‘unconsciously’ seeking abusers? | bogus therapy [cc]
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- Asserting spurious unconscious/subconscious motives is a practice that’s contaminated the world of therapy, the social sciences and general public discourse. I explore this burden-shifting red herring with special reference to targets of abuse who’ve been told they were ‘unconsciously’ seeking abusers.
You can support the channel at: / theramintrees
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0:00 a double consciousness?
3:33 motives, demonic and unconscious
4:44 detective work
5:27 wolves behind mirrors
6:34 con artists and abusers
7:24 some straw men
10:04 Adam - ‘the clown’
15:31 Cally - ‘water on rock’
19:00 Finn - ‘the mender’
24:07 Muna - ‘the passenger’
28:18 closing thoughts
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opening quote:
We wouldn’t assume an individual who had
been repeatedly scammed by con artists was
‘unconsciously’ seeking these abusers out.
And yet when it comes to abusive relationships
for some therapists it’s the standard supposition.
--
subtitles
Russian: Sergey Savelyev
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music © TheraminTrees
Full original music tracks used in videos are available to patreon supporters who pledge at the $1 per video level.
![resisting emotional blackmail | when 'compassion' corrupts [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PEexQAkhFpM/mqdefault.jpg)
![resisting emotional blackmail | when 'compassion' corrupts [cc]](/img/tr.png)
![when saviours go bad | drama disguised as help [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sXcTIkuzQ3I/mqdefault.jpg)
![letting go of fixing people [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mdDAHekq9yc/mqdefault.jpg)
The answer of "why do abused people get trapped by new abusers" probably goes in the opposite direction: it's not that the victims are attracted to the abuser, it's that the abuser is attracted to the victim. In 2013, a study published in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence titled "Psychopathy and Victim Selection: The Use of Gait as a Cue to Vulnerability" by Book, Costello, Camilleri found that psychopaths can accurately and consistently detect whether or not someone has experienced trauma just by watching a video of them walking down a hallway. Simply knowing about the victim's previous trauma (even without hearing a single word about what happened) tells the psychopath that the victim might be easier to control or manipulate by using their previous trauma as leverage. It's like your wound is dripping blood into a pool of sharks: the sharks are attracted to you even if you're not attracted to them.
I remember reading this. My narcissitic sister once told me that she could easily spot other manipulators (that was 30 years ago, at the time she said manipulators, we were not aware of what narcissism was) and people she could manipulate... Later I understpod that it included me...
the thought occurred to me too while watching. abusers, even if they are still able to manipulate, would also have a harder time keeping people around who are not childhood victims. those people can actively fight it and adapt more appropriately to the situation, their minds have not been poisoned. its not worth the risk with these people, when you can find victims who have been molded since childhood not to fight back and who has less to lose, or nothing to come back to
Can you be attracted to vulnerable people without being an abuser? I find myself often attracted to people that have been made dependent by someone in their past and that might need me more. I'm very attentive and protective, but a friend says that overly protective people in relationships most of the time are also controlling. I can't gauge how true that is. I want to express all of my love to someone and be appreciated for it. Do narcissists even love other people? My sister was a terrible one I had to colive with, and I can't imagine the answer being yes.
@@ekkehard8 I'm no therapist, but the fact that you're aware of that and don't want to be that way speaks volumes about your character.
@@ekkehard8 My husband is incredibly protective of me and not the tiniest bit controlling. So yes, it is possible. I think it's especially important for protective people to watch for any tendency to be controlling, but they don't necessarily go together. How do you define "be appreciated"? Wanting thanks is natural, but it's still always good to make sure you're not too demanding. You're probably okay, just keep on.
Therapist: "you're unconsciously seeking abusers"
Client: "Is that how I found you?"
Haha this is brilliant. May use that one if I ever need to
That's exactly what I was thinking
The only proper comeback
🤣
Well said! 😄👍
This reminds me of the saying that "It always takes two to start a conflict!"
No, it doesn't.
I've heard this sentence so often by Caretakers, Teachers, and People of Responsibility.
Bullies don't need a reason to kick you around. Sometimes just being there and existing is enough reason for them. Is being there the victims fault? No, it isn't.
I like this game, I’ll add a few more blanket statements I disagree with here:
1) “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”
2) “There isn’t a wrong way to be upset”
The problem with these pop-culture self-help lines is, I didn’t realize the truth was negotiable? Sometimes two parties can own a part in a situation and they should both apologize, but forfeiting your reality to keep the peace is never good.
Then, there is in fact a right and a wrong way to be upset. We teach little kids that they don’t get what they want by yelling and throwing things, and the same goes for adults. If someone is upset by your behavior you can and should be able to expect them to approach you calmly; if they don’t, then irregardless of what you did, you should be able to expect an apology from them, too.
Technically it's true. You need the aggressor and the unknowing victim
@@Gwestytears I guess you could say you need two to have a conflict, but it only one of them to start it?
@@-JaggedGrace- In this context it would make a lot more sense.
@@Gwestytears This saying was used in a way to turn down complaints and make you question yourself rather then go seek help again.
"The Unconscious" is the quantum physics of psychology. It definetely means something, but it loses it's conceptual meaning when people apply it acritically to explain things they don't understand
Therapists using "the unconscious" or "subconsciously" or "repression" is like when those snake oil peddlers sell salt lamps with "positive energy" and "high frequencies" and "molecular structures".
Sure, those terms exist. But they're being used as a jargon flashbang to prevent you from seeing the bullshit.
@eric Spencer lmao
@eric Spencer maybe consider not paying them and leaving before resorting to violence...
@@lounowell4171 the joke --->
your head
@@parkerwilliams7236 I got it, just not very funny, it's the kind of thing a teenager would say as a combo of spite and humour
when y'all a bit older you'll realise that even if you disagree with your psych or think they're a moron, "lol i punch u in face" is a pretty immature, useless way to deal with your very real issues
“Ditch any therapist who says that you are unconsciously seeking abusers.”
Yes. Solid advice. Thank you.
But what if you are? Lol
Acting like people never continue to re-seek unhealthy relationships is silly. It doesn’t mean EVERYONE does, but why are we trying to assert that the norm is that NO ONE does?
@@gej300v I mean that’s true it does happen some people seek trouble no argument there. But I think the video explains what it’s talking about, and common sense dictates you understand that a lie cannot be blamed on the person being lied to.
@@gej300v There's just so many problems with the idea of "the unconscious mind" that it's best to leave it in the category of pseudoscience until more definite things can be said about it.
I'll list out a few problems that come to mind:
1) The unconscious would have to be a magical detector for abusers. Many abusers don't show the fact they are abusive during first impressions. Somehow a person who manages to end up around a lot of abusers must conclude that their unconscious is seeing something in people that determines if someone is abusive or not.
2) This one is a really dangerous thought: if my unconscious mind attracts me to abusive people, then perhaps everyone I know is abusive. How could they argue otherwise? Maybe some people just take longer to show abusive behaviour than others? All of a sudden, everyone is a potential threat and no one can be trusted (including any therapist).
3) Why stop at abusers? We can carry this idea to its destructive conclusion: everything we say and do is controlled by the unconscious. Every situation we fall into was determined from the beginning, and there's nothing we can do about it. The unconscious must be the driving factor behind every human decision, and we are helpless witnesses with no control over it. Every attempt we take in controlling it was already decided by the unconscious, and in the end we are just a pawn in a game we fail to comprehend. Everyone is either an unconscious oppressor or an unconscious oppressed. All is an endless war for power.
4) To put it simply, it's an unfalsifiable claim. A good rule of thumb for detecting bad ideas is if it explains everything, it also explains nothing. In other words, it's absolutely useless information. Similar to the idea we don't have free will. People will often say "everything you will ever do is predetermined". But when one asks "ok, so what will I do next?......" You can see how it tells us nothing new about reality, essentially making it a useless idea (which begs the philosophical question if it's true or not).
To sum everything up, the unconscious is a very useless idea and shouldn't really be used as an explanation for why people do things. I'm not saying it's entirely false (hence the unfalsifiability). But since we barely understand the mechanisms behind consciousness, why in God's name would we burden ourselves with unconsciousness too. There's too many unknowns with it and there's too many pitfalls when taking it seriously.
@@dannydewario1550 what I said had NOTHING to do with the legitimacy of the unconscious mind, so I don’t know why you’re taking that up as an angle to refute my point.
I’m just asserting that people are self-destructive sometimes, and i think this should be common sense for anyone who has observed human behavior.
Acting like it doesn’t happen because some people abuse the idea of the unconscious is throwing the baby out with the bath water. People are capable of being self-destructive in all kinds of ways, whether it’s engaging in bad relationships, substance abuse, gambling, chasing risky behavior, etc.
@@gej300v But who said it doesn’t happen? The point people are making is that the unconscious isn’t the answer. If someone is consciously seeking bad relationships, I don’t think anyone here is saying no one does. It just needs another viable explanation other than “you probably want this deep down.” No one wakes up and wishes to be treated like utter crap each day. They’re usually looking for something else and abuse just happens to come with it.
I had a “therapist” who practically opened each session with “so have you talked to your dad recently?” After I had made it very clear that my dad was the problem in my situation and I had been actively avoiding my dad. I wanted him to show me how to get on without a father figure but instead he tried to convince me that the abuse was all in the past and I should try to make amends. B*tch please it is not my responsibility to mend the relationship with my abuser. Thank you Mr Trees once again for your absolutely crucial work
i think a lot of the time, its easy to forget that doctors are still fallible, biased humans. especially therapists and psychiatrists whose work is often more dependent on personal opinion than objectively measurable factors. theres no blood test for trauma. perhaps this therapist of yours saw his own sins in the actions of your father, and craved (or wanted to create) proof that forgiveness was possible and even necessary. perhaps he had kids who didnt much talk to him anymore. trusting your therapist is key to making progress, but that trust should be based in positive experiences and not just unquestioned authority.
@@Saibellus I wonder what the therapist's reaction would have been if Shloomth responded to the question by looking the therapist in the eye, leaning forward attentively and saying with grave concern, "I'd like to explore why it's so important to you that I speak to my father. What significance does that have for you?"
@@allanmason3201 *writes note*
"Patient defensive regarding topic of their father".
Was this therapist religious?
@@Saibellus So many thoughtful comments and at the same time not attacking. Thank you for this rare type of comment.
It makes a sick sort of sense, if you think about it. Part of what makes abusers so successful in what they do is that they start so small and escalate slowly until it's just "normal" for him to tear you down and undermine you and reduce you to tears on the daily. By the time he starts hitting you, you already are conditioned to _believe_ that you _deserve_ it. When you believe you deserve to be insulted, degraded, and kicked around, you don't look for better, or you settle for "at least this one isn't hitting me."
In the end, though, it's not that "victims unconsciously seek abusers", it's that _predators specifically target vulnerable people._
Abusers are experts at boiling frogs
This happened to me over 5 years. The day he got violent though, it's like the rose tinted glasses came off because I'd seen a family member (don't want to specify as that's her business) go through that directly and that caused me a lot of childhood trauma, and I realised I didn't want that future with a person like that 😐
I still question whether I deserved it even though I know logically I didn't. It's fucked up.
The unconfidenent control freaks looking to use and abuse with a misery likes company kind of thing...or how serial killers choose victims.
@@lynniewood true.
if you have to question whether you deserve it or not maybe the therapist has a point when they say it's not all about the abuser, a person that they can't help when they're sitting in their office with you
Once, when I forgot a session, my psychiatrist asked me if I unconsciously felt like I no longer needed the sessions. I've always been baffled by that response, like I'm incapable of forgetting things, and must have some ulterior motive.
In another video, Theramin mentions that the teacher (!) at a therapist training course he was taking insisted that they find psychological explanations for a client being late, and what their explanations for their lateness really meant, and when Theramin asked something like "what if they genuinely did get stuck in traffic?" the teacher replied with "that doesn't give me anything to work with."
It's amazing/worrying how much nonsense can get taught and accepted by otherwise intelligent people!
If they thought you were incapable of forgetting things, they wouldn't have asked the question.
Why ask that question? I mean if it was true you wouldn't know it, would you?
@@newperve That... is a very good point.
That happened to me as well. she refused to accept "I forgot" as an answer as if I did not have 3 children I was trying to raise on an income of less than $500 a month and zero support network of any kind. As if all I had to do in life was come to her weekly session. She got so aggressive about it that I just caved and agreed that I missed it on purpose because another part of me did not want to go. After that I stopped going as I realized she treated all the people in our group therapy the same as she dictated what they said instead of listening.
I sought out therapy while being bullied at work. The therapist claimed that I was subconsciously seeking out being bullied due to an abusive childhood. Eventually, I found another therapist who pointed out that I had difficulty establishing boundaries (never heard the term before) and was lacking in assertiveness. Sadly the original therapist is still offering their services and will, no doubt, be confusing more vulnerable people.
"Seeking" is a bad word for it. Its not that people actively look to be abused. They often just lack skills as you mentioned like setting boundaries which enables and sometimes encourages others to take advantage.
Make sure to spread awareness about the past therapist
@@WaterCat5 i agree with you here, this is about pattern matching/ relational habits. You weren't seeking it bc you wanted it, you sought it out because it was familiar.
That's so stupid like how were you supposed to know the people in that job were gonna bully you? You don't exactly choose your co workers like you do a boyfriend or friends. What an absolute moron, glad you dumped that therapist.
That is secret Victim blaming. Dumb therapust
IMHO part of the problem is that, when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I say this, not as an expert, but after having experienced bad and good therapy.
The hypothesis that people “seek out” abusive partners for some weird reason offers a convenient, pre-packaged piece of cookie-cutter advice that lazy therapists can apply without having to actually listen to their clients or do a deep-dive into their issues. And the temptation for therapists to adopt that approach is probably all the more profound when they only offer six sessions per client.
The worst part is when you question this kind of advice and you get accused of being uncooperative and/or ungrateful.
Another brilliant video, thanks again.
Cheers HMC. Yes, like you say, it unfortunately seems to become a template theory for some therapists doesn't it - which then blocks the effortful investigation they're being payed extremely handsomely to do.
"accused of being uncooperative and/or ungrateful". this is what I've been told on numerous occasions when giving my opinion.
'Ditch any therapist who tells you you're unconsciously seeking abusers'
The whole field of psychoanalysis and its tainted past:
*heavy sweats*
Yeah lmao you're just wrong. Kohurtian psychoanalysts and Lacanian ones would never tell anyone that, and both of those schools consider the other illegitimate. Kohurtian psychoanalysis is preoccupied with providing the parentship that the client never had (being supportive and all) while Lacanians are just forbidden from providing *any* interpretation.
You just don't know about psychoanalysis.
@@Hemitheos_Atys Yes, though let's not try to pretend people still use, misuse and misunderstand Freudian and Jungian psychoanalysis and surely let's not forget the harmful things they brought.
Bad psychoanalytic practises are very much alive, in every school of psychoanalysis, and the old schools aren't dead either. And there's a reason the person mentioned the tainted past... On which the present, at least for some, is founded
@@alienora.sedinensis I think that usually comes down more to the individual at that point, personal biases (and idiocy) lead to crap tactics, like the ones they’re knows for a bad past with lol
Even tho Freud invented modern psychoanalysis, He definely also caused some Irreparable damage with a lot of his “theories” (his own projections.)
This is probably going to be buried in the comment section, but your videos have genuinely made me make improvements on my life. From currently being on the path of quitting a certain physical and psychological addiction, to denying the abusers and manipulators in my life, to helping people dear to me with the insight and knowledge gathered from these videos, to slowly making steps to improve my life and myself. On behalf of myself and perhaps thousands of other people, you sir have my deepest appreciation.
Probability wave collapsed :) Unlikely things inevitably happen a lot, it's just hard to predict when and where exactly :)
I love hearing about people managing to pick themselves up and be their own champion. Good vibes and well wishes to you and your loved ones. Stay safe and healthy, fellow human.
I second this
Thank you for your comment…and for being an inspiration
"honey, wake up! TheraminTrees just posted!"
Good to have you back. I hope you're doing well.
Yes!!!! Same here, I’m supporting him on Patreon and always give my cousins a heads-up on new videos. It’s like free therapy, but higher quality than most paid therapy. Priceless ❤️
What really irritates me about the idea of subconsciously asking for abuse is that there’s no solution offered when that rhetoric is given. In Mona’s case, when she found the real problem of her maladaptive freeze response, she began to take assertiveness classes which actually helped. Before that, she was just told she wanted her father, which wasn’t helpful and didn’t offer any solutions. If the unconscious mind is something we are unaware of, then we can’t change its behavior, which means that therapists who say that are actively failing their clients by making them feel helpless and keeping them from real solutions
I strongly think that subconscious belief can totally be changed. Or at least being put more nuance to it. It's just take longer than conscious one because it takes actual consistent experience to overwrite it (instead of conscious one where you can just be told to)
@@letsreadtextbook1687The problem is that. The unconscious (as wise folk conceives it) doesn’t exist.
There are automatic (not unconscious) responses. Which can be changed, it’s what makes CBT so powerful.
There is not an homunculus in your head, neither another will that is benevolent or unchangeable according to the doctrine.
We should leave behind such a stupid idea…
@@-TheUnkownUser Automatic responses are conscious? This isn't consistent with my experience of gaining awareness of my automatic responses slowly and gradually over time. To me, this inherently implies a change in state, hence my behavior prior to then was "unconscious."
@@user-gh8wh3ur7q What I’m trying to say is that unconscious thinking in the traditionally meaning, is heavily based on Freud’s theory. Which is the “secularization” of God. The invisible force present in everyone of us.
What I reject is such tradition. Automatic thinking is not conscious per se…
If you actually read the whole argument I gave a clear reference.
Read with care.
@@user-gh8wh3ur7q automatic responses don't follow a subconscious system of beliefs. they're just fast and hard to control, but they're not made up of a secret monster in ur head. that's called ✨gaslighting✨ (when someone convinces you you have thoughts, feelings, motives, or experiences you know you don't have)
"Your family doesn't make you angry, you make you angry." - My last counselor. After arguing that point for about 10 minutes, I left and never saw another counselor ever again, that was over 15 years ago. I learned that day, they don't know what they're talking about. I know myself better.
I wanna joke and say "did we see the same counselor?" but it is just more likely both our counselors were trained the same incorrect way.
@@amorasilverspark Training material is full of very basic information. These are further 'sumarised' by wannabe therapists and that's all they remember. Often missing the nuanced details of the original source. They apply easy one liners to their patients.
To me a therapist always seemed more like someone I could just talk to and possibly get some insight / advice from
I didn't care all too much if I had any issues (knowing anything major would've showed itself by now) and anything I may have I have lived with.
This is why I despise therapists with a passion, they aren't just a professional with professional advice who I can talk to. It feels like they are interrogating me to find out what's wrong with me.
Shame you didn't responded "no, you making me angry!" And shut the door behind 😂😂😂
based
My main abusers were my own parents, and time and time again in my life I had to move back into their home or I would of been homeless. I knew what it meant every time, but I kept going back over and over because it felt like it was the only option. Every "therapist" I ever went to said it was my own fault for one reason of another and tried to get me to take some pill to help me cope with my situation. Not a one tried to help me break away from my family, but to make me so docile I would accept the abuse without fighting back.
The only reason why I finally broke away was due to a friend I met online that gave me a means to get away for good. My friend could see the real problem, and it was not with me but my parents. They offered me a place to stay, and I still live my friend to this day. I've never been happier in my entire life. The only time I might see my parents ever again is maybe at their funerals.
I'm glad you got out.
@eric Spencer My main hobby is digital art. My current job though takes too much time and energy as of late (lack of help), so I haven't had much time to practice or enjoy it.
"So yeah I literally have no other place to go. I can either live on the streets or live with abusers. Do you mind getting me resources like housing or financial assistance or-"
"Clearly the problem is you want to be abused. Take medicine."
"But I don't need medicine, I need housing. The problem is 100% material. I just need a third option and I will be good."
"Don't care, I'm giving you meds."
This is insane. I have experienced this as well. Why won’t therapist help with finding practical resources but always meds?
Absolutely 💯% thank you for sharing
So, the rabbit came to the therapist saying: “Wolfs keep chasing me, I don’t know what to do!” Fox therapist says: “It is because yours subconsciousness make You to seek the wolfs. It is all Your fault! Just be a good prey and calm down. Also, give me Your money for me helping You.” ;-)
“Give me your money,” says the therapist with a wolfish grin.
@@michaelzedd2540 “my, what big notepads you have…”
@@mr.cup6yearsago211 “All the better to keep track of how much owe me, My Dear.”
This is the perfect example! The predator is seeking out the prey.
The prey isn't actively seeking out the predators and accepting the abuse...at most, the prey only "fails" to *successfully* avoid the predator & "fails" to *successfully* escape the predator before the abuse starts. And that's not the fault of the prey.
We never blame the rabbits for being eaten by the wolves. When a rabbit fails to escape the wolf's jaw, after the teeth have already gotten them, we don't assume the rabbit chose this, that they preferred to be with the wolf and not safely far away...we never claim the wolf has the rabbit's consent. 😒
@@sorryifoldcomment8596 well said
"A seahorse who learned kung fu"
beautiful image. I love it
This reminds me of that common "myth" people try to spread that says if a person experiences a string of bad relationships, then it's that person's fault, because they are the "common denominator". Thanks for addressing this sort of stuff. I'd like to see a full video from you about the "common denominator" lie, if possible.
I wouldn't bring in the idea of fault, but I don't see how it's a "lie" if a person has a string of bad experiences. It's either bad luck or they are, indeed, the common denominator.
Well, saying it's not the person fault just exempt them from any responsibility about their choices and just playing the victim card will keep them in the loop when actually assuming responsibility for their bad choices will set them free and make them feel more empowered to make better decisions because they're not acting from a victim it's not me but you mentality.
@@melis6294 Nothing is ever just one person's fault, of course. That's why I'm against it when people tell someone things like that. I never said anything about saying it's not their fault, just that it's wrong to insist that it is with no basis other than some faulty logic that excludes so many other factors.
@@lounowell4171 Lou… fuck off. You’re making bad takes on every comment and no one is agreeing.
Lol, like Taylor Swift comes to mind XD
These videos are an amazing showcase of how valuable it can be to identify and isolate issues and concepts. It’s like watching someone make an artform of “putting your finger on it”. My takeaway is that if my therapist is blaming problems on the boogeyman, I may as well be paying for sessions with a palm reader.
I think it's good that you debunked the "unconscious desire" idea while still acknowledging that there are patterns of behavior that come out of abusive relationships that can contribute to perpetuating the cycle.
But surely humans can sometimes have certain unconscious ideas and desires...
@@tablat1651 For example?
I always thought it was more that a person who has been abused has already been groomed to be a victim so its easier for new abusers to find and start targeting them. How are professionals claiming this shit?
Here's the thing: Humans and the relationships between them are obscenely complex. But, to a further or lesser extent, you're correct. Most of the time, survivors either lack the skills that others have that generally protect them from abuse (e.g., assertiveness, boundary setting skills, deception detection skills, relationship skills), fall prey to someone who is extremely good at playing the long game (which also happens to "healthy" people), and so on and so forth.
As a therapist in training, one thing that I have observed is that most therapists are very poorly trained. Most lack diagnostician skills and are usually given virtually no training in terms of how to actually do therapy. Unless you seek out books and manuals specifically for how to go about therapy, most therapists are trained with a "shoulder shrug approach"; they're left to devise therapeutic methods by themselves. Unfortunately, training for a vast majority of therapists is more like that of a creative writing class than that of an applied scientist or medical practitioner.
Your videos helped me escape Christianity, and the harsh community I was in... watching this video, the music, the visuals, your voice - after the long gap between uploads, was somewhat nostalgic.
So much has changed since then, I appreciate you greatly. I want to see more of you again.
I hope whatever reason for the gap was, all is well :)
@TheraminTrees was very helpful to me while I was deconverting as well. Definitely a channel that holds a special place to me.
Just don't jump from the frying pan cult into any of the many fire cults, including psyence, "ethics" or political which must be obeyed and not questioned too. This was a brilliant video on those points.
@@Questioner365 by “psyence” are you talking about science? If so, “science” is not a cult it’s just the accumulated knowledge gained from empirical research. (Technically science is the process of gaining the information, hence the quotations.)
@@Rudol_Zeppili Maybe they meant pseudoscience?
@@IvanBaturaChannel given that they added Psy to it that is probably the case
There's a lot of good things to takeaway from this. If anyone is making you doubt your own mind, it's probably gaslighting. If your therapist is on a pedistol and makes assumptions about how your mind works without investigating, they're not legit. If it feels like you're fighting with instead of collaborating with your therapist, get a new therapist.
doubt is healthy just don't let it be all-consuming
WHERE ARE U BEEN???? we miss you!
this video just hits right in time. I'ts been a while since I visit your channel and u opened my eyes at my 18 years old. I'm 22 now. Words are not enough to express my gratitude for how much you have educated me. I send you greetings from Argentina.
Alto canal 💫
He was quite ill for a while, which he shared on Patreon. Hopefully he's back for good.
I was 17 when I started watching him, now I'm 20
Wow good for you ! I realized it at 32 and it took me 3 years to feel normal
Finally, a good debunking of the bogus psychoanalysis. I am very sad this is still being practiced.
@@KitchenWitchery seems like you're already well on your way to getting better 👍
I'm sorry there are no proper professionals to help you in your area, though
Here's a shocker, unconscious processes exist. Here's another, psychoanalysts specifically prohibit overriding analysand input via unconscious speculation. There's literature on that, Google imaginary transference versus symbolic transference.
@@CsikiFranciscAlex how are you so confident about something inherently unfalsifiable?
No psychoanalyst should outright tell you, 2 sessions in, that you keep dating bossy women cause you are subconciously seeking approval from your perfectly supportive mom, that's just stupid, the way it's phrased and timed is stupid, it's absurd. There's a lot of bad and evil doctors out there but not every doctor is a bad or evil one
@@FlinnyWinny not all unconscious processes are, though. There are several tricks of the visual system, for example, that automatically filter out excess information without your conscious input. This can be repeatedly tested with the same result.
This reminds me of all these UA-cam channels that throw around the term Narcissist Magnet, it always seemed like victim blaming and this video clearly explains why I saw those channels as red flags and never watched them
Well, usually they talk about a number of personality traits which narcissists find extremely attractive which are result of the turbulent upbringing. Combine it with normalisation of toxic dynamics, and we get a people pleaser with poor boundaries which is highly susceptible to manipulation. All of that has roots in personal history.
@@melis6294 Just like how a woman in a short shirt skirt is asking for it....It was her responsibility to not provoke men by her choice of attire....sure :/
@@gauloise6442 how ignorant you are. So you're saying that every woman with a short skirt will be attacked because it's out of her control what happens to her. How silly is that thinking.
We are what we think about ourselves. When feel confident, empowered and truly appreciate our life and feel worthy of being yourself those kind of men won't even show up in your path.
You people like to have the victim mentality all the time, because it's just so easy than owning up and or make the emotional necessary changes so your life improves.
Victim mentality is what keeps people stuck. Good luck with your life and your victimhood attitude.
@@melis6294 If I come up to you and plunge a knife in your throat, slitting it open, because I’d love to hear you gasp as you lose your breath, you should ask yourself why you’re not wearing a turtleneck and what you’re trying to accomplish.
We can’t control others, we only have control of ourselves. And if you make the wrong decisions, like not wearing a turtleneck 24/7 or neck protection, you have to own up and not just play the victim role because it’s easier to just judge and blame others than to judge and analyse your own actions or poor choices, even as your clothes get dyed in that beautiful scarlet shade, slowly drenching your chest. You have to take care in what kind of message you’re projecting when you go out like that, showing off that soft, vulnerable neck of yours. Like, we have to talk about your responsibility in that. You have to take responsibility when someone stomps over your human rights. After all, that responsibility falls on you, not others.
@@melis6294 Each person is responsible for their own behavior. No person can make someone respond a certain way. A predator is still a predator no matter what someone is wearing. Your reasoning sounds like what a rapist would say.
Before watching the video: I've been taught that I am attracted to abusers and I believe it. I came to the point where I often avoid people I find attractive because, in my experience, if I'm attracted, they are probably broken and going to hurt me.
After watching the video: I had several Aha! moments during the video. I care give. I nurture. Average folks can accept some caregiving, but abusive ppl will take and take and take. While I had found my abusers to be attractive, I really didn't want to be with them. I wanted to help them and then move on, but they kept me there and kept me just giving and giving. To make matters worse, I was gaslighted from birth to doubt my own self and accept whatever someone else said as reality and I was taught that the feelings and needs of others matter more than my own.
I'm currently married to a non abusive person and I don't feel good enough for her. On the inside I think I'm caregiving, on the outside I'm making her breakfast. She sees this and says, "You don't have to make me breakfast."(said not in a friendly voice, but in a voice that is really bad at accepting things from others) On the outside, I say "I know, I just wanted to" and on the inside I wonder why she is rejecting my love. Is it not good enough? Aren't the eggs perfect? Is the toast not right? Was the timing bad? Should I have fixed pancakes instead? I shouldn't still be in my pajamas. Maybe she just didn't want my company at breakfast. I'll try again, I'll try harder tomorrow morning, I'll dress better, I'll bring an even brighter attitude, I'll cook the perfect thing perfectly. I can get this right, then I'll be good enough and she will accept my love. Wow, abusers would knock each other over to get to me.
If you want there's a video he's done on "letting go of fixing people"
I'm glad you've found yourself a better partner though
It's a form of control. Think of what the real core of your fear is.. afraid they will leave? I had fear of abandonment myself. Can't be sure it really fully goes away, but it gets to be a whisper. Takes practice mentally- argue when those thoughts come up that you can take up space in the world, it's okay. Helped me to think I was speaking to my inner-child.
Also, communicating your feelings to your partner is important so things don't burst out later. Have to find a groove for when those talks are appropriate for both of y'all.
❤️
I think it’s lovely you do that for your partner every morning, and it does show you care! Them saying that isn’t rejecting your love, but rather their way of appreciating you. You didn’t have to, but you did, and that effort is what really counts. And if they love you too, they’ll know that
Consider explaining this to your spouse! Have a meta-conversation about how it makes you feel when they say "you didn't have to do X". Either get confirmation that you can always interpret those statements as praise, or ask them to change how they express that sentiment to something more affirmative like "thanks for cooking, I appreciate you".
Honestly, it's impossible to have respect for someone who degrads themselves just for the mere possibility of pleasing you. It feels like they have no self-respect, and also, like you're not a real person to them, you're just a source of approval, nothing more. And would you ever wait on the edge of your seat to hear what a partner like that has to say? Or would their every waking thought be all about smothering you with "love?" Like they're just an empty void, trying in utter futility to get from you something they should be giving themselves. The whole thing just seems like a profoundly draining hostage situation more than a relationship to me...then again, I'm not pathological, so I wouldn't stick around someone I couldn't respect.
Glad you're back ^^
The problem with most therapies is therapists can only know what they're told, verbally or otherwise, and clients can only say what they know.
As someone who has had to see therapists in the US all their life this x1000%
I think how therapy is taught in the US is of much our problems with mental health
A good therapist will take the client's self-reported information, and apply the narrative to known sociological and psychological human traits. All behavior has meaning. Active listening, combined with skill as an interlocutor, can result in an effective Socratic method of drawing out more information; or, dig into nuances behind a narrative. That's how my therapist has helped me.
I like how TT noticed his client lingering as long as possible and used this to support the hypothesis that the client feared being alone.
@@IheartDogs55 I like the epistomological language you're using. My experience with therapy has been exactly that sort of self analysis and introspection which has brought to light so many of the reasons that I think the way that I do, and how I deal with things, while at the same time telling my therapist the signs of OCD. It should be a back and forth conversation where you're actively working to figure out the situation and help each other understand more about your mental health.
@@etherealstars5766 I'm glad you're getting real help!
I know I should go to bed... but you never skip a TheraminTrees video!
Thank you for saving my life. I couldn't have done it without you.
Thank you for helping me see myself as a valid human being deserving of love. 40 lbs down and still losing and finally in a gym getting healthy. Finally came out to my family and found acceptance where I only expected fear and hate
Good for you! I'm glad you had the strength to do it, and were gifted a positive experience.
Came out as what, if you dont mind the question!
I'm so glad they love you and respect you!
Glad to hear you found acceptance, always better to hear positive stories than horror ones
I ABSOLUTELY love your content. I even share it with my own therapist.
I have had a series of abusive relationships. I haven't figured-out everything, but I find that I am very willing to instantly ditch relationships as soon as they start to "smell' abusive.
thats a very good first step!
Date- Don't Attach To Early
Your videos are always so polished, smooth, and cut right through to the heart of issues before giving supporting evidence. Your work is inspirational and I'm thankful for what you do
15:24
"He saw it as two successful divorces"
That's such a badass thing to say
We missed you, mate! I'm so relieved you're still around and helping us, especially now.
I'm autistic, and this is something that's often done to autistic children, autistic children are often excluded from school and given therapy for being bullied. Rather than holding the bullies accountable for bullying the autistic child, the autistic child is far too often made to take responsibility for bringing the bullying on themselves for being different, and forced to change in order to "stop giving people a reason to bully you".
I've noticed that blaming the victim is an inherent part of western culture. We have some incredible values which we never seem to address, one of them being denial. Denying the actual problem, the victim is the next easiest step to take, it seems. I hope you got some supportive people now.
I saw recently something about autism and how people subconsciously picking up something is off (masking or clumsiness who knows). You cannot stop being autistic so how therapy would help? Unless they would include some kung-fu or rethoric training or something so next time you kick ass of your abuser literally or figuratively 😂
Also then they will call you a bad guy and punish you 😅
@@Catastropheshe as someone who got a high functioning autism diagnosis at the age of 58, learning to know yourself and how your communication deficit work can be tremendously helpful. It takes constant awareness of dealing with other people and it’s difficult as hell but it beats doing nothing.
My yearly TheraminTrees video! Always a pleasure to see you in my sub box
This is my first notification and I subscribed months ago. Not complaining tho, you can’t force out this kind of content
This channel has shown me that, in a lot of ways, Therapy is about building the client to be their own personal therapist. I absolutely love this channel, thank you.
I have to admit my biggest fear for getting a new therapist is this. Them doing more harm to me then good. I already had therapy massively backfire on me.
watching this I couldn't help but think back to my last therapist. I was just getting out from under the thumb of my abusive parents, particularly my mother. she was excessively controlling and when I finally got away I realized that I had done very little of my own accord, and didn't really know how to anymore. I sought therapy to try and rebuild and learn how to actually get myself to do things when I wasn't under the threat of the collapse of my world. the therapist I saw would continue to insist I talk about my family, to the point where it stopped making sense. I came to therapy with a particular goal, and didn't see much help on the issue. whenever I asked why we were continuing to just talk about my family and not the issues I've been having two months in the best reply I could get was that I was some essential distillation of both of my parents, implying that in order to understand myself I needed to understand their psyche in full. this troubled me because i had done a lot to not recreate my parents. the idea that I was doomed to recreate, or propagate their abuses at a different point in my life made me suicidal, and more importantly it was not true.
was it just very common in therapy back in the day to tie all of a patient's behavior to that of the parent's? because it seems like a common theme in a lot of therapy gone wrong.
on a different note, thank you for all your vids TheraminTrees! your content has helped me get out of some rough spots in the past and for that I am forever grateful
My own personal interpretation of “victims of abuse are unconsciously attracted to abusers” was that, when a person whose been abused since childhood seeks adult relationships, they might not recognize signs of abuse that non-victims would spot, such as controlling behavior or invasions of privacy.
Still, I think that ABUSERS are often attracted to those they think can be manipulated, not the other way around. I’m a pretty quiet and polite person, and MANY people have walked up to me who I could tell right away were not well-intentioned, and those same types were put off when I didn’t ignore or condone their toxic behavior. They naturally assumed that I wouldn’t speak up because they thought I was vulnerable and shy when the truth is that I’m very blunt and enjoy open discussion, which abusers usually recoil from. I’m not a victim of abuse, but I’m positive they thought I would be too meek to stand up for myself. I could imagine that, if I was a lot more tolerable of other people walking all over me, or was already predisposed to abuse, I would have let them.
That’s not to call abuse survivors weak or dumb: they are very strong, I just think abuse can heavily warp your perception of yourself and make you less likely to trust your gut instinct and ignore red flags. Gaslighting and shaming makes you second guess yourself, even when you are in the RIGHT.
It’s like if a woman talked about yelling at her boyfriend after the boyfriend called her a slut, and said, “I don’t know, did I go too far?” She’s not dumb, she has simply been conditioned to not trust her own judgement because he’d spent so long degrading and gaslighting her.
Watching this, I realize I've been doing what these therapists have been doing.
It's scary when you realize what you yourself have been doing.
Still you learn and better yourself, and can therefore influence others more positively.
admitting that you've made a mistake is a huge step. good luck on your journey to better self-improvement ✌
You are a genius! You helped me get over a 4 year old long narc relationship. Also I’m one of 12 kids in a Mormon family. Thank you for helping me become my authentic self
I have to say, it’s great to have you back, and the style on this video is absolutely breathtaking! I love the consistent depiction of therapists, patients, and abusers as being on the front, middle, and back of the spinning wheels, it makes for such perfect descriptions and comprehension. Amazing work!
Between the last few years, I've had a lot of questions regarding basically every aspect of my identity- from religion to gender identity.
Your videos' simple presentations and plain statements of fact have done nothing but help.
They've given me questions I've needed to ask myself, posed truths I needed to face, and asked me to think.
While this video isn't applicable to me, I'm glad to watch it. It's insightful as always, and I'm glad to see you're still making great videos.
Thank you, TheraminTrees- you're doing a lot more good in the world than you could ever know.
Because of my schizophrenia, I've been attracting abusive people because even when I'm not psychotic, I have little confidence in my own worldview. This is perfect for narcissists seeking to confirm their own self-crafted dogma and warped worldview.
TheramineTrees was there for some of the darkest and saddest moments in my life, filling me with hope and opening my eyes to things you don't see. Thank you
I'm a 25 year old ex-jw from 🇹🇹, glad you're back, your information was important during my deprogramming. ❤️❤️❤️
A 21 year old ex-JW here. Barely finding this information myself ^^
Thank you for this. It’s very timely for me. Unfortunately, this type of abuse from therapists is not yet uncommon. I had three therapists last year who behaved like those in this video. I don’t know how to identify bad therapists quickly. At a minimum, it takes me six weeks. By then, hundreds of dollars are wasted and many hours of my time have been lost. In addition, there’s a heavy emotional toll as my investment in the therapy is wasted and I once again have to face feelings of being cheated.
I neither have the finances nor the emotional endurance to keep doing the trial and error method of finding a good therapist. At this point, I plan to become my own therapist. I figure I can read any book the “professionals” read. Plus, I have three things going for me no therapist I’ve ever met has had: 1) I want me to get better. 2) I’m willing to take action to make me better. 3) I know everything that’s ever happened to me.
Good luck! This is also the route I have taken and I have never regretted it. While it may seem slightly off tangent, but I can recommend "Non-violent communication": it forces you to take another good look at yourself and discover and voice your needs, and how and when they were violated.
@@bootedbuilds Very relate reply but I second this! It's really tough as a people pleaser and it is kind of neccessary to do some pre work for people that are highly traumatized and not in touch with their feelings. But even then, great food for thought and a much needed mindset shift.
The best therapist I had was my GP who'd gone through his own abuses. I had a psychologist who was following a textbook. Then I had a second psychologist who treated every session like the very first time we'd met. I also became my own therapist but having friends who I trust and who can talk about abuse has been critical for me. I hope you've found a way forward. TheraminTrees and some of Richard Grannon's vids have been really helpful for me.
I now have a 7 year old in my mind who I'm taking care of.
There should be a refund policy ☹️ might be just 50% but if someone is not happy from therapy it's the therapist issue 😐 maybe then they would try harder 😅
TheraminTrees is doing something important: restoring the confidence of people who felt like therapy did a whole lot of nothing.
I needed to hear this. Thinking that I was doing something unconsciously to place myself in abusive and unfulfilling relationships is something I've been told by therapists and privately assumed about myself my entire adult life. It's fueled my constant self-doubt and feelings of helplessness to escape a nature that supposedly ran contrary to my own but could never be controled or defeated. It's a bad idea that I've let limit and define me for far too long.
Thank you TT.
One of the most intelligent and well spoken creators on this platform returning really is heartwarming. Glad you’re back T and keep at it.
Because of what I had always been told I thought that a part of me liked being abused. Thank you for correcting this for me. Fortunately, my life is improving thanks to a good therapist & a very kind & supportive boyfriend
I have looked for someone to talk to but, where I live in the southern US, therapist and clinics proudly advertise their "spiritual" approach to treatment or how they use religion as a basis for their therapy. I can't really research to see if there are any clinics that are non-religious for fear of being labeled as an "evil' person that can't be helped until they accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. 🙄
You could look for online therapist not in the South or even try Atheist therapists if you want to. The Secular Therapy Project.
Theres online therapies now just saying
I really needed to hear this, tbh. Just a little while ago I was going thru cutting ties with both an abusive friend and an abusive partner. I was starting to finally recognize toxic peoples behavioral patterns and I called both of them out on it and they got super angry at me. It's not that we draw abusers to us, it's that they see someone they assume has zero boundaries or self respect and put all their emotional baggage onto that person. I managed to finally start seeing the patterns and having self respect and lured both of them into a nice little trap.
Wolves behind mirrors, yup. The Behavior Panel has said to look for a wolf in Your clothing, not a wolf in sheep's clothing. Also, if you feel great around the person and just after being with them wonder why and feel so lousy, it is a big red flag.
Thanks again Theramin!
Yay!! TheraminTrees is back!! 🙌🏽 Looking forward to this video 😁
Therapist here. It is true that vulnerability plays the most essential role in explaining why people keep falling into abusive relationships. But honestly, there are some clients who do indeed feel attracted to people who end up being abusive. Therefore good therapists shouldn't use theories indiscriminately, but try to discover for each client his or her (conscious and nonconscious) patterns, feelings and motivations. I have had clients who have a date with a nice guy or girl, who they find physically attractive and nice, but then somehow they feel more attracted to the other guy or girl who they know will not treat them the right way. They literally say it themselves: "I know I should pick the healthy partner. But he/she is somehow boring, so I keep falling for the people who treat me the familiar way." And there are people as well who fall for the wrong kind of people because they feel they don't deserve anything better. You could say that unconscious guilt or shame plays a role here. But again: good therapists are not authorities who tell clients what is going on in their minds. Rather, they don't make any assumptions and work together with the client to figure out whats going on. I don't force a truth onto my clients, I help them discover it for themselves. So it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sometimes these interpretations are true. People have unconscious emotions and motives all the time. That's why we can gain insight into ourselves; because we usually don't pay much attention to our thoughts and feelings as we go through our daily lives.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply to the video.
I mostly agree with your statement, although I'd suggest to take anyones descriptions of other people's behavior as their perception and processing of actual events, and to differentiate this from a factual description of (the) actual events.
Nobody is able to perfectly do the latter, and frequently people remember their evaluation of an event better than actual observations.
Telling the own story can have a manipulative effect, even if it's not meant to manipulate anybody.
It's certainly good to try keeping/getting clients out of abusive relationships, but I think putting the label "abusive" on a (personally) never seen person might very well be unjust or even unjustified.
In general, putting such broad labels like "abuser" on anybody is mostly encouraging oversimplified thinking. And it's apparently common to get very similar problems with other people, so labelling people instead of actions is not even a pragmatic simplification.
TheramimTrees adresses it very good at
7:30 that individual cases might actually be well described by "being drawn to".
And that the important point is not to assume this (I add: or anything else) in the absence of evidence which clearly points to a specific explanation.
That's true, I had sort of a relationship with a girl that really never had too much interest on me. But when I got a chance to improve with a better girl, I for some reason had the abuse girl on the back of my head, always comparing them. It's fucked up. Makes life pretty difficult to improve.
Currently in the same situation bro
@@JEMA333 sometimes it's so difficult to accept that there are better ways to live, to think, better company, but I always find some bliss in the thought of getting to know new people, and re-living the process of knowing someone new. But now with the knowledge from those last experiences.
Resuming... Some time staring at the mirror, maybe listening to Walk... There's better somewhere, waiting for someone better...
Please. Please. Please. Please. DON'T STOP MAKING VIDEOS. I recommend your channel to struggling friends and it has really changed lives. Please keep going 🙏🙏❤❤❤
Thank you. I'm glad the videos have been of help!
I just want to say thank you for these videos. You explain these concepts in such a compassionate, clear, and accessible way. Your videos not only help me to better understand concepts that I have somewhat of a grip on, giving me words with which to describe experiences I've had, they often encourage me to see things from a new perspective. These are such an amazing resource. From the bottom of my heart, thank you
Plz I need to know more about this specific concept, "you unconsciously seek out abusive people that remind you of your previous abuse" is something I've been told and have fundamentally believed up to this exact point, watching this video. This video simultaneously makes perfect sense, but is incredibly difficult to wrap my head around as I can feel my, like, core belief shattering inside me. Amazing job, this is a great video, I just want more- more information, more examples, more something, etc. If Thumin or anyone reading this has more resources about this topic I would love to have them. Regardless, amazing, wonderful job, I'm gonna have something to really think about and digest for the next little while at least, which doesn't happen too often, so love that for me. Again, bang up job, this is a really good video, a billion thumbs up 👍👍👍
I agree, this is a complex concept. At 6:33 the comparison between abusers and scammers helped me understand. It's not that the victim has zero role in their own abuse, but an adjustment of how we think of their role. It's not that the victim seeks the abusers, but that the abusers target weaknesses and vulnerabilities in the victim (e.g. in relation to 'get rich quick schemes' there's an old saying, "you can't scam an honest man"). People with healthy boundaries and self-respect will naturally reject abuse, so abusers naturally focus on those without. Where it's unhelpful to tell someone they subconsciously desire abuse (how are they supposed to stop?), it's helpful to point out what makes a victim exploitable so that they can become less of a target.
@@FionavanDahl Thank you so much for the reply, that actually really helps a lot! Thank you again!
"Two successful divorces" Adam clapping back!
😂😂😂😂
Will you ever do an episode about self-segregation and/or the "siege mentality" one day? I don't know, they seems like good subjects for your channel in my eye. I had a friend who suffered because of that, he was of african-descent and his family and surroundings openly harrassed him based on his homosexuality saying to him that it was, as he said to me in his very own words, a "white problem" and that homosexuality couldn't possibly happen to him or that it was some sort of "treason" toward his "community", that he must conform to a traditionnal "identity" or else bad things will happen to all of "them" putting in danger "their" survival and the existence of "their people" by distancing himself from the flock (siege mentality). As a result of hanging only with friends from "the majority" (since these individuals were at the time the only ones in his surroundings that openly accepted his homosexuality), people in his ghetto insulted him and called him names like "oreo" or "fag". That's horrible! I felt so sorry for him having to live this, I wish I could have done something to help him, he didn't deserve this.
A while ago I came across a TED talk with a man talking about his gay son. I don’t remember the name of the man giving the speech. In the speech he gave the hypothesis that societies that accept people who are homosexual since they’re able to help the society out with extra resources and will usually be able to devote more time to helping out the community since they usually aren’t raising their own children.
That is basically someone having an unhealthy fear of death but a community. Not every community can live forever, so forcing it just causes you to act crazy.
@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana ?
@@Game_Hero People need to stop trying to protect their race at all costs. Races inevitably die out as others grow, assimilation into others, or by pure bad luck. If a race tries to protect itself to the exclusion of anything else it leads to just as bad results if a human tries to extend their life without regard to anything else, including their own happiness only on a bigger scale.
@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana Thank you for reminding me why racialism and racialist pseudo-identities disgust me. We're human beings, not dogs. My friend was a victim of this stupid obsession about "race", whatever that is.
I just want to share that for me, understanding my subconscious compilations was helpful to me. When I heard about freuds concept of ‘trauma repetition’ it made a lot of sense to me. I was sexually abused as a child. As an adult I put myself insitiations where I would be sexually abused, including prostitution. The reason I forced myself though prostitution, was because I was trying to prove to myself that I was strong enough not to be bothered by sexually invasive or humiliating circumstances. I wanted to see myself as a tough guy, o wanted to show myself I was stronger than I was a child, and that none of it would destroy me like it did back then. I was literally trying to replay the abuse in order to try to master the abusive interactions. To prove I’m stronger. To make myself stronger. Of course, it didn’t work. It was a dysfunctional attempt at coping. Of course I didn’t REALLY ‘want’ abuse. Maybe that’s your point that deep down I was looking for something else. And that’s true. But it cannot be denied that I subconsciously chose and sought scenarios where I would be abused. That is subconscious seeking abuse. I’m sorry this lens of psychoanalysis has been misused upon you , but that dosent mean it’s untrue all the time in my opinion
I am an absolute fan of psychoanalysis, but ngl this sounds like the kind of stuff conventional psychology also talks about (although I don't know, maybe I'm wrong)
Wouldn't TheraminTree's answer simply be "well see, that's conscious abuse-seeking!"
I'm glad there's someone who pointed this out. I think there is a difference between the trauma repetition theramintree's talking about, and the actual dissociative disorders related to interpersonal trauma, that does develop into conscious and unconscious repetition of traumatic events for dissociated parts. In the heavy cases, there literally IS an extra voice talking to you, with its own desires and wants, that might be stuck in the past. That's not psychoanalytic nonsense, but actual neuroscientific research topics that can be pointed out in brain scans and various tests. I guess what Theramin tries is to critisise is the adaption of such theories on people who it does not apply to, or in a way that is totally not helpful, but very much victim blaming.
@@Remke946 I've been looking for this comment. I am a bit confused, because while it's very important to be skeptical of claims of unconscious motivations and flaws, it seems too far of a stretch to outright deny the existance of certain unconscious biases or desires and any automatic response that could sometimes push us towards self-destructive patterns of behaviour. Surely that can still exist in some cases, right?
@@tablat1651 Imho It's very different to claim that victims repeat patterns vs. victims who seek out a traumatic scenario because they want to experience a new gained sense of control (very understandable but might have not the outcome one was looking for). Someone who gets into an abusive relationship has probably never thought "well this is great, I can finally prove that I can handle it". But therapists don't really differentiate and that's harmful.
I think, to a certain extent, part of the problem is that people (i.e., therapists, psychologists, and scientists) want there to be a single unitary theory of how people work (e.g., psychoanalysis over personal construct theory best explains how all people work). In reality, different theories best explain different groups of people best. For example, while there are PLENTY of problems with Freud and psychoanalysis, many of Freud's clients were individuals who were sexually abused (often times incestuously by their parents); consequently, psychoanalysis tends to vibe really well with individuals who survived childhood sexual and relational abuse (because it is calibrated on and best explains that group of people).
Babe wake up, a new TheraminTrees video just dropped
'Breaking abusive patterns often involves becoming aware of things we're doing automatically, without reflection.'
As a layman, I wonder if that "subconscious attraction" could at times really be an attraction to the familiar coupled with one or a mix of either a sense of self worth that leaves them feeling undeserving of anything better, that they lack the tools and knowledge to find better, or they want to stay in their comfort zone. If all you've known are beds of spikes and you think that's all you deserve and they're the only beds you've ever known, discovering a "normal" bed could be frightening to think to use.
Another comment, though, about the opposite being true of abusers being the ones that are attracted their victims and not victims attracted to abusers is a pretty profound way of viewing it. After all, what attracts a wolf to a sheep or a cat to a mouse if not what their target can give them at their target's expense?
It reminds me of something they teach in medical school - a friend told me that they essentially tell you 'when you're looking at a horse, it's probably not a zebra'. The idea being that it's far more likely to be something more mundane and normal than a wild exotic issue.
Not me tearing up over a seahorse with kung-fu
This was very cathartic to listen to. It feels almost impossible to heal from trauma when your surroundings don't acknowledge the real issue of vulnerability.
Man.
That Muna session actually made me cry. Triumph like that really, really hits me.
I really, really hope that they're still doing well, now.
Ll
It still sounds like they all had unconscious forces at work (cravings for positive attention, fear of abandonment, sunk cost investment, an involuntary freeze response) the problem was that the therapists thought that their job was to form a list of problems, decide which one the client had and make them agree with it regardless of how it matched their own observations. You can see a similar pattern with bad business analysts who think their job is to tell the client what system they need instead of humbly asking the right questions to discover what is important to the business.
I suspect that a good therapist, like a good BA, approaches their work with the assumption that they don't know much at all about their client's problems and that the right approach is to start with seemingly basic and obvious questions and no preconceptions about what the answers should be.
Without a doubt, these videos have been the biggest influence on my adult emotional development. Just incredibly valuable content, I come back and binge the entire channel every so often
Same man I find myself comping back ever 7moths or so
I love how you put the errant therapists in an ivory tower. Excellent!
Watching your videos is always a treat - and over the years, I love to go back to your Instruction Manual for Life - I always tear up with that one.
seeing failed relationships as successful breakups from harmful people
being okay with your own company
leaving something you've invested in cuz it won't be what you thought it was
being assertive
A theramin trees video is always a treat! Thank you good sir for your hard work
Thank you so much for uploading. You've genuinely helped me so much with my life. Just laying things out in such a beautifully explained way and so many logical situations that everyone has seen in their own lives.
So glad you're back. You make far more sense than any therapist I've been to. Abusive parents, abusive cult, abusive friends and relationships. Hard to know why. I came to the conclusion that it's all a result of being trusting and wanting to be loved but failing miserably at judging character. Thank you for your work.
I'm Catholic and a firm believer in my faith but I still greatly appreciate the lessons in this video. My dad was abusive and controlling, twisting the faith to justify what he did. Even though my family members try to avoid people like him, we keep failing. For the longest time, everyone said it was because we were "attracted to what we were accustomed to / comfortable with." I hope one day we can truly identify the vulnerabilities that attract abusive people to us, but this video is a good start.
So glad to hear your voice again, welcome back.
These sound to me like "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" scenarios. It may not be an active effort not to, conscious or not, but like you said, what they actually need to learn isn't being addressed. If something breaks but isn't properly fixed, it's bound to break again, sometimes with worse outcomes.
I'm studying for my PhD in Counselling Psychology, and I find your videos very helpful and grounding as I study, so thank you. It is so sad to me that it is still taught that people get abused because they "secretly want it"
HELL YES I love the thinking of “two successful divorces” - really gives me some hope I didn’t realize I wanted
Every time a new TheraminTrees video comes out, it's Christmas for me and I MUST open the gift! Thank you!!!!!
I’ve never experienced anything traumatic.
it sounds weird to say, but it makes things harder to explain, sometimes. I knew something was wrong with me because my hands would shake and I would breath all weirdly (sometimes not at all) and no one else would react the way i did.
I didn’t have a lot of knowledge about mental health, but my school offered me counselling sessions after a big break down i had (which i now realise was a panic attack). I met them, they seemed nice, i trusted them.
they asked me if i had a previous diagnosis, and i answered honestly, saying that i was diagnosed with autism when i was three. She said that i didn’t act like a lot of people that had it and that she was surprised.
at first i felt okay with going to see her once a week, but as time went on all she would ever talk about was how i wasn’t ‘accepting’ my diagnosis, how all of these thoughts and feelings came from being in denial, and that if i just accepted it they wouldn’t happen. and i tried, i really tried, but no matter what i did i just couldn’t “accept” it like she wanted me to.
i started feeling dread when i had to go see her, and then i always felt really tired afterwards. my friends and family told me that that’s normal, that i’m just tired from having to think about my emotions. if i felt like skipping it would make me feel guilty, as if i’d be confirming that i’m just in denial- proving her right by avoiding her. i felt stuck.
i don’t know why, but i just knew something wasn’t right. i couldn’t explain it, but it was like a little voice in my mind going “well that’s not right at all- she’s telling me how i feel and i don’t think i’m like that at all”.
sometimes it made me angry, all the people that i’d ever heard about that had the same problems as me (usually from the news or a movie) developed them from something traumatic or abusive or bad. nothing like that ever happened to me- i have good friends and a good family, so why was this happening to me? why did i have to deal with all of this?
it wasn’t until i stepped back that i realised how wrong she was about me. i wasn’t “denying” anything! and there are online forums with people on the spectrum- one of the main complaints is that people always say “well you don’t look autistic!” and that similar to what she said to me.
i did feel guilty about not going for a while, it felt like i was taking several steps back and no steps forward. now i know that i feel a lot more comfortable then i was.
i felt a little less crazy, and a bit more sane. the world felt real again- if that makes sense.
i’m still not the most knowledgeable when it comes to stuff about mental health, and sometimes it’s hard to watch videos like these with myself in mind (“they’re made for people who have actual problems- not you!” i sometimes think). but i am learning ways to work around what i need (not working on changing my brain- i think that’s impossible, really).
i really enjoy your videos, they’re informative and easily understandable. you have a nice voice and it always seems like you’re confidant in what you’re saying.
i’m not sure if you do this on purpose, but because i have something called sensory issues i find it hard to look at bright colours or harsh visuals, your videos have dimmer or pastel colours and you never shout like most youtubers do. it makes it easier to listen to you and take in what you say. so, thank you so much!!!
Welcome back you glorious s.o.b., we missed ya (manly hug ensues).
"it was like having her father back" hit really hard. wow. rough.
"a seahorse who learned kung fu" is a sick fucking line, it's so badass
As a therapist, I think this is a good video.
I think there is some nuance that needs to be added, to where the notion of detective work between the therapist and the client is apt, but that the unconscious lead is just a hypothesis. The issues with each of the case studies presented isn't that the therapist mentioned or asserted an unconscious preference, or an unconscious motivation, but that when their 'partner' (the client) said the idea was unfounded, or pointed out issues with the hypothesis, the therapist just ignored it.
If someone shows up and says, "I'm almost in toxic relationships, my mom and dad were in one, and I'm always in one too!" and the therapists says, "Maybe there is an unconscious bias toward re-creating that familiar family system",--- that doesn't mean the therapist doesn't know what they're talking about and you should go find a new therapist.
If the same scenario happens and the client says, "No, I hated my family, I don't think that's the case." The therapist *SHOULD* explore a bit about the family, and then gather more information to create a different conceptualization. It isn't that the hypothesis was bad, it's that the ones in this video just ignored their client and insisted on the unconscious explanation.
It's the insistence of the unfounded subconscious claim that makes it terrible. Not the notion itself.
It seems the video tries to nod to this slightly.... but the take away message is clearly, "If your therapist suggests you want something unconsciously, that therapist isn't good"... that I think can be harmful. "If your therapist ignores you wishes and ignores the evidence of your own experiences to peddle their own presuppositional biases, then that therapist isn't good" -- might be more apt in regard to subconscious assessments of abusers, or otherwise.
Great stuff as always TheraminTrees. Love the content.
From what I can tell, when abuse victims "seek out" abusers, that's a case of them consciously seeking out people who have traits similar to the people they know - if the people they know happened to be abusers and warped their sense of what a real connection is supposed to be (i.e. the person learned to only trust forms of love where they had to work hard to "win over" the partner because other forms didn't feel "real"). Or if they were seeking out forms of love that tend to be associated with love bombing - which is a thing done mostly by abusers and then it isn't, it's done by traumatized people who don't feel worthy of the person they seek out as a lover (the latter type of love bombing being the kind Disney's Aladdin does because he feels he is hardly worthy of Jasmine otherwise even though to an adult viewer and even some kid viewers it's quite clear he won Jasmine over almost immediately).
And that means that if someone seeks out things that usually amount to love bombing, while there is a chance the person won't be an abuser, most love bombers will be abusive, and the love bomber who isn't abusive will likely have issues of their own stemming from childhood trauma (which isn't the person's fault, but trauma can affect relationships so you probably don't want to go into that with your eyes closed). And the love bomber who is not abusive and not showing trauma might very well be a con artist instead.
I always assumed that the reason why abuse victims “seek” abusers is simply because the abuse is familiar and abuse victims may not recognize what a healthy relationship is. Alternatively, abuse victims may lose trust in anyone entirely and avoid relationships at all costs to avoid any further abuse (still don’t know how to recognize a healthy relationship). Is there still some nuance to this? Or am I just like the bogus therapists? 😅
There is nuance to basically everything, the issue is learning when it is a blanket statement and an actual statement.
You listed an possible reason which is absolutely valid some of the time but not ALL of the time.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Agreed.
I remember having a few sessions with a psycologist who insisted I'd grown up in an abusive family, even though I KNEW and told him what the initial cause of my troubles were (something that happened in school). It was ridiculous and I never came back.
I think the main reason that experience was so frustrating was that I wasn't expecting not to be heard by a psycologist, someone I was paying to listen. The moment he took over the conversation, I no longer felt safe sharing my inner thoughts with him, making the sessions worthless.
Today is a good day when theramintrees posts a video ❤
I’ve never clicked a notification so fast
"A sea horse who learned Kung Fu" is such a beautiful story of strength. Thank you for sharing these stories.
I'm not sure why, but I cried a little at "No, I'm still a seahorse. But I'm a seahorse that's learned kung-fu"
I'm so glad to see an upload from you!
Thanks again for helping wake me up from the Jehovah's Witnesses cult a few years back.
Much love,
Jacob :)
The highlight of the year, another gem from TT. Thank you so much for this incredible content.
That Finn analogy was spot on for me. I started a research project some time ago but hit roadblock after roadblock. I invested so much time and effort - essentially working for free - that I kept pouring in more effort in the hopes of finally making progress. After spending three years on this project and being back at square one (again), I finally noticed that I was trapped in a cycle of getting positive reactions from my peers/professors but negative reactions whenever I was applying for a research grant. This should be a hint that my project was too niche to be persuasive for the general public. So I could either accept that this project is not going anywhere or continue working on this vicious cycle.
It definitely hurts to see a project unresolved but I'm not pouring more of my life into this. Though I'm finally free, I have to say that freedom has a bitter taste to it sometimes.
I'm a therapist. And often struggled with offering answers to why patients went into abusive relationships over and over. I understood it, but it was hard to explain.
Then my supervisor told me something incredibly wise and simple: The mind does what the mind knows, simply because it is the path of least resistance, in the same way bad habits die hard. People aren't attracted to bad relationships, they don't want them, it's just that once they slide into them due to the manipulation of abusers, they tend to very easily adapt to them and "fit", simply because it is the path of least resistance. Until they get good at not being comfortable in even slight abusive situations.