I prefer loud but with some questions.... On the Marshall, why did the clips sound virtually the same if a JCM800 doesn't have a Gain knob? All I saw from both reference tones was that the master knob moved from 1 to 4. To my knowledge, the JCM800 needs to be dimed to get good tones and the baby 800 didn't behave that way. The Orange.... I hate their labeling scheme for the knobs and noticed the same deal as the 800. The Mesa sounded virtually the same as well with more top end on the loud setting. Can you tell us what settings were changed from the normal vs. loud settings? I would've been good to see you tweak the levels and also have a room/cab mic instead of using a reactive load.
I think a bit of that smoothing is probably good, but too much and you lose definition. Here I preferred the quieter takes! On that same note, you should reeeaaally check out that video by Jim Lill. Absolutely eye opening when it comes to interactions of different parts of an amp. It's this one: ua-cam.com/video/wcBEOcPtlYk/v-deo.html
@@n0nyabznss The 800 does have a gain knob, it is labeled as 'preamp'. If you would push the master volume even further, there would be more gain, but not more loudness. I think you misunderstood this video. All the settings are the same, only variable is the master volume, which is set relativeley quiet or relatively loud as seen on the video.
Especially on the Marshall I could tell the difference in the loud. There was a passage played where during the loud the Marshall seemed to have a bit of mids push.
These kinds of Orange amps are killer. If you can't afford the Rockerverb, I'd highly recommend picking up a second-hand Orange Rocker 30. Got one and they sound great. They're an amp that doesn't need to be cranked to sound great. Sonic Drive Studio's demo convinced me to pull the trigger. Sounds great with a Way Huge Swollen Pickle.
I also prefer something in between blazingly loud and quiet, then dial in from there. I'd like to hear a comparison that includes the Engl Fireball 25 and MT-15.
I think you hit it on the head John, most people are hearing the fletcher Munson curve when they crank up the amp and mistakenly think that it’s the amp that is causing the perceived tonal difference.
I played almost 10 years with an Evh 5150 III 50w mk1 at lower level (bedroom level). Since last December I plugged it in a powerstation 2 which allowed me to crank it up between 1 or 2 o'clock and it's it's like night and day. I'm know able to lower the gain knob under 11 o'clock on blue channel and with to help of the power tubes saturation i'm able to have enough gain to sound less modern
The one thing I'll say is that your master settings are definitely not cranked. Changing from basically 9:00 to 11:00 on the Mesa Master really won't do much. Same with 8:00 to 11:00 on the orange and just going to 4 on the Marshall. You're still not pushing the output tubes at that point.
@@SonicDriveStudio Honestly I'd say the difference here is negligible - I listened through all the examples. Your comment here also seems to go against every other comment I can find on this video. But if you look at something like The Brown Sound which is characterized by being completely dimed (albeit also with a lower mains voltage), you'd notice a massive difference between a dimed master volume and set at 8:00. Like, just the use of the word "cranked" I would find fault in - if you're comparing low and high you need to go to low and high, not low and not-even-halfway.
Fascinating comparison. I've also heard numerous claims that Amps sound better when cranked, but I preferred the "quite" tones on all those Amps for the same reasons you mentioned. Thanks
Fantastic Video Jon. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I prefer the sound of all of the amps at their quiet level. That was a real eye opener. I think I like the articulation of the playing being more present, due to, I think, the less compression and saturation the tubes are imparting. What would be REALLY interesting is if you could do this exact thing again, but mic up a cabinet and then level match the results to see the effect that the cab has on the tone (pushed vs not so pushed). Great job man... Loved It!!
I saw a guy search for the tone of Nevermind by Nirvana. He only achieved it with the old version of some cabs, I think they were Green-whatever. Think is I'd say they sounded better for that Nevermind tone because they added distortion at those levels, and the new ones probably didn't because it's not something sought after nowadays.
I'm really glad that you did these demo because i realize that i like it more on your quiet settings,it has more definition to my ear.thanks for sharing,knowledge is always appreciate
I actually really like the sound of my Dual Rectifier at a lower volume. I figured I'd need an attenuator to get the goods, so I was pleasantly surprised.
The quiet versions had a little more treble but sound close enough not to matter. The thing is that cranking tube amps for tone refers mainly to non high gain amps(when set to low volume) such as plexis, JTMs, Fenders and vox ACs. The amps you tried don't fit the traditional reason for needing to crank them up
So glad you did this. I've never believed that an amp cranked would actually sound better, and you demonstrated this. I preferred the lower volume settings. Higher volume setting sounded more compressed (not in a good way) and more tubby (for lack of a better term).
I Really like that video ! Nice playing, nice editing, very good experiment ! However. I do own an AC15, a Roadking II head and a Valveking 100 and I've recorded quite a bit with those things through a mic'ed 2x12 (hughes&kettner tm212) and a SM57 + E906 and also through my Torpedo load box. I must say that I don't trust my ears when comparing quiet vs loud in the room because load will always sounds better to a music afficionado haha. In the DAW however, When I want to go through a cab for various reasons, I always record my amps at loud volumes because there is kind of a mid-range presence and top-end smoothing that I can't get at lower volumes. The loadbox on the other hand will offer me similar results as I hear on this video between loud and quiet! Again, your experiment really captures the compression that happens while driving the power tubes and it is the best video to showcase that ! But I do believe there is more to the question if we consider the recording through a cab and mics part ! to me, recording through mics and cabs, driving those tubes is effectively compressing the sound but also, in my opinion, unlocking a wonderful tonal potential that can only be found if you change the amp's settings to better fit your newly acquired compression, which will unfortunately prevent an adequate analysis/comparison on youtube ! If it makes sense, I can get a more aggressive sounding rythmic tone with less fizz at high volumes than at low volumes... Its almost like the amp being naturally compressed and how the speaker moves affects your EQ in a way where it removes the high-end harshness so you can be more aggressive on those mid and treble knobs without compromising tone or making your amp sound like a weed wacker.. Like its ''fuller, richer''. Only my 2 cents coming from a very very limited background in recording amps. I know you have way more experience and knowledge than I do and you might have tested what I'm saying already without finding any different results which would mean I'm just not recording real amps properly and I can live with that too hahaha ! huge respect for your work man ! keep it up
YES! This video was so useful! I prefer the quiet tones to the loud ones. This flies in the face of years of marketing and traditional guitar "wisdom".
Yeah, on my Mini Jubilee the difference between the master below 12:00 and over 12:00 is massive, it gets so fat and juicy without losing clarity tho. I love it! (I use an attenuator)
Here goes. 1. Marshall: It's great when quiet. Lotsa transients and very rock sounding. Loud sounds too puffy. 2. Orange. Totally into the cranked version. Just adds more body to an already great tone! 3. Recto. Quieter wins here. Rectos are meant for preamp distortion and just a hint of power coloration. This is a great example. As always your compare vids are the best!
Appreciate this video Jon. Cranking them is the opposite of what I want out of an amp. Mushy and undefined. I much prefer the articulate (and IMO) balanced sound of the quieter volumes. It's sort of like the difference between a Les Paul and a Tele. As usual, quality riffs :)
My experience is each amp usually has its optimal sweet spot somewhere in the middle ground. My Mesa Triple rec didn't sound great turned up super loud nor did it sound good at very quiet volumes. The master around 10 o'clock was where it worked. Each amp has a sweet spot where it behaves well, is stable and dynamic. What you showed is exactly my experience with amps as well. Great job.
I'd really like to see this done again but with a mic'd cab. The "amp sweet spot" thing pre-dates the modern load-box/IR technique by quite a number of years, and I bet the speaker cabinet has a lot to do with that.
@@bobbyblair6862 I dunno, to my ears there's an mic/cab dynamic that you only get with a certain amount of volume. I disagree with his statement that speakers are linear up to distortion - I also think they're non-linear at the quiet end. Or maybe it comes from the mic - no idea, I've just had a lot more success miking cabs with a bit of volume.
@@ophic you may say that (and I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong), but I'd really like to see how you'd perform in a blindtest with recordings of a mic'ed cab and an IR of the exact same setup. Human perception is easily deceived by visuals and preconceptions.
@@mrcoatsworth429 Probably couldn't tell the difference, as long as the speaker cab was loud enough to be equivalent to the IR. If the cab was miked at a very low volume, I think I could tell. Maybe if the IR was created at the same low volume, it would sound identical.
to my ears, loud master vol = less definition and clarity (all else being equal). But you could also turn the pre down and master up and get a diff tone and maybe up to where even the speakers barely clip so you get various sounds that aren't "better" but different. just how I hear it.
A thought: What about the FEELING of louder volume levels? With the DI box and IRs, do you still play your speakers louder so you feel the vibrations in the ground and air? I find these vibrations to be very very satisfying when playing more aggressive music
I've always preferred big tube amps at a medium volume, even with bass. Otherwise, the low end gets blurry and the highs get too compressed. Great demo!
Hey man! Really dig your channel, and tunes! Just wanted to say this. 4 on an amp is the starting point,. when amps begin to open up 6.5- 7 is where the magic of the output tubes happen using w real cabs pushing the spkrs. Which is when they sound their best. I 've worked alongside some of the big names in rock and that's how it's done when using a real amps and cabs at large venues and large festival shows.
@@deconstruction3397 Actually, when you back off the pre and crank the volume, they sound great. Too much pre and volume past a certain point on the amp is exactly that. Give it a shot and you'll hear quite the difference.
It would have been a help if you’d have posted the db levels of the quiet and loud so people would know how quiet it was and how much louder it was, other than that very enlightening
Fletcher Munson and sound in the room is super important. Ears are weird things. From what I'm hearing, the master volume on the Marshall adds bass and sag, makes notes less articulate, and you end up with less control over palm mutes and playing dynamics. It seem like with the master turned down, a nice boost pedal could make more of a difference over the sound. As you said, you'd really want to change the EQ settings for the volume difference. Could definitely see where you'd want certain parts of songs to be recorded with lower master for clarity. A more compressed rhythm sound that tucks into the mix might work better with a high master.
Another superb video Jon! This was a great illustration of finding the “sweet spot” and how important it is to use one’s ears. Modern reactive loads allow us to this in any location while keeping Fletcher & Munson out of the equation. Cheers 🤘🏻😎🎸
I've always heard "crank it up to sound good" for one of three categories: 1) non master volume amps 2) when speaker breakup is desired (e.g. greenbacks; Nuno has talked about liking them before, for specifically this purpose) 3) for when you want as much power tube saturation as possible (so... starting with ~4 on the master volume for your mini-jcm800, and then turned all of the way up as the comparison to to when it's at 4); often this is with non-master-volume amps, but also with some of the high-gain master-volume late-90s amps like the Mark IV that normally have a ton of headroom at bedroom volumes.
The Orange RV50mkIII was the best one cranked! It sounded bigger and the Marshall and Mesa sounded like they were collapsing on themselves a bit. Team #orangeamps!
There’s a great vid I came across demonstrating the old Marshals without a gain knob. He ran a volt meter across the output transformer. When hitting power cords, the output transformer dropped from 400v to 240 or below. Basically overloading it, and drops out. . This is where the “tube crunch compression” really comes from
In all cases I preferred the quiet sound. The loud sounds just sounded dark, compressed, and flubby on the low end. Edit: Once again, I have to compliment your playing, Jon. You are a talented riff writer.
i feel like there may be a factor missing here. if you dial in a quiet amp to make it sound nice, the same settings turned up loud may not work as well. ie, usually quiet amps can be a little bright, so you cut the treble to smooth out, but at higher volume treble balances out and you probably could add it back in. the biggest factor is the louder you get, the mids get thicker and louder. just a thought. the quiet settings of this video sat well in the mix with cut and to me sounded better.
oh, and in regards to the mesa. they have an over-all master volume as well as channel master volume. i run the over=all master at 12 o'clock and that seems to help with having a nice open power amp sound with headroom. channel volume to suit level of amp in room. sounds best to me that way.
in terms of recording, it's pretty subtle, but I remember I saw the black dahlia murder live many years ago and they only played on like 2 or 3 on the volume, I guess to get a clearer sound and not distort the mics, and yeah it did sound clean but also kind of a annoyed me at how quiet and kind of flat it sounded. I think the sound really only opens up at about half way. I think this test kind of demonstrates that but only went to 4 on the volume so the power amp characteristics where just starting to come out but not really fully open. Interesting demo
To my ears the Marshall has more individual string definition and harmonics at quiet level and slightly brighter.. however the compression and smoothness of the loud level is more suited to chugging and metal type tones...both very usable..the orange one is more subtle but get the same effect w compression and darker tone.. quiet level is more open...the mesa was very much consistent throughout imo...more noticeable with chugging for sure..great video man.. would love to hear another 3 amps! The soldano slo and the evh iconic and the Friedman dirty Shirley?
Great comparison! I think quiet vs cranked depends a lot what kind of music you play, and how you want the guitar to sit in the mix. In my experience, power tube breakup works best in combination with more moderate preamp gain. When the power amp gets hit with a signal that still has a lot of the dynamics intact, it gets to work its magic by smoothing out the peaks and fattening up the lower mids, making the amp feel more "alive" and easier to play. But when the preamp is designed to do that stuff on its own (like in modern high gain amps), there isn't much magic to work. It would be interesting to hear a comparison between cranked preamp / low master, and cranked master / low preamp, while trying to match the overall overdrive levels between the two settings.
Great video. There was much less of a difference in tone than I expected. The same guys you were talking about who say you have to crank an amp to really hear the tubes work are going to complain that you didn’t dime the amps, and that you have to max out the volume to really hear a difference.
When the amp is loud, it loses articulation. You can't hear the pick hitting the string anymore. The tubes add saturation and that kills some of the transients that can otherwise be crucial for certain genres that require precise picking.
I preferred them closer to the quiet side. I like the definition in the notes better. I run my Recto-Verb 25 quieter most of the time for recording and noticed you did as well on your demos. But when I'm just playing through my cab in the room, kind of hard to beat the feeling of cranking it up and moving some air 😅
Makes much more of a difference "in the room" with a real cab than in this kinda setup IMO, but in my experience you never have to "crank" the amp, it's just that there's a kind of minimum level where the amp really sounds held back and weak. As long as you get above that threshold, where the speakers get moving and the amp can breathe, you're fine, and there's no real benefit to going louder just for loudness' sake.
Interesting video. I would imagine there's a pretty sweet butter zone somewhere in between the loud and quiet settings. Especially for someone who would be using real speakers.
Bought a Fryette PS100 to get the sound I wanted out of my 20 watt JCM 800 at low levels. It can keep the same sound at different volume levels now. Like the foot switchable effects loop on it as well.
Great video! I seemed to like the Orange and the Mesa at low volume, but the Marshal sounded better loud. I find Marshals kind of ice pick like at low volume, which explains why I was never able to jive with my DSL40C.
Cool experiment and glad to finally confirm that volumes don't necessarily matter. I agreed with all you said about all 3 three amps and especially enjoyed the quiet tones of the Mesa Recto! I have a few myself so I am a little bias ;) Great video \m/
Wow! Interesting. I hear the same results with my Mesa Throttle Box EQ pedal (when playing around with its volume knob) thru the normal input of my Boss Katana 100 compared to the Dual Recto in this vid. Thanks for this video. Nice!
The Recto Solo Head sounds a lot better at lower volume. Marshall and Orange had more bit and Mids when turned up. I think you just have to find the sweet spot volume wise on any amp. Video proves "louder" isnt always better when it comes to an amp.
Great video, been pondering precisely should I get a load to get that 'crank it up' sound for Engl Powerball I. Based on this, no. Low level tones imo are superb on PB I. Please, if You have the time. put Your powerball 2 to the test, would clarify what is the effect in Engls. Thanks for the great enlightening video.
1. Marshall: I prefer the lower level sound, which had more highs and transients. The louder level sounded more compressed and round. 2. Orange. I preferred the louder level sounded full but still had the clarity over the lower level. 3. Recto. I prefer the cranked level more. The buzziness of the recto was smoothed out when cranked. Like others stated. I think it would be very informative to do this with a mic'd cab. The IR's might not be capturing the speaker/s in a state where they are being driven as in a situation with a cranked amp. Speakers (in my opinion) are a huge component in the overall sound. I love your demos and keep up the good work.
Appreciate your vids brother. I play my EVH 50watt 6l6 at bedroom volume daily and I think it sounds good . I don't get a chance to crank it to often so not sure if it's much better loud or not. Lol
There's something important to note here: the speaker is a fixed ecuation, speakers have a dynamic character based on volumes and the type of sounds played through them. So the test is ONLY related to the amp itself, perhaps results might be different if used with a real speaker.
Agreed. There always IR's being used and that a just not the same thing as pushing air in a room. It's one thing that really bugs me about amp reviews lately. I might be old school but I feel like I can't get a sense of what an amp is really doing with that layer of emulation attached rather than a traditional speaker for some reason. Maybe it's a brain thing but I just discount the sounds as 'altered'. In addition all of these amps sound similar because they're all relying heavily on their preamp distortion. Power tubes just don't add much else to the tone here. Take a non-master volume amp and only use the volume and it's a different thing altogether though.
I remember in the late 1970s the rhythm players used the 100W amps to get a cleaner tone at high volumes while the soloists preferred the 50W because of the earlier overdrive. Later everybody started to think louder is better... I used a Twin for clean and 2 cranked Pro Reverbs for overdrive, but back then we mostly played open air...
Proved this to myself years ago with a reactive load box and IR loader. Sometimes power amp distortion sounds cool, especially in doom metal, but if you want a bright aggressive tone it’s easier to get at lower volumes.
The volume knob on tube amps should be called "power" and not "volume". The tubes need power to function and do their job, that's what people mean when they say "the tubes opens up and can breath". Where this threshold is for "enough" power certainly isn't "cranked" unless we're talking about a plexi. You don't need to crank your amp to 10 for it to sound good. But if your tubes aren't getting enough power then the tubes can't do their job properly. This doesn't mean that playing at volume 1 sounds objectively bad though. Nice video! I also agree people confuse louder volume with sounding better.
If you're using a cabinet instead of an i.r. you do get a little resonance from the wood vibrating at higher volumes. Just like a 112 vs a 412 cabinet varies using the same amp. I know the Marshall dsl series has a capacitor on the master volume that brightens them up at lower volumes, most mod's I've seen are of disconnecting that bright cap'
Orange as usually awesome. In terms of amps that can show that difference between quite and loud I think that need to think about sweetspot that you mentioned. I think quality and taste of sound means more than just loudness. Overcompressed amps sound lifeless. Also need to mention that in a different mix(different style) it may sound better as too compressed, who knows. Thank you for awesome video!
interesting. but only using IR's, if you use a 2x12 or any cab, there's a point where the cab pushes the air in a different way. as you probably know, you need certain power to drive a speaker, so probably the myth of LOUD is more about the cab than the amp itself. but it's also true (at least to my ears) that theres a sweet spot for the amp and the cab. usually an amp on full throttle will not sound as good. Love your videos, btw.
Great video. If you want clarity and articulation, go quiet. If you want to smooth out the highs and emphasize the mids, along with smearing things up just a bit, go loud. Nice!
Hey. Jon. Thanks for the informative video! I now realize that Recto sounds better if it cranked up, so it compress the fizzy top end a bit. For another high gain amp, I think they sounds best at quiet level.
This test should have included a Marshall 1959 100w Plexi because this is the most common amp in late1960’s to early 1980’s rock music and it is the amp where volume has the largest impact on gain and tone. It is the amp that really gave us the idea to “Crank it to 10 to make it sound good!”
Well as it so happens, recently I was fortunate enough to be able to experiment with a mates 71 100w Superbass and 72 100w Superlead, I brought along my Freyette PS 100 to show him how much he was missing by using a €40 PPMIV mod in the Superbass instead of getting 'those power tubes cooking' ... 6 hours later, I had to hold my hands up and admit the difference was so subtle, that you could easily compensate with simple EQ pedal or in this case dialling in a tiny bit more 'depth' on the PS 100. So yeah, I was pretty stunned to say the least, and also due to the location of the amps, we were able to record them running full throttle without any attenuation ... and the difference was just a small bit of 'depth' eq away ... which you would normally take out of a band/track mix in reality, and definitely cut for any hard rock/metal riffs. The whole thing shut me up thats for sure !! I'd still take either of those amps over a low wattage modern version though !! 😜
A lot of famous tones are recorded with Marshalls dimed at 10 (example, the Smashing Pumpkins' Siamese Dream tones). 4-5 on the master volume and the amp is barely starting to wake up. The fact that amp doesn't get louder and just gets more compressed is exactly the point. The idea is that the power amp saturation is replacing some of the need for pre-amp gain distortion. Been a long time since I was in a studio, but I always recorded with my DSL100 set to 10. At lower volumes it sounds like a pedal simulation of the real amp. Some mics can't handle the sound pressure level, and your engineer will likely have to set his console channel strip gain pretty low to avoid clipping the board, but if you want thick and gooey, that's the way to do it. There's also the aspect of the speakers themselves breaking up, distorting, and compressing the signal in different ways as the input signal gets louder, and with the sealed cabinet getting super loaded with pressure. Sometimes the tone we want comes from the amp and speaker both pushing way past their comfort zones. And worth noting that any speaker IR that was captured on a speaker that wasn't being pushed hard will not sound the same as an IR of a heavily loaded speaker, even if you crank up the amp feeding the IR. The IR needs to reflect what a speaker actually does when the amp is really hammering it. Of course, everyone's tastes are different. And thick and gooey might not be the desired tone, especially if you're playing technical fast metal. So some players need a tightly controlled signal. For them, playing quiet may be the way to go.
Great comment. I own a DSL50 myself and run the green channel on around 9 o clock for rhythm work. For everything lead related or overdubs, that need to stick out of the mix, running the master higher gives you everything you would want. More sustain, more gain, more feedback, more mids. When using real speakers of course..
The difference is miniscule on distorted tones, especially using IR's. Clean/edge of breakup-fuzz tones is where it really shines, through an in the room real speaker/cab. I have a vintage silverface super reverb 4x10 combo with an attenuator hooked to it and it gets quite nice in that category. Theres a huge difference in cranked and low volume with those types of tones.
power amp that uses push pull needs a 12ax7 to split the signal So such amp at louder levels pushes the power tubes phase inverter the sound you get isn’t quiet Power tubes break up ;) & + at louder level you must ad the speaker optimal loudness they tend to add their distortion . frequencies . its sensitivity its optimum volume of expression has a different braking point. & its the biggest change in sounds overall. I tend not to fall into such categories as Better or bad vs good. to me its a lauded term. If it sounds good its good. if it fits in . than better . Experiment with your gear & see where it takes you . The main point … Cool riff in Man ! love it !
I admit that I skipped right to the Dual Rec since I have one also, but I would say the quieter level was better overall. I record mine the same way. Playing excessively loud is probably overrated, especially for home recording purposes. Years ago I called Mesa directly and asked them what a "decent" volume level would be needed to a good recording volume for any of their amps (all pre-IRs and going direct, mind you) and I was told "not that loud - slightly loud is more than enough". So take that for what it's worth.
Thank you for putting this to rest! I see far too many people using amps like this with attenuators to push them harder, not realizing these modern amps that are designed for preamp gain only, have extremely light duty transformers.. when you push an amp to the point that it’s overdriving the phase inverter and pushing the output, you are actually pushing more wattage than the amp is rated (amps wattage rating is measured just at the point before clipping). As a result of really pushing these light duty transformers into attenuators above their rating, they are slowly cooking the output transformer, shortening tube life, and cooking the PCBs in the amps, Knowing that too may think this is “cool” is why I shy away from the used amp market for the most part. Not saving anything when you consider what it will cost to repair from being misused and abused. Attenuators were designed for non-master volume amps back in the day that were pretty much overbuilt, with heavy transformers that could dissipate the heat a lot better. As someone whose worked as a tech I can say it’s made me a lot of money, but I feel bad knowing it could have been avoided.
Quiet is definitely better to my ears. I was just testing tones on my dual rectifier and was surprised at how much better it sounds at lower gain settings in a mix. Now I’ll have to try the volume too.
I prefer them quiet. Great video! I've been experimenting with my amps at home using an attenuator and without, and I'm actually feeling like the attenuator is not needed. As long as the volume control allows for a quiet level.
Modern metal gain comes from the preamp section and actually requires a really clean and tight power section to sound best, but classic sounding tube amp breakup is achieved by distorting the power section. The lesson to take from this vid is: volume affects how the amp sounds and can be experimented with for more variety of sounds.
I noticed a difference on the Marshall. It was fizzy on lower volumes, more mids on louder volumes. But an adjustment on the e.q. would have evened it out.
I mean, if its a high gain sound I find its best to find the right spot between 4-6. Its has a lot to do w the change in the feel of the guitar as I play it too I'd say. On the other hand I have a Fender and a Vox that don't distort unless you turn them up you know.
Very interesting, Rockerverb handles loud settings best, i think, bit thats not fair, as i`m a big fan of this amp. Would be really interested in a video about how the attenuator in the Rockerverb MK3 affects the sound. I also own one, but would be nice to hear your opinion on it.
I guess something in between, but it depends on the preamps for the mic. If we put a higher gain for the mics when the amp is more silent, the sensitivity of the mic preamps is higher and can color the sound. On the contrary, loud amp, more silent mics, we don't reap the benefits of that grit the mic preamps otherwise offer. That's why at lower amp volume, the sound of the amp seems a bit more saturated at the higher frequencies.
I'm surprised you didn't turn up the amps more. The "loud" level was less than halfway up on the master (yes that's still loud with a speaker, but you're using a load box...). It's no surprise the difference was subtle. I suggest doing a follow-up with three volume levels: quiet (as in this clip), medium (just over halfway up) and cranked (all the way up). Also, in an actual live or recording scenario, you would adjust the preamp gain and tone controls when cranking up the amp. For example, on the JCM800, you could reduce the preamp gain when the power tubes start clipping, which makes the preamp brighter (due to the bright cap), adding sparkle, as the poweramp gets darker.
I would love to see some really old-school amps, the classic crunch amplifiers, Fender '59s, Vox 30, etc. Do you need to use extreme volume/EQ settings there as well? Or maybe they were the ones where this "crank it up" myth was originating from?
On the JCM2000 DSL2000 , the sound CHANGES very very much when you are let's say 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 and above .... but stays the same at levels 4 or less... On my Orange OR15 the tone stays about the same but introduces more gain and compression.
For us who know, a Plexi circuit is the Holy Grail of hi gain when its pushed. Non master volume, output tube distortion of anything like a Bassman is key. Preamp gain is mush in comparison. Output section of modern amps are basically power amp. Its subjective, but if you havnt played through a full up Plexi NMV, you are missing out
Thanks for doing this! Way LESS difference than I tought. Subtle shades of how much compression and loudness one prefers. Could probably be tweaked with other parameters. Cheers
I liked them both in high volume, and in quite volume. For a great tone with a little of both, i would play it somewhat in the middle of what you set them to. Kinda what you said😊 Yeah it will be exiting with some other amps aswell. And same other amps i would like to hear in a similar test is amps I’ve got: 1. Engl Fireball 25 2. Marshall JVM410H 3. EVH 5150 III 6l6 50w And some amps i’m looking for: 4. Mesa Badlander el34 50w 5. Laney IRT60H 6. Bugera 6262 infinium Please consider my choices. They would be great interesting and quit different sounding overall👍🏻 Thanx Jon for exiting vids that almost everytime is usefull (for me that is) and makes a different! Cheees from Sweden🇸🇪🍻🤘🏻
Not a really acurate comparison, you would need to put that master volume on 10 to really notice the difference, since all those amps have standard master volumes, that are after the preamp tubes but !before! the phase splitter tube. So by turning the master down you massivly reduce the phase splitter distortion, in almost all old marshalls for example the distortion comes from hitting the phase splitter hard, not the 12ax7 overdriving.
The Newer amps or modern amps sound at low volumes good enough. But older amps really begin to shine at a certain volume. By the way, in which mode were the Rectifier? Diode or Pentode?
So what do you guys think?
I prefer loud but with some questions....
On the Marshall, why did the clips sound virtually the same if a JCM800 doesn't have a Gain knob? All I saw from both reference tones was that the master knob moved from 1 to 4. To my knowledge, the JCM800 needs to be dimed to get good tones and the baby 800 didn't behave that way.
The Orange.... I hate their labeling scheme for the knobs and noticed the same deal as the 800.
The Mesa sounded virtually the same as well with more top end on the loud setting. Can you tell us what settings were changed from the normal vs. loud settings?
I would've been good to see you tweak the levels and also have a room/cab mic instead of using a reactive load.
I think a bit of that smoothing is probably good, but too much and you lose definition. Here I preferred the quieter takes! On that same note, you should reeeaaally check out that video by Jim Lill. Absolutely eye opening when it comes to interactions of different parts of an amp. It's this one: ua-cam.com/video/wcBEOcPtlYk/v-deo.html
@@n0nyabznss The 800 does have a gain knob, it is labeled as 'preamp'. If you would push the master volume even further, there would be more gain, but not more loudness. I think you misunderstood this video. All the settings are the same, only variable is the master volume, which is set relativeley quiet or relatively loud as seen on the video.
Especially on the Marshall I could tell the difference in the loud. There was a passage played where during the loud the Marshall seemed to have a bit of mids push.
subtler differences than i was expecting, but HOLY CRAP your riffs are fantastic!!
Man that Orange just plain sounded killer all around.
It never fails to impress!
It sounds SO damn good!!
I AGREE…. Wow..
These kinds of Orange amps are killer. If you can't afford the Rockerverb, I'd highly recommend picking up a second-hand Orange Rocker 30. Got one and they sound great. They're an amp that doesn't need to be cranked to sound great. Sonic Drive Studio's demo convinced me to pull the trigger. Sounds great with a Way Huge Swollen Pickle.
I also prefer something in between blazingly loud and quiet, then dial in from there. I'd like to hear a comparison that includes the Engl Fireball 25 and MT-15.
I think you hit it on the head John, most people are hearing the fletcher Munson curve when they crank up the amp and mistakenly think that it’s the amp that is causing the perceived tonal difference.
I played almost 10 years with an Evh 5150 III 50w mk1 at lower level (bedroom level). Since last December I plugged it in a powerstation 2 which allowed me to crank it up between 1 or 2 o'clock and it's it's like night and day. I'm know able to lower the gain knob under 11 o'clock on blue channel and with to help of the power tubes saturation i'm able to have enough gain to sound less modern
The one thing I'll say is that your master settings are definitely not cranked. Changing from basically 9:00 to 11:00 on the Mesa Master really won't do much. Same with 8:00 to 11:00 on the orange and just going to 4 on the Marshall. You're still not pushing the output tubes at that point.
If you listen to the clips you can hear a quite drastic difference, especially with the Marshall and Mesa. That says enough
@@SonicDriveStudio Honestly I'd say the difference here is negligible - I listened through all the examples. Your comment here also seems to go against every other comment I can find on this video. But if you look at something like The Brown Sound which is characterized by being completely dimed (albeit also with a lower mains voltage), you'd notice a massive difference between a dimed master volume and set at 8:00. Like, just the use of the word "cranked" I would find fault in - if you're comparing low and high you need to go to low and high, not low and not-even-halfway.
Fascinating comparison. I've also heard numerous claims that Amps sound better when cranked, but I preferred the "quite" tones on all those Amps for the same reasons you mentioned. Thanks
Fantastic Video Jon.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I prefer the sound of all of the amps at their quiet level. That was a real eye opener. I think I like the articulation of the playing being more present, due to, I think, the less compression and saturation the tubes are imparting.
What would be REALLY interesting is if you could do this exact thing again, but mic up a cabinet and then level match the results to see the effect that the cab has on the tone (pushed vs not so pushed).
Great job man... Loved It!!
I saw a guy search for the tone of Nevermind by Nirvana. He only achieved it with the old version of some cabs, I think they were Green-whatever. Think is I'd say they sounded better for that Nevermind tone because they added distortion at those levels, and the new ones probably didn't because it's not something sought after nowadays.
I'm really glad that you did these demo because i realize that i like it more on your quiet settings,it has more definition to my ear.thanks for sharing,knowledge is always appreciate
I actually really like the sound of my Dual Rectifier at a lower volume. I figured I'd need an attenuator to get the goods, so I was pleasantly surprised.
The quiet versions had a little more treble but sound close enough not to matter. The thing is that cranking tube amps for tone refers mainly to non high gain amps(when set to low volume) such as plexis, JTMs, Fenders and vox ACs. The amps you tried don't fit the traditional reason for needing to crank them up
a little more to it than that, but you are partially correct.
@@MrSneakyPants yes, same answer from me.
@@joejohnson8966 right? There are other considerations like not having a dedicated master volume on an amp, etc.
@@MrSneakyPants oh, for sure.
So glad you did this. I've never believed that an amp cranked would actually sound better, and you demonstrated this. I preferred the lower volume settings. Higher volume setting sounded more compressed (not in a good way) and more tubby (for lack of a better term).
I Really like that video ! Nice playing, nice editing, very good experiment !
However. I do own an AC15, a Roadking II head and a Valveking 100 and I've recorded quite a bit with those things through a mic'ed 2x12 (hughes&kettner tm212) and a SM57 + E906 and also through my Torpedo load box.
I must say that I don't trust my ears when comparing quiet vs loud in the room because load will always sounds better to a music afficionado haha.
In the DAW however, When I want to go through a cab for various reasons, I always record my amps at loud volumes because there is kind of a mid-range presence and top-end smoothing that I can't get at lower volumes. The loadbox on the other hand will offer me similar results as I hear on this video between loud and quiet!
Again, your experiment really captures the compression that happens while driving the power tubes and it is the best video to showcase that !
But I do believe there is more to the question if we consider the recording through a cab and mics part !
to me, recording through mics and cabs, driving those tubes is effectively compressing the sound but also, in my opinion, unlocking a wonderful tonal potential that can only be found if you change the amp's settings to better fit your newly acquired compression, which will unfortunately prevent an adequate analysis/comparison on youtube ! If it makes sense, I can get a more aggressive sounding rythmic tone with less fizz at high volumes than at low volumes... Its almost like the amp being naturally compressed and how the speaker moves affects your EQ in a way where it removes the high-end harshness so you can be more aggressive on those mid and treble knobs without compromising tone or making your amp sound like a weed wacker.. Like its ''fuller, richer''.
Only my 2 cents coming from a very very limited background in recording amps. I know you have way more experience and knowledge than I do and you might have tested what I'm saying already without finding any different results which would mean I'm just not recording real amps properly and I can live with that too hahaha !
huge respect for your work man ! keep it up
YES! This video was so useful! I prefer the quiet tones to the loud ones. This flies in the face of years of marketing and traditional guitar "wisdom".
Yeah, on my Mini Jubilee the difference between the master below 12:00 and over 12:00 is massive, it gets so fat and juicy without losing clarity tho. I love it! (I use an attenuator)
Here goes.
1. Marshall: It's great when quiet. Lotsa transients and very rock sounding. Loud sounds too puffy.
2. Orange. Totally into the cranked version. Just adds more body to an already great tone!
3. Recto. Quieter wins here. Rectos are meant for preamp distortion and just a hint of power coloration. This is a great example.
As always your compare vids are the best!
Appreciate this video Jon. Cranking them is the opposite of what I want out of an amp. Mushy and undefined. I much prefer the articulate (and IMO) balanced sound of the quieter volumes. It's sort of like the difference between a Les Paul and a Tele. As usual, quality riffs :)
My experience is each amp usually has its optimal sweet spot somewhere in the middle ground. My Mesa Triple rec didn't sound great turned up super loud nor did it sound good at very quiet volumes. The master around 10 o'clock was where it worked. Each amp has a sweet spot where it behaves well, is stable and dynamic. What you showed is exactly my experience with amps as well. Great job.
I'd really like to see this done again but with a mic'd cab. The "amp sweet spot" thing pre-dates the modern load-box/IR technique by quite a number of years, and I bet the speaker cabinet has a lot to do with that.
Most wouldn't hear a difference, unless your a "golden ear"
@@bobbyblair6862 I dunno, to my ears there's an mic/cab dynamic that you only get with a certain amount of volume. I disagree with his statement that speakers are linear up to distortion - I also think they're non-linear at the quiet end. Or maybe it comes from the mic - no idea, I've just had a lot more success miking cabs with a bit of volume.
@@ophic you may say that (and I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong), but I'd really like to see how you'd perform in a blindtest with recordings of a mic'ed cab and an IR of the exact same setup. Human perception is easily deceived by visuals and preconceptions.
@@mrcoatsworth429 Probably couldn't tell the difference, as long as the speaker cab was loud enough to be equivalent to the IR. If the cab was miked at a very low volume, I think I could tell. Maybe if the IR was created at the same low volume, it would sound identical.
@@ophic maybe, I don't know. Has anybody experimented with creating IRs at different volumes? That would be very interesting.
to my ears, loud master vol = less definition and clarity (all else being equal). But you could also turn the pre down and master up and get a diff tone and maybe up to where even the speakers barely clip so you get various sounds that aren't "better" but different. just how I hear it.
Wow!! What a cool experiment! I really dug both quiet and loud! Knowing this definitely helps in exploring more tonal options with my amp, or any amp!
A thought: What about the FEELING of louder volume levels? With the DI box and IRs, do you still play your speakers louder so you feel the vibrations in the ground and air? I find these vibrations to be very very satisfying when playing more aggressive music
Play loud before first note: "my neighbor gonna be mad..."
After first note: "I don't give a **** if I'm mad..."
I've always preferred big tube amps at a medium volume, even with bass. Otherwise, the low end gets blurry and the highs get too compressed. Great demo!
Hey man! Really dig your channel, and tunes! Just wanted to say this. 4 on an amp is the starting point,. when amps begin to open up 6.5- 7 is where the magic of the output tubes happen using w real cabs pushing the spkrs. Which is when they sound their best. I 've worked alongside some of the big names in rock and that's how it's done when using a real amps and cabs at large venues and large festival shows.
@@deconstruction3397 Actually, when you back off the pre and crank the volume, they sound great. Too much pre and volume past a certain point on the amp is exactly that. Give it a shot and you'll hear quite the difference.
@@deconstruction3397 No disrespect but I know what I know after 25+ yrs. Happy Holidays!
It would have been a help if you’d have posted the db levels of the quiet and loud so people would know how quiet it was and how much louder it was, other than that very enlightening
Fletcher Munson and sound in the room is super important. Ears are weird things.
From what I'm hearing, the master volume on the Marshall adds bass and sag, makes notes less articulate, and you end up with less control over palm mutes and playing dynamics. It seem like with the master turned down, a nice boost pedal could make more of a difference over the sound.
As you said, you'd really want to change the EQ settings for the volume difference. Could definitely see where you'd want certain parts of songs to be recorded with lower master for clarity. A more compressed rhythm sound that tucks into the mix might work better with a high master.
Brilliantly done, and man that Rockerverb sounds killer !!
Another superb video Jon! This was a great illustration of finding the “sweet spot” and how important it is to use one’s ears. Modern reactive loads allow us to this in any location while keeping Fletcher & Munson out of the equation. Cheers 🤘🏻😎🎸
I've always heard "crank it up to sound good" for one of three categories:
1) non master volume amps
2) when speaker breakup is desired (e.g. greenbacks; Nuno has talked about liking them before, for specifically this purpose)
3) for when you want as much power tube saturation as possible (so... starting with ~4 on the master volume for your mini-jcm800, and then turned all of the way up as the comparison to to when it's at 4); often this is with non-master-volume amps, but also with some of the high-gain master-volume late-90s amps like the Mark IV that normally have a ton of headroom at bedroom volumes.
The Orange RV50mkIII was the best one cranked! It sounded bigger and the Marshall and Mesa sounded like they were collapsing on themselves a bit. Team #orangeamps!
There’s a great vid I came across demonstrating the old Marshals without a gain knob. He ran a volt meter across the output transformer. When hitting power cords, the output transformer dropped from 400v to 240 or below. Basically overloading it, and drops out. . This is where the “tube crunch compression” really comes from
Just have to see all of your demos you use for your tests Are bad ass great work sir
In all cases I preferred the quiet sound. The loud sounds just sounded dark, compressed, and flubby on the low end.
Edit: Once again, I have to compliment your playing, Jon. You are a talented riff writer.
Same here. Louder samples were all a bit muffled.
Remember no other settings are changed. This is why you should tweak your tone at the volume that you'll actually use it.
Agree with Paul
true
Is he using impulse response for cabs? 🤔 Because real speakers has more difference...
i feel like there may be a factor missing here. if you dial in a quiet amp to make it sound nice, the same settings turned up loud may not work as well. ie, usually quiet amps can be a little bright, so you cut the treble to smooth out, but at higher volume treble balances out and you probably could add it back in. the biggest factor is the louder you get, the mids get thicker and louder. just a thought. the quiet settings of this video sat well in the mix with cut and to me sounded better.
oh, and in regards to the mesa. they have an over-all master volume as well as channel master volume. i run the over=all master at 12 o'clock and that seems to help with having a nice open power amp sound with headroom. channel volume to suit level of amp in room. sounds best to me that way.
Such a great comparison and instructive video. Thanks for sharing this.
in terms of recording, it's pretty subtle, but I remember I saw the black dahlia murder live many years ago and they only played on like 2 or 3 on the volume, I guess to get a clearer sound and not distort the mics, and yeah it did sound clean but also kind of a annoyed me at how quiet and kind of flat it sounded. I think the sound really only opens up at about half way. I think this test kind of demonstrates that but only went to 4 on the volume so the power amp characteristics where just starting to come out but not really fully open. Interesting demo
yeah, he didn't really crank any of those amps
To my ears the Marshall has more individual string definition and harmonics at quiet level and slightly brighter.. however the compression and smoothness of the loud level is more suited to chugging and metal type tones...both very usable..the orange one is more subtle but get the same effect w compression and darker tone.. quiet level is more open...the mesa was very much consistent throughout imo...more noticeable with chugging for sure..great video man.. would love to hear another 3 amps! The soldano slo and the evh iconic and the Friedman dirty Shirley?
Great comparison! I think quiet vs cranked depends a lot what kind of music you play, and how you want the guitar to sit in the mix. In my experience, power tube breakup works best in combination with more moderate preamp gain. When the power amp gets hit with a signal that still has a lot of the dynamics intact, it gets to work its magic by smoothing out the peaks and fattening up the lower mids, making the amp feel more "alive" and easier to play. But when the preamp is designed to do that stuff on its own (like in modern high gain amps), there isn't much magic to work.
It would be interesting to hear a comparison between cranked preamp / low master, and cranked master / low preamp, while trying to match the overall overdrive levels between the two settings.
Exactly, I was thinking something similar, although not that elaborate 😁
Great video. There was much less of a difference in tone than I expected. The same guys you were talking about who say you have to crank an amp to really hear the tubes work are going to complain that you didn’t dime the amps, and that you have to max out the volume to really hear a difference.
Really interesting, thanks for this video! BTW so happy you use Ownhammer again, so pleasant to my ears :)
When the amp is loud, it loses articulation. You can't hear the pick hitting the string anymore. The tubes add saturation and that kills some of the transients that can otherwise be crucial for certain genres that require precise picking.
Thanks Jon. Great video as usual.
I preferred them closer to the quiet side. I like the definition in the notes better. I run my Recto-Verb 25 quieter most of the time for recording and noticed you did as well on your demos. But when I'm just playing through my cab in the room, kind of hard to beat the feeling of cranking it up and moving some air 😅
Makes much more of a difference "in the room" with a real cab than in this kinda setup IMO, but in my experience you never have to "crank" the amp, it's just that there's a kind of minimum level where the amp really sounds held back and weak. As long as you get above that threshold, where the speakers get moving and the amp can breathe, you're fine, and there's no real benefit to going louder just for loudness' sake.
Interesting video. I would imagine there's a pretty sweet butter zone somewhere in between the loud and quiet settings. Especially for someone who would be using real speakers.
Bought a Fryette PS100 to get the sound I wanted out of my 20 watt JCM 800 at low levels. It can keep the same sound at different volume levels now. Like the foot switchable effects loop on it as well.
Great video! I seemed to like the Orange and the Mesa at low volume, but the Marshal sounded better loud. I find Marshals kind of ice pick like at low volume, which explains why I was never able to jive with my DSL40C.
Cool experiment and glad to finally confirm that volumes don't necessarily matter. I agreed with all you said about all 3 three amps and especially enjoyed the quiet tones of the Mesa Recto! I have a few myself so I am a little bias ;) Great video \m/
Wow! Interesting. I hear the same results with my Mesa Throttle Box EQ pedal (when playing around with its volume knob) thru the normal input of my Boss Katana 100 compared to the Dual Recto in this vid. Thanks for this video. Nice!
The Recto Solo Head sounds a lot better at lower volume. Marshall and Orange had more bit and Mids when turned up. I think you just have to find the sweet spot volume wise on any amp. Video proves "louder" isnt always better when it comes to an amp.
Great video, been pondering precisely should I get a load to get that 'crank it up' sound for Engl Powerball I. Based on this, no. Low level tones imo are superb on PB I. Please, if You have the time. put Your powerball 2 to the test, would clarify what is the effect in Engls. Thanks for the great enlightening video.
1. Marshall: I prefer the lower level sound, which had more highs and transients. The louder level sounded more compressed and round.
2. Orange. I preferred the louder level sounded full but still had the clarity over the lower level.
3. Recto. I prefer the cranked level more. The buzziness of the recto was smoothed out when cranked.
Like others stated. I think it would be very informative to do this with a mic'd cab. The IR's might not be capturing the speaker/s in a state where they are being driven as in a situation with a cranked amp. Speakers (in my opinion) are a huge component in the overall sound. I love your demos and keep up the good work.
There is always a point where everything is alive then past that point you get more gain and then more compression and sometimes mush.
Appreciate your vids brother. I play my EVH 50watt 6l6 at bedroom volume daily and I think it sounds good . I don't get a chance to crank it to often so not sure if it's much better loud or not. Lol
There's something important to note here: the speaker is a fixed ecuation, speakers have a dynamic character based on volumes and the type of sounds played through them. So the test is ONLY related to the amp itself, perhaps results might be different if used with a real speaker.
Agreed. There always IR's being used and that a just not the same thing as pushing air in a room. It's one thing that really bugs me about amp reviews lately. I might be old school but I feel like I can't get a sense of what an amp is really doing with that layer of emulation attached rather than a traditional speaker for some reason. Maybe it's a brain thing but I just discount the sounds as 'altered'.
In addition all of these amps sound similar because they're all relying heavily on their preamp distortion. Power tubes just don't add much else to the tone here. Take a non-master volume amp and only use the volume and it's a different thing altogether though.
the difference is very small but the loud setting sounds tighter.
good video
I remember in the late 1970s the rhythm players used the 100W amps to get a cleaner tone at high volumes while the soloists preferred the 50W because of the earlier overdrive. Later everybody started to think louder is better... I used a Twin for clean and 2 cranked Pro Reverbs for overdrive, but back then we mostly played open air...
Proved this to myself years ago with a reactive load box and IR loader. Sometimes power amp distortion sounds cool, especially in doom metal, but if you want a bright aggressive tone it’s easier to get at lower volumes.
I was misled myself with so called heavy strings, heavy picks and loud amps.
The fact, i need softer strings and pick, nad bedroom amp volume...
The volume knob on tube amps should be called "power" and not "volume". The tubes need power to function and do their job, that's what people mean when they say "the tubes opens up and can breath".
Where this threshold is for "enough" power certainly isn't "cranked" unless we're talking about a plexi. You don't need to crank your amp to 10 for it to sound good. But if your tubes aren't getting enough power then the tubes can't do their job properly.
This doesn't mean that playing at volume 1 sounds objectively bad though. Nice video! I also agree people confuse louder volume with sounding better.
Loved the video! More please
If you're using a cabinet instead of an i.r. you do get a little resonance from the wood vibrating at higher volumes. Just like a 112 vs a 412 cabinet varies using the same amp. I know the Marshall dsl series has a capacitor on the master volume that brightens them up at lower volumes, most mod's I've seen are of disconnecting that bright cap'
Orange as usually awesome. In terms of amps that can show that difference between quite and loud I think that need to think about sweetspot that you mentioned. I think quality and taste of sound means more than just loudness. Overcompressed amps sound lifeless. Also need to mention that in a different mix(different style) it may sound better as too compressed, who knows. Thank you for awesome video!
The Orange is impressive !
interesting. but only using IR's, if you use a 2x12 or any cab, there's a point where the cab pushes the air in a different way. as you probably know, you need certain power to drive a speaker, so probably the myth of LOUD is more about the cab than the amp itself. but it's also true (at least to my ears) that theres a sweet spot for the amp and the cab. usually an amp on full throttle will not sound as good. Love your videos, btw.
Friggin' great idea and execution.
Great video.
If you want clarity and articulation, go quiet.
If you want to smooth out the highs and emphasize the mids, along with smearing things up just a bit, go loud. Nice!
Hey. Jon. Thanks for the informative video!
I now realize that Recto sounds better if it cranked up, so it compress the fizzy top end a bit. For another high gain amp, I think they sounds best at quiet level.
Depends if you like the fizz or not. For me, with a Recto it's a part of that sound.
This test should have included a Marshall 1959 100w Plexi because this is the most common amp in late1960’s to early 1980’s rock music and it is the amp where volume has the largest impact on gain and tone. It is the amp that really gave us the idea to “Crank it to 10 to make it sound good!”
Well as it so happens, recently I was fortunate enough to be able to experiment with a mates 71 100w Superbass and 72 100w Superlead, I brought along my Freyette PS 100 to show him how much he was missing by using a €40 PPMIV mod in the Superbass instead of getting 'those power tubes cooking' ... 6 hours later, I had to hold my hands up and admit the difference was so subtle, that you could easily compensate with simple EQ pedal or in this case dialling in a tiny bit more 'depth' on the PS 100. So yeah, I was pretty stunned to say the least, and also due to the location of the amps, we were able to record them running full throttle without any attenuation ... and the difference was just a small bit of 'depth' eq away ... which you would normally take out of a band/track mix in reality, and definitely cut for any hard rock/metal riffs. The whole thing shut me up thats for sure !! I'd still take either of those amps over a low wattage modern version though !! 😜
A lot of famous tones are recorded with Marshalls dimed at 10 (example, the Smashing Pumpkins' Siamese Dream tones). 4-5 on the master volume and the amp is barely starting to wake up. The fact that amp doesn't get louder and just gets more compressed is exactly the point. The idea is that the power amp saturation is replacing some of the need for pre-amp gain distortion. Been a long time since I was in a studio, but I always recorded with my DSL100 set to 10. At lower volumes it sounds like a pedal simulation of the real amp. Some mics can't handle the sound pressure level, and your engineer will likely have to set his console channel strip gain pretty low to avoid clipping the board, but if you want thick and gooey, that's the way to do it. There's also the aspect of the speakers themselves breaking up, distorting, and compressing the signal in different ways as the input signal gets louder, and with the sealed cabinet getting super loaded with pressure. Sometimes the tone we want comes from the amp and speaker both pushing way past their comfort zones. And worth noting that any speaker IR that was captured on a speaker that wasn't being pushed hard will not sound the same as an IR of a heavily loaded speaker, even if you crank up the amp feeding the IR. The IR needs to reflect what a speaker actually does when the amp is really hammering it.
Of course, everyone's tastes are different. And thick and gooey might not be the desired tone, especially if you're playing technical fast metal. So some players need a tightly controlled signal. For them, playing quiet may be the way to go.
Great comment. I own a DSL50 myself and run the green channel on around 9 o clock for rhythm work. For everything lead related or overdubs, that need to stick out of the mix, running the master higher gives you everything you would want. More sustain, more gain, more feedback, more mids. When using real speakers of course..
Great riffs as always man big respect💪👍😎
The difference is miniscule on distorted tones, especially using IR's. Clean/edge of breakup-fuzz tones is where it really shines, through an in the room real speaker/cab. I have a vintage silverface super reverb 4x10 combo with an attenuator hooked to it and it gets quite nice in that category. Theres a huge difference in cranked and low volume with those types of tones.
I just discovered your channel and I think it's awesome. A lot of helpful content
Great work! All the sounds are good. I'd like the orange. 👍😃😎🤘
power amp that uses push pull needs a 12ax7 to split the signal
So such amp at louder levels pushes the power tubes phase inverter
the sound you get isn’t quiet Power tubes break up ;)
& + at louder level you must ad the speaker optimal loudness
they tend to add their distortion . frequencies .
its sensitivity its optimum volume of expression has a different braking point.
& its the biggest change in sounds overall.
I tend not to fall into such categories as Better or bad vs good.
to me its a lauded term. If it sounds good its good.
if it fits in . than better .
Experiment with your gear & see where it takes you .
The main point …
Cool riff in Man ! love it !
I admit that I skipped right to the Dual Rec since I have one also, but I would say the quieter level was better overall. I record mine the same way. Playing excessively loud is probably overrated, especially for home recording purposes. Years ago I called Mesa directly and asked them what a "decent" volume level would be needed to a good recording volume for any of their amps (all pre-IRs and going direct, mind you) and I was told "not that loud - slightly loud is more than enough". So take that for what it's worth.
Thank you for putting this to rest! I see far too many people using amps like this with attenuators to push them harder, not realizing these modern amps that are designed for preamp gain only, have extremely light duty transformers.. when you push an amp to the point that it’s overdriving the phase inverter and pushing the output, you are actually pushing more wattage than the amp is rated (amps wattage rating is measured just at the point before clipping). As a result of really pushing these light duty transformers into attenuators above their rating, they are slowly cooking the output transformer, shortening tube life, and cooking the PCBs in the amps, Knowing that too may think this is “cool” is why I shy away from the used amp market for the most part. Not saving anything when you consider what it will cost to repair from being misused and abused.
Attenuators were designed for non-master volume amps back in the day that were pretty much overbuilt, with heavy transformers that could dissipate the heat a lot better.
As someone whose worked as a tech I can say it’s made me a lot of money, but I feel bad knowing it could have been avoided.
Quiet is definitely better to my ears. I was just testing tones on my dual rectifier and was surprised at how much better it sounds at lower gain settings in a mix. Now I’ll have to try the volume too.
I prefer them quiet. Great video! I've been experimenting with my amps at home using an attenuator and without, and I'm actually feeling like the attenuator is not needed. As long as the volume control allows for a quiet level.
Modern metal gain comes from the preamp section and actually requires a really clean and tight power section to sound best, but classic sounding tube amp breakup is achieved by distorting the power section. The lesson to take from this vid is: volume affects how the amp sounds and can be experimented with for more variety of sounds.
I noticed a difference on the Marshall. It was fizzy on lower volumes, more mids on louder volumes. But an adjustment on the e.q. would have evened it out.
I mean, if its a high gain sound I find its best to find the right spot between 4-6. Its has a lot to do w the change in the feel of the guitar as I play it too I'd say. On the other hand I have a Fender and a Vox that don't distort unless you turn them up you know.
Very interesting, Rockerverb handles loud settings best, i think, bit thats not fair, as i`m a big fan of this amp. Would be really interested in a video about how the attenuator in the Rockerverb MK3 affects the sound. I also own one, but would be nice to hear your opinion on it.
I guess something in between, but it depends on the preamps for the mic. If we put a higher gain for the mics when the amp is more silent, the sensitivity of the mic preamps is higher and can color the sound. On the contrary, loud amp, more silent mics, we don't reap the benefits of that grit the mic preamps otherwise offer. That's why at lower amp volume, the sound of the amp seems a bit more saturated at the higher frequencies.
Interesting points! Thanks!
I'm surprised you didn't turn up the amps more. The "loud" level was less than halfway up on the master (yes that's still loud with a speaker, but you're using a load box...). It's no surprise the difference was subtle.
I suggest doing a follow-up with three volume levels: quiet (as in this clip), medium (just over halfway up) and cranked (all the way up).
Also, in an actual live or recording scenario, you would adjust the preamp gain and tone controls when cranking up the amp. For example, on the JCM800, you could reduce the preamp gain when the power tubes start clipping, which makes the preamp brighter (due to the bright cap), adding sparkle, as the poweramp gets darker.
I would love to see some really old-school amps, the classic crunch amplifiers, Fender '59s, Vox 30, etc. Do you need to use extreme volume/EQ settings there as well? Or maybe they were the ones where this "crank it up" myth was originating from?
Wow, that Orange was just consistent and reliable. I prefer the lower more "open" sounds.
Grat video, thank you!
My preference goes to the "Quiet" sound,
anyway "De gustibus non est disputandum".
On the JCM2000 DSL2000 , the sound CHANGES very very much when you are let's say 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 and above .... but stays the same at levels 4 or less...
On my Orange OR15 the tone stays about the same but introduces more gain and compression.
I dig the Engls, I have a 50w engl tube, but I feel like I rarely, if ever, see anyone else that has one
Best thing I can say about the mark V 25 is the treble.. completely changes the sound (lead channel)
fantastic analysis. 🎸🔥🤘
Dude you always have really good riffs. I'm jealous I didn't write them lol.
It has been my experience that all tube or valve amps sound different. Each one has it's own little thing that makes it sound better than the other.
Killer rifs, man! 🤘💪
Amps have a sweet spot like a lot of things. I always try to hit the sweet spot. My girlfriend appreciates this too.
Hahahaha good one
For us who know, a Plexi circuit is the Holy Grail of hi gain when its pushed. Non master volume, output tube distortion of anything like a Bassman is key.
Preamp gain is mush in comparison. Output section of modern amps are basically power amp.
Its subjective, but if you havnt played through a full up Plexi NMV, you are missing out
Love quiet for hi-gain sounds and pushing a master section to get dirty cleans and juicy crunches. Hello from Russia. ❤
Thanks for doing this! Way LESS difference than I tought. Subtle shades of how much compression and loudness one prefers. Could probably be tweaked with other parameters. Cheers
I liked them both in high volume, and in quite volume. For a great tone with a little of both, i would play it somewhat in the middle of what you set them to. Kinda what you said😊
Yeah it will be exiting with some other amps aswell. And same other amps i would like to hear in a similar test is amps I’ve got:
1. Engl Fireball 25
2. Marshall JVM410H
3. EVH 5150 III 6l6 50w
And some amps i’m looking for:
4. Mesa Badlander el34 50w
5. Laney IRT60H
6. Bugera 6262 infinium
Please consider my choices. They would be great interesting and quit different sounding overall👍🏻
Thanx Jon for exiting vids that almost everytime is usefull (for me that is) and makes a different! Cheees from Sweden🇸🇪🍻🤘🏻
Not a really acurate comparison, you would need to put that master volume on 10 to really notice the difference, since all those amps have standard master volumes, that are after the preamp tubes but !before! the phase splitter tube. So by turning the master down you massivly reduce the phase splitter distortion, in almost all old marshalls for example the distortion comes from hitting the phase splitter hard, not the 12ax7 overdriving.
The Newer amps or modern amps sound at low volumes good enough.
But older amps really begin to shine at a certain volume.
By the way, in which mode were the Rectifier? Diode or Pentode?