, so the redundancy is a good idea for sure!
I am confused. The 7k Fiat Panda of my mom 15 years ago already had that: It had regular steering assist but also a button called "city mode" - when you pushed that button steering got much, much easier, and you basically could steer with a single finger - was great in parking lots etc. Why is that now considered groundbreaking technology in uberexpensive sports cars 15 years later?
Very neat, I like that steering button! Similar to today's "comfort" vs "sport" modes that are common for steering. Also as mentioned, that they're using hydraulic steering is not groundbreaking, it's been done plenty, but most have moved onto electric power steering, and this video explains why McLaren has not.
The panda had electric steering assist we had one and it was great.
I once had a Fiat Panda as a rental car in Italy and was wondering why the steering was so insanely light as I zoomed (as much as you can zoom in a Panda) down the autostrade. It was only the next day when I was driving in daylight that I saw the City Mode button was on.
My 87 Nissan Sentra, had a light on the dashboard that would light up if you had a tail light out. Don't know why they don't do that today.
My BRZ steering feels really nice although i think its electric only. This would make sense because a lot of the vibration and things do not come through to the steering wheel, but the feel for turning the car is very nice.
Apparently for the second generation they deleted some features from the eyesight system to prevent it from having a negative impact on steering feel, which is a nice consideration.
The BRZ has a manual steering rack, with the electric assist motor located on the column. This tends to give a better feel, than the rack-mounted motor that brands like BMW use. :)
All I know from personal experience, is that my EPS sometimes is inexplicably heavy or noisy, or both. And I've never had issues with hydraulic PS, even neglected 30 year old systems.
Congratulations for the 3mil subs...
I know you can do it since you were at 500k but dude.... It took a long time
I converted both my Miatas to OEM manual racks, and I love them. Not great in parking lots, but even though I'm nearly 62 years old, 5'5" tall, and can barely do 10 push-ups, I'd never go back to hydraulic. I just love the feeling. (I'm pulling into and out of a parking spots maybe 1% of the time I'm in the cars?)
Car manufacturers should implement the force feedback system that is used for computer steering wheels in electric steering
Why? You can feel the road with electric as well, just not those micro twitches since they are usually filtered. Force feedback would just throw you off and make driving unpleasant.
Not if its properly done, Logitech can help them out since they have prior experience with force feedback systems. I've driven a new F150 with electric steering and the experience was abismal , no feedback what so ever
I nice breakdown of the two different steering technologies.
I remember "variable power assist" being advertised in the 1980's.
McLaren maybe don’t have a good rep for reliability and build quality but their F1 experience definitely filters down into the engineering of their cars. This is 620S is stunning.
Good info! Yes that's one more F1 derivatived engineering solution for high speed turning and precision positioning that "we all" can enjoy!
On a different note, the only McLaren that I like is the MP4 12C. Not to much curves lines makes it more attractive to me...
I don’t know! It sounds on the road exactly like my Altima does! Raw experience! Congrats on the 3 mil!
Bugs and dirt. Quality B-roll. XD
9:13 that Cobalt spooked me a bit looking like it was headed for you before correcting.
Love that my STI has hydraulic steering
Just spitballing here. Could an electric steering assist motor be coupled to the rack via a semi-flexible coupling that doesn't cause high freq. vibrations from the road to be damped out by the motor itself?
My wife was actually the one that convinced us to keep our old Opel car as it has ZF hydrolic power steering. We have tried a number of more modern cars that our parents lent us when we went on holidays, but my wife kept getting these vision migraines. She said that the old car feedback of the road actually reduces the stress on her eyes, because with the electronic power steering there is no other tell of the road conditions or wheels pulled sideways, other than the visual feedback. I do not really have this problem myself, but I do feel like there is such a numbness to the steering when it is fully electrical, that it feels like making love with ten condoms on.
Bruh that soupy thick fog tho “warm and sunny California.” On a mountain with a low visibility car is pretty scary ngl.