Pretty much the ultimate tone here. :) What are the chances you take requests? I’d love to here and Engl paired with a Marshall.. pairing amps that sound different interests me.. or like an Engl and Orange
I take one guitar, make a double track (left right) with one amplifier and cabinet, then take a second guitar with a longer scale, make another double track with another amplifier and cabinet, and can also take a third baritone guitar for 5 and 6 rhythm tracks. I like this combinations: Diezel+(Bogner Uberschall, Bogner Ecstasy, Mesa Rectifier, Engl Fireball), Marshall+(Orange Rockverb, Supro)
For me, double tracking with a different amp on each side is the best. Having those slight variations in playing from left to right gives you a feeling of width, but having two slightly different variations in playing on the SAME side just makes it muddy. It also gives you space to add real depth to the track by layering your mix with different parts that you can bring in and out to make the track more dynamic. For the basic rhythm tone, dual-tracking is the best foundation.
Love the sound of the final example with the symmetrically ducked amp tones. Sounds more consistent than having entirely different amps on the L and R but still has the massive stereo widening effect because of the differing waveforms on either side. Look forward to more amp blending stuff, cheers!
My thoughts exactly! Sequestering one amp to each side sounded far too asymmetrical for my taste. But, did resolve some of the phasing issues. Definitely going to be testing out this technique in my next project
I'm gonna try that -5db tick. It's still massive and still has clarity. I just love how quadtracked guitars sound on the palm mutes. It feels like there's more gain that there really is.
In the past, I've had some success quad tracking by panning the 2nd pair slightly more towards the centre. Quite liked the combination of 6505 for main and a Hot Rodded Plexi as the second pair, to add a touch of brightness and chimey articulation. Peavey and Mesa is also a tried and true combo, so good job.
Wow. I absolutely loved this. I hope this video gains a bit of traction 'cause: a) they're iconic amps people love and b) you're showing them used in different methods that can REALLY contextualize HOW to use them to create interesting tones. People need to know this and train how to hear it. For me, this video is actually HUGELY beneficial as I learn to track and shape tone once my ideas are born. Absolutely love this - and I agree with some here that the dB adjusted quad tracking really made this sound colossal. Though the differences in the blends can be subtle, they can be the thing that makes the difference for really bringing a track to life. Good stuff as always, Jon, I can't wait to hear more in this series.
Its very clear here and also in my testing in the studio over the years that one amp has to take the front in the mix while the other is for blending at around -6dB, this always seems to give it that large sound and a much better stereo spread when quad tracking... Awesome test man, maybe also try the method where you use a more crunch articulate amp under a high gain when quad tracking, love this for bands that have articulate chords and strumming patterns!
Fascinating. I used to blend a Triple Rectifier and a 6505+ in a quad tracking setup. Either that or I’d EQ the triple rectifier for two of the tracks. In recent times, it’s been primarily a blend of the Randall V2 and the Randall Diavlo, again, with some additional EQ adjustments and also the 6505+ from time to time.
This was awesome. I'm glad you showed a few different approaches. I've been using two different amps+IRs on the two different stereo channels. My current favourite is a VHT Pittbull with an Elmwood Modena M90. I guess the preferred technique comes down to personal taste and musical genre. Thanks for showing all the different approaches, and this came at a good time because a bandmate was wondering about how a 5150/6505 would work with his Dual Rectifier!
That video is a blessing. Thank You, Jon I came across it when it was released but didn't think I would need to stray away from my usual methods. I was wrong, big time. Will try them out tomorrow
The answer should be (for me at least) that every track should use a combo of dual and quad tracked for each song. Metal songs are often now optimized for maximum carnage all the time but human brain and ear fatigue means if you hear a quad tracked intro and the tone maintains "on 11" for the rest of the song (unless it's grindcore 1 minute song) you aclimate to that and by the end of the song it doesn't sound heavy anymore. Songs should have dynamic peaks and valleys and choices have to be made to ensure that. For instance you can start with quad, slim to a single track for verse, go dual for pre chorus and back to quad for chorus. Use Dual for intricate bridges and quad for breakdowns and heavy outros. Brick songs sound boring AF, dynamics is where it's at, even if for metal that variation is smaller, it should still exist. Great video btw
dropping the level down 5db for each amp on either side sounded best to me. i like the approach. it allowed each amp to have its own sonic space and character, whilst benefiting from having some flavour of the other amp to fill it out and colour the tone a bit more
I think the biggest thing is that quad tracking is a bigger sound but loses definition compared to straight double tracking. In my experience, you can use automation to bring the quad tracking more into the fore when you need things bigger and relax back a bit when you need the tight and definite sounds of double tracking. I usually set up a couple of groups in Cubase with a good compressor to do this for me with some straight fader position automation to more or less do it. Fine tuning required depending on when and where, but that's a rudimentary method I go for.
On our last album, I used quad tracking - 4 separate takes into 4 different amps. You have to choose the amp pairs carefully but it's worth it. Very happy with the results.
You pretty much just confirmed what I have also found: Double-tracked guitars retain their note-definition and just sound punchier. That doesn't mean there isn't a time and place to use quad-tracking such as a huge wall of sound or heavy palm-muted/chord section but overall the sound of double-tracking is where it's at for me!
Thank you for playing different styles of riffs and not just one type of riff and leaving it at that lol this is the way you demo an amp sound in my opinion. Chords, Palm mutes, single not riffs, breakdown chugs. Alllllll of it. Cheers
So I have an Axe FX III and have been experimenting with quad tracking. Basically double tracking with one patch I made. Been experimenting with one amp to two different cabs and one of the cabs with a 'Right Post Delay' of about 11ms (chain is amp -> delay -> cab for Right and amp -> cab for Left). So far, sounds amazing! Next I'll be trying two amps to one cab and two amps to two cabs using the same technique. I find that using something like the Axe FX really makes this sort of experimentation quite easy! Have yet to really put it in a full mix. So I'm sure there will be a lot more adjustments to come.
I watched this video yesterday evening, whilst enjoying some fine Belgian beers. The extreme nerd-level of this topic made me roar with laughter. Great fun! Great entertainment! Great job! 1 day later - in a more serious mood - I did some experiments with blending tones like you described and I learned a lot along the way. Blending is THE way to thick & smooth metal tones. The only downside to this all ... is that I probably have to buy some more gear. ;-( ( and by the way ... also some more beer ;-) )
So I tend to use a blend of dual tracking and quad tracking. I tend to put one amp on each side and then duck out two di's when a riff gets more intricate, but go back to quad tracking when everything needs to be full ham. The only real exception is during bridges/solos where I tend to do both amps on both sides and just drop volume on opposite amps. Also I found that when quad tracking I only set two tracks hard left and right and two tracks kinda in between hard left/right and center. This works well when you need a slight delay effect as well to help create movement in surround sound. I tend to delay my hard left/right signals a few ms behind the center-ish signals
For phasing issues I just grabbed an impulse at the start of the track and then when you render the tracks you will see how far the impulses "travelled" from each other and then you can pull those until they match. Afterwards you can grab a phase rotation plugin (Reaper already has that in JSFX for example) and you can adjust it until it gets tight again. During a sale I grabbed MAutoAlign from Melda which does this automatically for you - mostly improves, sometimes you have to adjust it. Oh, and when you do the impulse (which can be just a very short spike), you should lower the gain. High gains just create a mush of wave that is impossible to figure out. I believe that saturation should not change phase, but haven't proven it.
1 amp each side is great. Recently did a tough guy hardcore EP and you inspired me to get it reamped with a rectifier and the 5153 and it sounded massive. I was worried it would be weird but I like having slightly different tones each side but I really liked the the character. Only double tracked through, struggle to get quads properly tight
John you are definitely one of my favorite UA-cam thank you for this video. It's cool to see you mix stuff up like this and these two amps go together like milk and cookies , goes down so smooth
10:22 personally I would have tried an overdrive/boost before make this decision because I do like how "big" the quad track sounds but I agree the definition wasn't as good as the dual track. 11:00 I have done something like this before, however what I did was use a "main" amp tone and then the 2nd amp as a filler and blended it in the amount I wanted on both sides. For example, I used a Dual Rectifier with a V30 as the main tone left and right then I blended in an Orange Rockerverb with a SwampThang speaker to blend in some "thick" mids so the level of the rockerverb was lower on both sides. (all amp sims and IRs, I can't afford all that nice equipment) I took the idea from Kristian Khole and it worked a treat. Next time I might try a Rectifier and HM2 blend to make a nasty mix.
Double track is the way. In quad tracking the punch fades away, sound becomes soft like cotton wool due to certain frequencies cancelling each other out.
Agreed. It's really good for big, "wall of sound" stuff, but tends to lend toward less metal, more rock crunch stuff IMO. As gain goes up, you really need more focus and fewer layers certainly helps.
I agree but with one exception: when the guitarrist is REALLY good and tight. Then I can quadtrack using way less gain on each take and it sounds massive. But it has to be "Jeff Loomis" level of good. In 15 years of studio I've worked with dozens of great guitarrists, but only two that could pull this off.
I see your point. However, as always there's a place. I was surprised when I heard Virvum's Luminance album because those guits are quad tracked but still massive and tight. Plus that particular guitar sound is chunky and glossy, but not harsh in any way. The quads added a nice thickening effect. In short: fat but still precise. Helps that the performances are basically identical lol. The thing is if I'm looking at tone demos, I prefer double tracking. It's easier to pick out aspects of the sonic signature of a rig vs being fooled that it's huge because of quad tracking, if that makes sense. Cotton is a good analogy though. During chugs and chords quad tracking is generally a softer, warmer sound. Great stuff
@@cmd_f5 I will take a listen to it at some point, I'm always in need of extra knowledge. I'm sure quad can be tight and good sounding, i do not disagree on it, but i don't think i have ever encountered it sounding good. Perhaps i have, but my playlist is way too huge. Lamb of God and Decapitated are my favs, but i have no idea how they were tracked. Guess I'm lacking proper experience..? It's probably that it's hard to go wrong with double tracking, because it's far more easier and forgiving to errors than quad tracking. There's also 1 thing about me that may render my original post useless. I seem to prefer 75-85% panning more than 100% with dual tracks. I can't explain why that is, but it seems just right for me.
I really like your channel man, you're so upbeat and excited to do these demos and I know they take a ton of time, so I really just wanted to say thanks for doing what you do John. You are a gem! EDIT: OH and you should quad track with two octave tracks as the quad, and show everyone how cool that can sound for heavy stuff :D
That's one of the most informative videos I've seen ina while. I actually liked double tracking with one amp of each side the most, and I didn't see that coming to be honest. Gonna try this with my ampsims. Thank you so much for this channel!
A cool trick from AC / DC is the use of reverb. The reverb from the left guitar into the right side, and the reverb from the right guitar into the left side. It sounds even bigger. Cool huh? 😄
If re-amping using DI's with different amps it's definitely possible to ensure no (slight) phase issues. This can be accomplished by adding a clicks snippet in front of each DI, then re-Amp. After recording adjust each track to align with each other by the recorded clicks to the grid. Note: You'll also notice latency on the recorded tracks by visually referencing the DI click (which should be on the grid). Once aligned ensure the phase are correct in the event 180 out. Done!
Hi John and thanks for the great quality content you're providing ! Another approach I'm also using as "in between" your 2 and 4 tracks is to use 4 tracks (same amp) but using two different guitars. It's a good compromise, not having the massive sounf difference in bewteeen amps you keep the guitars focused and "in your face" sounding, that you usually lose with two amps. The two different guitars providing more subtle differences they will blend in a more natural way and keep a good note definition while adding some depht. I usually use very differents guitars like Alder + passives / Mahogany + Acitives
Nice comparison. I've found through the years that when quad tracking guitars, it's quite versatile to use different cabinets instead of amps (and/or cab speakers). Additionally, each recorded guitar is a separate layered recording to avoid phase issues. The quantization inconsistencies can be fixed in post production. I'm using Sonar and it has a neat radius algorithm for avoiding damaging the waveform. Now the scrutiny part: I believe that no matter what we say here, the most famous productions worldwide do edit the tracked guitars in post to quantize the recording perfectly to the drums (and vice versa). In the end, it's how it sounds to the audience, not holding onto some moral principles.
I prefer the format to be both amps on each side, with one dominant respectively. Also, don’t forget about triple tracking; left center & right, a la Metallica albums. Center typically playing the root notes of the riff. Blend request: Mesa Mark V35 & Mini Rectifier
That's interesting. I've been doing that for a while now and it sounds awesome. I'm using a dual rectifier and a jcm800, I use the jcm800 at a lower volume to get a crunch tone for boosting the dual rectifier on the left side, and a higher gain (but not too high) for right side. The jcm 1 is panned at 100% left and 2 is 75% right. And the rectifier is at 60% left and 94% right. The right side has a little bit less gain. Then I play around with the master volumes to make it all more or less even. I don't know if I explained all of this correclty, but that's how I've been using this technique.
Absolutely. My choice too. We have a Marshall/Randall combination of two guitarists in the band and it sounds great to hear the Marshall from the left and the Randall from the right.
UA-cam just introduced me to your channel my dude, so far pretty solid. Was watching the vid on the schecter 9 string yesterday, sounds great. Wish i could get my hellraiser8 to sound that good. Wanted to add that the peavey sound is timeless. I used to love mesa boogie, then i got into 6505 and i just love that output.
Your preferred methods are my favorite methods too. The guitars sound wider with a different amp on each side (or taking the lead on each side in case of quad tracking).
Thank you for the video- it was very cool to hear the differences. I think that the quad tracked with dominant amps sounded really great. Second to that , imo, was the straight forward quad tracking with two amps.
same here! I have tried this a few times with some plugins and it always sounds dreadful, most likely because the same DI is going through the 2 amps on each side. One plugin combination that works flawlessly and sounds really good it to use the Otto Audio II II II II with the Grindstein plugin. Those pair really well and they don't have any phase issues when stacked on top of each other using their own IRs (most likely because they use MPT ones). So basically what i do when using those plugins together is to have one stereo pair of hard panned DIs going into a stereo instance of each plugin. I usually have the II II II II as the dominant sound with scooped settings, and have the Grindstein fill out most of the mids and lower in the mix.
The method that works best is the one that suits the song/project. All of these clips sounded great and has its own merits for sure. Request for the next video: Orange and Marshall blended. I’ve used this combination a few times and like they way they have their own space in the mix.
Double track with two different but similar sounding amps and guitars, pan hard left and right. Add a third different guitar and amp in the middle for boosted rythm sections. Anything more is just mush and phasing issues.
I have always liked the stereo way, whether its blending one signal split into two amps one panned left and one right or double track and the left track is one amp and right track is the other. It allows the differences between the amps to be picked up and feels more like having two amps in a room. The only problem is the dynamics become more separate (depending on the amps) so it isn't as tight sounding on palm mutes.
It’s an interesting idea but I will stick with double tracking, as you say it sounds clearer and more defined, but this idea has open another universe of possibilities mate!!! Thanks
I kept waiting to here some Corey Taylor vocals on those tracks, but then it kinda switched to some Killswitch or something, sweet riffs John! This is the only way I record guitar.
Sounds brutal either way! Awesome riffage! For double tracking shifts I've used 15-25ms shifts to get that huge sounds of double tracks. It's does a reasonable job of simulating playing the same track twice.
Noted; add a doubler to all quad cortex presets (except for lead tones?) for more mass to the sound. Pan left and right for stereo, or use different amps on a splitter and double those, panning left and right a bit?
Thank you John!! Another great video! The way you approached all the options was very systematic and I am sure this video will serve as a reference for many home studio owners. Keep it up !! cheers
My main method for amp sims is a single-tracked bright amp (think orange rockerverb) and then a doubletracked amp with very punchy bass and mids (think 5150) and it's not bad at all.
This was a real eye opener! Can you achieve similar levels of tonal variety by blending different mics instead of different amps? What about just using one amp, and quadtracking with each track having different EQ/compression settings.
Double tracking with different amps on left vs. right sounded best. Would love to see double tracking using the same amp but with different cab/impluse responses on left vs. right to see what combinations works best for rhythm vs. clean vs. high-gain lead tones 👍
mixing the quad tracks volumes to taste like in your last example sounds like the way to go....and even spreading them out just a bit in the stereo field gives a more full sound...as far as the phased sound from the same di tracks on each side....i've tried and tried many times to adjust the timing alignment all without success.
I think that double tracking is better for very tight and fast riffing, though not always. Quad tracking just sounds so much bigger though. Notes have a kind of chorus effect, it kind of warms up and softens everything in a good way. The chords and open notes swell and the chugs are massive. I like the Both amps on both sides, volume lowered on one of the amps to taste. I gotta say though, the clip with one DI going through both amps sounded kinda nasty and gritty. Really adds a nice grunge feel to the guitars. IMO all of this sounded great. I'd quad track more but I'm honestly too lazy sometimes. Hahaha! Cheers Jon
I AM BLOWN AWAY BY THE HUGE SOUND, ARE THE YORK IR RES. THAT MUCH BETTER THAN THE IR CAB'S IN FRACTAL, IN OTHER WORDS SHOULD I SPEND THE MONEY. IT SURE DID SOUND SO MUCH DIFFERENT THAN WOULD I HEAR FROM MY AXE 111. THANKS FOR THE SHARE!
so, i prefer the sound of double track of one amp due to clarity and cut in a mix. the guitars would usually be a little lower in final mix with vocals, drums/bass etc and i feel double track is more than enough. for two amps, i prefer one amp on one side and the other on the other side, like you'd experience if it were a live performance. if i mix a live band with two guitarist's some times i pan each guitar a touch to either side. sounds and riff recorded in video sounded massive. great video. ever heard of an Australian band called Grinspoon, check out lost control, dead cat 3 times, champion
6dB is where you eliminate phase issues. the -5dB section had the least amount of weird aliasing and fuzzy overtones. next time see if 1 more dB helps. i know it sounds silly, but it's science
i'd also find an amp that sounds good boosted and pair it with one that sounds good without being boosted. get them in more different frequency ranges.
What about regular double tracking and then a different third chain completely mono in the center? Has anyone tried something similar? Triple Tracking? Awesome work as always!
Hello, could you please indicate for this video and for the future the following data that I think is crucial to know for this test and for all those relating to the opening and the stereo balancing of 2 or more guitar signals? I mean to indicate the exact value of the balance of each of the tracks (indicated in percentage from 0 to 100 for both the L and R channels), since the volume of each signal in each channel (determined by the balance), affects the Dramatically how we perceive the rest of the instruments, the mix in general and the sensation of widening and differentiation between different amplifiers. Please tell me what panning percentages you used in this very interesting video, to be able to draw conclusions and decisions regarding how to apply it. The information about panning is vital to me. Thank you
I really like the sound of quad tracking 2 of the Same amps on each side. Tone I think was the best out my TV and phone speakers.. That being said, I do agree about the double tracking it does sound more defined.. I'd prefer using that in a mix typically. The phasing you are going over later on I can kinda tell when you mix two amps together on the same pan it sounds? Muddy? Depending on the metal you are making that might be a good thing.
Great video, love stuff like this! I think with quad tracking, I prefer blending the amps on each side. Its subtle but if you quad track with only one amp on each side then you can just pick up some uneven characteristics. I can't remember which amp it was, but I could just feel the bite of the palm mutes more on the left over the right, like they needed compressing slightly to stop the boom compared with the other side - but honestly who can be bothered to try and level that out in the fine detail!
Nicely done sir.. definitely 2 great amps to mix together as their toners compliment each other very well. Any thoughts on bringing in a Splawn Nitro on the show?
Awesome, i liked all the quad tracked options the most with these two amps, there was more bite present with the quad tracking method, although i didn’t hear it smear the definition noticeably. Great tutorial and song/riff👍🤘🏼🎸
Thank you - great and instructive video. With all these Amps, you're in blending heaven. Might wonder what an orange sounds like paired with engl or h&k?!
What are your thoughts regarding using this technique paired with the Fredman mic technique? Would the quad track essentially be 8 tracks due to the double mic or would you consider quad tracked using 2 takes of the Fredman Technique?
Man, the quad tracked Version with one amp loeder on each side really sounded killer. I would love to hear a blend of the Laney Ironheart and the Orange dark Terror like that, I think they could fit very very good together
To my taste, quad tracks have a little muffled quality in transients, while not adding much power to it; doubles sound cleaner, punchier, more aggressive. Maybe there is some use for quads for large open chords sorts of, but not for the busy parts for sure. Blended amps, when one is over another, have some weird phasing issues. One amp in L and the second in R has a little more potential though, can sound nice. I believe Slikpknot has always recorded like that.
VERY GOOD VIDEO, INTERESTING COMBINATION OF SOUNDS. COULD YOU MAKE A QUAD TRACK VIDEO WITH MESA BOOGIE RECTIFIER AND ENGL FIREBALL 100. THESE TWO AMPS COULD PASTE VERY WELL!!!
Cool video! I think double tracked sounded the best and that is my observation also in own recordings. Quad tracking gets messy and also takes more time. The benefit of larger sound can be somewhat achieved with mixing. It would be nice to hear a blend with a Marshall as one of the amps.
i think this amp combo is exactly what gojira did on the from mars to sirius album. i like the left/right split per amp with 1DI on each side the best, it sounds the most alive imo. your blend method is a nice in between thing though. little tip to anyone who now wants to try quad tracking: you better practice the shit out of your parts, if your playing isn't spot on it devolves into mush very quickly. and the more intricate the guitar parts are the less sense quad tracking makes imo. it sounds bigger and fuller, but you lose some detail.
So, what do you think? Which method sounded the best and which method should I use in future amp blend videos?? Cheers!
Quadtracking with 4 different amps: 2 American hi-gain, 2 british sound
Pretty much the ultimate tone here. :) What are the chances you take requests? I’d love to here and Engl paired with a Marshall.. pairing amps that sound different interests me.. or like an Engl and Orange
I prefer the quad-tracking with the dB dropped that you did last.
Hey John, how make pop punk sound?
I take one guitar, make a double track (left right) with one amplifier and cabinet, then take a second guitar with a longer scale, make another double track with another amplifier and cabinet, and can also take a third baritone guitar for 5 and 6 rhythm tracks.
I like this combinations: Diezel+(Bogner Uberschall, Bogner Ecstasy, Mesa Rectifier, Engl Fireball), Marshall+(Orange Rockverb, Supro)
For me, double tracking with a different amp on each side is the best. Having those slight variations in playing from left to right gives you a feeling of width, but having two slightly different variations in playing on the SAME side just makes it muddy. It also gives you space to add real depth to the track by layering your mix with different parts that you can bring in and out to make the track more dynamic. For the basic rhythm tone, dual-tracking is the best foundation.
I can appreciate that. For me, the quadtracking just suits my ocd better as it sounds more even across the stereo spectrum
I've been recording like this as well.
Love the sound of the final example with the symmetrically ducked amp tones. Sounds more consistent than having entirely different amps on the L and R but still has the massive stereo widening effect because of the differing waveforms on either side.
Look forward to more amp blending stuff, cheers!
My thoughts exactly! Sequestering one amp to each side sounded far too asymmetrical for my taste. But, did resolve some of the phasing issues. Definitely going to be testing out this technique in my next project
I'm gonna try that -5db tick. It's still massive and still has clarity. I just love how quadtracked guitars sound on the palm mutes. It feels like there's more gain that there really is.
In the past, I've had some success quad tracking by panning the 2nd pair slightly more towards the centre. Quite liked the combination of 6505 for main and a Hot Rodded Plexi as the second pair, to add a touch of brightness and chimey articulation. Peavey and Mesa is also a tried and true combo, so good job.
This. And using less gain on those, and dialing in what fits the mix rather than anything you would want as a workable live sound.
@@FromZero2HD Totally. The Plexi had no boost, was just sorta...."crunchy".
Indeed. On this note, I've also been experimenting clean with washy verb with no verb gain guitar for leads. Try it out!
You know, I actually use this same method! I think I'll try combining it with that -5db reduction Jon demonstrates at the end here ;)
I agree I generally dont quad track, but when I do I hard pan L and R and then the "3" & "4" around 80%
Your ultimate blend strategy is the one way I never thought to do it and is now my fave. Thanks dude!
Wow. I absolutely loved this. I hope this video gains a bit of traction 'cause:
a) they're iconic amps people love and
b) you're showing them used in different methods that can REALLY contextualize HOW to use them to create interesting tones. People need to know this and train how to hear it.
For me, this video is actually HUGELY beneficial as I learn to track and shape tone once my ideas are born. Absolutely love this - and I agree with some here that the dB adjusted quad tracking really made this sound colossal. Though the differences in the blends can be subtle, they can be the thing that makes the difference for really bringing a track to life. Good stuff as always, Jon, I can't wait to hear more in this series.
The double track with rectifier on the left and 6505 on the right was by far my favorite.
Its very clear here and also in my testing in the studio over the years that one amp has to take the front in the mix while the other is for blending at around -6dB, this always seems to give it that large sound and a much better stereo spread when quad tracking...
Awesome test man, maybe also try the method where you use a more crunch articulate amp under a high gain when quad tracking, love this for bands that have articulate chords and strumming patterns!
Fascinating. I used to blend a Triple Rectifier and a 6505+ in a quad tracking setup. Either that or I’d EQ the triple rectifier for two of the tracks. In recent times, it’s been primarily a blend of the Randall V2 and the Randall Diavlo, again, with some additional EQ adjustments and also the 6505+ from time to time.
Yeah, that last test is the winner in my book. Massive, tight, sound there. Will definitely be testing this out on my next project. Awesome video
This was awesome.
I'm glad you showed a few different approaches. I've been using two different amps+IRs on the two different stereo channels. My current favourite is a VHT Pittbull with an Elmwood Modena M90.
I guess the preferred technique comes down to personal taste and musical genre. Thanks for showing all the different approaches, and this came at a good time because a bandmate was wondering about how a 5150/6505 would work with his Dual Rectifier!
That video is a blessing. Thank You, Jon
I came across it when it was released but didn't think I would need to stray away from my usual methods. I was wrong, big time. Will try them out tomorrow
The answer should be (for me at least) that every track should use a combo of dual and quad tracked for each song. Metal songs are often now optimized for maximum carnage all the time but human brain and ear fatigue means if you hear a quad tracked intro and the tone maintains "on 11" for the rest of the song (unless it's grindcore 1 minute song) you aclimate to that and by the end of the song it doesn't sound heavy anymore. Songs should have dynamic peaks and valleys and choices have to be made to ensure that. For instance you can start with quad, slim to a single track for verse, go dual for pre chorus and back to quad for chorus. Use Dual for intricate bridges and quad for breakdowns and heavy outros. Brick songs sound boring AF, dynamics is where it's at, even if for metal that variation is smaller, it should still exist. Great video btw
dropping the level down 5db for each amp on either side sounded best to me. i like the approach. it allowed each amp to have its own sonic space and character, whilst benefiting from having some flavour of the other amp to fill it out and colour the tone a bit more
I think the biggest thing is that quad tracking is a bigger sound but loses definition compared to straight double tracking. In my experience, you can use automation to bring the quad tracking more into the fore when you need things bigger and relax back a bit when you need the tight and definite sounds of double tracking. I usually set up a couple of groups in Cubase with a good compressor to do this for me with some straight fader position automation to more or less do it. Fine tuning required depending on when and where, but that's a rudimentary method I go for.
On our last album, I used quad tracking - 4 separate takes into 4 different amps. You have to choose the amp pairs carefully but it's worth it. Very happy with the results.
What's the album is it on UA-cam or Spotify? I would love to hear what you've done
You pretty much just confirmed what I have also found: Double-tracked guitars retain their note-definition and just sound punchier. That doesn't mean there isn't a time and place to use quad-tracking such as a huge wall of sound or heavy palm-muted/chord section but overall the sound of double-tracking is where it's at for me!
Thank you for playing different styles of riffs and not just one type of riff and leaving it at that lol this is the way you demo an amp sound in my opinion. Chords, Palm mutes, single not riffs, breakdown chugs. Alllllll of it.
Cheers
So I have an Axe FX III and have been experimenting with quad tracking. Basically double tracking with one patch I made. Been experimenting with one amp to two different cabs and one of the cabs with a 'Right Post Delay' of about 11ms (chain is amp -> delay -> cab for Right and amp -> cab for Left). So far, sounds amazing! Next I'll be trying two amps to one cab and two amps to two cabs using the same technique. I find that using something like the Axe FX really makes this sort of experimentation quite easy! Have yet to really put it in a full mix. So I'm sure there will be a lot more adjustments to come.
I watched this video yesterday evening, whilst enjoying some fine Belgian beers. The extreme nerd-level of this topic made me roar with laughter. Great fun! Great entertainment! Great job!
1 day later - in a more serious mood - I did some experiments with blending tones like you described and I learned a lot along the way.
Blending is THE way to thick & smooth metal tones.
The only downside to this all ... is that I probably have to buy some more gear. ;-(
( and by the way ... also some more beer ;-) )
So I tend to use a blend of dual tracking and quad tracking. I tend to put one amp on each side and then duck out two di's when a riff gets more intricate, but go back to quad tracking when everything needs to be full ham. The only real exception is during bridges/solos where I tend to do both amps on both sides and just drop volume on opposite amps. Also I found that when quad tracking I only set two tracks hard left and right and two tracks kinda in between hard left/right and center. This works well when you need a slight delay effect as well to help create movement in surround sound. I tend to delay my hard left/right signals a few ms behind the center-ish signals
For phasing issues I just grabbed an impulse at the start of the track and then when you render the tracks you will see how far the impulses "travelled" from each other and then you can pull those until they match. Afterwards you can grab a phase rotation plugin (Reaper already has that in JSFX for example) and you can adjust it until it gets tight again. During a sale I grabbed MAutoAlign from Melda which does this automatically for you - mostly improves, sometimes you have to adjust it. Oh, and when you do the impulse (which can be just a very short spike), you should lower the gain. High gains just create a mush of wave that is impossible to figure out. I believe that saturation should not change phase, but haven't proven it.
The final method sounded amazing, the best of all worlds
1 amp each side is great. Recently did a tough guy hardcore EP and you inspired me to get it reamped with a rectifier and the 5153 and it sounded massive. I was worried it would be weird but I like having slightly different tones each side but I really liked the the character. Only double tracked through, struggle to get quads properly tight
John you are definitely one of my favorite UA-cam thank you for this video. It's cool to see you mix stuff up like this and these two amps go together like milk and cookies , goes down so smooth
I learned new things here, trying them soon. As always, your tones are majestic!
10:22 personally I would have tried an overdrive/boost before make this decision because I do like how "big" the quad track sounds but I agree the definition wasn't as good as the dual track.
11:00 I have done something like this before, however what I did was use a "main" amp tone and then the 2nd amp as a filler and blended it in the amount I wanted on both sides.
For example, I used a Dual Rectifier with a V30 as the main tone left and right then I blended in an Orange Rockerverb with a SwampThang speaker to blend in some "thick" mids so the level of the rockerverb was lower on both sides. (all amp sims and IRs, I can't afford all that nice equipment) I took the idea from Kristian Khole and it worked a treat. Next time I might try a Rectifier and HM2 blend to make a nasty mix.
Quad track on the same amp wasn't as tight as double tracked. But quad tracking with 2 different amps and four separate takes sounded excellent!
Double track is the way.
In quad tracking the punch fades away, sound becomes soft like cotton wool due to certain frequencies cancelling each other out.
I agree. Maybe it has it’s uses in big open chords vs tight fast rhythm parts
Agreed. It's really good for big, "wall of sound" stuff, but tends to lend toward less metal, more rock crunch stuff IMO. As gain goes up, you really need more focus and fewer layers certainly helps.
I agree but with one exception: when the guitarrist is REALLY good and tight. Then I can quadtrack using way less gain on each take and it sounds massive. But it has to be "Jeff Loomis" level of good. In 15 years of studio I've worked with dozens of great guitarrists, but only two that could pull this off.
I see your point. However, as always there's a place. I was surprised when I heard Virvum's Luminance album because those guits are quad tracked but still massive and tight. Plus that particular guitar sound is chunky and glossy, but not harsh in any way. The quads added a nice thickening effect. In short: fat but still precise. Helps that the performances are basically identical lol.
The thing is if I'm looking at tone demos, I prefer double tracking. It's easier to pick out aspects of the sonic signature of a rig vs being fooled that it's huge because of quad tracking, if that makes sense.
Cotton is a good analogy though. During chugs and chords quad tracking is generally a softer, warmer sound.
Great stuff
@@cmd_f5 I will take a listen to it at some point, I'm always in need of extra knowledge.
I'm sure quad can be tight and good sounding, i do not disagree on it, but i don't think i have ever encountered it sounding good. Perhaps i have, but my playlist is way too huge. Lamb of God and Decapitated are my favs, but i have no idea how they were tracked.
Guess I'm lacking proper experience..?
It's probably that it's hard to go wrong with double tracking, because it's far more easier and forgiving to errors than quad tracking.
There's also 1 thing about me that may render my original post useless.
I seem to prefer 75-85% panning more than 100% with dual tracks.
I can't explain why that is, but it seems just right for me.
I really like your channel man, you're so upbeat and excited to do these demos and I know they take a ton of time, so I really just wanted to say thanks for doing what you do John. You are a gem!
EDIT: OH and you should quad track with two octave tracks as the quad, and show everyone how cool that can sound for heavy stuff :D
Thanks for your comment! I really appreciate it!
That's one of the most informative videos I've seen ina while. I actually liked double tracking with one amp of each side the most, and I didn't see that coming to be honest. Gonna try this with my ampsims. Thank you so much for this channel!
Awesome! Cheers!
Hm, never thought to do the "dominant amp on each side" technique. Will have to try that.
Will try that too, tomorrow
A cool trick from AC / DC is the use of reverb. The reverb from the left guitar into the right side, and the reverb from the right guitar into the left side. It sounds even bigger. Cool huh? 😄
If re-amping using DI's with different amps it's definitely possible to ensure no (slight) phase issues. This can be accomplished by adding a clicks snippet in front of each DI, then re-Amp. After recording adjust each track to align with each other by the recorded clicks to the grid. Note: You'll also notice latency on the recorded tracks by visually referencing the DI click (which should be on the grid). Once aligned ensure the phase are correct in the event 180 out. Done!
Hi John and thanks for the great quality content you're providing ! Another approach I'm also using as "in between" your 2 and 4 tracks is to use 4 tracks (same amp) but using two different guitars. It's a good compromise, not having the massive sounf difference in bewteeen amps you keep the guitars focused and "in your face" sounding, that you usually lose with two amps. The two different guitars providing more subtle differences they will blend in a more natural way and keep a good note definition while adding some depht. I usually use very differents guitars like Alder + passives / Mahogany + Acitives
Nice comparison. I've found through the years that when quad tracking guitars, it's quite versatile to use different cabinets instead of amps (and/or cab speakers). Additionally, each recorded guitar is a separate layered recording to avoid phase issues. The quantization inconsistencies can be fixed in post production. I'm using Sonar and it has a neat radius algorithm for avoiding damaging the waveform. Now the scrutiny part: I believe that no matter what we say here, the most famous productions worldwide do edit the tracked guitars in post to quantize the recording perfectly to the drums (and vice versa). In the end, it's how it sounds to the audience, not holding onto some moral principles.
I prefer the format to be both amps on each side, with one dominant respectively.
Also, don’t forget about triple tracking; left center & right, a la Metallica albums. Center typically playing the root notes of the riff.
Blend request: Mesa Mark V35 & Mini Rectifier
That's interesting. I've been doing that for a while now and it sounds awesome. I'm using a dual rectifier and a jcm800, I use the jcm800 at a lower volume to get a crunch tone for boosting the dual rectifier on the left side, and a higher gain (but not too high) for right side. The jcm 1 is panned at 100% left and 2 is 75% right. And the rectifier is at 60% left and 94% right. The right side has a little bit less gain. Then I play around with the master volumes to make it all more or less even. I don't know if I explained all of this correclty, but that's how I've been using this technique.
I prefer double tracked tones to be honest, but I like how your quad tracking came out
Doubble tracking imo with 2 different amps, one amp on each side. Sounded more clear and tight. Cool video as always!
Absolutely. My choice too. We have a Marshall/Randall combination of two guitarists in the band and it sounds great to hear the Marshall from the left and the Randall from the right.
@@ladislavmalak444 cool! I will try that on our next recordings 👍🏼
UA-cam just introduced me to your channel my dude, so far pretty solid. Was watching the vid on the schecter 9 string yesterday, sounds great. Wish i could get my hellraiser8 to sound that good.
Wanted to add that the peavey sound is timeless. I used to love mesa boogie, then i got into 6505 and i just love that output.
Your preferred methods are my favorite methods too. The guitars sound wider with a different amp on each side (or taking the lead on each side in case of quad tracking).
I also enjoyed the side by side double tracking quite a lot.
Thank you for the video- it was very cool to hear the differences. I think that the quad tracked with dominant amps sounded really great. Second to that , imo, was the straight forward quad tracking with two amps.
I thought the double tracking with one amp on each side sounded the coolest.
same here
same here! I have tried this a few times with some plugins and it always sounds dreadful, most likely because the same DI is going through the 2 amps on each side.
One plugin combination that works flawlessly and sounds really good it to use the Otto Audio II II II II with the Grindstein plugin. Those pair really well and they don't have any phase issues when stacked on top of each other using their own IRs (most likely because they use MPT ones).
So basically what i do when using those plugins together is to have one stereo pair of hard panned DIs going into a stereo instance of each plugin. I usually have the II II II II as the dominant sound with scooped settings, and have the Grindstein fill out most of the mids and lower in the mix.
Agree yeah this really sounded meaty enough but with loads of throatiness that was really nice
I'd go with quad tracked chorus and double tracked verses sounds great btw 👌 👍
The method that works best is the one that suits the song/project. All of these clips sounded great and has its own merits for sure.
Request for the next video: Orange and Marshall blended.
I’ve used this combination a few times and like they way they have their own space in the mix.
Double track with two different but similar sounding amps and guitars, pan hard left and right. Add a third different guitar and amp in the middle for boosted rythm sections. Anything more is just mush and phasing issues.
I have always liked the stereo way, whether its blending one signal split into two amps one panned left and one right or double track and the left track is one amp and right track is the other. It allows the differences between the amps to be picked up and feels more like having two amps in a room. The only problem is the dynamics become more separate (depending on the amps) so it isn't as tight sounding on palm mutes.
It’s an interesting idea but I will stick with double tracking, as you say it sounds clearer and more defined, but this idea has open another universe of possibilities mate!!! Thanks
That sound is gonna break down walls! Quad tracking with db drop is best of both worlds.
Incredible video - going to try this with ENGL Ironball SE and Diezel VH4 pedal + Orange Pedal Baby
for me the tightest and most satisfying tone was the recto/6505 in just standard dual tracked. no quad track necessary imo. Nice job!
Thx for the video🤘very helpful! I like the 2trk vs 4trk
I like the different amp on each side
I kept waiting to here some Corey Taylor vocals on those tracks, but then it kinda switched to some Killswitch or something, sweet riffs John! This is the only way I record guitar.
Sounds brutal either way! Awesome riffage!
For double tracking shifts I've used 15-25ms shifts to get that huge sounds of double tracks. It's does a reasonable job of simulating playing the same track twice.
The End of Heartache was recorded with a 5150 and Framus Cobra I believe. Great tone on that track.
To tweak the phase of the tracks use the waves inphase plug-in
Noted; add a doubler to all quad cortex presets (except for lead tones?) for more mass to the sound. Pan left and right for stereo, or use different amps on a splitter and double those, panning left and right a bit?
Thank you John!! Another great video! The way you approached all the options was very systematic and I am sure this video will serve as a reference for many home studio owners. Keep it up !! cheers
The auto-align plugin from radix, phenomenal plugin. That’ll do what you want.
Great vid, another way is to keep the same amps panned left and right with a contrasting amp in the center. :)
My main method for amp sims is a single-tracked bright amp (think orange rockerverb) and then a doubletracked amp with very punchy bass and mids (think 5150) and it's not bad at all.
Both sound MASSIVE! I like the Mesa better :) Great video Jon!
This was a real eye opener! Can you achieve similar levels of tonal variety by blending different mics instead of different amps? What about just using one amp, and quadtracking with each track having different EQ/compression settings.
Love both amps, they sound great together. Excellent job man, as always.
Double tracking with different amps on left vs. right sounded best. Would love to see double tracking using the same amp but with different cab/impluse responses on left vs. right to see what combinations works best for rhythm vs. clean vs. high-gain lead tones 👍
Best metal sound I've heard in a production: a dual rectifier and a Marshall valvestate. Weird mix but it was godly.
mixing the quad tracks volumes to taste like in your last example sounds like the way to go....and even spreading them out just a bit in the stereo field gives a more full sound...as far as the phased sound from the same di tracks on each side....i've tried and tried many times to adjust the timing alignment all without success.
This is an amazing channel and you deserve way more subscriptions! Thanks for your consistently great content!
I just love this channel.
I think that double tracking is better for very tight and fast riffing, though not always. Quad tracking just sounds so much bigger though. Notes have a kind of chorus effect, it kind of warms up and softens everything in a good way. The chords and open notes swell and the chugs are massive.
I like the Both amps on both sides, volume lowered on one of the amps to taste.
I gotta say though, the clip with one DI going through both amps sounded kinda nasty and gritty. Really adds a nice grunge feel to the guitars.
IMO all of this sounded great.
I'd quad track more but I'm honestly too lazy sometimes. Hahaha!
Cheers Jon
I AM BLOWN AWAY BY THE HUGE SOUND, ARE THE YORK IR RES. THAT MUCH BETTER THAN THE IR CAB'S IN FRACTAL, IN OTHER WORDS SHOULD I SPEND THE MONEY. IT SURE DID SOUND SO MUCH DIFFERENT THAN WOULD I HEAR FROM MY AXE 111. THANKS FOR THE SHARE!
Quad-tracked amp blend all the way. Sounds perfectly mix-ready.
so, i prefer the sound of double track of one amp due to clarity and cut in a mix. the guitars would usually be a little lower in final mix with vocals, drums/bass etc and i feel double track is more than enough. for two amps, i prefer one amp on one side and the other on the other side, like you'd experience if it were a live performance. if i mix a live band with two guitarist's some times i pan each guitar a touch to either side. sounds and riff recorded in video sounded massive. great video. ever heard of an Australian band called Grinspoon, check out lost control, dead cat 3 times, champion
For me, dual track with one amp for each side, easy and sound really well
Very cool man!! Lots of good info in this video.
Thanks bro!
6dB is where you eliminate phase issues. the -5dB section had the least amount of weird aliasing and fuzzy overtones. next time see if 1 more dB helps. i know it sounds silly, but it's science
i'd also find an amp that sounds good boosted and pair it with one that sounds good without being boosted. get them in more different frequency ranges.
What about regular double tracking and then a different third chain completely mono in the center? Has anyone tried something similar? Triple Tracking? Awesome work as always!
Great video. I honestly prefer the double tracking though!
Hello, could you please indicate for this video and for the future the following data that I think is crucial to know for this test and for all those relating to the opening and the stereo balancing of 2 or more guitar signals? I mean to indicate the exact value of the balance of each of the tracks (indicated in percentage from 0 to 100 for both the L and R channels), since the volume of each signal in each channel (determined by the balance), affects the Dramatically how we perceive the rest of the instruments, the mix in general and the sensation of widening and differentiation between different amplifiers. Please tell me what panning percentages you used in this very interesting video, to be able to draw conclusions and decisions regarding how to apply it. The information about panning is vital to me. Thank you
I really like the sound of quad tracking 2 of the Same amps on each side.
Tone I think was the best out my TV and phone speakers..
That being said, I do agree about the double tracking it does sound more defined.. I'd prefer using that in a mix typically.
The phasing you are going over later on I can kinda tell when you mix two amps together on the same pan it sounds?
Muddy? Depending on the metal you are making that might be a good thing.
Great video, love stuff like this!
I think with quad tracking, I prefer blending the amps on each side. Its subtle but if you quad track with only one amp on each side then you can just pick up some uneven characteristics. I can't remember which amp it was, but I could just feel the bite of the palm mutes more on the left over the right, like they needed compressing slightly to stop the boom compared with the other side - but honestly who can be bothered to try and level that out in the fine detail!
Nicely done sir.. definitely 2 great amps to mix together as their toners compliment each other very well.
Any thoughts on bringing in a Splawn Nitro on the show?
Awesome, i liked all the quad tracked options the most with these two amps, there was more bite present with the quad tracking method, although i didn’t hear it smear the definition noticeably. Great tutorial and song/riff👍🤘🏼🎸
are you using de same cabinet??? the sound is brutal!!! tnks!!!
the riff at 2:53 is beautiful
Thank you - great and instructive video.
With all these Amps, you're in blending heaven. Might wonder what an orange sounds like paired with engl or h&k?!
Absolutely killer!
What are your thoughts regarding using this technique paired with the Fredman mic technique? Would the quad track essentially be 8 tracks due to the double mic or would you consider quad tracked using 2 takes of the Fredman Technique?
Such nice riffs, you are really talented man!
Man, the quad tracked Version with one amp loeder on each side really sounded killer. I would love to hear a blend of the Laney Ironheart and the Orange dark Terror like that, I think they could fit very very good together
To my taste, quad tracks have a little muffled quality in transients, while not adding much power to it; doubles sound cleaner, punchier, more aggressive. Maybe there is some use for quads for large open chords sorts of, but not for the busy parts for sure.
Blended amps, when one is over another, have some weird phasing issues. One amp in L and the second in R has a little more potential though, can sound nice. I believe Slikpknot has always recorded like that.
Cool! I would prefer your suggestion for future vids too 🔥
VERY GOOD VIDEO, INTERESTING COMBINATION OF SOUNDS. COULD YOU MAKE A QUAD TRACK VIDEO WITH MESA BOOGIE RECTIFIER AND ENGL FIREBALL 100. THESE TWO AMPS COULD PASTE VERY WELL!!!
My favorite quad set up is with a Wizard MTL2 and a Diezel Herbert. Thick tight but super rich
Cool video! I think double tracked sounded the best and that is my observation also in own recordings. Quad tracking gets messy and also takes more time. The benefit of larger sound can be somewhat achieved with mixing. It would be nice to hear a blend with a Marshall as one of the amps.
i think this amp combo is exactly what gojira did on the from mars to sirius album. i like the left/right split per amp with 1DI on each side the best, it sounds the most alive imo. your blend method is a nice in between thing though.
little tip to anyone who now wants to try quad tracking: you better practice the shit out of your parts, if your playing isn't spot on it devolves into mush very quickly. and the more intricate the guitar parts are the less sense quad tracking makes imo. it sounds bigger and fuller, but you lose some detail.
Great album!
This was banging thru my monitors🤤