Totally convinced this is why I have panic attacks. I grew up with constant shame, blame and guilt. Not allowed to show any tiny negative emotions. Not allowed to be happy enough to make mother jealous. And definitely with no control over anything that happened to me. This is definitely what I need to work on now. At age 67 I am finally ready (though scared) to start saying No to my mother. She expects me to wait on her hand and foot, but it's not going to happen any more. Bless you Darren, you've hit on the perfect lesson that I need, yet again. Thank you ❤
in midst of abuse, i learned that being in crisis led to a temporary stop to the abuse and occasionally received kindness so I picked up learned helplessness. something that has been a process to unpack and unlearn but getting there! 👏💙
In therapy, I struggled with seeing/admitting learned helplessness until I realized I was objecting to the 'weak' characterization I felt the term 'helpless' implied. Helpless, to my deepest self, means the skills, knowledge, and physical ability to change things are just absent, as they actually were when I was a child. I felt like using that term on adults implied some kind of laziness or opposition to us fully embracing the autonomy we now have. In short, it felt kind of victim-blaming. I know that's not true, that's just how it felt, and I'm hypersensitive to literally anything that might suggest my cptsd is a choice on my part. It's yet another example of how internalized negative messages pop up to interfere in healing and growth. So I decided to personally relabel this term as "the holographic electrified cage" and "entrained hesitation".That makes me feel that although I know am fully capable of changing my situation, it's hard to tell if the cage is actually still as real and dangerous as it once was (it certainly looks real) and whether there's still a shock coming (it seems highly likely) until one reaches out and touches the bars. Not wanting to touch the bars and find out is an appropriate response when everything looks so real and the shocks used to be so bad, and if I hadn't been purposefully conditioned to stay in the cage by someone else, I wouldn't have developed that response. Reframing it like this helps me work with it because it engages a sense of defying the narcissist in a way I couldn't before. It feels empowering. It's like I look at him (my father) and say, I'm gonna keep touching the bars. I'm gonna risk that shock. Because the jig is up, I know the bars are just holograms, and the little cub in the cage has grown into a full-sized, pissed off, hungry tigress. 😈 Sorry for the long post but I wanted to put it out there that if you're struggling with this concept, maybe change the wording. Whatever shows it to you at the right angle for your adaptive system to get a hook into. 🙏 many blessings ❤
Thank you so much for this. 🙏 This is the most helpful thing I’ve heard regarding this problem, how it developed for me, and how I can reframe. One part for me is I have REFUSED to be called a victim and therefore I never could admit that I was abused in nearly every way. Even though it happened daily from both my dad and my mom. I took all the blame that I must’ve built “the cage” myself due to my inferior choices in coping mechanisms. This new perspective helps me see that I never would have had to create these maladaptive traits in the first place if they hadn’t created the cage. It’s the first time I can feel sorry for my little child self.
Wow! you shared the whole therapy field's secret in simple videos! Good for you sir! and yes please put more video about "combating Learned helplessness!"
I can strongly relate to this. I was “rescued” from parents home by my ( now ) husband and he has rescued me from many situations over the last 40 years where I’ve thought I couldn’t cope otherwise. I can see it has been a pattern, something I’d like to learn more about for sure. Thank you.
some of the things i'm learning for the past few years is simply amazing. Learned helplessness is one such thing and i have realized some people understand this psychological concept very early in life and either end up helping or subjugating or controlling others.
Years ago back in 2010 I read an Article about learned helplesness and the dogs, I must admit I cryed my eyes out. I knew exactly how those dogs felt. The reason this was discovered was the second pack of dogs didn`t jump when the electricity was turned on, they just layed down. They discovered that the dogs had been used in another experiment with electricity with no rewards for jumping.
I struggle with my upbringing Narcissist family...and I have a suggestion for a future video! I love the title of this one, só I thought you could do another one with the title " the pain of coming from a Narcissist family. And it's impact on mental health..." Thank you
My children environment was act my greatest motivation for change. I was like, "Man, got to get out of here!" I did: military, college, relocated, and a better life. The latter part of my life is truly better than the former.
Thank you Darren. I appreciate your videos about toxic behavior patterns and how to recognize them; these are important. Even more I appreciate your videos that help us learn about ourselves, make sense of what happened to us, and regain our own power. I'd also like to learn more about combating learned helplessness.
I grew up in dysfungtional family. Have a Npd parents who destructive when i said "No" For a reason. Until i was 30, i didn't know who am i, what i want, what should i do. Then i depressed when got all my questions. Why i didn't have a parents like another people, why i didn't have anything like money, skills, knowledge about something, why i can't moving, why people judge me about something i can't realized, why i can't speak up when i get hurt, why i didn't have someone who stand beside me like a mother.
Thanks! I think there are definitely times in my life where I have found myself in this frame of mind... Thankfully, I _think_ that's truly past tense. 🙂
*Success is a vitamin.* Between my narcissist mother's sabotage and the endless failures of late-diagnosed ADHD, my life has been chock-full of opportunities to learn helplessness. When I first heard about the concept, it reduced my shame and gave me an important key: I can *intentionally* give myself opportunities to learn success and self-efficacy instead. Huzzah!
In short, I have seen it in the lives of many. My youngest half-sister will be 50 in January and likely still has not moved out of her parents' house. Strangely, her only child, a son, has his own place with his family.
It is a fine line to walk when it comes to someone who has fallen a few times. My wife has and thankfully with no serious injury. I have consequently been very/over protective. I am torn between letting her walk alone in the house(she wants to do this)and escorting her everywhere.
My daughter has not been coddled but she has made choices since graduating from high school that has put her in the hole she is experiencing now. In the last 8 years we constantly suggested certain things to help herself but she always knew best. So we were forced to follow the counselors suggestions. We did. We had to ask her to leave with her child. We had to get the police involved. (The 4 year old lives with other grandmother). Both parents don’t work. Now we do not give any money. There were lots of reasons we had to do this. We have made sure a few times given food. We did not see this coming even though it happened in a span of 8 years. The counselor says we were not bad parents. She said there are patterns of not finishing anything, disrespect, addiction,and it beginning to affect my husband and I. There were other things she began to do that we could not tolerate. One thing I noticed even as a child she has never said “I’m sorry “ when she was in the wrong. We live in a rural area. We had to follow Scared Straight tactics. Our family/friends were almost appalled. It has been about 7 weeks. So far she has not taken any steps to help herself. As a parent you reach a point you have done all you can do. We do not really know her issues. I do think she shows signs of being narcissistic ways and then after listening to you today I think she has the issue of not wanting to take steps to help herself. We will continue to get counseling. 🙁❤️🙏❤️🇺🇸❤️
Thank you for the final insight. Because the syndrome is quite dangerous for the well being of people. I think also that most poor people have it and that's why they are prown to failure.
Other words for learned helplessness: Attachment Disturbances. Solution: Attachment Re-Mapping aka Attachment Repair Psychotherapy, e.g., The Three Pillars Method by Drs. Daniel P. Brown and David S. Elliott, introduced in 'Attachment Disturbances in Adults - Treatment for comprehensive Repair', 2016.
Every thing about that idea is frightening. abusive and cruel. I am not in boot camp.Nor have I signed up for anything like that. At least in boot came there is : a known being and end a contract daily instructions a bed to sleep in roof over your head plus you can always Opt out :
Not if you live in a country where military service is compulsory. In these countries men "learn" helplessness and stoicism early in their life unless they are rich and/or connected.
That lesson does not apply to people with a neurological different brain. Like if you would force and expect a paraplegic to run a marathon the same as everyone else. Like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
Transcript from video: darrenfmagee.substack.com/p/learned-helplessness
Totally convinced this is why I have panic attacks. I grew up with constant shame, blame and guilt. Not allowed to show any tiny negative emotions. Not allowed to be happy enough to make mother jealous. And definitely with no control over anything that happened to me. This is definitely what I need to work on now. At age 67 I am finally ready (though scared) to start saying No to my mother. She expects me to wait on her hand and foot, but it's not going to happen any more. Bless you Darren, you've hit on the perfect lesson that I need, yet again. Thank you ❤
My mother had that effect on my two siblings. She always came to the rescue. Consequently, their lives are basically a mess today.
in midst of abuse, i learned that being in crisis led to a temporary stop to the abuse and occasionally received kindness so I picked up learned helplessness. something that has been a process to unpack and unlearn but getting there! 👏💙
Thank you Darren 🙏
In therapy, I struggled with seeing/admitting learned helplessness until I realized I was objecting to the 'weak' characterization I felt the term 'helpless' implied. Helpless, to my deepest self, means the skills, knowledge, and physical ability to change things are just absent, as they actually were when I was a child. I felt like using that term on adults implied some kind of laziness or opposition to us fully embracing the autonomy we now have. In short, it felt kind of victim-blaming. I know that's not true, that's just how it felt, and I'm hypersensitive to literally anything that might suggest my cptsd is a choice on my part. It's yet another example of how internalized negative messages pop up to interfere in healing and growth. So I decided to personally relabel this term as "the holographic electrified cage" and "entrained hesitation".That makes me feel that although I know am fully capable of changing my situation, it's hard to tell if the cage is actually still as real and dangerous as it once was (it certainly looks real) and whether there's still a shock coming (it seems highly likely) until one reaches out and touches the bars. Not wanting to touch the bars and find out is an appropriate response when everything looks so real and the shocks used to be so bad, and if I hadn't been purposefully conditioned to stay in the cage by someone else, I wouldn't have developed that response. Reframing it like this helps me work with it because it engages a sense of defying the narcissist in a way I couldn't before. It feels empowering. It's like I look at him (my father) and say, I'm gonna keep touching the bars. I'm gonna risk that shock. Because the jig is up, I know the bars are just holograms, and the little cub in the cage has grown into a full-sized, pissed off, hungry tigress. 😈 Sorry for the long post but I wanted to put it out there that if you're struggling with this concept, maybe change the wording. Whatever shows it to you at the right angle for your adaptive system to get a hook into. 🙏 many blessings ❤
"the holographic electrified cage" Love this! ❤
Thankyou for the re-naming idea! I love ‘entrained hesitation’.
Thank you so much for this. 🙏 This is the most helpful thing I’ve heard regarding this problem, how it developed for me, and how I can reframe. One part for me is I have REFUSED to be called a victim and therefore I never could admit that I was abused in nearly every way. Even though it happened daily from both my dad and my mom. I took all the blame that I must’ve built “the cage” myself due to my inferior choices in coping mechanisms. This new perspective helps me see that I never would have had to create these maladaptive traits in the first place if they hadn’t created the cage. It’s the first time I can feel sorry for my little child self.
Wow! you shared the whole therapy field's secret in simple videos! Good for you sir! and yes please put more video about "combating Learned helplessness!"
"please put more video about "combating Learned helplessness!"" -- THIS PART, PLEASE
I can strongly relate to this. I was “rescued” from parents home by my ( now ) husband and he has rescued me from many situations over the last 40 years where I’ve thought I couldn’t cope otherwise. I can see it has been a pattern, something I’d like to learn more about for sure. Thank you.
some of the things i'm learning for the past few years is simply amazing. Learned helplessness is one such thing and i have realized some people understand this psychological concept very early in life and either end up helping or subjugating or controlling others.
Years ago back in 2010 I read an Article about learned helplesness and the dogs, I must admit I cryed my eyes out. I knew exactly how those dogs felt. The reason this was discovered was the second pack of dogs didn`t jump when the electricity was turned on, they just layed down. They discovered that the dogs had been used in another experiment with electricity with no rewards for jumping.
I struggle with my upbringing Narcissist family...and I have a suggestion for a future video! I love the title of this one, só I thought you could do another one with the title " the pain of coming from a Narcissist family. And it's impact on mental health..."
Thank you
Thank you for this video! Would like very much to hear about Learned Optimism.
Could fearful avoidance fit into learned helplessness?
Yes, I'd also be interested to know if there is a connection.
My children environment was act my greatest motivation for change. I was like, "Man, got to get out of here!" I did: military, college, relocated, and a better life. The latter part of my life is truly better than the former.
Thank you Darren. I appreciate your videos about toxic behavior patterns and how to recognize them; these are important. Even more I appreciate your videos that help us learn about ourselves, make sense of what happened to us, and regain our own power. I'd also like to learn more about combating learned helplessness.
I grew up in dysfungtional family. Have a Npd parents who destructive when i said "No" For a reason.
Until i was 30, i didn't know who am i, what i want, what should i do. Then i depressed when got all my questions. Why i didn't have a parents like another people, why i didn't have anything like money, skills, knowledge about something, why i can't moving, why people judge me about something i can't realized, why i can't speak up when i get hurt, why i didn't have someone who stand beside me like a mother.
Hello thank you for this video. Could you please make a follow up video on how to learn a sense of control in order to heal this?
Thanks! I think there are definitely times in my life where I have found myself in this frame of mind... Thankfully, I _think_ that's truly past tense. 🙂
*Success is a vitamin.* Between my narcissist mother's sabotage and the endless failures of late-diagnosed ADHD, my life has been chock-full of opportunities to learn helplessness. When I first heard about the concept, it reduced my shame and gave me an important key: I can *intentionally* give myself opportunities to learn success and self-efficacy instead. Huzzah!
I appreciated the last bit, especially the cheeky smirk.
In short, I have seen it in the lives of many. My youngest half-sister will be 50 in January and likely still has not moved out of her parents' house. Strangely, her only child, a son, has his own place with his family.
Marvelous precis on Seligman's Learned Optimism's foundation in helplessness - I remember reading it in the 90's (you were probably still in the pram)
Thank you, Darren, it was very helpful!❤
It is a fine line to walk when it comes to someone who has fallen a few times. My wife has and thankfully with no serious injury. I have consequently been very/over protective. I am torn between letting her walk alone in the house(she wants to do this)and escorting her everywhere.
Thank you so much
Jealous people punish you every time you progress. The better they know you the harder they punch.
My daughter has not been coddled but she has made choices since graduating from high school that has put her in the hole she is experiencing now. In the last 8 years we constantly suggested certain things to help herself but she always knew best. So we were forced to follow the counselors suggestions. We did. We had to ask her to leave with her child. We had to get the police involved. (The 4 year old lives with other grandmother). Both parents don’t work. Now we do not give any money. There were lots of reasons we had to do this. We have made sure a few times given food. We did not see this coming even though it happened in a span of 8 years. The counselor says we were not bad parents. She said there are patterns of not finishing anything, disrespect, addiction,and it beginning to affect my husband and I. There were other things she began to do that we could not tolerate. One thing I noticed even as a child she has never said “I’m sorry “ when she was in the wrong. We live in a rural area. We had to follow Scared Straight tactics. Our family/friends were almost appalled. It has been about 7 weeks. So far she has not taken any steps to help herself. As a parent you reach a point you have done all you can do. We do not really know her issues. I do think she shows signs of being narcissistic ways and then after listening to you today I think she has the issue of not wanting to take steps to help herself. We will continue to get counseling. 🙁❤️🙏❤️🇺🇸❤️
It sounds like you struggle to understand and find compassion your own emotions as well as those of your child. I hope you find counselling helpful.
My surrogate brother once said, "It's not even worth trying." Inside, my response was🤨
You answered my question thank you very interesting
0:45 I am confused as to how something LEARNED can be thought of as a disorder.
If it affects functioning and life yes
Thank you for the final insight. Because the syndrome is quite dangerous for the well being of people. I think also that most poor people have it and that's why they are prown to failure.
I have noticed something in life. I would like to know how others feel about this ... Does aggressive narcissism create covert narcissism ?
Not necessarily. It all depends on the individual.
Other words for learned helplessness: Attachment Disturbances.
Solution: Attachment Re-Mapping aka Attachment Repair Psychotherapy, e.g., The Three Pillars Method by Drs. Daniel P. Brown and David S. Elliott, introduced in 'Attachment Disturbances in Adults - Treatment for comprehensive Repair', 2016.
I would like some help about how to be around these people.
but isn't it true? bad things will happen, and we will not have control of it
edit : ok sorry I commented before the video ended
ABA therapy?
Hello
Please don’t tell me that’s the approach being used on me.
That would be a violation of human decency.
I am not a masochist.
Every thing about that idea is frightening. abusive and cruel.
I am not in boot camp.Nor have I signed up for anything like that.
At least in boot came there is :
a known being and end
a contract
daily instructions
a bed to sleep in
roof over your head
plus you can always
Opt out :
Not if you live in a country where military service is compulsory. In these countries men "learn" helplessness and stoicism early in their life unless they are rich and/or connected.
That lesson does not apply to people with a neurological different brain. Like if you would force and expect a paraplegic to run a marathon the same as everyone else.
Like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
Terrible audio.