Makes me wonder how much Lakshmi-2 remembered about The Veil, and if Savathun was tying up "loose ends" in orchestrating Lakshmi's downfall to keep knowledge of The Veil safe and only in Savathun's hands.
@@skyninjaslayer337Ikr? What makes me super salty is that I used to rep FWC gear because I just liked them and thought they were the most reasonable of the D1 factions, and then the turned them into space racists, so now I can't rep them
@@miniverse2002Makes one wonder if the veil is an antaginist after all... I mean, it doesn't seem to mind the witness wanting to commit universal genocide and reshaping the universe to it's own liking.
Maya is behaving a lot like Clovis. Maybe Maya was a much darker person than we thought, or maybe Clovis wasn't as evil as we believed but rather the Darkness amplified the evil within him, probably in Maya too
Considering what happened to Clovis when he came into contact with Clarity, it is possible and/or probable that Maya had similar experience with the Veil.
Not so much "evil", per se. There's no real malice in their intent. Just galaxy-scale hubris, an overweening messiah complex in Clovis's case, a powerful monomania in Maya's, and a belief system best summarized as "ethics is for FUCKING NERDS" (as Rylee would put it).
You don’t think the “her” she is referring to 21:23 is the Exo Stranger? In the Clovis Bray Lore book she goes to find the “real Maya. Not the Vex parasite”. If Lakshme 2 still had Maya’s memories then she would have seen her just as we did in D1s original campaign.
I don’t know, seems more like she’s referring to the way she looks when she says “I can tell by the way you’re staring”, but I do agree that it would make more sense for her to be talking about Elsie because obviously at that point maya was only a character mentioned in a couple grimoire cards, whereas Elsie was present at the end of D1 vanilla
FWIW, I've also always thought that the "her" in question is the Exo Stranger too. Just from a "Doylist" point of view, it makes sense that a D1 voice line would be talking about the Stranger rather than Maya. There's also a couple of voicelines from Destiny 2 where she talks about "her" again, saying that she has been "silent for so long", which I've always thought was a nod to the fact that we haven't seen the Exo Stranger in a while: Lakshmi-2: She has been silent for so long. No one has seen her in years, but I have faith. Lakshmi-2: We defended the City, the Consensus glorifies us, and yet I still long for another future. I still wish to see her. There's also a few lines recorded by the Device that reference "her" too: "I saw her! I saw her! No, send me back, I saw her!" - RECORD 453-CHASM-7377 www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulator-boots-2 "Her back is always turned to us. It's almost as if she knows we're watching." - RECORD 459-CHASM-1002 www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulator-hood It's also worth noting that the Stranger's notes use a similar formatting, though her transmission uses "Bridge" rather than "Chasm", suggesting that she was able to "bridge the chasm", i.e. she was able to transfer her body across time rather than just peering into it like the Device allows. RECORD 473 - BRIDGE - 1.2 Back to the Temple, again, but this time the Little one knows I'm here. I have seen the failures of so many, but none have been as interesting. Preparing to engage... www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-exo-stranger-2
I remember concept animation of D1 of a blue eyed, long hair woman who appeared to represent Light/The Traveler. And since that story was so butchered, I wonder if the line was meant for her before changing the story.
Something to consider is why would the Veil make an imprint of Maya into Lakshmi? "The way she looks at me, it's like it knows something I don't", almost seems to suggest that it's the "Vex Parasite" that's with Chioma, and that the real Maya has been long dead. The best way to confirm would be trying to find the copies of the Ishtar team that escaped the Vault of Glass with Praedyth and ask them.
Forking is a programming term, its mainly used for program repository where we branch off from the main program to repair, adjust or modify the program. Then the program can be merged back to the main one or become its own. So mind forking might be they are branching off from the main mind or thought process, like how Osiris made multiple copies of himself to explore the infinite forest.
Kinda thinking about "forking", or multithreading, in programming, like C++ programs. You can use the ability to make multithreaded functions to do multiple operations at the same time, especially if you have lots of compute cores to spread out the computational load over. Just make sure to manage those threads properly... 😅
21:35 - That most likely means the Exo Stranger. As I recall, Elsie kept popping up in the various timelines the Future War Cult viewed. Lakshmi-2 would know of the Exo Stranger because of this, and we met the Exo Stranger at the start of Destiny's story.
Cayde 6 aint shin. We met shin at the iron temple in destiny 1. He gave us the exotic khvostov quest. Ada-1 isn't a child as only adults or very close to adults could mentally handle becoming an exo, for a few days before dying horribly. Since mind wipes are common in modern exo, only an adult brain can handle it, and Banshee proves that it isn't a perminant solution
When they revealed lakshmi as a clone maya, I am starting to wonder about Savathun's objective during the slicer season. Was the vex simulation meant to destroy the last city, or to stop a certain mad cult leader who was a clone of a mad scientist?
She might have known truths about the veil that could fall into the wrong hands, and Savathunn wanted to ensure only she knows the whole truth and must be revived if she falls (which she most certainly did at our hands)... more and more proof that Savathunn is far far more cunning than anyone is willing to admit. She's got plans in plans with contingencies in contingencies to an astonishingly psychotic level JUST to keep the truth safe and to ensure the end of the Witness and the survival of ALL...
See that’s exactly why I don’t necessarily hate or even distrust Savathun, it feels like she has indirectly been sort of on the side of the last city or at least the traveler for a very long time albeit in underhanded ways, she’s how we got the Cabal alliance, she helped expose Lakshmi as a threat, she hid the veil and tricked the witness into thinking humanity was a threat, in her own twisted way she’s been with us this whole time
An earlier Containment entry says the Vex formed a shield over the city and that's why nobody could find Neomuna. It's literally what was happening to The Last City. Big question here on if the hiding is intentional or accidental? We could have been hidden from the Witness.
@@LaLloronaVT Savathun is not a trustworthy ally, but not an enemy either. It looks like she's using humanity as a tool (or rather, a weapon) to use against the Witness. Savathun engineered the alliance between Eliksni, Cabal, and human survivors, because she has seen that it is the most likely way to defeat the Witness (maybe the only practical way). She manipulates events to steer fate into the path of a conflict where she thinks we will win, and in the meantime she will protect the Last City and the other constituent parts of the alliance because it's the only way that victory can be achieved. Don't forget the past, too, where she went as far as to kill the Disciple Nezarec and halt the Collapse before it could completely ruin humanity, triggering the situation where Ghosts were released and Lightbearers were created (it's hinted Savathun has seen this happen before, eons ago). So by manipulating us, she is an enemy.. but in the final end result, she may a sort of ally.
The Veil maybe the most dangerous object in the Destiny universe. Even with the Witness gone it may not take long for the Veil to influence the Sol races into making a new Witness.
So theory. What if "Lakshmi 2.1" was not only Maya + Lakshmi but Maya + Lakshmi + All of the other exos that had been mind wiped. The Veil clearly has the ability to consolidate minds/ consciousnesses into a single body/ entity. What if Maya had stumbled upon this ability and was attempting to put together an assembly of strong exo minds, imprinting her own in addition in an attempt to create a mind with a) resilience enough to consistently run the machine and b) the potential to lead the lost city out of its potential ruin?
I’d imagine “mind-forking” to be something similar to when Osiris was splitting himself to explore the Infinite Forest, but a much more simple and sloppy way.
I think Osiris used the Infinite Forest to simulate himself and used his Light to connect himself to the reflection that was created. The Reflection is autonomous but still knows to relay what it finds back to Osiris.
@@noahv1479 agreed, but I still think it’s something similar to the idea of splitting your consciousness or mind into fragments that can see different moments or predictions. They wouldn’t be autonomous, but more connected to the user.
I think making Lakshmi a copy of Maya makes her more of a foil to Clovis Bray than before. Can't believe we had both Clovis (Banshee) and Maya (Lakshmi) in the Tower at the same time and no one knew.
This is great! THIS is exactly the magnitude that lore reveals in the eve of the final battle should be. And a far more important role for Lakshmi's voice actress btw) I wonder if we'll see her beyond the Veil too.
The way Lakshmi talks about seeing this mystery “her” very much comes off as a reference to the exo stranger IMO. This dialogue (I’m assuming) was in the game since vanilla, back when the stranger was a complete mystery. You’d always see her very briefly in the campaign and I’d assume Bungie would intend for players to hear this dialogue while they were still completing the vanilla campaign.
On Mind-Forking: my guess would be like code-forking, which is to make a copy that is reconcilable but separate. In the given context, this makes sense as Lakshmi-2 would want to explore different paths, but come back to her one self at the end, so each copy - being reconcilable - could be merged back into the main branch, to borrow a few more VCS terms
I was about to reply with exactly this. Taking the mind at certain and splitting (forking) it into a copy (known as a branch) of the main mind. This would allow modifications to be made to this copy (branch) to be made for various testing and additions (or subtractions) with out affecting the main mind. Then, following the code analogy, one could take the branched mind after having modified it and merge it back into the main mind, fundamentally changing it. Or perhaps keep the branched mind and fork off of that for further modification (though that starts to get a bit hairy after a while heh).
Also I find it interesting that while I don't know how many Exo's use decimial numbers in their naming... Lakshmi-2.1 strikes me as an interesting addition because the ".1" implies, at least in most software terms, as a minor revision. Where as going from 1 to 2, would be a major revision (which makes sense because that usually means an Exo has died and been reborn). So did she give her self the "2.1" minor revision update when she "upgraded" her mind a bit?
I've been doing some digging, and there are several constants that' seem to link these things together. 1.) Touching the Pink Triangle on the traveler has the same effect On Joxor as it does for others using Maya's "Device" from the Ishtar logs, letting them see their past and future events all at once. 2.) Maya has Clones of herself in AI form thanks to her experiments in the Vex Network she was trapped in. those clones stayed within the vex network to study it from within. 3.) Maya or one of her copies shows up to Europa to work for Clovis bray to get deeper information on Exos, specifically hacking his automated surgery machine to torture and extract information about "clarity" itself. After being stopped by Elizabeth Bray, they returned to the Vex Network where they Left a few more Jabs at Clovis mentioning there are billions of the copies now within the Vex Network. When asked about how she got on their team to begin with, Clovis has no records of them ever being on the trips expedition team to begin with as if she never existed. 4.) And finally, being able to copy her and others memories into dead Exo's using the Veil and Mind forking to be Lakshmi-2 and Maya at the same time. With these points established, the theory I have is this. Maya, upon seeing the future, learned that eventually her copies would be able to time travel, hence why she would leave a log behind for the other versions of herself to continue working with the device to guide humanity through futuresight. Upon being stranded on Neomuna, they'd continue their efforts getting the tool in the Veil that would allow her to use this future sight perfectly. Exo's being made with Vex-radiolaria could theoretically time travel while housing a copy of Maya's consciousness via Mind forking, would allow her to take all the knowledge of all possible futures and then guide humanity to their version of a perfect world. it would explain why Maya knows about Clarity-control on Europa despite never actually being their as her collective consciousness within the vex network exists outside of time. So any Exo potentially could be re-written by Maya Sunderesh while still remaining their own person, like a sleeper agent with the perfect disguise. Just as they did with Lakshmi-2, they could have sent her back 40 years from the present day to build themselves the Future War Cult. who knows what else she could have manipulated as the only thing we know for certain is they happily accept Exos in Destiny 1. ( I don;t know about this, but is "the Speaker" ever confirmed a specific race?) So if you've been with me so far, there is another theory that while with less evidence, could be one reason Cayde-6 is back in the final shape. either A.) when he was trapped in a Vex time loop on Io, he got replaced with a Maya copy of themselves as she and Cayde did work together during the golden Age. This would Make the Cayde 6 that died in forsaken a planned move by Maya all while keeping the real Cayde hidden somewhere in the Vex Network. OR B.)Cayde showing up now after his actual death in Forsaken is just a copy made by Sunderesh to try and regain control of their perfect timeline and the Vanguard or at least one faction of them in the hunters to sow more dissent in their ranks
This should have a mission marker everywhere. A gameplay incentive, not just there for those who want to SEEK out lore specifically. I had no idea this was in the game until about 2 weeks ago.
It wouldn’t surprise me if these dialogues from Lakshmi-2 before post-Season of the Splicer was planned to reveal Strand. Maybe Bungie had a faint idea of that subclass before getting serious in its development. Who knows, it could all be coincidental. In any case, these connections between Maya and Lakshmi, and what happened in the past, makes more sense. Yet it’s still worrying.
Bungie had a clear idea of what they wanted Strand to be while WQ was in development. They’re quoted saying that they cut “a darkness subclass” later in the WQ’s development to save for a later expansion.
@@ThatGuy-rz6tvdon't forget witch queen armor having strand symbols on it and the deepsight appearing at areas featuring large gaps that would otherwise require long traversal techniques.
On the topic of Maya being possessed; we know that when they first found the Veil, Maya heard a whisper, one that used her own voice. Idk what that might hint at, but it might have to do with the changes she underwent.
When Lakshmi-2 says “So… I can tell by the way you stare at me, you’ve seen her, haven’t you?”, I figured the “she” that is referred to is one of the Veiled Figures of Darkness like the ones from the Garden of Salvation and the Deep Stone Crypt.
@@npc6254 While not directly mentioning Elsie, the No Time to Explain quest in D1 involved going to Ana Bray's last known whereabouts at Twilight Gap (when she was presumed dead) and it was discovered there were timestream disruptions, implying the Stranger's presence. Even if it wasn't Elsie then, the Stranger seemed to always having something to do with the Brays.
@@aetreas8153 Yes, I recall, however, there were other things included in that quest that are totally irrelevant to Elsie Bray. There was a praedyth/vault of glass inclusion and pujari as well.
Thank you for everything you do. People like you and Mylin make this game so much more interesting through your interpretations. Speaking of, I plan on sending a donation to him too.
the thing that sticks out to me most is that this involves the veil, which in turn involves savathun. perhaps we may hear more next season in how savathun had circumscribed the existence of lakshmi 2
Seeing that Savi had already influenced Maya before she put herself in Lakshmi I'm sure it was easy to do it again and that Lakshmi had always been compromised.
also concerning the Device, Lakshmi-2, Maya Sundaresh... besides being an EXO maybe Lakshmi-2.1 had an easier time handling the Device because she had in some capacity already worked on a machine that could predict the future - Soteria, the Augurmind
When it comes to "mind-forking", I believe it is about fragmenting the mind to view multiple futures at once. iirc, in a D1 grimoire a Ghost uses the device and experiences multiple timelines that flash by quickly. And in SotSplicer, Misraaks seems to know about the device and states that it is taboo and the use of it is banned in House Light because the Eliksni can't handle having their minds fractured.
Maya Sundaresh or a Vex copy of her also ends up mentioned within the old The Insight Terminus under the username MSund12 The Vex Copy being the same copy that sent a distress call in destiny 1 as they attempted to excape the black garden and The Undying Mind who was attempting to prevent their excape, I believe that they failed to and are still trapped within the vex network, or atleast Vex Copy of them are, along with the rest of the Ishtar Collective
I honestly think savvy found out that Lakshmi had the knowledge of the veil when he was using the device and when queria was still alive, seeing as the device used Vextech its not too hard to think that queria was monitoring the minds of the people using the devise, and thus savvy targeted lakshmi with her corruption so that she could eliminate the knowledge of the location of the veil so it wouldn't throw a rench in her plans later down the line
One of the big things is that the reason the Guardian was able to get into Ishtar collective stuff on Venus was because they were accepted as "Dr. Shim", one of Maya Sundaresh and Chioma Esi's coworkers at the Ishtar Collective. (Who was also one of the scientists copied into the Vex network that would later interact with Praedyth, noted by them as being 'usually the quietest one'.) Basically, if the Guardian is Shim... then the Guardian HAS seen Her - or at least, heard Her. In their past life. (Or possibly, two past lives ago, if they were on the Exodus Green, became an Awoken Corsair, left the Distributary to the Reef, travelled from the Reef to Earth, and then died in the Cosmodrome.) ... Right, and given Savathun was directly controlling Quria during Splicer, being able to mess with the Vex prediction engine they were using to push Lakshmi that way seems likely.
I love how this just came out of left field, and that it retroactively 'fixes' how it felt like killing Lakshmi back in that season was just random throwing away of a legacy character, that it turns out her death ties into more things than just the Vex or Savathuns plans but on the nature of the Veil and Neomuna itself.
I think this highlights so much the D2 story problem of things being impossible to catch up on. I started with Lightfall, I had *never* heard of Lakshmi-2 until this video.
Hey this is a message from the future, turns out this wasn't a retcon or a rewrite, someone predicted this 7 years ago based on maya and old lakshmi 2 and how they are the same because of their namesakes from Buddhism
mind forking is described. It's shown as splitting your mind between multiple realities and then reforming it with the latent memories of those realities. That separation and realignment is what drove humans crazy.
Hey Byf. Maybe not the video to drop this in, but I came up with a theory that might have to do with Egregore or what it is. Seeing as we've seen it as coral and fungi, 2 wildly different things, I got to thinking that maybe it's just substances and matter directly linked to mass death. What lead me to this? The crystalline structures found within the pyramids. The first time I saw them I thought to myself, 'Why do all of these look like bodies?' Then the cutscene detailing the origin of The Witness dropped and it started clicking. Those statues are the crystalized remains of it's, and possibly other, species. Seeing as the pyramids are technology developed by The Witness's species rather than the darkness itself, it got me wondering how it seemed capable of controlling the ships to the extent we have seen it. Which led me back to the Glykon, the Leviathan, Calus, and Egregore. So I went back through some of your videos trying to find the connection for Egregore and it finally clicked. Carbon. Fungi, at least the fungi we know of, feasts upon dead carbon based lifeforms. Coral, while not a lifeform that feasts on it, is made from carbon scoured from the seafloor by other organisms. What else is made from carbon? Diamonds. This whole time, The Witness has been puppeteering the dead remains of it's civilization. How much you want to bet it's been watching us through those statues. TL:DR: The Witness is using the crystalized corpses of it's species as a form of Egregore. Also, Egregore is more than just fungus and coral.
I feel with all the lore we’re looking back on that it’s a very high possibility that Elsie (while possibly not being apart of Maya’s experiments) was an exo that lakshimi had brought on and was able to use the powers just like she could which also explains the vast amount of dark timelines Elsie talks about. On top of that I wonder if maya may have made chio into Elsie (the voices sound faintly similar) but that’s a far stretched thought of mine.
I'm intrigued by the fact that you didn't mention the multiplication of the Ishtar team in the Vex network. With 227 each of Maya and Chioma running around, it makes sense that Clovis would be confused by the inconsistent behaviour of Maya, but it's interesting to consider which pair of Maya and Chioma were at the Veil doing the experiments that led to Lakshmi-2.1
With Savathun being invested in the Veil and Neptune, I wonder if she targeted Lakshmi purely for that reason. Either to find out what she knew about the Veil, or to keep her origins hidden from the Witness? Perhaps Lakshmi was a key to passing through the Portal, and Savy got the info from her just before letting her get killed by(Ironically) Vex?
I think that when Lakshmi 2 says "you've seen her, haven't you?" she's talking about Elsie Bray. It would make some sense as both have knowledge of the future and it only stands to reason that they'd know of eachother.
Maya has definitely been curropted by the darkness. She is doing close to the same thing the witness is doing in being so focused on knowing about the future. I feel this should be more in the forefront of the story as this might be instrumental in helping us understand the veil more and its connection to the traveler.
i feel they were made in a way to where they could retroactively intertwine it with concepts that likely were still in the early concept stages once they fleshed it out
I think at this point it’s apparent that something happened to Maya when she was playing around with the vex on Venus. The Maya we know may be some sort of vex infiltrator.
To help with understanding mind forking, it is important to know what forking does in computer systems. Using the fork() command in Unix uses the concept of parent process and child process. When the parent process forks, an exact duplicate of its current state and memory is created; the child. The parent then waits and does nothing. The child process runs like the parent while knowing it's a child. The memory state tells it what it needs to do and when the information is completed returns data at the same time it destroys itself. Only when the child is gone will the parent wake up and look at what the child has produced in the returned data. Using that information the parent can either be satisfied and end or create new data to have the next child try. Tl;Dr: Lakshmi performing mind forking is possibly creating an exact duplicate, or child, of her mind, or parent, then proceeds to have the child look into the possible futures. Once the child is done with its work the data is returned to the parent and then the child disappears. Possibly a way to prevent insanity since the parent knows it is the original and any information being returned is definitely not real.
I feel like the concept of "Mind Forking" may be similar to the idea of "code forking" in large programming projects, where it isn't so much a subdivision of a mind, but more a making a copy of a mind in order so that multiple possibilities can be explored and tested, and later the beneficial changes from all "forks" could be merged into a new updated version of the mind, similar to how changes in forked code get re-integrated into a new update.
If this lore was hidden on your radar then imagine this audience who's probably never heard it at all. I hope you find something back at the lore from season of the splicer That you didn't catch before. This is the kind of stuff that I really love about Destiny. If something like that could have been hidden or flew so far under the radar I am totally here for it
Maya Sundaresh is also connected to the Insight Terminus strike on Nessus: After defeating the boss, Ghost gives some exposition on Otzot and OXA--a prediction engine based on Vex tech. Several months ago, Evaze posted a video based on connections that one of his followers made. Most startling was a theory that links OXA, and an alternate name for it---OXTA-- and Taox, a Krill tutor to the 3 Hive sisters of the Osmium dynasty, and an anagram of OXTA.
It's funny that you describe Lakshmi as "politically ruthless". Shohreh Aghdashloo who voiced her also played a very "politically ruthless" character in The Expanse. As a relative newb to Destiny. The theories behind Mind forking sounds similar to how quantum computers work. A bunch of different bits all seeking all possible outcomes to find the answer
Not strictly related but I definitely remember a lore tab I think you covered Byf, of Lakshmi conversing with Namrask, formerly Akileuks, about how she recognises him from when he sacked golden age London.
Remember what happen after season of the seraph? When Rasputin talked about Neptune? He said that there was something called the veil and that somebody tried to keep the file’s hidden
A little on "Mind Forking": from a computer science perspective, "forking" is a process that creates a copy of a object that is bound to the original in some fashion. As an example, most browsers fork off extra processes for each tab or task, but each one of those forked processes is still ultimately subject to the original process. What's also interesting, is that in most cases where forking is used, the forked object is completely mutable, so it can be modified to a degree that would make it almost entirely different from the original. With that in mind, Mind Forking is likely something along the same lines as what Osiris was capable of in the Infinite Forest: the ability to make copies of oneself that are indistinguishable from the original, capable of independent thought and action. Each copy would react to situations in almost the same manner as the original, so they would make effective probes. Since the future sight machine that Lakshmi was using only sent one's consciousness, there is a possibility that she was able to spin off a potentially infinite number of copies of herself to explore a massive number of possible futures. The only question that I would have is about what happened when each copy was re-merged with the original. We know human memory can house a staggering amount of information, but I wonder how her exo mind was able to process/compress/store the experiences of millions of versions of herself.
I'm borrowing lore from a separate game based on the Takeshi Kovacs novels by Richard K. Morgan, but "forking" is most likely making several copies of one's self (if one's mind has been converted into digital data) for various tasks. It would make sense how Lakshmi-2 would've been able to look into multiple timeliness using that technique .
you actually just load straight into the room where the terminal is and can use it straight away if you've already done the main quest for it. Still a bit out of the way though
21:45 I think she's supposedly talking about Elsie the Stranger. It'd be cool if it was referring to Maya, but Lakshmi did speak about the Stranger in some dialogue, but mostly in the Taken King quest to get the No Time To Explain, where we have to go into the Vault of Glass and get Atheon's eye and the Paradox quest where we can retrieve Praedyth's Ghost.
i pretty sure she knew otherwise she would have been lakshmi-3 when we knew her at the tower. if so this is crazy, all those years at the tower and she knew all the secrets neomuna, the veil. It makes us have to re-examine every thing she did right up to her death in season of the splicer.
The Vex hid Neomuna from everyone according to an earlier entry. If that wasn't an accidental thing, then that's likely a BIG link to explore. Especially since they were doing the same thing to The Last City during Splicer.
I just realized from watching you video midway... What if Savathun was Maya Sundaresh the same way she took over Osiris? This would explain why Maya no longer treated Chioma Esi the same way like "Osiris" did with Saint-14? It would also explain the Veil being on Neptune and how Savathun got it there.
I would kind of like to see a video with an overview of Maya Sundaresh once the Veil Containment logs wrap up. Every time I see that name pop up, it's Trouble.
The Scribetrace Ghost shell seems to imply Asher is dead now or at least for me it does. Also fun fact Praedyth's met a bunch of the Maya clones in the Aspect lore book
When Lakshmi - 2 mentioned the line ''From the way you're looking at me... I can tell you've seen her too'' I IMMEDIATELY thought about Elsie Bray/ The Exo Stranger.
The theory that comes to my mind, is in relation to all the exos used in relation to the veil, and Ishtar study on Venus, black garden copy, radiolara fluid aka ‘clarity’ in both exos and vex, and then the scene ‘their all dead, gone’… snow balls to this: the exos are a fragmented copy of vex, but they in a ‘paracusal’ way, the source of vex via the vail, or exos stage one, vex stage two evolution. The traveler makes Light bearing guardians. The veil… makes the vex. The yen and the Yang.
Usually there are “coincidental” connections between old and new lore, but stuff like this really makes you wonder if there was more of a plan than we give bungie credit for.
So ‘Clarity’ is simply the emergence of consciousness? That would make sense why it would come alongside the Veil. Paracausal forces can likely spontaneously cause the universe to become self aware. And so it could be described as ‘The Universe looking upon it’s form with Clarity’
I always thought the “you’ve seen her” comment from Lakshmei was in reference to Elsie/The Stranger since they’re from the future and likely saw something most don’t approve if
Makes me wonder how much Lakshmi-2 remembered about The Veil, and if Savathun was tying up "loose ends" in orchestrating Lakshmi's downfall to keep knowledge of The Veil safe and only in Savathun's hands.
I still won’t forget that they got rid of clans and clan wars pretty much im still salty
Damn. That's a good insight. Savathun's plan to guarentee her resurrection!
@@skyninjaslayer337Ikr? What makes me super salty is that I used to rep FWC gear because I just liked them and thought they were the most reasonable of the D1 factions, and then the turned them into space racists, so now I can't rep them
@@ArcherJLadygood, one less eliksni lover filth among FWC's ranks. Eliksni lovers get the rope first. Future War Chuds are in control
@@ArcherJLady hold up!?
Anyone else notice how Maya's experiment seems to mirror Calus' experiments in Presage
Or what The Witness's people did to create it. Maya from these logs is going down an eerily similar path.
@@ShadowEclipse777 Seems like it doesn't matter who finds the veil. They'll soon be consumed with obsession.
@@miniverse2002Makes one wonder if the veil is an antaginist after all...
I mean, it doesn't seem to mind the witness wanting to commit universal genocide and reshaping the universe to it's own liking.
Mabe the veil is the "line" between light and dark a sort of neutral power that doesn't lean either way.
Maya is behaving a lot like Clovis. Maybe Maya was a much darker person than we thought, or maybe Clovis wasn't as evil as we believed but rather the Darkness amplified the evil within him, probably in Maya too
Considering what happened to Clovis when he came into contact with Clarity, it is possible and/or probable that Maya had similar experience with the Veil.
Not so much "evil", per se. There's no real malice in their intent. Just galaxy-scale hubris, an overweening messiah complex in Clovis's case, a powerful monomania in Maya's, and a belief system best summarized as "ethics is for FUCKING NERDS" (as Rylee would put it).
Perhaps the Veil has an agenda of its own. It certainly is a dangerous object in its own right. Maya may have walked the same steps as the Witness.
I think when Maya was playing around with the vex on Venus, something happened. I think the Maya Sundaresh we know isn’t the original Maya.
Clovis definitely had a screw loose prior to his contact with clarity
You don’t think the “her” she is referring to 21:23 is the Exo Stranger?
In the Clovis Bray Lore book she goes to find the “real Maya. Not the Vex parasite”. If Lakshme 2 still had Maya’s memories then she would have seen her just as we did in D1s original campaign.
That sounds a lot more in line with D1's story. It could even be that Lakshmi has seen the Exo Stranger across different timelines where Elsie failed.
I don’t know, seems more like she’s referring to the way she looks when she says “I can tell by the way you’re staring”, but I do agree that it would make more sense for her to be talking about Elsie because obviously at that point maya was only a character mentioned in a couple grimoire cards, whereas Elsie was present at the end of D1 vanilla
FWIW, I've also always thought that the "her" in question is the Exo Stranger too. Just from a "Doylist" point of view, it makes sense that a D1 voice line would be talking about the Stranger rather than Maya.
There's also a couple of voicelines from Destiny 2 where she talks about "her" again, saying that she has been "silent for so long", which I've always thought was a nod to the fact that we haven't seen the Exo Stranger in a while:
Lakshmi-2: She has been silent for so long. No one has seen her in years, but I have faith.
Lakshmi-2: We defended the City, the Consensus glorifies us, and yet I still long for another future. I still wish to see her.
There's also a few lines recorded by the Device that reference "her" too:
"I saw her! I saw her! No, send me back, I saw her!" - RECORD 453-CHASM-7377
www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulator-boots-2
"Her back is always turned to us. It's almost as if she knows we're watching." - RECORD 459-CHASM-1002
www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulator-hood
It's also worth noting that the Stranger's notes use a similar formatting, though her transmission uses "Bridge" rather than "Chasm", suggesting that she was able to "bridge the chasm", i.e. she was able to transfer her body across time rather than just peering into it like the Device allows.
RECORD 473 - BRIDGE - 1.2
Back to the Temple, again, but this time the Little one knows I'm here. I have seen the failures of so many, but none have been as interesting. Preparing to engage...
www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-exo-stranger-2
I remember concept animation of D1 of a blue eyed, long hair woman who appeared to represent Light/The Traveler. And since that story was so butchered, I wonder if the line was meant for her before changing the story.
Something to consider is why would the Veil make an imprint of Maya into Lakshmi? "The way she looks at me, it's like it knows something I don't", almost seems to suggest that it's the "Vex Parasite" that's with Chioma, and that the real Maya has been long dead. The best way to confirm would be trying to find the copies of the Ishtar team that escaped the Vault of Glass with Praedyth and ask them.
Forking is a programming term, its mainly used for program repository where we branch off from the main program to repair, adjust or modify the program.
Then the program can be merged back to the main one or become its own. So mind forking might be they are branching off from the main mind or thought process, like how Osiris made multiple copies of himself to explore the infinite forest.
Kinda thinking about "forking", or multithreading, in programming, like C++ programs. You can use the ability to make multithreaded functions to do multiple operations at the same time, especially if you have lots of compute cores to spread out the computational load over. Just make sure to manage those threads properly... 😅
21:35 - That most likely means the Exo Stranger. As I recall, Elsie kept popping up in the various timelines the Future War Cult viewed. Lakshmi-2 would know of the Exo Stranger because of this, and we met the Exo Stranger at the start of Destiny's story.
Lakshmi-2 being Maya. Banshee-44 was Clovis Bray. Who's next? Ada-1 is a child? Cayde-6 was Shin Malphur?
Ada-1 was Adelaide, daughter of one of the top Black Armoury ladies just before The Collapse, I think it was Helga's daughter.
Cayde 6 aint shin. We met shin at the iron temple in destiny 1. He gave us the exotic khvostov quest.
Ada-1 isn't a child as only adults or very close to adults could mentally handle becoming an exo, for a few days before dying horribly. Since mind wipes are common in modern exo, only an adult brain can handle it, and Banshee proves that it isn't a perminant solution
@@alexgilgaladHelga was old af when she died during the collapse wasn't she?
@anotter321 true that, but during the golden age humanity's life span almost tripled.
Zavala is Oryx
When they revealed lakshmi as a clone maya, I am starting to wonder about Savathun's objective during the slicer season. Was the vex simulation meant to destroy the last city, or to stop a certain mad cult leader who was a clone of a mad scientist?
She might have known truths about the veil that could fall into the wrong hands, and Savathunn wanted to ensure only she knows the whole truth and must be revived if she falls (which she most certainly did at our hands)... more and more proof that Savathunn is far far more cunning than anyone is willing to admit. She's got plans in plans with contingencies in contingencies to an astonishingly psychotic level JUST to keep the truth safe and to ensure the end of the Witness and the survival of ALL...
See that’s exactly why I don’t necessarily hate or even distrust Savathun, it feels like she has indirectly been sort of on the side of the last city or at least the traveler for a very long time albeit in underhanded ways, she’s how we got the Cabal alliance, she helped expose Lakshmi as a threat, she hid the veil and tricked the witness into thinking humanity was a threat, in her own twisted way she’s been with us this whole time
An earlier Containment entry says the Vex formed a shield over the city and that's why nobody could find Neomuna. It's literally what was happening to The Last City. Big question here on if the hiding is intentional or accidental? We could have been hidden from the Witness.
@@LaLloronaVT Savathun is not a trustworthy ally, but not an enemy either. It looks like she's using humanity as a tool (or rather, a weapon) to use against the Witness.
Savathun engineered the alliance between Eliksni, Cabal, and human survivors, because she has seen that it is the most likely way to defeat the Witness (maybe the only practical way).
She manipulates events to steer fate into the path of a conflict where she thinks we will win, and in the meantime she will protect the Last City and the other constituent parts of the alliance because it's the only way that victory can be achieved.
Don't forget the past, too, where she went as far as to kill the Disciple Nezarec and halt the Collapse before it could completely ruin humanity, triggering the situation where Ghosts were released and Lightbearers were created (it's hinted Savathun has seen this happen before, eons ago).
So by manipulating us, she is an enemy.. but in the final end result, she may a sort of ally.
@@cykeok3525 a frenemy, if you will
Maya and Clovis seem possessed by the same demon... which is fascinating on so many levels
Yet we're supposed to believe that Elsie came out of this unscathed. I don't think that's the case at all.
And likely The Witness's people and itself. A wanton disregard for the universe at large for the chance the cleave away at it and reshape it
The Veil maybe the most dangerous object in the Destiny universe. Even with the Witness gone it may not take long for the Veil to influence the Sol races into making a new Witness.
So theory. What if "Lakshmi 2.1" was not only Maya + Lakshmi but Maya + Lakshmi + All of the other exos that had been mind wiped. The Veil clearly has the ability to consolidate minds/ consciousnesses into a single body/ entity.
What if Maya had stumbled upon this ability and was attempting to put together an assembly of strong exo minds, imprinting her own in addition in an attempt to create a mind with a) resilience enough to consistently run the machine and b) the potential to lead the lost city out of its potential ruin?
I’d imagine “mind-forking” to be something similar to when Osiris was splitting himself to explore the Infinite Forest, but a much more simple and sloppy way.
I think Osiris used the Infinite Forest to simulate himself and used his Light to connect himself to the reflection that was created. The Reflection is autonomous but still knows to relay what it finds back to Osiris.
@@noahv1479 agreed, but I still think it’s something similar to the idea of splitting your consciousness or mind into fragments that can see different moments or predictions. They wouldn’t be autonomous, but more connected to the user.
I think making Lakshmi a copy of Maya makes her more of a foil to Clovis Bray than before. Can't believe we had both Clovis (Banshee) and Maya (Lakshmi) in the Tower at the same time and no one knew.
The veil reminds me of the one ring in a way it seems to be either corrupting or tempting those towards the darkness
So is Savathun Sam and we are Frodo or the other way around😅
This is great! THIS is exactly the magnitude that lore reveals in the eve of the final battle should be. And a far more important role for Lakshmi's voice actress btw) I wonder if we'll see her beyond the Veil too.
The way Lakshmi talks about seeing this mystery “her” very much comes off as a reference to the exo stranger IMO. This dialogue (I’m assuming) was in the game since vanilla, back when the stranger was a complete mystery. You’d always see her very briefly in the campaign and I’d assume Bungie would intend for players to hear this dialogue while they were still completing the vanilla campaign.
I thought the same. So much of D1 was focused on Exo stranger
On Mind-Forking: my guess would be like code-forking, which is to make a copy that is reconcilable but separate. In the given context, this makes sense as Lakshmi-2 would want to explore different paths, but come back to her one self at the end, so each copy - being reconcilable - could be merged back into the main branch, to borrow a few more VCS terms
A fitting analogy given exos are part machine and all.
I was about to reply with exactly this. Taking the mind at certain and splitting (forking) it into a copy (known as a branch) of the main mind. This would allow modifications to be made to this copy (branch) to be made for various testing and additions (or subtractions) with out affecting the main mind. Then, following the code analogy, one could take the branched mind after having modified it and merge it back into the main mind, fundamentally changing it. Or perhaps keep the branched mind and fork off of that for further modification (though that starts to get a bit hairy after a while heh).
Also I find it interesting that while I don't know how many Exo's use decimial numbers in their naming... Lakshmi-2.1 strikes me as an interesting addition because the ".1" implies, at least in most software terms, as a minor revision. Where as going from 1 to 2, would be a major revision (which makes sense because that usually means an Exo has died and been reborn). So did she give her self the "2.1" minor revision update when she "upgraded" her mind a bit?
Thanks for the Lore, Lore Daddy.
Imagine if someone called someone else lore daddy during sex
@@teramael"Ass astra, Guardian. I'll see you bedside."
@@HouseOfHuzzah I can't
@@HouseOfHuzzahLMAOOOOO
@@HouseOfHuzzahpetition to get byf to do this as his outro
I've been doing some digging, and there are several constants that' seem to link these things together.
1.) Touching the Pink Triangle on the traveler has the same effect On Joxor as it does for others using Maya's "Device" from the Ishtar logs, letting them see their past and future events all at once.
2.) Maya has Clones of herself in AI form thanks to her experiments in the Vex Network she was trapped in. those clones stayed within the vex network to study it from within.
3.) Maya or one of her copies shows up to Europa to work for Clovis bray to get deeper information on Exos, specifically hacking his automated surgery machine to torture and extract information about "clarity" itself. After being stopped by Elizabeth Bray, they returned to the Vex Network where they Left a few more Jabs at Clovis mentioning there are billions of the copies now within the Vex Network. When asked about how she got on their team to begin with, Clovis has no records of them ever being on the trips expedition team to begin with as if she never existed.
4.) And finally, being able to copy her and others memories into dead Exo's using the Veil and Mind forking to be Lakshmi-2 and Maya at the same time.
With these points established, the theory I have is this. Maya, upon seeing the future, learned that eventually her copies would be able to time travel, hence why she would leave a log behind for the other versions of herself to continue working with the device to guide humanity through futuresight. Upon being stranded on Neomuna, they'd continue their efforts getting the tool in the Veil that would allow her to use this future sight perfectly. Exo's being made with Vex-radiolaria could theoretically time travel while housing a copy of Maya's consciousness via Mind forking, would allow her to take all the knowledge of all possible futures and then guide humanity to their version of a perfect world. it would explain why Maya knows about Clarity-control on Europa despite never actually being their as her collective consciousness within the vex network exists outside of time.
So any Exo potentially could be re-written by Maya Sunderesh while still remaining their own person, like a sleeper agent with the perfect disguise. Just as they did with Lakshmi-2, they could have sent her back 40 years from the present day to build themselves the Future War Cult. who knows what else she could have manipulated as the only thing we know for certain is they happily accept Exos in Destiny 1. ( I don;t know about this, but is "the Speaker" ever confirmed a specific race?)
So if you've been with me so far, there is another theory that while with less evidence, could be one reason Cayde-6 is back in the final shape. either A.) when he was trapped in a Vex time loop on Io, he got replaced with a Maya copy of themselves as she and Cayde did work together during the golden Age. This would Make the Cayde 6 that died in forsaken a planned move by Maya all while keeping the real Cayde hidden somewhere in the Vex Network. OR B.)Cayde showing up now after his actual death in Forsaken is just a copy made by Sunderesh to try and regain control of their perfect timeline and the Vanguard or at least one faction of them in the hunters to sow more dissent in their ranks
This should have a mission marker everywhere. A gameplay incentive, not just there for those who want to SEEK out lore specifically. I had no idea this was in the game until about 2 weeks ago.
After hearing all these logs, I think Clovis Bray has really rubbed off on Maya.
Disgusting.
It wouldn’t surprise me if these dialogues from Lakshmi-2 before post-Season of the Splicer was planned to reveal Strand. Maybe Bungie had a faint idea of that subclass before getting serious in its development. Who knows, it could all be coincidental. In any case, these connections between Maya and Lakshmi, and what happened in the past, makes more sense. Yet it’s still worrying.
Bungie had a clear idea of what they wanted Strand to be while WQ was in development. They’re quoted saying that they cut “a darkness subclass” later in the WQ’s development to save for a later expansion.
@@ThatGuy-rz6tvdon't forget witch queen armor having strand symbols on it and the deepsight appearing at areas featuring large gaps that would otherwise require long traversal techniques.
On the topic of Maya being possessed; we know that when they first found the Veil, Maya heard a whisper, one that used her own voice.
Idk what that might hint at, but it might have to do with the changes she underwent.
The Witness, just like when he appeared to us as us speaking with our voice
@@BalloonMerchant but then the witness wouldve known the veil is on neomuna. which he didnt
I'm so intrigued as to what this ultimately leads to. This is what I love about the lore.
When Lakshmi-2 says “So… I can tell by the way you stare at me, you’ve seen her, haven’t you?”, I figured the “she” that is referred to is one of the Veiled Figures of Darkness like the ones from the Garden of Salvation and the Deep Stone Crypt.
I always took it to be Elsie but maybe that's the easy speculation?
Thank you for giving a shout out to Myelin. I love both of your guys content. And it’s great to hear Lore Daddy giving him props.
I think "her" was the Exo Stranger. Many thought she was Maya Sundaresh, and that the Exo Stranger being Elsie Bray was a retcon.
It wasn’t a retcon it was always hinted at in the lore that the stranger was elsie
@@outbreakperfected5704Was it? The only mention of Elsie before the warmind reveal was on a blue ship from D1.
@@npc6254 While not directly mentioning Elsie, the No Time to Explain quest in D1 involved going to Ana Bray's last known whereabouts at Twilight Gap (when she was presumed dead) and it was discovered there were timestream disruptions, implying the Stranger's presence. Even if it wasn't Elsie then, the Stranger seemed to always having something to do with the Brays.
@@aetreas8153 Yes, I recall, however, there were other things included in that quest that are totally irrelevant to Elsie Bray. There was a praedyth/vault of glass inclusion and pujari as well.
the fact that this has connections to season of the splicer is so cool, bungie has a surprisingly good batting average when it comes to retcon stuff
Thank you for everything you do. People like you and Mylin make this game so much more interesting through your interpretations. Speaking of, I plan on sending a donation to him too.
the thing that sticks out to me most is that this involves the veil, which in turn involves savathun. perhaps we may hear more next season in how savathun had circumscribed the existence of lakshmi 2
"She is a political monster"
I see old Avasarala is like this even as an exo. Oh Christie...
Seeing that Savi had already influenced Maya before she put herself in Lakshmi I'm sure it was easy to do it again and that Lakshmi had always been compromised.
Lakshmi had a Banshee-44 moment and forgot some important information
More like Lakshmi knew and kept it to herself.
The “you’ve seen her” like could be meaning The Stranger due to it being in Destiny 1 and her being an Exo and being mysterious as well.
also concerning the Device, Lakshmi-2, Maya Sundaresh... besides being an EXO maybe Lakshmi-2.1 had an easier time handling the Device because she had in some capacity already worked on a machine that could predict the future - Soteria, the Augurmind
Lakshmi-2, The Conductor seat, Maya Sundaresh. It's been here the whole time.
When it comes to "mind-forking", I believe it is about fragmenting the mind to view multiple futures at once. iirc, in a D1 grimoire a Ghost uses the device and experiences multiple timelines that flash by quickly. And in SotSplicer, Misraaks seems to know about the device and states that it is taboo and the use of it is banned in House Light because the Eliksni can't handle having their minds fractured.
Maya Sundaresh or a Vex copy of her also ends up mentioned within the old The Insight Terminus under the username MSund12
The Vex Copy being the same copy that sent a distress call in destiny 1 as they attempted to excape the black garden and The Undying Mind who was attempting to prevent their excape, I believe that they failed to and are still trapped within the vex network, or atleast Vex Copy of them are, along with the rest of the Ishtar Collective
I wouldn’t waste time looking over old FWC stuff. 100:1 bungie decided on this “revelation” within the last 12 months
I honestly think savvy found out that Lakshmi had the knowledge of the veil when he was using the device and when queria was still alive, seeing as the device used Vextech its not too hard to think that queria was monitoring the minds of the people using the devise, and thus savvy targeted lakshmi with her corruption so that she could eliminate the knowledge of the location of the veil so it wouldn't throw a rench in her plans later down the line
One of the big things is that the reason the Guardian was able to get into Ishtar collective stuff on Venus was because they were accepted as "Dr. Shim", one of Maya Sundaresh and Chioma Esi's coworkers at the Ishtar Collective. (Who was also one of the scientists copied into the Vex network that would later interact with Praedyth, noted by them as being 'usually the quietest one'.)
Basically, if the Guardian is Shim... then the Guardian HAS seen Her - or at least, heard Her. In their past life. (Or possibly, two past lives ago, if they were on the Exodus Green, became an Awoken Corsair, left the Distributary to the Reef, travelled from the Reef to Earth, and then died in the Cosmodrome.)
... Right, and given Savathun was directly controlling Quria during Splicer, being able to mess with the Vex prediction engine they were using to push Lakshmi that way seems likely.
I had always assumed the "Her," that Lakshmi referred to was The Exo Stranger who would, I'd imagine, likely appear in many versions of the future
I love how this just came out of left field, and that it retroactively 'fixes' how it felt like killing Lakshmi back in that season was just random throwing away of a legacy character, that it turns out her death ties into more things than just the Vex or Savathuns plans but on the nature of the Veil and Neomuna itself.
This upload time is literally perfect. An hour before I work so I listen on the way. ❤
I think this highlights so much the D2 story problem of things being impossible to catch up on. I started with Lightfall, I had *never* heard of Lakshmi-2 until this video.
Hey this is a message from the future, turns out this wasn't a retcon or a rewrite, someone predicted this 7 years ago based on maya and old lakshmi 2 and how they are the same because of their namesakes from Buddhism
Ironically, Byf picked up “The Number” in his gameplay…
Putting the best story content in a place no one's gonna see is such a Destiny moment
mind forking is described. It's shown as splitting your mind between multiple realities and then reforming it with the latent memories of those realities. That separation and realignment is what drove humans crazy.
"Political monster" Laksmi-2. How fitting she is voiced by the same actress that plays Crisjen Avasalara on The Expanse.
These lore videos certainly helps a lot. Makes me sleep peacefully. Thanks!
Hey Byf. Maybe not the video to drop this in, but I came up with a theory that might have to do with Egregore or what it is. Seeing as we've seen it as coral and fungi, 2 wildly different things, I got to thinking that maybe it's just substances and matter directly linked to mass death.
What lead me to this? The crystalline structures found within the pyramids. The first time I saw them I thought to myself, 'Why do all of these look like bodies?' Then the cutscene detailing the origin of The Witness dropped and it started clicking. Those statues are the crystalized remains of it's, and possibly other, species.
Seeing as the pyramids are technology developed by The Witness's species rather than the darkness itself, it got me wondering how it seemed capable of controlling the ships to the extent we have seen it. Which led me back to the Glykon, the Leviathan, Calus, and Egregore.
So I went back through some of your videos trying to find the connection for Egregore and it finally clicked. Carbon. Fungi, at least the fungi we know of, feasts upon dead carbon based lifeforms. Coral, while not a lifeform that feasts on it, is made from carbon scoured from the seafloor by other organisms. What else is made from carbon? Diamonds. This whole time, The Witness has been puppeteering the dead remains of it's civilization. How much you want to bet it's been watching us through those statues.
TL:DR:
The Witness is using the crystalized corpses of it's species as a form of Egregore. Also, Egregore is more than just fungus and coral.
I feel with all the lore we’re looking back on that it’s a very high possibility that Elsie (while possibly not being apart of Maya’s experiments) was an exo that lakshimi had brought on and was able to use the powers just like she could which also explains the vast amount of dark timelines Elsie talks about. On top of that I wonder if maya may have made chio into Elsie (the voices sound faintly similar) but that’s a far stretched thought of mine.
as someone who earned the exotic warlock bond for FWC, I feel nothing anymore.
I'm intrigued by the fact that you didn't mention the multiplication of the Ishtar team in the Vex network. With 227 each of Maya and Chioma running around, it makes sense that Clovis would be confused by the inconsistent behaviour of Maya, but it's interesting to consider which pair of Maya and Chioma were at the Veil doing the experiments that led to Lakshmi-2.1
Maya also mentioned “salvation”, I have a feeling she was communicating with the Witness without realizing it.
The darkness likes preying on scientists. Strong souls but insatiable minds. The darkness offers them secrets to the universe they desire.
With Savathun being invested in the Veil and Neptune, I wonder if she targeted Lakshmi purely for that reason. Either to find out what she knew about the Veil, or to keep her origins hidden from the Witness? Perhaps Lakshmi was a key to passing through the Portal, and Savy got the info from her just before letting her get killed by(Ironically) Vex?
I think that when Lakshmi 2 says "you've seen her, haven't you?" she's talking about Elsie Bray. It would make some sense as both have knowledge of the future and it only stands to reason that they'd know of eachother.
Maya has definitely been curropted by the darkness. She is doing close to the same thing the witness is doing in being so focused on knowing about the future. I feel this should be more in the forefront of the story as this might be instrumental in helping us understand the veil more and its connection to the traveler.
Well, I think we found humanity's Disciple.
Hello from the ending of act 2 of episode echoes
i feel they were made in a way to where they could retroactively intertwine it with concepts that likely were still in the early concept stages once they fleshed it out
I think at this point it’s apparent that something happened to Maya when she was playing around with the vex on Venus. The Maya we know may be some sort of vex infiltrator.
To help with understanding mind forking, it is important to know what forking does in computer systems.
Using the fork() command in Unix uses the concept of parent process and child process.
When the parent process forks, an exact duplicate of its current state and memory is created; the child. The parent then waits and does nothing.
The child process runs like the parent while knowing it's a child. The memory state tells it what it needs to do and when the information is completed returns data at the same time it destroys itself.
Only when the child is gone will the parent wake up and look at what the child has produced in the returned data. Using that information the parent can either be satisfied and end or create new data to have the next child try.
Tl;Dr: Lakshmi performing mind forking is possibly creating an exact duplicate, or child, of her mind, or parent, then proceeds to have the child look into the possible futures.
Once the child is done with its work the data is returned to the parent and then the child disappears.
Possibly a way to prevent insanity since the parent knows it is the original and any information being returned is definitely not real.
Needed this. Thank you once again father Byf
I feel like the concept of "Mind Forking" may be similar to the idea of "code forking" in large programming projects, where it isn't so much a subdivision of a mind, but more a making a copy of a mind in order so that multiple possibilities can be explored and tested, and later the beneficial changes from all "forks" could be merged into a new updated version of the mind, similar to how changes in forked code get re-integrated into a new update.
If this lore was hidden on your radar then imagine this audience who's probably never heard it at all.
I hope you find something back at the lore from season of the splicer That you didn't catch before. This is the kind of stuff that I really love about Destiny. If something like that could have been hidden or flew so far under the radar I am totally here for it
I was waiting for Byf to talk about this 🙌🏼
Lakshmi-2 looking at Chioma Esi with a "I replace you with myself"
Maya Sundaresh is also connected to the Insight Terminus strike on Nessus: After defeating the boss, Ghost gives some exposition on Otzot and OXA--a prediction engine based on Vex tech. Several months ago, Evaze posted a video based on connections that one of his followers made. Most startling was a theory that links OXA, and an alternate name for it---OXTA-- and Taox, a Krill tutor to the 3 Hive sisters of the Osmium dynasty, and an anagram of OXTA.
It's funny that you describe Lakshmi as "politically ruthless". Shohreh Aghdashloo who voiced her also played a very "politically ruthless" character in The Expanse.
As a relative newb to Destiny. The theories behind Mind forking sounds similar to how quantum computers work. A bunch of different bits all seeking all possible outcomes to find the answer
Not strictly related but I definitely remember a lore tab I think you covered Byf, of Lakshmi conversing with Namrask, formerly Akileuks, about how she recognises him from when he sacked golden age London.
Remember what happen after season of the seraph? When Rasputin talked about Neptune? He said that there was something called the veil and that somebody tried to keep the file’s hidden
A little on "Mind Forking": from a computer science perspective, "forking" is a process that creates a copy of a object that is bound to the original in some fashion. As an example, most browsers fork off extra processes for each tab or task, but each one of those forked processes is still ultimately subject to the original process. What's also interesting, is that in most cases where forking is used, the forked object is completely mutable, so it can be modified to a degree that would make it almost entirely different from the original.
With that in mind, Mind Forking is likely something along the same lines as what Osiris was capable of in the Infinite Forest: the ability to make copies of oneself that are indistinguishable from the original, capable of independent thought and action. Each copy would react to situations in almost the same manner as the original, so they would make effective probes. Since the future sight machine that Lakshmi was using only sent one's consciousness, there is a possibility that she was able to spin off a potentially infinite number of copies of herself to explore a massive number of possible futures. The only question that I would have is about what happened when each copy was re-merged with the original. We know human memory can house a staggering amount of information, but I wonder how her exo mind was able to process/compress/store the experiences of millions of versions of herself.
I'm pretty sure the "She" that Lakshimi is talking about is actually the Exo Stranger. Isn't Elsie actually tied to the FWC?
22:35 “The Number” dropping for you here was a cheeky little FWC touch haha!
I'm borrowing lore from a separate game based on the Takeshi Kovacs novels by Richard K. Morgan, but "forking" is most likely making several copies of one's self (if one's mind has been converted into digital data) for various tasks. It would make sense how Lakshmi-2 would've been able to look into multiple timeliness using that technique .
here’s the byf video i’ve been waiting for bc i cant be assed to do veil containment every week
you actually just load straight into the room where the terminal is and can use it straight away if you've already done the main quest for it. Still a bit out of the way though
It’s literally just an audio message you listen to
@@Ewbieprobably doesn’t know about he node because its so hidden on the map
@@thebestpilot7 Yeahh it really needs to be moved somewhere people actually look lol
@@Ewbie i know i just can’t be assed lmao
I remember the one strike at the end they talk about Msund-12. maybe Lakshmi was just one of her copies and she had many more
FWC from day 1, and never left them. FWC until i die.
Exo Stranger from D1 is Elizabeth Bray and it's canon that not many people have seen her
21:45 I think she's supposedly talking about Elsie the Stranger. It'd be cool if it was referring to Maya, but Lakshmi did speak about the Stranger in some dialogue, but mostly in the Taken King quest to get the No Time To Explain, where we have to go into the Vault of Glass and get Atheon's eye and the Paradox quest where we can retrieve Praedyth's Ghost.
Bro, I wish we get a Mission during the fall of London. The full grimdark.
i pretty sure she knew otherwise she would have been lakshmi-3 when we knew her at the tower. if so this is crazy, all those years at the tower and she knew all the secrets neomuna, the veil. It makes us have to re-examine every thing she did right up to her death in season of the splicer.
The Vex hid Neomuna from everyone according to an earlier entry. If that wasn't an accidental thing, then that's likely a BIG link to explore. Especially since they were doing the same thing to The Last City during Splicer.
I just realized from watching you video midway... What if Savathun was Maya Sundaresh the same way she took over Osiris? This would explain why Maya no longer treated Chioma Esi the same way like "Osiris" did with Saint-14? It would also explain the Veil being on Neptune and how Savathun got it there.
Nice theory
I would kind of like to see a video with an overview of Maya Sundaresh once the Veil Containment logs wrap up. Every time I see that name pop up, it's Trouble.
What if Lakshmi isn't really dead but abandoned her body during the vex attack and is in the vex network with Asher?
Y‘know there is a possibility Asher will or maybe has already encountered a Maya copy in the network
The Scribetrace Ghost shell seems to imply Asher is dead now or at least for me it does. Also fun fact Praedyth's met a bunch of the Maya clones in the Aspect lore book
When Lakshmi - 2 mentioned the line ''From the way you're looking at me... I can tell you've seen her too'' I IMMEDIATELY thought about Elsie Bray/ The Exo Stranger.
The theory that comes to my mind, is in relation to all the exos used in relation to the veil, and Ishtar study on Venus, black garden copy, radiolara fluid aka ‘clarity’ in both exos and vex, and then the scene ‘their all dead, gone’… snow balls to this: the exos are a fragmented copy of vex, but they in a ‘paracusal’ way, the source of vex via the vail, or exos stage one, vex stage two evolution.
The traveler makes Light bearing guardians. The veil… makes the vex.
The yen and the Yang.
I'M HERE AFTER THE LEAKS MAYA SUNDARESH WILL probably be the main villain or vendor for Echoes
Thanks for being the necessary third party keeping me interested in this awesome saga Byf
Usually there are “coincidental” connections between old and new lore, but stuff like this really makes you wonder if there was more of a plan than we give bungie credit for.
this may also explain Maya's involvement with the device in the Insight Terminus strike.
I had no idea that it was down there....thanks Byf!
Im a simple guardian I see fwc and lackshmi lore I click immediately.
I love how in depth destiny side stories are
So ‘Clarity’ is simply the emergence of consciousness? That would make sense why it would come alongside the Veil. Paracausal forces can likely spontaneously cause the universe to become self aware. And so it could be described as ‘The Universe looking upon it’s form with Clarity’
I always thought the “you’ve seen her” comment from Lakshmei was in reference to Elsie/The Stranger since they’re from the future and likely saw something most don’t approve if