You Should Buy a Modeling Amp INSTEAD of a Tube Amp...Apparently?
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
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00:00 Playing intro Line 6 Catalyst Direct tones
4:43 Found this Article from Guitar World
5:30 Modeling Amps are Lighter
7:29 Modeling Amps are Cheaper
8:40 This one is...contentious...Modeling Amps are more Reliable?
10:40 Modeling Amps don't sound that different to Tube Amps?
12:00 Modeling Amps used to be the Flagship - now they're often Budget options?
/ johnnathancordy you can get my backing tracks and lesson tabs here.
www.buymeacoffee.com/johnnath... - if you like what I do and
only if you wanted, you could buy me a coffee!
Get my PADs bundle here: www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr... (this folder will grow, and I'd encourage you to ask for different keys/songs and stuff that might suit this type of preset?)
I've decided to make it possible to grab both my Helix/HX Stomp bundles (the expression bundle with freeze presets has always been separate) together - www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr... - I will then email you a link to both bundles!
Try my general patches for Helix or HX Stomp in this bundle using this link - I will then send out the patches! www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...
You can get my EXPRESSION patches in this bundle using this link - I will then send out the patches! www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...
Try my patches for Pod GO using this link - I will then send out the patches! www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...
/ johnnathancordy get my backing tracks here
www.buymeacoffee.com/johnnath... - if you like what I do and
only if you wanted, you could buy me a coffee!
![The WORST thing about using HX Stomp Live [and MOST Digital Modelers]](/img/n.gif)
Have you been happy with a Modeling amp? Or do you think this article was a bit....Optimistic?
Optics. Because all you are hearing is the tone cutting through in the mix. Use a Tone Master and they think it's a Fender tube amp. Update the software and put in the Celestion speaker. Take off the tag and presto! Now 100% of the audience doesn't know the difference. Ask Pearl Jam. The only reason a hand full of nutt jobs were talking crap was because they found out what they were using. If not for that, crickets!
I just traded a vox ac30 for a catalyst 200 to use with my helix. The vox sounded better but the catalyst is a better gigging tool. Lighter, smaller, more functionalities and better I/O
I have a catalyst and wow mine doesn't look as bad as yours. I use the cover and I guess its probably because I load it in and out. I haven't had it too long so I guess I will see. As far as the sound love it. I use it straight in when practicing. But at gigs I use it as a powered cab for my PodGo or Helix Lt.
I really like my Fender Tonemaster. I really don't even think about it being a modeling amp any more. You should try one for the channel some time. Just make sure you do the firmware update to get rid of the "bright cap" because it makes overdrives super fizzy.
I like my Helix, but even if the tonal differences are lost on some listeners there is a very definite difference in feel and response that still has me favoring tube amps. I have to drive the thing so I’m going with what’s going to get the best results in the situation. Live or loud, it’s still tubes, however, I have largely converted to digital for general practice and recording. I don’t worry about what other people are using as long as they sound good.
The argument “I’ve already got ______.” Is a good one. Remember media, print, online and all others, is often design to advertise and to create demand. For guitarists this is done by talking up the new guitar, amp, pedal. While many products are great, you may not need to replace what you have at all. The article, or video was designed to make someone think, “I need to by a modeling amp.” Yet, in reality, you probably already have what yo need to continue playing in whatever situation you are already in.
I think the lesson here is; there's too much gear and too much choice. I'm in my 50's and have owned modern gear and old gear.
People I have played with for years have seen my gear change regularly but say I still sound like me!
If you can get light gear that sounds good use that, there's no point putting your back out.
Lol. I'm in my early 50s as well. Well said.
For live - 98% of your audience won't hear the difference. There will always be a smattering of judgemental guitar players sitting at the back of the room with their arms folded - but to the drunk chicks stumbling on the dance floor with their friends, it sounds great as long as you play 'Brown Eyed Girl' - and that's what we're all in it for - right? I love drunk chicks dancing almost as much as i hate 'Brown Eyed Girl'. God bless em.
Amen to all of that lol. Spot on
For the "smattering" peoplewith their arms folded, you wouldn't know the difference if you thought it was a tube amp. The complete end! But thanks for playing
Don’t think them ‘drunk’ girls would know you were not playing a bagpipe... until they saw your kilt and fishnets.
The thing is the judgmental guitar players won’t know unless they see the amp, or modeler. The guitar community just sucks tbh lol. And it be guys that don’t have 1 song out or any type of credibility that are the loudest. I’m not that great of a guitar player, but I don’t make music to impress musicians lol
@@joshtorresfdu6621 I don't buy the "what song have YOU written?" argument that means you somehow aren't qualified to critique a song, or the "how many amps have YOU built?" argument meaning you're not qualified to critique a piece of gear. That's crap. Whether or not you like something is purely subjective. Whether or not it's crap on a technical level isn't. Mesa amps are a good example. Someone may like the way they sound and draw inspiration from them, but you don't have to be Jim Marshall or Dave Friedman to know that replacing a simple component can mean disassembling the damned thing. There are techs that flat out refuse to work on them. People like them, but if I snap off a pot knob and I have to pay someone a couple hundred bucks to replace it because the design doesn't make sense, on a technical level it's crap.
I play guitar and make music because I love it, and don’t necessarily care what the audience thinks. Tube amps are just more enjoyable for me to play, and it makes me feel good, so that’s the main reason I still use them. I do use my quad cortex when needed for convenience, but I never feel as good playing it as when I’m playing my tube amp.
I've switched to using a Katana full time here are my thoughts on the points.
Point 1 "Tube amps are heavier than a modeling amp and tube amps are too loud anyway." For me I was using a Vox AC30ch Head that weights 55 pounds and a Marshall origin 2x12 cab that weighted the same roughly. My Katana 100 weights 28 pounds and is louder than the Vox AC30CH. Additionally the Katana foot print vs the Vox head and the marshall cab is roughly half the size so I now fit into smaller stages quite easily. Also I could not push the power amp section of that vox amp anywhere we went. The sweet spot for the amp was master volume at 10 o'clock or higher. I couldn't get it past 9 o'clock on the master, and doing so resulted in an anemic guitar tone that was shrill and sucked. The Katana 100 although it might not have that AC30 tone when its in the sweet spot, doesn't have to be cranked to sound good. In fact the Katana 100 sounds good cranked or silent and running direct. Its also benefiting from having 8 presets with various amps to choose from. To me that's a win for the Katana or modeling amps in general. Also I don't have to mic an amp anymore since I can just run a cable and go direct. so that's an amp mic stand and SM57 I can leave at home. If you are taking note that's 70 pounds of gear I don't have to haul around anymore.
Point 2 "Price point" My Vox head cost me in July of 2021 scratch and dent from Sweetwater $930, and the cab was $305 also scratch and dent. I traded in the AC30 Head at a local guitar center and they gave me $530. I tried to sell the amp on Reverb and locally. But I was only getting offers locally for $400, and low ball offers from reverb. I knew I was done with the Vox and to me I knew guitar center would give me 60% of what they could sell it for. Used Vox AC30 Heads were going for $800. So I knew what I would get going into it. Additionally Guitar Center offered me 10% discount on any new inventory that wasn't on sale. So with tax I got the Katana 100 for $360. I later went back and got the foot switch for it which cost me $120. So I'm into a Boss Katana for $500 roughly with $30 to spare from the vox. I know a lot of you don't think it was a smart deal but practicality it makes the most sense to me. I bought a dream amp that was more amp than I needed and I wasn't happy, so I got something that was simple to use that works everywhere. I'd say that's another win for the Boss Katana or Modeling amps in general.
Point 3 Build quality or reliability. My Vox had a broken spring transducer in the spring tank. I fixed it by getting a new spring tank. I haven't had any issue with the Katana yet so I can't tell you if it gonna hold up... but I can tell you its not serviceable. Tube amps for the win.
Point 4 "Modeling amps don't sound that different from tube amps" My Vox AC30 head and 2x12 cab sounded glorious with no pedals required and the preamps dimed (or not) and the master turned past 10 o'clock. Noon on the master was my preferred sound. There is no contest for that one sound it was untouchable except for other tube amps run in the same fashion, its really more about what do you like at that point Fender, Marshall, or Vox style amps. What never works for me is having a tube amp that isn't pushed some how or another. I've been playing for 25 years and had tons of great tube amps (Fender Custom Vibrolux Reverb, Bassbreaker 45, Hotrod Deluxe, Blues Jr, Marshall JCM800 50 watt head, Vox AC15, AC30, Laney VC-30, Peavey Windsor and that's the ones I remember!) but they all have one thing in common they got to be pushed to sound good. Even the clean tones that sparkle need a little bit of push to get to that sweet spot. You can attenuate the amps but then you're not getting the same tones and you spent money on a box to achieve this. More crap to setup! Now my Boss Katana 100 is just a solid state amp, but it has 6 amp styles and an alternate sound for each in it. Do they sound as good as the tube amps? Not when the tubes are cooking. But its not like the good old days when we could crank up a little. NOBODY lets you crank anymore to a loud sound in the clubs and low level of armature status that I'm playing in. Outdoors is really your only shot with a good tube amp. With the Katana 100 I'm not trying to emulate a sound like a specific amp in mind. I go for a clean sound, a crunchy sound, and a high gain sound, and then I want a solo boost for all of them. Its the same anywhere I take it. I can adjust the attenuator built in to the amp for 100 watts or 50 watts (btw 50 watts is all I ever get to run the Katana 100 at and the master is set to 10 o'clock with plenty of head room to spare.)
Point 5 "Modeling amps are available in pedal format" I've had a Line6 PodGo that I used at church for silent stage use, and you could argue I could have used it in a tube amp and been happy but if I'm using a tube amp I don't want a modeler doing the work. That's too much work to setup. Also if I can have an amp onstage vs going direct and silent (in ears suck!) I take the amp (tube or solid state modeler) any day of the week! the beauty of having a Modeler amp is you can take it anywhere, turn and burn. Its simple, with the flexibility to a lot of things. I don't even have a pedal board anymore because the Katana 100 has everything I would use built into it. I'm a simple guy and I don't get into ambient tones. Country, Rock, Blues, and Hard Rock is all I need and the Katana does that in spades without the deep presets, or if I want to with deep presets on the software side of it.
My final point? Dial in a good sound and enjoy yourself. I'm doing it with a Boss Katana 100 and I wish I had jumped on the band wagon 6 years ago when they first came out. I was a tone snob and felt like tubes where the only way to go. But you live and learn. I was tired of dragging tons of gear around, and I wasn't happy with my sound due to the volume restrictions I was running into more and more. My back is happy, my wallet is happy because now I'm not buying anymore overdrive pedals and I've gotten more complements on my tones from other guitarist at gigs than I have ever had. Also I'm more versatile. I don't have to run the same sound all night. I can run clean, crunchy, distorted, or whip out an acoustic all with the same amp.
Well reasoned. I have never had a tube amp, but love my Katana Artist and GX-100 and do not think I will run out of things to experiment with in my lifetime. I am not a performer though. The guitar is my therapist.
I’m a Katana guy and I adore it. I truly believe almost any sound I want is in it. I’ve started experimenting with GA-FC EX foot switch to branch out more. The speakers on the 100w katana are incredible. I’d argue it has a valve ‘feel’ but I can’t profess to being a valve connoisseur. Either way, I love it and helps me enjoy my practice time as much as band practice.
Do you have the Artist with the WAZA greenbacks? Man they sound so good. So do the Nextone with the blue bells.
The Katana Artist is awesome!
Ditto. And the amp has MIDI.
I like the amps I got because I like them. I like the connection to the history of Rock n Roll, and Jazz, and etc. I have microphones, too, much for the same reason, a connection to the past.
Solved! Hey everybody, catch up.
Re-amp a 1/2 rack, 1W output tube with 3 pre-amp tubes. Has internal reactive-load and tweak-able cab/mic sim section. Toggle 3 Fryette voicings and a gaggle of output options. Winning with dial-able headroom and 'sag'.
My GP/DI Valvulator by Fryette is going on 8 trouble free yrs now. The head ph amp has an fx loop, btw. It also has speaker-out, so it's apartment/family friendly. Cool with Stomp 4C method.
Via an old Fender Acoustasonic SFX2, it A/B'd strong vs my booteek BandMaster/mod'd clone with Webber Alnico 3x10 combo.
Very much ahead of its time and will always remain under the radar. But meanwhile I'll keep getting the purity of touch sensitive tube/analog goodness with cranked pwr tube harmonics. Bonus is I don't heat the room with glass and the tubes are todays std issue.
I bought a Katana after my tube amp needed repair and lo and behold the tube shortage apocalypse was upon us. I also was curious about FX boards and thought 2 birds with 1 stone was a good enough reason to delay amp repairs and buy the Katana.
After adding the foot switch and some expression pedals, the Katana is IMO completely viable for both gigging and studio work. You can't necessarily set identical parameters on a Katana effect and the real thing and get identical tone, but you can get comparable tone that fools an A/B test especially in a mix.
So for the purpose of making good music, I endorse economical modeling amps for all purposes besides purists.
Nathan, you are the reason I purchased a Boss Katana 100W head. I run it thru a 12 inch Celestion Vintage 30 and it KICKS ASS. When ever I play a jam session with it, other guitarists ask about it and remark how good it sounds. Incredibly versatile and only cost me $300. Thank you mucho.
I've been happy with exactly one modeling amp and even then it was a hybrid. The Peavey Vypyr 60. I sold my original one years ago because I really wanted an fx loop on it (even though onboard effects are great). A couple years ago I learned you could mod them to have a loop so I bought another one and did that and still have it and it's not going anywhere until it dies. And then I'll get another one and mod that too.
I had a Quilter which was very loud but a bit too hi fi. I now use an Award Session Blues Baby 45. About 10kg and a great, warm sounding clean channel with nice reverb. A great ledal platform.
I used all-tube amps for 40 years. Bought a Helix LT (direct into PA) in 2018 and never looked back. FWIW, I also have a Vox AD60VT (Valvetronix) from 2007 which was (and still is) a nice modeling amp. But it, like my tube combo amp, sits in the garage collecting dust. I do own a Headrush FRFR cabinet for use with the Helix but it's only used at band practice.
Love your point about the serviceability! That is bang on, the old stuff was built to last and be fixable for a reasonable price. New things are usually made to be disposable when they go wrong.
I think people should just play whatever makes them happy. For me personally, I've never played any modeling amp that was as much fun to play as a simple tube amp. My personal favorites are single channel amps.
Bang on truth.
Old hand wired amps? Yeah, pretty easy to repair. Mesa Mark V or Road King? Good luck!
I have several solid state amps but increasingly less reason to buy anything new. I've never owned a tube amp, but I was super impressed with the one I played at the store. However now I don't really have a use for one because I plug my pedalboard straight into the mixer at church.
Almost all PCB tube amps are designed to fail in 5 years or so: Fenders, Marshalls, Mesas etc.
I think my Quilter Cub sounds really good, is light and cheaper than a tube amp. - but doesn't replace the Princeton 65's beautiful, organic tones that I once had.
We're all going to jump from digital to analog and analog to digital.. So all this discussion doesn't matter.. We adore each more than the other at different points of time.. So just enjoy both..
I have personally switched from my mesa dual rectifier with 2x12 cab, to a line 6 helix LT primarily due to the weight. I’m in my 40s now and I am trying to look after my spine a bit better.
It sounds great so I don’t have a problem with going digital. I have been considering selling my amp but I can’t seem to part with it (because it’s awesome and I’d miss it, even though I haven’t used it for more than a year)
Great video. Thank you for your insights. Btw, I would love to see your video production process. How do you put all the pieces together? How do you add such great drums? Thanks again.
I've used both through the years. My first modeling amp was a Flextone1 in about 1998. I recorded and gigged it extensively back then, even recorded an album (mic'd). I grew to know it like the back of my hand. It did tend to go wacky with its programming sometimes but because I knew it so well and it was simple I could reprogram it quickly. I have also used tube amps since the 70s and still do to this day. I have had a Helix since they were released. Amps are easier to get great sounds out of most times in a live venue setting. If you have a good ear and know how to dial in a modeling amp it can sound wonderful too however, you have to almost be a sound engineer to dial one in. I think of it as a similar process to doing a recording studio mix. The driver wins the race more often that the car :)
I get what you're saying about the floor unit into a power amp, but the Katana is pretty much "that". Then if you play through the Ka tana speakers you get the immediate feel of an amp! Floor unit through the power amp seems to make more latency IMO.. The built in effects are fantastic. The built in EQ is amazing! My tone is exactly the type of tone and feel that I like and it was $600 for the amp and all the pedals I like to use with it. I couldn't care less about resale value.. I plan to keep it..
I do think that in live performances an important aspect is the speaker spread. And here's the modeling amps far ahead, not because of the modeling, but because of modern speaker design.
when i play on my old 50w marshall it sounds fantastic where i'm positioned, but 20 meter from of the scene just in from of the amp there's a spot where it's so sharp that it can cut the ear of a deaf, whereas a modelling amp, might not sound as perfect in the perfect spot, it's way more consistent it it's sounds.
And THANK!!!! for all your great videos, it's SO inspiring :)
I had the 1st iteration of the Boss Katana. Kept it for a year or so. It was really nice for what it was. Better than the Fender Blues Jr. that I had, but not better in playing feel than a fewer higher end valve amps in my arsenal. Fast forward to now, technology has come a long way. I would consider trying it again, but now that there are so many options, I would have no idea what modeler amp to use for gigging.
Absolutely epic intro piece!! I've never used a modeling amp like a Katana or Catalyst other than in a music store, so I don't know what they'd sound and feel like in a band mix context. But I have played through both a Fender Twin Tonemaster and a "real" Twin with a band, and I do think I can tell the difference between them, even if someone were to take the "Tonemaster" tag off the amp!
76 yrs old, started out with Gibson amp heavy as hell, went to a fender, not much better but loved the clean sound, go into rock and bought a custom amp, sold it and got a used amp from a friend and had that amp for well over a decqde...( should have never sold it...(JC 120) ROLAND...... Started doing local one man gigs, with 2 attended 25 w amps and a boss 400 board, and used house cabinets for vocals, etc.
Stopped giving till about 3 years ago, purchased a Line 6 MK 5 250 at top of the line amp, and foot pedal controller, and a few specialty pedals to give me certain affects that the MK 5 didn't have...
My preference was really never any tube amp, but the JC 120 AND THE LINE 6 240, WERE WHAT I ENJOYED USING AND PLAYING HANDS DOWN....
I'm finding some therapy and deeper understanding recognising guitarists option anxiety through this thread!
There's so much gear on the market, and we're inquisitive about improving our playing skills and techniques and seeing if we can find the 'perfect' sound. Will the next product release satisfy our needs? Or will we get bored of it and PX it?
How many of us have had great gear, used it for a few years, sold it, bought something else then regretted it (Rivera R55 combo).
Being a lifelong musician is an interesting journey and I think a lot of us will end up having a few different options to call on.
Currently I have a Mesa Boogie Rectoverb 25 combo which I adore for small/ medium gigs, the touch sensitivity and tone are really satisfying and the reverb luscious. I will use it without any pedals, just a channel change foot switch.
Award Session Blues Baby 45. I use this in Manchester City Centre because parking is a nightmare and it's very light 9.5 kg with neo speaker. A couple of pedals and mic it through PA, sounds great.
Here is my latest dilemma. I did a gig at a large golf club and the singers PA didn't have enough inputs for my microphone, He thought my Boogie would be loud enough even though he'd DI'd a 500 watt bass head! The Boogie wasn't loud enough and the band were asking me to turn up!😢
This gave me perfornane anxiety (not that type) because I thought this could happen again - money being a bit tight for many - I bought a 2nd hand Fender Champion 100 2x12 just in case. It's an ordinary amp which sounds okay but it's not as good as my other stuff.
Summary, I don't want to lug heavy valve gear so - funds allowing - I might upgrade the Champion to a Katana Artist (owned one before, nice and loud ) or maybe a Blacktstar Silverline 100 ( anyone got one?)
Good luck to all guitarists on their quests.
Most informative, thanks John. It's all about the margins...less expense, more profit.
Since getting back to playing guitar after many decades off, the first amp I bought was the Katana MkII. It was an inexpensive way to see if this was more than just a flash in the pan. I've stuck with it and bought three more amps (Spark 40 and a couple tube amps). I got the Katana out the other day to update to the latest version and I was struck, yet again, by how amazing it is. I've got a 5150 patch that just rips. I've got a Robin Trower uni-vibe patch that is just filthy. I think for the money, it (and likely the many other options like the Catalyst) just can't be beat. It covers so much sonic ground for an amateur like me, it's probably wasteful to get honest to god tube amps. However, if I found a sweet deal on an Engl Fireball 25...
I've used the Catalyst 100 on gigs as both a clean amp / pedal platform and as a powered speaker for the Helix and enjoyed both experiences. I may have gone in with low expectations but I was actually shocked at how good it sounded in the room. Not quite the same experience as my tube amps but fewer sound people giving me a lecture about stage volume.
Great video and I think everybody will defend their choice, I am still using tube heads, one small (22W boutique amp) and a a big one (Marshall Origin50), with a 1X12 box, but I am working on a solo project where I will play my songs (guitar and vocal) over a backing track, with only bass and drum, and for that I am thinking more and more about getting an HX Stomp or an Ampero II, because even if I have a CaptorX and so no need for a cab, I think it will be easiest to run the HX or Ampero directly in my PA. But to me nothing comparable to the feel of your jeans moving by the air of a loud guitar speaker :)
Big fan of modelling but haven't really ever considered getting a modelling amp.
As you said at the end, from a Helix LT or (more often) Stomp into the power amp stage of my Roland Jazz Chorus is the way I go. And I use that amp because it's pretty transparent and I already have it....not totally sure what I'd do if it died but probably wouldn't get a modelling amp. Interesting.
I actually went to a local store a few days ago looking for a nice tube amp to complement my digital rig. I checked out some Fenders, Marshalls, Vox and Blackstars but I was shocked to discover that (to me at least) they all sounded either too pokey or unpleasantly harsh without the ability to really customise the sound. The best sounding amp I tried (again, to me at least) was a Boss Katana! The volume taper was very useable and there was much more flexibility for tweaking the sound. I initially thought the acoustics might be just bad but I did like the Katana. When I came back home and played my GT-1000 through my stereo studio monitors it sounded absolutely lush and glorious. I was born in the digital age so maybe I’m just not used to the sound of raw tube amps, but to be honest it was not all it’s hyped up to be. (although I did once fall in love with a Laney Lionheart since it had a more round and modern sound but that was unfortunately too heavy and loud for my needs)
Pearl Jam's Mike McCready is using Fender Tonemasters live. I use a Helix LT (direct and folded back or through a powered cab.) I sold my Vox and Fender amps as I'm happy with my sound from the Helix and it's FAR more convenient and versatile. I can go to a gig on my motorcycle with my entire rig. I honestly think 95% of guitarists couldn't tell the difference between, for instance, a tube amp and a tonemaster, but that's not the whole equation. If the tubes create a placebo effect for you, that's a genuine thing. If it really makes you feel better, lug a tube amp around. For me, it doesn't make any significant difference, so I might as well go with the more convenient solution.
For me personally it's the versatility of more sounds, not necessarily spot on models but good tones and a lot of them. I really get bored with the same sound all the way through the night. The other thing is size and weight. I carry and run sound and lights. There's only enough room in my car for me and air when I'm done packing. I have 2 tube amps and they are either too heavy or too large to bring so my power cab does the work. I'm leaning towards a Catalyst for the extra power. I'm in 2 duos...one with a keyboard player who does left hand bass with drum patterns and fills. The other duo is with a bass player and we work to tracks with guitar and bass pulled from the mix. In both instances everything goes through the mains but there's a huge gap in the middle of the stage and that's where the power cab or hopefully the Catalyst fills up. There's nothing wrong with a good tube amp or a good modelling amp. I'm just trying to save my back and please my ears.
Saw a band at a brewery and the guitarist was using a Roland cube, sounded great!!
Never thought I would say it but Solid State might be the future 🤷
A great speaker and cab with a transparent high headroom SS amp could be the best thing to throw a modeler in front of.
Grew up with tube amps from the 60s on. The only amp service man around charges 150.00 to accept an amp for repair before ever opening it up. Ive had a Katana 2 x 12 for years and if ut ever fails ill have another, i don't care what anyone else uses. I made a living with amps from mid 70s to 2008, and i would have been happy to have had this amp the whole time. I love amps,, though,wish i could afford to collect them
I know my neighbors damn sure prefer me going the modeler route with headphones. We're all getting along much better now.
The only amp I own is a Blues Cube Stage, which sort of splits the difference I guess. With my Mr. Moto Reverb/Tremolo, it's really all that I need to have fun at home. But I will say, plugging into a tube amp with tube driven verb and tremolo is still a superior experience as far as feel in the room, but the problem of good sound at low volume, or maybe not having a headphone out, is an issue for my situation and makes switching the Cube out for a Little King or whatever kind of impractical.
I love these discussions! Both are great IMO and have their places. There’s no way I will ever part with my 5150 that I’ve had for 30 years. Do I expect to build the same relationship with my modeler, certainly not. But at the same time it’s a fraction of the cost and like a tv these days, I’d just throw it away if something happens to it or get something else when something better comes out next year! 😊
I love my Deluxe Reverb Tone Master more each day! For me (bedroom player - love lush clean Fendery Tones with the occasional touch of a wee bit of grit) it's just perfect.
My Catalyst 100 works great for me though I prefer my Marshall Origin 50C. Catalyst is a good sounding/feeling, solid, versatile amp.
I use my Catalyst with my HX-Effects, in 4CM with MIDI to control the Catalyst channel and turn boost on/off.
I ended up using the clean, crunch and high gain models and HXE.
I have a clean channel for clean and rhythm; another clean channel with higher level for leads; and a crunch channel I use for rhythm; and a high gain channel for leads. Then I use these with different patches in the HXE. Covers nearly everything I want.
Made the switch to the dark side 6 years ago, and I don't miss tubes at all. I have multiple ways to monitor (FRFR, and SS amp with guitar cab). Love it.
I thought tubes were the dark side. But maybe I am confusing that with the Metal years.
I have a boss katana mk2 100 1x12 and LOVE IT. I’ve been playing katanas since 2017 and they are easily the most best amp that works for my play style. They take pedals EXCEPTIONALLY WELL, you can run modelers through them, they sound GREAT out the box, and most importantly, they’re built like TANKS just like the original Roland cubes. Boss really hit it out of the park when they made the Katana. I miss my katana mk1 2x12 but man, I’m glad that they still make great stuff!!!
Hey John have you tried the twin reverb tone master? Heard great things about it. I guess the speakers are different between the black version and the white colored ones. The black one has Jensens and the white or blonde ones have the neo cream backs. I guess the selling point is light weight, high headroom or attenuated to play cranked at lower volumes. Edit: Just watched to the end and you mentioned not trying them. Would be cool to check them out and maybe see the difference between speakers
When my tube amp died (again) I finally decided to take the plunge into modeling. I had already purchased a couple of plug-in's, but just took delivery if a Helix HX Stomp XL. Still trying to learn all that this thing can do. Downloading pre-sets is helpful. Any other advice is welcome. Thanks for the great videos! 😃
@@jnixo9900 That's pretty much what I am doing. Working with one amp until I get it dialed in and then try others. The learning curve hasn't been too bad, so far, but I sure there is SO much this thing can do and I've barely scratched the surface. Thanks!
I've gone from cheap modeling (Vox) to moderate tube (Vox & Fender) to moderate modeling (Boss) to amp pedal (WalrusACS1). The only reason I'd go back to tube at this point is if I needed to have a certain "look" onstage for the snobs and I had a roadie to lug it around.
I’ve been running tube amps for guitar my whole life. Marshall Major back in the day, Fender Princeton Reverb II, Marshall DSL40c. Great amps all, and of course I have a slew of pedals to go with them. But I just got a Katana 50 MkII a few weeks ago. Just over 20 pounds, and it has nearly all the effects built in. I’m using the AirStep KAT with it… it’s wonderful. The Clean amp type is the baseline for both my jazz and rock sounds.
The dynamics with a tube amp and reactive load I haven't been able to recreate with a modeler
Specially edge of break up/fuzz sounds. Hitting in soft and digging in doesn't react the same. It's more a feel thing
For live stuff I think hx stomp is awesome. For recording amp feels more fun to play
I’m happy running my pedalboard ampless using my Atomic Firebox as the amp for live playing or using it’s Friedman lead with my board running through my Mesa TA30 combo. Both sound great. Megadeth also use the Neural QC’s for their live shows. As for longevity, I owned a Johnson Marquis 60 combo which died and couldn’t get parts or it serviced so went straight in the bin.
A good conversation with pros and cons. I'm indifferent to what someone prefers, so I'm not trying to sell a modeling amp. I'll just say that while you can get an even weight, whatever modeling amp you carry should be able to give you a reasonably wide variety of sounds and effects, whereas the amp will be only 1 sound and few effects (unless you carry pedals as well). Depreciation is a real thing though. Modelers are a lot like computers, they get out of date and newer stuff comes out. The tube amps do what they do and you either want the sound from that model of amp or you don't. :)
I’ve had the most success with the Yamaha THR 100 D both in terms of recording and playing live. The core tones are excellent and you just use it exactly like a normal tube amp and so don’t end up wasting hours and hours tweaking tweaking. Just plug in and play with your usual effects board.
Nice song at the beginning. Do you have an album I can look for online?
Zero issues with my Yamaha DG 80-210 Combo, and it is like 25 year old, motorised pots works flawlessly etc etc.
Thanks JC and a bit of news for your audience; Line 6 are as of yesterday surveying registered Helix owners--including me since 2018. Let's hope Yamaha funds the product development and Ben's team again outdoes themselves. We Helix folks all have our wish lists; fingers crossed. Thanks John, carry on Sir!
I got that survey too. Looked like the first steps into product scoping, which would mean we are far far far away from even working prototypes.
I was on a helix wish list. I sold it and bought a Boss unit.
I have an H&K Grandmeister 40 tube amp and 2 Boss Katana MK2 Artist models for solid state. I also use a Boss GT1000 in either combo for some other sounds. I love my tube amp but to be honest, the Boss Katana's are so good with the GT1000 you really cant tell the difference. I have been playing since 1987 and own 10 guitars for a resume. It breaks down for most people like this. They want those tones and be able to switch to them easily without tweaking knobs. We buy modelers because we cant afford 10+ valve amps or really want too. We do want the tones. For about $1000 you can get that in most modelers. If you want to just play for hours into 1 amp channel, play a tube amp.
@6:00 From a weight perspective - I wonder if they might be referring to the likes of Fender Tonemaster, where the Deluxe Reverb model is about 10kg vs 20kg+ on tube amp!
Build quality & long term repairablity are big deals to me for any amp. Tonemasters sound and feel really good quality - tried one, and wasn't for me as it just didn't sound quite as good on fuzz pedals (but if you were a fairly clean player, or after more natural drive sounds then I would strongly consider it). Not so sure on repairablity long term - but the build quality seemed pretty decent and would still be a nice speaker and combo cab to build an amp project in if repairs weren't feasible.
I have used em all by now.
There is something for everyone today.
And there is different gear fore different needs.
All that being said, if I had to choose, it would be tube amps and pedals anyday.
The only closest that I have heard and tried is the Katana series, but you need to have a good cab.
I have a couple of gigs this weekend. I'll be using Line 6 Catalyst. Will let you know how it goes. I have my'68 Princeton RI with a Rajin' Cajun spkr. for backup, JIC :)
Please do! I've only used the Catalyst return input so far, need to try gigging it at some point!
@@johnnathancordy John, the Catalyst worked very well for the 2 gigs I played. Both were in relatively small clubs, 100 or so seating. Fri. night used the Catalyst only Sat. night used the Catalyst and Princeton. Much improved overall sound Sat. so going forward will use both. Our band plays a mixture of blues, old school R&B/ Soul music so not very loud.
Used a Fulltone Fulldrive, very old Tubescreamer and Strymon Flint. Simple setup but perfect for this band. I used the Crunch setting for a while on the Catalyst and then switched the Clean and found that a much improved "cut through the mix" sound. Thanks for your insight and wonderful channel. Be well
Jesus christ that intro. Stellar.
I am running Helix through 2 x 100 watt Katana heads (Power Amp In - 50 watt mode). The heads are going into two 12" cabs loaded with Waza 12" Greenback speakers. I've spent a lot of time dialing in the Helix, but it sounds great and I am satisfied after 30 years chasing tone.
Why are you running a helix into an amp head? Why not send it to a power cab?
At the time, I didn't have a Powercab and the Helix sounded great going in to the power amp in of the Katana. Since then, I've picked up a Powercab Plus 112 and it sounds even better. I am a very happy camper. The Katana was a good alternative, but the Powercab just nails it.@@pb25193
I have been using a Catalyst for a long while - low/medium gain stuff with a pedalboard. Works great
That having been said, I’m taking a Revv D25 for a spin this weekend. I miss the tube compression that is the last 10% of the tone. However, we will see how it goes
How did it go
@@pb25193 in a word, fantastic. The Revv D25 is a terrific pedal platform and the embedded Two Notes DI works like a dream.
I quite literally unboxed the amp, set it on stage, spent about 3 minutes tweaking the tone stack and played the entire gig. Worth every cent.
I bought a Fender Mustang series when they were first introduced. Sounded great, tons of tonal options (playing in a classic rock cover band) and it "looked the part". And, wait for it... a quarter of the cost of a valve amp. If you want heavy, hot, noisy and fragile, valves are the way to go. If not everyone now has a modeling option.
Right on.
A $120 used Fender Mustang II is the best deal ever, and more than enough for 99% of all guitarists.
Hi there. What is that little Beige amp head you're using and are you getting it's output mic-ed through a cab or are you using something like a torpedo captor? Ta
Great Video John. The latest generation of Modeling Amps, especially Line 6, are Very Close to real Tube Amps. Especially when a Guitar, Effects, and Modeling Amp are Recorded, Mixed, and Mastered, and is part of the Overall Mix. At that point in my opinion, its hard to tell the difference. Thanks.
If you are recording, just use neural plugins
VICTORY--for tube gear that comes in virtually any form factor, mixers, parallel loops, and modeler effects loops for merging both tube and digital technologies. People who have done racks know. Personally I used to take a 50w Fuchs head, a 4sp rack, and 2x12 cab to a tiny venue but I would take a VICTORY Jack TUBE PRE, a modeler & few pedals now.
I think when people say that "modelling amps are more reliable" they don't necessarily mean that they're still going to be around in 60 years. I think they mean that they're not as sensitive to temperature and vibration, and being moved while hot, and such like a tube amp is. I think they mean it's less likely to fail at a critical moment, not that it will last decades.
Yes, once a modeling amp goes, it goes. They're not very serviceable. Eventually the EL capacitors will bulge and leak. They absolutely have a shelf life. But for going out and gigging in various conditions, they're absolutely more reliable than tubes.
I think these days the sound and now even feel (especially if you know how to set up) can be (at least to me) indistinguishable.
(E.g. input impedance, sag, etc)
But having both a helix and small two rock, what my amp gives me is 1 piece of gear I get to know inside out and become really familiar with the dynamics.
On the helix while you could do that, I find I don’t. And the option paralysis become an issue.
Modellers have allowed me to experiment with ‘gear’ I couldn’t afford or may not otherwise invest in.
Note -I do note this is more about the amps, I’m talking more about powercab as the solution to that
i love your channel, but the new advertising segment at the beginning of the video has bad quality mic'd audio imo and is louder than the rest of the vid! is it possible to mix this audio or record it differently? thanks
Isn't it more about which amp/combo can handle FRFR multi fx pedals better whilst maintaining the amp aesthetic?
I've been using digital technology since Roland released the VG-8. I've had a Pod, PodXT, Eleven Rack among other things and now have an Iridium and a ToneX but I still prefer playing through my Supro Delta King 12 (28 lbs). I cannot put my figure on why that is because I'm obviously not a tube snob but there is something that tube amps have that digital does not. With that being said, I have not tried a Tonemaster (23 lbs) or a Catalyst (42 lbs) so maybe they have that mojo? But I have found that I can get all the tones I am looking for out of the Delta King so I do not need $2500 worth of AxeFX III "every amp under the sun".
I think modellers are more consistent. I love my tube amps but it's a real pain if they decide to have an "off" night.
I like the Tonemaster idea, but I think Fender amps are the wrong amps to do it with. As people generally use them with pedals, and they don't seem to take pedals that well. But they sound great au natural.
What would be great is a digital tone master style of a multi channel rock beast like a Soldano or a Marshal JVM or a Mesa.
That way you wouldn't be looking to push the preamp to get the tone.
I am not convinced about the need for infinite choices of amp models when playing live. I think most people settle on a thing they feel comfortable with and use it as a foundation. Much like a real amp set up.
I turned away from tube amps gigging a decade ago. Used to have orange rockerverb and a 2x12. Also a tiny terror to drive a talkbox. Then out of laziness got a pod500hd and just did that for a bit. I wouldn’t have swapped to a modelling amp because that’s still lugging stuff around whereas the pod I just threw in a backpack. For talkbox got rid of the Dunlop heil and just got a rocktron banshee that has the amp built in.
I must say, some solid state amps are very good. I also have a couple of "modelling" amps which don't get the credit they deserve. They're extremely good. There's really no flies on them. It does depend on the amp, though. I thought the Kanata MK2 100 sounded good but the 50MK2 sounded really poor. I"ve had different experiences with the tonemasters, the catalyst, and the Fender GT/GTX. It really does depend on the particular AMP, of course.
Yes to modelling. Easier to work with at home for me and have the possiblity of working at low volumes. Living in a high-rise environment I can't imagine how often police would be at my doorstep if I had a real tube amp cranked up. Also, minimal difference in the mix once it is recorded. If I can tell any, that is.
I have modelling amps and valve amps .I personally much prefer the valve amps ,I tend to feel the notes tend to die off quicker on modelling amps . I personally feel and hear the difference.
how are you getting these tones directly from the Cat>? i have one and for the life of me cannot get it to sound like this
The difference is when you play at loud stage volumes. My modefided fender twin with 12L EVS sounds massive on stage but weighs 100+ lbs. so does my roland cubes 80 watt x 2 , plus 2x1x12 cabs . but is portable. It all depends on if you can run big rigs at the gig. Big rigs sound the best on and off stage. My small rig 2x 30 watt roland cubes is perfect for small gigs. I do not play no amps on stage gigs.
I have a Fender GT200 and Tonex. I play only in my music room. It's perfect.
I have a monthly gig that's live streamed on UA-cam. I used to Helix for about 8 months and then I went back to tube amps. I think the tube amp sounds better on the live stream and live in general. When I step on a boost for the solo you can hear it because The amplifier has a mic on it. When I go out of the Helix or power cab straight to front of house you can't hear my solos through the UA-cam mix or front of house. Maybe I'm doing something wrong I don't know. Anyway I'm using my amp and I like it better.
For me when I'm using a Helix, I have a snapshot for Solos which has a boost on the Ch Vol.
I actually gigged a real amp again for the first time last weekend and had a great time.....
I have a Catalyst 200 watts 2x12 .... i use it as a power amp then in front a mesa flying v tube preamp for valve warm sound and a pedal board with chuggy empress distortion n finally an mxr eq pedal ..
Now i use clean sound with the mesa bypassed ... then bluesy tone ... now i love tube amps but they cost 2/3 times more than a Catalyst ( might get another one ahaha) . There isn't anything better or worse it 's what u prefer .. so i don't think i'll ever get into kempers or totally digital ... i like things on tap and work out me routines on a planned fly with pedals when i need a " certain" sound ..
U can have everything planned n programmed like Meshuggah but it's a bit too cold for me ..
The mesa flying v preamp gives me warmth and that's irreplaceable .. i wouldn't want to use a helix or kemper and be done with it ....
It's certainly easier to have a rack .... i think the answer is ... yei to Catalyst or Katanas and yei to some tube within the chain
So
I paid $39 for my Line 6 AM4. Old, yes but it works for me. At this point though it seems like better and more modern amp sim pedals are becoming cheap so I may upgrade in the near future.
Never tried the catalyst, but I'll praise the katana here. Great fucken amp. My friend has one and brings it to gigs regularly with me. I play tube amps.. I have a bill m modded blues jr and a dsl20 with a greenback. I use those on smaller venues. On bigger venues I use either a jcm900 4x12, vox ac30 it a fender twin that my band has access to. So I think I have the experience to say that the katana is a great fucking amp and no it doesnt get humiliated by the tube amps I use in terms of sound quality. It has a great sound of its own. I'm sure getting one sometime. Btw I also have another friend that has a sick tube amp collection that includes a vintage fender dual showman and a fucking bassman haha. He got himself a katana and mainly gigs with it now lol.
Metallica used a Roland unit of some sort on Load and Reload back in the 90s I read. Was one of the only ways to get those tones in one place back then was a modeling unit. Yes, they had them....forgot the name of the unit but it was astronomically priced back then like 2 grand. Now the Boss floor units have more power in them.
I alternate between both depending on the gig... I always smile more when using a tube amp.
Most players under 50 yrs old have never actually played an ALL-tube amp since (90%) have transistors/clipping diodes as the source of distortion/tone. In the final analysis , it's all depends on what: the budget allows, the music and the venue requires. Although there are many more choices than back in the day, these factors haven't changed.
I believe (by way of extensive comparison) tube amps sound better than other amp formats. That said, some of the cheap tube amp choices don't sound as good as Boss Katana can. The argument comes down to how you expect to use your amp and, of course, what you can afford.
If you’re playing, you know the difference, and that inspires you … if you’re playing and can’t distinguish… happy life!
Reliability .. pfft, BS … never had one blow out live, yet always have a back up in its cover behind it.
There is a difference… if you can’t tell the difference, happy days. Can the audience tell the difference in the mix … who cares!!!
I’m playing and feeling the dynamics …
I am i tube amp guy, i do like modelers just always seems to come back to amps now not all tube amps, like my orange cr120 its my favorite over any amp ever, love my boss gt1000 core it has great sounds so I kind of feel like i am stuck in the middle somewhere
i work on live gigs and hear kempers, other modelers and real tube amps on daily basis. the difference might be only 10 % but it's 10% of presence and liveliness. something that you won't give up if you are playing a solo. for clean stuff and backing modelers are fine. the main reason that many players went to the dark side is that backline amps suck .
I totally agree now these modelers are si good no need for tube amps now.
Just my 2 cent opinion: I became tired of hauling expensive, heavy heads to practice, the volume levels required to hit the sweet spot and how they can just sometimes not work after hauling to a gig, suddenly get microphonic or have power phase issues ….so I jumped on the virtualized/modeling thing when it was just gaining steam. Pods and vamps etc. Affordable early modeling kind of fell way, way short when jamming and directly comparing analog rigs vs digital modeling rigs. For me, the feel, bounce, interplay that tube amps give you was just missing. They had good tones available but it was kind of “meh”. I reverted to analog but stayed hopeful. I eventually landed on what is in my opinion, an incredibly affordable virtualized rig stuffed with value that had all the tones and feel I wanted. The Atomic Amplifier 12. It’s a little outdated in terms of the interface but it is very affordable, feature packed, very tweakable, lightweight with easy to store presets for restores or resets, though I’ve never needed to.
As the model imprinting and IR tech has improved recently many pro players are already opting for the ease of use, portage and reliability. The latest batch of modeling boxes that hit the streets over the last couple of years combined with the availability of computer apps and plugins like NAM will likely end up replacing most analog rigs over time.
Come on, get yourself a Fractal Audio FM3 or FM9...and just be happy!
Or maybe...a KEMPER Stage in the near future - with "Liquid Profiling"...!!!
I don’t think the difference in a mix is worth the hassle most of the time. However, I’ve been unsuccessful in convincing the recording engineer to record my Helix instead of lugging in my vintage amps.
That said, I’ve recently been trying to replicate the sound of my 68’ Princeton Reverb in my Helix, and there’s a clarity and presence in the note attack I’m having trouble matching. When I replace the amp block with the actual amp the real one sounds noticeably better.
Regarding the weight, most players I know who are allergic to modeling are lugging around back-breaking vintage Vox AC30’s, Fender Twin and Marshall half-stacks. The neo Fender Twin is still around 60 lbs. I think the weight argument probably holds up for many of the tube amp holdouts.
I read an interview with a well known producer - I forget the specifics - about 5 years back who produced Whitesnake and/or Black Sabbaths recent albums, and he admitted that they'd recorded playing their rigs, but 'on the quiet' they'd taken DIs of the guitars. During mixing they ditched the amp recordings and put the DIs through amp sim software. The band(s) never knew, said it sounded great and that's what got released.
Using a modeler into a JC-120 fx return has been the right balance for me.
I'm keen to try one of the JCs....Is yours a modern one or a bit older?
@@johnnathancordy mine is a newer model.
But I’m in Japan so I plug into JC-120’s of all ages all over the place.
I wanna say all I ever really notice is whether it’s too old to have the fx return.
But if I’m playing a different model of the amp it’s in a different room so I’m not getting an apples to apples tonal comparison so until I hear them side by side I’m withholding judgment
I now have a HoTone Ampero II for the effects and a IK Multimedia ToneX for amp simulation in the FX loop of the Ampero. It works like a gem.
My presets are 1 to 1 between the two. 0-1 on the Ampero matches 0-1 on the Tonex. Trust me, no other amp will sound better.
3 clean presets
3 edge of break up presets
3 crunch presets
3 lead presets
This is all you need.
Why 3 sets? Voxy, Fendery, Marshall-ish?
@@waynedoherty7758 correct, e.g. on the clean presets. 1 is jazz, 1 is John Mayer sound, 1 is SRV sound. Some presets may add special delay, chorus or tremolo. Then I add those as switched effects on my Ampero.
I personally think the amp + cab sounds on the ToneX are in general better than modeled amps.
At least from a sound perspective, I don't think it's possible at a fundamental level for a "modeling" amp to be "better" than a tube amp. By definition, the ultimate goal of a modeling amp is to sound EXACTLY like a tube amp--at which point, modeling will be "on par" with tubes, not better. Even the best modelers (profilers like the Kemper, Neural DSP, NAM) are measured by accuracy to their source material--which is the tube amp.
That said, I got rid of my tube amps and use my HX stomp through an EV PA speaker. Not because it's "better"... but because it's good enough.
I think the difference is similar to the enduring wrangle over digital or analogue keyboards. Digital sounds inorganic and organic sounds tremendous when she reaches top C sharp.
Digital is sterile ... so countless offspring ... but they all look and talk with a list and a twist of crystal.
Valves pulsate and grind in a million overtones... unless the tubes are shot... in which case they become very painful ...
I imagine.
I am always going to choose my Synergy Syn30 with Morgan Module over a modeler for electric (pedal platform). It has a very good, cab sim XLR out which can be used in tandem with a real cab or two and is MIDI switchable for (3) pre-amp flavors that can be balanced. I do adore the HX Stomp with my Godin Nylon direct to house though. One real advantage I like about the Synergy is I can rehearse at home and send the cab-sim to my EV PA speakers to get an idea how it will translate FOH, while also monitoring through an actual cab. It gets me closer to the actual translation.
I've tried to go the modeling amp and digital effect route but found that I just kept tweaking to try to get goods sounds. Analog is just so much easier to plug in and just play