Nomais: made possible the teleportation and time travel Owlks: made an artificial planet and an afterlife simulation Hearthians: made an entire new universe with music
@@Cowboybeardie that wasn't even intentional, we were just curious what will happen, and then eye read all our memories(very rude) and made a new universe around them
@@ix67ml The eye needs a conscious observer to create a single universe out of the infinite possibilities. It needs your memories to create the new universe, or rather that is what affects the outcome.
Marshmallow that heal you instead of very lightly damaging you is a great advancement tbh (Eating lots of Marshmallows irl won't be good for you, but for the Hearthians, it's ok)
I don't know if I'll be able to get this across properly, but I think that the Nomai are technological savants, able to create new technologies with relative ease. The Owlks, on the other hand, seem to have an understanding of physics and the universe that allows them to get by without as much technological advancement. Their entire aesthetic is so wonderfully rustic and simple, they use hydro-power rather than black holes, they use the rotational energy of the stranger for gravity, and use the water for travel. It's like, the Nomai can build a flying vehicle to get you from point A to point B, while the Owlks can use a ramp to get the same, or at least a similar, result; two wildly different ways of reaching the same conclusion. All that aside, it didn't take very long at all for me to fall in love with BOTH of these tiny civilizations, and the differences in their tech and culture are incredible, no matter which one is smarter or more practical.
But consider the simulations the Nomai don't have nearly enough advanced tech to send their conscious into a simulation they don't even have simulations or screens.
@@Millticker A good point! However, the simulations and the Nomai's ability to send memories back in time, while very different, still have a remarkably similar effect in the long run. Maybe this is more of a narative point than a technological one, the simulations and the Time Travel Lite (TM) that was created by the Nomai are both rather crude forms of immortality. The Owlks bypassed death for eons through their simulations, keeping the brain active without the need for the body, while the Nomai allowed the perpetuation of consciousness by sending memories and experiences back in time. It's not exactly like comparing apples to oranges here, but it is another example of two wildly different peoples creating two wildly different methods of reaching comparable results.
@@groverwatch2171 I'd say it's the difference between taking time and using time. The Olwks locked themselves away forever and will happily stay in that dream for eternity, while nomai only want to reuse the same 22 minutes, meaning other than their memories no time would have elapsed at all
@@more-reasons6655 Another way of looking at it is the Olwks want to use their time for a dream like state, whereas the Nomai devise a way to use their time as a way to discover as much about reality as possible.
@@Millticker I feel like The Nomai could do that if they wanted to. They were a nomadic species so in my opinion they would have the belief that nothing should last forever, Maybe not even their consciousness. They could easily take over the entire universe if they wanted to. But they go somewhere learn for a while and move on.
To be fair, supernova in our world is not a devastating blast, rather rapid expansion of solar plasma. The more the plasma expands, the less dense it becomes. But the things, that make it "dangerous", are intense radiation in all wave lengths (including thermal) and sudden "appearance" of the "atmosphere-like" environment in space. It is this "atmosphere" that will create a "air drag" for inner planets, that will gradually slow them down into remnants of the Sun. Not only that, a medium like that would make a great heat conductor, rapidly heating objects it surrounds. Hypothetically, it would be possible to make some thermo resistant shelter even with our technologies.
I personally think that the impressive part is that it WORKED.... WITHOUT TESTING. It's easy to test the statue, one second back in time is enough and can be done with the Sunless City's power alone. But they had no way of being absolutely sure the nova would generate 22min of power (any less would render the loop useless), nor that the bunker would last long enough.
@@reflectingPastChoicesWhy would anything less than 22 minutes render the loop useless? I get they probably calculated some time needed to effectively allow the probe to reach the eye, but a loop of 20 minutes is still pretty damn incredible and useful.
@@LilJbm1 Because the probe needs 22 minutes to reach the end of the star system. If the loop is but a SINGLE minute shorter, it will either - reset to after the canon already fired - not give the probe enough time to reach the eye In both cases, the loop would be useless. The Nomai calculated 22min because that's how much they *needed*, not how much was available.
One thing to remember when comparing the ships, is that while it's really cool that the owlk ship had a whole biosphere, the whole reason it has to have a biosphere is because it was slow. It physically traveled the massive distance between the star systems, so the owlk had to prepare it for a long journey. It may have even been a generation ship for all we know On the other hand, the Vessel didn't need to contain an entire world within it, it could travel instantly so the nomaii would never be without a world for any extended period of time. They're both impressive space ships, but when it comes to actually traveling through space, the Owlk are embarrassingly behind
I disagree. Imo it doesnt much matter why they did things. And I even admit I think the Nomai probably could built something very similar if they wanted. Its still something way more impressive that the owlks have. That the nomai dont. I also dont note that the nomai also have trees on their vessel that supply them with oxygen. And I wouldnt be surprised if they ate whatever grew on them. Even if they were just leaves. So they do have some renewing resources as well. But imo thats nothing compared to an entire biosphere working together. Another thing to remember is the warp technology the Nomai use is basically a natural phenomenon. The only thing they really did was capture , suppress, and be able to call upon a black hole. Which are just warped spacetime. And while that takes an impressive understanding of the universe. The things that would make that feat mostly impressive have been taken away. When the black holes dont exhibit their usual tough things to deal with. Like we can safely get near to and enter them.(no spaghettification) And they dont grow to make any issues bigger. And even when we enter them we immediately get expelled somewhere else. Almost everything that makes black holes dangerous or impressive to conquer have been stripped.
@@TheLoreExplorer The Kardashev scale would disagree that a ringworld is as impressive as you make out, compared to harnessing the power of a black hole and creating a stable, orbital station in the photosphere of a star in which people can live and work. Not to mention instantaneous travel between two set points in spacetime. And not only that, but recreating that tech from remains of your own civilisation after losing the majority of said technology. Your video is fun, but you're very clearly lacking a LOT of relevant knowledge of context within the topic.
@@oxymoron02 Agreed. He's obviously excited, but I was skeptical when he said the Sun Station had to somehow resist the pull of the sun (demonstrating a lack of understanding of orbital mechanics), and outright stopped watching when he said the Stranger is more advanced than the Vessel just because it's bigger.
Damn, you guys are being rude. Keep it mind that he is the one producing a video, writing a script, editing, etc while you're just watching and passing by. By doing so, next time you need to voice any (rightful) criticism it will come out a lot more nicer
I feel like one big point you missed for the owlks is that they went to the eye of the universe, the beginning, life, and end of everything, and completely blocked off every signal it emits. That has got to be one of, if not the most advanced pieces of technology ever created. They made the universal reset button nearly inaccessible, and it was only stopped when a member of their own species turned it off. Otherwise, the eye would be lost until the end of time. I think the ability to stop a new universe from ever being created again is pretty powerful.
That’s the same thing as their cloaking device though. I do say how I can’t state enough how advanced being able to block every signal in the universe is.
@@TheLoreExplorer Oh I'm not saying that you ignored it. I'm just saying that i feel like there is a huge difference between blocking their ship, and blocking the origin of it all. I still have to agree with some of your other points though, especially since the nomai were just growing and started from nothing not long ago. No hate
What I find interesting is even signals we wouldnt think of as light , like radio signals, are just a wavelength of light. Same can be said about the eyes signal. Its just light. And since the owlks had mastered light. In most senses , the eye is just another planet to them. I focused on the stranger because it would produce many signals. And have to record many others from space. While the eye signal blocker would only block 1. So its sort of like 1 signal vs many. But if you want to put special stock in the eyes signal specifically I can see whyd youd say this. It has to be special in some way for both the owlks and nomai to react the way they did. But the nomai being able to pick it up sort of hints at it being a more common signal.
@@TheLoreExplorer I see what you are saying. I guess it does have to be an already widely-known kind of signal for the Nomai and Owlks to have just stumbled upon it randomly. I'm gonna have to agree with your points in the video then. I was just initially holding the Eye's signals to a higher complexity than other signals, such as those of the stranger, but I can see how it is all similar then
@@TheLoreExplorer A real life parallel would be us suddenly receiving an orderly radio transmission from space, perhaps with an unusually long wavelength. This could tell us that an alien intelligence exists, and would make sense if the signal is extremely old - having experienced the full expansion of the universe and being stretching significantly. If it's really "older than the universe", I'd imagine we could find reflections of it embedded in the CMB, bouncing all around us. And if we had to devote our resources to research one thing in the universe, it would probably be the source of that signal. If it's actually radio waves that the eye emits (which makes sense since the signal scope can pick it up), then someone capable of fully masking visible light would probably find masking lower frequencies to be trivial. Though physics in Outer Wilds is kind of weird sometimes, so we don't know what kind of signal the eye actually transmits.
It makes sense when you say the owlk simulation captures your entire "essence" because your brain dies, but as the Nomai statues continue recording despite you dying to enter the simulation, it proves that they're not recording your brainwaves either and are also recording the same "essence" (whatever that may be - extrabodily consciousness essentially, your conscious experience isn't tied to your brain).
I don't like to think about this complicated technologies as some magical devices that can capture a soul. I think it is pretty clear what is going on The device is triggered when you fall asleep. It records your memory and puts it inside a simulation. It also maintains the connection to your irl senses so that you can wake up from a bell or outside danger of any kind. And it is fair to assume that it actively returns new obtained information from the simulation to your brain so that if the connection is suddenly broken, your real brain will remember everything. Dying is very simular to falling asleep. The device is fast enough to record your memory before you die completely. It fails to mentain the connection to irl body ofc, but your memory is already inside a simulation before you die. Ash twin project does basically the same thing, only difference is they somehow can record your memory at a great distance. Your brain produces EM waves and though the intensity is miniscule, the signal still travels at the speed of light. Nomai statues may be sensitive enough to capture the signal and actively record your memory. If you die before entering a simulation, the device may produce simular signals while trying to connect to irl body, that is why it is still recorded by the statues. Or it's just a game mechanics
@@stevengucum I agree. Evidently the owlk simulation is wireless, so it probably receives and transmits brain waves via EM fields of some kind. The nomai statues might use the same type of field to record memories. When you die while in the simulation, the device will still try to send your waves back to your now deceased body, and the statues might be able to pick up that signal.
@@stevengucumyeah except that technology doesn’t make sense and isn’t possible. The closest explanation is a soul, which isn’t too unrealistic if you want to think about it from the perspective of a universe that has macroquantum superposition mechanics. You can’t exactly record memories from a distance, the brain doesn’t leave signals like that. So even then, the technology the nomai use isn’t any less magical.
@@zzodysseuszz you can record brain waves, so it's scientifically possible that a society with generations of deep physics knowledge (like the nomai) could record them from afar. if the owlk dream technology was created to record the EM waves your brain produces, like @stevengucum said, that would be less magical and more scientific. it can be magical in your headcannon if you want, but i think explanations like these are way more fun/less annoying
The fact that the owlks built 2 out of 3 simulation fires over water or in an area susceptible to floods bothers me... They clearly knew they would live in the simulation after their bodies died, why take the risk of them being flooded?
Exhibit A: They destroyed their home for a mission, that may not even have been worth it, as they could have possibly never even made it there to begin with. Exhibit B: The stranger had minor "power issues" that could have very much have shut down the simulation in its entirety. Come up with other evidences of why they didn't think in the long term.
Susceptible to flooding isnt really the right term. Its built on stilts so that if it does flood. Nothing would get wet that shouldnt. The dam breaking is sort of an extreme scenario. Its shown they did plan ahead to a certain extent. They made it so their ship was looking for signs of the suns expansion. So the ship would fly away when they were in danger. They just didnt expect one of their largest structures to fail. But yes. It would have made sense for them to put them all above a static "water level". But tbh there was little reason to expect turning on the ships acceleration should even hurt the dam. Its such a slow acceleration that it shouldnt cause too much extra stress.
The owlks I think just didn't really care about tech, they were only motivated after seeing some crazy stuff. They didn't have the curiosity of the nomai
@@SpencerfromEarth The funny thing is that there is just as much universe within the mind as there is outside in space. The Owlks understood this, but were also vulnerable to it, just like the Nomai were vulnerable to hostile space. The Owlks understanding of the soul or "software" is not to be scoffed at.
@@SpencerfromEarth the owlk. If you think science has been about curiosity then you are naive. Our greatest inventions such as nuclear energy, were done so out of fear.
@@SpencerfromEarth Well, don't you think that the fear of your entire universe being destroyed is a reasonable one? And a thing you cannot ignore is that they destroyed their entire home moon to build this spacecraft that is a planet on its own, just to get to the Eye and see what it is, because they were amazed by it. That is just as crazy, if not more, as the Nomai warping to a new location on a whim because they caught an interesting signal. It is wrong to same that the Owlks were scared creatures.
The Owlks were still beyond my expectation for a DLC lore. I was predicting a new planet with about as much depth as Brittle Hollow, never thought we'd see a new specie introduced, let alone a type 1 civilisation; and seemingly completely different to the Nomaii! Very nice surprise, overall.
Nomai advanced in studiying universal physics and owlks advanced in understanding their own mind Different species, different technology, different goals
@@TheLoreExplorer i meant to say like they were advanced in very different scientific fields so its kind of unfair to compare them like that (the video was amazing tho)
@@gabyyyyyyyyy this is just the apples to oranges argument, which i think doesnt make sense. Of course you can compare apples to oranges. Just because its a different thing doesnt mean one isnt still better at their thing than the other. If we were to take an average golf player and put them up against michael jordan and ask who is the better athlete, you arent gonna say "they play different sports so its an unfair comparison"
Try uploading a brain actively to a simulation, storing it there and actively sending memories to and from the body, while containing it in a flame and device. Also they didn't even need the bodies that means it copied you brain and put it in a simulation Wich is the same as creating a extremely advanced AI
@@Millticker The Nomai managed to send and imprint memories across time and space, which is like putting someone in a simulation, but probably way harder
@@Millticker Mind uploading is putting electrical neurons from flesh into new metal stuff. Time travel is literally punching a hole in reality, and breaking physics as well as transferring a mind back in time.
I would say that, even if the Owlks _were_ more advanced than the Nomai, that would shortly change if the two were to ever meet. The Nomai have shown themselves to be highly adaptable, crash-landing in a variety of hostile environments, and yet shortly after were not just surviving in those enviroments, but thriving. They built cities over a black hole, under a moon that spewed meteors, and inside a planet that's more sand than ground. I can't see the Owlk's surviving in any of those environments, not nearly so well, if at all. The Nomai seem to rise to any given challenge, enjoying new problems to solve, opportunities to use their technology in creative ways to adapt and overcome the obstacles in their way. In fact the seemingly insurmountable challenge of the Eye was even leading the Nomai to ever more reckless behavior, pushing them beyond their previous limits into a state of mind that barely blinked at the idea of blowing up the sun in a localized time loop in order to power a quantum probe launcher, as opposed to just, you know, sending out a bunch of probes. I would say the Hearthian Nomai were becoming something different from their wandering brethren, being taunted by the knowledge that the Eye, the answer to all their questions, was so close, yet so far. I doubt the Nomai would respond any less dramatically to meeting a more advanced species. Additionally, whereas the Nomai integrated with their obstacles, literally living with the danger, the Owlks used technology to isolate themselves from the outside world and all the danger it carried. Honestly the different ways in which the two civilization approach technology is worth a video in and of itself. But as for the question of which is more advanced, it's hard to say, but I can say that the Nomai would be overjoyed to meet a species more advanced than themselves, whereas the Owlks would be terrified. Both would probably rise to meet the challenge, but the Nomai's track record on that front is undoubtedly more accomplished.
That's a great explanation, very well sums up how both species operate. One note I'd like to add is that I don't think that neither species would be hostile towards the other if they ever met, but especially the Nomai. They would be curious to understand and learn from the Owlks, and the Owlks would probably prefer to be left alone and try their best to hide their existence from the Nomai.
@@RedeemerNDestroyer I doubt it, the Owlks would definitely be antagonistic initially upon gleaming that the Nomai's goals are to find the Eye. They might either become doubly apprehensive and confrontational, or if wise enough, project their own visions of the Eye to their minds to dissuade their curiosity.
I think the differences in personality alone clearly show the nomai are more advanced/intelligent. The owlks are ruled by fear, as the prisoner states and all their actions show. The nomai are ruled by curiosity. It's clear to me which is more desirable for a scientist.
You’re basing that off nothing. There’s nothing to suggest that they couldn’t survive or thrive on those planets and the nomai spent years settling on those planets.
Both are capable of making super structures, for certain. The stranger and the vessel indicates that. They are both also capable of storing MASSIVE amounts of data, the statues and the simulation show that. However, while the light tech of the owlks is impressive, we humans have similar technology already in all degrees. The owlks seem to simply be more efficient at it. Thats where the nomai start beating them in the tech race. The nomai have warp travel on micro and macro scales, matter manulipation, gravity creation/control via those crystals, cryostasis in the escape pods, And are capable of SPLITTING A BLACKHOLE INTO PARTS. And somehow faster-than-light information travel WITHOUT black hole tech, given the hologram-like communication pads between planets. The owlks had to make a generation ship to travel between the systems due to a lack of warp travel, as they had no cryostasis of their own to preserve their bodies. If that were the case their bodies would still be alive even in the simulation. They also have a lack of gravity control, which is why their station spins to make a fake-gravity. They dont have any kind of matter manulipation as they were seen time and time again building things with their hands. Their highest form of tech would be their simulation and their cloaking technology, the latter which is simply a basic hologram that only works against a black sky. And their simulation has already been matched by the nomai, because of their memory storage statues. Both the sim and the statue has to copy and store a ENTIRE BRAIN. Everything the owlks can and has done, the nomai has done far better. The owlks werent even a space faring race when they found the eye, the hearthians are technically further along in their socialital development than the owlks, despite the nomai's interaction which would break star trek's prime directive.
i just want to add that even if the owlks had artificial gravity, they would probably still build a rotating ship because it creates natural rivers which are clearly important to their culture (from the slideshows we see of them) and otherwise simulates their home moon better which they were clearly very fond of. also we have no idea about the speed of transmission of those nomai projection pools since the star system is relatively small, and we honestly don't even know the speed of light in that universe. the light tech of the owlks also seems to provide an infinite energy source as the kinetic energy you get from using a flashlight on them greatly outweighs the energy used for activating them. i still agree that the nomai have more going for them but honestly it seems like the owlks at some point were extremely into science as well but took a very different approach to it compared to the nomai, leading to very different discoveries. then at some point, for some reason they decided to just settle and focus on their culture more rather than pursuing science (until discovering the eye)
I feel it’s very unfair to just call the cloak a hologram, it’s much more than that. Not only can it block signals, but it can also perfectly display a replica of the solar system from all angles. The only reason it didn’t project the sun is because it needs the sun as a power source and projecting the suns light back out of the hologram would waste all of that power. Now, back to the signal blocking tech. I’d say it’s fairly impressive that they were able to block the signal of a literal space god perfectly
How is storing memories on par or better than simulating a consciousness? The Nomai were only able to store information, not simulate it. Being able to simulate planet/moon nearly 1:1 is an amazing feat that the Owlks were able to create such a short amount of time. There's pretty strong evidence showing that the Owlks were capable of space flight. Not only were they able to create a huge space station that can travel between stars strongly suggests that they knew what they were doing. There's also a handful of spaceships inside the stranger. The Nomai can't even travel between stars without warping, and the Nomai in the Outer Wilds system can only warp to white holes they created.
@@noizepusher7594 alright admittedly i forgot about the signal blocker. Something that advanced is indeed impressive, but at the same time it could be simply using the same frequency, amplitude and pitch of the eye's signal, but inversed so the two signals cancel eachother out. I remember THAT from middle school, constructive and destructive waves, increasing/decreasing the strength of a wave. Could be the same concept.
@@Em_B a consciousness is formed from a series of memories. Keep that in mind. While storing memories is one thing, its being able to store them live as they happen which is the part that is on par with the simulation. That amount of data processing is incredible, not to mention being able to do it remotely, wirelessly, across the whole system. While the owlks were capable of space flight, they did it in a rush, and as i said before, did it in a generation ship to span the many many many many years to more than likely took them to get from their system to the eye's system. Their smaller ships look more like outside maintence ships, but that part is unconfirmed.
I think Stranger (and small space ships) use solar wind to travel. And their main source of energy is a light/solar energy. I mean, everything inside works on a light energy. You are even pushing a boat via light energy Solar sail technology can even explain why the dam broke. Our star started to expand too fast, producing too much energy and pushed the Stranger a little bit stronger than expected
The Nomai literally figured out how to send information back in time. That’s way more advanced than anything the Owlks did. I feel like humans are less than 100 years away from basically recreating everything the Owlks did.
Before I watch the video, I just wanna say, I dont think its a matter of who is more advanced, just that both species have different desires. The nomai very well could have made advanced simulations, but they didn't have a reason to. The Owlks maybe could have developed inscription tech as advanced as the nomai, but they had their telepathy staffs.
Personally I think the Nomai wouldn't even care. Solanum sees the player and their primitive junk equipment and doesn't care, instead just seeming fascinated by our existence
The argument that "the Nomai at their lowest are -at worse - equal to the Strangers at their peak" makes a good point. It's obvious that lost of tech has been lost (stone houses vs metal vessel is indicative of that) and yet they were a thriving civilization until the Interloper arrived. Meanwhile, the Strangers were very clearly on the decline.
Wait I just realized at 2:14 that the vessel has 5 arms, 2 of which have something attached that looks an awful lot like the escape pods... that means there's probably a bunch of nomai that couldn't escape the vessel due to some complications, and assuming the amount of space on all pods combined equals the number of nomai on the vessel, 40% died on the vessel while another 20% died just outside. Only 40% of the nomai that were on the vessel made it out safely. That must've been very depressing
"and assuming the amount of space on all pods combined equals the number of nomai on the vessel" That actually seems like a really bad idea. If the Vessel gets damaged badly enough that it needs to be abandoned, it seems like a fair assumption that some of the pods might get damaged or destroyed as well. That's why I always assumed that the 2 unlaunched pods were extras, added for the sake of redundancy so that even if the Vessel were to lose two pods, the entire crew can still evacuate in the remaining three. Then again, there's a lot of Nomai skeletons in and near the Vessel, especially around the hull breach. Maybe at least one of the two unlaunched pods ended up left behind because the Nomai that would've taken it were dead.
@@generalrubbish9513Speaking of which, Hearthians might just be really advanced in life-sustaining technologies in a way. Feldspar’s “emergency tree seeds” seem to have worked pretty well for them and there is little rush to get out of Dark Bramble while being stranded is a death sentence to Nomai. Is it because Feldspar has a fish body for some nutrition?
Owlks: Strange technology with abilities even they didn't fully consider. Nomai: Intune with physics and capable of using it in their base technology, but have certain issues with other details. Hearthians: Capable of constructing highly manueverable ships out of wood and random crap, as well as managing to translate another language.
The Nomai and Owlks are much like Dwarves and Elves in more classic fantasy. The Nomai are industrious and their technology is a lot of rocks and runes. But the Owlks use light and wood, their tech seems almost organic at times.
I feel that you can easily tell the nomad are more advanced, given that their transmissions discuss moving through multiple galaxies, whereas the owlks had to remove all the resources from their home moon to travel a distance of a few solar systems.
It's less they NEEDED to, and more they believed in the discovery of the Eye so much they were willing to sacrifice everything to pursue it. We also have no real idea how long they traveled. The Stranger is obviously intended as a GENERATIONAL ship. They'd have entire populations be born, live, and die on it on their way to the Eye. The distance depicted was obviously presented as shorter for the sake of storytelling, as the information was conveyed to you by their slide reel, and obviously not 100% accurate. The Owlks also seem to desire much more humble and traditional lifestyles normally. They're content to live at home, next to the river, and live peaceful lives enjoying music, slideshows, stargazing, and river rafting.
@@Null_Experis But apparently they’re afraid of death. So much so that the rest of their existence after they learn they‘ll die is spent attempting to do everything to escape from it. That’s why I’m for the Nomai
@@redtro8678 The owlks are afraid of death is just a natural feeling. They can become much older, but are slower in reproducing. They lost everything they had + their homeplanet. They found the eye but feared THE end. So thats why they died irl, to live endlessly in the sim. So they technically didnt fear death, they feared the end of everything
Lore Explorer, your depth and passion is so wonderful. One day I CANNOT WAIT to see you explore another game so heavily, to see you fall in love with the lore of more games! You effin got 14k subscribers with ONE GAME rofl. Bruh. Legendary achievement unlocked. That's incredible, man. There's not much like this game, I know, but if you find a game worth anything close, your reputation alone will have me watching every vid. What other favorite games do you have? What games led you here? What are your influences?
I too love your work, LE. And I think you're right. The Owlks are amazing, but not on the same level as the nomai. Now this could be explained by saying the Owlks had different desires in technological pursuit, but the sheer number of things the Nomai created without needing to devastate the planets they were inhabiting speaks for itself.
It was established that Owlk culture was naturally more fearful, and not only that, but the burning of knowledge definitely would contribute to harming advancement.
they weren't fearful, they destroyed their only home to travel to a completely different star system. They only grew fearful because they learned that the eye of the universe would actually kill them, which was true. So it was more out of anger and spite, since the Eye brought so much hope to them, only to seemingly betray them after they sacrificed everything
@@Em_B I suppose that's true, maybe it's more like the vague nature of their premonition caused them to develop a more fearful culture. They only saw the death and paid no attention to the grass that sprouted, and they felt betrayed. Although, I think it's interesting to note that the Nomai didn't really get to understand the purpose of the eye other than it's age and as the origin of quantum items, whereas the true nature of the eye (death and rebirth?) was illustrated to the Owlks. But it seems they misunderstood the vision.
I doubt it very much... because at the same time they would advance, the Nomais would too. And you need to remember that Nomais live in clans. Each clan having its own mothership and knowledge... Which are shared among all other clans in a commemorative event. All this makes the level of learning and evolution of this species far superior to that of our strange friends here. Not to mention that during the game we only had contact with one of the Nomai clans (still isolated)... Who knows what the others might know?
True, if the only population of Owlks to exist only lived on the Stranger, there will be less innovation simply by nature of there being less innovators. It doesnt help that they were willing to burn and ban knowledge as well.
@@K-J-A one of the nomai clans from over 200 thousand years ago, we see on the vessel that it's still receiving communications from existing nomai clans, who knows how much further their technology has advanced in that time period
And I don't think anyone believes they wouldn't have found a way to do it. They just didn't get to. Poke and Pye took a break to explore the fancy new comet that just arrived and.... I'd say mere days passed between the logs at the Sun Station and the ones at the Interloper.
I think it's interesting because the main advantage that the Nomai have over the Owlks is simply in their nature. This is shown very well thematically in game, but both species are probably equally intelligent, but the Nomai are practically fearless in the face of a cold, unfeeling universe and the Owlks are the exact opposite. All the Owlk advancements were in the service of safety. They destroyed their home so they could arrive at the Eye in style and proceeded to live just as luxuriously in their simulation once they realized the Eye could destroy the universe. They feared it, and in that exact moment stopped advancing altogether, instead retreating into their simulation, their faux home that they wish they could return to. The Nomai had it far worse than the Owlks ever did, marooned in a foreign solar system, no means of finding the Eye once the signal was censored, and utterly void of many of the things that helped them advance as a species in the first place. But that didn't stop them even slightly. They rebuilt and unwaveringly went forth to find the Eye or die trying. I bet if they knew that observing the Eye would destroy the universe they would find the idea fascinating instead of terrifying. That is the main difference between the two, and the way the game portrays that mostly subtextually is brilliant
Wait, So I just had a thought The projection of the Nomai technology, being able to observe a location from another area, Is that not kind of similar to the simulation? Your body is being perfectly recreated somewhere else, and your mind is active in that clone rather than you. Only the Nomai technology is doing it physically rather than digitally, even though there’s definitely some digital information being passed along there. It’s a weird comparison given the difference in application and the limitations on each, But the idea of recreating you and putting you elsewhere is there in each.
The nomai projection pools appear to be the same tech as the liquid metal pools in the gravity cannon modules. It’s basically like T-1000 terminators but without the ability to control color. So yes, they should have the ability to simulate minds even though they haven’t done so. Maybe they consider simulations a waste of time because they can’t be physically productive there.
@@J7Handle Theoretically speaking, the entirety of the Ash Twin Loop (Probe->Ash Twin -> Probe) is basically an attempt to gather information from the future by simulating a loop that never happens. They just happen to be using Analog rather than Digital methods.
Wait, the right slot _lands_ the shuttle? I thought it just kinda spun around, I didn't realize it actually made a _landing_. Also, my favorite observation is that every single thing ATP was trying to do worked. The only thing the Nomai failed to do was turn it on, and that's only because they tried one thing and then got removed from the solar system by a comet with a vendetta before they had the opportunity to try something else.
I think you're spot on, particularly with one specific point - the Nomai had their progressive mindset until the end, they were living to progress their society and knowledge no matter what, and the society we saw died out spontaneously to a tragedy, while the Owlks as a society (while I don't think this means that the species is *inherently* regressive), ended up shunning what they feared and did not understand, and locked themselves and their whole society away in their dreams, and they kept their whole planet together, censored, hiding away knowledge, while the nomai had a culture of all the different clans exploring the universe and learning anything no matter what And in the end, the seed the Nomai planted ended up leading the Hearthians to their own expeditions and knowledge, and our own Hatchling leading the way into the end of the universe But, all of this was because of the seed planted by one, rebellious, curious, Owlk and I think that's kind of an optimistic message for the game to have, yaknow
We do know what method of propulsion the stranger has. It’s green so it’s probably the same technology the rafts use when you shine light on them. It’s a solar sail.
The Nomai are explorers. They're extremely curious and have an intense desire to learn, explore, experiment, and invent. Like the Prisoner, I can't see them wanting to live in a simulation, there wouldn't be anything new to discover or learn about. I don't think it's a tech they'd have a reason to develop. The Owlk on the other hand don't really seem to incorporate much tech into their daily lives, and don't seem too inclined to leave their ship, they don't strike me as having an innate desire to explore. They chased down the Eye just like the Nomai, sure, but instead of just building a smaller ship to check it out, they basically took their whole population AND their entire home planet with them, and when that wasn't up to snuff, they built a simulation that was even more like their original home INSIDE the ship. They seemed pretty content to live in their simulation, living their same lives, never seeing or learning anything new, except for the Prisoner. And we saw how that went down. Instead of trying to learn more about the Eye like the Nomai, they burned the temple and then launched a weapon that sealed off the Eye entirely, where the Nomai just kept trying to reach the Eye and learn more and more about it.
I don’t think it’s fair to say they weren’t able to make the Ash Twin project work. It works! We see that it works, loop after loop after loop! It’s the Sun Station that didn’t work. The Ash Twin project’s goals were to A) send information backwards in time by 22 minutes, B) trigger the launch of the probe into deep space so C) they could eventually find the Eye of the Universe. That all WORKED. That is the metric of success, not detonating the Sun. Just because they’re a little late doesn’t mean it didn’t work.
*Too long, dont want to read -. In the most technical sense. Youre right. The atp functions. But not as intended and the intended goal technically wasnt reached In the most technical sense...I suppose. But I guess my best example would be a fire arm. If I built a fire arm and the hammer didnt work. And I tried 100 times to fire a bullet. Yet nothing ever came out because the hammer never ignited the powder. Then , 20 years later , the gunpowder goes unstable and ignites on its own and the bullet fires. Its not like the fire arm I built works. Ya know?(some leniency on how fire arms work for arguments sake) And I could also argue on a literal basis. "Their goals were to build a machine that would send info back in time, trigger the probe , and let them find the eye". Ok. Then they failed. They never found the eye. Sadly they perish before this happens And based off their words. Nothing they could conceiver of would change this. The entire point wasnt just to find the eye, It was to do so almost instantaneously(from their perspective). And in this sense , and many others , they failed. They didnt have a backup plan on how to power the atp. This would also sort of , kind of(but not entirely) , be like scientists claiming we successfully built a warp drive. Or sci fi rail gun(that shoots electricity). We just need the power to actually realize it. Since making energy fields should theoretically bend space around a ship to propel it forward. There is a ton of stuff that we know could work. We could(and almost certainly have) built. But if the energy or power isnt there , on call , it doesnt work irl.
@@TheLoreExplorer I guess it depends on what you define as success. I would classify the Ash Twin Project as a success because, to me, the mechanism that Is the Ash twin project worked. Soundly so. To use your example of the gun going off, I don't think it's like the gunpowder randomly getting unstable, because even if it somehow did that it wouldn't fire in a way that would perform the intended function. The Ash twin Project works. It does Exactly as it meant to when given the power necessary to make things function. A more accurate way to put it wouldn't be if the hammer on a gun didn't work, but if the bullet wasn't in the gun. It still shoots the bullet, it still makes a hole in the wall. But the gun maker died before they could load it, or couldn't somehow make a proper bullet for it. Is the gun still a failure if it can fire rounds but is never loaded? Or if the bullet itself is never made properly? I would say it is not, since the gun does as it is intended to do by the creator. But that is what I believe.
Well, the Owlks made their simulation not for the pursuit of knowledge, but to spend their whole existence there. The Nomais wouldn't need that, they would see no interest in living in a simulation, so they did not even tried. I think the Nomais are definitely more advanced, maybe they are not as advanced as the Owlks in specific fields but not because they couldn't but because they did not try.
I think we may be a bit fooled when we think of the Owlks as more primitive than the Nomai, or at least an older civilization. I mean, yeah, the Owlks found The Eye long before the Nomai did, but for all we know, the Nomai may still be an infinitely more ancient species that the Owlks.
It's difficult to say, in the end of EOTE we learn that it has been many generations since the owlks died off before the nomai intercepted the Eyes signal And we know only one group of Nomai are known to have found the signal (the clan in the hearthian system) because every nomai clan share their findings every ten years so if any nomai existed before the Owlks they would have intercepted the original signal from the Eye
I think owls are more like us humans. They have pretty brutal engineering, but their electronics are much more advanced. They're basically hearthiang but depressed and without the marshmallows.
18:00 or its the other way around, despite the hatchling's death, the statue are still able to record the memories even though its inside the simulation.
I think that something to think about is the fact that the Owlks got here first, as well as the fact that they had such advanced technology for as much as they seemed to be more laid back. Just saying, if the Owlks had as much curiosity and drive as the Nomai, I personally think that they would outpace them any day.
Gang hear me out- in order for the Ash Twin project to send your memories back in time, it must have had to have had a near-complete scan of your mind. The Owlks simulation does something similar, if not the same thing. The data is just used in a different way. In fact, we can tell that the science they use has to be VERY similar as even when you die to enter a simulation the Ash Twin project still records your mind, with minimal interference. This interference could also be connected to the Strangers cloaking, but that's not a given. I believe that Nomai could create their own simulation with minimal effort, its simply that wasn't what they were trying to accomplish. The Owlks, on the other hand, would have had to do much more research to replicate the Project, as they lack the scientific scope the nomai do. In the defence of the owlks, though, we are led to believe they intentionally restrained themselves to one world and of course haven't been applying themselves to advancing while in the simulation, which gives the nomai a bit of a unfair advantage as there whole deal is scouring the universe for knowledge. Its impossible to know where the owlks would be right now if they hadn't stagnated, but that's beside the point.
From one of the other talks, the propulsion of the stranger seems to have been figured out. It's the green stuff. When light hits it, it moves away from it. The huge panels of it in the center of the ship on the sides, work as solar sails. It ain't warp, but it is impressive.
As someone who studies sciences I think it's more complicated than a simple scale of advancement. Think about it this way, is a biologist less advanced than a weapons engineer because they never built a tank? The Nomai and the Owlks each studied the eye and each had their own methods of getting there. in the end they both worked on differing tech that involved manipulating the brain of organic brings yet unless both races worked on the exact same project you can't 100% compare them.
Nomai: Travelled the stars while respecting and preserving local flora and fauna. Owlk: Travelled to one star but destroyed an entire moon to get there.
Possibly the Nomai's most impressive feat are the statues. It connected to and properly affected a completely different species, and it can even retrieve experiences that occurred while DEAD past the stranger's cloaking field. Which is possibly the Owlk's strongest feat.
In Stellaris terms, I see them as both having fantastic Engineering research, but Nomai also focused Physics research, whereas Owlks had Society focused. They're equally advanced, they just researched slightly different things. Sure, one of them has FTL in the form of black holes, but who needs FTL when you can make a mobile planet for several generations to live on? Of course, your last point does make sense, the Owlks are basically a Fallen Empire, now living on a single planet content with their current growth, while the Nomai likely kept growing, only having lost the one group. So, yes, counting the species as a whole, Nomai almost certainly win, I'll admit. Now I want to see an Owlk Ringworld with an Advanced Warp Core inside it. The ultimate spacefairing vessel.
I have a theory that the Nomai shuttles do have more advanced readouts and controls, but you need a Nomai staff to access them. There's a lot of Nomai facilities like that, with seemingly no or absolutely minimal controls... but a Nomai staff could link with them and provide the interface that they'd use to actually build a warp core or fire the Sun Station.
I'd say the nomai got the ATP to work, they just didnt have the time to tweak the sun station in order to power it. If ATP didnt work, we wouldnt have a time loop. The nomai were all killed before finishing touches were made, i have faith that they absolutely would have succeeded, but the interloper stopped their progress in its tracks
Before i even watch, def the Nomai, in broad terms anyway. It feels like the Owlkin had never left their home planet, let along system, until they followed the Eye, which would make them a Type 1 civilization, on the other hand the Nomai were already spread throughout the Galaxy by Escall's time, and 280k years later the modern messages on Escall's vessel show the Nomai as traveling entire galaxies, this would make them a Type 3 civilization. Simply being able to manipulate black holes in hand held containers puts them ahead. Both species seem to have long natural lifespans (far longer than a human's), but the Nomai had a better mode of transport and stronger understanding of how the universe worked. Manipulating individual atoms, generating energy from black/white holes, even their written language is essentially complex molecular chains. Each Nomai seems to have some form of telekinesis too. Stacked stones rebuild themselves, and a wave of their staffs could make anything from the materials around them. They also had ways to generate artificial gravity that didn't rely on centrifugal force (The Nomai chose not to use those technologies in Ash Twin, tho i posit they didn't want energy from other devices affecting the project) The Owlkin literally needed the ENTIRETY of their world's resources to travel one star system away, a journey they did thru normal space with solar sails. The only way they could emulate gravity was thru fictitious forces. As impressive as their cloaking technology was, the Nomai DID eventually get thru it. If the Nomai were alive for finding the Eye, they would have seen and studied the Owlkin cloak ship and probably found the Ark right away as a result. It's actually somewhat sad, if the Owlkin were further away from the Eye, they may not have been able to observe the eye's signal. Their kind would have likely caught up to the Nomai's level in a few thousand years. Humanity in 2022 is technically capable of most of what the Owlkin did. We could migrate to our nearest star if we really wanted to. It would take several decades, possibly centuries, which would require a generational ark like the Owlkin used, which would consume insane resources and labor, but it's theoretically possible. We're also well on our way tocreating augmented and virtual reality environments, and successful research into Brain-computer interfaces is being done now. EVERYTHING the Owlkin are shown to have done, humanity can do today or within the next century. Humanity has MUCH less understanding of quantum physics to have 'warp drives' or other novel Nomai tech. It would likely take Humanity several centuries, possibly mellenia, to reach Nomai level tech. That said, the Nomai didn't really have telepathic communication machines, an ability to directly share knowledge to the next generation, or sophisticated cloaking tech, tho it seems the Owlkin made their journey in one of their lifetimes and made no attempt to reproduce after finding the Eye? The Nomai seemed uninterested in plying their computer skills into suspending their minds in a virtual environment in stasis and eventual death. One thing both species share, is they are generally VERY united in broader goals compared to Humanity. On a separate note, The Heathians, thru the protagonist, were very briefly a Type 4 (or possibly Type 5?) civilization +^_^+ (Type 4 being a civilization in control of the total energy of an entire Universe)
This was not stated but I am positive that The Stranger travels using solar sails. 15:36 Solar sails are a form of travel by basically riding light waves. The solar sails only open when the ship detects the sun is about to go supernova (which says something more about their tech and motives). When the solar sails open, the ship rides the light waves of the sun, and exits the solar system. Basically the same tech used to move the rafts but on a very large scale
While they do act like solar sails. They also act like all the other green glass we find. Which arent solar sails. Also, the stranger sits stationary. It has to combat gravity even when the panels are closed. We also see the stranger do maneuvers in the reels that dont seem possible with solar sails. Like backing up. I truly dont believe they are solar sails. I asked the developer though. So when they respond to the email we will get to the bottom of it!
@@TheLoreExplorer I can agree with that; they’re not solar sails. Though, the fact that the ship starts moving when the “sails” open is still my grasp on this thought. Even if they are not technically solar sails, would it be wrong to call them that based on their purpose?
Id say yes. Solar sails are a specific thing. I think , for players who dont know the difference, that its misleading to call them solar sails. Like how I wasnt sure if you meant actual conventional solar sails or not.
@@TheLoreExplorer Now I’m very curious on this. Since “Solar Sail” is a very specific thing, then what do we call the ship’s propulsion device? The light tech green glass has a very strange property. It’s kind of like a solar panel but induces movement over electricity. That is probably how I concluded “solar sail” but that does not apply to everything clearly. If I were to come up with a name, I would go with “light sail” for any light causes motion. Though the same tech is used in the elevators and I wouldn’t call those “sails.” I would happily call the tech on the rafts “light sails” and definitely call the ship’s propulsion big “light sails.” I believe that the green tech being used as a form of transportation would justify them as “light sails” for they don’t need wind or specifically the sun to function, but need a “natural” force. Outside of that, it’s just light tech. Would you call it something else or would you prefer the name to be unknown? (Assuming that there isn’t a known name already?)
Wed have to know how it works before we could name it. The green panels could just be light sensitive activators. And the stranger could have a more conventional means of propulsion that activates when light shines on them. Right now its hard to say. And I think just saying solar sails confuses people a bit. Thats all Im trying to point out. Im not sure what a better name would be. But I have an interview with the lead dev and director in which I ask about them so Im hoping they will shed some more "light" on the situation for us.
What really gets me is that the Hearthians discovered the stranger on accident with a generation of attaining space flight. Its hard to beleive that the nomai never launched a vetrically orbiting satellite or probe, as thats all thats needed to notice the strangers cloaking field.
i think comparing the nomai to the owlks is like comparing a hammer to a chisel. both quite advanced in their own regards, but incapable accomplishin what the other can for one reason or another nomai tech is often quite grand in scale and capability, but lookin at it, it's all very much brute-force style advancement. instead of any of their "flight" tech havin any sort of actual thrust, it just has breaks, a "go home" button, and is launched out of a freakin, cannon. while certainly intuitive, it's more comparable to what we humans use today than even what the hearthians, the "lets make this thruster bay out of wood" engineers have goin on. they're very much a "hold my beer" species, because while they do a lot of profound thinking, many of their solutions to problems are "what if we did what we were doing before, but we did it BIGGER". of course one can still be a mentally sophisticated species while exhibiting this kind of behaviour, brevity is the soul of wit and genius is found in simplicity after all, but in terms of the level of complexity of the tech, the nomai are very much the hammer, not the chisel. bold, but imprecise the owlks on the other hand have very elegant technology. nomai tech is pleasant to look at, but the owlks really lean into beauty over function. their tech can do amazing things, but first and foremost, it must look nice. instead of having a series of efficiently dreadfully similar rooms and hallways just like the ones in the landing bays encircling the stranger, they built an entire world, and even important rooms dedicated more to the use of the ship than living in it were of a comfortable rustic design. i would go so far as to say that every last bit of wood on the stranger was likely *hand-carved*. the functional parts of their tech have very VERY niche and sophisticated uses, however, and they seem to have a more profound understanding of what the mind is than the nomai. it's one thing to record information and write it back in later, but it's somethin else entirely to simulate that information even just forming thoughts, let alone formin a living being. that said, even their most impressive tech is largely impractical. it looks pretty and can do amazin things, but ultimately it's not exactly *useful* the way anything made by the nomai is (and this is all disregarding how primative the owlks come off as in terms of cultural mentality. in terms of tech complexity, the owlks are the chisel, not the hammer. detailed, but inefficient
Im not. They stated the sun station could never blow up the sun. And thats the only way to power it. Im not sure how else theyd even conceive of doing that
The black hole warp core. The nomai used the black hole on brittle to power their civilization there. But it doesnt have enough power to explode the sun
@@TheLoreExplorer I thought the warp cores needed power to be operated, instead of generating it. Isn’t that what we see in the atp and all the smaller cores.
i think one of the biggest flexes of nomai technology is that instead of just building guard rails on the hanging city, they built an entire station around the white hole to send people back
The thing is, all the Owlk technologies including mind reading/projection, light sensors, simulations, signal blocking, cloaking etc are stuff I can imagine humans achieving in a few hundred, maybe thousand years. But the Nomai stuff, tbh it reaches the realm of godlike power. Instantaneous communication and travel, timetravelling, gravity manipulation, oof. Like it isn't even a question really, the Nomai definitely are more advanced, in that I cant really imagine humans ever reaching their level of advancement.
This was mentioned in another comment (3 months ago but regardless lol) but at 14:50 you show an artificial day-night cycle in the stranger/a version of the stranger devoid of light, I've never seen this happen/appear in game, is it there or was this unused/removed or such?
I think that the nomai are vastly more advanced in a technological sense but lose out in basic understanding of the universe. As in while the nomai use cutting edge technology to do basically anything, the owlks can achieve similar results with a much lower tech solution. they are still incredibly advanced but manage to achieve more with less. I would compare them to the relation between a botanist (nomai) and a farmer (owlks), sure the botanist can tell you every gene of plant and what conditions are necessary to keep them in good condition, but the farmer will be able to plant and manage large fields of crops with minimal equipment. Another thing I find interesting is comparing the vessel and the stranger. while yes I don't think anyone would argue that the vessel is more advanced than the vessel (its a goddamn fully functioning ringworld with cloaking), i think scale is also important the nomai vessel was the pinnacle of a single clan of nomai, a very advanced but single research and exploration vessel, while the stranger is the culmination of the entire race of owlks. Its like comparing a marine research vessel with the ISS. Sure they are both highly advanced but one is the result of a single research teams effort while the other is a full on international cooperation project. They are not comparable.
One correction to a small point that came up a few times: the Ash Twin Project demonstrably works. The Nomai may have never been able to operate it due to not having the power on hand to do so, but the fact that the events of the game happen at all is only because the Ash Twin Project is working exactly as intended on the first try without any hiccups or issues outside of a few broken statues. In fact, the statue that the player is linked with continues to work despite the fact that part of its storage has been removed to be fit into your ship computer. This is the reason your computer remembers everything you log between loops: the Ash Twin Project still works despite another species messing with its tech and still can send information to a remote piece of its storage. In general I agree with your assessments, but I still think someone in the comments here put it best. The Owlks' space faring tech is far less advanced than the Nomai, but it seems to be because the Nomai are more curious than the Owlks. The Owlks appeared to have used technology as mostly a means to an end whereas the Nomai demonstrate constant progression for the sake of research. A last point I didn't see mentioned, though is that the Owlks got to the Eye of the Universe first despite their less advanced space ships. We don't know how long they were traveling to or orbiting in the area of the Eye of the Universe, but we know that it had to have been while they had functional bodies. They probably weren't advancing their tech much while traveling or after reaching their destination and certainly didn't continue to make innovations once they all moved into the simulations permanently. It's possible they could have continued to advance their technology had they not decided to follow the signal of the Eye of the Universe, but considering they didn't seem to be as curious of a species as the Nomai I don't think it would have made much a difference. It also would have meant we would have never learned about them in the first place.
To offer a counterpoint, consider firearms as an extreme example. If the trigger isn't functioning, but the bullet's powder ignites spontaneously one day, causing the gun to fire, then theoretically, everything (except the trigger) works. However, it still doesn't function as intended. I would argue this scenario still falls under the category of malfunctioning. Humanity has engineered countless inventions with 99% of their components functioning correctly. However, if the power supply fails to meet the necessary standards, these creations become effectively useless, unable to perform their intended functions. The nomai deserves tons and tons of credit. But I just think we should mention where they fail as well. As for the scenarios. Yeah. The nomai were curious about more things. And this led to more innovation and such. But that doesnt stand for much. They both innovated when their curiosity was peaked or out of necessity. Id argue that simply ceasing to innovate for thousands of years while you travel or hide away in the sim speaks to the whole less advanced thing. Its fun to imagine a scenario in which the inhabitants further their knowledge of bioengineering or light harnessing/manipulating. But its equally fun to imagine a scenario in which the nomai listened to felix(I think). The young nomai suggested using the advanced warp core for a vessel and reuniting with the Nomai. Id like to believe they could have achieved their goals if they had reunited with the other clans.
@@TheLoreExplorer As far as your firearm example goes, I think a better comparison would be not that the trigger doesn't function but rather it requires too much force for the creator to operate, then someone else with a stronger grip comes along and is able to pull the trigger. Now as far as it triggering itself goes, obviously the comparison breaks down at this point, but I still see it as less of as the mechanism doesn't work and more that the Nomai didn't have the power to operate it. They designed it to be powered by a supernova and it worked with a supernova, they just didn't have the means to artificially induce a supernova so it took until the star naturally died before it would activate. They also knew that this would happen on its own and therefore would have known that as long as they didn't touch the Ash Twin Project it would have operated at some point in the future. Arguably they already had all the technology they needed to operate it, just not the technology to live long enough to see it operate. Imagine I had made a tsunami-proof wall that could prevent the destruction of a coastal town in such a scenario. I might need a tsunami to prove it works and convince anyone it was a worthwhile endeavor, but that wouldn't change whether it would successfully protect the town or not when the first one actually hits. The tsunami is an inevitability, my ability to artificially induce a tsunami is separate from the functionality (or lack thereof) of the wall.
Fair enough view to have I suppose. I suppose we just sort of disagree here. I tend to deffer to a nomais viewpoint in which it would not function. But rest assured others share the same sentiment you do and its essentially just semantics. I do give it credit for everything the ash twin project was capable of doing. I just sort of call them out for not being able to activate it as intended
My take is that the owlks were likely a *much* older species who had largely completed their technological development as far as they had cared to having reached a sort of cultural and technological equilibrium - until they discovered the Eye. This event upended their society with a degree of religious fervor that led to a renewed interest in technological development, and unfortunately precipitated an ecological crisis on their homeworld during the development of the Stranger. From that point forwards their technological development was an expression of their obsession with the Eye, and the necessities if their voyage and the long Vigil that followed after their great disillusionment. By contrast the Nomai seemed to be a younger race of technological savants driven by unquenchable curiosity, who developed technology as much for its own sake over any specific utilitarian purpose. As such, they were far more advanced in more abstract fields, such as the advanced physics that led to their understanding of Warp travel. Culturally on the other hand, they were almost like exuberant children, with relatively little sense of caution or restraint in their explorations, which led them to their end by a different route than the Owlks.
One thing I don’t quite know is right is how the memory statues know we died. I don’t think the memory statues specifically work like that and they theoretically keep going after our death. The only reason why the loop ends there is because in death, time isn’t experienced (plus it would be boring waiting for the 22 minutes to be up) so although the loop probably continues, our character is just instantly sent to the next one with the memories it was able to gather before our death.
No, the reason our memories get broadcasted back as soon as we die, is because that's how the statue records memories. It broadcasts memories back to the start of the loop, not sends your mind back, so as soon as you die, that's how the next loop you perceives what happened.
I dont say they know we died. I say if we die. They have nothing to record. When the loop ends our memories get sent back. They stop when we die. But in the case of dying to enter the sim. The recording doesnt stop. Even though we died. So the statue has to be recording something. And it HAS to be the simulations version of us. And so the statue thinks the simulated version of us is actually us.
I don't think that's how it works. The ATP is sending memories back, not the entire hatchling. Regardless of when you die during the loop, the ATP can't send anything until the supernova powers it. Once it receives power, it sends all of the data it stored to another iteration of you 22 minutes in the past before it can be destroyed. Obviously when you're dead there's no information to gather so it can't store and send anything to do with events that happen after your death. The universe just continues on without you until the ATP is powered and a new you inherits the memories of all the other yous that have been through the ATP. It's kind of morbid when you realise every death is real and the hatchling you continue playing as has the memories of dozens of dead versions of themselves. It's also interesting to realise that any hatchlings that survive the supernova continue existing in their own respective timelines, we as the player just swap over to the inheritor of their memories.
16:10 Those "flashing blue lights" are not visions, they are your memories in data form being sent to the past. If you watch closely in the ATP, you can witness it firsthand
I know that. But we actually do see it. And then it all gets sent to the pc at the beginning of the loop. And again. They literally see our meories play back. Just like a vision.
14:49 wait, when does this happen?! Also, I was under the impression that the Stranger was using some form of solar sail propulsion. (How that works with the cloaking technology, ...I have no idea. Maybe it's something like a magsail instead?)
ya the owlk simulation doesn't operate off memories, it hosts your consciousness, so effectively that you can be dead in the game your consciousness is some kind of energy pattern that can move across other mediums apparently
@@Millticker I still think the nomai are clearly meant to be superior technology-wise. I mean, the group we see in the game literally consists of a bunch of refugees - Other nomai civilizations could be way more advanced. We don't know much about them, but from the little we do it seems they're extremely competent - having figured out gravity fields, warp drives, faster than light communications, storing and transmitting memories (i.e. brain manipulation, not that less impressive than the owlk's simulation), and probably more things I'm forgetting about right now. The stranger and its technologies are sure impressive, but the nomai are pretty much as powerful as you can get. I don't think there's really a competition.
I personally think that a good way to measure the advancement of a race isn't by what they are capable of at the absolute peak of their technological abilities, but rather what they consider to be ordinary. For example, Solanum just casually manipulates gravity to build the little pedestals for you to place the rocks on that she casually cut perfectly out of solid stone, all with a few waves of her staff. The owlk memory staves are similarly casual in their use, used for general purpose communication of complex topics rapidly. The Vessel was designed to travel between star systems instantaneously, and it seems every clan had one, meaning that they were commonplace enough to not be considered particularly special. The Owlks had precisely one Stranger for their entire race, which they had to tear apart their entire world to build. In human terms, digital computers had been conceived of as early as the Greeks, but they would have been so prohibitively expensive to build that they would only be a curiosity for the rich at best. The first "official" digital computer was built around WWII to break the Enigma code, and it was the only one in existence. Nowadays, digital computers are in almost everything that consumes electricity, and all but the weakest ones have enough processing power to send someone to the moon.
Thats sort of odd to me. Its logical enough. But to mention computers and how we went to the moon in the same sentence. And be speaking to how computers are the thing we should measure our advanced nature by. Is wild. Yes. We havent been there in around 70 years. Yes. We only went 5 or so times. But idk. Think its apples and oranges. Rockets, and specifically the Saturn 5 , was a bit more advanced. And they are commonplace now. Also , as a side note. Nomai cant manipulate gravity by waving their hands. It seems to me its more along the lines of sonic manipulation. How fire fighters can use sound to put out fires. Stuff like that.
@@TheLoreExplorer The moon comparison I had in mind was how even a tiny modern computer has far greater processing power than the supercomputer in the Saturn V rocket. My point was that while the Nomai and the Owlks may have had very similar accomplishments within the Outer Wilds system, the Owlks were clearly performing most of their impressive feats as a very costly one-off measure to reach the Eye and then dealing with the repercussions of those costs, whereas the Nomai were performing most of their impressive feats as a very routine task - jumping to the new system, building space-warping cores (heck, Nomai society even has dedicated people whose job it is to build them, Annona in the case of Escall's clan), crafting solid stone as if it were clay, manipulating gravity itself, etc. Even the Ash Twin Project grew out of them using the White Hole Station often enough to notice the time discrepancy, and they were able to accomplish that without destroying any inhabited planets.
Oh , yeah. Im pretty sure I concede to that at the end. That yes. Nomai are clearly the more advanced species. The way I imagine them , backed up by a little lore , is literally molding their surroundings with sonic manipulation using their staff. They show up to a planet and just start making bridges or whole cities using sound. All without breaking a sweat. And they are advanced cities at that. Able not only to manipulate gravity. But also so many smaller pieces of tech I ignored in this video. But major tech for major tech , I was surprised at how long the simpler species kept up. Thats all.
@@TheLoreExplorer i dont see the nomai as that advanced, personally. when they first crashed on brittle hollow, they had to use rudimentary bridges at first, then simpler stone structures under the escape pod crash, then build the hanging city which is one of the most complex cities/areas in the game, but it took them time (years if im not wrong) to get there. same with the ember twin crash, they had to find a safe place before they built those simple stone houses.
To be fair, the Owlks' cloaking did hide The Eye and The Stranger from the Nomai basically completely (Not just the clan in our universe, but also all the others for ~300,000 years.) and can withstand a supernova at least as well as the ATP, so perhaps their cloaking technology specifically is more advanced than the Nomai's. Not to mention their super impressive simulation, which seems superior to the Nomai's potential one (They didn't know of a way to increase lifespan indefinitely.) However, it's ridiculously impressive that what we see as like 3-4 generations of Nomai were able to basically make a time machine and reinvent warp technology and all the other stuff nearly from scratch. It really speaks volumes about how advanced the Nomai clans probably were at their prime. I don't think we can be certain, but the Nomai seem more all-rounded (gravity, time-travel, memories, warping, spaceships), while the Owlks were very specialized toward cloaking and the simulation, so I agree with your conclusion. Great video.
I think I can explain what's happening with the Ash Twin statues. We already know that subatomic particles can be quantumly entangled. So, you could entangle two particles and no matter how far apart they are, whatever affects one affects the other. The most basic version of this is using quantum entanglement to send messages via binary code, with two entangled electrons as the vehicle. Further, the easiest and safest thing to send through the Ash Twin project is data. They knew that violating causality was dangerous, so instead of trying to loop a person, they used the statues to quantumly entangle the bioelectric signals in the brain. This why statues must be paired, but they can be paired to biologicals or computers. They entangle the energy, and record it. This is why you can die to enter the dream and not get immediately looped. The entangled brain energy leaves the body and enters the dream.
I was thinking about it. The Hearthians, if they'd had a long enough timeline, might have outdone the other two. They were figuring out Nomai tech and repurposing it, without even being able to understand the language. They figured it out from trial and error and hard won understanding.
Thanks for covering this I see the gap between their technology is smaller than i thought I still think the owlks are slightly less advanced, but it's mostly based on the nomais access to warp tech, which is situational, perhaps if the owlks had access to brittle hollow when the black hole was more obvious, they could have developed similar tech
But that's the point of the video "you look at Nomai and you think wow a time loop that's the best technology ever!!" But consider actively recreating a mind in a simulation, it may not look as "wowsers time travel!" To you but it's literally creating a copy of your mind in the simulation Wich is basically creating a AI that has free thought you might think it looks as cool but it definitely is ground breaking technology
@@Millticker Then again the Nomai also found a way to interface with the mind, which they use to transmit memories back in time. And in both cases the technology works on hearthians as well despite it literally being alien to them. It seems that consciousness is more of a physical thing in the Outer Wilds universe, being consistent between species somehow - which means easier methods of manipulating it probably exist. Subsequently, uploading a brain to a computer would probably be considerably simpler to pull off than in the real world.
wait couldn't nomai create a giant battery with the energy needed for the warp back and charge it very slowly? cuz that would solve all of the issues they had with the sun station
I wonder what their impressions would be, the nomai would wonder why the Owlks are so fearful, but amazed at their ring world, dreamtorches and simulations whilst the Owlks would wold think the vessel and warp cores but think they're insane for chasing the unknown and trying to blow up the sun for fun.
the owlks and the nomai had vastly different cultures, so fair comparisons of "who is more advanced" must take that into account. for example, the owlks never made enough ships to get everyone out in case of emergency because they never planned to leave. the nomai never made a cloaking device because they don't want to stay separated from other beings in the universe. etc.
Best option is to use “The Kardashev Scale” if we want to measure a civilization’s level of technological advancement. So it’s based on how they collect and maximize their use of energy. Imo, 1. Owlks were the early Type 1 civilization, since they’re able to access and use their home planet resources, but were unable to use the all the energy sources in a solar system optimally. (Since they decided to stay within their ship, instead of trying to live in other planets, which probably they didn’t have the capability or resources (or to find them optimally) to terraform). 2. The Nomai were in between the late Type 2 and early Type 3 civilization. Since well, they could use blackhole, know how to use the star (even if they failed, they did know the theory, that’s why they’re in between type 2 and 3 civilization), and pretty adaptive to a new environment even the harshest (except in dark bramble’s, since it’s basically a different concept of universe and so its laws)
Ive seen this said exatly once, but the most ompressive thing the Owlks did was figure out what the eye would do before it did it, because that means they didnt even need to use it to figure it out, because if they did, they wouldve all died, so they figured out what a thing which could do literally anything would do before it did it, just by using a vision torch on it, that alone is significantly more impressive than the cloaking field, and its nowhere near close
while watching this video I got to thinking about the Nomai statues I think that the visons with the Nomai statues are just an unintentional byproduct of the memory storage/retrieval process. sort of like the theory that dreams are just your unconscious mind going over your thoughts and feelings from the previous day and organizing and storing them, which your conscious mind sees and gets real confused and makes them into dreams. Your consciousness is being bombarded with strange inputs while you're sleeping at the start of the next loop, and the visual of your memories playing back when you first pair is your brain making sense of all the memories the statue is making you recall to copy and store them. I also think the glowing lights aren't a hallucination (being separate from your memories playing back which I think is a hallucination (meaning it's a perceived input (sight) without any apparent physical stimulus, not that you, or the player character are crazy)). when you're inside the ATP and the sun goes supernova, you can see the information flowing into the blackhole in the form of floating glowing lights, meaning that floating glowing lights are something that can exist in the Outer Wilds universe. and since no one (alive), least of all us, see a statue pairing from a third party's perspective (meaning not the statue or the pairee but someone separate), It's entirely possible that the glowing lights we see when we first pair with our statue are really there, if not tangible, then at least visible. this is something I'm sure everyone else has already thought, but in the off chance that it is an original thought, I wanted to share it.
I find that the Nomai and Owlks would complement each other very well. As far as I see them, the Nomai are more like scientists and engineers, using rational thought. Their culture "the festival" even is centered around knowledge sharing, everything embedded in their unshakable curiosity. Their character seemed to me to be focused outward, filled with curiosity. The Owlks on the other hand seem much more inward focused, on the mind and soul. They love a quiet life with music comfort, and tend to keep things to a minimum (hence a rotating station, no fancy gravity tech, only water power and sunsails, little technology at all). They might be the far better minimalists and environmentalists if they were given the same tasks as the Nomai. And their understanding of the mind was on a magical level, quite literally. The Owlks have something very shamanistic about them, it reminds me of exactly that; Shamans.
18:00 so maybe the nomai statutes aren't recording our exact perception maybe they're hooked onto our essense somehow and recording that, then playing it back to our essense
To me, they all have advanced answers to different complex scenarios. It is difficult to say who is more advanced, as it depends on the specific scenario. It would be a good comparison if they were all given the same scenario and their successful achievements were compared. This would allow us to see who is the most advanced overall.
I think in terms of intelligence both species are on par, what set their technology advancements different was their motivation. Nomais dedicated all their technology outwards to find the Eye of the Universe so they're more willing to risk experimenting with blackholes and warping; Owlks, on the other hand, dedicated all their technology inwards to preserve their lives, so they are not interested to travel but instead, experimenting with retaining their conscious and mind in Virtual Reality, and to hide from the Eye of the Universe. It's also ironic that Solanum and the prisoner were the black sheeps of their civilization but ended up becoming the only ones achieving their species' goals. Solanum reaches the eye of Universe while prisoner gets to carry on info of their civilization to the next universe (if you chose to).
An artificial ecosystem doesn't strike me as advanced at all compared to the other technologies of both species -- artificial ecosystems are something IRL humans are close to being capable of doing, while most of the other technologies in the game are very much scifi.
You say that. But the nomai flew around with tiny trees only to give them oxygen. If it were trivial I would guess the vessel would better space to live. And no. We cant really just make ecosystems on such a large scale. In fact , we cant even control the ones we have. Any one telling you we are close to terraforming mars or something is lying. If we could do that we would just terraform earth.
@@TheLoreExplorer Creating an artificial ecosystem is a substantially lesser feat than terraforming a planet. It's a matter of starting point and scale -- when building an artificial ecosystem on a space station, things like temperature and atmospheric composition are largely givens -- if those problems weren't already solved, the station in general needs work. The specific choices when making the ecosystem can alleviate or exacerbate the challenges of maintaining that, but not to a catastrophic extent. A space station or isolated biodome is also small enough that it's easier to identify and learn from problems. That small size is also why regulating temperature and atmospheric conditions is already humanly achievable in some circumstances. Even though the Stranger is a similar size in-game to the planets, I interpret that as the Stranger not needing a gameplay conceit rather than as the Stranger being planet-sized. With terraforming, you need to do a whole planet, and you need to make radical changes. There are massive challenges before you can even think about ecology. If I hear the phrase "artificial ecosystem on mars", I'm going to think of a climate-controlled dome with a careful selection of species. The dome itself is the aspect we are furthest from achieving -- it's hard in general to regulate the climate of a large space, and having the interior climate differ so much from the exterior climate is another major source of challenge. Controlling an existing ecosystem is also a greater feat than creating an artificial one. When creating, you can make choices that make things easier for yourself. When maintaining, you are stuck with what nature gave you. The best argument for humans being close to artificial ecosystems is an example of humans being close to artificial ecosystems -- the Biosphere 2 facility is a research facility studying artificial ecosystems. It looks like they had two full-isolation experiments, with the ecosystems surviving well (though not necessarily with human-friendly atmosphere) until the 10-month mark.
The stranger is on planetary scale. I dont think its as simple(which isnt simple) as making a few domes. We also dont see the Nomai really creating better and safer spaces to live on the planets they were stuck on. I guess they did a bit of bioengineering. Again with trees. But I truly think creating a self reliant , self contained , space station is advanced by almost any standard.
@@TheLoreExplorer I don't interpret the stranger as being planet-scale. Even though the in-game size of the stranger is on par with the planets, I have always interpreted the size of the planets as being a gameplay conceit, and the stranger has always felt like an escape from that -- especially since the simulation world is essentially flat, implying that it emulates a more IRL-scale body and thus that the stranger is many orders of magnitude smaller than the owlks' homeworld. The stranger feeling like it has IRL-like scaling is a major part of why I don't consider its biosphere in the same technology bracket as the other things mentioned in the video. The nomai not creating something similar is plausibly a matter of cultural difference. Both cultures are in a technology bracket where an artificial biosphere probably doesn't solve problems better than machines, meaning it would only be built if the culture saw intrinsic value in such a project. It could even be a sign of nomai advancement -- they don't seem to need biological sources of food, while the owlks might need that.
Id argue that notion simply because , as a player , we are the scale. Our ship is the scale. Our ship is tiny compared to the stranger. Its interesting though , cause youre right. It is a gameplay conceit. There are only 30 owlks because any more wouldnt convey anything. In the same way bigger planets would be pointless. And the Nomai had to live through certain danger. With the hollows lantern and what not. Id think there would be intrinsic value. Safety. Life.
Very interesting video mate. This got me thinking for awhile. I feel both the Nomais and the Owlkins were equally very advanced in their intelligence and technological comprehension to begin with. The Nomais were able to master and rationalize the quantum mechanics of time dilation to the point of sending information and memories to an active body back in time. They were able to achieve this by entangling their consciousness and memories no matter where they are. That is some Type 2 or 3 level civilisation feat. In this area, the Nomais have an upper hand. The Nomais also rebuilt themselves from scratch in a different eco-system of a planet and were able to survive. To them, scientific endeavours were a way of life rather than a hobby. They were deep problem-solvers devising ingenius ways to find the Eye of the Universe. They were capable for interstellar travel or teleport via blackholes/wormholes. In contrast, the OwlKins are a more innovative lot compared to the Nomais. The OwlKins scientific brilliance seemed to be more oriented towards virtual reality and their ability to simulate their homeworld with the blue lantern flame dynamic. Their technology also allowed them to foresee or have visions abt the future. They also seemed to be master story-tellers detailing their journey in the film rolls we find in The Stranger. While the Nomais were orthodoxically scientific and religious about the Eye of the Universe, the OwlKins seemed more contemporary in their approach to science and the Eye signal. They also were able to block out the signal as well and cloak themselves. Given this, its fair to say both were almost equal. But I would say the Nomais were slightly more advanced.
@@noizepusher7594 We don't know if the nomai discovered the crystals or invented them. Regardless, it makes a lot of sense for a species constantly traveling the cosmos looking for new discoveries to come across the crystals sooner than a species who destroyed everything they had just to go on one trip.
@@commenturthegreat2915 actually, in their interview with TLE Mobius said that Brittle Hollow was made of gravity crystals which is why there’s a black hole at the center, because the gravity crystals condensed each other together to the point that they created a black hole
The Nomai made an advanced signal locator that projects the source of the signal in real time? Big whoop. The Owlk made a god damn telescope able to not only perceive and view signals, but also have the ability to project that data directly into their minds.
well, the stranger uses solar sails as its propulsion. this is tech we currently have too. also the stranger isn't using fake gravity, centrifugal force is natural gravity compared to a device that generates artificial gravity (although it may be unfair to say that without understanding the nature of the artificial gravity)
The Nomai clans live all throughout the galaxy or even universe, while the owlks just live on their moon that they destroyed to build the stranger. The Nomai probably have amazing structures and technologies that are out there in the universe with other clans. I don't know that, but thats what I beleive anyway. Good video 👍
Thanks for actually making the video, it was thoroughly enjoyed! I think their achievements should be taken in the context of the two species, how Nomai are very curious while owlks prefer confiding in what they know or believe in. I believe that the eye was the source of Owlk religion even before the stranger was being constructed, and that their space travel technology developed with the intent of transporting their entire civilization to essentially meet god, like a pilgrimage. I think it's also important to consider what the two civilizations were exposed to in their journeys. For example, the Nomai recreated gravity manipulation through a resource that didn't exist for Owlks. The owlk's solution is equally as elegant when considering what was available to them. I initially thought that the Owlks were objectively worse off than nomai but now I think it's subjective. Also when do the lights go off in the stranger? I never saw that in my whole playthrough.
So what i think, the owlk simulation tranfers your consciousness into itself. So with your consciousness in the sim you still create memories. And the Nomai satatues dont only transfer memories, but your consciousness itself. So its not tricking the Nomai tech, its working similarly to it. The statues, when linked, could copy, store, and transfer your memories from you to the masks. What if they dont entirely do that? What if instead when linked they act as a hive mind. So they aren't actually recording your memories, they are experiencing your consciousness. If you die you have another vessal for your mind. Statues have no senses, thats why you dont perceive the rest of the loop. And at the end of the loop the mask thats also connected to the hive mind sends it through, back in time to itself and the hive mind thats linked. Now with that said, the sim moves your consciousness into itself. Unlike the statue you have your senses in the sim and therfore can still perceive it. You are not linked to it in anyway, its a temporary place to hold your mind. So the statues operate as normal. So while your body may die, your mind has not. It simply changed hosts. You are still connected to your physical body, but if thats severed you still have the hive mind connection to the ATP.
Nomais: made possible the teleportation and time travel
Owlks: made an artificial planet and an afterlife simulation
Hearthians: made an entire new universe with music
not really, the eye did all the work when observer entered it, but i get that this is a joke
Also marshmallows
@@ix67mlwe shaped the universe by going in so we kinda did make it
@@Cowboybeardie that wasn't even intentional, we were just curious what will happen, and then eye read all our memories(very rude) and made a new universe around them
@@ix67ml The eye needs a conscious observer to create a single universe out of the infinite possibilities. It needs your memories to create the new universe, or rather that is what affects the outcome.
I think its clear that the hearthians have the most advanced technology, do the nomai have marshmallows?
"no marshmallows?"
The fact that we haven't found evidence of their marshmallows doesn't mean they didn't have them!
Marshmallow that heal you instead of very lightly damaging you is a great advancement tbh
(Eating lots of Marshmallows irl won't be good for you, but for the Hearthians, it's ok)
Exactly 🤣
Ash twin was just a very big marshmallow cooked by the sun
The Nomai: We created an infinite time loop.
The Owlks: We created an Afterlife.
Both: *Bro handshake.*
Hearthians: We created marshmellows!
@@luckymankwok obviously better than what the other two species accomplished
@@blockedperfection9278 combined
@@luckymankwok but of course an eternal life without marshmallows is meaningless
The Owlks: "How'd you get in here?" *snaps Nomai's neck*
I don't know if I'll be able to get this across properly, but I think that the Nomai are technological savants, able to create new technologies with relative ease. The Owlks, on the other hand, seem to have an understanding of physics and the universe that allows them to get by without as much technological advancement. Their entire aesthetic is so wonderfully rustic and simple, they use hydro-power rather than black holes, they use the rotational energy of the stranger for gravity, and use the water for travel. It's like, the Nomai can build a flying vehicle to get you from point A to point B, while the Owlks can use a ramp to get the same, or at least a similar, result; two wildly different ways of reaching the same conclusion.
All that aside, it didn't take very long at all for me to fall in love with BOTH of these tiny civilizations, and the differences in their tech and culture are incredible, no matter which one is smarter or more practical.
But consider the simulations the Nomai don't have nearly enough advanced tech to send their conscious into a simulation they don't even have simulations or screens.
@@Millticker A good point! However, the simulations and the Nomai's ability to send memories back in time, while very different, still have a remarkably similar effect in the long run.
Maybe this is more of a narative point than a technological one, the simulations and the Time Travel Lite (TM) that was created by the Nomai are both rather crude forms of immortality. The Owlks bypassed death for eons through their simulations, keeping the brain active without the need for the body, while the Nomai allowed the perpetuation of consciousness by sending memories and experiences back in time.
It's not exactly like comparing apples to oranges here, but it is another example of two wildly different peoples creating two wildly different methods of reaching comparable results.
@@groverwatch2171 I'd say it's the difference between taking time and using time. The Olwks locked themselves away forever and will happily stay in that dream for eternity, while nomai only want to reuse the same 22 minutes, meaning other than their memories no time would have elapsed at all
@@more-reasons6655 Another way of looking at it is the Olwks want to use their time for a dream like state, whereas the Nomai devise a way to use their time as a way to discover as much about reality as possible.
@@Millticker I feel like The Nomai could do that if they wanted to. They were a nomadic species so in my opinion they would have the belief that nothing should last forever, Maybe not even their consciousness. They could easily take over the entire universe if they wanted to. But they go somewhere learn for a while and move on.
Nomai: scientists, engineers
Owlks: landscape architects, software developers
Owlk tech support?
@@eliasrobinson3915 "Have you tried waking up and falling back asleep again?"
@@cinfdefI love that joke 😂
@@cinfdef i get this joke too good :D
@@cinfdef "I can't, my body has died."
The truly impressive thing about the Ash Twin project is that they forged something that could survive a supernova for at least a few seconds
To be fair, supernova in our world is not a devastating blast, rather rapid expansion of solar plasma. The more the plasma expands, the less dense it becomes. But the things, that make it "dangerous", are intense radiation in all wave lengths (including thermal) and sudden "appearance" of the "atmosphere-like" environment in space. It is this "atmosphere" that will create a "air drag" for inner planets, that will gradually slow them down into remnants of the Sun. Not only that, a medium like that would make a great heat conductor, rapidly heating objects it surrounds.
Hypothetically, it would be possible to make some thermo resistant shelter even with our technologies.
I personally think that the impressive part is that it WORKED.... WITHOUT TESTING.
It's easy to test the statue, one second back in time is enough and can be done with the Sunless City's power alone. But they had no way of being absolutely sure the nova would generate 22min of power (any less would render the loop useless), nor that the bunker would last long enough.
To be fair, that was just luck with the ore available on Hearth. They didn't seem to actually do anything to it.
@@reflectingPastChoicesWhy would anything less than 22 minutes render the loop useless? I get they probably calculated some time needed to effectively allow the probe to reach the eye, but a loop of 20 minutes is still pretty damn incredible and useful.
@@LilJbm1 Because the probe needs 22 minutes to reach the end of the star system. If the loop is but a SINGLE minute shorter, it will either
- reset to after the canon already fired
- not give the probe enough time to reach the eye
In both cases, the loop would be useless. The Nomai calculated 22min because that's how much they *needed*, not how much was available.
One thing to remember when comparing the ships, is that while it's really cool that the owlk ship had a whole biosphere, the whole reason it has to have a biosphere is because it was slow. It physically traveled the massive distance between the star systems, so the owlk had to prepare it for a long journey. It may have even been a generation ship for all we know
On the other hand, the Vessel didn't need to contain an entire world within it, it could travel instantly so the nomaii would never be without a world for any extended period of time.
They're both impressive space ships, but when it comes to actually traveling through space, the Owlk are embarrassingly behind
I disagree. Imo it doesnt much matter why they did things. And I even admit I think the Nomai probably could built something very similar if they wanted. Its still something way more impressive that the owlks have. That the nomai dont.
I also dont note that the nomai also have trees on their vessel that supply them with oxygen. And I wouldnt be surprised if they ate whatever grew on them. Even if they were just leaves. So they do have some renewing resources as well. But imo thats nothing compared to an entire biosphere working together.
Another thing to remember is the warp technology the Nomai use is basically a natural phenomenon. The only thing they really did was capture , suppress, and be able to call upon a black hole. Which are just warped spacetime. And while that takes an impressive understanding of the universe. The things that would make that feat mostly impressive have been taken away. When the black holes dont exhibit their usual tough things to deal with. Like we can safely get near to and enter them.(no spaghettification) And they dont grow to make any issues bigger. And even when we enter them we immediately get expelled somewhere else. Almost everything that makes black holes dangerous or impressive to conquer have been stripped.
agreed, but the vessel is essentially where the Nomai live, or something like that.
@@TheLoreExplorer The Kardashev scale would disagree that a ringworld is as impressive as you make out, compared to harnessing the power of a black hole and creating a stable, orbital station in the photosphere of a star in which people can live and work. Not to mention instantaneous travel between two set points in spacetime. And not only that, but recreating that tech from remains of your own civilisation after losing the majority of said technology.
Your video is fun, but you're very clearly lacking a LOT of relevant knowledge of context within the topic.
@@oxymoron02 Agreed. He's obviously excited, but I was skeptical when he said the Sun Station had to somehow resist the pull of the sun (demonstrating a lack of understanding of orbital mechanics), and outright stopped watching when he said the Stranger is more advanced than the Vessel just because it's bigger.
Damn, you guys are being rude. Keep it mind that he is the one producing a video, writing a script, editing, etc while you're just watching and passing by. By doing so, next time you need to voice any (rightful) criticism it will come out a lot more nicer
I feel like one big point you missed for the owlks is that they went to the eye of the universe, the beginning, life, and end of everything, and completely blocked off every signal it emits. That has got to be one of, if not the most advanced pieces of technology ever created. They made the universal reset button nearly inaccessible, and it was only stopped when a member of their own species turned it off. Otherwise, the eye would be lost until the end of time. I think the ability to stop a new universe from ever being created again is pretty powerful.
That’s the same thing as their cloaking device though. I do say how I can’t state enough how advanced being able to block every signal in the universe is.
@@TheLoreExplorer Oh I'm not saying that you ignored it. I'm just saying that i feel like there is a huge difference between blocking their ship, and blocking the origin of it all. I still have to agree with some of your other points though, especially since the nomai were just growing and started from nothing not long ago. No hate
What I find interesting is even signals we wouldnt think of as light , like radio signals, are just a wavelength of light. Same can be said about the eyes signal. Its just light. And since the owlks had mastered light. In most senses , the eye is just another planet to them. I focused on the stranger because it would produce many signals. And have to record many others from space. While the eye signal blocker would only block 1. So its sort of like 1 signal vs many. But if you want to put special stock in the eyes signal specifically I can see whyd youd say this. It has to be special in some way for both the owlks and nomai to react the way they did. But the nomai being able to pick it up sort of hints at it being a more common signal.
@@TheLoreExplorer I see what you are saying. I guess it does have to be an already widely-known kind of signal for the Nomai and Owlks to have just stumbled upon it randomly. I'm gonna have to agree with your points in the video then. I was just initially holding the Eye's signals to a higher complexity than other signals, such as those of the stranger, but I can see how it is all similar then
@@TheLoreExplorer A real life parallel would be us suddenly receiving an orderly radio transmission from space, perhaps with an unusually long wavelength. This could tell us that an alien intelligence exists, and would make sense if the signal is extremely old - having experienced the full expansion of the universe and being stretching significantly. If it's really "older than the universe", I'd imagine we could find reflections of it embedded in the CMB, bouncing all around us. And if we had to devote our resources to research one thing in the universe, it would probably be the source of that signal.
If it's actually radio waves that the eye emits (which makes sense since the signal scope can pick it up), then someone capable of fully masking visible light would probably find masking lower frequencies to be trivial.
Though physics in Outer Wilds is kind of weird sometimes, so we don't know what kind of signal the eye actually transmits.
It makes sense when you say the owlk simulation captures your entire "essence" because your brain dies, but as the Nomai statues continue recording despite you dying to enter the simulation, it proves that they're not recording your brainwaves either and are also recording the same "essence" (whatever that may be - extrabodily consciousness essentially, your conscious experience isn't tied to your brain).
I was thinking pretty much the same thing earlier today
I don't like to think about this complicated technologies as some magical devices that can capture a soul. I think it is pretty clear what is going on
The device is triggered when you fall asleep. It records your memory and puts it inside a simulation. It also maintains the connection to your irl senses so that you can wake up from a bell or outside danger of any kind. And it is fair to assume that it actively returns new obtained information from the simulation to your brain so that if the connection is suddenly broken, your real brain will remember everything.
Dying is very simular to falling asleep. The device is fast enough to record your memory before you die completely. It fails to mentain the connection to irl body ofc, but your memory is already inside a simulation before you die.
Ash twin project does basically the same thing, only difference is they somehow can record your memory at a great distance. Your brain produces EM waves and though the intensity is miniscule, the signal still travels at the speed of light. Nomai statues may be sensitive enough to capture the signal and actively record your memory. If you die before entering a simulation, the device may produce simular signals while trying to connect to irl body, that is why it is still recorded by the statues. Or it's just a game mechanics
@@stevengucum I agree. Evidently the owlk simulation is wireless, so it probably receives and transmits brain waves via EM fields of some kind. The nomai statues might use the same type of field to record memories. When you die while in the simulation, the device will still try to send your waves back to your now deceased body, and the statues might be able to pick up that signal.
@@stevengucumyeah except that technology doesn’t make sense and isn’t possible. The closest explanation is a soul, which isn’t too unrealistic if you want to think about it from the perspective of a universe that has macroquantum superposition mechanics. You can’t exactly record memories from a distance, the brain doesn’t leave signals like that. So even then, the technology the nomai use isn’t any less magical.
@@zzodysseuszz you can record brain waves, so it's scientifically possible that a society with generations of deep physics knowledge (like the nomai) could record them from afar. if the owlk dream technology was created to record the EM waves your brain produces, like @stevengucum said, that would be less magical and more scientific.
it can be magical in your headcannon if you want, but i think explanations like these are way more fun/less annoying
The fact that the owlks built 2 out of 3 simulation fires over water or in an area susceptible to floods bothers me... They clearly knew they would live in the simulation after their bodies died, why take the risk of them being flooded?
I wonder if the power outtage and degredation would eventually cause the computers(?) that host the simulation to fail, thus killing everyone anyway?
The point is, they never thought in long term.
Their home planet was like that. I guess they made it as realistic as possible despite the risk...
Exhibit A: They destroyed their home for a mission, that may not even have been worth it, as they could have possibly never even made it there to begin with.
Exhibit B: The stranger had minor "power issues" that could have very much have shut down the simulation in its entirety.
Come up with other evidences of why they didn't think in the long term.
Susceptible to flooding isnt really the right term. Its built on stilts so that if it does flood. Nothing would get wet that shouldnt. The dam breaking is sort of an extreme scenario. Its shown they did plan ahead to a certain extent. They made it so their ship was looking for signs of the suns expansion. So the ship would fly away when they were in danger.
They just didnt expect one of their largest structures to fail. But yes. It would have made sense for them to put them all above a static "water level". But tbh there was little reason to expect turning on the ships acceleration should even hurt the dam. Its such a slow acceleration that it shouldnt cause too much extra stress.
The owlks I think just didn't really care about tech, they were only motivated after seeing some crazy stuff. They didn't have the curiosity of the nomai
Owlk = driven by fear, nomai = driven by curiosity. I know which one I think is more scientific and "advanced".
@@SpencerfromEarth The funny thing is that there is just as much universe within the mind as there is outside in space. The Owlks understood this, but were also vulnerable to it, just like the Nomai were vulnerable to hostile space. The Owlks understanding of the soul or "software" is not to be scoffed at.
Thats what im saying thats not really fair we never even get to see some of their technology like the spaceships inside the landing dock
@@SpencerfromEarth the owlk. If you think science has been about curiosity then you are naive. Our greatest inventions such as nuclear energy, were done so out of fear.
@@SpencerfromEarth Well, don't you think that the fear of your entire universe being destroyed is a reasonable one? And a thing you cannot ignore is that they destroyed their entire home moon to build this spacecraft that is a planet on its own, just to get to the Eye and see what it is, because they were amazed by it. That is just as crazy, if not more, as the Nomai warping to a new location on a whim because they caught an interesting signal. It is wrong to same that the Owlks were scared creatures.
The Owlks were still beyond my expectation for a DLC lore. I was predicting a new planet with about as much depth as Brittle Hollow, never thought we'd see a new specie introduced, let alone a type 1 civilisation; and seemingly completely different to the Nomaii! Very nice surprise, overall.
Nomai advanced in studiying universal physics and owlks advanced in understanding their own mind
Different species, different technology, different goals
Yeah....thats a given. Inherent to them not being the same people. Im not quite sure what thats supposed to detract or add to the discussion though.
@@TheLoreExplorer i meant to say like they were advanced in very different scientific fields so its kind of unfair to compare them like that (the video was amazing tho)
@@gabyyyyyyyyy this is just the apples to oranges argument, which i think doesnt make sense. Of course you can compare apples to oranges. Just because its a different thing doesnt mean one isnt still better at their thing than the other. If we were to take an average golf player and put them up against michael jordan and ask who is the better athlete, you arent gonna say "they play different sports so its an unfair comparison"
@@elididde3377 Put up tiger woods against michael jordan. You'd understand the argument then.
@hijo5966 it becomes harder but you can still compare them😭😭
Nomai 100%. Just because nothing can top literally building a time machine, let alone everything else they accomplished!
yup
Try uploading a brain actively to a simulation, storing it there and actively sending memories to and from the body, while containing it in a flame and device. Also they didn't even need the bodies that means it copied you brain and put it in a simulation Wich is the same as creating a extremely advanced AI
@@Millticker time travel literally breaks the fabric of space time if done improperly how is that any more complicated
@@Millticker The Nomai managed to send and imprint memories across time and space, which is like putting someone in a simulation, but probably way harder
@@Millticker Mind uploading is putting electrical neurons from flesh into new metal stuff.
Time travel is literally punching a hole in reality, and breaking physics as well as transferring a mind back in time.
I would say that, even if the Owlks _were_ more advanced than the Nomai, that would shortly change if the two were to ever meet. The Nomai have shown themselves to be highly adaptable, crash-landing in a variety of hostile environments, and yet shortly after were not just surviving in those enviroments, but thriving. They built cities over a black hole, under a moon that spewed meteors, and inside a planet that's more sand than ground. I can't see the Owlk's surviving in any of those environments, not nearly so well, if at all. The Nomai seem to rise to any given challenge, enjoying new problems to solve, opportunities to use their technology in creative ways to adapt and overcome the obstacles in their way. In fact the seemingly insurmountable challenge of the Eye was even leading the Nomai to ever more reckless behavior, pushing them beyond their previous limits into a state of mind that barely blinked at the idea of blowing up the sun in a localized time loop in order to power a quantum probe launcher, as opposed to just, you know, sending out a bunch of probes. I would say the Hearthian Nomai were becoming something different from their wandering brethren, being taunted by the knowledge that the Eye, the answer to all their questions, was so close, yet so far. I doubt the Nomai would respond any less dramatically to meeting a more advanced species.
Additionally, whereas the Nomai integrated with their obstacles, literally living with the danger, the Owlks used technology to isolate themselves from the outside world and all the danger it carried. Honestly the different ways in which the two civilization approach technology is worth a video in and of itself. But as for the question of which is more advanced, it's hard to say, but I can say that the Nomai would be overjoyed to meet a species more advanced than themselves, whereas the Owlks would be terrified. Both would probably rise to meet the challenge, but the Nomai's track record on that front is undoubtedly more accomplished.
That's a great explanation, very well sums up how both species operate. One note I'd like to add is that I don't think that neither species would be hostile towards the other if they ever met, but especially the Nomai. They would be curious to understand and learn from the Owlks, and the Owlks would probably prefer to be left alone and try their best to hide their existence from the Nomai.
@@RedeemerNDestroyer I doubt it, the Owlks would definitely be antagonistic initially upon gleaming that the Nomai's goals are to find the Eye. They might either become doubly apprehensive and confrontational, or if wise enough, project their own visions of the Eye to their minds to dissuade their curiosity.
I think the differences in personality alone clearly show the nomai are more advanced/intelligent. The owlks are ruled by fear, as the prisoner states and all their actions show. The nomai are ruled by curiosity. It's clear to me which is more desirable for a scientist.
Thats not even fair the nomai we around 100 of thousands of years after the owleks so im sure they had more advanced technology by then
You’re basing that off nothing. There’s nothing to suggest that they couldn’t survive or thrive on those planets and the nomai spent years settling on those planets.
Both are capable of making super structures, for certain. The stranger and the vessel indicates that.
They are both also capable of storing MASSIVE amounts of data, the statues and the simulation show that.
However, while the light tech of the owlks is impressive, we humans have similar technology already in all degrees. The owlks seem to simply be more efficient at it.
Thats where the nomai start beating them in the tech race.
The nomai have warp travel on micro and macro scales, matter manulipation, gravity creation/control via those crystals, cryostasis in the escape pods,
And are capable of SPLITTING A BLACKHOLE INTO PARTS.
And somehow faster-than-light information travel WITHOUT black hole tech, given the hologram-like communication pads between planets.
The owlks had to make a generation ship to travel between the systems due to a lack of warp travel, as they had no cryostasis of their own to preserve their bodies. If that were the case their bodies would still be alive even in the simulation.
They also have a lack of gravity control, which is why their station spins to make a fake-gravity.
They dont have any kind of matter manulipation as they were seen time and time again building things with their hands.
Their highest form of tech would be their simulation and their cloaking technology, the latter which is simply a basic hologram that only works against a black sky.
And their simulation has already been matched by the nomai, because of their memory storage statues. Both the sim and the statue has to copy and store a ENTIRE BRAIN.
Everything the owlks can and has done, the nomai has done far better.
The owlks werent even a space faring race when they found the eye, the hearthians are technically further along in their socialital development than the owlks, despite the nomai's interaction which would break star trek's prime directive.
i just want to add that even if the owlks had artificial gravity, they would probably still build a rotating ship because it creates natural rivers which are clearly important to their culture (from the slideshows we see of them) and otherwise simulates their home moon better which they were clearly very fond of. also we have no idea about the speed of transmission of those nomai projection pools since the star system is relatively small, and we honestly don't even know the speed of light in that universe. the light tech of the owlks also seems to provide an infinite energy source as the kinetic energy you get from using a flashlight on them greatly outweighs the energy used for activating them. i still agree that the nomai have more going for them but honestly it seems like the owlks at some point were extremely into science as well but took a very different approach to it compared to the nomai, leading to very different discoveries. then at some point, for some reason they decided to just settle and focus on their culture more rather than pursuing science (until discovering the eye)
I feel it’s very unfair to just call the cloak a hologram, it’s much more than that. Not only can it block signals, but it can also perfectly display a replica of the solar system from all angles. The only reason it didn’t project the sun is because it needs the sun as a power source and projecting the suns light back out of the hologram would waste all of that power. Now, back to the signal blocking tech. I’d say it’s fairly impressive that they were able to block the signal of a literal space god perfectly
How is storing memories on par or better than simulating a consciousness? The Nomai were only able to store information, not simulate it. Being able to simulate planet/moon nearly 1:1 is an amazing feat that the Owlks were able to create such a short amount of time.
There's pretty strong evidence showing that the Owlks were capable of space flight. Not only were they able to create a huge space station that can travel between stars strongly suggests that they knew what they were doing. There's also a handful of spaceships inside the stranger. The Nomai can't even travel between stars without warping, and the Nomai in the Outer Wilds system can only warp to white holes they created.
@@noizepusher7594 alright admittedly i forgot about the signal blocker.
Something that advanced is indeed impressive, but at the same time it could be simply using the same frequency, amplitude and pitch of the eye's signal, but inversed so the two signals cancel eachother out. I remember THAT from middle school, constructive and destructive waves, increasing/decreasing the strength of a wave. Could be the same concept.
@@Em_B a consciousness is formed from a series of memories. Keep that in mind.
While storing memories is one thing, its being able to store them live as they happen which is the part that is on par with the simulation. That amount of data processing is incredible, not to mention being able to do it remotely, wirelessly, across the whole system.
While the owlks were capable of space flight, they did it in a rush, and as i said before, did it in a generation ship to span the many many many many years to more than likely took them to get from their system to the eye's system. Their smaller ships look more like outside maintence ships, but that part is unconfirmed.
I think Stranger (and small space ships) use solar wind to travel. And their main source of energy is a light/solar energy. I mean, everything inside works on a light energy. You are even pushing a boat via light energy
Solar sail technology can even explain why the dam broke. Our star started to expand too fast, producing too much energy and pushed the Stranger a little bit stronger than expected
Wow
And also the solar sail kinda seems like the same emerald green as the devices used to power stuff with light
The Nomai literally figured out how to send information back in time. That’s way more advanced than anything the Owlks did. I feel like humans are less than 100 years away from basically recreating everything the Owlks did.
Before I watch the video, I just wanna say, I dont think its a matter of who is more advanced, just that both species have different desires. The nomai very well could have made advanced simulations, but they didn't have a reason to. The Owlks maybe could have developed inscription tech as advanced as the nomai, but they had their telepathy staffs.
Personally I think the Nomai wouldn't even care. Solanum sees the player and their primitive junk equipment and doesn't care, instead just seeming fascinated by our existence
The argument that "the Nomai at their lowest are -at worse - equal to the Strangers at their peak" makes a good point.
It's obvious that lost of tech has been lost (stone houses vs metal vessel is indicative of that) and yet they were a thriving civilization until the Interloper arrived.
Meanwhile, the Strangers were very clearly on the decline.
Wait I just realized at 2:14 that the vessel has 5 arms, 2 of which have something attached that looks an awful lot like the escape pods... that means there's probably a bunch of nomai that couldn't escape the vessel due to some complications, and assuming the amount of space on all pods combined equals the number of nomai on the vessel, 40% died on the vessel while another 20% died just outside. Only 40% of the nomai that were on the vessel made it out safely. That must've been very depressing
"and assuming the amount of space on all pods combined equals the number of nomai on the vessel"
That actually seems like a really bad idea. If the Vessel gets damaged badly enough that it needs to be abandoned, it seems like a fair assumption that some of the pods might get damaged or destroyed as well. That's why I always assumed that the 2 unlaunched pods were extras, added for the sake of redundancy so that even if the Vessel were to lose two pods, the entire crew can still evacuate in the remaining three.
Then again, there's a lot of Nomai skeletons in and near the Vessel, especially around the hull breach. Maybe at least one of the two unlaunched pods ended up left behind because the Nomai that would've taken it were dead.
Most likely, the Vessel had more pods than inhabitants. After all, population tends to increase over time and a crash could damage some pods.
@@generalrubbish9513Speaking of which, Hearthians might just be really advanced in life-sustaining technologies in a way. Feldspar’s “emergency tree seeds” seem to have worked pretty well for them and there is little rush to get out of Dark Bramble while being stranded is a death sentence to Nomai. Is it because Feldspar has a fish body for some nutrition?
Owlks: Strange technology with abilities even they didn't fully consider.
Nomai: Intune with physics and capable of using it in their base technology, but have certain issues with other details.
Hearthians: Capable of constructing highly manueverable ships out of wood and random crap, as well as managing to translate another language.
I feel like if the nomai wanted to do the things the owlks did they could have done in half the time
And not destroyed everything they held to be important in the process
The Nomai and Owlks are much like Dwarves and Elves in more classic fantasy. The Nomai are industrious and their technology is a lot of rocks and runes. But the Owlks use light and wood, their tech seems almost organic at times.
I feel that you can easily tell the nomad are more advanced, given that their transmissions discuss moving through multiple galaxies, whereas the owlks had to remove all the resources from their home moon to travel a distance of a few solar systems.
It's less they NEEDED to, and more they believed in the discovery of the Eye so much they were willing to sacrifice everything to pursue it. We also have no real idea how long they traveled. The Stranger is obviously intended as a GENERATIONAL ship. They'd have entire populations be born, live, and die on it on their way to the Eye.
The distance depicted was obviously presented as shorter for the sake of storytelling, as the information was conveyed to you by their slide reel, and obviously not 100% accurate.
The Owlks also seem to desire much more humble and traditional lifestyles normally. They're content to live at home, next to the river, and live peaceful lives enjoying music, slideshows, stargazing, and river rafting.
@@Null_Experis But apparently they’re afraid of death. So much so that the rest of their existence after they learn they‘ll die is spent attempting to do everything to escape from it. That’s why I’m for the Nomai
@@redtro8678 The owlks are afraid of death is just a natural feeling. They can become much older, but are slower in reproducing. They lost everything they had + their homeplanet. They found the eye but feared THE end. So thats why they died irl, to live endlessly in the sim. So they technically didnt fear death, they feared the end of everything
I love your vids man! I love how deep you go into the lore and I can tell you like doing it too!
Lore Explorer, your depth and passion is so wonderful. One day I CANNOT WAIT to see you explore another game so heavily, to see you fall in love with the lore of more games! You effin got 14k subscribers with ONE GAME rofl. Bruh. Legendary achievement unlocked. That's incredible, man. There's not much like this game, I know, but if you find a game worth anything close, your reputation alone will have me watching every vid.
What other favorite games do you have? What games led you here? What are your influences?
I too love your work, LE.
And I think you're right. The Owlks are amazing, but not on the same level as the nomai. Now this could be explained by saying the Owlks had different desires in technological pursuit, but the sheer number of things the Nomai created without needing to devastate the planets they were inhabiting speaks for itself.
They didn't devastate the moon they simply moved it
It was established that Owlk culture was naturally more fearful, and not only that, but the burning of knowledge definitely would contribute to harming advancement.
They didn't really burn knowledge. They burned physical knowledge, but they digitised it. It makes sense.
@@zachrabaznaz7687 True, but they still forbade it.
they weren't fearful, they destroyed their only home to travel to a completely different star system. They only grew fearful because they learned that the eye of the universe would actually kill them, which was true. So it was more out of anger and spite, since the Eye brought so much hope to them, only to seemingly betray them after they sacrificed everything
@@Em_B I suppose that's true, maybe it's more like the vague nature of their premonition caused them to develop a more fearful culture. They only saw the death and paid no attention to the grass that sprouted, and they felt betrayed. Although, I think it's interesting to note that the Nomai didn't really get to understand the purpose of the eye other than it's age and as the origin of quantum items, whereas the true nature of the eye (death and rebirth?) was illustrated to the Owlks. But it seems they misunderstood the vision.
I think that, If the owls had advanced in technology instead of locking them selfs in a simulation, they will be ahead of the nomai in technology
I doubt it very much... because at the same time they would advance, the Nomais would too.
And you need to remember that Nomais live in clans. Each clan having its own mothership and knowledge... Which are shared among all other clans in a commemorative event.
All this makes the level of learning and evolution of this species far superior to that of our strange friends here.
Not to mention that during the game we only had contact with one of the Nomai clans (still isolated)... Who knows what the others might know?
True, if the only population of Owlks to exist only lived on the Stranger, there will be less innovation simply by nature of there being less innovators. It doesnt help that they were willing to burn and ban knowledge as well.
@@K-J-A one of the nomai clans from over 200 thousand years ago, we see on the vessel that it's still receiving communications from existing nomai clans, who knows how much further their technology has advanced in that time period
@@niox1920 and to think that they all died in the end... preventing us from knowing their stories, dreams and accomplishments...
F
the only piece of tech that didn't worked for the nomai was the part where they tried to blow up the sun
And I don't think anyone believes they wouldn't have found a way to do it. They just didn't get to.
Poke and Pye took a break to explore the fancy new comet that just arrived and....
I'd say mere days passed between the logs at the Sun Station and the ones at the Interloper.
I think it's interesting because the main advantage that the Nomai have over the Owlks is simply in their nature. This is shown very well thematically in game, but both species are probably equally intelligent, but the Nomai are practically fearless in the face of a cold, unfeeling universe and the Owlks are the exact opposite. All the Owlk advancements were in the service of safety. They destroyed their home so they could arrive at the Eye in style and proceeded to live just as luxuriously in their simulation once they realized the Eye could destroy the universe. They feared it, and in that exact moment stopped advancing altogether, instead retreating into their simulation, their faux home that they wish they could return to.
The Nomai had it far worse than the Owlks ever did, marooned in a foreign solar system, no means of finding the Eye once the signal was censored, and utterly void of many of the things that helped them advance as a species in the first place. But that didn't stop them even slightly. They rebuilt and unwaveringly went forth to find the Eye or die trying. I bet if they knew that observing the Eye would destroy the universe they would find the idea fascinating instead of terrifying.
That is the main difference between the two, and the way the game portrays that mostly subtextually is brilliant
Wait,
So I just had a thought
The projection of the Nomai technology, being able to observe a location from another area,
Is that not kind of similar to the simulation?
Your body is being perfectly recreated somewhere else, and your mind is active in that clone rather than you.
Only the Nomai technology is doing it physically rather than digitally, even though there’s definitely some digital information being passed along there.
It’s a weird comparison given the difference in application and the limitations on each,
But the idea of recreating you and putting you elsewhere is there in each.
The nomai projection pools appear to be the same tech as the liquid metal pools in the gravity cannon modules. It’s basically like T-1000 terminators but without the ability to control color. So yes, they should have the ability to simulate minds even though they haven’t done so. Maybe they consider simulations a waste of time because they can’t be physically productive there.
@@J7Handle Theoretically speaking, the entirety of the Ash Twin Loop (Probe->Ash Twin -> Probe) is basically an attempt to gather information from the future by simulating a loop that never happens. They just happen to be using Analog rather than Digital methods.
@@zachrabaznaz7687 You could call it a simulation, but it's hijacking the universe itself as the simulator.
@@J7Handle exactly
That would be like calling a livestream a simulation. It's projecting it, not simulating it
Wait, the right slot _lands_ the shuttle? I thought it just kinda spun around, I didn't realize it actually made a _landing_.
Also, my favorite observation is that every single thing ATP was trying to do worked. The only thing the Nomai failed to do was turn it on, and that's only because they tried one thing and then got removed from the solar system by a comet with a vendetta before they had the opportunity to try something else.
I think you're spot on, particularly with one specific point - the Nomai had their progressive mindset until the end, they were living to progress their society and knowledge no matter what, and the society we saw died out spontaneously to a tragedy, while the Owlks as a society (while I don't think this means that the species is *inherently* regressive), ended up shunning what they feared and did not understand, and locked themselves and their whole society away in their dreams, and they kept their whole planet together, censored, hiding away knowledge, while the nomai had a culture of all the different clans exploring the universe and learning anything no matter what
And in the end, the seed the Nomai planted ended up leading the Hearthians to their own expeditions and knowledge, and our own Hatchling leading the way into the end of the universe
But, all of this was because of the seed planted by one, rebellious, curious, Owlk
and I think that's kind of an optimistic message for the game to have, yaknow
We do know what method of propulsion the stranger has. It’s green so it’s probably the same technology the rafts use when you shine light on them. It’s a solar sail.
The Nomai are explorers. They're extremely curious and have an intense desire to learn, explore, experiment, and invent. Like the Prisoner, I can't see them wanting to live in a simulation, there wouldn't be anything new to discover or learn about. I don't think it's a tech they'd have a reason to develop. The Owlk on the other hand don't really seem to incorporate much tech into their daily lives, and don't seem too inclined to leave their ship, they don't strike me as having an innate desire to explore. They chased down the Eye just like the Nomai, sure, but instead of just building a smaller ship to check it out, they basically took their whole population AND their entire home planet with them, and when that wasn't up to snuff, they built a simulation that was even more like their original home INSIDE the ship. They seemed pretty content to live in their simulation, living their same lives, never seeing or learning anything new, except for the Prisoner. And we saw how that went down. Instead of trying to learn more about the Eye like the Nomai, they burned the temple and then launched a weapon that sealed off the Eye entirely, where the Nomai just kept trying to reach the Eye and learn more and more about it.
I didn't know what the third button on the Nomai shuttle did. Bahaha.
I don’t think it’s fair to say they weren’t able to make the Ash Twin project work. It works! We see that it works, loop after loop after loop! It’s the Sun Station that didn’t work. The Ash Twin project’s goals were to A) send information backwards in time by 22 minutes, B) trigger the launch of the probe into deep space so C) they could eventually find the Eye of the Universe. That all WORKED. That is the metric of success, not detonating the Sun. Just because they’re a little late doesn’t mean it didn’t work.
*Too long, dont want to read -. In the most technical sense. Youre right. The atp functions. But not as intended and the intended goal technically wasnt reached
In the most technical sense...I suppose. But
I guess my best example would be a fire arm. If I built a fire arm and the hammer didnt work. And I tried 100 times to fire a bullet. Yet nothing ever came out because the hammer never ignited the powder. Then , 20 years later , the gunpowder goes unstable and ignites on its own and the bullet fires. Its not like the fire arm I built works. Ya know?(some leniency on how fire arms work for arguments sake)
And I could also argue on a literal basis. "Their goals were to build a machine that would send info back in time, trigger the probe , and let them find the eye". Ok. Then they failed. They never found the eye. Sadly they perish before this happens And based off their words. Nothing they could conceiver of would change this. The entire point wasnt just to find the eye, It was to do so almost instantaneously(from their perspective). And in this sense , and many others , they failed.
They didnt have a backup plan on how to power the atp.
This would also sort of , kind of(but not entirely) , be like scientists claiming we successfully built a warp drive. Or sci fi rail gun(that shoots electricity). We just need the power to actually realize it. Since making energy fields should theoretically bend space around a ship to propel it forward. There is a ton of stuff that we know could work. We could(and almost certainly have) built. But if the energy or power isnt there , on call , it doesnt work irl.
@@TheLoreExplorer I guess it depends on what you define as success. I would classify the Ash Twin Project as a success because, to me, the mechanism that Is the Ash twin project worked. Soundly so. To use your example of the gun going off, I don't think it's like the gunpowder randomly getting unstable, because even if it somehow did that it wouldn't fire in a way that would perform the intended function.
The Ash twin Project works. It does Exactly as it meant to when given the power necessary to make things function. A more accurate way to put it wouldn't be if the hammer on a gun didn't work, but if the bullet wasn't in the gun. It still shoots the bullet, it still makes a hole in the wall. But the gun maker died before they could load it, or couldn't somehow make a proper bullet for it. Is the gun still a failure if it can fire rounds but is never loaded? Or if the bullet itself is never made properly?
I would say it is not, since the gun does as it is intended to do by the creator. But that is what I believe.
Well, the Owlks made their simulation not for the pursuit of knowledge, but to spend their whole existence there.
The Nomais wouldn't need that, they would see no interest in living in a simulation, so they did not even tried.
I think the Nomais are definitely more advanced, maybe they are not as advanced as the Owlks in specific fields but not because they couldn't but because they did not try.
I think we may be a bit fooled when we think of the Owlks as more primitive than the Nomai, or at least an older civilization. I mean, yeah, the Owlks found The Eye long before the Nomai did, but for all we know, the Nomai may still be an infinitely more ancient species that the Owlks.
It's difficult to say, in the end of EOTE we learn that it has been many generations since the owlks died off before the nomai intercepted the Eyes signal
And we know only one group of Nomai are known to have found the signal (the clan in the hearthian system) because every nomai clan share their findings every ten years so if any nomai existed before the Owlks they would have intercepted the original signal from the Eye
I think owls are more like us humans. They have pretty brutal engineering, but their electronics are much more advanced. They're basically hearthiang but depressed and without the marshmallows.
18:00 or its the other way around, despite the hatchling's death, the statue are still able to record the memories even though its inside the simulation.
I think that something to think about is the fact that the Owlks got here first, as well as the fact that they had such advanced technology for as much as they seemed to be more laid back. Just saying, if the Owlks had as much curiosity and drive as the Nomai, I personally think that they would outpace them any day.
Gang hear me out- in order for the Ash Twin project to send your memories back in time, it must have had to have had a near-complete scan of your mind. The Owlks simulation does something similar, if not the same thing. The data is just used in a different way. In fact, we can tell that the science they use has to be VERY similar as even when you die to enter a simulation the Ash Twin project still records your mind, with minimal interference. This interference could also be connected to the Strangers cloaking, but that's not a given. I believe that Nomai could create their own simulation with minimal effort, its simply that wasn't what they were trying to accomplish. The Owlks, on the other hand, would have had to do much more research to replicate the Project, as they lack the scientific scope the nomai do. In the defence of the owlks, though, we are led to believe they intentionally restrained themselves to one world and of course haven't been applying themselves to advancing while in the simulation, which gives the nomai a bit of a unfair advantage as there whole deal is scouring the universe for knowledge. Its impossible to know where the owlks would be right now if they hadn't stagnated, but that's beside the point.
From one of the other talks, the propulsion of the stranger seems to have been figured out. It's the green stuff. When light hits it, it moves away from it. The huge panels of it in the center of the ship on the sides, work as solar sails. It ain't warp, but it is impressive.
As someone who studies sciences I think it's more complicated than a simple scale of advancement. Think about it this way, is a biologist less advanced than a weapons engineer because they never built a tank? The Nomai and the Owlks each studied the eye and each had their own methods of getting there. in the end they both worked on differing tech that involved manipulating the brain of organic brings yet unless both races worked on the exact same project you can't 100% compare them.
Nomai: Travelled the stars while respecting and preserving local flora and fauna.
Owlk: Travelled to one star but destroyed an entire moon to get there.
Possibly the Nomai's most impressive feat are the statues. It connected to and properly affected a completely different species, and it can even retrieve experiences that occurred while DEAD past the stranger's cloaking field. Which is possibly the Owlk's strongest feat.
In Stellaris terms, I see them as both having fantastic Engineering research, but Nomai also focused Physics research, whereas Owlks had Society focused. They're equally advanced, they just researched slightly different things. Sure, one of them has FTL in the form of black holes, but who needs FTL when you can make a mobile planet for several generations to live on?
Of course, your last point does make sense, the Owlks are basically a Fallen Empire, now living on a single planet content with their current growth, while the Nomai likely kept growing, only having lost the one group.
So, yes, counting the species as a whole, Nomai almost certainly win, I'll admit.
Now I want to see an Owlk Ringworld with an Advanced Warp Core inside it. The ultimate spacefairing vessel.
What does FTL mean
@@generalcrab0009 Faster Than Light.
I have a theory that the Nomai shuttles do have more advanced readouts and controls, but you need a Nomai staff to access them. There's a lot of Nomai facilities like that, with seemingly no or absolutely minimal controls... but a Nomai staff could link with them and provide the interface that they'd use to actually build a warp core or fire the Sun Station.
I think youre right. Im pretty sure one of the nomai logs say something about the ships readings when they visited the interloper.
What could have happened if The Nomai worked with the Owlks ( ik that can’t happen)
I'd say the nomai got the ATP to work, they just didnt have the time to tweak the sun station in order to power it. If ATP didnt work, we wouldnt have a time loop. The nomai were all killed before finishing touches were made, i have faith that they absolutely would have succeeded, but the interloper stopped their progress in its tracks
Before i even watch, def the Nomai, in broad terms anyway. It feels like the Owlkin had never left their home planet, let along system, until they followed the Eye, which would make them a Type 1 civilization, on the other hand the Nomai were already spread throughout the Galaxy by Escall's time, and 280k years later the modern messages on Escall's vessel show the Nomai as traveling entire galaxies, this would make them a Type 3 civilization. Simply being able to manipulate black holes in hand held containers puts them ahead.
Both species seem to have long natural lifespans (far longer than a human's), but the Nomai had a better mode of transport and stronger understanding of how the universe worked. Manipulating individual atoms, generating energy from black/white holes, even their written language is essentially complex molecular chains. Each Nomai seems to have some form of telekinesis too. Stacked stones rebuild themselves, and a wave of their staffs could make anything from the materials around them. They also had ways to generate artificial gravity that didn't rely on centrifugal force (The Nomai chose not to use those technologies in Ash Twin, tho i posit they didn't want energy from other devices affecting the project)
The Owlkin literally needed the ENTIRETY of their world's resources to travel one star system away, a journey they did thru normal space with solar sails. The only way they could emulate gravity was thru fictitious forces. As impressive as their cloaking technology was, the Nomai DID eventually get thru it. If the Nomai were alive for finding the Eye, they would have seen and studied the Owlkin cloak ship and probably found the Ark right away as a result. It's actually somewhat sad, if the Owlkin were further away from the Eye, they may not have been able to observe the eye's signal. Their kind would have likely caught up to the Nomai's level in a few thousand years.
Humanity in 2022 is technically capable of most of what the Owlkin did. We could migrate to our nearest star if we really wanted to. It would take several decades, possibly centuries, which would require a generational ark like the Owlkin used, which would consume insane resources and labor, but it's theoretically possible. We're also well on our way tocreating augmented and virtual reality environments, and successful research into Brain-computer interfaces is being done now. EVERYTHING the Owlkin are shown to have done, humanity can do today or within the next century. Humanity has MUCH less understanding of quantum physics to have 'warp drives' or other novel Nomai tech. It would likely take Humanity several centuries, possibly mellenia, to reach Nomai level tech.
That said, the Nomai didn't really have telepathic communication machines, an ability to directly share knowledge to the next generation, or sophisticated cloaking tech, tho it seems the Owlkin made their journey in one of their lifetimes and made no attempt to reproduce after finding the Eye? The Nomai seemed uninterested in plying their computer skills into suspending their minds in a virtual environment in stasis and eventual death.
One thing both species share, is they are generally VERY united in broader goals compared to Humanity.
On a separate note, The Heathians, thru the protagonist, were very briefly a Type 4 (or possibly Type 5?) civilization +^_^+ (Type 4 being a civilization in control of the total energy of an entire Universe)
This was not stated but I am positive that The Stranger travels using solar sails.
15:36
Solar sails are a form of travel by basically riding light waves. The solar sails only open when the ship detects the sun is about to go supernova (which says something more about their tech and motives). When the solar sails open, the ship rides the light waves of the sun, and exits the solar system.
Basically the same tech used to move the rafts but on a very large scale
While they do act like solar sails. They also act like all the other green glass we find. Which arent solar sails. Also, the stranger sits stationary. It has to combat gravity even when the panels are closed. We also see the stranger do maneuvers in the reels that dont seem possible with solar sails. Like backing up. I truly dont believe they are solar sails. I asked the developer though. So when they respond to the email we will get to the bottom of it!
@@TheLoreExplorer I can agree with that; they’re not solar sails. Though, the fact that the ship starts moving when the “sails” open is still my grasp on this thought. Even if they are not technically solar sails, would it be wrong to call them that based on their purpose?
Id say yes. Solar sails are a specific thing. I think , for players who dont know the difference, that its misleading to call them solar sails. Like how I wasnt sure if you meant actual conventional solar sails or not.
@@TheLoreExplorer Now I’m very curious on this. Since “Solar Sail” is a very specific thing, then what do we call the ship’s propulsion device?
The light tech green glass has a very strange property. It’s kind of like a solar panel but induces movement over electricity. That is probably how I concluded “solar sail” but that does not apply to everything clearly.
If I were to come up with a name, I would go with “light sail” for any light causes motion. Though the same tech is used in the elevators and I wouldn’t call those “sails.” I would happily call the tech on the rafts “light sails” and definitely call the ship’s propulsion big “light sails.”
I believe that the green tech being used as a form of transportation would justify them as “light sails” for they don’t need wind or specifically the sun to function, but need a “natural” force. Outside of that, it’s just light tech.
Would you call it something else or would you prefer the name to be unknown? (Assuming that there isn’t a known name already?)
Wed have to know how it works before we could name it. The green panels could just be light sensitive activators. And the stranger could have a more conventional means of propulsion that activates when light shines on them. Right now its hard to say. And I think just saying solar sails confuses people a bit. Thats all Im trying to point out. Im not sure what a better name would be. But I have an interview with the lead dev and director in which I ask about them so Im hoping they will shed some more "light" on the situation for us.
average interstellar pessimist vs average intergalactic optimist
What really gets me is that the Hearthians discovered the stranger on accident with a generation of attaining space flight. Its hard to beleive that the nomai never launched a vetrically orbiting satellite or probe, as thats all thats needed to notice the strangers cloaking field.
i think comparing the nomai to the owlks is like comparing a hammer to a chisel. both quite advanced in their own regards, but incapable accomplishin what the other can for one reason or another
nomai tech is often quite grand in scale and capability, but lookin at it, it's all very much brute-force style advancement. instead of any of their "flight" tech havin any sort of actual thrust, it just has breaks, a "go home" button, and is launched out of a freakin, cannon. while certainly intuitive, it's more comparable to what we humans use today than even what the hearthians, the "lets make this thruster bay out of wood" engineers have goin on. they're very much a "hold my beer" species, because while they do a lot of profound thinking, many of their solutions to problems are "what if we did what we were doing before, but we did it BIGGER". of course one can still be a mentally sophisticated species while exhibiting this kind of behaviour, brevity is the soul of wit and genius is found in simplicity after all, but in terms of the level of complexity of the tech, the nomai are very much the hammer, not the chisel. bold, but imprecise
the owlks on the other hand have very elegant technology. nomai tech is pleasant to look at, but the owlks really lean into beauty over function. their tech can do amazing things, but first and foremost, it must look nice. instead of having a series of efficiently dreadfully similar rooms and hallways just like the ones in the landing bays encircling the stranger, they built an entire world, and even important rooms dedicated more to the use of the ship than living in it were of a comfortable rustic design. i would go so far as to say that every last bit of wood on the stranger was likely *hand-carved*. the functional parts of their tech have very VERY niche and sophisticated uses, however, and they seem to have a more profound understanding of what the mind is than the nomai. it's one thing to record information and write it back in later, but it's somethin else entirely to simulate that information even just forming thoughts, let alone formin a living being. that said, even their most impressive tech is largely impractical. it looks pretty and can do amazin things, but ultimately it's not exactly *useful* the way anything made by the nomai is (and this is all disregarding how primative the owlks come off as in terms of cultural mentality. in terms of tech complexity, the owlks are the chisel, not the hammer. detailed, but inefficient
I’m sure if they had more time before the interloper arrived the nomai would have been able to find a new power source for ATP
Im not. They stated the sun station could never blow up the sun. And thats the only way to power it. Im not sure how else theyd even conceive of doing that
@@TheLoreExplorer then what powers the core on the vessel?
The black hole warp core. The nomai used the black hole on brittle to power their civilization there. But it doesnt have enough power to explode the sun
@@TheLoreExplorer I thought the warp cores needed power to be operated, instead of generating it. Isn’t that what we see in the atp and all the smaller cores.
Black hole warp ores are just confined black holes. They all have a tiny amount of power inherently. Enough to power a 0.0001 second time interval.
i think one of the biggest flexes of nomai technology is that instead of just building guard rails on the hanging city, they built an entire station around the white hole to send people back
The thing is, all the Owlk technologies including mind reading/projection, light sensors, simulations, signal blocking, cloaking etc are stuff I can imagine humans achieving in a few hundred, maybe thousand years. But the Nomai stuff, tbh it reaches the realm of godlike power. Instantaneous communication and travel, timetravelling, gravity manipulation, oof. Like it isn't even a question really, the Nomai definitely are more advanced, in that I cant really imagine humans ever reaching their level of advancement.
This was mentioned in another comment (3 months ago but regardless lol) but at 14:50 you show an artificial day-night cycle in the stranger/a version of the stranger devoid of light, I've never seen this happen/appear in game, is it there or was this unused/removed or such?
I think that the nomai are vastly more advanced in a technological sense but lose out in basic understanding of the universe.
As in while the nomai use cutting edge technology to do basically anything, the owlks can achieve similar results with a much lower tech solution. they are still incredibly advanced but manage to achieve more with less. I would compare them to the relation between a botanist (nomai) and a farmer (owlks), sure the botanist can tell you every gene of plant and what conditions are necessary to keep them in good condition, but the farmer will be able to plant and manage large fields of crops with minimal equipment.
Another thing I find interesting is comparing the vessel and the stranger. while yes I don't think anyone would argue that the vessel is more advanced than the vessel (its a goddamn fully functioning ringworld with cloaking), i think scale is also important the nomai vessel was the pinnacle of a single clan of nomai, a very advanced but single research and exploration vessel, while the stranger is the culmination of the entire race of owlks. Its like comparing a marine research vessel with the ISS. Sure they are both highly advanced but one is the result of a single research teams effort while the other is a full on international cooperation project. They are not comparable.
One correction to a small point that came up a few times: the Ash Twin Project demonstrably works. The Nomai may have never been able to operate it due to not having the power on hand to do so, but the fact that the events of the game happen at all is only because the Ash Twin Project is working exactly as intended on the first try without any hiccups or issues outside of a few broken statues. In fact, the statue that the player is linked with continues to work despite the fact that part of its storage has been removed to be fit into your ship computer. This is the reason your computer remembers everything you log between loops: the Ash Twin Project still works despite another species messing with its tech and still can send information to a remote piece of its storage.
In general I agree with your assessments, but I still think someone in the comments here put it best. The Owlks' space faring tech is far less advanced than the Nomai, but it seems to be because the Nomai are more curious than the Owlks. The Owlks appeared to have used technology as mostly a means to an end whereas the Nomai demonstrate constant progression for the sake of research.
A last point I didn't see mentioned, though is that the Owlks got to the Eye of the Universe first despite their less advanced space ships. We don't know how long they were traveling to or orbiting in the area of the Eye of the Universe, but we know that it had to have been while they had functional bodies. They probably weren't advancing their tech much while traveling or after reaching their destination and certainly didn't continue to make innovations once they all moved into the simulations permanently. It's possible they could have continued to advance their technology had they not decided to follow the signal of the Eye of the Universe, but considering they didn't seem to be as curious of a species as the Nomai I don't think it would have made much a difference. It also would have meant we would have never learned about them in the first place.
To offer a counterpoint, consider firearms as an extreme example. If the trigger isn't functioning, but the bullet's powder ignites spontaneously one day, causing the gun to fire, then theoretically, everything (except the trigger) works. However, it still doesn't function as intended. I would argue this scenario still falls under the category of malfunctioning.
Humanity has engineered countless inventions with 99% of their components functioning correctly. However, if the power supply fails to meet the necessary standards, these creations become effectively useless, unable to perform their intended functions.
The nomai deserves tons and tons of credit. But I just think we should mention where they fail as well. As for the scenarios. Yeah. The nomai were curious about more things. And this led to more innovation and such. But that doesnt stand for much. They both innovated when their curiosity was peaked or out of necessity. Id argue that simply ceasing to innovate for thousands of years while you travel or hide away in the sim speaks to the whole less advanced thing.
Its fun to imagine a scenario in which the inhabitants further their knowledge of bioengineering or light harnessing/manipulating. But its equally fun to imagine a scenario in which the nomai listened to felix(I think). The young nomai suggested using the advanced warp core for a vessel and reuniting with the Nomai. Id like to believe they could have achieved their goals if they had reunited with the other clans.
@@TheLoreExplorer As far as your firearm example goes, I think a better comparison would be not that the trigger doesn't function but rather it requires too much force for the creator to operate, then someone else with a stronger grip comes along and is able to pull the trigger. Now as far as it triggering itself goes, obviously the comparison breaks down at this point, but I still see it as less of as the mechanism doesn't work and more that the Nomai didn't have the power to operate it.
They designed it to be powered by a supernova and it worked with a supernova, they just didn't have the means to artificially induce a supernova so it took until the star naturally died before it would activate. They also knew that this would happen on its own and therefore would have known that as long as they didn't touch the Ash Twin Project it would have operated at some point in the future. Arguably they already had all the technology they needed to operate it, just not the technology to live long enough to see it operate.
Imagine I had made a tsunami-proof wall that could prevent the destruction of a coastal town in such a scenario. I might need a tsunami to prove it works and convince anyone it was a worthwhile endeavor, but that wouldn't change whether it would successfully protect the town or not when the first one actually hits. The tsunami is an inevitability, my ability to artificially induce a tsunami is separate from the functionality (or lack thereof) of the wall.
Fair enough view to have I suppose. I suppose we just sort of disagree here. I tend to deffer to a nomais viewpoint in which it would not function. But rest assured others share the same sentiment you do and its essentially just semantics. I do give it credit for everything the ash twin project was capable of doing. I just sort of call them out for not being able to activate it as intended
My take is that the owlks were likely a *much* older species who had largely completed their technological development as far as they had cared to having reached a sort of cultural and technological equilibrium - until they discovered the Eye.
This event upended their society with a degree of religious fervor that led to a renewed interest in technological development, and unfortunately precipitated an ecological crisis on their homeworld during the development of the Stranger.
From that point forwards their technological development was an expression of their obsession with the Eye, and the necessities if their voyage and the long Vigil that followed after their great disillusionment.
By contrast the Nomai seemed to be a younger race of technological savants driven by unquenchable curiosity, who developed technology as much for its own sake over any specific utilitarian purpose. As such, they were far more advanced in more abstract fields, such as the advanced physics that led to their understanding of Warp travel. Culturally on the other hand, they were almost like exuberant children, with relatively little sense of caution or restraint in their explorations, which led them to their end by a different route than the Owlks.
One thing I don’t quite know is right is how the memory statues know we died. I don’t think the memory statues specifically work like that and they theoretically keep going after our death. The only reason why the loop ends there is because in death, time isn’t experienced (plus it would be boring waiting for the 22 minutes to be up) so although the loop probably continues, our character is just instantly sent to the next one with the memories it was able to gather before our death.
No, the reason our memories get broadcasted back as soon as we die, is because that's how the statue records memories. It broadcasts memories back to the start of the loop, not sends your mind back, so as soon as you die, that's how the next loop you perceives what happened.
I dont say they know we died. I say if we die. They have nothing to record. When the loop ends our memories get sent back. They stop when we die. But in the case of dying to enter the sim. The recording doesnt stop. Even though we died. So the statue has to be recording something. And it HAS to be the simulations version of us. And so the statue thinks the simulated version of us is actually us.
I don't think that's how it works. The ATP is sending memories back, not the entire hatchling. Regardless of when you die during the loop, the ATP can't send anything until the supernova powers it. Once it receives power, it sends all of the data it stored to another iteration of you 22 minutes in the past before it can be destroyed. Obviously when you're dead there's no information to gather so it can't store and send anything to do with events that happen after your death. The universe just continues on without you until the ATP is powered and a new you inherits the memories of all the other yous that have been through the ATP.
It's kind of morbid when you realise every death is real and the hatchling you continue playing as has the memories of dozens of dead versions of themselves. It's also interesting to realise that any hatchlings that survive the supernova continue existing in their own respective timelines, we as the player just swap over to the inheritor of their memories.
16:10
Those "flashing blue lights" are not visions, they are your memories in data form being sent to the past. If you watch closely in the ATP, you can witness it firsthand
I know that. But we actually do see it. And then it all gets sent to the pc at the beginning of the loop. And again. They literally see our meories play back. Just like a vision.
Im pretty sure if the nomai met an owlk they would first make a note of them only having 2 eyes
Yeah, even if the owlk was beating them up 😂
the most crazy would be getting these two species to work together, they could probably end up creating their own universes
14:49 wait, when does this happen?!
Also, I was under the impression that the Stranger was using some form of solar sail propulsion. (How that works with the cloaking technology, ...I have no idea. Maybe it's something like a magsail instead?)
4:40 Bro scared the hell outta me thought something in my room was about to explode 😭
todays loop took a bit longer than 22 minutes 😨 ☀️💥
ya the owlk simulation doesn't operate off memories, it hosts your consciousness, so effectively that you can be dead
in the game your consciousness is some kind of energy pattern that can move across other mediums apparently
Exactly! I hate how everyone sees the time loop and immediately closes of any possibility that anything else could be as or kore advanced.
@@Millticker I still think the nomai are clearly meant to be superior technology-wise. I mean, the group we see in the game literally consists of a bunch of refugees - Other nomai civilizations could be way more advanced. We don't know much about them, but from the little we do it seems they're extremely competent - having figured out gravity fields, warp drives, faster than light communications, storing and transmitting memories (i.e. brain manipulation, not that less impressive than the owlk's simulation), and probably more things I'm forgetting about right now. The stranger and its technologies are sure impressive, but the nomai are pretty much as powerful as you can get. I don't think there's really a competition.
I personally think that a good way to measure the advancement of a race isn't by what they are capable of at the absolute peak of their technological abilities, but rather what they consider to be ordinary. For example, Solanum just casually manipulates gravity to build the little pedestals for you to place the rocks on that she casually cut perfectly out of solid stone, all with a few waves of her staff. The owlk memory staves are similarly casual in their use, used for general purpose communication of complex topics rapidly. The Vessel was designed to travel between star systems instantaneously, and it seems every clan had one, meaning that they were commonplace enough to not be considered particularly special. The Owlks had precisely one Stranger for their entire race, which they had to tear apart their entire world to build.
In human terms, digital computers had been conceived of as early as the Greeks, but they would have been so prohibitively expensive to build that they would only be a curiosity for the rich at best. The first "official" digital computer was built around WWII to break the Enigma code, and it was the only one in existence. Nowadays, digital computers are in almost everything that consumes electricity, and all but the weakest ones have enough processing power to send someone to the moon.
Thats sort of odd to me. Its logical enough. But to mention computers and how we went to the moon in the same sentence. And be speaking to how computers are the thing we should measure our advanced nature by. Is wild. Yes. We havent been there in around 70 years. Yes. We only went 5 or so times. But idk. Think its apples and oranges. Rockets, and specifically the Saturn 5 , was a bit more advanced. And they are commonplace now.
Also , as a side note. Nomai cant manipulate gravity by waving their hands. It seems to me its more along the lines of sonic manipulation. How fire fighters can use sound to put out fires. Stuff like that.
@@TheLoreExplorer The moon comparison I had in mind was how even a tiny modern computer has far greater processing power than the supercomputer in the Saturn V rocket.
My point was that while the Nomai and the Owlks may have had very similar accomplishments within the Outer Wilds system, the Owlks were clearly performing most of their impressive feats as a very costly one-off measure to reach the Eye and then dealing with the repercussions of those costs, whereas the Nomai were performing most of their impressive feats as a very routine task - jumping to the new system, building space-warping cores (heck, Nomai society even has dedicated people whose job it is to build them, Annona in the case of Escall's clan), crafting solid stone as if it were clay, manipulating gravity itself, etc. Even the Ash Twin Project grew out of them using the White Hole Station often enough to notice the time discrepancy, and they were able to accomplish that without destroying any inhabited planets.
Oh , yeah. Im pretty sure I concede to that at the end. That yes. Nomai are clearly the more advanced species. The way I imagine them , backed up by a little lore , is literally molding their surroundings with sonic manipulation using their staff. They show up to a planet and just start making bridges or whole cities using sound. All without breaking a sweat. And they are advanced cities at that. Able not only to manipulate gravity. But also so many smaller pieces of tech I ignored in this video. But major tech for major tech , I was surprised at how long the simpler species kept up. Thats all.
@@TheLoreExplorer i dont see the nomai as that advanced, personally. when they first crashed on brittle hollow, they had to use rudimentary bridges at first, then simpler stone structures under the escape pod crash, then build the hanging city which is one of the most complex cities/areas in the game, but it took them time (years if im not wrong) to get there. same with the ember twin crash, they had to find a safe place before they built those simple stone houses.
To be fair, the Owlks' cloaking did hide The Eye and The Stranger from the Nomai basically completely (Not just the clan in our universe, but also all the others for ~300,000 years.) and can withstand a supernova at least as well as the ATP, so perhaps their cloaking technology specifically is more advanced than the Nomai's. Not to mention their super impressive simulation, which seems superior to the Nomai's potential one (They didn't know of a way to increase lifespan indefinitely.) However, it's ridiculously impressive that what we see as like 3-4 generations of Nomai were able to basically make a time machine and reinvent warp technology and all the other stuff nearly from scratch. It really speaks volumes about how advanced the Nomai clans probably were at their prime. I don't think we can be certain, but the Nomai seem more all-rounded (gravity, time-travel, memories, warping, spaceships), while the Owlks were very specialized toward cloaking and the simulation, so I agree with your conclusion. Great video.
I think the most complex piece of technology in outer wilds is the owlks ability to scan the eye and understand its capabilities.
I think I can explain what's happening with the Ash Twin statues. We already know that subatomic particles can be quantumly entangled. So, you could entangle two particles and no matter how far apart they are, whatever affects one affects the other. The most basic version of this is using quantum entanglement to send messages via binary code, with two entangled electrons as the vehicle.
Further, the easiest and safest thing to send through the Ash Twin project is data. They knew that violating causality was dangerous, so instead of trying to loop a person, they used the statues to quantumly entangle the bioelectric signals in the brain. This why statues must be paired, but they can be paired to biologicals or computers. They entangle the energy, and record it. This is why you can die to enter the dream and not get immediately looped. The entangled brain energy leaves the body and enters the dream.
The stranger has a day/night cycle? I have never witnessed the lights go out in the stranger.
I was thinking about it. The Hearthians, if they'd had a long enough timeline, might have outdone the other two. They were figuring out Nomai tech and repurposing it, without even being able to understand the language. They figured it out from trial and error and hard won understanding.
Thanks for covering this
I see the gap between their technology is smaller than i thought
I still think the owlks are slightly less advanced, but it's mostly based on the nomais access to warp tech, which is situational, perhaps if the owlks had access to brittle hollow when the black hole was more obvious, they could have developed similar tech
But that's the point of the video "you look at Nomai and you think wow a time loop that's the best technology ever!!" But consider actively recreating a mind in a simulation, it may not look as "wowsers time travel!" To you but it's literally creating a copy of your mind in the simulation Wich is basically creating a AI that has free thought you might think it looks as cool but it definitely is ground breaking technology
@@Millticker Then again the Nomai also found a way to interface with the mind, which they use to transmit memories back in time. And in both cases the technology works on hearthians as well despite it literally being alien to them. It seems that consciousness is more of a physical thing in the Outer Wilds universe, being consistent between species somehow - which means easier methods of manipulating it probably exist. Subsequently, uploading a brain to a computer would probably be considerably simpler to pull off than in the real world.
The owlks wouldve discovered the blackhole if they didnt hide away in a fake world
wait couldn't nomai create a giant battery with the energy needed for the warp back and charge it very slowly? cuz that would solve all of the issues they had with the sun station
I mean....yeah. Thats how they warped. But warping took up so much energy their batteries were empty.
It is too boring for Nomai ::)
I wonder what their impressions would be, the nomai would wonder why the Owlks are so fearful, but amazed at their ring world, dreamtorches and simulations whilst the Owlks would wold think the vessel and warp cores but think they're insane for chasing the unknown and trying to blow up the sun for fun.
Great video! Very in depth and detailed!
the owlks and the nomai had vastly different cultures, so fair comparisons of "who is more advanced" must take that into account. for example, the owlks never made enough ships to get everyone out in case of emergency because they never planned to leave. the nomai never made a cloaking device because they don't want to stay separated from other beings in the universe. etc.
Best option is to use “The Kardashev Scale” if we want to measure a civilization’s level of technological advancement. So it’s based on how they collect and maximize their use of energy.
Imo,
1. Owlks were the early Type 1 civilization, since they’re able to access and use their home planet resources, but were unable to use the all the energy sources in a solar system optimally. (Since they decided to stay within their ship, instead of trying to live in other planets, which probably they didn’t have the capability or resources (or to find them optimally) to terraform).
2. The Nomai were in between the late Type 2 and early Type 3 civilization. Since well, they could use blackhole, know how to use the star (even if they failed, they did know the theory, that’s why they’re in between type 2 and 3 civilization), and pretty adaptive to a new environment even the harshest (except in dark bramble’s, since it’s basically a different concept of universe and so its laws)
Ive seen this said exatly once, but the most ompressive thing the Owlks did was figure out what the eye would do before it did it, because that means they didnt even need to use it to figure it out, because if they did, they wouldve all died, so they figured out what a thing which could do literally anything would do before it did it, just by using a vision torch on it, that alone is significantly more impressive than the cloaking field, and its nowhere near close
while watching this video I got to thinking about the Nomai statues
I think that the visons with the Nomai statues are just an unintentional byproduct of the memory storage/retrieval process. sort of like the theory that dreams are just your unconscious mind going over your thoughts and feelings from the previous day and organizing and storing them, which your conscious mind sees and gets real confused and makes them into dreams. Your consciousness is being bombarded with strange inputs while you're sleeping at the start of the next loop, and the visual of your memories playing back when you first pair is your brain making sense of all the memories the statue is making you recall to copy and store them. I also think the glowing lights aren't a hallucination (being separate from your memories playing back which I think is a hallucination (meaning it's a perceived input (sight) without any apparent physical stimulus, not that you, or the player character are crazy)). when you're inside the ATP and the sun goes supernova, you can see the information flowing into the blackhole in the form of floating glowing lights, meaning that floating glowing lights are something that can exist in the Outer Wilds universe. and since no one (alive), least of all us, see a statue pairing from a third party's perspective (meaning not the statue or the pairee but someone separate), It's entirely possible that the glowing lights we see when we first pair with our statue are really there, if not tangible, then at least visible.
this is something I'm sure everyone else has already thought, but in the off chance that it is an original thought, I wanted to share it.
I find that the Nomai and Owlks would complement each other very well. As far as I see them, the Nomai are more like scientists and engineers, using rational thought. Their culture "the festival" even is centered around knowledge sharing, everything embedded in their unshakable curiosity. Their character seemed to me to be focused outward, filled with curiosity.
The Owlks on the other hand seem much more inward focused, on the mind and soul. They love a quiet life with music comfort, and tend to keep things to a minimum (hence a rotating station, no fancy gravity tech, only water power and sunsails, little technology at all). They might be the far better minimalists and environmentalists if they were given the same tasks as the Nomai. And their understanding of the mind was on a magical level, quite literally. The Owlks have something very shamanistic about them, it reminds me of exactly that; Shamans.
18:00 so maybe the nomai statutes aren't recording our exact perception maybe they're hooked onto our essense somehow and recording that, then playing it back to our essense
Though the owlks had there feats, such as creating the eye signal blocker, the nomai created teleportation, and that then lead to TIME TRAVEL
To me, they all have advanced answers to different complex scenarios. It is difficult to say who is more advanced, as it depends on the specific scenario. It would be a good comparison if they were all given the same scenario and their successful achievements were compared. This would allow us to see who is the most advanced overall.
Take Solanium and the prisoner to play are you smarter than a Hearthian
I think in terms of intelligence both species are on par, what set their technology advancements different was their motivation. Nomais dedicated all their technology outwards to find the Eye of the Universe so they're more willing to risk experimenting with blackholes and warping; Owlks, on the other hand, dedicated all their technology inwards to preserve their lives, so they are not interested to travel but instead, experimenting with retaining their conscious and mind in Virtual Reality, and to hide from the Eye of the Universe.
It's also ironic that Solanum and the prisoner were the black sheeps of their civilization but ended up becoming the only ones achieving their species' goals. Solanum reaches the eye of Universe while prisoner gets to carry on info of their civilization to the next universe (if you chose to).
An artificial ecosystem doesn't strike me as advanced at all compared to the other technologies of both species -- artificial ecosystems are something IRL humans are close to being capable of doing, while most of the other technologies in the game are very much scifi.
You say that. But the nomai flew around with tiny trees only to give them oxygen. If it were trivial I would guess the vessel would better space to live. And no. We cant really just make ecosystems on such a large scale. In fact , we cant even control the ones we have. Any one telling you we are close to terraforming mars or something is lying. If we could do that we would just terraform earth.
@@TheLoreExplorer Creating an artificial ecosystem is a substantially lesser feat than terraforming a planet. It's a matter of starting point and scale -- when building an artificial ecosystem on a space station, things like temperature and atmospheric composition are largely givens -- if those problems weren't already solved, the station in general needs work. The specific choices when making the ecosystem can alleviate or exacerbate the challenges of maintaining that, but not to a catastrophic extent. A space station or isolated biodome is also small enough that it's easier to identify and learn from problems. That small size is also why regulating temperature and atmospheric conditions is already humanly achievable in some circumstances. Even though the Stranger is a similar size in-game to the planets, I interpret that as the Stranger not needing a gameplay conceit rather than as the Stranger being planet-sized.
With terraforming, you need to do a whole planet, and you need to make radical changes. There are massive challenges before you can even think about ecology.
If I hear the phrase "artificial ecosystem on mars", I'm going to think of a climate-controlled dome with a careful selection of species. The dome itself is the aspect we are furthest from achieving -- it's hard in general to regulate the climate of a large space, and having the interior climate differ so much from the exterior climate is another major source of challenge.
Controlling an existing ecosystem is also a greater feat than creating an artificial one. When creating, you can make choices that make things easier for yourself. When maintaining, you are stuck with what nature gave you.
The best argument for humans being close to artificial ecosystems is an example of humans being close to artificial ecosystems -- the Biosphere 2 facility is a research facility studying artificial ecosystems. It looks like they had two full-isolation experiments, with the ecosystems surviving well (though not necessarily with human-friendly atmosphere) until the 10-month mark.
The stranger is on planetary scale. I dont think its as simple(which isnt simple) as making a few domes. We also dont see the Nomai really creating better and safer spaces to live on the planets they were stuck on. I guess they did a bit of bioengineering. Again with trees. But I truly think creating a self reliant , self contained , space station is advanced by almost any standard.
@@TheLoreExplorer I don't interpret the stranger as being planet-scale. Even though the in-game size of the stranger is on par with the planets, I have always interpreted the size of the planets as being a gameplay conceit, and the stranger has always felt like an escape from that -- especially since the simulation world is essentially flat, implying that it emulates a more IRL-scale body and thus that the stranger is many orders of magnitude smaller than the owlks' homeworld. The stranger feeling like it has IRL-like scaling is a major part of why I don't consider its biosphere in the same technology bracket as the other things mentioned in the video.
The nomai not creating something similar is plausibly a matter of cultural difference. Both cultures are in a technology bracket where an artificial biosphere probably doesn't solve problems better than machines, meaning it would only be built if the culture saw intrinsic value in such a project. It could even be a sign of nomai advancement -- they don't seem to need biological sources of food, while the owlks might need that.
Id argue that notion simply because , as a player , we are the scale. Our ship is the scale. Our ship is tiny compared to the stranger. Its interesting though , cause youre right. It is a gameplay conceit. There are only 30 owlks because any more wouldnt convey anything. In the same way bigger planets would be pointless. And the Nomai had to live through certain danger. With the hollows lantern and what not. Id think there would be intrinsic value. Safety. Life.
Very interesting video mate. This got me thinking for awhile. I feel both the Nomais and the Owlkins were equally very advanced in their intelligence and technological comprehension to begin with. The Nomais were able to master and rationalize the quantum mechanics of time dilation to the point of sending information and memories to an active body back in time. They were able to achieve this by entangling their consciousness and memories no matter where they are. That is some Type 2 or 3 level civilisation feat. In this area, the Nomais have an upper hand. The Nomais also rebuilt themselves from scratch in a different eco-system of a planet and were able to survive. To them, scientific endeavours were a way of life rather than a hobby. They were deep problem-solvers devising ingenius ways to find the Eye of the Universe. They were capable for interstellar travel or teleport via blackholes/wormholes. In contrast, the OwlKins are a more innovative lot compared to the Nomais. The OwlKins scientific brilliance seemed to be more oriented towards virtual reality and their ability to simulate their homeworld with the blue lantern flame dynamic. Their technology also allowed them to foresee or have visions abt the future. They also seemed to be master story-tellers detailing their journey in the film rolls we find in The Stranger. While the Nomais were orthodoxically scientific and religious about the Eye of the Universe, the OwlKins seemed more contemporary in their approach to science and the Eye signal. They also were able to block out the signal as well and cloak themselves. Given this, its fair to say both were almost equal. But I would say the Nomais were slightly more advanced.
Yeah, it’s not The Stranger’s fault that they didn’t find the magic all purpose gravity crystal
@@noizepusher7594 We don't know if the nomai discovered the crystals or invented them. Regardless, it makes a lot of sense for a species constantly traveling the cosmos looking for new discoveries to come across the crystals sooner than a species who destroyed everything they had just to go on one trip.
@@commenturthegreat2915 actually, in their interview with TLE Mobius said that Brittle Hollow was made of gravity crystals which is why there’s a black hole at the center, because the gravity crystals condensed each other together to the point that they created a black hole
The Nomai made an advanced signal locator that projects the source of the signal in real time? Big whoop. The Owlk made a god damn telescope able to not only perceive and view signals, but also have the ability to project that data directly into their minds.
well, the stranger uses solar sails as its propulsion. this is tech we currently have too.
also the stranger isn't using fake gravity, centrifugal force is natural gravity compared to a device that generates artificial gravity (although it may be unfair to say that without understanding the nature of the artificial gravity)
The Nomai clans live all throughout the galaxy or even universe, while the owlks just live on their moon that they destroyed to build the stranger. The Nomai probably have amazing structures and technologies that are out there in the universe with other clans.
I don't know that, but thats what I beleive anyway. Good video 👍
Thanks for actually making the video, it was thoroughly enjoyed! I think their achievements should be taken in the context of the two species, how Nomai are very curious while owlks prefer confiding in what they know or believe in. I believe that the eye was the source of Owlk religion even before the stranger was being constructed, and that their space travel technology developed with the intent of transporting their entire civilization to essentially meet god, like a pilgrimage. I think it's also important to consider what the two civilizations were exposed to in their journeys. For example, the Nomai recreated gravity manipulation through a resource that didn't exist for Owlks. The owlk's solution is equally as elegant when considering what was available to them. I initially thought that the Owlks were objectively worse off than nomai but now I think it's subjective.
Also when do the lights go off in the stranger? I never saw that in my whole playthrough.
So what i think, the owlk simulation tranfers your consciousness into itself. So with your consciousness in the sim you still create memories. And the Nomai satatues dont only transfer memories, but your consciousness itself. So its not tricking the Nomai tech, its working similarly to it.
The statues, when linked, could copy, store, and transfer your memories from you to the masks. What if they dont entirely do that? What if instead when linked they act as a hive mind.
So they aren't actually recording your memories, they are experiencing your consciousness. If you die you have another vessal for your mind. Statues have no senses, thats why you dont perceive the rest of the loop. And at the end of the loop the mask thats also connected to the hive mind sends it through, back in time to itself and the hive mind thats linked.
Now with that said, the sim moves your consciousness into itself. Unlike the statue you have your senses in the sim and therfore can still perceive it. You are not linked to it in anyway, its a temporary place to hold your mind. So the statues operate as normal.
So while your body may die, your mind has not. It simply changed hosts.
You are still connected to your physical body, but if thats severed you still have the hive mind connection to the ATP.